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Offline mystery-ak

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« on: December 20, 2013, 10:38:18 AM »

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Offline Bigun

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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2013, 10:57:17 AM »
If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem!

Boehner is DEFINITELY part of the problem!
 

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 11:21:32 AM »
There will be no more shutdowns.  Shutdowns are blamed on Republicans and a shutdown would have taken the focus off the failure of Obamacare.

Jenny Beth is an ideological purist who thinks a shutdown would somehow benefit conservatives.

She doesn't get it and likely never will.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline xfreeper

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« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 11:45:48 AM »
boehner epitomizes an illegitimate government

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 12:04:16 PM »
boehner epitomizes an illegitimate government

What a silly statement!  "Illegitimate" government?  Makes no sense.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Oceander

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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 02:38:31 PM »
boehner epitomizes an illegitimate government

With all due respect:  not hardly.  Unlike Obama, Boehner was elected - and re-elected - in legitimate elections not tainted by fraud.  He was legitimately elected by his constituents and, accordingly, if one doesn't like him, he stands as an example of what Churchill meant when he said that democracy was the worst form of government.  The problem with governments elected by the people is that, generally speaking, they get the government they deserve.

Offline xfreeper

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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 04:02:30 PM »
With all due respect:  not hardly.  Unlike Obama, Boehner was elected - and re-elected - in legitimate elections not tainted by fraud.  He was legitimately elected by his constituents and, accordingly, if one doesn't like him, he stands as an example of what Churchill meant when he said that democracy was the worst form of government.  The problem with governments elected by the people is that, generally speaking, they get the government they deserve.

Boehner is part of a congress that on a good day has the approval of less than 10% of the citizens. Elected in legitimate elections? I guessd it depends on your idea of legitimate. The election process is so corrupted by gerry mandering, votes bought and paid for and a ruling class that will say and do anything to insure their office. The only way to explain how cycle after cycle after cycle we end up with election winners that the people do not approve of is by questioning how legitimate the elections actually are.

Offline evadR²

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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 04:18:32 PM »
they were legitimately fraudulently elected.
"It's not who votes but who counts the votes".
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline evadR²

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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 04:19:44 PM »
Like we say in Merryland..
Whatever happened to the days when we had good crooks?
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Online Oceander

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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 06:34:20 PM »
Boehner is part of a congress that on a good day has the approval of less than 10% of the citizens. Elected in legitimate elections? I guessd it depends on your idea of legitimate. The election process is so corrupted by gerry mandering, votes bought and paid for and a ruling class that will say and do anything to insure their office. The only way to explain how cycle after cycle after cycle we end up with election winners that the people do not approve of is by questioning how legitimate the elections actually are.

Gerrymandering has such a long history in American politics that it cannot be discounted as being, by itself, a corruption of the electoral system.  The accusation of votes bought and paid for is rather serious and, considering that the known election fraud cases all involve liberals/democrats, would need strong evidence to demonstrate that Boehner was elected because of purchased votes.

The accusations of a ruling class that will say and do anything to remain in office is, simply put, one of the particular ills of democracy, including republican democracies, and is facilitated by the First Amendment, which allows anyone to say pretty much anything and leaves it up to the voters to decide who's trustworthy and who's blowing smoke.  That can result in a case of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."  In the case of someone like Boehner, who's been re-elected several times, his constituents have no one to blame but themselves if they don't like him, and for those Americans who aren't in his constituency, they can certainly attempt to persuade his constituents to change their minds but, at the end of the day, his constituents have the final say over whether he's elected or not, and the rest of us have to deal with that decision.

There's actually a much simpler explanation for why the country, as a whole, ends up with politicians that the American people, as a whole, do not like:  everyone likes their own politician even as they dislike everyone else's politicians.  This is a very well-documented phenomenon.  It's first cousin to the problem of cutting government spending:  everyone agrees that government spending must be cut, but no one wants the spending on their own pet projects to be cut.  As a result, no government spending gets cut even though everyone is in agreement that it must be cut.

As I said before, the biggest problem with a political system where the government is popularly elected is the fact that the electorate as a whole always ends up with the government it deserves.  This can be extremely painful for those individual members of that electorate who can see more clearly than their fellow electors.

Offline xfreeper

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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 06:49:07 PM »
We can explain, rationalize, justify, etc. all the little idiosyncrasies of our electoral process all we want. Nonetheless, it has become completely corrupt and the end result is a government that is not acceptable to over 90%of the people that have elected it. Not only is it not representative of the people, it is an insular ruling class that cares about little more than amassing wealth for itself (mostly stolen from the people that supposedly 'elected' them) and retaining power and privilege. To say that we deserve the govt we elect no longer cuts it. The government we elected needs to be perp walked out of the capital because that is the only way it will ever be replaced. It is entrenched by the very corruption it has bread.

Online Oceander

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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 06:53:49 PM »
*  *  *

the end result is a government that is not acceptable to over 90%of the people that have elected it.

*  *  *

That is a logically impossible statement.  If the people elected it, then that necessarily means that it's acceptable to them; if it weren't, then why did they vote for it?  And if they voted for it because they believed things that weren't true, then they have to face the consequences of their own failure to do proper due diligence on the candidates - precisely the way that liberals are now having to suffer the consequences of their having voted Obama & Co. into office, thereby subjecting themselves to the tender mercies of Obamacare.

