Author Topic: Acquittal Overturned: Court Upholds Murder Conviction of Amanda Knox, Boyfriend in Retrial  (Read 1423 times)

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Offline Rapunzel

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Offline Atomic Cow

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So in Italy they can simply keep putting someone on trial until they get the result they want.  Italy is one country I would never set foot in.  Remember, these are the people who sent scientists to prison for failing to predict an earthquake.

Thank God the Founding Fathers were smart enough to put the double jeopardy clause in the Constitution.
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Offline EC

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Not really - it's more like your system.

Verdict.
Appeal.
Appeal the Appeal.

Not saying it's not corrupt - because it is as corrupt as hell - but it follows the basic judicial system most countries are used to. We should be, it's the same system.
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Offline DCPatriot

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I'm glad she got a second chance at life.

But she should be looking over her shoulder the rest of it.
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Offline Atomic Cow

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Not really - it's more like your system.

Verdict.
Appeal.
Appeal the Appeal.

Not saying it's not corrupt - because it is as corrupt as hell - but it follows the basic judicial system most countries are used to. We should be, it's the same system.

In the US, we do not appeal the appeal.  If the case is tossed on appeal, then the local DA has to decide to try the case again, or decide not to.  An appellate hearing is not another trial nor can it add to a sentence.  We also have trial by jury, not by a handful of judges, although in some states, a defendant can request a trial by judge if they want, although this is usually done for minor offenses rather than capital crimes.

But above all, double jeopardy prevents someone from being tried for the same crime twice.  We do not keep putting someone on trial for the same crime over, and over, and over, until the prosecution gets a conviction.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 12:30:29 AM by Atomic Cow »
"...And these atomic bombs which science burst upon the world that night were strange, even to the men who used them."  H. G. Wells, The World Set Free, 1914

"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections." -Lord Acton

Offline EC

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Thank you for the explanation. I do have one question though.

Quote
But above all, double jeopardy prevents someone from being tried for the same crime twice.  We do not keep putting someone on trial for the same crime over, and over, and over, until the prosecution gets a conviction.

How does that square with the DA having to decide to try the case again if it is thrown out on appeal the first time?
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Online truth_seeker

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Italian law is different from English law (USA too).

Things like presumption of innocence, no double jeopardy, etc. are different.

Perhaps others can expand.
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Offline EC

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Italian law is different from English law (USA too).

Things like presumption of innocence, no double jeopardy, etc. are different.

Perhaps others can expand.

It's the same core - Roman law, which expanded to English Common Law, which is the basis of all American Law. Italian law has a few bells, whistles and flourishes in it from the Papal States era, which dug the idea of the State over the individual deeper into the law.

Presumption of innocence in Italy is a fact, though the initial findings of the magistrate assigned to investigate the case will have an effect on how it proceeds.

I think the best way to explain the difference is that there are no civilian police in Italy. They process all crimes through the lens of military law, since the Carabineiri are a branch of the military. The Poliza are purely civilian, and are confined to traffic duty, mostly.
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Begging to differ somewhat, the root of Roman law, and the root of English law differ.

English law arose from Germanic roots, both Anglo-Saxons from the continent, Norsemen, and then later the infusion of the French-Normans.

True enough the French brought roman notions, but those "French" were Norsemen too.

The Magna Carta was of British origin, in 1215.

Today British law and American law have much more in common, than either with the variants of Roman law, Italy, France, etc.
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SPQR

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« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:29:50 AM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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So in Italy they can simply keep putting someone on trial until they get the result they want.  Italy is one country I would never set foot in.  Remember, these are the people who sent scientists to prison for failing to predict an earthquake.

Thank God the Founding Fathers were smart enough to put the double jeopardy clause in the Constitution.

I wouldn't feel so relaxed about the double jeopardy thing.  There are many other ways for the law enforcement industry to make your life miserable after an acquittal.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline olde north church

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In the US, we do not appeal the appeal.  If the case is tossed on appeal, then the local DA has to decide to try the case again, or decide not to.  An appellate hearing is not another trial nor can it add to a sentence.  We also have trial by jury, not by a handful of judges, although in some states, a defendant can request a trial by judge if they want, although this is usually done for minor offenses rather than capital crimes.

But above all, double jeopardy prevents someone from being tried for the same crime twice.  We do not keep putting someone on trial for the same crime over, and over, and over, until the prosecution gets a conviction.

You may want to rethink that.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Offline Charlespg

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Professional Opinion From Veteran FBI Agent Steve Moore

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html

Mussolini banana republic justice
no dammed way in hell this girl should be sent back
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Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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You may want to rethink that.

