Author Topic: Karzai Family Values  (Read 1072 times)

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SPQR

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Karzai Family Values
« on: December 04, 2013, 03:10:17 PM »

Offline flowers

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 03:29:23 PM »
The minute we leave Afganistand, Karzi isn't long for this world. He best leave fast.


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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 03:33:02 PM »
The minute we leave Afganistand, Karzi isn't long for this world. He best leave fast.

 :beer:

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 03:54:17 PM »
So the US handpicked Karzai, as someone that would impede America's goals?

I personally believe our shortcoming was we didn't kill enough Afghan civilians.

And we have failed to obtain unconditional surrender, by the Taliban.

Instead of my methods, we slowly shed our troopers lives and limbs.

The "Military-Industrial Complex" which Eisenhower warned of, has guided post WWII American war-fighting methods, for their own benefit.


"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 04:21:06 PM »
First, I support the soldiers in Afghanistan and many are my former classmates. But, we have been there for 12 years and racked up a bill totaling around $1 trillion dollars. The minute we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be back from their hide outs in Pakistan.

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 06:19:29 PM »
First, I support the soldiers in Afghanistan and many are my former classmates. But, we have been there for 12 years and racked up a bill totaling around $1 trillion dollars. The minute we leave Afghanistan, the Taliban will be back from their hide outs in Pakistan.
That contrasts with the residents of Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The enemy is willing to wage all-out war, but we aren't. 9/11/2001 was all-out war, IMO-and should have had a devastating and decisive response.

Instead, 12 years later we contemplate just walking away from the contest.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 06:34:17 PM »
That contrasts with the residents of Hamburg, Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The enemy is willing to wage all-out war, but we aren't. 9/11/2001 was all-out war, IMO-and should have had a devastating and decisive response.

Instead, 12 years later we contemplate just walking away from the contest.

Good Point
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:03:37 PM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 07:58:17 PM »
They should remember there is no "Prime Directive".  Blow the f*ckers to Kingdom Come and be done with it.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2013, 08:59:34 PM »
Afghanistan is, and always has been, the honeypot that draws militaries in, grinds them up, and spits them back out.  Why anyone thought the US could do to Afghanistan what the Soviets so spectacularly failed to do is beyond me.

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2013, 09:01:00 PM »
Afghanistan is, and always has been, the honeypot that draws militaries in, grinds them up, and spits them back out.  Why anyone thought the US could do to Afghanistan what the Soviets so spectacularly failed to do is beyond me.

Good Point

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2013, 09:39:14 PM »
Afghanistan is, and always has been, the honeypot that draws militaries in, grinds them up, and spits them back out.  Why anyone thought the US could do to Afghanistan what the Soviets so spectacularly failed to do is beyond me.
I don't think it has to do with the "place" but rather with the will.

The fact is the US has not decisively, permanently won a major conflict since WWII.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I, Iraq II, and Afghanistan all resulted in unfinished conflicts. The US possessed the military capability but not the political will.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 10:12:37 PM »
I don't think it has to do with the "place" but rather with the will.

The fact is the US has not decisively, permanently won a major conflict since WWII.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I, Iraq II, and Afghanistan all resulted in unfinished conflicts. The US possessed the military capability but not the political will.

The Soviets could not deal with the Afgans and they were a superpower. They got their butts handed to them. The Brits got their butts handed to them in 1842.The 1842 Kabul Retreat (or Massacre of Elphinstone's Army) was the defeat of a combined force of British and Indian troops from the British East India Company, and the deaths of thousands of civilians in eastern Afghanistan in January 1842.

http://history1800s.about.com/od/colonialwars/a/kabul1842.htm
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:21:01 PM by SPQR »

Offline Oceander

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 10:34:31 PM »
I don't think it has to do with the "place" but rather with the will.

The fact is the US has not decisively, permanently won a major conflict since WWII.

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I, Iraq II, and Afghanistan all resulted in unfinished conflicts. The US possessed the military capability but not the political will.

