Author Topic: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'  (Read 1144 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« on: January 30, 2014, 01:19:35 PM »

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Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2014, 01:23:25 PM »
As usual, Ted Cruz is right!
 

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 01:53:40 PM »
We have had de facto amnesty for decades. Thru democrat and Republican presidents. Thru democrat and Republican control of congress.

Many illegal immigrants overstay their visas, not sneak over the border.

Here is a fairly balanced compilation of illegal immigration data, well worth the time to read it (which I did, before describing it as "fairly balanced"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 02:27:22 PM »
We have had de facto amnesty for decades. Thru democrat and Republican presidents. Thru democrat and Republican control of congress.

Many illegal immigrants overstay their visas, not sneak over the border.

Here is a fairly balanced compilation of illegal immigration data, well worth the time to read it (which I did, before describing it as "fairly balanced"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

:thumbsup:

The distribution chart in that article was interesting:
Quote
State of Residence of the Illegal Alien Population: January 2000 and 2006

State of residence    Estimated population in January    Percent of total    Percent change    Average annual change
All states                            11,555,000                                 100                              37                              515,000
California                             2,930,000                                   25                             13                                53,333
Texas                                 1,640,000                                   14                               50                                91,667
Florida                                   980,000                                    8                             23                               30,000
Illinois                                   550,000                                    5                             25                               18,333
New York                               540,000                                    5                               -                                   -
Arizona                                  500,000                                    4                             52                               28,333
Georgia                                 490,000                                    4                           123                               45,000
New Jersey                           430,000                                    4                             23                               13,333
North Carolina                        370,000                                    3                             42                               18,333
Washington                          280,000                                     2                             65                               18,333
Other states                       2,950,000                                   26                             69                             200,000


Per capita numbers would have been useful, because that would give a sense of how "visible" illegals are.  I looked at the US state populations here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_population_by_state

and got a few per capita figures (ranked by per capita number, highest to lowest):

CA
population 38,332,521
per capita illegals 7.64% (i.e., 7.64 per every 100)

AZ
population 6,626,624
per capita illegals 7.54% (i.e., 7.54 per every 100)

TX
population 26,448,193
per capita illegals 6.2% (i.e., 6.20 per every 100)

FL
population 19,552,860
per capita illegals 5.01% (i.e., 5.01 per every 100)

GA
population 9,992,167
per capita illegals 4.90% (i.e., 4.90 per every 100)

NJ
population 8,899,339
per capita illegals 4.83% (i.e., 4.83 per every 100)

IL
population 12,882,135
per capita illegals 4.27% (i.e., 4.27 per every 100)

NC
population 9,848,060
per capita illegals 3.76% (i.e., 3.76 per every 100)

NY
population 19,651,127
per capita illegals 2.75% (i.e., 2.75 per every 100)



To me the per capita figures are interesting because

(a) they explain why Arizona is such a flash point on the illegal immigration issue - not simply because of the percentage, but because given the state's small population, a figure of 7.54% is more likely to stick out in AZ than would 7.64% in California; also, I would posit that part of this difference lies in the fact that CA has historically had large - legal - hispanic communities, so illegal immigrants from Central and South America more readily blend in to existing communities than I think they would in AZ; and

(b) they help to explain why there seems to be such a disconnect in the national discussion over illegal immigration between the Western states, particularly Texas and Arizona, and the (mostly liberal) Eastern states, including DC, where the political decisions are ultimately made.  It's a lot easier to dismiss concerns over illegal immigration when you live in NY, with a percentage of just 2.75% (basically, 1/3 of AZ's percentage), or in DC, where the total population figure isn't even in the top 10.

I'm not saying that either side is correct - I don't - but I am saying that this disparity helps to explain why the two sides are talking past each other more than to or with each other.

Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 02:32:21 PM »
We have had de facto amnesty for decades. Thru democrat and Republican presidents. Thru democrat and Republican control of congress.

Many illegal immigrants overstay their visas, not sneak over the border.

Here is a fairly balanced compilation of illegal immigration data, well worth the time to read it (which I did, before describing it as "fairly balanced"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Just because something has been going on for a long time does NOT make it right!

If the executive can pick and choose what laws, or parts of laws, he will enforce what good will any new law be?

Offline Oceander

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 02:36:22 PM »
"Securing the borders" can mean one of two things:

(1) sealing the borders so that none shall pass, or

(2) making sure that you at least know something about everyone who's crossing the border, including where they'll be staying, whom they'll be working for, and getting constantly updated information on any relevant arrests or convictions.

(1) is simply impossible to accomplish.  The Israelis haven't managed to do it notwithstanding the massive concrete fortifications they have along the Egyptian border.  The Soviets and East Germans weren't able to do it, although with them it was mostly about keeping people in rather than out.  About the only country that seems to have come as close as possible to sealing its borders is North Korea, but I hardly think they're an example to emulate.

Given that, (2) is simple common sense: if you can't keep people out, you might as well know something about who's coming in, that way it becomes easier to boot out only those who are going to cause problems without having to get into the realm of dagnets and neighborhood-wide sweeps.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 02:38:24 PM »
Just because something has been going on for a long time does NOT make it right!

If the executive can pick and choose what laws, or parts of laws, he will enforce what good will any new law be?

But the fact that something is morally and physically impossible means that one should stop wasting precious time, energy, and resources, including political capital, trying to accomplish the impossible.

There is one, and only one, way that you will ever seal the borders:  emulate the Gestapo in Nazi Germany or today's North Korea.

I sincerely pray that is not a road you wish to go down.

Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 02:40:53 PM »
But the fact that something is morally and physically impossible means that one should stop wasting precious time, energy, and resources, including political capital, trying to accomplish the impossible.

