Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'

[NavyCanDo]

Once upon a time, the money was to provide modest means, for the pastor. Now it is for his mansion, his plane, etc.

There are mega-churches that do have pastor's living in luxury. If that bothers you then by all means stay far away from them. But I would bet 95% of the churches you pass each day has a pastor living very modestly in a home no better than the homes in your neighborhood, and who is probably more charitable than your average neighbor - and who while the rest of us are  relaxing in the evening watching TV or the football game or working in the shop,  he is taking an evening phone call from a couple who is thinking about divorce, or a young man thinking about suicide, or  a family who just lost a daughter in a car accident .    Its to bad you want to lump them all together, and It's a shame that the bad pastors give such a lasting impression on people and turn many away from going back to another church for good.

[olde north church]

Sorry, back for a moment. 
I just couldn't resist, we are debating the infallibility of Limbaugh?



People are looking at the 20th Century version of socialist authoritarianism against the pure communal living and disregard for material wealth and political power of the New Testament.  As many have said in other discussions, man is an imperfect vessel, that is drawn to sin AND cannot truly understand the word of God.
It may not fit your personal religious understanding but communal living, PURE SOCIALISM, is very much a part of the Christian way of life.  As EC referred to, a monastic way of life, is quite socialist by it's nature.

[musiclady]

There are mega-churches that do have pastor's living in luxury. If that bothers you then by all means stay far away from them. But I would bet 95% of the churches you pass each day has a pastor living very modestly in a home no better than the homes in your neighborhood, and who is probably more charitable than your average neighbor - and who while the rest of us are  relaxing in the evening watching TV or the football game or working in the shop,  he is taking an evening phone call from a couple who is thinking about divorce, or a young man thinking about suicide, or  a family who just lost a daughter in a car accident .    Its to bad you want to lump them all together, and It's a shame that the bad pastors give such a lasting impression on people and turn many away from going back to another church for good.

Thanks for that post, Navy.

It's a ridiculous stretch of logic and truth to lump all pastors into a big, greedy bunch because there are a few mega-church Elmer Gantry types who take advantage of people and get rich.  There are bad people in every profession.

You are right in your assessment of the average pastor.  Low or modest income, giving of self, sacrificing privacy and freedom, to shepherd the flock that God has called him/her to.

I think those who bash Christianity, and make gross (and untrue) generalizations, are looking for excuses to stay away from God's personal calling for them, and my guess is that there's a bit of guilt that makes them angry and eager to lash out at people of faith.

And one last time...............socialism is the ANTITHESIS of Christianity, regardless of the efforts to say it's the same thing.

IF you purposefully leave government out of the equation, you can make a connection, but it's not truthful.   The voluntary nature of giving to the poor and sharing one's possessions in Christianity, and the forced nature of 'giving' and the theft involved in socialism to line the pockets of the powerful, is the bottom line in this discussion.

But some people are clearly (and deliberately?) blind to that very important bottom line, and that's a shame. 

[Lipstick on a Hillary]

Absolutely spot on. 

I think that someone continues to insist that voluntary is the same as involuntary, is someone who does not wish to believe the obvious. 

[Bigun]

Sorry, back for a moment. 
I just couldn't resist, we are debating the infallibility of Limbaugh?



People are looking at the 20th Century version of socialist authoritarianism against the pure communal living and disregard for material wealth and political power of the New Testament.  As many have said in other discussions, man is an imperfect vessel, that is drawn to sin AND cannot truly understand the word of God.
It may not fit your personal religious understanding but communal living, PURE SOCIALISM, is very much a part of the Christian way of life.  As EC referred to, a monastic way of life, is quite socialist by it's nature.

We should DEFINITELY remember that early American life (colonial era) started out as purely socialistic communes and those failed miserably until Capitalism was introduced and saved them bringing forth the richest and most free society the world has ever seen.  Now, after three century's of success,  Obama and his boys want to take us back to that but we ain't goin! I hope!