I'm not saying that we should just accept it as the way it has to be and just silently go along to get along - we should most certainly be prosletyzing for a better government, but we do have to accept that, as bad as it is, it is the government that a majority of our fellow citizens legitimately elected.

Offline happyg

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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 07:00:52 PM »
I hope someone, anyone, runs against Boehner, and at the least, republicans remove him as speaker. In 2012, he promised to get rid of Obamacare, and as soon as the election was over, he stated that, "ACA was the law of the land". That alone should retire the sob.

Online Oceander

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« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2013, 07:03:21 PM »
I hope someone, anyone, runs against Boehner, and at the least, republicans remove him as speaker. In 2012, he promised to get rid of Obamacare, and as soon as the election was over, he stated that, "ACA was the law of the land". That alone should retire the sob.

Who would you prefer to see as Speaker?  I'm not being snide, I'm asking an honest question.

Offline xfreeper

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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2013, 07:30:07 PM »
it is the government that a majority of our fellow citizens legitimately elected.

Can't be legitimately elected if the system is corrupt and rigged. We have become a government with a country rather than a country with a government. Also, who elected by a majority of our fellow citizens?

Online Oceander

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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 07:38:00 PM »
it is the government that a majority of our fellow citizens legitimately elected.

Can't be legitimately elected if the system is corrupt and rigged. We have become a government with a country rather than a country with a government. Also, who elected by a majority of our fellow citizens?

But you haven't provided any real evidence of systemic corruption or rigging.  Until you do, the system must be treated as essentially legitimate.

Offline happyg

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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 07:42:39 PM »
Who would you prefer to see as Speaker?  I'm not being snide, I'm asking an honest question.

Issa comes to mind. He would push for investigations into F&F, Benghazi, and NSA. He has more guts than Boehner to do some heavy lifting.

Offline xfreeper

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« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 07:54:06 PM »
But you haven't provided any real evidence of systemic corruption or rigging.  Until you do, the system must be treated as essentially legitimate.

At this point if you don't believe there is any corruption in our government I don't believe there is anything I could say or provide that would change that. That would explain a rather idealistic view of the election process though. To the other point, I suppose as long as we are willing to treat the system as essentially legitimate, we will have the government we deserve

Online Oceander

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« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 08:07:49 PM »
At this point if you don't believe there is any corruption in our government I don't believe there is anything I could say or provide that would change that. That would explain a rather idealistic view of the election process though. To the other point, I suppose as long as we are willing to treat the system as essentially legitimate, we will have the government we deserve

That's just silly.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and if you cannot muster any evidence whatsoever for your claims, then why on Earth would I feel obliged to agree with you?  Beyond that, however, I never said the system is entirely free of corruption, all I said was that - at least with respect to the election, and re-election, of Boehner - there is no real evidence that corruption is so endemic that it is the sole determinant of the outcome of elections.  Also, one of the problems here is that we're using the term "corruption" without having unpacked it at all to make sure that we're actually talking about the same thing.

As for idealistic views of the election process: physician heal thyself.  The belief that a "legitimate" election would necessarily produce the results you prefer and, conversely, that the failure of the election process to produce the results you prefer is proof that the system is illegitimate, is the idealistic view.  My view is precisely that even legitimate elections do not produce theoretically or ideologically pure results, but a hodge-podge that is both contradictory and incoherent to one degree or another.  One easy example of this is the fact that even if a majority of the entire population believes that the current crop of politicians should be thrown out and replaced, an election may still produce little or no turnover in politicians because, while each individual voter may believe that we should "throw the bums out," they are also very likely to believe that their own politician is just fine and not one of the "bums" who need throwing out.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 08:16:20 PM »

Offline rustynail

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« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 08:18:33 PM »
You are going to make John cry.

Online truth_seeker

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« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 09:14:29 PM »
I hope someone, anyone, runs against Boehner, and at the least, republicans remove him as speaker. In 2012, he promised to get rid of Obamacare, and as soon as the election was over, he stated that, "ACA was the law of the land". That alone should retire the sob.
Question: Do you know how many members of the House GOP, under Boehner's leadership, voted to approve Obamacare?

When you find that answer, is that what you want the House GOP under Boehner to do, or not?
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Fishrrman

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« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 09:16:42 PM »
[[ boehner epitomizes an illegitimate government ]]

I don't know if he does or not. But I will say this, without equivocation:

What Mr. Boehner epitomizes is "The Vichy Republican" of the twenty-first century.

And he ain't the only one in that Foggy Bottom snake pit!

Offline Fishrrman

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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 09:18:38 PM »
[[ Who would you prefer to see as Speaker?  I'm not being snide, I'm asking an honest question. ]]

How 'bout Trey Gowdy?

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 09:21:18 PM »
[[ Who would you prefer to see as Speaker?  I'm not being snide, I'm asking an honest question. ]]

How 'bout Trey Gowdy?

Trey would be great - which means the odds are slim and none.  What we need is a speaker with leadership ability instead of gonads the size of BB's.


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