Author Topic: Russell Brand: Philip Seymour Hoffman is another victim of extremely stupid drug laws  (Read 5131 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
You're missing the point. Addiction entails deeper issues that simple detox in jail cannot get at.

Addiction needs professional, competent, researched, mental health attention.

It needs one other ingredient. The desire to quit from the addict himself. Without that, all the help in the world will not make a beans worth of difference.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Atomic Cow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,221
  • Gender: Male
  • High Yield Minion
You're missing the point. Addiction entails deeper issues that simple detox in jail cannot get at.

Addiction needs professional, competent, researched, mental health attention.

Yes it does, but these celebrity rehab places are a joke.  Drugs are usually available inside.

Get them over the physical addition by locking them up for a while in a totally controlled environment.  Then deal with the psychological ones.
"...And these atomic bombs which science burst upon the world that night were strange, even to the men who used them."  H. G. Wells, The World Set Free, 1914

"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections." -Lord Acton

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
It needs one other ingredient. The desire to quit from the addict himself. Without that, all the help in the world will not make a beans worth of difference.

That's where the draconian part of the legal system comes in? Threaten enough bad will happen to you so that when you are caught in possession you hit bottom?

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
That's where the draconian part of the legal system comes in? Threaten enough bad will happen to you so that when you are caught in possession you hit bottom?

Never said that. You know how to look and you can keep your addiction going in prison very easily. All I am saying is help is out there. Everyone knows it's there. But without the will to quit, the addict won't use it or will ignore it.

Lohan has been mentioned a couple times in thread - look how effective rehab has been for her. Court mandated, at that, so she couldn't just leave. Russel Brand only got serious about getting clean (metaphorically, he's greasier than a Texas oil field) when he nearly died.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Rapunzel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 71,613
  • Gender: Female
Russel Brand only got serious about getting clean (metaphorically, he's greasier than a Texas oil field) when he nearly died.

and he left a lot of his brain cells on the field.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
and he left a lot of his brain cells on the field.

Sadly, yes. There was a time when he was a wickedly funny observational comic, the hardest form of the hardest word art. Now he's an average actor more famous for who he is shacking up with than anything else.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline olde north church

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,117
I lost a very important person in my life to heroin.  It's nasty sh!t.  Prison does nothing to solve the problem.  Location does nothing to solve the problem.  Hang out friends aren't part of the problem.  Even hitting rock bottom does nothing to solve the problem. 
It's an insatiatiable craving until something clicks.  You can't ever let down your guard.  It's the monster at the door.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
I lost a very important person in my life to heroin.  It's nasty sh!t.  Prison does nothing to solve the problem.  Location does nothing to solve the problem.  Hang out friends aren't part of the problem.  Even hitting rock bottom does nothing to solve the problem. 
It's an insatiatiable craving until something clicks.  You can't ever let down your guard.  It's the monster at the door.

I am so sorry.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
Never said that. You know how to look and you can keep your addiction going in prison very easily. All I am saying is help is out there. Everyone knows it's there. But without the will to quit, the addict won't use it or will ignore it.

Lohan has been mentioned a couple times in thread - look how effective rehab has been for her. Court mandated, at that, so she couldn't just leave. Russel Brand only got serious about getting clean (metaphorically, he's greasier than a Texas oil field) when he nearly died.

I'm sorry. My comment wasn't sarcasm. I was agreeing with many who say that fear of legal retribution could indeed be the impetus to begin change. There is no question the individual has to begin the process in their own mind. There's nothing more powerful than a made-up mind.

Offline Chieftain

  • AMF, YOYO
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,621
  • Gender: Male
  • Your what hurts??
Not familiar with Russell Brand or his work, but I share his point of view here in this opinion piece from the Guardian. Society must move away from looking at addiction as a matter for the police. Drug use is first a medical issue and should be treated apart from criminal behavior.

Brand had this to say about the death of Philip Seymour Hoffman from a self-administered injection of drugs:

"In spite of his life seeming superficially great, in spite of all the praise and accolades, in spite of all the loving friends and family, there is a predominant voice in the mind of an addict that supersedes all reason and that voice wants you dead. This voice is the unrelenting echo of an unfulfillable void.

"Addiction is a mental illness around which there is a great deal of confusion, which is hugely exacerbated by the laws that criminalise drug addicts.

