Author Topic: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects  (Read 873 times)

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SPQR

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Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« on: December 28, 2013, 02:16:45 AM »

Offline massadvj

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2013, 07:05:52 AM »
Taiwan's days as an independent state are numbered.  The country is entirely dependent on the spine and good faith of Barack H. OPapaDoc.  Good luck with that.
"She only coughs when she lies."

SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2013, 01:12:51 PM »
Taiwan's days as an independent state are numbered.  The country is entirely dependent on the spine and good faith of Barack H. OPapaDoc.  Good luck with that.

What they need is  strong dose of American hardware. They have already expressed interest in purchasing the F-35s, anti aircraft weapons and other upgrades to their military hardware. They have already purchased the Apache Helicopter.ROC Army has extensive experience in the construction and utilization of underground tunnels and bases gained during the People's Republic of China's bombardments of Kinmen and Matsu during the Cold War and many facilities are rumoured to be located underground in undisclosed locations.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 01:14:13 PM by SPQR »

Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2013, 01:21:08 PM »
Taiwan's days as an independent state are numbered.  The country is entirely dependent on the spine and good faith of Barack H. OPapaDoc.  Good luck with that.

Taiwan's fate was decided the day Kissinger touched down in Beijing.
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SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2013, 01:23:38 PM »
Taiwan's days as an independent state are numbered.  The country is entirely dependent on the spine and good faith of Barack H. OPapaDoc.  Good luck with that.

Taiwan's fate was decided the day Kissinger touched down in Beijing.

You are forgetting that we have a mutual defense treay that was signed with Taiwan on December 2, 1954

Mutual Defense Treaty between the United States of America and the Republic of China

 

The Parties to this Treaty,
     Reaffirming their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all Governments, and desiring to strengthen the fabric of peace in the West Pacific Area,
     Recalling with mutual pride the relationship which brought their two peoples together in a common bond of sympathy and mutual ideals to fight side by side against irnperialist aggression during the last war,
     Desiring to declare publicly and formally their sense of unity and their common determination to defend themselves against external armed attack, so that no potential aggressor could be under the illusion that either of them stands alone in the West Pacific Area, and
     Desiring further to strengthen their present efforts for collective defense for the preservation of peace and security pending the development of a more comprehensive system of regional security in the West Pacific Area,
     Have agreed as follows:

 

Article 1   

    The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace, security and justice are not endangered and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

 

Article 2

    In order more effectively to achieve the objective of this Treaty, the Parties separately and jointly by self-help and mutual aid will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack and communist subversive activities directed from without against their territorial integrity and political stability.

 

Article 3

    The Parties undertake to strengthen their free institutions and to cooperate with each other in the development of economic progress and social well-being and to further their individual and collective efforts toward these ends.

 

Article 4

    The Parties, through their Foreign Ministers or their deputies, will consult together from time to time regarding the implementation of this Treaty.

 

Article 5

    Each Party recognizes that an armed attack in the West Pacific Area directed against the territories of either of the Parties would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes.
     Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall be immediately reported to the Security Council of the United Nations. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

 

Article 6

    For the purposes of Articles 2 and 5, the terms "territorial" and "territories" shall mean in respect of the Republic of China, Taiwan and the Pescadores; and in respect of the United States of America, the island territories in the West Pacific under its jurisdiction. The provisions of Articles 2 and 5 will be applicable to such other territories as may be determined by mutual agreement.

 

Article 7

    The Government of the Republic of China grants, and the Government of the United States of America accepts, the right to dispose such United States land, air, and sea forces in and about Taiwan and the Pescadores as may be required for their defense, as determined by mutual agreement.

 

Article 8

    This Treaty does not affect and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations of the Parties under the Charter of the United Nations or the responsibility of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

 

Article 9

    This Treaty shall be ratified by the Republic of China and the United States of America in accordance with their respective constitutional processes and will come into force when instruments of ratification thereof have been exchanged by them at Taipei.

 

Article 10

    This Treaty shall remain in force indefinitely. Either Party may terminate it one year after notice has been given to the other party.
     IN WITNESS WHEREOF, The undersigned Plenipotentiaries have signed this Treaty.
     DONE in duplicate, in the Chinese and English languages, at Washington on this Second day of the Twelfth month of the Forty-third Year of the Republic of China, corresponding to the Second day of December of the Year One Thousand Nine Hundred and Fifty-four.

