Author Topic: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia  (Read 627 times)

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SPQR

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Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« on: December 21, 2013, 04:39:47 AM »
By Strategy Page

 Poland has agreed to buy 119 more German Leopard 2 tanks for about $2 million each and the deal includes lots of spare parts and support equipment. Most of these are 2A5s although 14 are older 2A4s. Back in 2003 Poland obtained 128 of these tanks from Germany for the bargain basement price of $21.6 million along with 23 MiG-29 fighters for only $30 million. The tanks were selected by Polish tank experts from among the three hundred Leopard 2s recently placed in storage after being taken out of service by the downsized German Army. The original 128 Leopards still had at least 75 percent of their operational life remaining. That deal includes 8 Buffel armored recovery vehicles, four Biber bridgelayers, four Keiler mine-clearing tanks, and ten M577 command post vehicles.

Most 2A models have a stabilizer (for firing on the move) and a thermal imager (for seeing through night, mist and sand storms.) Germany has been selling refurbed 2A4s since the 1990s, after the Cold War ended and the German army was much reduced in size. This enabled many nations to inexpensively upgrade their aging armored forces.

The German Leopard 2 tank continues to be a hot item in the second hand market, often to replace U.S. M-60 tanks (a 1960s design.) Already over 1,500 have been sold to Austria, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Singapore, Denmark, Finland, Poland, Portugal, Greece, Chile, Turkey and Spain. Originally, West Germany bought 2,125 new Leopard 2 tanks, the Netherlands 445, Switzerland 370, Sweden 120, Spain 219 and Greece 170.

Until the 1980s, the Leopard I was considered one of the best tanks available. Entering service in the late 1960s, it was the first post-World War II German tank design. Although a contemporary of the American M-60A3, the German tank was considered superior. For this reason, Germany was able to export Leopards to many nations. Most of the 4,744 produced (plus 1,741 Leopard chassis adapted to other uses, like recovery and anti-aircraft) have since been retired (in storage) or scrapped. Many owners may have to melt down theirs Leopard Is, for there's not much of a market left for 44 ton tanks, even those equipped with a lot of nifty upgrades. The original buyers of Leopard I have already flooded the market but now only Leopard 2s are wanted.

Poland is using the Leopards as part of its ongoing post-Cold War military reforms. In 2000 the Polish military had 185,000 troops and depended a lot on conscripts who were in for only a year. By 2010 troop strength was down to 100,000 and, as of 2009, conscription was gone. Civilian defense employees were also cut. The personnel cuts, and over 70 base closings, saved over a billion dollars a year. Also valuable was the retirement of old Soviet era equipment, which was expensive to maintain and not as effective as Western stuff. This was especially the case with Russian warplanes, like the MiG-29. Now Poland is replacing them with F-16s. Second hand Leopard 2A4 tanks provide Poland with a more powerful tank than anything the Russians have. Most current Polish tanks are PT-91s, a Polish made upgrade of the T-72. Most Polish forces are up to NATO standards, and all will be by the end of the decade. This is immensely reassuring to Poles, who have been threatened by their Russian neighbor for centuries.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20131220.aspx

Offline Ford289HiPo

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 06:44:47 PM »
It seems that the Polish military will soon be stronger than the German military.
I wonder when the lies will stop and truth begin, even as grim as the truth may be. And then I remember that for 70 years, the reign of terror in Russia called itself "the people's government." We have so far to fall, yet we are falling fast and Hell yawns to receive us.

SPQR

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 11:31:10 PM »
It seems that the Polish military will soon be stronger than the German military.

 As members as NATO, they need the necessary equipment to defend themselves against a every growing hostile Russia. They remember how they were rolled over in two world wars including a dictatorial communist in which they were almost wiped off the map and and they do not any repeats.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 11:33:10 PM by SPQR »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 11:57:14 PM »
Good time to break out Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising"....basically a conventional WWIII with the Soviets rolling their tanks through the Fulda Gap.....and that was the novel Clancy talked about how to use a stealth bomber, well before the F-117 was revealed....

 :beer:


SPQR

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 12:00:02 AM »
Good time to break out Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising"....basically a conventional WWIII with the Soviets rolling their tanks through the Fulda Gap.....and that was the novel Clancy talked about how to use a stealth bomber, well before the F-117 was revealed....

 :beer:

If the Russians would have broken through the Fulda Gap, we would have no choice to use tactical nuclear weapons.

Offline Ford289HiPo

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2013, 09:24:11 PM »
If the Russians would have broken through the Fulda Gap, we would have no choice to use tactical nuclear weapons.


