Author Topic: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier  (Read 812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SPQR

  • Guest
By KUNIICHI TANIDA/ Staff Writer

he Maritime Self-Defense Force’s newest ship has a flight deck its entire length and is nearly the size of the Shokaku and Zuikaku aircraft carriers that took part in the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor, yet Japan insists it is not an aircraft carrier.

With a length of about 250 meters and standard displacement of 19,500 tons, the Izumo is the biggest ship in the fleet. Up to nine helicopters can land on its deck at the same time.

Even so, the Defense Ministry and MSDF insist the Izumo, which was launched last summer, is simply a destroyer capable of carrying helicopters.

Media in China and South Korea played up the launching, calling the Izumo a "semi-aircraft carrier" and evidence of a rightward tilt in Japan's policies.

Military journalist Shinichi Kiyotani said: "Under international standards, it is nothing less than an aircraft carrier. The government is gradually expanding its interpretation because it is afraid it could become a political problem."

For its part, Jane's Fighting Ships, a reference book on all the world’s warships released annually in Britain, describes the Izumo as a helicopter carrier.

The Izumo is scheduled to replace the destroyer Shirane based at the MSDF base in Maizuru, Kyoto Prefecture, in spring 2015. The Shirane has a standard displacement of 5,200 tons.

The MSDF already has two other helicopter-carrying destroyers with standard displacements in excess of 10,000 tons: the Hyuga and the Ise. Another ship on the same scale as the Izumo is also under construction, meaning the MSDF will eventually maintain four of the large ships.

The Mid-Term Defense Program approved by the Abe Cabinet in December placed the four helicopter-carrying destroyers as the core vessels of the nation’s escort flotillas.

Some ships are defined by their duty, such as submarines and transport ships. However, all large surface ships whose primary mission is combat-related are defined as destroyers.

Katsutoshi Kawano, the chief of staff of the MSDF, said, "Under regulations, there is no other way to refer to the ship but as a destroyer."

The government issued a statement in 1988 on deploying of aircraft carriers. The document stated that the SDF would not possess intercontinental ballistic missiles, strategic bombers or attack aircraft carriers.

With Japan maintaining an exclusive defensive posture, aircraft carriers like those used by the U.S. Navy, which are capable of projecting force against both sea and land targets with their fighter jets, were not considered conducive to that policy.

Defense Ministry officials said there are no plans for the Izumo to carry fighter jets. Rather, they insisted the Izumo is a multipurpose ship that will be used to deal with natural disasters or international emergency rescue operations.

To address concerns the Izumo can handle vertical landing fighter jets, such as the F-35B, a high-ranking Defense Ministry official said, "While retrofitting might be possible, it would be impossible realistically since it would require huge amounts of time and money, including the purchase of the jets and the training of the necessary personnel."

Since the end of World War II, one of the MSDF's main missions has been to work in conjunction with the U.S. Navy to search out, and destroy if need be, enemy submarines.

That mission remains unchanged, given that China and other neighboring nations have expanded their submarine fleets.

Previous generation destroyers deployed by the MSDF could only carry from one to three anti-submarine helicopters with the sensors and torpedoes needed to detect and potentially destroy hostile underwater forces.

However, it was decided that if the number of helicopters a destroyer was capable of handling was increased and repairs could take place on deck, search-and-destroy missions could be made more efficient, expanding their scope and length of mission.

Yoji Koda, who once served as the commander of the Self-Defense Fleet, said, "The Izumo is a ship that is fundamentally different from an aircraft carrier. If an aircraft carrier is deemed necessary in the future, it should only be constructed after explaining to the public why it is needed."