I'm not sure those affairs can be so neatly characterized.  As a purely military affair the US most definitively won both Iraq campaigns; what it lost was the (misguided) attempt to nation-build.  In other words, the actual "conflict" in those conflicts was finished; but the US' misguided post-conflict involvement ended up pulling the US into a conflict - a not quite "hot" conflict - that is unfinished, perhaps because those sorts of conflicts simply cannot be finished.  The US most definitely lost in Vietnam; I wouldn't categorize that as an unfinished conflict.

Korea was, and is, an interesting stalemate; it probably represents the end-result of the sort of classic MAD (mutual assured destruction) doctrine from the '50s:  neither side able to defeat the other using conventional weapons, but neither having the political will to take the next step and resort to nuclear weapons.  In a way, Korea might provide some support for the validity of the MAD doctrine, namely, that nuclear wars are avoided by the realization on both sides that initiating a nuclear strike, even a limited one, would very likely metastasize into an unlimited nuclear exchange that would effectively wipe out both sides - the similarity to a stalemate being that there would be no winners after such an exchange.

Afghanistan seems to be sui generis.  According to the Cook's Tour version of the history of Afghanistan, the last time Afghanistan was successfully invaded and incorporated into another sovereign nation was in the 1300s.  The involvement of modern-day nations in Afghanistan appears to have been generally negative for those nations.  The British got involved three times, and did have some successes but, as in India, were eventually forced to leave as the Sun set on the British Empire.  The Soviets fared much worse, and the US seems to have ended up somewhere in the middle - having attained the goal of finding, and killing Bin Laden - but otherwise being dragged into a quagmire that swallows up blood and treasure without any real resolution in sight other than withdrawal from an unfinished conflict.

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 11:35:06 PM »
I'm not sure those affairs can be so neatly characterized.  As a purely military affair the US most definitively won both Iraq campaigns; what it lost was the (misguided) attempt to nation-build.  In other words, the actual "conflict" in those conflicts was finished; but the US' misguided post-conflict involvement ended up pulling the US into a conflict - a not quite "hot" conflict - that is unfinished, perhaps because those sorts of conflicts simply cannot be finished.  The US most definitely lost in Vietnam; I wouldn't categorize that as an unfinished conflict.

Korea was, and is, an interesting stalemate; it probably represents the end-result of the sort of classic MAD (mutual assured destruction) doctrine from the '50s:  neither side able to defeat the other using conventional weapons, but neither having the political will to take the next step and resort to nuclear weapons.  In a way, Korea might provide some support for the validity of the MAD doctrine, namely, that nuclear wars are avoided by the realization on both sides that initiating a nuclear strike, even a limited one, would very likely metastasize into an unlimited nuclear exchange that would effectively wipe out both sides - the similarity to a stalemate being that there would be no winners after such an exchange.

Afghanistan seems to be sui generis.  According to the Cook's Tour version of the history of Afghanistan, the last time Afghanistan was successfully invaded and incorporated into another sovereign nation was in the 1300s.  The involvement of modern-day nations in Afghanistan appears to have been generally negative for those nations.  The British got involved three times, and did have some successes but, as in India, were eventually forced to leave as the Sun set on the British Empire.  The Soviets fared much worse, and the US seems to have ended up somewhere in the middle - having attained the goal of finding, and killing Bin Laden - but otherwise being dragged into a quagmire that swallows up blood and treasure without any real resolution in sight other than withdrawal from an unfinished conflict.
:beer:

Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 05:01:35 AM »
Savages understand violence and cunning.  Grab a tribal leader or two, preferably the strongest.  Bring them to the public square and a bullet to the head of the first.  Any questions?  Any hesitation will lead to the second bullet to the next head.  The next will be to the head of the first son of the first leader.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
The message will be understood, eventually.  If not, what has been really lost?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 05:12:32 AM »
  Blow the f*ckers to Kingdom Come and be done with it.
Its like an elephant stepping on an ant hill. You kill one and there is a whole nest of them. You will not get them all. Then they pop somewhere else. I think the Soviets/Russians learned that the hard way when they were there from 1980-1988. You can drop a nuclear bomb on them and like a cockroach they would survive.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:29:16 AM by SPQR »

Offline EC

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2013, 05:19:13 AM »
Savages understand violence and cunning.  Grab a tribal leader or two, preferably the strongest.  Bring them to the public square and a bullet to the head of the first.  Any questions?  Any hesitation will lead to the second bullet to the next head.  The next will be to the head of the first son of the first leader.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
The message will be understood, eventually.  If not, what has been really lost?

