Author Topic: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough  (Read 1397 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« on: December 18, 2013, 11:18:35 AM »

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 11:24:40 AM »

Poor Dr. Wolf still thinks that politics is a bottom-up process and we only need the 'right people' to restore our country...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Online Oceander

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 11:59:33 AM »
Ronald Reagan also understood the art of compromise and the wisdom behind the adage that you could get a lot done if you didn't care who got the credit.  Without those, you'll have a hard time getting anywhere.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 12:11:50 PM »
Is this candidate for or against farm subsidies?
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 12:12:07 PM »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 04:07:21 AM »
Course, the real power-brokers tried to kill him early in his presidency.  That seemed to settle him down and make him more rabbit-like...

Really you think Reagan settled down in the first few months of his presidency?  how unique.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Offline MBB1984

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 11:39:04 AM »
Ronald Reagan also understood the art of compromise and the wisdom behind the adage that you could get a lot done if you didn't care who got the credit.  Without those, you'll have a hard time getting anywhere.

More important than compromise, Reagan was a great negotiator.  He almost always got a good deal and had the political skills to appeal directly to the voters to achieve a good deal.

Most of the House Republicans are willing to do anything to compromise to avoid a potential shutdown.   And, they get a raw deal.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
Really you think Reagan settled down in the first few months of his presidency?  how unique.

I suppose that's one way to misinterpret what I wrote...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 03:17:12 PM »
I suppose that's one way to misinterpret what I wrote...

Don't waste your time  - he HATES Reagan...

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 03:31:04 PM »
Don't waste your time  - he HATES Reagan...

Check...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 03:38:59 PM »
We shall never be abandoned by Heaven while we act worthy of its aid ~~ Samuel Adams

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 03:44:20 PM »
Don't waste your time  - he HATES Reagan...
Mindreading? Putting words in other people's mouths?

I seriously doubt anybody here hates President Ronald Reagan, so you are most likely WRONG.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 03:51:22 PM »
Mindreading? Putting words in other people's mouths?

I seriously doubt anybody here hates President Ronald Reagan, so you are most likely WRONG.

Well then you need to read what he has said.  He thinks Reagan was one of the worst presidents ever and makes no bones about his utter contempt for Reagan and conservatives as a whole.

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2013, 04:32:58 PM »
Well then you need to read what he has said.  He thinks Reagan was one of the worst presidents ever and makes no bones about his utter contempt for Reagan and conservatives as a whole.
Liar!
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2013, 10:22:06 PM »
Really you think Reagan settled down in the first few months of his presidency?  how unique.

How do you catch a rare rabbit ("RR")?

Unique up on him!!

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2013, 10:23:37 PM »
Well then you need to read what he has said.  He thinks Reagan was one of the worst presidents ever and makes no bones about his utter contempt for Reagan and conservatives as a whole.

The last time I mentioned Reagan was in Oct.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,116730.msg471634.html#msg471634

I wrote:

I hate to bad mouth Reagan because I think he was one of the top 5 US Presidents of all time, but since he is the conservative gold standard...Do you think Reagan compromised his principles just a little by signing all those budgets?  As I recall he promise to reduce the deficit and national debt.

I can see how you confused that with "I hate Reagan" cause you're a liar.  Like Obama.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2013, 10:24:33 PM »
How do you catch a rare rabbit ("RR")?

Unique up on him!!

You know how you catch a tame rabbit?

Tame way.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Online Oceander

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2013, 10:26:13 PM »
You know how you catch a tame rabbit?

Tame way.

:bigsilly:

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2013, 10:27:43 PM »
The last time I mentioned Reagan was in Oct.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,116730.msg471634.html#msg471634

I wrote:

I hate to bad mouth Reagan because I think he was one of the top 5 US Presidents of all time, but since he is the conservative gold standard...Do you think Reagan compromised his principles just a little by signing all those budgets?  As I recall he promise to reduce the deficit and national debt.

I can see how you confused that with "I hate Reagan" cause you're a liar.  Like Obama.

Rap has a selective memory.  Meaning, she remembers some of what you said, and just makes up the rest to fit her argument of the moment.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Oceander

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2013, 10:43:40 PM »
The last time I mentioned Reagan was in Oct.
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,116730.msg471634.html#msg471634

I wrote:

I hate to bad mouth Reagan because I think he was one of the top 5 US Presidents of all time, but since he is the conservative gold standard...Do you think Reagan compromised his principles just a little by signing all those budgets?  As I recall he promise to reduce the deficit and national debt.

I can see how you confused that with "I hate Reagan" cause you're a liar.  Like Obama.

Actually, Reagan did compromise some of his principles, and that isn't a knock against him because, to all appearances, he was quite well-versed in the art of compromise - which is one of the fundamental arts of the overarching art of politics - and it must have been his judgment that the principles he generally compromised on were those that could be compromised without fundamentally compromising who he was politically or the broader goals he was trying to reach, and in each situation, that what he got back in return was worth the cost of the compromise.

Both today's republican moderates and today's republican conservatives have utterly failed at this most basic skill of politics; the conservatives because they refuse to consider compromising even a jot, tittle, or iota, even on things that are of secondary or tertiary importance; the moderates because they are all too willing to compromise, at the drop of a hat, and on anything and everything, just so long as they're given some of the credit for being "good guys".  Neither group really knows the value of one's complete repetoire of values, principles, and goals, nor how to sort them so that those that cannot be compromised at all are separated from the rest, and the rest are sorted in order as to how easily each can be compromised and what "value" must be received in return to make that compromise worth the while.

Having said all this, just because Reagan was a master at the art of compromise does not mean that he didn't make mistakes and that he didn't compromise some things that, in retrospect, he should not have compromised.  On the other hand, Reagan would not be nearly as famous as a President if he hadn't been willing to compromise as and where necessary to achieve the more important goals he sought to achieve.

That, I think, is the true take-away from Reagan, and the aspect of his presidency that should be studied and copied, because those skills are instrumental, not substantive, and can be applied in a wide variety of situations; given that the second decade of the twenty-first century is not the same as the ninth decade (1980s) of the twentieth century, that is where the real value of Reagan's example lies:  his political tools - the things he used to work his political magic - and not so much every jot and tittle of his substantive politics.

Unfortunately, on this measure both republican conservatives and moderates have failed utterly.  Depending on one's particular persuasion, the one group is better than the other depending on whether you prefer martyrdom over capitulation, or vice-versa.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 10:44:26 PM by Oceander »

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 04:01:42 AM »
Unfortunately, on this measure both republican conservatives and moderates have failed utterly.  Depending on one's particular persuasion, the one group is better than the other depending on whether you prefer martyrdom over capitulation, or vice-versa.
I agree with much of what you wrote except your conclusion.  We don't live in a black and white vacuum of conservative or moderate.  Where all conservatives are martyrs and all moderates just want to make friends.  And our ability to satisfy the needs of our voters must be judged on a measure that includes the natural ebb and flow of voter sentiment. 

What I mean is you can look at the current discord within the party...and then look at how together the rats are and get an impression of failure for the GOP.  But it maybe the current soul searching for a cohesive GOP message is a logical function of process to get us on track with the voters.  The animosity between the two wings of the GOP might be natural for a minority party poised for a triumphant return.   
Quote
All life demands struggle. Those who have everything given to them become lazy, selfish, and insensitive to the real values of life. The very striving and hard work that we so constantly try to avoid is the major building block in the person we are today.
Pope Paul VI
I believe this country is ready to swing to the right again.  I think we get their faster with slow incremental change because the voters don't like to be rushed into stuff and they push back.

In Nov I wrote this to you
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,118976.msg482112.html#msg482112

With only one exception the parties have traded the White House every 8 years since 1944.
1944-1952 FDR/Truman
1952-1960 Ike
1960-1968 JFK/Johnson
1968-1976 Nixon/Ford
1976-1984 Carter/Reagan-one exception with extraordinary economic malaise
1984-1992 Reagan/Bush
1992-2000 Clinton
2000-2008 Bush
2008-2016 Obama

I believe the GOP will dominate in 2016, but I also believe the conservative wing of the GOP has accelerated to the right too fast and has lost sight of the center.  The centrist wing could bend to the right so the GOP can keep the party in balance...or the center may be a break on rightward momentum.  I'm not using the best words to express this but I'm too tired to polish it.  The point is conservatives will likely fare no better in fielding a popular candidate in 2016 than most any other election.