"If drugs are illegal people who use drugs are criminals. We have set our moral compass on this erroneous premise, and we have strayed so far off course that the landscape we now inhabit provides us with no solutions and greatly increases the problem.

"This is an important moment in history; we know that prohibition does not work. We know that the people who devise drug laws are out of touch and have no idea how to reach a solution. Do they even have the inclination? The fact is their methods are so gallingly ineffective that it is difficult not to deduce that they are deliberately creating the worst imaginable circumstances to maximise the harm caused by substance misuse."

Read more at The Guardian

There's your problem!  I need read no further than the first eight words to figure out why you posted this tripe.  You should really do some research about who Russel Brand is, and then you might understand first of all that he is a Brit, why nothing he has to say on this topic means anything, and why this ran in the British press instead of the American.

Moving on....



Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
I'm sorry. My comment wasn't sarcasm. I was agreeing with many who say that fear of legal retribution could indeed be the impetus to begin change. There is no question the individual has to begin the process in their own mind. There's nothing more powerful than a made-up mind.

No worries. Touchy subject for me.

You need all of it though. Friends, family, willpower, God, professional help, the company of other addicts - and still it is sometimes not enough.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
I was agreeing with many who say that fear of legal retribution could indeed be the impetus to begin change.


Addiction is a disease.

Should we jail people addicted to nicotine in an attempt to control the consequences of their disease, A.K.A. cancer?

If the fear of cancer does nothing to stop many people from smoking, why would "legal retribution" be a more effective way to give addicted individuals that "impetus to begin change"?

P.S. I quit smoking years ago, but that only means that I wasn't afflicted with the disease of addiction, not that everyone can quit smoking because I was able to. I quit a few other things along the way, and the same reasoning applies. 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

rangerrebew

  • Guest
The problem is more basic, why do these people start taking drugs known to be addictive in the first place?  When I was in college long ago, when Moby Dick was a minnow, I was offered these drugs which I politely declined; they could have also.  The decision making is the real problem.  In schools today, students are taught WHAT to think, not HOW to think and it shows in situations like these.

Offline 240B

  • Lord of all things Orange!
  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,150
    • I try my best ...
i wood js luk to sy jfa fsaa and jdj no no! ssiii fdsa and no!
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
The problem is more basic, why do these people start taking drugs known to be addictive in the first place?  When I was in college long ago, when Moby Dick was a minnow, I was offered these drugs which I politely declined; they could have also.  The decision making is the real problem.  In schools today, students are taught WHAT to think, not HOW to think and it shows in situations like these.

People have been making bad decisions long before there were schools. It's simply human nature.

I happen to think that jumping out of a perfectly good airplane in flight is a stupid decision. Some people think that's it is fun.

I bet that the basic response to the question "why did you start using _________?" would be "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline 240B

  • Lord of all things Orange!
  • TBR Advisory Committee
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,150
    • I try my best ...
Addiction is a matter of exposure. No one is programmed to do anything. However, there are tendencies. I may be challenged on this point, because lately there has been talk of DNA memory. While do not agree or disagree with this, I believe that it is worthy of study.
 
But yes,
a person never exposed to smoking, will not smoke.
a person never exposed to alcohol will not drink
 
Exposure is the primary factor. Somebody, showed this guy what's up. And he took to it.. On his own.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 04:27:39 pm by 240B »
You cannot "COEXIST" with people who want to kill you.
If they kill their own with no conscience, there is nothing to stop them from killing you.
Rational fear and anger at vicious murderous Islamic terrorists is the same as irrational antisemitism, according to the Leftists.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
My friend - you are so far wrong your couldn't find correct with a GPS on that.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Addiction is a matter of exposure. No one is programmed to do anything

Genesis 9:7: And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

There few greater physiological needs for any species than procreation. It is even commanded by God.

The need to have sex exists independent of the exposure to the sex act.

There are sex addicts.

It is a disease.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline aligncare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25,916
  • Gender: Male
We know some animals seek out intoxicants in nature. And we design experiments where mice would starve themselves rather than stop pushing a bar delivering a drug dose. Learned behavior? Genetically programmed?

We know dopamine receptors are prominent in the central nervous system of vertebrates and that dopamine is the primary neurotransmitter involved in the reward pathways in the brain. We are beginning to understand more about D1-D2 dopamine receptors and their role in drug craving.

