Author Topic: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool  (Read 1205 times)

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Offline Rapunzel

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Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« on: December 22, 2013, 03:33:18 PM »

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 08:35:15 PM »
Quote
The process we have in place for legal immigration is in serious need of significant reform, but as a whole, should not be tossed to the wayside just because millions of people decided to skirt the process and immigrate illegally.

Again, this is a false dichotomy and the author simply isn't credible when he's tilting at strawmen he's set up.  In particular, other than the hardcore leftist democrats, no one is talking about getting rid of the immigration laws entirely in order to benefit illegal aliens currently in the country.  However, if everyone else inflexibly stands on current immigration law and insists that first every jot and tittle of it be enforced, no exceptions, then it will be those hardcore leftists who write the bills that reform current immigration law and Obastard will most certainly sign those bills into law.

Do you want that?  Then stop the asinine raving I keep hearing about how we cannot be a nation of laws unless we first enforce to the hilt all of the immigration laws we have right now, and about how there cannot be even an iota of concession to illegal aliens currently in this country as part of any reform of the immigration laws.  Those attitudes, when taken together, inevitably, necessarily, lead to witch-hunts, broad, sweeping searches of every business and every house for illegals, pogroms, mass internments, concentration camps, and forced marches.  In short, to everything the Nazis did to the Jews - other than actually gassing them and burning the corpses, of course.

Of those who refuse to countenance any concession whatsoever to illegals currently in the country I ask this simple question:  will you have the courage to don the brown shirt, invade everyone else's house without a warrant or probable cause, and march anyone you think is an illegal off to an internment camp, or frog-march them across the Rio Grande, or will you hide behind the skirts of those who will?

If so, then I salute you for your willingness to be honest, but I then insist that you also honestly accept as fact that you are utterly antithetical to everything that America stands for.

If you aren't willing to do so, then you're a coward and, more to the point, a "good German."

Steer, queer, or meaningful participation in reforming current immigration law.  Those are the only three choices.


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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 09:23:03 PM »
Many illegals got that way coming in with a legal status, then remaining here illegally. Student, expired work permit, tourist, etc.

The USA long ago lost both the competency and political will,  to run something so simple, as a legal immigration system like the bracero program of the 50s and 60s.

We also lost the competency to run a student visa system, a tourist visa system, or a work permit visa system.

We are politically unwilling to pay for or utilize a serious system. They money is spent instead, on the Americans who lost their jobs to illegals. Low skilled and young workers, often minorities.

If blacks had half a brain, they would oppose illegal immigration, for it deprives their young people of jobs. Who wants to employ 16 year old Antoine, when you can have 25 year old Pedro with several years experience?

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 11:12:35 PM »
Many illegals got that way coming in with a legal status, then remaining here illegally. Student, expired work permit, tourist, etc.

The USA long ago lost both the competency and political will,  to run something so simple, as a legal immigration system like the bracero program of the 50s and 60s.

We also lost the competency to run a student visa system, a tourist visa system, or a work permit visa system.

We are politically unwilling to pay for or utilize a serious system. They money is spent instead, on the Americans who lost their jobs to illegals. Low skilled and young workers, often minorities.

If blacks had half a brain, they would oppose illegal immigration, for it deprives their young people of jobs. Who wants to employ 16 year old Antoine, when you can have 25 year old Pedro with several years experience?



The presence of illegal aliens also undercuts the employment opportunities of people on the bottom end of the economic spectrum because those who employ them can get away with paying them less than the minimum wage and without having to pay any of the payroll taxes - if you're going to cross the line and break the law by hiring illegals, you're very likely to keep going and not pay payroll taxes on them either - which means that an employer can reduce its cost of labor by hiring illegals instead of Americans (or legal residents) whom it might otherwise hire.