There is one, and only one, way that you will ever seal the borders:  emulate the Gestapo in Nazi Germany or today's North Korea.

I sincerely pray that is not a road you wish to go down.

Who gets to make the determination as to what is morally impossible?  And the same question for physically impossible?


The fact is that the reason current immigration law is not being enforced has absolutely nothing to do with moral or physical impossibility and everything to do with big money politics!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:44:49 PM by Bigun »

Offline Oceander

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2014, 02:55:55 PM »
Who gets to make the determination as to what is morally impossible?  And the same question for physically impossible?


The fact is that the reason current immigration law is not being enforced has absolutely nothing to do with moral or physical impossibility and everything to do with big money politics!


Reality does.  And reality has demonstrated that it is physically impossible to seal the border unless you are willing to put up massive fortifications and machine gun nests, and shoot anyone and everyone who approaches the wall without authorization.  So, are you a steer or a queer?  Will you waste my and other taxpayers' money attempting the impossible - i.e., be a gelded steer - or will you become the Gestapo, the Stassi, or North Korea - i.e., be a queer.

If you cannot fathom that fundamental reality, then you're really no better than the garden variety liberal who thinks Obamacare is the ne plus ultra solution to everyone's worst health care problems.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:56:18 PM by Oceander »

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2014, 03:02:23 PM »
Just because something has been going on for a long time does NOT make it right!


Humans migrate. Often small numbers of young risk a journey based on an explorers' tale.

If the tale was true about the prospects in the new location, the young band sends messages back to the home villages, and others follow.

That is how Europe was settled, by folks from Central Asian steppes. Germanic and Celtic ancestors originated there. Americans' distant ancestors.

At one point, the British Isles so called "indigenous peoples'" might have resisted the waves of Celts, Germans, Norsemen that came over the next 1000 years. Americans" distant ancestors.

North America is the most favored destination for people, the world over.

Americans' ancestors that journeyed to North America on wooden sailing vessels suffered 25% death rates on many crossings.

Ancestors of us in the West suffered deaths crossing the plains and the mountain ranges.

The modern illegal immigrants are willing to risk deportation.

Reality is reality, if you like it or approve it, or not.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2014, 03:02:44 PM »
Reality does.  And reality has demonstrated that it is physically impossible to seal the border unless you are willing to put up massive fortifications and machine gun nests, and shoot anyone and everyone who approaches the wall without authorization.  So, are you a steer or a queer?  Will you waste my and other taxpayers' money attempting the impossible - i.e., be a gelded steer - or will you become the Gestapo, the Stassi, or North Korea - i.e., be a queer.

If you cannot fathom that fundamental reality, then you're really no better than the garden variety liberal who thinks Obamacare is the ne plus ultra solution to everyone's worst health care problems.

I LIVE in Texas sport and KNOW what the reality is so save your scare tactics for those less informed on the matter! The fact is that ALL we need do to secure the border is:

1. Turn off the magnets

2. Enforce CURRENT law!

If you can't get your head wrapped around that you have another agenda!

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2014, 03:05:15 PM »
I LIVE in Texas sport and KNOW what the reality is so save your scare tactics for those less informed on the matter! The fact is that ALL we need do to secure the border is:

1. Turn off the magnets

2. Enforce CURRENT law!

If you can't get your head wrapped around that you have another agenda!

Exactly!  All this gestapo scare tactics crap is just that crap. It is quite simple to secure the border, just turn off the donuts and cookies on this side of the border.  Look at what Oceander posted - AZ has 4% and we are on the border, but we turned off the freebies here so they go somewhere else.

And as for TS''s claim people migrate....... let them migrate LEGALLY!  Try moving illegally to Mexico, Guatemala, Canada, etc. and see how well this works out for you.

Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2014, 03:06:09 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2014, 03:10:20 PM »


and what is overlooked by these border hawks is legal Mexicans dislike illegals, too.

Offline happyg

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2014, 03:15:43 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 03:17:49 PM »
Do the math.. 220,000 X $27,000 each per year.  Add in the increased cost of crime in our communities, etc.. and the number is staggering - and none of these numbers are included in the unicorns and fairy dust numbers fed the CBO.

Offline MBB1984

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 04:01:26 PM »
"Securing the borders" can mean one of two things:

(1) sealing the borders so that none shall pass,

Securing the borders does not mean that "none" shall pass.   No one expects a complete seal no more than we expect total elimination of all crime.   It means that instead of allowing hundreds of thousands to pass perhaps have a few hundred pass.  We don't secure all drunk drivers, rapists, child molesters, and murderers either.   

Offline MBB1984

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 04:12:18 PM »
  So, are you a steer or a queer? 

Either you have been watching "Officer and a Gentleman" too much or you need to check your medications.  How you insert steers and homosexuals into a discussion on illegal immigration seems bizarre to say the least.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2014, 04:19:34 PM »
Either you have been watching "Officer and a Gentleman" too much or you need to check your medications.  How you insert steers and homosexuals into a discussion on illegal immigration seems bizarre to say the least.

 :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:  had me scratching my head, too. When some people have nothing positive to add to a discussion then throw out red meat that has nothing to do with the subject of discussion.

Offline happyg

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2014, 08:38:40 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 09:46:10 PM »
Lindsay Graham actually claims SC is in favor of amnesty.

Online Bigun

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 09:58:39 PM »
Lindsay Graham actually claims SC is in favor of amnesty.

Hopefully Lindsey is about to find out that South Carolina is in favor of a new senator for their state!

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Cruz: GOP immigration plan is 'amnesty'
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 10:02:23 PM »
Hopefully Lindsey is about to find out that South Carolina is in favor of a new senator for their state!

I hope.  He's been keeping a low profile of late - until he made his statement to the Free Beacon about amnesty.


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