Good time to break out Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising"....basically a conventional WWIII with the Soviets rolling their tanks through the Fulda Gap.....and that was the novel Clancy talked about how to use a stealth bomber, well before the F-117 was revealed....

 :beer:




I found The Third World War, August 1985, by General Sir John Hackett to be a better read. It was a riveting tale that many in NATO thought would actually come about. I was in Germany, on the border camps, in August '85, and it was tense. We were at double our normal strength.
In his book, WP forces basically did a Hail Mary by going through the easy to traverse, and less defended North German Plain. It was also seen as a conventional conflict until the very end, where both sides went nuke.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_World_War:_The_Untold_Story
I wonder when the lies will stop and truth begin, even as grim as the truth may be. And then I remember that for 70 years, the reign of terror in Russia called itself "the people's government." We have so far to fall, yet we are falling fast and Hell yawns to receive us.

SPQR

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2013, 11:13:36 PM »
I found The Third World War, August 1985, by General Sir John Hackett to be a better read. It was a riveting tale that many in NATO thought would actually come about. I was in Germany, on the border camps, in August '85, and it was tense. We were at double our normal strength.
In his book, WP forces basically did a Hail Mary by going through the easy to traverse, and less defended North German Plain. It was also seen as a conventional conflict until the very end, where both sides went nuke.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_World_War:_The_Untold_Story


The Fulda Gap is a key point in NATO defense.For many years V Corps' principal adversary was the Soviet 8th Guards Army, which was to be followed by additional armies (including the four armored divisions and one mechanized infantry division of the Soviet 1st Guards Tank Army), making the Fulda Gap a key entry route for the Soviet Bloc to western Europe in any hypothetical battle in Cold War Europe; both armies were well-equipped and held high-priority for receiving new equipment.Operations Plan 4102 [with Annexes] is a top secret road map from peace to war by the US Europen Command. It described in minute detail how the US forces would react, almost hourly, to a Soviet attack across the inter-German border, including detailed plans for bringing in reinforcements from the United States, equipping them, and putting them under NATO command. The plan included descriptions of where each unit will go upon the outbreak of war, and now individual combat units would use the hills and valleys of the rugged West German terrain to conduct a defense in depth, including nuclear-release procedures.

Offline Ford289HiPo

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 01:11:50 PM »
The Fulda Gap is a key point in NATO defense.For many years V Corps' principal adversary was the Soviet 8th Guards Army, which was to be followed by additional armies (including the four armored divisions and one mechanized infantry division of the Soviet 1st Guards Tank Army), making the Fulda Gap a key entry route for the Soviet Bloc to western Europe in any hypothetical battle in Cold War Europe;

OK we know it, and they know it, but what was to stop the WP from actually using it as a diversionary tactic? After all, we did the same in WW2 (Calais vs Normandy). Oplans are just pieces of paper that can be superceded.

Another comment on Oplan4102 - I seriously doubt that it included the plane set by the 2ACR in the late 70's-early 80's, where they planned to set up defenses 3km inside Czechoslovakia.
Yes, we had plans for that, but since preparations would have to be done before that actual outbreak of hostilities, it would be tantamount to causing the conflict.   
I wonder when the lies will stop and truth begin, even as grim as the truth may be. And then I remember that for 70 years, the reign of terror in Russia called itself "the people's government." We have so far to fall, yet we are falling fast and Hell yawns to receive us.

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 01:29:07 PM »
The presence of forces in Germany post WWII was not with the expectations they could win a conventional war with the Soviets.

Rather it was intended to delay, and temporarily block the Soviets.  The war was to be nuclear, as far as the USA was concerned.

Career military with families in Germany planned to put them in their civilian motorcars, and have them head west to France, and out of Europe.

(Poland was the battleground of Europe for centuries.)

SPQR

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Re: Poland Gets More Panzers To Discourage Russia
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 03:02:07 PM »
The presence of forces in Germany post WWII was not with the expectations they could win a conventional war with the Soviets.

Rather it was intended to delay, and temporarily block the Soviets.  The war was to be nuclear, as far as the USA was concerned.

Career military with families in Germany planned to put them in their civilian motorcars, and have them head west to France, and out of Europe.

(Poland was the battleground of Europe for centuries.)

I do not think any nation in Western Europe would be spared from a nuclear attack.. We would use a Pershing II missile and they would use their SS-20s. There would be many nations in the middle of the Soviet Union and the USA in a nuclear exchange.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 03:07:51 PM by SPQR »


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