Author Topic: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism  (Read 1931 times)

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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 01:25:14 PM »
What the author doesn't come to realize that most so-called 'social' issues are actually just poorly sold liberty issues.  If we give up issues like abortion, it takes a philosophical foundation out of Conservatism. If you give up on the fundamental right of an individual to exist, for example, then what is the point of any other right?

We don't need to give up any of our values, we need to sell them better and realize we can't just preach to the choir. We need to sell them in a way that tells people even if they don't agree with anything, the foundation is in their best interest and it should be considered. We need to sell them this isn't just some old fashioned idea but a timeless idea that defends the individual over the system.

Offline olde north church

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 01:47:38 PM »
Well, I just saw some chucklehead is pushing Huckabee to run again.  Wonder who he will be stalking horse for this time?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 01:49:46 PM »
The results from the Virginia election says just the opposite of this article.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 02:09:35 PM »
Well, I just saw some chucklehead is pushing Huckabee to run again.  Wonder who he will be stalking horse for this time?

Huckabee isn't a 'Social Conservative', he is a Nanny-Conservative

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2013, 02:11:40 PM »
Huckabee isn't a 'Social Conservative', he is a Nanny-Conservative

EXACTLY... his spending record on Arkansas is terrible.

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
What the author doesn't come to realize that most so-called 'social' issues are actually just poorly sold liberty issues.  If we give up issues like abortion, it takes a philosophical foundation out of Conservatism. If you give up on the fundamental right of an individual to exist, for example, then what is the point of any other right?

We don't need to give up any of our values, we need to sell them better and realize we can't just preach to the choir. We need to sell them in a way that tells people even if they don't agree with anything, the foundation is in their best interest and it should be considered. We need to sell them this isn't just some old fashioned idea but a timeless idea that defends the individual over the system.
The views you are saying to "sell" to these people have already been rejected by them. They are not interested in being "true conservatives" as presently defined.

They are libertarian on social issues. Previous "selling" failed. What have conservatives got, that will persuade them now, that did not before?

 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2013, 02:17:20 PM »
The views you are saying to "sell" to these people have already been rejected by them. They are not interested in being "true conservatives" as presently defined.

They are libertarian on social issues. Previous "selling" failed. What have conservatives got, that will persuade them now, that did not before?

Actually not. Specifically abortion, Gen X through the Millennials are more pro-life than their baby-boomer parents.

http://www.birthmotherministries.org/for-volunteers/millennials-today-s-most-pro-life-generation.htm

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/generation-y-the-pro-life-generation/

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2013, 02:21:43 PM »
The results from the Virginia election says just the opposite of this article.
The result from the Virginia election was the social conservative LOST. Trying to spin a LOSS into a positive is denial of the highest order.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline olde north church

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2013, 02:21:56 PM »
The views you are saying to "sell" to these people have already been rejected by them. They are not interested in being "true conservatives" as presently defined.

They are libertarian on social issues. Previous "selling" failed. What have conservatives got, that will persuade them now, that did not before?

A "true" conservative?  There is no such thing as a "TRUE" Conservative.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 02:26:12 PM »
The result from the Virginia election was the social conservative LOST. Trying to spin a LOSS into a positive is denial of the highest order.

You are trying to convince yourself that he lost because he is a social conservative, the after-election analysis states otherwise........  but the question remains.  Why in this day and age with the 3D Ultrasound technology are you so hot to trot to push abortion? 

BTW Hannity had a panel of Millennial voters two weeks ago Friday on his show - and they overwhelmingly were against abortion...   The generation which pushed this on society under the guise of woman's right to choose is the older, dying generation... Sandra Fluke is just that a fluke - the younger generation is more pro-life.

Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 02:40:25 PM »
There are essentially libertarian arguments to be made by conservatives on social issues, and I believe they ought to do so.

Mandated Federal funding for abortion and contraception ought to be opposed by libertarians, as should the Democrats' attempts to force state governments and private entities to recognize gay marriage.

If you believe that people ought to make their own decisions about their own lives and property, then the Progressive/Democrat preference for state control and regulation ought not sit well with you.

Additionally, I think that Republicans need to learn the language with which to make arguments about moral and ethical issues to audiences of people not used to hearing them (largely, our younger citizens). This implies both a knowledge and understanding of first principles as well as an ability to employ reason instead of emotion
in making one's case, while using real world examples that make one's ideas understandable on a personal level.   

Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2013, 02:43:51 PM »
There are essentially libertarian arguments to be made by conservatives on social issues, and I believe they ought to do so.

Mandated Federal funding for abortion and contraception ought to be opposed by libertarians, as should the Democrats' attempts to force state governments and private entities to recognize gay marriage.

If you believe that people ought to make their own decisions about their own lives and property, then the Progressive/Democrat preference for state control and regulation ought not sit well with you.

Additionally, I think that Republicans need to learn the language with which to make arguments about moral and ethical issues to audiences of people not used to hearing them (largely, our younger citizens). This implies both a knowledge and understanding of first principles as well as an ability to employ reason instead of emotion
in making one's case, while using real world examples that make one's ideas understandable on a personal level.

A good Libertarian argument against 'gay marriage' would simply ask if they trust the government keeping lists of names of those who are gay. I find it shuts down the support very quickly.

Of course, the standard Libertarian position isn't to support or oppose gay marriage but to get the government of the marriage business.

I do agree we need to work on our language on the issues. Much of what I have seen regarding the marriage issue is asinine. Stupid slogans like 'Adam ad Steve' etc. There are ways to sell it and ways to come across wrong. We too often lean towards the latter.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 02:45:12 PM by AbaraXas »

Online andy58-in-nh

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 02:53:55 PM »
A good Libertarian argument against 'gay marriage' would simply ask if they trust the government keeping lists of names of those who are gay. I find it shuts down the support very quickly.

Of course, the standard Libertarian position isn't to support or oppose gay marriage but to get the government of the marriage business.

I do agree we need to work on our language on the issues. Much of what I have seen regarding the marriage issue is asinine. Stupid slogans like 'Adam ad Steve' etc. There are ways to sell it and ways to come across wrong. We too often lean towards the latter.

I pretty much agree. I happen to support civil unions and oppose gay "marriage" because it is an impossibility. Just the same, I would prefer that government be constrained to approving voluntary personal unions (and the legal rights and duties that flow from them) while leaving marriage to the sanction of appropriate religious bodies.  I think that would help clarify the issue, as when government authorities attempt to force religious organizations to act in opposition to their faith as regards whether or not to sanction voluntary, personal behavioral choices.
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 03:08:07 PM »
You are trying to convince yourself that he lost because he is a social conservative, the after-election analysis states otherwise........ 
Your post election analysis states he lost by less, but he LOST nonetheless.

You could spin Goldwater's, McGovern's, Dukakis' losses, as a victories!! Cuccinelli got a lower percent, than Dukakis !!

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »
Your post election analysis states he lost by less, but he LOST nonetheless.

You could spin Goldwater's, McGovern's, Dukakis' losses, as a victories!! Cuccinelli got a lower percent, than Dukakis !!

You are stuck on he lost. I am discussing the analysis showing what gave him his last minute surge.

Apples and Oranges. 

What the analysis showed was -  contrary to the spinmeisters post-election claims that it was Obamacare driving his last minute surge it turns out it was actually abortion which drove the last minute surge in the right direction. 

In fact... he backed off abortion because people told him it was a losing proposition.  Analysis indicates backing off was a bad move and staying with it could have changed the outcome of this election. since his return to it at the very end drove the numbers in the right direction....

The fact is you learn things even from LOSING elections  - if you had actually read the article I linked here you would see this is the crux of the article - to learn something about what voters really think - not what the spinsters claim.

Offline olde north church

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 03:32:07 PM »

...

In fact... he backed off abortion because people told him it was a losing proposition. Analysis indicates backing off was a bad move and staying with it could have changed the outcome of this election. since his return to it at the very end drove the numbers in the right direction....



