Author Topic: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States  (Read 4548 times)

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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2014, 08:11:05 pm »
Mercantilism died in the 18th century.

The central idea of Mercantilism was that "maximising net exports is the best route to national prosperity", along with the accumulation of bullion, or "bullionism", the idea that if one nation had more bullion than the other, it was better off.

We import more than we export, and while we still hold more bullion than any other country, Mercantilism requires that both sides of the equation be observed.


agreed that mercantilism died a long time ago; at a glance, I would posit that the terrible effects of what I'll call the tariff wars and the great depression largely killed off enthusiasm for mercantilism.

That being said, I would also note that mercantilism is very different from corporativism, and that insofar as one wants to use the Obuttocks administration as an example, it is a good illustration of emergent socialist corporativism, not mercantilism.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2014, 08:15:18 pm »
What you describe, Oceander, is National Socialism.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2014, 08:18:00 pm »

"... communism brooks no other rival power bases and has only one class: the proletariat."


Great response, but I vehemently disagree with that sentence.

Communism may argue that only one class exists, but there are in fact two classes.

The proletariat makes up 99.9% of the population, but the nation is ruled by the remaining 0.01%, made up entirely of members of the government an the government's bureaucratic substructure, 
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2014, 08:19:31 pm »
What you describe, Oceander, is National Socialism.

Ultimately, yes, it can lead to that.  However, it doesn't simply reduce to that and, I think, there is a crucial element missing here - nationalism; Obama clearly has no great love for the US as a nation, neither do most of the democrat party heavies (or their large financial supporters), so I don't think that element will gel here.  That being said, the purported differences between national socialism and socialism per se are more fig-leaves and window dressing than they are substantive.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2014, 08:23:31 pm »
Ultimately, yes, it can lead to that.  However, it doesn't simply reduce to that and, I think, there is a crucial element missing here - nationalism; Obama clearly has no great love for the US as a nation, neither do most of the democrat party heavies (or their large financial supporters), so I don't think that element will gel here.  That being said, the purported differences between national socialism and socialism per se are more fig-leaves and window dressing than they are substantive.

They had no love for the nation they inherited...they would likely feel very differently about the transmogrified nation they are creating out of it.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2014, 08:41:11 pm »
They had no love for the nation they inherited...they would likely feel very differently about the transmogrified nation they are creating out of it.

Hitler loved not the Germany that existed at the time of his rise to power, but the greater Germany that he would craft from it.

I posted the article I link to below in forums back in 2008, and I was ridiculed. The people ridiculing me could only associate the world "Fuehrer" with Hitler, death camps and ovens... "that could never happen here" they said.

A Fuehrer, a charismatic leader, a leader of a nation and its people (as opposed to the American concept where a President is a servant of the people) can arise anywhere where a cut of personality can exist, and that is everywhere.

In Obama, we have a potential Fuehrer.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2014, 09:01:13 pm »
Hitler loved not the Germany that existed at the time of his rise to power, but the greater Germany that he would craft from it.

I posted the article I link to below in forums back in 2008, and I was ridiculed. The people ridiculing me could only associate the world "Fuehrer" with Hitler, death camps and ovens... "that could never happen here" they said.

A Fuehrer, a charismatic leader, a leader of a nation and its people (as opposed to the American concept where a President is a servant of the people) can arise anywhere where a cut of personality can exist, and that is everywhere.

In Obama, we have a potential Fuehrer.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

I agree that a cult of personality can engender a socialism similar to that of national socialism.  What distinguishes these forms of socialism from nonadjectival socialism is the general lack of an Us and a Them based on some inherent characteristic.  The worshipped personality is almost the definition of an inherent characteristic and the belief, or nonbelief, in the infallibility of that personality the defining characteristic that distinguishes Us from Them.

Offline Scottftlc

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2014, 09:13:36 pm »
There is already an Us and Them developing strongly in America...US are those that believe that traditional religiion in this nation (Christian) is the source of all forms of discrimination - sexual, racial and economic.  Them are those that still remain loyal to traditional religious structures.
Well, George Lewis told the Englishman, the Italian and the Jew
You can't open your mind, boys, to every conceivable point of view

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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2014, 09:26:24 pm »
There is already an Us and Them developing strongly in America...US are those that believe that traditional religiion in this nation (Christian) is the source of all forms of discrimination - sexual, racial and economic.  Them are those that still remain loyal to traditional religious structures.

that's not the only us/them axis in the US

Offline massadvj

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2014, 09:33:53 pm »
that's not the only us/them axis in the US

Very true.  The Democrat playbook depends on several different axes of "us/them," including:

Male/Female
Rich/Poor
White/Minority
Young/Old
Religious/Non-Religious
Taxpayers/Tex Beneficiaries

Any others?

Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2014, 09:34:53 pm »
Very true.  The Democrat playbook depends on several different axes of "us/them," including:

Male/Female
Rich/Poor
White/Minority
Young/Old
Religious/Non-Religious
Taxpayers/Tex Beneficiaries

Any others?

yeah.  what's a "Tex Beneficiary"?  Someone who gets to live in Texas?  :silly:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 09:35:13 pm by Oceander »

Offline massadvj

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2014, 09:46:50 pm »
yeah.  what's a "Tex Beneficiary"?  Someone who gets to live in Texas?  :silly:

OK, smartypants.  I'll have you know I consider myself a Tex beneficiary by virtue of the fact that I married a Texan.

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2014, 09:54:21 pm »
Very true.  The Democrat playbook depends on several different axes of "us/them," including:

Male/Female
Rich/Poor
White/Minority
Young/Old
Religious/Non-Religious
Taxpayers/Tex Beneficiaries

Any others?

Sure!

