Author Topic: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples  (Read 1124 times)

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Offline Cincinnatus

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Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« on: December 09, 2013, 05:04:30 PM »
Orders? He orders this individual to do what he has chosen not to do? What kind of country are we living in?

Quote
DENVER (AP/CBS4) – A baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex ceremony must serve gay couples despite his religious beliefs or face fines, a judge said Friday.

The order from administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer said Masterpiece Cakeshop in suburban Denver discriminated against a couple “because of their sexual orientation by refusing to sell them a wedding cake for their same-sex marriage.”

The order says the cake-maker must “cease and desist from discriminating” against gay couples. Although the judge did not impose fines in this case, the business will face penalties if it continues to turn away gay couples who want to buy cakes.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed a complaint against shop owner Jack Phillips with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission last year on behalf of Charlie Craig, 33, and David Mullins, 29. The couple was married in Massachusetts and wanted a wedding cake to celebrate in Colorado.

“What the judge decided was that the baker’s religious beliefs don’t give him a right to discriminate and violate Colorado law,” Mark Silverstein with the ACLU told CBS4.

Mullins and Craig wanted to buy a cake in July 2012, but when Phillips found out the cake was to celebrate a gay wedding, he turned the couple of away, according to the complaint.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney for Masterpiece Cakeshop, said the judge’s order puts Phillips in an impossible position of going against his Christian faith.

“He can’t violate his conscience in order to collect a paycheck,” she said. “If Jack can’t make wedding cakes, he can’t continue to support his family. And in order to make wedding cakes, Jack must violate his belief system. That is a reprehensible choice. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.”...

“At first blush, it may seem reasonable that a private business should be able to refuse service to anyone it chooses,” Judge Spencer said in his written order. “This view, however, fails to take into account the cost to society and the hurt caused to persons who are denied service simply because of who they are.”

ACLU attorney Amanda Goad said no one is asking Phillips to change his religious beliefs.

“But treating gay people differently because of who they are is discrimination, plain and simple,” she said.


Forcing someone to violate their moral standards is not discriminatory, however.

How I loathe these people.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/12/06/judge-orders-colorado-cake-maker-to-serve-gay-couples/
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 05:06:43 PM »
Orders? He orders this individual to do what he has chosen not to do? What kind of country are we living in?

Forcing someone to violate their moral standards is not discriminatory, however.

How I loathe these people.


Businesses are going to have to learn to start giving really crappy product/service instead of objecting directly.

Oops...   :whistle:


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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2013, 05:24:14 PM »
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?


Offline Chieftain

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 05:28:20 PM »
Orders? He orders this individual to do what he has chosen not to do? What kind of country are we living in?

Forcing someone to violate their moral standards is not discriminatory, however.

How I loathe these people.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/12/06/judge-orders-colorado-cake-maker-to-serve-gay-couples/


I agree...the founders would be astonished that any of this is taking place in the country they founded.  Franklin would be saying "I told you so!!"


Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 05:45:13 PM »
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?
Well, for one, you can't choose your skin color. Partnering with someone is a choice in itself.
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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 05:59:14 PM »
Well, for one, you can't choose your skin color. Partnering with someone is a choice in itself.
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

Offline LambChop

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 06:21:22 PM »
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

Or baptism?  We may be the majority now, but in the not so far future? 

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 06:23:53 PM »
The countdown begins to when one of these "civil rights" commissions orders a Christian church to accomodate homosexuals' "wedding" ceremony. The First Amendment will not matter. Gay rights trump the Constitution.
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Offline Atomic Cow

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 06:28:58 PM »
The countdown begins to when one of these "civil rights" commissions orders a Christian church to accomodate homosexuals' "wedding" ceremony. The First Amendment will not matter. Gay rights trump the Constitution.

The end game has always been the outlawing of Christianity.  The left doesn't care about the bleep.  They're a means to an end.  Once the Christians are gone, the left will turn on the bleep like rabid dogs.
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Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 06:33:39 PM »
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?...What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

The difference is freedom. If I choose not to employ my labor and materials for whatever reason in a world that is truly free that is my right regardless of what you and administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer may feel about it. Just who are you and he to tell me I must do otherwise?