But, why the moral stigma? Why does society criminalize what is probably a universal biological drive?

Ignorance.

Are mice criminals for pushing the bar? Is a two-martini lunch criminal activity? Was a brilliant actor a bad person? Or someone disoriented by brain chemistry? Until we accurately, precisely match the tools necessary to fix the problem – the problem will remain.


Oceander

  • Guest
Apropos the subject and the interminable disagreement over punishment vs. tolerance vs. ?? comes this article from the Dec. 4 NYT:

Amsterdam Has a Deal for Alcoholics: Work Paid in Beer
By ANDREW HIGGINS
Quote
AMSTERDAM — After more than a decade out of work because of a back injury and chronic alcoholism, Fred Schiphorst finally landed a job last year and is determined to keep it.  He gets up at 5:30 a.m., walks his dog and then puts on a red tie, ready to clean litter from the streets of eastern Amsterdam.

“You have to look sharp,” said Mr. Schiphorst, 60, a former construction worker.

His workday begins unfailingly at 9 a.m. — with two cans of beer, a down payment on a salary paid mostly in alcohol.  He gets two more cans at lunch and then another can or, if all goes smoothly, two to round off a productive day.

“I’m not proud of being an alcoholic, but I am proud to have a job again,” said Mr. Schiphorst, the grateful beneficiary of an unusual government-funded program to lure alcoholics off the streets by paying them in beer to pick up trash.

In addition to beer — the brand varies depending on which brewery offers the best price — each member of the cleaning team gets half a packet of rolling tobacco, free lunch and 10 euros a day, or about $13.55.

*  *  *

 The idea of providing alcoholics with beer in return for work, he said, was first tried in Canada.  It took off in the Netherlands in part because the country has traditionally shunned “zero tolerance” in response to addiction.  Amsterdam now has three districts running beer-for-work street cleaning programs, and a fourth discussing whether to follow suit.  Other Dutch cities are looking into the idea, too.

The basic idea is to extend to alcoholics an approach first developed to help heroin addicts, who have for years been provided with free methadone, a less dangerous substitute, in a controlled environment that provides access to health workers and counselors.

“If you just say, ‘Stop drinking and we will help you,’ it doesn’t work,” said Mr. Wijnands, whose foundation gets 80 percent of its financing from the state and runs four drug consumption rooms with free needles for hardened addicts.  “But if you say, ‘I will give you work for a few cans of beer during the day,’ they like it.”

*  *  *


To my way of thinking, the moral aspects as such, divorced from the consequences of an addiction, are red herrings.  The real problem isn't that people use, it's that people who use can cause real havoc when they get out and try to do things like drive.  Secondarily there is the problem of besotted users lying in the streets, too sh*tfaced to do anything else, making scenes, scaring (or assaulting) passersby, and making the place look like an asylum instead of a decent neighborhood.

That would suggest that a primary focus of the punitive approach should be based on the consequences of a user's actions, while using, and not the act of using by itself.

Another problem, it seems to me, is that penalizing mere possession, let alone using, necessarily forces users into a world inhabited by criminals - and not just people who are breaking the laws against possession, but people who engage in all sorts of wrongdoing, like theft, extortion, fraud, etc - and as such causes more of them to become criminals themselves - again, aside from the mere possession/use - which simply causes more grief on all sides.

A third problem is that, because possessing and selling are illegal, there are no controls on what sort of adulterants might be added to any particular substance - after all, if the seller cuts his "stuff" with something that isn't apparent, then he has more "stuff" to sell and makes a higher profit; unless purchasers carry around their own little mini chemical testing labs, they don't have any way to really know if the "stuff" is cut or not, and so it comes down to their appetite for risk.  Also, there are no controls on sellers trying to do things like selling to minors.

There is also the matter of the degree to which a substance incapacitates the user:  a pothead who sits around with a few others and tokes up is not nearly as incapacitated as a long-time heroin user who lies comatose after shooting up.  In other words, heroin is, in a certain sense, more serious - more dangerous - than pot and therefore arguably requires more careful attention to the users.

As to the matter of the government selling intoxicating substances to people:  Virginia has a Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control, the "ABC".  Distilled spirits can only be sold at ABC stores and, by the looks of their website, http://www.abc.virginia.gov/, they are quite adept at advertising the wonders of their products to consumers.  I lived many years in Virginia and I don't recall hearing too much noise about the immorality of government selling hard liquour - and advertising to beat the band by the looks of it - so I have to question a little the rationale behind the arguments that government selling other intoxicating substances is fraught with the sort of moral peril that apparently doesn't apply to alcohol.