The Liberal Democratic Party originally budgeted for the Izumo in fiscal 2010. The launching came after Prime Minister Shinzo Abe returned to power following the LDP's election triumph over the Democratic Party of Japan in December 2012.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/AJ201401070039

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 12:38:58 AM »
Under Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, Japan is forbidden  from maintaining an army, navy or air force .Here is the actual article. ”

The official English translation of the article reads:

“ ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:49:12 AM by SPQR »

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 12:44:14 AM »



This is what the ship looks like
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:45:17 AM by SPQR »

Offline AbaraXas

  • Не русский хакер
  • Social Media Advisor
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 11,795
  • Words full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 12:48:58 AM »
Her deck appears to short for modern fighters outside V/STOLs like Harriers.
I think it is fine time we go back to our 70 year old surrender treaty with Japan and realize it is both out of date and she has full rights of defense in this modern world.
I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 12:50:08 AM »
Her deck appears to short for modern fighters outside V/STOLs like Harriers.


The JSF(F-35B) has vertical take off capability.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 12:56:31 AM by SPQR »

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 01:01:27 AM »
In Fact,  The F-35 and  MV-22 Osprey is on their shopping list. Both planes would be perfect for that "aircraft carrier". As long as Japan keeps Article 9 in mind and we have a presence in Okinawa is should be all right with the USA

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/12/18/ospreys-and-f-35s-on-japans-240b-shopping-list/
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 01:08:28 AM by SPQR »

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,502
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 02:40:10 AM »
Of course it is not an aircraft carrier. It is merely a floating resupply and repair field for forward based aircraft.

Don't forget, there are plenty of mothballed Harriers available for sale until the Ospreys and the F-35's come in.

Should the USA get involved in anything in the area, having an extra landing field would be useful.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 03:01:20 AM »
Of course it is not an aircraft carrier. It is merely a floating resupply and repair field for forward based aircraft.

Don't forget, there are plenty of mothballed Harriers available for sale until the Ospreys and the F-35's come in.

Should the USA get involved in anything in the area, having an extra landing field would be useful.


I do not think that they want Harriers in mind. They want their F-35Bs. Where does it say that its a repair field in the article. I would like you to point that out to me.Izumo-class helicopter destroyer or 22DDH is a type of new helicopter carrier class being constructed for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF).

http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21583292-country-launches-its-biggest-warship-second-world-war-wide-mouthed-frog
IF IT’S as big as an aircraft-carrier and looks like an aircraft-carrier, chances are that it is an aircraft-carrier—or can readily be turned into one. In Yokohama on August 6th Japan unveiled its biggest warship since the second world war. Officially, the Izumo is a destroyer; when it enters service in 2015 it will come with a complement of up to 14 helicopters that will be used for anti-submarine warfare and border-surveillance missions. The ship, with a displacement of 27,000 tonnes fully loaded, is half as big again as anything else in the Japanese fleet. It will also be able to ferry lots of people and equipment to disaster-relief sites.

For the moment, at least, the Izumo does nothing to challenge Japan’s pacifist constitution, drawn up after the war, which forbids the country to project force abroad—with strike carriers, for instance. However, speculation is rife that the Izumo, with a flight deck of 248 metres (814 feet), could be used to launch fixed-wing aircraft, should the constitution or circumstances change. The vessel is similar in size to the French and Italian carriers, the Charles de Gaulle and the Cavour. It is nearly 40 metres longer than the Invincible-class carriers from which Britain operated Harrier jump-jets. Although the Izumo lacks “cats and traps” (catapults for take-off, arrester cables for landing) or a “ski-jump” bow, it would not take much modification to fly the short take-off version of America’s stealthy new Joint Strike Fighter. The Chinese, who already have a (converted Soviet) carrier and are building at least two more of a similar design, have angrily called the Izumo an “aircraft-carrier in disguise”. They have a point

« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 03:12:05 AM by SPQR »

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,502
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 03:11:50 AM »
I do not think that they want Harriers in mind. They want their F-35Bs. Where does it say that its a repair field in the article. I would like you to point that out to me.

I was teasing slightly. They'll come up with some reasoning along those lines. A rose by any other name is still a rose. It's a carrier, alright, but they can't call it one, due to the treaty, so of course they have to deny it. Carriers are purely offensive weapons.