White collar/blue collar
Ivy league educated/other private institution educated/state educated/self educated

The list is endless really but you have identified all of the big ones I think.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2014, 09:55:23 pm »
OK, smartypants.  I'll have you know I consider myself a Tex beneficiary by virtue of the fact that I married a Texan.

I know, and I'm truly envious.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2014, 01:03:51 am »
There is already an Us and Them developing strongly in America...US are those that believe that traditional religiion in this nation (Christian) is the source of all forms of discrimination - sexual, racial and economic.  Them are those that still remain loyal to traditional religious structures.

It is.  It's a Christian Businessman's Association.  It's the fish symbol in an ad or sign in a window.  It's also the best way for a grifter to take the last dollar from a simpleton.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2014, 01:25:06 am »
Oceander wrote above:
[[ Bah.  It won't fall to communism, it'll fall - to adopt your term - to European, specifically French, style socialism.  Communism as such no longer exists as a dominant force anywhere, other than, perhaps, Cuba. ]]

There is something afoot -- as bad as "communism" or worse -- that you overlook.

That is the emergence of the "techno-police" state -- the ability of the government to surveil (and sooner or later, to control) more and more facets of an individual's life.

From NSA monitoring of our communications, to GPA-assisted controls on our vehicles, to a record of every individual's financial transactions, right down to what store and what was purchased, the "government grip" will slowly encircle freedom, as does a boa constrictor its prey.

Combine this with a regulatory establishment that has transformed itself into an insatiable monster, issuing thousands of new "regulations" that restrict and control how we live, what we can buy, etc.

And add to that a governing elite that has forgotten the concept of "Western Civilization", with an everything goes attitude that seems to have forgotten that a culture is supposed to be protected and defended against outsiders who would usurp it in favor of their own.

And finally, consider the worldwide putsch of islam which makes it quite clear that its goal is to replace the dar al-harb (in The West) with dar al-islam.

I can almost see a "new dark ages" somewhere up ahead.
Luckily I may already be gone when it arrives.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2014, 01:43:22 am »
On a tangent, the obamacare will allow people to do things they've always wanted to do and near a possible 60% unemployment rate but "revolution" by 30%.  Well, people forget, the series of professions, up to the modern day, were outgrowths of leisure time, not the other way round.
When people became effective hunters and gatherers to the point of understanding domesticating livestock and forward.  This leisure time expansion what is next?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2014, 03:14:07 am »
Oceander wrote above:
[[ Bah.  It won't fall to communism, it'll fall - to adopt your term - to European, specifically French, style socialism.  Communism as such no longer exists as a dominant force anywhere, other than, perhaps, Cuba. ]]

There is something afoot -- as bad as "communism" or worse -- that you overlook.

That is the emergence of the "techno-police" state -- the ability of the government to surveil (and sooner or later, to control) more and more facets of an individual's life.

From NSA monitoring of our communications, to GPA-assisted controls on our vehicles, to a record of every individual's financial transactions, right down to what store and what was purchased, the "government grip" will slowly encircle freedom, as does a boa constrictor its prey.

Combine this with a regulatory establishment that has transformed itself into an insatiable monster, issuing thousands of new "regulations" that restrict and control how we live, what we can buy, etc.

And add to that a governing elite that has forgotten the concept of "Western Civilization", with an everything goes attitude that seems to have forgotten that a culture is supposed to be protected and defended against outsiders who would usurp it in favor of their own.

And finally, consider the worldwide putsch of islam which makes it quite clear that its goal is to replace the dar al-harb (in The West) with dar al-islam.

I can almost see a "new dark ages" somewhere up ahead.
Luckily I may already be gone when it arrives.

On that I completely agree.  I think we're at the precipice of the age of the uber police state, in which the panopticon can for the first time be fully implemented.  Modern technology has the power to faciliate totalitarian control to a degree and a scale that have never been seen before in the entire existence of the human species.



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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2014, 03:57:29 am »
On that I completely agree.  I think we're at the precipice of the age of the uber police state, in which the panopticon can for the first time be fully implemented.  Modern technology has the power to faciliate totalitarian control to a degree and a scale that have never been seen before in the entire existence of the human species.

Yep....all that's missing is flying taxis.       
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2014, 04:02:17 am »
Yep....all that's missing is flying taxis.       

speaking of which, some cabs in NYC are equipped with photo equipment - as are many car service cars - i wonder if the NSA's gotten access to those data sources yet?

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2014, 04:03:00 am »
Yep....all that's missing is flying taxis.     

You didn't do a whole lot of partying in the '80s, did you?
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2014, 04:04:59 am »
You didn't do a whole lot of partying in the '80s, did you?

:bigsilly:

Offline olde north church

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2014, 02:35:16 pm »
On that I completely agree.  I think we're at the precipice of the age of the uber police state, in which the panopticon can for the first time be fully implemented.  Modern technology has the power to faciliate totalitarian control to a degree and a scale that have never been seen before in the entire existence of the human species.

There is always away around it.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2014, 03:44:59 pm »
There is always away around it.

In the Age of the Drone and the Ubiquitous Camera, it's becoming increasingly difficult to evade the all-seeing eye of the State. We are also approaching a time when everything not forbidden is compulsory, as the America many of us once knew recedes ever faster in the rear-view mirror.
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Oceander

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Re: Elections can't fix the "fundamental transformation" of the United States
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2014, 06:36:13 pm »
There is always away around it.

true enough, but the costs of successfully getting around it are so high that most people simply won't be able to put up with the dent it puts in their ordinary lives, so they'll simply surrender to it, put on their government-approved rose-colored glasses and tell themselves that it doesn't matter and anyways it doesn't exist.  A little like the restaurant scene in the movie Brazil where the diners all stare at cards showing pictures of what they're supposed to be eating, while what they're actually eating bears little resemblance to those pictures.