While an undoubtedly effective technique - you know we are supposed to be the good guys, right?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:19:34 AM by EC »
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 05:20:29 AM »
Its like an elephant stepping on an ant hill. You kill one and there is a whole nest of them. You will not get them all.

If you're a big enough elephant and you step hard enough they will notice.  Actually, my point is about the failure of "hearts and minds".  If you're going to go through all the trouble of mobilizing the armed forces and move them halfway around the globe, make it worthwhile.  And while your at it, lock down Pakistan for good measure.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2013, 05:21:04 AM »
While an undoubtedly effective technique - you know we are supposed to be the good guys, right?
Even pretty girls get the runs.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2013, 05:23:07 AM »
Its like an elephant stepping on an ant hill. You kill one and there is a whole nest of them. You will not get them all. Then they pop somewhere else. I think the Soviets/Russians learned that the hard way when they were there from 1980-1988.
Of the troops deployed, 53,753 were wounded, injured, or sustained concussion and 415,932 fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever, and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed, or contracting serious diseases, 10,751 men, were left disabled

source:Krivosheev, G. F. (1993). Combat Losses and Casualties in the Twentieth Century. London, England: Greenhill Books
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:24:41 AM by SPQR »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2013, 05:28:08 AM »
Of the troops deployed, 53,753 were wounded, injured, or sustained concussion and 415,932 fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever, and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed, or contracting serious diseases, 10,751 men, were left disabled

source:Krivosheev, G. F. (1993). Combat Losses and Casualties in the Twentieth Century. London, England: Greenhill Books

If I'm not mistaken, Alexander the Great died from some disease he picked up in Afghanistan or pretty near to it.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline EC

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2013, 05:29:31 AM »
Even pretty girls get the runs.

 :beer:

True dat. I'd say get the pols and the connected (and vastly over promoted) brass out of the damned way and leave it to the experts. It's hard enough in the field without having some damned char warmer who probably has never held a rifle second guessing you from thousands of miles away.

We had one fixed rule back in '03, before the RoE got all touchy feely BS. One round in our general direction, 10 magazines back at you. It was a quiet tour once they got the basic idea.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2013, 05:33:37 AM »
Of the troops deployed, 53,753 were wounded, injured, or sustained concussion and 415,932 fell sick. A high proportion of casualties were those who fell ill. This was because of local climatic and sanitary conditions, which were such that acute infections spread rapidly among the troops. There were 115,308 cases of infectious hepatitis, 31,080 of typhoid fever, and 140,665 of other diseases. Of the 11,654 who were discharged from the army after being wounded, maimed, or contracting serious diseases, 10,751 men, were left disabled

source:Krivosheev, G. F. (1993). Combat Losses and Casualties in the Twentieth Century. London, England: Greenhill Books

The elephant was more of a symbolic thing.  Most wars have greater troop loss due to sickness than actual combat.  You probably could consider the Pandemic of 1918 as a WWI related of death.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline EC

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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 05:36:50 AM »
The elephant was more of a symbolic thing.  Most wars have greater troop loss due to sickness than actual combat.  You probably could consider the Pandemic of 1918 as a WWI related of death.

Or the Spanish American War. For every death in combat - on both sides - there were (if memory serves) 40 due to the flu.
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Re: Karzai Family Values
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 05:37:07 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, Alexander the Great died from some disease he picked up in Afghanistan or pretty near to it.

He caught a disease, in which is debatable where he caught it or how he died but he died in Babylon in modern day Iraq. But most of his troops did suffer greatly while traveling through Afghanistan(Hindu Kush Mountains) and India. There is a very good documentary called "In the Footsteps of Alexander the Great" which came came out many years ago along with a companion book.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 05:43:24 AM by SPQR »


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