Author Topic: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism  (Read 764 times)

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Offline aligncare

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Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« on: February 14, 2014, 10:09:09 PM »
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 10:22:56 PM »
 goopo

Offline PzLdr

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2014, 07:46:24 AM »
And since we're painting with broad brushes, Libertarianism leads to anarchy.  :smokin:
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 08:01:28 AM »
Nothing anarchistic about the Constitution. A pen and a phone? That's anarchy.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 08:46:07 AM »
Hayek is correct about conservatism.  If you go back to the roots of conservative thinking (Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk) you find that the key tenet of its philosophy is preservation of the institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization.  This, of course, includes religious institutions, the constitution, etc.  But there is very little in the philosphical underpinnings of conservatism to support free markets and property rights, except for the fact that these things were in place at the time the philosophy was developed, and therefore were worthy of inclusion on the list of the things to be preserved.

Nowadays a good case can be made that social programs actually qualify as "institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization."  And so conservatives talk of "saving" this or that social program with more capable management, as opposed to tearing it down.  I expect that in 20 years conservatives will be campaigning on the platform of saving Obamacare for future generations.

It's a conundrum for libertarians because in a democracy you can't get your way without a plurality, and so it's necessary to coalesce with these people.  But there are critical differences.  And please don't tell me we are not a democracy.  I know we are not SUPPOSED to be a democracy, but the reality of the USA in the present day is that we are more of a democracy than a republic, so get your head out of the sand.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 09:00:13 AM »


You need masterminds and social engineers, like Obama, the most intelligent man to ever occupy the office. (Y'all recognize sarcasm when you see it, don't you?)
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 09:13:10 AM »
Hayek is correct about conservatism.  If you go back to the roots of conservative thinking (Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk) you find that the key tenet of its philosophy is preservation of the institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization.  This, of course, includes religious institutions, the constitution, etc.  But there is very little in the philosphical underpinnings of conservatism to support free markets and property rights, except for the fact that these things were in place at the time the philosophy was developed, and therefore were worthy of inclusion on the list of the things to be preserved.

Nowadays a good case can be made that social programs actually qualify as "institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization."  And so conservatives talk of "saving" this or that social program with more capable management, as opposed to tearing it down.  I expect that in 20 years conservatives will be campaigning on the platform of saving Obamacare for future generations.

It's a conundrum for libertarians because in a democracy you can't get your way without a plurality, and so it's necessary to coalesce with these people.  But there are critical differences.  And please don't tell me we are not a democracy.  I know we are not SUPPOSED to be a democracy, but the reality of the USA in the present day is that we are more of a democracy than a republic, so get your head out of the sand.

Well said my friend! Well said indeed! The truth of the matter is that Free Market Capitalism died in the USA a LONG time ago. The REPUBLIC we were given buy the founders was long ago killed by Whigs and 19th century Republicans (not the same animal as 21st century Republicans) and turned in to a Mercantile empire!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 09:17:45 AM by Bigun »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 09:25:11 AM »
Hayek is correct about conservatism.  If you go back to the roots of conservative thinking (Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk) you find that the key tenet of its philosophy is preservation of the institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization.  This, of course, includes religious institutions, the constitution, etc.  But there is very little in the philosphical underpinnings of conservatism to support free markets and property rights, except for the fact that these things were in place at the time the philosophy was developed, and therefore were worthy of inclusion on the list of the things to be preserved.

Nowadays a good case can be made that social programs actually qualify as "institutions that have stood the test of time in building our civilization."  And so conservatives talk of "saving" this or that social program with more capable management, as opposed to tearing it down.  I expect that in 20 years conservatives will be campaigning on the platform of saving Obamacare for future generations.

It's a conundrum for libertarians because in a democracy you can't get your way without a plurality, and so it's necessary to coalesce with these people.  But there are critical differences.  And please don't tell me we are not a democracy.  I know we are not SUPPOSED to be a democracy, but the reality of the USA in the present day is that we are more of a democracy than a republic, so get your head out of the sand.

I think where SoCons have gone wrong, is that rather than preserving those institutions, they want to use the tenets of those institutions as bulwarks against societal changes, and societal change is inevitable where freedom and free choice are promoted as virtues. You can't tell me that I am free, so long as my ability to act free doesn't extend itself outside those boundaries that you have set in place for me. 

Of course, I am discussing liberty, not license or debauchery, but to many SoCons, one person's act of personal liberty, since it flies at the face of the tenets of those tried and true institutions that "have stood the test of time in building our civilization", my act of liberty becomes an act of debauchery.

The thing about these time-tested institutions that conservatism seeks to protect, is that it always disfavors one very important time-tested institution that has stood the test of time in building Western civilization even more so than all the others. Societal change.

No institution has withstood the force of societal change. Not the Church (Martin Luther was a radical liberal), not government (Kings and Queens are figureheads) not industry, land ownership, marriage... nothing, and those changes in turn are the cornerstones of the rise of Western civilization. That, to me, paints a very positive image of the notion of societal change.

Look around the world and find those places where institutions rule over men.

Afghanistan?

