Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'

[ABX]

Is a collection plate passed around your Sunday services?

The difference is you are free to give or not to give. Under socialism, what you have is taken. What you have is part of the collective and you have no right to freely give or not give.

The freely giving is the best expression of Christianity because it is of free choice, just like accepting Christ.

That is what makes Socialism the exact opposite of Christianity.

[olde north church]

The difference is you are free to give or not to give. Under socialism, what you have is taken. What you have is part of the collective and you have no right to freely give or not give.

The freely giving is the best expression of Christianity because it is of free choice, just like accepting Christ.

That is what makes Socialism the exact opposite of Christianity.

Well, I'll just say we'll have to agree to disagree.  I understand the underlying precepts of both and can recognize a walking and talking duck.
I'll take my leave from this thread and see you all on the next unrelated topic.

[raml]

I agree 100% with AbaraXas  socialism is the exact opposite of Christianity.

[Rapunzel]

Is a collection plate passed around your Sunday services?

Yes and you can pass it right on by without putting one penny in the plate if you so choose.

[aligncare]

Yes and you can pass it right on by without putting one penny in the plate if you so choose.

Uh–huh... Try doing that with the IRS.

[musiclady]

Well, I'll just say we'll have to agree to disagree.  I understand the underlying precepts of both and can recognize a walking and talking duck.
I'll take my leave from this thread and see you all on the next unrelated topic.

The discussion we've been having with you is very 'related' onc.

Christianity and Socialism are opposites.

And tithing is voluntary.   Paying taxes is not.

[EC]

I'm going to weigh in (slightly) on North's side here, despite my previous  :nometalk: .

Christianity has some aspects of socialism. Look after your fellow man. Pick them up when they fall. Give them your cloak if they are cold, feed them if they hunger, let them draw water from your well if they thirst.  Love your neighbor as yourself. It certainly looks socialist - if you squint a bit.

Of course, you do all those things for the love of God, not because the state insists you do so. So, there is that.

[ABX]

The Socialist Lord's Prayer


    Our Father in government,
    bureaucrat be your name.
    Your taxman come,
    your will be done,
    in blue states, as it is in red.
    Give us this day the rich's breadcrumbs,
    and add to our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    And accept all temptations
    and call nothing evil.

[ABX]

I'm going to weigh in (slightly) on North's side here, despite my previous  :nometalk: .

Christianity has some aspects of socialism. Look after your fellow man. Pick them up when they fall. Give them your cloak if they are cold, feed them if they hunger, let them draw water from your well if they thirst.  Love your neighbor as yourself. It certainly looks socialist - if you squint a bit.

Of course, you do all those things for the love of God, not because the state insists you do so. So, there is that.

That still falls under the false premise that Socialism actually does all those things. It doesn't. It cloaks itself in the guise of helping your fellow man, but in reality, it only helps those politically connected. It enslaves your fellow man and ensure all are thirsty or cold or hungry, as long as they are equally so.

[EC]

That still falls under the false premise that Socialism actually does all those things. It doesn't. It cloaks itself in the guise of helping your fellow man, but in reality, it only helps those politically connected. It enslaves your fellow man and ensure all are thirsty or cold or hungry, as long as they are equally so.

True - because people are human and look to the main chance every chance they get.

If you want to see perfect socialism, or indeed communism, in action, look no further than a well run monastery. I retreat to one from time to time to refresh my life. It is the epitome of communist living. All eat the same, sleep the same, own nothing. You could justly say that "Marx taught pure Catholicism."

[Bigun]

Is a collection plate passed around your Sunday services?

No! As a matter of fact it is not!  But even if it were putting anything in it is strictly voluntary!

[Bigun]

Uh–huh... Try doing that with the IRS.

   and 

[EC]

No! As a matter of fact it is not!  But even if it were putting anything in it is strictly voluntary!

How'd you do it then? Note - not a challenge, just curiosity.

Our church does a collection. You pick up an envelope (after Mass) for the next week. That way no one sees what you put in the collection box and it stays totally anonymous. Some weeks you get a lot of coins. Other weeks, a lot of notes. Further weeks a hell of a lot of empty envelopes. You know the empty envelopes weeks - our Father gets a lot of invitations to dinner from people on their way out after Mass!

[Bigun]

How'd you do it then? Note - not a challenge, just curiosity.

Our church does a collection. You pick up an envelope (after Mass) for the next week. That way no one sees what you put in the collection box and it stays totally anonymous. Some weeks you get a lot of coins. Other weeks, a lot of notes. Further weeks a hell of a lot of empty envelopes. You know the empty envelopes weeks - our Father gets a lot of invitations to dinner from people on their way out after Mass!

Tithing slips and in sealed envelopes passed directly to a member of the Bishopric. There is no collection box at all and all strictly voluntary.

[EC]

Tithing slips and in sealed envelopes. All strictly voluntary.

Very similar. I do like the sealed envelope thing. One shouldn't be proud when tithing. Keep it anonymous and keep it hidden. There is no shame in being flat broke - happens to us all at some stage - but people feel shame regardless.

[NavyCanDo]

Let's try it this way.  Remove "armed enforcement" and explain the difference between Christianity and Socialism?