Why?  Do you have examples? 

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Professional Opinion From Veteran FBI Agent Steve Moore

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html

Mussolini banana republic justice
no dammed way in hell this girl should be sent back

I agree.

FWIW, I DO think Amanda Knox is guilty, but she was found not guilty in the previous trial.  Let her deal with her own demons.

Offline olde north church

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Why?  Do you have examples?

Off the top of my head, the police involved with Rodney King.  Uncle Sam will jump with fed charges when the locals lose.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Not following your example.  Are you saying those police officers were tried once, found guilty, and then tried again??? 

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I believe the reference is to certain instances in which someone acquitted of a state criminal charge still could face a federal civil rights action.
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Offline Charlespg

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I agree.

FWIW, I DO think Amanda Knox is guilty, but she was found not guilty in the previous trial.  Let her deal with her own demons.
I thought that but I'm not convinced any more ..too many questions about the behavior of Italian   officials in this case
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Offline Oceander

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It's the same core - Roman law, which expanded to English Common Law, which is the basis of all American Law. Italian law has a few bells, whistles and flourishes in it from the Papal States era, which dug the idea of the State over the individual deeper into the law.

Presumption of innocence in Italy is a fact, though the initial findings of the magistrate assigned to investigate the case will have an effect on how it proceeds.

I think the best way to explain the difference is that there are no civilian police in Italy. They process all crimes through the lens of military law, since the Carabineiri are a branch of the military. The Poliza are purely civilian, and are confined to traffic duty, mostly.

Actually, Roman law and English common law are very different creatures.  Yes, by now a lot of countries have blended systems, but a common law system is still quite distinct from a roman law system.  The US has an interesting situation with Puerto Rico because PR's legal system is based on roman law, so US courts have had to get the two to work together harmoniously.

Offline Oceander

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Off the top of my head, the police involved with Rodney King.  Uncle Sam will jump with fed charges when the locals lose.

Federal and state crimes are different crimes - different sovereigns and often, but not always, different elements and different affirmative defenses.  While it's regrettable, and one wishes the Founders had more seriously considered this; however, it does not offend double jeopardy for a person to be tried twice for the same set of actions, once in federal court and once in state court.

Offline Oceander

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I wouldn't feel so relaxed about the double jeopardy thing.  There are many other ways for the law enforcement industry to make your life miserable after an acquittal.

As if they hadn't already made your life thoroughly miserable - and bankrupted you to boot.  If anyone wonders why so many people plead out to lesser charges - even when it's obvious they have a good case - it's very often because, having already spent $10k to $15k just to get to the pretrial step, they realize they can no longer afford to pay for representation - unless, of course, they're willing to, and capable of, getting their families to bankrupt themselves as well.

DAs don't need facts, they don't need proof, and they don't need a good argument to get another notch in their belt, all they need do is wear the accused down financially to the point where accepting a plea to something - especially a misdemeanor in lieu of a felony - is the only way to stop the financial hemorraging.

That is how DAs take their viciousness out on regular people whom they do not like but whose cases aren't sexy enough politically to be worth the bother of actually trying to prepare for a trial - gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses, answering that dreaded omnibus motion from the defense, replete with discovery demands, having to play hide-and-seek with their Rosario materials, etc, etc, etc.  Why waste your time doing all that when you know that if you beg off a few pretrial hearings - judges will never (99.99% never) punish or discipline, or even castigate, a DA who constantly misses pretrial hearings, states that "The People" are not ready for trial after having assured the judge and the accused that they were ready at the last hearing - you can force most accused people - anyone without serious financial resources, or a really sexy case that gets a lot of pro bono defense - to the point of penury, where they simply can no longer afford to resist the vast, coercive power of the State.

Offline EC

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Actually, Roman law and English common law are very different creatures.  Yes, by now a lot of countries have blended systems, but a common law system is still quite distinct from a roman law system.  The US has an interesting situation with Puerto Rico because PR's legal system is based on roman law, so US courts have had to get the two to work together harmoniously.

One of the reasons I love this place  :laugh:

Someone can ALWAYS explain things!

I was always taught that English common law was based on the Roman, though with a healthy (and heavy) mix in of Saxon and Danelaw, then more Roman law after the Normans arrived.
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Offline olde north church

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Not following your example.  Are you saying those police officers were tried once, found guilty, and then tried again???

The officers were acquitted the first time.  Then the feds came in and they were convicted.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.


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