Pakistan?

Iran?

The thin line that we need to walk, is one that allows institutions to exist and exert their influence over the hearts and minds of the people, but not muscle natural societal changes into oblivion because the changes are outside the founding tenets of those institutions.

Here's one of my quandaries as a freedom-loving neolibertarian.

Government cannot push the Church into performing same-sex marriages, but religion cannot stop the government from performing same-sex marriages outside the church.

The problem with that is that neither side will be content with that compromise.
 

Offline massadvj

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 09:35:01 AM »
I think where SoCons have gone wrong, is that rather than preserving those institutions, they want to use the tenets of those institutions as bulwarks against societal changes, and societal change is inevitable where freedom and free choice are promoted as virtues. You can't tell me that I am free, so long as my ability to act free doesn't extend itself outside those boundaries that you have set in place for me. 

Of course, I am discussing liberty, not license or debauchery, but to many SoCons, one person's act of personal liberty, since it flies at the face of the tenets of those tried and true institutions that "have stood the test of time in building our civilization", my act of liberty becomes an act of debauchery.

The thing about these time-tested institutions that conservatism seeks to protect, is that it always disfavors one very important time-tested institution that has stood the test of time in building Western civilization even more so than all the others. Societal change.

No institution has withstood the force of societal change. Not the Church (Martin Luther was a radical liberal), not government (Kings and Queens are figureheads) not industry, land ownership, marriage... nothing, and those changes in turn are the cornerstones of the rise of Western civilization. That, to me, paints a very positive image of the notion of societal change.

Look around the world and find those places where institutions rule over men.

Afghanistan?

Pakistan?

Iran?

The thin line that we need to walk, is one that allows institutions to exist and exert their influence over the hearts and minds of the people, but not muscle natural societal changes into oblivion because the changes are outside the founding tenets of those institutions.

Here's one of my quandaries as a freedom-loving neolibertarian.

Government cannot push the Church into performing same-sex marriages, but religion cannot stop the government from performing same-sex marriages outside the church.

The problem with that is that neither side will be content with that compromise.
 

Well-reasoned.

But you are wrong about government pushing the Church into same sex marriage.  The Church will evolve, sooner or later.  Socialist populism is irrepressible. 
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 09:42:24 AM »
Re-labeling Democrats and Republicans as Liberals and Conservatives does nothing to repair the problems we are facing today.  The point is that Party Politics are what dominate our Government, and that is a direct result of dis-assembling the Checks and Balances in the Constitution.  Progressives a Century ago used the power of the uninformed voter of that day to rationalize the passing and implementation of the 17th Amendment, which removed the several States from the Checks and Balances.  At the time, the promise was to turn over the US Senate "to the People", when in fact control of both Houses of Congress were turned over to the two major political parties.

If the States were still in control via appointment of the State's US Senators by the legislatures, our Country would look radically different than it does today.  Massadvj is exactly right...we have transitioned from a Representative Republic into a vitriolic Democracy, which is exactly what the founders feared would happen.  Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against Democracy can be found in a 10 minute conversation with the average voter".  How right he was. 

There is no end to the number of special minority groups that require permanent privileges, or even formerly abhorrent behavior that is now classed as a "disability" requiring even more "help".  The pendulum has swung from "Majority Rule" to ever increasing heavy handed actions to force small minority "values" on the majority regardless of the cost.  We have spent trillions supposedly fighting a "war on poverty" that has done nothing but permanently establish an under-class of "disadvantaged" that are never satisfied, have no motivation to take care of themselves or contribute anything positive back into society, and who would happily watch the rest of the country go straight to hell as long as they get theirs.

Whether you call yourself a Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Progressive or Libertarian, those political groups are the problem.  Party politics, regardless of the party, is what has brought us to the brink, and as long as we continue to send the same people back to Congress, and continue to play the same party politics, then we will continue to circle the drain.


Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 09:46:34 AM »
Well-reasoned.

But you are wrong about government pushing the Church into same sex marriage.  The Church will evolve, sooner or later.  Socialist populism is irrepressible.

I have absolutely no problem with the church naturally evolving into that position in reaction to natural societal forces. Government coercion is the problem with me.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2014, 09:53:15 AM »
I have absolutely no problem with the church naturally evolving into that position in reaction to natural societal forces. Government coercion is the problem with me.

Many libertarians argue that the law is merely institutionalization of majority consensus.
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2014, 09:54:57 AM »
Re-labeling Democrats and Republicans as Liberals and Conservatives does nothing to repair the problems we are facing today.  The point is that Party Politics are what dominate our Government, and that is a direct result of dis-assembling the Checks and Balances in the Constitution.  Progressives a Century ago used the power of the uninformed voter of that day to rationalize the passing and implementation of the 17th Amendment, which removed the several States from the Checks and Balances.  At the time, the promise was to turn over the US Senate "to the People", when in fact control of both Houses of Congress were turned over to the two major political parties.

If the States were still in control via appointment of the State's US Senators by the legislatures, our Country would look radically different than it does today.  Massadvj is exactly right...we have transitioned from a Representative Republic into a vitriolic Democracy, which is exactly what the founders feared would happen.  Winston Churchill once said that "The best argument against Democracy can be found in a 10 minute conversation with the average voter".  How right he was. 