It's similar to the sophistry used by the Germans when they built the Bismark and the Scharnhorst. Both were technically classed as pocket battleships, as by treaty those were the largest warships they were permitted. The Germans must have pretty big pockets.

And - Good Morning! Nice crop of posts today.  :beer:
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 03:14:20 AM »
I was teasing slightly. They'll come up with some reasoning along those lines. A rose by any other name is still a rose. It's a carrier, alright, but they can't call it one, due to the treaty, so of course they have to deny it. Carriers are purely offensive weapons.

It's similar to the sophistry used by the Germans when they built the Bismark and the Scharnhorst. Both were technically classed as pocket battleships, as by treaty those were the largest warships they were permitted. The Germans must have pretty big pockets.

And - Good Morning! Nice crop of posts today.  :beer:

Thanks for the compliment.:) As long as they acknowledge Article 9 of their constitution and maintaining that Okinawa is a permanent base for U.S. troops its fine me. If they use it against the Chinese or North Koreans its also fine with me. That is what I think that this "carrier" was built for .Just in case the North Koreans and Chinese begin to "overstep" their bounds.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 03:17:50 AM by SPQR »

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,502
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 03:31:04 AM »
I would add one small observation.

Izumo has a few meanings, and the Japanese are big on symbolism.

Quote
By contrast Izumo is associated with Amaterasu’s brother, Susanoo no mikoto, the unruly storm god who throws a tantrum and causes trouble in the high plains of heaven. Amaterasu famously withdraws into a cave; Susanoo ends up an exile on earth where he wanders around the Hii River in Izumo.  Amaterasu is female and determinedly Japanese.  Susanoo is male and has foreign associations. http://www.greenshinto.com/wp/2011/11/09/izumo-land-of-myths-mists-and-otherness/


Quote
Your name of Izumo gives you a very happy-go-lucky, spontaneous nature.
 
You see the humorous side of many situations and can laugh at yourself as well as at others.
 
This name gives you a musical, artistic nature and you would do well in any occupation in the entertainment field.
 
You have many friends because of your generous, happy nature, but if crossed you have a quick temper, although your annoyance does not last too long.
 
You do enjoy an argument and will at times say things just to get others going and then you sit back and enjoy the debate.
 
You lack system and order and find it very difficult to budget and save money.
 
This name creates a nature that can be the life of the party, but many times you can become involved in emotional situations against your better judgment.
 
Your compassionate nature causes you to be too generous and you often give more than you can afford to.
 
You are too fond of sugars and starches, thus you could have a weakness in your liver, kidneys, or skin, creating pimples or eczema.
 
While this name gives you a wonderful personality, and attracts much love and friendship, it is far too emotional and scattering an influence and will not allow the material accumulation nor personal happiness you should have.
http://www.kabalarians.com/male/izumo.htm


And, of course, it is also the name of an airport ....
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 05:48:07 AM »
I would add one small observation.

Izumo has a few meanings, and the Japanese are big on symbolism.

And, of course, it is also the name of an airport ....


That is all you need. Symbolism over substance. Something to show that they are not going to trampled over by North Korea or China. In  Japanese History was one of the regions of ancient Japan where major political powers arose.In Japanese mythology, the entrance to Yomi (Hell, land of the dead) was located within the province, and was sealed by the god Izanagi by placing a large boulder over the entrance.The myths set in Izumo, including the story of the deity, Susanowo, and his battle with Yamatano Orochi, or the eight-headed dragon-like serpent, were written in the ancient Chronicles, the Kojiki and the Nihon shoki. The Izumo fudoki contain more local myths such as the story of Kunibiki, which tells how the lands of Izumo created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo_Province

http://www.izm.ed.jp/english/shinwa.html
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 06:02:23 AM by SPQR »