I don't really have any answers here, just thoughts and opinions, but it does seem to me that the old paradigm of moral approbation coupled with criminal penalties doesn't work; it clearly didn't work with alcohol during Prohibition and it doesn't seem to work with these other substances either.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
That is a sensible program for alcoholics. 5 to 6 beers spaced out over 10 hours - enough to take the edge off without being dangerous. A lunch provided, betting it is high in protein and carbs too,to give a buffer. A small payment, not enough to pick up a bottle after work, not if he's got a dog to feed.

It's a little help. Not a cure - there isn't one - but help for someone who'd otherwise be a liability to society as a whole.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Oceander

  • Guest
That is a sensible program for alcoholics. 5 to 6 beers spaced out over 10 hours - enough to take the edge off without being dangerous. A lunch provided, betting it is high in protein and carbs too,to give a buffer. A small payment, not enough to pick up a bottle after work, not if he's got a dog to feed.

It's a little help. Not a cure - there isn't one - but help for someone who'd otherwise be a liability to society as a whole.

It also gets them out in the fresh air, a little physical exercise, some simple contact with other people - perhaps a wave and a smile from someone who knows you because they see you every day out there picking up the litter.  It is an interesting program; I'd like to know how it works out long term.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
It also gets them out in the fresh air, a little physical exercise, some simple contact with other people - perhaps a wave and a smile from someone who knows you because they see you every day out there picking up the litter.  It is an interesting program; I'd like to know how it works out long term.

That is a huge thing. Not mentioning names, it's from meetings, but many alcoholics or drug addicts shun people. They avoid contact if at all possible.

Amsterdam has a pretty good history of working with addicts, from needle exchanges to methadone clinics. The fact they are more relaxed about the minor drugs helps - I've had joints in more than a few cafe's there, where it is on the menu next to the coffees. I would expect it to work out well. You are going to get the odd one who slips again. Human nature, that. But it gives a little bit of pride to people who really have none. Look at the way he describes putting on his tie, for example.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Oceander

  • Guest
That is a huge thing. Not mentioning names, it's from meetings, but many alcoholics or drug addicts shun people. They avoid contact if at all possible.

Amsterdam has a pretty good history of working with addicts, from needle exchanges to methadone clinics. The fact they are more relaxed about the minor drugs helps - I've had joints in more than a few cafe's there, where it is on the menu next to the coffees. I would expect it to work out well. You are going to get the odd one who slips again. Human nature, that. But it gives a little bit of pride to people who really have none. Look at the way he describes putting on his tie, for example.

The only concern I would have about spending time in a cafe where they smoke pot is - you guessed it - second-hand smoke.  I tried pot a few times - inhaled even - and the last time came away with a very, very bad reaction that permanently turned me off it.  So while it doesn't particularly bother me if folks want to hang out in a cafe and get stoned, I'd rather that it not be allowed in every cafe and bar because then I might unwittingly end up inhaling when I really didn't want to.  That idea, taken to the next level, clearly supports the argument in favor of strongly regulating cigarette smoking in cafes and bars; not that it should be banned 100%, but perhaps should be limited to smoking "clubs" where if you go in you know exactly what you're going into.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
The only concern I would have about spending time in a cafe where they smoke pot is - you guessed it - second-hand smoke.  I tried pot a few times - inhaled even - and the last time came away with a very, very bad reaction that permanently turned me off it.  So while it doesn't particularly bother me if folks want to hang out in a cafe and get stoned, I'd rather that it not be allowed in every cafe and bar because then I might unwittingly end up inhaling when I really didn't want to.  That idea, taken to the next level, clearly supports the argument in favor of strongly regulating cigarette smoking in cafes and bars; not that it should be banned 100%, but perhaps should be limited to smoking "clubs" where if you go in you know exactly what you're going into.

You get a bad batch sometimes. It's not as if it is quality controlled!  :laugh:

Here you can not smoke in pubs, bars, cafes or restaurants - full stop. It has pretty much killed the entire pub trade. We had 15 pubs in my neighborhood within a 20 minute walk, before the smoking ban. Now we have three.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink