Author Topic: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails  (Read 1412 times)

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http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/02/07/caught-red-handed-jay-sekulow-details-smoking-gun-irs-scandal-emails

BY
FOX NEWS INSIDER
 // FEB 07 2014 // 11:32AM AS SEEN ON
AMERICA'S NEWSROOM

Jay Sekulow, chief counsel at the American Center for Law and Justice, testified before a House committee yesterday on the IRS scandal. He's representing 41 of the conservative groups that say they were illegally targeted by the IRS.

During his testimony, he pointed to emails sent by former IRS official Lois Lerner that appear to contradict the administration's assertions that the targeting was not a coordinated effort from Washington.

The emails were released by the House Ways and Means Committee as part of its probe of the IRS scandal.

Sekulow explained that the emails show Lerner in contact with the IRS' chief counsel and other top lawyers at least a year before the scandal became public. He said that Lerner wrote about coming up with new rules to restrict non-profit groups.

"They wanted to do it 'off-plan,' which means off the books so it's not on the public calendar. And all of that was taking place while the targeting was going on," he explained. Sekulow says the emails disprove the Obama administration's story about the targeting originating in a remote office among lower level IRS agents.

Sekulow believes the email is a "smoking gun" in his plaintiffs' case against the IRS.

"Legally, the IRS has been caught red-handed and the American people and certainly our plaintiffs are not taking it lying down," said Sekulow. He believes a special prosecutor must be called on to investigate, since the head of the current probe has been found to be a big Obama campaign donor.

"When you see these emails and you understand what's in them, you realize the highest level of the IRS was conspiring with Lois Lerner at least a year before this scandal broke. And what they've attempted to do now is just cover their tracks."

video at link

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2014, 11:46:23 AM »
We will never again be a truly free people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist income tax and the IRS!

There is legislation currently before both houses of congress (HR25/S122) which would deal with that quite effectively and return us to the sort of taxation universally endorsed by our founders!

http://fairtax.org
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 11:47:31 AM by Bigun »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 02:16:44 PM »
We will never again be a truly free people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist income tax and the IRS!

There is legislation currently before both houses of congress (HR25/S122) which would deal with that quite effectively and return us to the sort of taxation universally endorsed by our founders!

http://fairtax.org


I agree, especially since it is being used as a weapon against a supposedly free people.
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline happyg

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2014, 09:35:07 PM »
When the entire administration is a bunch of crooks, this what we get.

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2014, 10:14:18 PM »
We will never again be a truly free people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist income tax and the IRS!

There is legislation currently before both houses of congress (HR25/S122) which would deal with that quite effectively and return us to the sort of taxation universally endorsed by our founders!

http://fairtax.org



I agree, especially since it is being used as a weapon against a supposedly free people.



/snicker

And guns kill people, people don't kill people.

You two are utterly fixated on the wrong end of the gun.  If there's malice behind the weapon, it matters little what weapon it happens to be; if there's no malice behind the weapon, then it isn't a weapon at all.

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2014, 10:54:44 PM »

/snicker

And guns kill people, people don't kill people.

You two are utterly fixated on the wrong end of the gun.  If there's malice behind the weapon, it matters little what weapon it happens to be; if there's no malice behind the weapon, then it isn't a weapon at all.

And you seem to have a real problem distinguishing between inanimate objects and real live human beings! Guns are inanimate objects with no ability to think, reason or plot. The IRS is quite another matter as are the PEOPLE who control it!!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 10:55:11 PM by Bigun »

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2014, 10:58:39 PM »

/snicker

And guns kill people, people don't kill people.

You two are utterly fixated on the wrong end of the gun.  If there's malice behind the weapon, it matters little what weapon it happens to be; if there's no malice behind the weapon, then it isn't a weapon at all.

"... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ......just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers -- and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

- p.411,
Ayn Rand, ATLAS SHRUGGED, Signet Books, NY, 1957
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 10:59:24 PM by Bigun »

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2014, 11:02:51 PM »

/snicker

And guns kill people, people don't kill people.