Who told him it was a losing proposition?  Does he believe what he believes or does he believe what fits an image?  Perhaps he should jettison the advisors and think about what is important to him.  People can see a phony from a mile a way.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 03:36:02 PM »
Who told him it was a losing proposition?  Does he believe what he believes or does he believe what fits an image?  Perhaps he should jettison the advisors and think about what is important to him.  People can see a phony from a mile a way.

Frankly I think it is the advisers who are causing more damage than good in our elections - look at Romney. His own wife and son finally said enough of the advisers - let Mitt be Mitt...   these advisers don't care if these candidates win, they only care which candidate has the deepest pocket they can pick for a few months to a year or more....

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 04:19:50 PM »
You are stuck on he lost. ....
How stupid and unsophisticated, for me to not appreciate the analysis and nuance of losing.

Sorry, I AM stuck on he lost. I want Republicans to defeat democrats. I don't want to fail in that pursuit, because the Republican is viewed as too far away from the mainstream, and/or allows himself to be so portrayed.

 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 04:47:34 PM »
How stupid and unsophisticated, for me to not appreciate the analysis and nuance of losing.

Sorry, I AM stuck on he lost. I want Republicans to defeat democrats. I don't want to fail in that pursuit, because the Republican is viewed as too far away from the mainstream, and/or allows himself to be so portrayed.

Fine then you stick to the line that served Karl Rove so well in losing a lot more elections in 2010 and 2012 than the Tea Party you love to hate.

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2013, 04:59:20 PM »
Fine then you stick to the line that served Karl Rove so well in losing a lot more elections in 2010 and 2012 than the Tea Party you love to hate.
You're trying to read minds again, without a license. I'll speak for myself.

I liked the original intent of the Tea Party movement-sticking to fiscal issues period. I did not like some of the candidates that screwed things up, or the fact it is now screwed up, because of their unpopular social positions.

Analyze that.

 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2013, 05:06:37 PM »
You're trying to read minds again, without a license. I'll speak for myself.

I liked the original intent of the Tea Party movement-sticking to fiscal issues period. I did not like some of the candidates that screwed things up, or the fact it is now screwed up, because of their unpopular social positions.

Analyze that.

That is just it.  The Tea Party has not morphed into taking social positions.  However CONSERVATIVES are naturally conservative - both fiscally and socially  - thus many conservatives also consider themselves Tea Party because of the Tea Party fiscal conservatism.  Social positions are unpopular with you, they are not to the majority of conservatives.   Most of us think it abhorent to murder babies and while many of us are in favor of civil unions many of us do not support "marriage" between gay couples and the post-election analysis in Virgina says abortion was a positive - not a negative - in the race.. and it was such a negative for McAuliff that it came very close to actually costing him the election.

You still haven't answered why you are down with abortion and why it it such a major issue with YOU.

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2013, 05:15:05 PM »

You still haven't answered why you are down with abortion and why it it such a major issue with YOU.
There are a range of abortion positions which have been held over the years, and I listed six (6) candidates that held abortion should not be legal EVEN in cases of rape. They all lost.

I stated that position was way, way at odds with public opinion, in which by 77% to 22& people think abortion should be legal.

Now if you tell me over and over, try to read my mind, analyze for me----that the GOP will come out well with such positions, I'll object.

Plain and simple, that is it.

Hopefully the Obamacare screw-ups by the administration will prove to be a windfall for the GOP, if they don't screw up themselves and change the dynamics between now and Nov. 2014.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2013, 05:25:02 PM »


Hopefully the Obamacare screw-ups by the administration will prove to be a windfall for the GOP, if they don't screw up themselves and change the dynamics between now and Nov. 2014.

The GOP is going to blow itself up by pushing through amnesty.  All the positives it is gaining from OCare will be blown out of the water.


Actually the pro-life and pro-choice crowd pretty much zero each other out. The illegal under most circumstances carry the majority here







Offline Rapunzel

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Re: To Attract Millennials, GOP Must Dial Back the Social Conservatism
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »


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