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Online mystery-ak

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« on: December 07, 2013, 09:40:38 AM »

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Online Bigun

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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 09:47:09 AM »

Offline andy58-in-nh

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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 10:26:07 AM »
They were right then and VERY wrong now!

Consider the source: Think Progress is a project of the American Progress Action Fund (APAF), a "sister advocacy organization" of the John Podesta-led Center for American Progress (CAP) and CAP's entities such as Campus Progress. It also draws freely on the resources of the George Soros-funded Media Matters website edited by David Brock.1

Research by a British historian, Professor Stephen Ellis, has unearthed fresh evidence that during his early years as an activist, Mr Mandela did hold senior rank in the South African Communist Party, or SACP.2 As for the ANC, its ties to the Soviet Union date back to at least 1960. The Stasi, East Germany's security ministry actively trained the ANC's security personnel. Furthermore, the decision to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation) - a guerrilla army which later became the ANC's armed wing -- was made not by the ANC but by its allies in the South African Communist Party after negotiations with Chinese leader Mao Zedong.

No matter what one may think of the necessity of such actions, given the loathsome nature of South Africa's apartheid regime, it is simply dishonest to suggest that Nelson Mandela and his organization had no communist ties, and historically revisionist (at the very least) to suggest such connections are the product of "right-wing" fantasy.

1 http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/nelson-mandela-proven-to-be-senior-member-of-south-african-communist-party
2 http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7121
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Online Bigun

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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 10:31:28 AM »
Consider the source: Think Progress is a project of the American Progress Action Fund (APAF), a "sister advocacy organization" of the John Podesta-led Center for American Progress (CAP) and CAP's entities such as Campus Progress. It also draws freely on the resources of the George Soros-funded Media Matters website edited by David Brock.1

Research by a British historian, Professor Stephen Ellis, has unearthed fresh evidence that during his early years as an activist, Mr Mandela did hold senior rank in the South African Communist Party, or SACP.2 As for the ANC, its ties to the Soviet Union date back to at least 1960. The Stasi, East Germany's security ministry actively trained the ANC's security personnel. Furthermore, the decision to create the Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation) - a guerrilla army which later became the ANC's armed wing -- was made not by the ANC but by its allies in the South African Communist Party after negotiations with Chinese leader Mao Zedong.

No matter what one may think of the necessity of such actions, given the loathsome nature of South Africa's apartheid regime, it is simply dishonest to suggest that Nelson Mandela and his organization had no communist ties, and historically revisionist (at the very least) to suggest such connections are the product of "right-wing" fantasy.

1 http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/nelson-mandela-proven-to-be-senior-member-of-south-african-communist-party
2 http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7121

He was a communist to the end and only publicly rejected violence after it became no longer useful to HIM!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 10:32:01 AM by Bigun »

Online Oceander

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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 10:55:41 AM »
Political opportunism and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thinking is ultimately problemmatic - to say the least - for everyone, no matter their authentic political orientation.

The US, generally to the right of center in foreign affairs, has suffered numerous indignities and serious dents in its international reputation for its association with tyrants and dictators because those leaders were anti-communist.  Individuals and groups that have made common cause with communists because both actively opposed the then-current regime have also suffered from that association.  Similarly, individuals who have changed their views and repudiated their former associations can suffer grievously, either from the fact that others continue to associate them with the people/ideas they've repudiated, or from the retribution visited upon them by the people they've repudiated; Malcolm X, for example, suffered grievously from his repudiation of the Nation of Islam.  On the more general point of people changing their views, or to put it in different terms, organizations moving away from the views espoused by some of their members, it's worth noting that it isn't just radicals who get involved:  Ronald Reagan eventually repudiated the democrat party, even though he framed it in terms of the party leaving him.

Finally, it's worth noting that repudiation frequently happens only with respect to one or two - certainly less than all - of the views of the people/organization being repudiated; for example, Reagan wasn't opposed to every jot and tittle of the democrat party view, but rather to some of the underlying tenets of the DNC.  The same for Malcolm X:  he still supported a number of the tenets of the Nation of Islam; he repudiated them because he came to disagree with some of their fundamental tenets.  That Mandela didn't utterly repudiate his earlier associations should therefore not be surprising.

That's not to say that Mandela is not a problematic individual; he is.  I'm also not saying that he should be forgiven all of his prior associations, or his continuing affiliation with them simply because he repudiated some of those groups' views.  I am just saying that he cannot be judged in simple black-and-white (no pun intended) terms.  As a corrollary, however, it is appropriate to emphasize an individual's virtues rather than her/his vices when eulogizing her/him at her/his funeral.

Offline happyg

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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 11:17:06 AM »

Online truth_seeker

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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2013, 11:33:31 AM »
1. Truth and Reconciliation Commission (South Africa)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

2. Forum for Peace and Reconciliation (Northern Ireland)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_for_Peace_and_Reconciliation

3. Germany is full of former communists, who were citizens of Soviet satellite East Germany

They seem to have gotten past that period, as well as can be expected short of mass executions.

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Offline EC

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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 01:34:15 AM »
I boil it down to this:

Did he use every tool at his disposal to remove one of the most revolting systems on the planet? Yes, he did.

Can he be blamed for the direction the ANC took? Not really, he was doing hard labor in isolation.

Was he a good man? No. He was most emphatically not.

Was he a great man? Yes he was.

Nothing anyone can say will change my respect for him.

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Online Bigun

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 10:08:57 AM »

Offline EC

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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 10:30:39 AM »
Thank you, Bigun!  :beer:

It's good to see a man's thought processes, regardless.

Do you know when he wrote that? Before prison or after?
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Online Bigun

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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »
Thank you, Bigun!  :beer:

It's good to see a man's thought processes, regardless.

Do you know when he wrote that? Before prison or after?

Not entirely sure.  I found it at the link below.

http://rhodesia.nl/goodcom.html

Offline EC

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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 10:46:04 AM »
Hard to tell, but that link is revealing, to say the least!

I'd estimate that it was pre-imprisonment, but could well be wrong.
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Online Bigun

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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 10:50:33 AM »
Hard to tell, but that link is revealing, to say the least!

I'd estimate that it was pre-imprisonment, but could well be wrong.

That would be my guess as well since I seriously doubt that he would have handwritten much of anything after being released from prison.

There is a LOT more out there if one is just willing to look.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 10:53:56 AM by Bigun »

Offline EC

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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 10:55:58 AM »
You got my back here!  :laugh:  :beer:

It's good to keep a proper record.
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Online Bigun

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« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 11:02:52 AM »
You got my back here!  :laugh:  :beer:

It's good to keep a proper record.

Just one old grunt watching anothers back!

Offline Slide Rule

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« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2013, 01:14:46 PM »
Bigin

Informative post.  Thanks.


Are there Good Communists on this forum?

Does Nelson Mandella's manuscript follow Party philosophy?


Al

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Al

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I am 3% Neanderthal and 97% Conservative.

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Karl Popper, An Open Society and Its Enemies & The Logic of Scientific Discovery



Online raml

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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2013, 07:46:07 PM »
Sorry but I find nothing to respect about this man. I am just glad I am not in his shoes facing God with his life.

Online Bigun

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2013, 08:34:08 PM »
Sorry but I find nothing to respect about this man. I am just glad I am not in his shoes facing God with his life.

That's because there is nothing about him TO respect if you are a rational, clear thinking, freedom loving American!


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