You two are utterly fixated on the wrong end of the gun.  If there's malice behind the weapon, it matters little what weapon it happens to be; if there's no malice behind the weapon, then it isn't a weapon at all.

" The socialistic and anti-social character of the income tax is inherent.

Imbedded in the philosophy of the law is the destructive principle, so that once it is in effect the economic and political consequences are inevitable.  The principle of the income tax is the denial of private property.

There is nothing in the Sixteenth Amendment, there is nothing in the principle of the income tax, which puts a limit on the amount the State may demand, and hence the implication is clear that the individual's absolute right of private property is denied.


The theory of republican government, that its powers are derived from the will of the people, is no safeguard against this denial of private property.

Assuming that the Sixteenth Amendment at the time of its enactment did express the will of the people, every one of them, the substance and effect of income taxation was to destroy the will of any subsequent generation for modification or revocation.

It is unlike any other law.  For the denial of the right of private property is in essence the denial of the right of the individual to himself. He is no longer a free person if he is not free to keep and enjoy the products of his labors. --"


From Solomon’s Yoke to the Income Tax  by Frank Chodorov

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2014, 11:05:41 PM »
“Maybe we ought to see that every person who gets a tax return receives a copy of the Communist Manifesto with it so he can see what's happening to him.” - T. Coleman Andrews, Commissioner of IRS, May 25, 1956 in U.S. News & World Report.

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2014, 12:22:12 AM »
" The socialistic and anti-social character of the income tax is inherent.

Imbedded in the philosophy of the law is the destructive principle, so that once it is in effect the economic and political consequences are inevitable.  The principle of the income tax is the denial of private property.

There is nothing in the Sixteenth Amendment, there is nothing in the principle of the income tax, which puts a limit on the amount the State may demand, and hence the implication is clear that the individual's absolute right of private property is denied.


The theory of republican government, that its powers are derived from the will of the people, is no safeguard against this denial of private property.

Assuming that the Sixteenth Amendment at the time of its enactment did express the will of the people, every one of them, the substance and effect of income taxation was to destroy the will of any subsequent generation for modification or revocation.

It is unlike any other law.  For the denial of the right of private property is in essence the denial of the right of the individual to himself. He is no longer a free person if he is not free to keep and enjoy the products of his labors. --"


From Solomon’s Yoke to the Income Tax  by Frank Chodorov

You, and Mr. Chodorov, have apparently never read the Supreme Court cases to which the 16th Amendment was a response.  Had you read them you would know beyond any doubt that the income most people earn today - wages and salaries - was subject to taxation as income even before the 16th Amendment was approved.

The income tax as it applies to wages and salaries - compensation for personal services - is and always has been constitutional and repealing the 16th Amendment would do nothing other than to stop the taxation of capital gains (income from the sale of capital assets), of interest, and of rents.

As for the nonsense that an income tax is somehow verboten because Marx and Engels approved of it:  that's as stupid as arguing that armed insurrection, no matter how bad the oppression, should be verboten because Marx and Engels advocated armed insurrection by the proletariat.

Focus on the people who use the tools and not on the tools themselves.  To do otherwise is to become as benighted and ignorant as the gun control crowd.

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2014, 02:34:12 AM »
You, and Mr. Chodorov, have apparently never read the Supreme Court cases to which the 16th Amendment was a response.  Had you read them you would know beyond any doubt that the income most people earn today - wages and salaries - was subject to taxation as income even before the 16th Amendment was approved.

The income tax as it applies to wages and salaries - compensation for personal services - is and always has been constitutional and repealing the 16th Amendment would do nothing other than to stop the taxation of capital gains (income from the sale of capital assets), of interest, and of rents.

As for the nonsense that an income tax is somehow verboten because Marx and Engels approved of it:  that's as stupid as arguing that armed insurrection, no matter how bad the oppression, should be verboten because Marx and Engels advocated armed insurrection by the proletariat.

Focus on the people who use the tools and not on the tools themselves.  To do otherwise is to become as benighted and ignorant as the gun control crowd.

I am well aware of what the courts have said and quite sure Mr. Chodorov was as well.  I cannot speak for him but please know that I don't care!

Mr. Chodorov was speaking about the moralities of the income tax and not the legalities. I'm quite sure you know the difference!

I will also tell you that I have spent a goodly amount of time studying the founding of this nation and the writings of those involved in doing that. Having done so I think I have a fair idea as to what they intended this republic to be.

I have also made it my business to read the writings of those who's purpose it is to undermine and destroy what those great men created here and will, for as long as I am standing, do everything possible to undo their successes!

Your N.Y. senator recently said something about some wanting to undo the 20th century. He was right about that and I'm one of them! I can think of no better place to start  than the year 1913 and I plan on continuing to pursue that project for as long as I am able! 

Offline Gazoo

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2014, 08:13:16 AM »
The IRS testimonials have admitted to targeting tea party groups.

C-SPAN | IRS Targeting of Conservative Groups, Part 1
http://www.c-span.org/video/?317634-1/IRSTar

C-SPAN | IRS Targeting of Conservative Groups, Part 2
http://www.c-span.org/video/?317634-2/RSTarg

Prior to this hearing the IRS admitted to wrong doing and yet Obama says, 'boneheaded vogue workers, not a smidgen of corruption.'

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNV5d14EBJ0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNV5d14EBJ0</a>


IF OBAMA IS NOT IMPEACHED FOR THE IRS SCANDAL AND MADE TO ANSWER, we have lost America.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 08:19:36 AM by Gazoo »
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

Offline Gazoo

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2014, 08:18:47 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32ZAqkQxAg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z32ZAqkQxAg</a>
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

Offline Gazoo

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2014, 08:55:28 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a03Ns6ljsX8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a03Ns6ljsX8</a>
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2014, 11:04:10 AM »
I am well aware of what the courts have said and quite sure Mr. Chodorov was as well.  I cannot speak for him but please know that I don't care!

Mr. Chodorov was speaking about the moralities of the income tax and not the legalities. I'm quite sure you know the difference!

I will also tell you that I have spent a goodly amount of time studying the founding of this nation and the writings of those involved in doing that. Having done so I think I have a fair idea as to what they intended this republic to be.

I have also made it my business to read the writings of those who's purpose it is to undermine and destroy what those great men created here and will, for as long as I am standing, do everything possible to undo their successes!

Your N.Y. senator recently said something about some wanting to undo the 20th century. He was right about that and I'm one of them! I can think of no better place to start  than the year 1913 and I plan on continuing to pursue that project for as long as I am able! 

Knock yourself out.  Far be it from me to stop someone from pursuing their own personal fixations, no matter how illogical.

Your President Obama would disagree with you as well.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 11:04:47 AM by Oceander »

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2014, 12:49:05 PM »
Viz. taxation, a much more efficient, fairer, tax, and one subject to less evasion and fraud, would be a tax imposed on every financial transaction with or through a bank or other financial institution.  The dollar value of all payments transactions through financial institutions in 2000 was approximately $700 trillion (see here: http://www.bis.org/cpss/paysys/UnitedStatesComp.pdf); the dollar value of those transactions has almost certainly increased since then.  If we assume that the value of those transactions, in nominal dollars, has increased by $100 trillion, to about $800 trillion (a conservative estimate given the enormous new number of electronic transactions that weren't possible 13 years ago), then a per-transaction tax of about 0.3% - about one-third of one percent - on those transactions would raise enough revenue to replace all of the federal government's revenue (actual for 2013 being $2.8 trillion, see http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/fed_revenue_2012USrn ).  If we wanted to replace less than all of the federal government's revenue with a financial transaction tax the rate would be even lower; if we wanted to replace half of the federal government's current revenue - $1.4 trillion - with a financial transactions tax, the rate would be approximately 0.175% - a little more than one-eighth of one percent.

Such a tax would certainly comport with the concept of fairness underlying the so-called Fairtax because everyone would be subjected to the same percentage tax.  Such a tax would also be efficient from both collection, compliance, and economic burden perspectives.  From a collection perspective, the tax would be collected through mandatory withholding imposed on the financial institutions; payor-based withholding is much more efficient - and therefore less costly on a per-dollar revenue basis - than other methods in which the person nominally subject to the tax is supposed to self-report and pay the tax.