The answer to this, however, is not the draconian enforcement of current immigration laws, nor the imposition of even harsher penalties on illegals, but a comprehensive reform that acknowledges the existence of illegals and the futility of trying to keep every single illegal out, and that at least gives the US the ability to maintain information on, and contact with, those who enter only to do work - in other words, something like the bracero programs.  One benefit to such a program is that it would be much harder for employers to reduce their cost of labor by hiring illegals because there would be substantially fewer actual illegals, and those aliens who entered legally as guest workers would not be afraid of demanding they be paid the minimum wage, at least, and those employers would no longer be able to reduce costs by not paying the payroll taxes.  Even if guest workers for a particular employer didn't complain about substandard pay - perhaps because the employer threatened them - a guest worker program that required guest workers to provide the government with up-to-date information about their whereabouts and their employment would make it comparative child's play to identify employers that engaged in such conduct because the government would have sufficient information to identify which employers were employing significant numbers of guest workers and, if that employer was in an industry that historically hired and underpaid illegals - such as agriculture - then those employers could be audited to ensure that they were treating their employees - guest worker as well as American - legally, including by paying them at least the minimum wage and paying the required payroll taxes.  And best of all, this could all be accomplished by making the focus of enforcement the employer, not the guest worker, which would defang most of the criticisms that enforcement of the immigration laws discriminates against American citizens and residents who happen to look like someone from another country - such as an American citizen of Mexican ancestry who still looks very much like a Mexican currently living in Mexico.

Embracing a sensible guest worker immigration reform should be a no-brainer, particularly for those who are concerned about the deleterious effects of illegal immigration on the employment opportunities of Americans on the lower end of the economic spectrum.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 08:13:25 AM »
all the Corporatists sing:

1.  If a robot can do what 10 workers can do, why hire 10 workers with attached luggage:  benefits, salaries and personal problems?  So they can piss, moan and play pinocle all day?

2.  It's still probably cheaper to build a factory anywhere in the world than North America, Europe or Japan.  Employ the natives there.  Ship from there.  Sell here for 100 years.

3.  Not pay taxes or a reduced amount of taxes.

4.  No unions.

5.  Limited government interference.

That's just the major reasons to NOT to build in the "civilized" world.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 09:21:33 AM »
all the Corporatists sing:

1.  If a robot can do what 10 workers can do, why hire 10 workers with attached luggage:  benefits, salaries and personal problems?  So they can piss, moan and play pinocle all day?

2.  It's still probably cheaper to build a factory anywhere in the world than North America, Europe or Japan.  Employ the natives there.  Ship from there.  Sell here for 100 years.

3.  Not pay taxes or a reduced amount of taxes.

4.  No unions.

5.  Limited government interference.

That's just the major reasons to NOT to build in the "civilized" world.

The basic laws of economics sing that tune; anyone who chooses not to follow is simply engaged in welfarism.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 10:27:16 AM »
The basic laws of economics sing that tune; anyone who chooses not to follow is simply engaged in welfarism.

And I thought I was going to need a /sarc tag!
You are the ginchiest!
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online Bigun

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2013, 10:39:11 AM »
Again, this is a false dichotomy and the author simply isn't credible when he's tilting at strawmen he's set up.  In particular, other than the hardcore leftist democrats, no one is talking about getting rid of the immigration laws entirely in order to benefit illegal aliens currently in the country.  However, if everyone else inflexibly stands on current immigration law and insists that first every jot and tittle of it be enforced, no exceptions, then it will be those hardcore leftists who write the bills that reform current immigration law and Obastard will most certainly sign those bills into law.

Do you want that?  Then stop the asinine raving I keep hearing about how we cannot be a nation of laws unless we first enforce to the hilt all of the immigration laws we have right now, and about how there cannot be even an iota of concession to illegal aliens currently in this country as part of any reform of the immigration laws.  Those attitudes, when taken together, inevitably, necessarily, lead to witch-hunts, broad, sweeping searches of every business and every house for illegals, pogroms, mass internments, concentration camps, and forced marches.  In short, to everything the Nazis did to the Jews - other than actually gassing them and burning the corpses, of course.

Of those who refuse to countenance any concession whatsoever to illegals currently in the country I ask this simple question:  will you have the courage to don the brown shirt, invade everyone else's house without a warrant or probable cause, and march anyone you think is an illegal off to an internment camp, or frog-march them across the Rio Grande, or will you hide behind the skirts of those who will?

If so, then I salute you for your willingness to be honest, but I then insist that you also honestly accept as fact that you are utterly antithetical to everything that America stands for.

If you aren't willing to do so, then you're a coward and, more to the point, a "good German."