There is no end to the number of special minority groups that require permanent privileges, or even formerly abhorrent behavior that is now classed as a "disability" requiring even more "help".  The pendulum has swung from "Majority Rule" to ever increasing heavy handed actions to force small minority "values" on the majority regardless of the cost.  We have spent trillions supposedly fighting a "war on poverty" that has done nothing but permanently establish an under-class of "disadvantaged" that are never satisfied, have no motivation to take care of themselves or contribute anything positive back into society, and who would happily watch the rest of the country go straight to hell as long as they get theirs.

Whether you call yourself a Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Progressive or Libertarian, those political groups are the problem.  Party politics, regardless of the party, is what has brought us to the brink, and as long as we continue to send the same people back to Congress, and continue to play the same party politics, then we will continue to circle the drain.

BRAVO!! Very well said and absolutely true as well!

Offline Oceander

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2014, 09:58:40 AM »
I think where SoCons have gone wrong, is that rather than preserving those institutions, they want to use the tenets of those institutions as bulwarks against societal changes, and societal change is inevitable where freedom and free choice are promoted as virtues. You can't tell me that I am free, so long as my ability to act free doesn't extend itself outside those boundaries that you have set in place for me. 

Of course, I am discussing liberty, not license or debauchery, but to many SoCons, one person's act of personal liberty, since it flies at the face of the tenets of those tried and true institutions that "have stood the test of time in building our civilization", my act of liberty becomes an act of debauchery.

The thing about these time-tested institutions that conservatism seeks to protect, is that it always disfavors one very important time-tested institution that has stood the test of time in building Western civilization even more so than all the others. Societal change.

No institution has withstood the force of societal change. Not the Church (Martin Luther was a radical liberal), not government (Kings and Queens are figureheads) not industry, land ownership, marriage... nothing, and those changes in turn are the cornerstones of the rise of Western civilization. That, to me, paints a very positive image of the notion of societal change.

Look around the world and find those places where institutions rule over men.

Afghanistan?

Pakistan?

Iran?

The thin line that we need to walk, is one that allows institutions to exist and exert their influence over the hearts and minds of the people, but not muscle natural societal changes into oblivion because the changes are outside the founding tenets of those institutions.

Here's one of my quandaries as a freedom-loving neolibertarian.

Government cannot push the Church into performing same-sex marriages, but religion cannot stop the government from performing same-sex marriages outside the church.

The problem with that is that neither side will be content with that compromise.
 


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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2014, 10:10:51 AM »
Many libertarians argue that the law is merely institutionalization of majority consensus.

True and acceptable.

But as Chieftain pointed out, right now we seem to be in a stage of misguided/fabricated societal development where we are "ruled" by minority consensus.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2014, 10:22:03 AM »


Love him or hate him he's right as rain on this one!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2014, 10:25:14 AM »
Whether you call yourself a Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal, Progressive or Libertarian, those political groups are the problem.  Party politics, regardless of the party, is what has brought us to the brink, and as long as we continue to send the same people back to Congress, and continue to play the same party politics, then we will continue to circle the drain.

I must be doing something right.

I piss everybody off at one point or another.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2014, 10:31:02 AM »
I must be doing something right.

I piss everybody off at one point or another.

good point; as i see it, the point of politics, indeed, of any negotiation, is to make all sides equally disappointed, but less disappointed than they would have been absent the negotiation.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2014, 10:50:14 AM »
Love him or hate him he's right as rain on this one!

I think that sometime between spending time on the streets of SoFla fighting for GWB's election in 2000, and that time later when I found myself defending his many acts of runaway government expansionism, I stopped looking at politicians/political parties as righteous gladiators, saviors, or even leaders and began questioning everything, and everyone.

I don't believe in politicians, and I have good reason not to. Generally speaking, they're liars.

Sometimes by design, and sometimes by simple accident of the human condition, but when your job description begins with the idea that in order for you to even have the job you're seeking, you have to say whatever it takes to say in order to please as many people as possible so that they will vote for you, you trend to fall into Decepticon land.


Offline aligncare

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2014, 12:17:16 AM »
Just catching up. Thoughtful exploration of liberty - what's left of it.
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Conservatism And Liberalism Both Lead To Totalitarianism
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2014, 12:34:59 AM »


I don't believe in politicians, and I have good reason not to. Generally speaking, they're liars.



This country would be a whole lot better if everyone looked at them all in this manner and held their feet to the fire every single day of the week.  McCain, McConnell, etc., were all too comfy in a pre-internet world where they could run the senate like a country club and the electorate only turned up every six years to return them to the country club. They don't know how to deal with this new world where there is more than the NYT's feeding us mi-information and the voters were loathe to find out what was really going on behind those hallowed doors of congress.... today we have people who report what is going on and they are reeling as a result.  Oh they are plenty happy to have conservatives show up and vote - as long as it is for THEM, otherwise we are all supposed to sit down and shut up and not be seen or heard from.


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