[musiclady]

We should DEFINITELY remember that early American life (colonial era) started out as purely socialistic communes and those failed miserably until Capitalism was introduced and saved them bringing forth the richest and most free society the world has ever seen.  Now, after three century's of success,  Obama and his boys want to take us back to that but we ain't goin! I hope!

Once again, the very important dimension of FREEDOM is critical to an honest discussion.

The Pilgrims were not looking at socialism per se, but rather Acts-based communal sharing (NOT socialism).  But they realized that on a large scale, it didn't work, and introduced the concept of capitalism - work for what you yourself receive - and the experiment worked.

It's important to realize that one of the key concepts the separatists brought with them was the idea of religious liberty, and they realized quickly that liberty and even Christian based communal living didn't mix well.

Socialism, as a concept is not the same thing as voluntary, freely chosen community living.

So socialism is not involved in monasteries or convents either, because monks and nuns CHOOSE to share, and are not forced by any human government.

[olde north church]

The American model of Christianity, or correctly British model, does not correspond to Christianity anywhere else on the planet.  It's what fueled the various exodi from England, to the Netherlands, back to England for money then on to the unknown.  It is unique in Christianity.
It's not the Christianity of South America, Africa, Asia or Eastern Europe.  Where the English Christians were industrious, the Roman Catholics sought common misery.

[musiclady]

The American model of Christianity, or correctly British model, does not correspond to Christianity anywhere else on the planet.  It's what fueled the various exodi from England, to the Netherlands, back to England for money then on to the unknown.  It is unique in Christianity.
It's not the Christianity of South America, Africa, Asia or Eastern Europe.  Where the English Christians were industrious, the Roman Catholics sought common misery.

Any Christianity that does not teach industry is not following the commands of Scripture.

Once again, onc, follow what's in Scripture, and the commands of God in Christ provided there, and you will find the model of Christianity.

Don't look to those who fail to meet the standards God has provided (that would be ALL of us) as an excuse to blame Christianity for what you don't like.

Repeating.......... Christianity and socialism are diametrically opposed because one is based on God's love, and the other is based on a quest for power completely apart from God.

They are opposing principles, not complementary.

[olde north church]

Any Christianity that does not teach industry is not following the commands of Scripture.

Once again, onc, follow what's in Scripture, and the commands of God in Christ provided there, and you will find the model of Christianity.

Don't look to those who fail to meet the standards God has provided (that would be ALL of us) as an excuse to blame Christianity for what you don't like.

Repeating.......... Christianity and socialism are diametrically opposed because one is based on God's love, and the other is based on a quest for power completely apart from God.

They are opposing principles, not complementary.

Just thought about this, although a tangent, goes to method.  I've always hated arguing the side of the debate with which I disagree but speaking about the use of force, we live in a constitutional republic.  The tax system is nominally "voluntary", in that you are expected to pay without the King's men coming to your door and shaking you until your shillings drop from your pockets.
Well, in theory, yeah.  In reality, try NOT paying your taxes and see the full weight and power come down upon you.  I'm not even talking about the current state of affairs.  Think about the Whiskey Rebellion.
The government is always oppression, just a matter of degree.  Socialism, only slight more palatable than communism, less palatable than democracy.

[Bigun]

Just thought about this, although a tangent, goes to method.  I've always hated arguing the side of the debate with which I disagree but speaking about the use of force, we live in a constitutional republic.  The tax system is nominally "voluntary", in that you are expected to pay without the King's men coming to your door and shaking you until your shillings drop from your pockets.
Well, in theory, yeah.  In reality, try NOT paying your taxes and see the full weight and power come down upon you.  I'm not even talking about the current state of affairs.  Think about the Whiskey Rebellion.
The government is always oppression, just a matter of degree.  Socialism, only slight more palatable than communism, less palatable than democracy.