Steer, queer, or meaningful participation in reforming current immigration law.  Those are the only three choices.

I find it strange indeed that a skilled practitioner of law would hold such an opinion but you are STILL entitled to it and I STILL vehemently disagree!

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2013, 10:43:51 AM »
I find it strange indeed that a skilled practitioner of law would hold such an opinion but you are STILL entitled to it and I STILL vehemently disagree!

Hold what opinion?  That failing to fully enforce each and every single law to the hilt is nothing less than lawless anarchy?  Why?  What else is jury nullification than the refusal to enforce a particular law?  Shall we punish jurors for engaging in jury nullification because, by that single act, they've turned us all into lawless savages?  Should the common sense exercise of prosecutorial discretion be banished as the act of lawless savages?  Is rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in an unpopulated area of the country equally as reprehensible as intentionally murdering someone?  After all, both are violations of "The Law" so excusing the former is just as much an act of savage lawlessness as excusing the latter, is it not?

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2013, 10:51:02 AM »
Hold what opinion?  That failing to fully enforce each and every single law to the hilt is nothing less than lawless anarchy?  Why?  What else is jury nullification than the refusal to enforce a particular law?  Shall we punish jurors for engaging in jury nullification because, by that single act, they've turned us all into lawless savages?  Should the common sense exercise of prosecutorial discretion be banished as the act of lawless savages?  Is rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in an unpopulated area of the country equally as reprehensible as intentionally murdering someone?  After all, both are violations of "The Law" so excusing the former is just as much an act of savage lawlessness as excusing the latter, is it not?

I would remind you sir that what a JURY does is a VASTLY different thing than what the government does! The government has a duty, clearly laid out in our Constitution, to enforce the law as it exists and the duty of the jury is to rule on the LAW and the FACTS of each and every case that comes before them!

It is NOT, and never should be,  the province of the government to make judgments about the law as it currently exists.
 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 10:55:31 AM by Bigun »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2013, 11:00:33 AM »
Hold what opinion?  That failing to fully enforce each and every single law to the hilt is nothing less than lawless anarchy?  Why?  What else is jury nullification than the refusal to enforce a particular law?  Shall we punish jurors for engaging in jury nullification because, by that single act, they've turned us all into lawless savages?  Should the common sense exercise of prosecutorial discretion be banished as the act of lawless savages?  Is rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection in an unpopulated area of the country equally as reprehensible as intentionally murdering someone?  After all, both are violations of "The Law" so excusing the former is just as much an act of savage lawlessness as excusing the latter, is it not?

Members of juries, otherwise known as citizens, as opposed to subjects, as most in the law enforcement would see them, know the difference between a law of sense and a law of subjugation.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2013, 11:21:52 AM »
I would remind you sir that what a JURY does is a VASTLY different thing than what the government does! The government has a duty, clearly laid out in our Constitution, to enforce the law as it exists and the duty of the jury is to rule on the LAW and the FACTS of each and every case that comes before them!

It is NOT, and never should be,  the province of the government to make judgments about the law as it currently exists.
 

Really?  So the extremely long history of prosecutorial discretion that we inherited from the English when we incorporated English common law into this country is unconstitutional, even though it was clearly within the contemplation of the Founders?  You can't just willy-nilly pick and choose what you want from what the Founders had before them.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2013, 11:23:41 AM »
Members of juries, otherwise known as citizens, as opposed to subjects, as most in the law enforcement would see them, know the difference between a law of sense and a law of subjugation.

They do?  What about the jury that nullified California criminal law and found OJ not guilty?  Are you saying, then, that the California criminal law he was charged under was senseless, and merely a law of subjugation.

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2013, 11:26:45 AM »
Really?  So the extremely long history of prosecutorial discretion that we inherited from the English when we incorporated English common law into this country is unconstitutional, even though it was clearly within the contemplation of the Founders?  You can't just willy-nilly pick and choose what you want from what the Founders had before them.

Prosecutorial discretion is about deciding whether or not you have enough evidence in a PARTICULAR case to warrant prosecution and NOT at all about making judgements about the law in general. You well know this and are just throwing chaff up in the air in an attempt to cloud the issue!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 12:31:20 PM by Bigun »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2013, 11:41:00 AM »
They do?  What about the jury that nullified California criminal law and found OJ not guilty?  Are you saying, then, that the California criminal law he was charged under was senseless, and merely a law of subjugation.

