Author Topic: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'  (Read 1447 times)

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Offline flowers

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San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« on: December 10, 2013, 02:46:59 PM »


Offline Rapunzel

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 02:58:13 PM »
Wow.. the full article at American Thinker is scary as hell............ I imagine Oceander will find it interesting...........

and where in the hell is the ISSA investigation in this?????????  at this point I hold the GOP as responsible as anyone as they have totally dropped the ball.

Offline Relic

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 03:16:31 PM »
Wow.. the full article at American Thinker is scary as hell............ I imagine Oceander will find it interesting...........

and where in the hell is the ISSA investigation in this?????????  at this point I hold the GOP as responsible as anyone as they have totally dropped the ball.

Get some cameras, Issa will show up, might even setup an inquiry.

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 03:22:41 PM »
We will never again be a truly free people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist Income Tax and the IRS!

http://fairtax.org

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 03:25:42 PM »

Offline Oceander

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 08:03:18 PM »
The income tax is not "marxist" any more than long hair being "girl's hair."  In fact, taxes on income have a long and storied history that has nothing to do with marxism; they were typically imposed under the label of excise taxes on the practice of certain professions or trades, and were also often labeled "privilege taxes" because they were imposed on the "privilege" of being permitted to carry on a profession or trade that was licensed or regulated by the government.  Wikipedia has a short description of privilege taxes.  For example, the corporate income tax was upheld by the Supreme Court (the same court that had found the personal income tax to be unconstitutional) on the ground that it was an (indirect) tax on the privilege of doing business in the corporate form.

In point of fact, an income tax eo nomine - with progressive rates no less - was imposed in Britain in 1799 by William Pitt the Younger.  The UK Revenue & Customs agency even has a brief history of it here (this is the UK gov't's archived version): http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/history/taxhis1.htm

Since Marx wasn't born until May 5th, 1818, it necessarily follows that, if anything, he copied the income tax from pre-marxist English law; it certainly didn't happen the other way 'round.  I would note that Pitt's income tax did not simply spring into existence with out any connection to earlier English legal and cultural history, so it necessarily follows that the same sources that gave rise to Pitt's income tax were imported into US law at the ratification of the Constitution, when English common law as it then stood was taken up as source-law for the American states.

To put it bluntly:  Marx was a johnny-come-lately to the income tax party and he brought very little that was innovative or original to that party.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:18:05 PM by Oceander »

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 08:40:10 PM »
The income tax is not "marxist" any more than long hair being "girl's hair."  In fact, taxes on income have a long and storied history that has nothing to do with marxism; they were typically imposed under the label of excise taxes on the practice of certain professions or trades, and were also often labeled "privilege taxes" because they were imposed on the "privilege" of being permitted to carry on a profession or trade that was licensed or regulated by the government.  Wikipedia has a short description of privilege taxes.  For example, the corporate income tax was upheld by the Supreme Court (the same court that had found the personal income tax to be unconstitutional) on the ground that it was an (indirect) tax on the privilege of doing business in the corporate form.

In point of fact, an income tax eo nomine - with progressive rates no less - was imposed in Britain in 1799 by William Pitt the Younger.  The UK Revenue & Customs agency even has a brief history of it here (this is the UK gov't's archived version): http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/history/taxhis1.htm

Since Marx wasn't born until May 5th, 1818, it necessarily follows that, if anything, he copied the income tax from pre-marxist English law; it certainly didn't happen the other way 'round.  I would note that Pitt's income tax did not simply spring into existence with out any connection to earlier English legal and cultural history, so it necessarily follows that the same sources that gave rise to Pitt's income tax were imported into US law at the ratification of the Constitution, when English common law as it then stood was taken up as source-law for the American states.

To put it bluntly:  Marx was a johnny-come-lately to the income tax party and he brought very little that was innovative or original to that party.

Councilor you know very well that very little of what Marx and Engels endorsed in their little Manifesto was original but most everyone agrees that their endorsement of it DOES make it Marxist!

We've, you and I, have been over this ground before. I'll stand by what I said then.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,119297.msg483694.html#msg483694



« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:46:35 PM by Bigun »

Offline Oceander

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 08:43:32 PM »
Councilor you know very well that very little of what Marx and Engels endorsed in their little Manifesto was original but most everyone agrees that their endorsement of it DOES make it Marxist!

We've, you and I, have been over this ground before. I'll stand by what I said then.

Quote

    The income tax - or any other tax for that matter - is not "marxist"; it's simply a tax, one amongst many available to a sovereign.



So YOU say! I beg to differ given the fact that Marx and Engles specifically called for "a heavy progressive income tax" in their Manifesto
of the Communist Party I say that makes the income tax a decidedly Marxist tax!

Quoting from the section of that document in which they instruct fellow travelers on how they are to take over developed countries (second section Entitled PROLETARIANS AND COMMUNISTS:

..."The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionizing the mode of production.

These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class; if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all. "

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html

You are right about one thing though! There have been numerous instances of some form of income taxation throughout history and none of them, not a one, ended well for the people involved.


Sorry my friend.  The English invented and imposed the income tax - a graduated, progressive income tax no less - before Marx was even a glimmer in his parents' eyes.

The income tax is an English creation, not a marxist invention.  History makes that an undisputable fact.

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 08:48:48 PM »
Sorry my friend.  The English invented and imposed the income tax - a graduated, progressive income tax no less - before Marx was even a glimmer in his parents' eyes.

The income tax is an English creation, not a marxist invention.  History makes that an undisputable fact.

And you are wrong about that as well!

Forms of income taxation go as far back as ancient Egypt!

If you, or anyone else for that matter, is truly interested in the subject I highly recommend a copy of Charles Adams book For Good and Evil: The Impact of Taxes on the Course of Civilization



 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:54:41 PM by Bigun »

Offline Oceander

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 08:55:04 PM »
And you are wrong about that as well!

