Author Topic: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do  (Read 871 times)

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SPQR

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Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« on: February 12, 2014, 03:43:47 AM »
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 03:44:21 AM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2014, 10:23:39 AM »
You don't think we have methods to stop the disruption?  Whether they are used is a different story.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online Oceander

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2014, 11:35:22 AM »
You don't think we have methods to stop the disruption?  Whether they are used is a different story.

Do tell.  A ballistic missile launched by an Iranian sub or ship in international waters (at least 3 miles off the US coast), could attain at least 100km of altitude above a point at or inside the US coastline in 3 minutes or less (depending on how big a kick it gets in the boost phase).  If all they really cared about was smacking the East Coast really, really hard - say from Richmond, VA up to Boston, with a straightline distance of about 474 miles - they'd only need to get a missile about 30 miles up in altitude to do so.  Iran has already sent naval forces near the East Coast, so they can get there; that only leaves the question of whether the US could spot - and stop - a launch intended to get the missile only about 30 or 40 miles up before the warhead goes off and generates an EMP.

SPQR

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2014, 08:28:49 PM »
Do tell.  A ballistic missile launched by an Iranian sub or ship in international waters (at least 3 miles off the US coast), could attain at least 100km of altitude above a point at or inside the US coastline in 3 minutes or less (depending on how big a kick it gets in the boost phase).  If all they really cared about was smacking the East Coast really, really hard - say from Richmond, VA up to Boston, with a straightline distance of about 474 miles - they'd only need to get a missile about 30 miles up in altitude to do so.  Iran has already sent naval forces near the East Coast, so they can get there; that only leaves the question of whether the US could spot - and stop - a launch intended to get the missile only about 30 or 40 miles up before the warhead goes off and generates an EMP.

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Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2014, 08:34:48 PM »
Aahh, it's nothing more than "Nuclear Winter" conjecture.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

SPQR

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2014, 08:41:57 PM »
Aahh, it's nothing more than "Nuclear Winter" conjecture.


With so much soot from fires and fallout its a possibility. The British did a study in a government study titled "Doomsday" by Stan Openshaw on this possibility. But its still a theory. The only way to test the theory out is to have a actual nuclear war.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 08:58:18 PM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2014, 09:30:39 PM »

With so much soot from fires and fallout its a possibility. The British did a study in a government study titled "Doomsday" by Stan Openshaw on this possibility. But its still a theory. The only way to test the theory out is to have a actual nuclear war.

It's funny, one of my teachers told me he would like to survive a SHTF scenario for the same reason I would, just to see the aftermath.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

SPQR

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2014, 09:33:49 PM »
It's funny, one of my teachers told me he would like to survive a SHTF scenario for the same reason I would, just to see the aftermath.

I do not think the aftermath will be pleasant. no water, no santiation, no electricity not including the short term and long term radiation effects. Not including no hospitals. Diseases like dysentery and typhoid running rampant. Nobody left to bury or burn the dead because lack of fuel. I guess the living would envy the dead. Essentially we will be back in the Stone Age.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 09:41:14 PM by SPQR »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2014, 10:10:50 PM »
Do tell.  A ballistic missile launched by an Iranian sub or ship in international waters (at least 3 miles off the US coast), could attain at least 100km of altitude above a point at or inside the US coastline in 3 minutes or less (depending on how big a kick it gets in the boost phase).  If all they really cared about was smacking the East Coast really, really hard - say from Richmond, VA up to Boston, with a straightline distance of about 474 miles - they'd only need to get a missile about 30 miles up in altitude to do so.  Iran has already sent naval forces near the East Coast, so they can get there; that only leaves the question of whether the US could spot - and stop - a launch intended to get the missile only about 30 or 40 miles up before the warhead goes off and generates an EMP.

30 or 40 miles up isn't high enough.  The atmosphere itself would absorb most of the EMP and dampen it out.  You have to be able to lob the nuke well above the atmosphere, 300 to 400 miles before it is high enough to generate a Compton effect over a large enough area of the atmosphere to do any significant damage.

The Iranians are not capable of firing a missile warhead of any kind that high.  Nor do they have a nuclear weapon to put on such a missile even if they wanted to. This whole thing is Chicken Little BS and it originated with that attention whore Glenn Beck and his radio/intarwebs empire.

moving on....

 :smokin:

Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2014, 11:13:26 PM »
30 or 40 miles up isn't high enough.  The atmosphere itself would absorb most of the EMP and dampen it out.  You have to be able to lob the nuke well above the atmosphere, 300 to 400 miles before it is high enough to generate a Compton effect over a large enough area of the atmosphere to do any significant damage.