I'm not talking about morons.  I'm speaking about people who can recognize the difference between a law that prevents people from doing what they wish on their property, such as cutting down a tree or open a lemonade stand.  Your attitude is one of the reasons why people have such disrespect for the laws that are passed for nothing more than revenue growth or social control.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2013, 11:41:43 AM »
They do?  What about the jury that nullified California criminal law and found OJ not guilty?  Are you saying, then, that the California criminal law he was charged under was senseless, and merely a law of subjugation.

So Michael Nifong would be a buddy of yours?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline EC

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2013, 12:04:27 PM »
Look. I looked into this, in depth.

If I were to come to live in the USA legally, it would take 3 years and several thousand dollars. I can come over on a visa waiver, over stay and never be caught. Total cost - the flight.

Which do you think is more appealing?
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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2013, 12:30:07 PM »
Look. I looked into this, in depth.

If I were to come to live in the USA legally, it would take 3 years and several thousand dollars. I can come over on a visa waiver, over stay and never be caught. Total cost - the flight.

Which do you think is more appealing?

You have summed up the entire problem in one short sentence!

Try doing that in any other country on earth!

Offline EC

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2013, 12:48:13 PM »
You have summed up the entire problem in one short sentence!

Try doing that in any other country on earth!

Add into the mix that the USA is the only country apart from North Korea that does not permit dual nationality and that aggressively taxes monies earned abroad.
Can you see any benefits to legal citizenship? Your taxes go up, you are required to repudiate your heritage, lose your identity and forgo travel to countries that are not fond of the US.

No thanks. I'll stay illegal if I ever wander over.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2013, 01:13:41 PM »
Add into the mix that the USA is the only country apart from North Korea that does not permit dual nationality and that aggressively taxes monies earned abroad.
Can you see any benefits to legal citizenship? Your taxes go up, you are required to repudiate your heritage, lose your identity and forgo travel to countries that are not fond of the US.

No thanks. I'll stay illegal if I ever wander over.

Given the current state of affairs I don't blame you one bit!

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2013, 09:03:51 PM »
You have summed up the entire problem in one short sentence!

Try doing that in any other country on earth!

Do you think illegals try to get into Switzerland, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Nederland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Australia etc.

What do you think they have in common with the USA?

Do you think none of those nations have problems with illegal immigration?
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2013, 11:50:09 PM »
Add into the mix that the USA is the only country apart from North Korea that does not permit dual nationality and that aggressively taxes monies earned abroad.
Can you see any benefits to legal citizenship? Your taxes go up, you are required to repudiate your heritage, lose your identity and forgo travel to countries that are not fond of the US.

No thanks. I'll stay illegal if I ever wander over.

Actually, the US does permit dual nationality or, to put it more precisely, it doesn't prohibit dual nationality.  There's a short summary of it from the Dept of State here:  http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2013, 11:52:07 PM »
Look. I looked into this, in depth.

If I were to come to live in the USA legally, it would take 3 years and several thousand dollars. I can come over on a visa waiver, over stay and never be caught. Total cost - the flight.

Which do you think is more appealing?

Which is why liberalizing the immigration laws only makes sense because, at the least, it allows the government to keep better information on who's entered and what they're doing while they're here.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2013, 11:55:52 PM »
Do you think illegals try to get into Switzerland, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Nederland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Australia etc.

What do you think they have in common with the USA?

Do you think none of those nations have problems with illegal immigration?


Uhhh, they're all in Europe?  :silly:

Offline EC

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Re: Illegal Immigration: History's Greatest Wage Suppression Tool
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2013, 12:22:07 AM »
Actually, the US does permit dual nationality or, to put it more precisely, it doesn't prohibit dual nationality.  There's a short summary of it from the Dept of State here:  http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

Fair point - thank you for the link. They don't, however, like it or encourage it. States that in the summary, and two people I know who did emigrate legally had it strongly suggested that they give up their original nationality (One UK, one Aussie).
I wouldn't. Got 4 nationalities (with matching passports) already - why would I give any of them up?

Far easier for me to just overstay and disappear.
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