From a compliance perspective, compliance would be very simple:  for every dollar of transaction, the transacting bank would be required to withhold the required percentage, and that would be the end of the tax issue - the only returns to be filed would be the withholding returns the banks would file, and withholding returns based on a fixed percentage of a fixed base are generally pretty simple.  Revenue auditing would also become dramatically easier - the government would only need to audit the financial institutions - every individual in this country would be permanently spared the threat of another painful income tax audit.  Such auditing would be further simplified by the fact that banks already use very robust computer systems to track every transaction down to percentages of a penny; that data would make the audits substantially easier than the sort of income tax audits most individuals have to suffer through.

Tax evasion would also drop by orders of magnitude.  First, as noted above, a withholding regime substantially reduces the amount of evasion because the withholding agent has no real skin in the game - it's not their money and it has to be paid out to someone (they don't get to keep it) so they're generally agnostic about the identity of whom it's paid to.  Second, the tax is a single rate, imposed on an absolutely identifiable base, without any of the sorts of issues that bedevil income taxation, like characterization (ordinary or capital), timing (taxable now, or later, even though realized), whether taxed only on realization, or merely apon accrual (which brings in subsidiary issues of when and why accrual is required), and the issue of deductions and exemptions from otherwise taxable gross income.

Finally, such a tax would be economically efficient because capital and capital movement distributes the burden of a tax from the nominal bearers to the ultimate economic bearers quicker and more efficiently than does the rest of the economy, particularly when the tax burden to be redistributed is an income tax.

So, if we want to change/fix the tax system to make it fairer, more efficient, and less subject to evasion and cheating, then let's discuss it from a practical, rational, economic point of view, and eschew the use of political ideology as a means of evaluating the value of any particular tax regime.

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2014, 02:25:46 PM »
Viz. taxation, a much more efficient, fairer, tax, and one subject to less evasion and fraud, would be a tax imposed on every financial transaction with or through a bank or other financial institution.  The dollar value of all payments transactions through financial institutions in 2000 was approximately $700 trillion (see here: http://www.bis.org/cpss/paysys/UnitedStatesComp.pdf); the dollar value of those transactions has almost certainly increased since then.  If we assume that the value of those transactions, in nominal dollars, has increased by $100 trillion, to about $800 trillion (a conservative estimate given the enormous new number of electronic transactions that weren't possible 13 years ago), then a per-transaction tax of about 0.3% - about one-third of one percent - on those transactions would raise enough revenue to replace all of the federal government's revenue (actual for 2013 being $2.8 trillion, see http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/fed_revenue_2012USrn ).  If we wanted to replace less than all of the federal government's revenue with a financial transaction tax the rate would be even lower; if we wanted to replace half of the federal government's current revenue - $1.4 trillion - with a financial transactions tax, the rate would be approximately 0.175% - a little more than one-eighth of one percent.

Such a tax would certainly comport with the concept of fairness underlying the so-called Fairtax because everyone would be subjected to the same percentage tax.  Such a tax would also be efficient from both collection, compliance, and economic burden perspectives.  From a collection perspective, the tax would be collected through mandatory withholding imposed on the financial institutions; payor-based withholding is much more efficient - and therefore less costly on a per-dollar revenue basis - than other methods in which the person nominally subject to the tax is supposed to self-report and pay the tax.

From a compliance perspective, compliance would be very simple:  for every dollar of transaction, the transacting bank would be required to withhold the required percentage, and that would be the end of the tax issue - the only returns to be filed would be the withholding returns the banks would file, and withholding returns based on a fixed percentage of a fixed base are generally pretty simple.  Revenue auditing would also become dramatically easier - the government would only need to audit the financial institutions - every individual in this country would be permanently spared the threat of another painful income tax audit.  Such auditing would be further simplified by the fact that banks already use very robust computer systems to track every transaction down to percentages of a penny; that data would make the audits substantially easier than the sort of income tax audits most individuals have to suffer through.