The Iranians are not capable of firing a missile warhead of any kind that high.  Nor do they have a nuclear weapon to put on such a missile even if they wanted to. This whole thing is Chicken Little BS and it originated with that attention whore Glenn Beck and his radio/intarwebs empire.

moving on....

 :smokin:

And I thought, wouldn't the sub doing the launching be in range of the EMP and suffer the effects?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online Oceander

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2014, 11:25:41 PM »
30 or 40 miles up isn't high enough.  The atmosphere itself would absorb most of the EMP and dampen it out.  You have to be able to lob the nuke well above the atmosphere, 300 to 400 miles before it is high enough to generate a Compton effect over a large enough area of the atmosphere to do any significant damage.

The Iranians are not capable of firing a missile warhead of any kind that high.  Nor do they have a nuclear weapon to put on such a missile even if they wanted to. This whole thing is Chicken Little BS and it originated with that attention whore Glenn Beck and his radio/intarwebs empire.

moving on....

 :smokin:

Nope.  High altitude tests generated EMP at 250 miles altitude, and it is possible to generate EMP at much lower altitudes.  Also, small fission weapons are more efficient at producing EMP than large thermonuclear devices.  For example, from the wikipedia article on Nuclear electromagnetic pulse
Quote
During Operation Fishbowl, EMP disruptions were suffered aboard KC-135 photographic aircraft flying 300 km (190 mi) from the 410 kt (1,700 TJ) detonations at 48 and 95 km (30 and 59 mi) burst altitudes.[33]  The vital electronics were less sophisticated than today's and the aircraft was able to land safely.

[33] Glasstone, Samuel (March 29, 2006). "EMP radiation from nuclear space bursts in 1962". "Subsequent tests with lower yield devices [410 kt Kingfish at 95 km altitude, 410 kt Bluegill at 48 km altitude, and 7 kt Checkmate at 147 km] produced electronic upsets on an instrumentation aircraft [presumably the KC-135 that filmed the tests from above the clouds?] that was approximately 300 kilometers away from the detonations."

Further, from the article cited above:
Quote
Thus, low yield bombs at somewhat lower altitudes than 400 km can produce peak EMP fields that exceed those from the 1962 high altitude thermonuclear tests, while still affecting vast areas.

400km is about 248 miles.

This image from the Glasstone article further indicates that EMP can be generated at much lower altitudes:


Notably, both graphs begin with a Height of Burst ("HOB") at 50km, or 31 miles.

So, with all due respect, you are quite wrong on the altitudes necessary for an EMP, and while the Iranians do not currently possess a device - as far as we know - they will probably have one by the time Obastard leaves office, if the Israelis haven't taken care of it themselves.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 11:27:18 PM by Oceander »

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2014, 11:47:47 PM »

SPQR

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2014, 02:40:15 AM »
Nope.  High altitude tests generated EMP at 250 miles altitude, and it is possible to generate EMP at much lower altitudes.  Also, small fission weapons are more efficient at producing EMP than large thermonuclear devices.  For example, from the wikipedia article on Nuclear electromagnetic pulse
Further, from the article cited above:
400km is about 248 miles.

This image from the Glasstone article further indicates that EMP can be generated at much lower altitudes:



Notably, both graphs begin with a Height of Burst ("HOB") at 50km, or 31 miles.

So, with all due respect, you are quite wrong on the altitudes necessary for an EMP, and while the Iranians do not currently possess a device - as far as we know - they will probably have one by the time Obastard leaves office, if the Israelis haven't taken care of it themselves.

I have no problems with your assessment unlike our other so called "atomic" experts.Excellent. An SA-2 surface to air missile equipped with a 16 kiloton warhead can produce one.

 :beer:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:49:42 AM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2014, 07:47:50 AM »
I have no problems with your assessment unlike our other so called "atomic" experts.Excellent. An SA-2 surface to air missile equipped with a 16 kiloton warhead can produce one.

 :beer:

Wasn't claiming to be an expert, just what used to be called good ol' American skepticism.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

SPQR

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2014, 08:32:21 PM »
Wasn't claiming to be an expert, just what used to be called good ol' American skepticism.

It was not directed toward you. it was directed to someone else who claims to be an "atomic" expert. You are a "Goodfellah" in my book.

 :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 08:37:17 PM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Understand EMP threat? U.S. enemies do
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2014, 10:40:03 PM »
It was not directed toward you. it was directed to someone else who claims to be an "atomic" expert. You are a "Goodfellah" in my book.

 :thumbsup:

Thanks, I'm still relearning navigation of human interaction!
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.


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