ANY form of government requires citizens thereof to give up some portion of their freedom and our founders were well aware of this fact. That is why they chose the Republican form and tried, via the Constitution, to protect individuals from the mob (direct Democracy).

They also sought to LIMIT government to maximum extent possible and thereby protect the freedoms of individual citizens to the maximum extent possible! Unfortunately most of the protections they provided have been turned on their head and, for the most part, no one protested. At least since 1865 anyway.

The tax system you mention come to us straight out of the writings of Karl Marx and Frederick Engels and was not possible until 1913 when what remained of our Constitution was ripped apart by the 16th and 17th amendments. 

[olde north church]

ANY form of government requires citizens thereof to give up some portion of their freedom and our founders were well aware of this fact. That is why they chose the Republican form and tried, via the Constitution, to protect individuals from the mob (direct Democracy).

They also sought to LIMIT government to maximum extent possible and thereby protect the freedoms of individual citizens to the maximum extent possible! Unfortunately most of the protections they provided have been turned on their head and, for the most part, no one protested. At least since 1865 anyway.

The tax system you mention come to us straight out of the writings of Karl Marx and Frederick Engels and was not possible until 1913 when what remained of our Constitution was ripped apart by the 16th and 17th amendments.

The tax system which triggered the Whiskey Rebellion wasn't the result of Marx and Engels.  It was 1793.  It was closer to a tariff or excise tax than an income tax.

[Bigun]

The tax system which triggered the Whiskey Rebellion wasn't the result of Marx and Engels.  It was 1793.  It was closer to a tariff or excise tax than an income tax.

You are EXACTLY right! It was about farmers on the frontier who were largely cut off from any real means to transport their cash crops (grain) to market in their original form and thus forced to turned those crops into another, much more easily transportable, commodity (whiskey) being treated differently than everyone else was being treated tax wise! If the excise had been applied uniformly to ALL commodities across the board there likely would never have been a Whiskey Rebellion.

[olde north church]

You are EXACTLY right! It was about farmers on the frontier who were largely cut off from any real means to transport their cash crops (grain) to market in their original form and thus forced to turned those crops into another, much more easily transportable, commodity (whiskey) being treated differently than everyone else was being treated tax wise! If the excise had been applied uniformly to ALL commodities across the board there likely would never have been a Whiskey Rebellion.

Excise and sales taxes are the fairest of all taxes, you only pay for what you use.  Actually, I don't mind use taxes and licensing fees (to a degree).  I fish.  A nominal fishing license fee, $23 annually in NJ for the basic license, is fine.  Although, I don't agree with what I'll describe as "vocational licensing", barber's licenses, come to mind.
Leftists don't like them because they consider them to be regressive.  The poor pay the same as the wealthy.  To me, sounds like the fair share.  End property taxes and we're getting somewhere.

[olde north church]

Back to the topic at hand though, Pope Paul VI was more of a commie than this guy.  Commentators came out and called him one based upon his encyclicals.  The Church of Rome is about social justice while playing the wealthy to pay their way into Heaven.  You have to admire them for figuring out you can just as easily work both sides and make it pay.
I recommend:

The "Five Wounds of the Church".  A lot of inside baseball about The Church, written about 20 years prior to the Communist Manifesto but published contemporaneously, about 1848.

http://www.rosmini.org/cause/beatit/5w.html

[EC]

Thank you for that, North! Up to chapter 3 and it is interesting. There are some aspects I am not agreeing with thus far, but will hold off until I finish the whole thing.

[olde north church]

Thank you for that, North! Up to chapter 3 and it is interesting. There are some aspects I am not agreeing with thus far, but will hold off until I finish the whole thing.

Social work is one of the threads of Christianity one dare not pull for risk of unravelling the garment.  Doesn't fit with the English/German/Swiss interpretations but it's there.  It's quite possibly the undercurrent for many of the European wars.
Latins vs Teutons vs Slavs with a pinch of Moorish Spain.