For the Republic of China:
GEORGE K.C. YEH

For the United States of America:
JOHN FOSTER DULLES
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 01:24:36 PM by SPQR »

SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2013, 01:34:11 PM »
You are forgetting that we have a mutual defense treay that was signed with Taiwan on December 2, 1954

Mutual Defense Treaty between the United States of America and the Republic of China

 

The Parties to this Treaty,
     Reaffirming their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all Governments, and desiring to strengthen the fabric of peace in the West Pacific Area,
     Recalling with mutual pride the relationship which brought their two peoples together in a common bond of sympathy and mutual ideals to fight side by side against irnperialist aggression during the last war,
     Desiring to declare publicly and formally their sense of unity and their common determination to defend themselves against external armed attack, so that no potential aggressor could be under the illusion that either of them stands alone in the West Pacific Area, and
     Desiring further to strengthen their present efforts for collective defense for the preservation of peace and security pending the development of a more comprehensive system of regional security in the West Pacific Area,
     Have agreed as follows:

 

Article 1   

    The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace, security and justice are not endangered and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

 

Article 2

    In order more effectively to achieve the objective of this Treaty, the Parties separately and jointly by self-help and mutual aid will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack and communist subversive activities directed from without against their territorial integrity and political stability.

 

Article 3

    The Parties undertake to strengthen their free institutions and to cooperate with each other in the development of economic progress and social well-being and to further their individual and collective efforts toward these ends.

 

Article 4

    The Parties, through their Foreign Ministers or their deputies, will consult together from time to time regarding the implementation of this Treaty.

 

Article 5

    Each Party recognizes that an armed attack in the West Pacific Area directed against the territories of either of the Parties would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes.
     Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall be immediately reported to the Security Council of the United Nations. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

 

Article 6

    For the purposes of Articles 2 and 5, the terms "territorial" and "territories" shall mean in respect of the Republic of China, Taiwan and the Pescadores; and in respect of the United States of America, the island territories in the West Pacific under its jurisdiction. The provisions of Articles 2 and 5 will be applicable to such other territories as may be determined by mutual agreement.

 

Article 7

    The Government of the Republic of China grants, and the Government of the United States of America accepts, the right to dispose such United States land, air, and sea forces in and about Taiwan and the Pescadores as may be required for their defense, as determined by mutual agreement.

 

Article 8

    This Treaty does not affect and shall not be interpreted as affecting in any way the rights and obligations of the Parties under the Charter of the United Nations or the responsibility of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.

 

Article 9

    This Treaty shall be ratified by the Republic of China and the United States of America in accordance with their respective constitutional processes and will come into force when instruments of ratification thereof have been exchanged by them at Taipei.

 

Article 10

    This Treaty shall remain in force indefinitely. Either Party may terminate it one year after notice has been given to the other party.
     IN WITNESS WHEREOF, The undersigned Plenipotentiaries have signed this Treaty.
     DONE in duplicate, in the Chinese and English languages, at Washington on this Second day of the Twelfth month of the Forty-third Year of the Republic of China, corresponding to the Second day of December of the Year One Thousand Nine Hundred and Fifty-four.

For the Republic of China:
GEORGE K.C. YEH

For the United States of America:
JOHN FOSTER DULLES

I forgot to link it. http://www.taiwandocuments.org/mutual01.htm

Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2013, 01:34:41 PM »
You are forgetting that we have a mutual defense treay that was signed with Taiwan on December 2, 1954

I am not forgetting it at all. I just don't think if push comes to shove we will honor it.

Say, aren't we the same country that promised to support Taiwan as the legitimate government of China in the UN and then ignored the promise in favor of Mao?
We shall never be abandoned by Heaven while we act worthy of its aid ~~ Samuel Adams

SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2013, 01:37:37 PM »
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 01:38:13 PM by SPQR »

Offline massadvj

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2013, 01:45:15 PM »
We can easily nullify the treaty with the "Republic of China" by claiming that the USA for decades has recognized that there is only one China, and that our votes in the UN and elsewhere make clear that the China we recognize is not Taiwan.  Besides, OPapaDoc has already demonstrated that he is not bound by the law.  Why would he feel bound by a treaty, which has less authority?
"She only coughs when she lies."

SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2013, 05:41:41 PM »
We can easily nullify the treaty with the "Republic of China" by claiming that the USA for decades has recognized that there is only one China, and that our votes in the UN and elsewhere make clear that the China we recognize is not Taiwan.  Besides, OPapaDoc has already demonstrated that he is not bound by the law.  Why would he feel bound by a treaty, which has less authority?