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2014, 06:06:38 AM »
That is all you need. Symbolism over substance. Something to show that they are not going to trampled over by North Korea or China. In  Japanese History was one of the regions of ancient Japan where major political powers arose.In Japanese mythology, the entrance to Yomi (Hell, land of the dead) was located within the province, and was sealed by the god Izanagi by placing a large boulder over the entrance.The myths set in Izumo, including the story of the deity, Susanowo, and his battle with Yamatano Orochi, or the eight-headed dragon-like serpent, were written in the ancient Chronicles, the Kojiki and the Nihon shoki. The Izumo fudoki contain more local myths such as the story of Kunibiki, which tells how the lands of Izumo created.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo_Province

http://www.izm.ed.jp/english/shinwa.html


Yes, It has an airport

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,502
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2014, 06:07:31 AM »
Yep. Dealing with the Japanese (not that it happens too often) always gives me a headache. They do everything symbolically. It seems to be totally automatic, like we'll drop pop culture and history references into jokes over a beer or two.

One interesting point you just raised: Susanoo no mikoto is strongly associated with Korea.

Back on track, I've been looking for but finding little on how the Izumo has been working up. As a support ship with escorts - like it should be if the official description is right? Or as the core of a battle group? If it is the second, she is going to be a carrier, simple as that.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

SPQR

  • Guest
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2014, 06:14:45 AM »

One interesting point you just raised: Susanoo no mikoto is strongly associated with Korea.


You are forgetting your history. Japan conquered Korea from 1910-1945. The Chosin Resevoir is a Japanese name.The name Chosin is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean place. I believe the Cold War series put out by CNN of DVD mentions this, Attempts were made to introduce the modern household registration system. The Korean cast system was lost by this attempt. In 1911 a proclamation, "Matter Concerning the Changing of Korean Names" was issued barring ethnic Koreans from taking Japanese names and to retroactively revert the names of Koreans that had already registered under Japanese names back to the original Korean ones.By 1939, however this position was reversed and Japan's focus had shifted towards colonial assimilation of the Korean people, and Imperial Decree 19 on Korean Civil Affairs went into effect, whereby ethnic Koreans were forced to surrender their Korean family name and adopt Japanese surnames.Like any language, there are times that words cross national borders.

Quote
Back on track, I've been looking for but finding little on how the Izumo has been working up. As a support ship with escorts - like it should be if the official description is right? Or as the core of a battle group? If it is the second, she is going to be a carrier, simple as that

That would be up to the Japanese Naval authorities,
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 06:38:04 AM by SPQR »

Offline PzLdr

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,421
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2014, 11:42:01 AM »



This is what the ship looks like


Banzai!
Hillary's Self-announced Qualifications: She Stood Up To Putin...She Sits to Pee

Offline PzLdr

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,421
Re: Despite appearances, Japan insists Izumo is not an aircraft carrier
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2014, 11:48:16 AM »
I was teasing slightly. They'll come up with some reasoning along those lines. A rose by any other name is still a rose. It's a carrier, alright, but they can't call it one, due to the treaty, so of course they have to deny it. Carriers are purely offensive weapons.

It's similar to the sophistry used by the Germans when they built the Bismark and the Scharnhorst. Both were technically classed as pocket battleships, as by treaty those were the largest warships they were permitted. The Germans must have pretty big pockets.

And - Good Morning! Nice crop of posts today.  :beer:

Actually, the BISMARCK was never classified as anything but a battleship. What the Germans lied about was her size. The SCHARNHORST was never classified as a Panzerschiffe [the German designation for DEUTSCHLAND, later LUETZOW, ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE or ADMIRAL SCHEER] The only thing she shared with those ships was main armament  [11" guns]. She and her sister ship. GNIESENAU were classified as Schlachtkreuzeren- battlecruisers. They outweighed the pocket battleships by some 15,000 tons. The Germans later re-classified them as battleships.
Hillary's Self-announced Qualifications: She Stood Up To Putin...She Sits to Pee


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf