Author Topic: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist  (Read 605 times)

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Offline DCPatriot

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Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« on: December 15, 2013, 01:48:16 PM »
Pope Francis says he is no Marxist



Vatican City (AFP) - Pope Francis said he knew a lot of "good" Marxists but was no communist himself, following criticism of his diatribes against unfettered capitalism from conservative commentators in the United States.

"Marxist ideology is wrong. But in my life I have met a lot of Marxists who are good people, so I do not feel offended," Francis said in an interview with the Italian daily La Stampa published on Sunday.

He said his condemnations of the inequality caused by the current global economic system were not intended to be an expert analysis and were only a reiteration of the social doctrine of the Catholic Church.

"That does not mean being a Marxist," he said.

US radio host Rush Limbaugh labelled as "pure Marxism" a text published by the pope last month in which he warned that an unfair economic system "kills" and warned that unregulated capitalism was "a new tyranny".

more at:  http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-says-no-marxist-094958904.html

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 01:50:15 PM »
Who can dispute the awesome power of Rush Limbaugh's EIB Network?
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"I am responsible for what I say.  I am not responsible for what you understand."  ...me

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 02:08:43 PM »
Who can dispute the awesome power of Rush Limbaugh's EIB Network?

Rush is wrong about the Pope.  Period.  All Francis is doing is reiterating Catholic social teaching.

He's also wrong when he says he doesn't like to talk about himself.  That's practically all he does these days.
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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 02:53:03 PM »
Let's just read the pope's words and draw our own conclusions:
Quote
When you pick up a volume of the social teaching of the Church you are amazed at what it condemns. For example, it condemns economic liberalism. Everyone thinks that the Church is against Communism, but it is as opposed to that system as it is to the savage economic liberalism which exists today. That is not Christian either and we cannot accept it. We have to search for equality of opportunities and rights, to fight for social benefits, a dignified retirement, holidays, rest, freedom for trade unions. All of these issues create social justice. There should be no have-nots and I want to emphasise that the worst wretchedness is not to be able to earn your bread, not to have the dignity of work.
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Offline EC

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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 02:55:11 PM »
Here, Rush. If the duty of charity and care, love and forgiveness, humility and the Lord is Marxist:

SIGN ME UP!
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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 03:51:40 PM »
Let's just read the pope's words and draw our own conclusions:
Quote
When you pick up a volume of the social teaching of the Church you are amazed at what it condemns. For example, it condemns economic liberalism. Everyone thinks that the Church is against Communism, but it is as opposed to that system as it is to the savage economic liberalism which exists today. That is not Christian either and we cannot accept it. We have to search for equality of opportunities and rights, to fight for social benefits, a dignified retirement, holidays, rest, freedom for trade unions. All of these issues create social justice. There should be no have-nots and I want to emphasise that the worst wretchedness is not to be able to earn your bread, not to have the dignity of work.
link


(1) the Pope's remarks do not reject marxism; I'm not saying he is, just that his remarks have to be read carefully, like Obama's, and when you do so, he leaves the conclusion viz. marxism as what "everyone thinks", which is not the same as confirmation.

(2) the Pope is great on the general principles, but is a little mis/un-informed when it comes to the details:

(a) Trade unions - certainly in the mold of unions in the US today - do not create social justice, they create social injustice; they are parasites that use the power of the government to extract wealth from others that they cannot otherwise earn on their own merits; that is, they're thieves.

(b) What "savage economic liberalism" is he referring to?  The so-called economic liberalism that exists in many countries - which is most likely what he's railing against - is certainly not capitalism or free market economics because, at a minimum, those countries typically lack any really robust system for protecting the private rights, especially property rights, of all individuals equally and their economies are generally rife with crony capitalism - which isn't capitalism at all - in which certain private interests have developed an incestuous relationship with those in power to their mutual benefit and at the heavy expense of everyone else.  If the Pope really is interested in social justice - and I believe he is - then he should be a supporter of real economic liberalism because you cannot achieve any real measure of social justice until everyone is free to participate voluntarily in free markets.

(c) when he speaks of "equality of opportunities" is he really speaking solely of opportunities - so-called negative freedom, or the freedom to do - or is he really thinking of equality of outcome - frequently those who speak blithely of the equality of opportunities really mean the equality of outcomes because they implicitly, and unconsciously, believe that outcomes automatically become equal when opportunities are equal.  That believe is demonstrably untrue and one hopes the Pope hasn't fallen into that fallacy.

(d) if the ultimate wretchedness is to not be able to have a job and to be unable to support one's self, then he hasn't spent sufficient time observing the American welfare system.  The system incentivizes not working and strips unemployment of most of its wretchedness.  Furthermore, the Pope doesn't seem cognizant of the issues of free ridership and the tragedy of the commons.  It is one thing to say that we should support the unfortunate, it is another thing entirely to ignore the fact that human beings - being fallen creatures - will manipulate and take advantage of most such support programs, perverting them into what they were not intended to be.  The Pope appears to be ignoring the Church's own teachings on the sinfulness of humanity.


Offline EC

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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 04:01:03 PM »
Quote
(c) when he speaks of "equality of opportunities" is he really speaking solely of opportunities - so-called negative freedom, or the freedom to do - or is he really thinking of equality of outcome - frequently those who speak blithely of the equality of opportunities really mean the equality of outcomes because they implicitly, and unconsciously, believe that outcomes automatically become equal when opportunities are equal.  That believe is demonstrably untrue and one hopes the Pope hasn't fallen into that fallacy.

I reckon a guy who went from nightclub bouncer to Pope means the former, not the latter.
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Re: Pope Francis says he is no Marxist
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 09:30:20 PM »
I reckon a guy who went from nightclub bouncer to Pope means the former, not the latter.

I wouldn't be quite so sanguine in making that assumption.  Look at the number of silicon valley type entrepreneurs who, having made their nut the old-fashioned way - by the sweat of their brow - want to deny that ability to others by foisting old-style socialism on this country.


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