In addition, however, this case and others sprouting about involve freedom of conscience, a right at the very least implied in the 1st Amendment. Where are "homosexual rights" found in the Constitution and from whence arises the power that you and this judge have to order me to violate my own principles?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 06:34:44 PM by Cincinnatus »
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Online Millee

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 06:37:09 PM »
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

What if he did??? 

Does a Jewish baker have to make a Adolph Hitler cake???  Does a gay baker have to bake a cake for the Westborough Baptist Church??? 

This baker in CO doesn't make Halloween themed cakes either, but he will make Fall themed ones.  Should the Wiccans be able to sue him and force him to?  Where does it end???

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 06:38:30 PM »
The end game has always been the outlawing of Christianity.  The left doesn't care about the bleep.  They're a means to an end.  Once the Christians are gone, the left will turn on the bleep like rabid dogs.

They already do.

I have a fair number of homosexual friends and acquaintances. A few transgender friends. (Big deal, I'm also friends with strippers, prostitutes, and body builders). We keep in touch in person, by email and on facebook. By far the worst insults, slurs and vitriol they get that I have seen are from the left.

Fag and gay are go to insults for youths - not exactly welcoming, is it?
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 09:56:49 PM »
Does a gay baker have to bake a cake for the Westborough Baptist Church??? 

Of course they do, but I certainly wouldn't eat it.  Which gets back to my original point above.

You can bet the lefties would do it... and laugh about it...


« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 09:57:12 PM by GourmetDan »
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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 10:03:50 PM »
There is a very, very simple solution to this:  the baker and his family should vote with their feet by closing up shop, selling the house, and moving to a state where they'll be respected.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 10:06:19 PM »
There is a very, very simple solution to this:  the baker and his family should vote with their feet by closing up shop, selling the house, and moving to a state where they'll be respected.

Actually, the same could be said for the gay couple...


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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 10:07:20 PM »
Actually, the same could be said for the gay couple...




Of course, but the gay couple isn't on the wrong end of the regulatory gun.  The comparison is inapposite.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 10:15:18 PM »
Of course, but the gay couple isn't on the wrong end of the regulatory gun.  The comparison is inapposite.

Yes, and slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted that...


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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2013, 10:22:04 PM »
Yes, and slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted that...




You don't get it, do you.  The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

The comparison to slavery is particularly egregious.  A slave had no choice but to serve; a slave was not free to quit, enter a new line of business, or move to a different state.

So, since Colorado is enforcing a rule it has sufficient power to enforce - even if the rule is stupid and objectionable - the baker has two choices:  buckle down and follow the law, or move to a more inviting community.  That, or he could just pay the fines.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2013, 10:30:49 PM »
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?


He can say he doesn't have the skill to create a specific pattern nor stock the decoration for XYZ holiday.  He may not have a Steve and Steve wedding cake topper. Does this now mean he is forced to carry a product he doesn't normally carry?  Should he be required to purchase and offer for sale this cake topper in order to meet the 'order'?

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 10:32:25 PM »
You don't get it, do you.  The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

The comparison to slavery is particularly egregious.  A slave had no choice but to serve; a slave was not free to quit, enter a new line of business, or move to a different state.

So, since Colorado is enforcing a rule it has sufficient power to enforce - even if the rule is stupid and objectionable - the baker has two choices:  buckle down and follow the law, or move to a more inviting community.  That, or he could just pay the fines.

No you don't get it.  The fact of the matter is that, using your own argument, slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted it.

Clearly you can rationalize anything, but that's no big deal.  Anybody can rationalize anything, and often do just that...


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Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2013, 12:29:09 AM »
Well, let's see. According to Ocander:

The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

I wonder how he squares that with the Constitution of the State of Colorado, Article II, section 4.

Quote
Section 4. Religious freedom. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever hereafter be guaranteed; and no person shall be denied any civil or political right, privilege or capacity, on account of his opinions concerning religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be construed to dispense with oaths or affirmations, excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the good order, peace or safety of the state. No person shall be required to attend or support any ministry or place of worship, religious sect or denomination against his consent. Nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious denomination or mode of worship.


Or maybe Article II, section 3:

Quote
Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness


http://law.justia.com/constitution/colorado/cnart2.html

Yep, no doubt about it. Homosexual demands trump both the United States' Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Colorado.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 12:43:33 AM »
So, if an atheist baker refuses to sell a cake for a Jewish wedding, is that religious discrimination?
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