Forms of income taxation go as far back as ancient Egypt!

If you wish to split hairs, then I'll add the rhetorical flourish that "modern" income taxation - certainly in the English common law countries, which necessarily includes the United States - was the creation of the English.

That being said, you have just undermined and disproved your own thesis.  If even the ancient Egyptians taxed income, then there is simply no logical or rational way the income tax can be labelled as Marxian.

Thank you for proving my point.

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2013, 08:58:18 PM »
If you wish to split hairs, then I'll add the rhetorical flourish that "modern" income taxation - certainly in the English common law countries, which necessarily includes the United States - was the creation of the English.

That being said, you have just undermined and disproved your own thesis.  If even the ancient Egyptians taxed income, then there is simply no logical or rational way the income tax can be labelled as Marxian.

Thank you for proving my point.

What do YOU think makes ANYTHING "Marxist"?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Offline Oceander

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2013, 09:03:15 PM »
What do YOU think makes ANYTHING "Marxist"?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Since you're the proponent of the theory that the income tax is Marxist, the onus is on you to provide us with an explanation for what makes something Marxist.  In particular, since - as you very nicely pointed out - the income tax has a long, long, long history, 99% of which has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, you have the burden of proving that the income tax is Marxist and that the premise to be drawn from history, namely that the income tax is simply a tool, a tax that has been resorted to by governments across the entire political spectrum, is false.

So, let's not put the cart before the horse.  I'm standing on history - including the history that you've provided us with - and it's your job to prove that this history is bunk.

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 09:08:45 PM »
Since you're the proponent of the theory that the income tax is Marxist, the onus is on you to provide us with an explanation for what makes something Marxist.  In particular, since - as you very nicely pointed out - the income tax has a long, long, long history, 99% of which has nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, you have the burden of proving that the income tax is Marxist and that the premise to be drawn from history, namely that the income tax is simply a tool, a tax that has been resorted to by governments across the entire political spectrum, is false.

So, let's not put the cart before the horse.  I'm standing on history - including the history that you've provided us with - and it's your job to prove that this history is bunk.

I have already, several times in fact, said that anything endorsed by Marx and Engels in their Manifesto makes that thing a Marxist ideal and I do believe that most people agree with me on that point!


Offline Chieftain

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »

Offline Oceander

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 09:40:12 PM »
I have already, several times in fact, said that anything endorsed by Marx and Engels in their Manifesto makes that thing a Marxist ideal and I do believe that most people agree with me on that point!



Ahh.  But that simply invites intellectual incoherence.  William Pitt and the English endorsed the income tax, therefore it was an "independent Whig" ideal, or perhaps a "new Tory" ideal (Pitt referred to himself as the former, but was referred to by others as the latter).  The income tax was also endorsed in the US during the Civil War (to name at least one time it was endorsed), which, since it was by the North, would make it a Republican ideal (President Lincoln being a Republican and all).  It was also heartily endorsed by the Democrat party, which would make it a Democrat ideal.  In fact, since it was also adopted, hence endorsed, by the ancient Egyptians, then it is also necessarily an ancient Egyptian ideal.

In other words, under your own reasoning, the income tax is necessarily an ideal for just about every political flavor there's been in this world, which makes it intellectually incoherent, and dishonest, to label it as solely a Marxist ideal and to then argue that it should be abolished because it was a Marxist ideal.  However, since it wasn't just a Marxist ideal, but also an ancient Egyptian ideal, your argument for its abolition necessarily fails because you've provided no basis for the premise that ancient Egyptian ideals are as offensive as are Marxist ideals.

Your reasoning can be reduced, more or less, to a syllogism like so:

(1) Marxist ideals should be abolished,
(2) the income tax was a Marxist ideal,
(3) therefore, the income tax should be abolished.

That reasoning is flawed for the simple reason that it only stands if the income tax was solely a Marxist ideal - that is, if it was not an ideal of any other political view - and since, as you have been so kind to point out, it was also an ancient Egyptian ideal, the syllogism fails because premise (2) is false in the sense that it is not exclusive.

Here is a syllogism, with an extra premise, that demonstrates the fallacy:

(1) Marxist ideals should be abolished,
(2) Republican ideals should be adopted,
(3) the income tax is a Marxist ideal (based on the sources you've cited),
(4) the income tax is a Republican ideal (based on the fact that Republicans have endorsed the income tax),
(5) therefore, the income tax should be abolished and adopted.

If an argument leads to the conclusion P and not-P, then the argument is false.  Your argument - once the unstated premises are fleshed out - leads to precisely that sort of conclusion and is therefore similarly false.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 09:41:04 PM by Oceander »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 09:50:42 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 09:57:02 PM »

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 06:49:15 AM »
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 07:42:45 AM by Bigun »

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 07:11:21 AM »

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 01:29:16 PM »
Interesting post Bigun... so Laffer adopted his Laffer curve from federalist 21?  Hamilton has been proven correct.

Offline Bigun

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 02:23:44 PM »
Interesting post Bigun... so Laffer adopted his Laffer curve from federalist 21?  Hamilton has been proven correct.

It has been said that "There is nothing new under the sun".  I have come to believe that to be largely true.

Offline olde north church

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Re: San Diego Union Trib: 'WH Compounds IRS Abuse of Power'
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2013, 08:02:21 AM »
It has been said that "There is nothing new under the sun".  I have come to believe that to be largely true.

I have always believed the poor should be taxed.  There are a lot more poor than wealthy.  The rate could be less.  Sort of like an elephant on an ant hill.
I also don't believe property should be taxed.  If it is idle, it generates no income and is more of a strain on one's finances.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.


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