I do not think that we will not nullify the treaty with Taiwan. That is something a Democrat or an Obama like President will do. We have been fully committed to our treaties with other nations.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:43:20 PM by SPQR »

Offline EC

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2013, 05:53:16 PM »
I do not think that we will not nullify the treaty with Taiwan. That is something a Democrat or an Obama like President will do. We have been fully committed to our treaties with other nations.

Well - not exactly.
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SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2013, 05:54:23 PM »
Well - not exactly.

Provide me with an example. The only treaty we have nullified was the 1972 ABM Treaty in 2001. This treaty was constraining ourselves in the development of Ground Based Interceptors and strategic defense. The Russians have broken every treaty they have signed with us. We have honored every treaty we have signed with our allies.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 06:00:57 PM by SPQR »

SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2013, 06:06:34 PM »
Provide me with an example. The only treaty we have nullified was the 1972 ABM Treaty in 2001. This treaty was constraining ourselves in the development of Ground Based Interceptors and strategic defense. The Russians have broken every treaty they have signed with us. We have honored every treaty we have signed with our allies.

It must be modern treaties. You cannot have treaties dating back into the 19th century

Offline EC

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 06:11:12 PM »
Provide me with an example. The only treaty we have nullified was the 1972 ABM Treaty in 2001. This treaty was constraining ourselves in the development of Ground Based Interceptors and strategic defense. The Russians have broken every treaty they have signed with us. We have honored every treaty we have signed with our allies.

1982. Falklands War. Despite a very long standing mutual defence treaty between the UK and the US, the US did zero to assist us. Didn't want boots on the ground, but we couldn't refuel in the usual places, had no satellite intel and no diplomatic assistance in reducing the loss of life. You can look it up and dispute it if you wish, but I have the advantage. I was physically there.

You guys may forget that. We don't. So yeah. Thanks for that. However, that was a long time ago. I trust Obama, Kerry and Hagel will do their duty by sticking to treaty obligations. After all, they have been models of trust and confidence to their allies so far this year.
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SPQR

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 06:16:03 PM »
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 06:20:56 PM by SPQR »

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2013, 09:13:12 PM »
[[ You are forgetting that we have a mutual defense treay that was signed with Taiwan on December 2, 1954 ]]

That was then.
This is now.

America, in the age of Obama, is not going to war with China to "save" Taiwan.

For that matter, whatever America still exists _after_ Obama isn't going to do it, either.

That's reality, no matter what a piece of paper from 60 years ago says.

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2013, 09:41:48 PM »
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2013, 11:06:17 PM »
So treaties are honored when it is convenient for US national interests. That is really going to cheer up the Taiwanese.

It seems, from this side of the pond, that the US has burned up it's goodwill with most of it's allies. We've been burned too many times to jump to the guns when the President calls for it.

Part of it might be the idiot in the WH. Part of it is disrespect - I mean, seriously, the country has been around for like 2 minutes, and both sides of the aisle are equally guilty of that. Part of it is being hung out to dry - repeatedly.

Whoever swears the oath in 2017 is going to have to spend a lot of time repairing fences and rebuilding bridges.

As long we maintain our commitments to mutual defense treaties we signed in good faith I have no problems.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2013, 11:41:10 PM »
So treaties are honored when it is convenient for US national interests. That is really going to cheer up the Taiwanese.

It seems, from this side of the pond, that the US has burned up it's goodwill with most of it's allies. We've been burned too many times to jump to the guns when the President calls for it.

Part of it might be the idiot in the WH. Part of it is disrespect - I mean, seriously, the country has been around for like 2 minutes, and both sides of the aisle are equally guilty of that. Part of it is being hung out to dry - repeatedly.

Whoever swears the oath in 2017 is going to have to spend a lot of time repairing fences and rebuilding bridges.

It is most definitely the idiot in the White House and if the U.S. has anything to apologize for to the international community it's for how badly it's abused its friends and allies since Jan. 20, 2009.

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Re: Government body grim on Taiwan military prospects
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2013, 11:43:43 PM »
It is most definitely the idiot in the White House and if the U.S. has anything to apologize for to the international community it's for how badly it's abused its friends and allies since Jan. 20, 2009.

I agree. The Obama Administration has been extremely abusive and neglectful toward our allies.


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