Tax evasion would also drop by orders of magnitude.  First, as noted above, a withholding regime substantially reduces the amount of evasion because the withholding agent has no real skin in the game - it's not their money and it has to be paid out to someone (they don't get to keep it) so they're generally agnostic about the identity of whom it's paid to.  Second, the tax is a single rate, imposed on an absolutely identifiable base, without any of the sorts of issues that bedevil income taxation, like characterization (ordinary or capital), timing (taxable now, or later, even though realized), whether taxed only on realization, or merely apon accrual (which brings in subsidiary issues of when and why accrual is required), and the issue of deductions and exemptions from otherwise taxable gross income.

Finally, such a tax would be economically efficient because capital and capital movement distributes the burden of a tax from the nominal bearers to the ultimate economic bearers quicker and more efficiently than does the rest of the economy, particularly when the tax burden to be redistributed is an income tax.

So, if we want to change/fix the tax system to make it fairer, more efficient, and less subject to evasion and cheating, then let's discuss it from a practical, rational, economic point of view, and eschew the use of political ideology as a means of evaluating the value of any particular tax regime.


Well some of Senator Shumer’s closest friends certainly like that idea! (In November 2011, Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Representative Peter A. DeFazio (D-Ore. introduced new legislation to impose a financial transaction tax.)  For a variety of reasons I don’t! In fact, I find it to be a horrendously BAD idea!
 
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2011/wp1154.pdf

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2014, 05:11:45 PM »
Our "representatives" should read about Hitler and other despots.  They might find that any law designed to take power from the masses can be turned on the representatives as well, and usually is.  As soon as the powers that be feel someone is intruding on their tyrannical rights, the representative is gone.  A close example is what is happening on N. Korea.
Abraham Lincoln:

There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law.
--January 27, 1838 Lyceum Address

Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties. And not to Democrats alone do I make this appeal, but to all who love these
great and true principles.
--August 27, 1856 Speech at Kalamazoo, Michigan

Let us then turn this government back into the channel in which the framers of the Constitution originally placed it.
--July 10, 1858 Speech at Chicago

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2014, 07:55:26 PM »
Just in case anyone is unaware of all the wondrous things imposed on the country in the year 1913 under the formerly worst ever president!

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/archived-articles/../2010/08/1913_was_a_very_bad_year.html

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2014, 07:58:42 PM »
Just in case anyone is unaware of all the wondrous things imposed on the country in the year 1913 under the formerly worst ever president!

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/archived-articles/../2010/08/1913_was_a_very_bad_year.html


 goopo
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2014, 10:49:19 PM »
Well some of Senator Shumer’s closest friends certainly like that idea! (In November 2011, Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Representative Peter A. DeFazio (D-Ore. introduced new legislation to impose a financial transaction tax.)  For a variety of reasons I don’t! In fact, I find it to be a horrendously BAD idea!
 
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2011/wp1154.pdf



What you think and $2 will get you a cup of coffee, with change to spare.

The article is quite interesting, and I would never suggest that a financial transactions tax would not be without problems, but other than that I didn't find any particularly devastating issues with a broadbased FTT (as opposed to the narrow-base STTs mostly discussed).  In fact, the article itself indicates that a well-designed FTT could in some circumstances be less distorting than the current capital income taxes we have.

The issue of cascading is an interesting one, but (a) I don't think it's as dire as the article implies, (b) we already have cascade effects under the current income tax, especially when it comes to corporate dividends, and (c) both sales taxes and VATs have effective mechanisms to reduce the impact of cascading and, as the article itself suggests, there is not reason in principle why any undesirable cascading in an FTT could not be similarly mitigated.