Conservative or moderate rule is acceptable rule to me when compaired to rat rule.  I can happily vote for any GOP candidate.  I'd take Ted Cruz over Hillary any day.  And I sure wish McCain or Romney had beat Obama.  But I didn't expect it.  What I expect next is 8 years of a GOP President and God willing a GOP Senate for what ever years are needed to pack the SCOTUS.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 07:59:23 PM »
I agree with much of what you wrote except your conclusion.  We don't live in a black and white vacuum of conservative or moderate.  Where all conservatives are martyrs and all moderates just want to make friends.  And our ability to satisfy the needs of our voters must be judged on a measure that includes the natural ebb and flow of voter sentiment. 

What I mean is you can look at the current discord within the party...and then look at how together the rats are and get an impression of failure for the GOP.  But it maybe the current soul searching for a cohesive GOP message is a logical function of process to get us on track with the voters.  The animosity between the two wings of the GOP might be natural for a minority party poised for a triumphant return.   I believe this country is ready to swing to the right again.  I think we get their faster with slow incremental change because the voters don't like to be rushed into stuff and they push back.

In Nov I wrote this to you
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,118976.msg482112.html#msg482112

With only one exception the parties have traded the White House every 8 years since 1944.
1944-1952 FDR/Truman
1952-1960 Ike
1960-1968 JFK/Johnson
1968-1976 Nixon/Ford
1976-1984 Carter/Reagan-one exception with extraordinary economic malaise
1984-1992 Reagan/Bush
1992-2000 Clinton
2000-2008 Bush
2008-2016 Obama

I believe the GOP will dominate in 2016, but I also believe the conservative wing of the GOP has accelerated to the right too fast and has lost sight of the center.  The centrist wing could bend to the right so the GOP can keep the party in balance...or the center may be a break on rightward momentum.  I'm not using the best words to express this but I'm too tired to polish it.  The point is conservatives will likely fare no better in fielding a popular candidate in 2016 than most any other election.

Conservative or moderate rule is acceptable rule to me when compaired to rat rule.  I can happily vote for any GOP candidate.  I'd take Ted Cruz over Hillary any day.  And I sure wish McCain or Romney had beat Obama.  But I didn't expect it.  What I expect next is 8 years of a GOP President and God willing a GOP Senate for what ever years are needed to pack the SCOTUS.

I wouldn't disagree with you.  I agree that things aren't binary - only computers are - and that there is a spectrum in the GOP that runs from just right of center to far right (i.e., conservative) and, even within one recognized subgroup there are differences; e.g., while they both might fall under the general category of "conservative," fiscal conservatives and social conservatives can be very different beasties.

I would also agree that a certain amount of dissension right now is healthy - certainly far healthier in the long run than the lockstep group-think of the democrats - but I do think that it's getting a little out of hand and, in part, I think it demonstrates that the GOP as a whole has lost far too much of the skills needed to make wise compromises.  I also think that fault exists all across the spectrum represented by the GOP.

Those closer to the conservative side have probably tried to push things too far, too fast, but those closer to the center side (i.e., generally, the so-called "moderates") have given away too much far too cheaply and have become appeasers and enablers to the democrats/liberals.  And I would assert that much of the fault for these failings comes down to the woeful lack of ability to make artful compromises, both within the GOP and with the democrats/liberals.

Offline Slide Rule

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2013, 11:20:29 AM »
Liar!

Over the top.

Perhaps you are looking for a vacation from the forum.


If I were a moderator, that would be my call.


« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 11:23:09 AM by Slide Rule »
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Online Oceander

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2013, 12:15:13 PM »

Over the top.

Perhaps you are looking for a vacation from the forum.


If I were a moderator, that would be my call.




Moderators do as moderators do, but I would have to say that, from what I've seen, that is a fairly innocuous statement that wouldn't get a second's glance from a moderator.

Offline Once-Ler

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Re: Sorry GOP, an 'R' Is Not Enough
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2013, 07:06:24 PM »
Those closer to the conservative side have probably tried to push things too far, too fast, but those closer to the center side (i.e., generally, the so-called "moderates") have given away too much far too cheaply and have become appeasers and enablers to the democrats/liberals.  And I would assert that much of the fault for these failings comes down to the woeful lack of ability to make artful compromises, both within the GOP and with the democrats/liberals.

If one comes from the perspective of conservatism then one would see the compromises of centrists as giving away the farm.  From the view of centrists it's a logical concession when voters have given the other party control of the Presidency and the Senate.  Not sure that is any different than what you wrote.  Past that I agree with you.

Have a Merry Christmas Oceander.  I feel like I get a gift when I read your thoughtful posts.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017


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