If you are referring to a Christian commune then you may have an argument that there is little difference, but God wants his church to be an ACTs 13 Church and not keep his Gospel enclosed in its four walls.  He wants the church to be Jesus to the World, starting with the community that surrounds the church. On the Sunday before Thanksgiving our church members (on a volunteer basis) brought in and donated  375 turkeys and 7 tons of food for the local food bank. We provide free oil changes to single Moms in the Summer, and our kids send several hundred Operation Christmas Child boxes out.  That is being Jesus to the World and is as far away from Socialism as you can get.   

[NavyCanDo]

Tithing slips and in sealed envelopes passed directly to a member of the Bishopric. There is no collection box at all and all strictly voluntary.

We are given postage paid giving envelopes with our program. If you choose to give you can either drop it in the bucket or mail your gift in during the week. There is never any pressure or sermons design to inflict guilt, like some other churches I attended. And our church is doing real well financially, so what they do, the way they do it seems to bring in enough to grow our church and support our missionaries.   

[EC]

If you are referring to a Christian commune then you may have an argument that there is little difference, but God wants his church to be an ACTs 13 Church and not keep his Gospel enclosed in its four walls.  He wants the church to be Jesus to the World, starting with the community that surrounds the church. On the Sunday before Thanksgiving our church members (on a volunteer basis) brought in and donated  375 turkeys and 7 tons of food for the local food bank. We provide free oil changes to single Moms in the Summer, and our kids send several hundred Operation Christmas Child boxes out.  That is being Jesus to the World and is as far away from Socialism as you can get.

Just want to derail a second. You, the church you attend, and it's younger members are a serious class act. 

[truth_seeker]

Is a collection plate passed around your Sunday services?

Once upon a time, the money was to provide modest means, for the pastor. Now it is for his mansion, his plane, etc.

[Fishrrman]

What a change from Karol Wojtyla of Poland, who along with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher toppled Soviet communism...

How times have changed, and not for the better.

[Cincinnatus]

Once upon a time, the money was to provide modest means, for the pastor. Now it is for his mansion, his plane, etc.

Even if this little bit of hyperbole is true, what is it to you? If I CHOOSE to give money to a preacher, even if in your opinion his lifestyle is far too luxurious, it's my money, is it not?

Otoh, what choice do I have when it comes to underwriting the lifestyle of someone like Obama, or any politician?

The issue is less what is done with the money, it's whether the people who provide it are doing so voluntarily. If you choose not to contribute to people like the Preachers of LA then by all means don't. However, just try not "contributing" to Obama & Co.

[PzLdr]

What a change from Karol Wojtyla of Poland, who along with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher toppled Soviet communism...

How times have changed, and not for the better.

Hey! He's a Jesuit. What did you expect? Remember the Berrigan brothers? Loyola himself couldn't get in the Jesuits these days. 

[Oceander]

The Pope also blasted "trickle-down economics," saying the theory "expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power."

Sadly, that statement indicates that the Pope, like most liberals, simply doesn't understand basic economics.  The point of "trickle-down economics" is not that the wealthy will somehow adopt noblesse oblige and become the benefactors of the poor, but that the self-interested economic activity of the wealthy has far-reaching economic effects that end up benefiting everyone, including the poor.  This is not something new under the Sun; it is essentially derivative of what Adam Smith had to say so many hundreds of years ago.

As for the broader statement about the "idolatry of money" - sure, I'd agree on that very abstract, general plane that the idolization of "money" isn't healthy or helpful, but neither is the idolatry of power, and socialists the world over, once they get some power, engage wholeheartedly in both idolatries.

[Oceander]

Once upon a time, the money was to provide modest means, for the pastor. Now it is for his mansion, his plane, etc.

Even if this little bit of hyperbole is true, what is it to you? If I CHOOSE to give money to a preacher, even if in your opinion his lifestyle is far too luxurious, it's my money, is it not?

Otoh, what choice do I have when it comes to underwriting the lifestyle of someone like Obama, or any politician?

The issue is less what is done with the money, it's whether the people who provide it are doing so voluntarily. If you choose not to contribute to people like the Preachers of LA then by all means don't. However, just try not "contributing" to Obama & Co.

I have to second that; one of the benefits of individual liberty is the right to be about as stupid as you want to be with your money - not to say that contributing money to one's pastor is stupid - and so there isn't any particularly good reason to object to donations simply because they're being made to some guy/gal who is already stinkin' rich.

[Oceander]

I'm going to weigh in (slightly) on North's side here, despite my previous  :nometalk: .

Christianity has some aspects of socialism. Look after your fellow man. Pick them up when they fall. Give them your cloak if they are cold, feed them if they hunger, let them draw water from your well if they thirst.  Love your neighbor as yourself. It certainly looks socialist - if you squint a bit.

Of course, you do all those things for the love of God, not because the state insists you do so. So, there is that.

The socialist threads in Christianity are, by and large, much like the socialist threads in the traditional American virtues of everyone pulling together with their neighbors because standing together with your family, friends, and neighbors is the right thing to do.

It strikes me that the biggest difference between Christianity (and the traditional American virtues) and socialism eo nomine is the fact that the former is voluntary while the latter is always compulsory, usually at the wrong end of a gun.

The Church used to try and enforce its tenets through, well, through force, and a fat lot of good that got everyone.

Effectively, socialism cannot even hope to work unless everyone is forcibly conscripted into its service; Christianity only really works if everyone is completely free to follow the dictates of their own conscience and their relationship with God.