Finally - and this is something you ought to be aware of, given the IRS is your idee fixe - the article omits any real discussion of real-world compliance costs - including most importantly the so-called "hidden" compliance costs taxpayers incur in attempting to comply with a given tax regime.  In defense of the article, it was completely reasonable to ignore that issue to focus on the issues the article addresses.  However, when implementing an actual tax system - and especially when comparing two different tax regimes - the full compliance costs, direct and indirect, must be taken into account.  The direct costs of compliance with the current income tax, principally the IRS' annual budget, amount to roughly $13 billion as per the Treasury report here:  http://www.irs.gov/PUP/newsroom/FY%202014%20Budget%20in%20Brief.pdf   The indirect costs of compliance - the costs taxpayers themselves incur in complying with the tax regime, as well as the economic losses they suffer because of the tax system - are harder to determine but estimates run from as low as $215 billion to as high as $987 billion per year as discussed in this article:  http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files/Fichtner_TaxCompliance_v3.pdf  To make the issue of compliance costs a little more straightforward, and because the article you posted has already discussed the potential economic distortions caused by an FTT, let's just consider the accounting costs incurred in complying with the tax code.  According to the article I just cited, estimates of those costs range from $67 billion to $378 billion.  Of those estimates, the one of $378 billion appears to be the most reliable for our purposes because (a) it is the most recent of the estimates the authors reviewed, and (b) is based on the IRS' own estimate of the number of hours various classes of taxpayers spent on compliance, multiplied by a real-world hourly cost for accounting and compliance services (which in the real world are significantly higher than the hypothetical hourly rate used by the IRS.  Taken together, the direct and indirect costs of tax compliance under the current system appear to be approximately $390 billion (at least).  The federal government received tax revenues of about $2.45 trillion in 2012 (see page 5 of the article cited).  That means that total compliance costs are about 16% of revenue raised.

As an aside, I would point out that the compliance costs identified in the article I've cited are almost certainly understated because - being accounting costs - they do not reflect the substantial costs taxpayers incur in defending themselves against audits, additional assessments, and collections.  Hiring a lawyer to defend one's self against an audit, an additional assessment, or enforced collections can very, very easily cost someone $5,000, $10,000, or more, depending on the complexity of what's at stake (an average hourly fee of $300 for legal tax representation is, shall we say, not uncommon, and at that rate 15 hours of work by your attorney would cost you $4,500; reviewing several years' returns to issue spot and do analysis can easily take 10 hours of time; preparing to litigate a deficiency case in Tax Court can easily cost twice that, or more).

An FTT - particularly a broad-base ad valorem FTT - would not have anywhere near those sorts of compliance costs.  A real world FTT would therefore have significant additional advantages that your article does not discuss.  In the real world those differences could make all the difference in the world.


so, here's your cup of coffee




and here's your change





Online Bigun

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2014, 11:10:10 PM »
I don't drink coffee so you will have to drink it. And keep the change!

The biggest problems with any kind of transaction tax is that it would be  a huge dead weight drag on general economy, would cascade, and would be HIDDEN.

Someone who knew quite a lot about these things had this to say about taxes!

“The tax which each individual is bound to pay ought to be certain, and not arbitrary. The time of payment, the manner of payment, the quantity to be paid, ought all to be clear and plain to the contributor, and to every other person, so that the tax payer is not put in the power of the tax gatherer.”--Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations

I agree with him!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 11:16:16 PM by Bigun »

Offline Gazoo

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 08:00:33 AM »
I wonder if the MSM will report on the hearings much less the IRS evidenced emails this morning?
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

Online Bigun

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2014, 08:40:23 AM »
I wonder if the MSM will report on the hearings much less the IRS evidenced emails this morning?

Sure! Right after the sun comes up in the West and you see pigs flying all over the place!

In other words, Not a chance in hell!

Offline Gazoo

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Re: 'Caught Red-Handed': Sekulow Details New 'Smoking Gun' IRS Emails
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2014, 09:12:05 AM »
Sure! Right after the sun comes up in the West and you see pigs flying all over the place!

In other words, Not a chance in hell!


I just did a five second search of the news and only the super ebil wacist Fox News is reporting it.  Good thing Obama told his mindless brainwashed followers; Faux News is OUT TO GET HIM! I wonder If Obama had Sharyl Atkinson of CBS detained or audited after he bugged her?

Oh WAIT the UK news is reporting it.

Sparks fly, knives come out in hearing over IRS targeting of tea party groups as a new email document shows an agency in cover-up mode | Mail Online
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2552413/Sparks-fly-knives-come-hearing-IRS-targeting-tea-party-groups-new-email-document-shows-agency-cover-mode.html
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 09:12:28 AM by Gazoo »
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?


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