Author Topic: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'  (Read 2903 times)

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Offline Rapunzel

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Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« on: December 03, 2013, 01:59:54 AM »
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/02/rush-limbaugh-vs-the-pope/comment-page-136/

 December 2nd, 2013
11:29 AM ET
Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN) – Pope Francis:  Successor to St. Peter ... the people's pontiff ... Marxist?

That's what conservative radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh suggests, calling the Pope's latest document "pure Marxism."

Limbaugh blasted the pontiff on Wednesday, a day after Francis released "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), a 50,000-word statement that calls for church reform and castigates elements of modern capitalism.

Limbaugh's segment, now online and entitled "It's Sad How Wrong Pope Francis Is (Unless It's a Deliberate Mistranslation By Leftists)," takes direct aim at the pope's economic views, calling them "dramatically, embarrassingly, puzzlingly wrong."

The Vatican issued the English translation of "Evangelii," which is known officially as an apostolic exhortation and unofficially as a pep talk to the worlds 1.5 billion Catholics.

Francis – the first pope ever to hail from Latin America, where he worked on behalf of the poor in his native Argentina – warned in "Evangelii" that the "idolatry of money" would lead to a "new tyranny."

The Pope also blasted "trickle-down economics," saying the theory "expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power."

The Pope's critique of capitalism thrilled many liberal Catholics, who have long called on church leaders to spend more time and energy on protecting the poor from economic inequalities.

But Limbaugh, whose program is estimated to reach 15 million listeners, called the Pope's comments "sad" and "unbelievable."

"It's sad because this pope makes it very clear he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to capitalism and socialism and so forth."

In fact, Argentina was a battlefield between leftist socialists and right-wing security forces during much of Francis' early career in the country, where he was a Jesuit priest and later archbishop of Buenos Aires.

Limbaugh, who is not Catholic, said he admires the faith "profoundly."  He admired Pope Francis as well, "up until this," Limbaugh said.

The talk show host also said that he has made numerous visits to the Vatican, which he said "wouldn't exist without tons of money."

"But regardless, what this is, somebody has either written this for him or gotten to him," Limbaugh added. "This is just pure Marxism coming out of the mouth of the Pope."

Limbaugh took particular issue with the Pope's criticism of the "culture of prosperity," which the pontiff called a "mere spectacle" for the many people who can't afford to participate.

"This is almost a statement about who should control financial markets," Limbaugh said. "He says that the global economy needs government control."

"I'm not Catholic, but I know enough to know that this would have been unthinkable for a pope to believe or say just a few years ago," Limbaugh continued.

In fact, Francis' predecessor, Benedict XVI, now pope emeritus, could be just as strong a critic of capitalism.

In 2009, Benedict, in an official church document called an encyclical, said there was an urgent need for "a political, juridical and economic order" that would "manage the global economy."

As Limbaugh notes, Benedict's predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, was a noted foe of communism, after living under its oppressions in his native Poland. But even John Paul thought that unregulated capitalism could have negative consequences.

In "Evangelii," Francis called for more of a spiritual and ethical revolution than a regulatory one.

"I encourage financial experts and political leaders to ponder the words of one of the sages of antiquity: `Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs,'" said Francis, quoting the fifth-century St. John Chrysostom.

Liberal Catholics defended Pope Francis on Monday, calling on Limbaugh to apologize and retract his remarks.

"To call the Holy Father a proponent 'pure Marxism' is both mean-spirited and naive," said Christopher Hale of the Washington-based Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good. "Francis's critique of unrestrained capitalism is in line with the Church's social teaching."

Limbaugh is not the only conservative commentator to take issue with the Pope's views on capitalism.

“I go to church to save my soul," said Fox News' Stuart Varney, who is an Episcopalian. "It’s got nothing to do with my vote. Pope Francis has linked the two. He has offered direct criticism of a specific political system. He has characterized negatively that system. I think he wants to influence my politics.

It doesn't sound like the criticism is slowing Francis down, however. He's started ending a Vatican contingent, including the Papal Swiss Guards, into Rome to deliver food and charity.
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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 02:37:46 AM »
 :nometalk:

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Offline rangerrebew

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 07:35:39 AM »
Is being Pope supposed to protect him from free speech in America, or something? :pondering:
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 07:59:36 AM »
Christianity, in it's purist form is socialism.  Your brother is hungry, feed him.  Your brother is cold, give him your coat.  It didn't start with Jesus though, Cain's query about being his brother's keeper started that ball rolling.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 08:20:17 AM »
Not quite pure Marxism, as Marx spoke derisively of religion as an "opiate of the masses" and obviously a Roman Catholic would never get away with such language.

However, compare The Communist Manifesto with the passages in Francis's most recent statement. The rebukes of capitalism, the bemoaning of "income inequality," the blaming of all the world's problems on "trickle-down economics." Marx and Engels would be proud of the pontiff.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 08:33:51 AM »
Let the world adopt global Marxism and we'll see just how much influence Catholicism, or any religion, will have in our society.

People gravitate to religion in free market economic systems because these are the primary institutions for taking care of the poor and the sick, and people support these institutions out of a desire to improve their communities and support fellowship.  Once government takes over this role, people become jaded and just assume the government will handle whatever social ills come along.  All one need do is look at the high correlation between progressivism, atheism and charitable giving to know that religion fares far better in a free market society.

The pope is no doubt trying to find his church's relevance in a world growing more global and secular by the day.  But this message is the wrong way to go about it.  It would be a crying shame if the Catholic Church stopped being the legitimate conscience of our world.


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Offline Bigun

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 08:50:20 AM »
Christianity, in it's purist form is socialism.  Your brother is hungry, feed him.  Your brother is cold, give him your coat.  It didn't start with Jesus though, Cain's query about being his brother's keeper started that ball rolling.
Charity, at the end of gun or the lips of a Prince is not charity, it's robbery.

Your first statement is ABSOLUTELY and patently FALSE! The last is perfectly true!

Nowhere in the Bible will anyone find any reference to "giving your money to the state so the the state can take care of the poor" . What you DO find there instead are plenty of moral imperatives urging us to personally, of our on free and will and without any form of coercion, do something! There is no force spoken of EVER and that, at least in my book, is a VERY far cry from Socialism!

As you have pointed out, anything done under any form of duress is something but certainly NOT charity!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 08:52:42 AM by Bigun »
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Offline Bigun

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 08:55:13 AM »
I also think Rush is absolutely right on in what he says here!
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Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 09:15:06 AM »
I also think Rush is absolutely right on in what he says here!

I do as well.  As a former Catholic I am cautious in what I say about the church that many other's still call their own.  However, the Catholic church has been targeted for subversive thought and infiltrated by subversive actors for many, many decades now.  So it never surprises me when I see this type of propaganda flowing from it.  It is just another result of that "long march through the institutions" that we see the results of in the world around us each and every day.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 09:45:36 AM »
Your first statement is ABSOLUTELY and patently FALSE! The last is perfectly true!

Nowhere in the Bible will anyone find any reference to "giving your money to the state so the the state can take care of the poor" . What you DO find there instead are plenty of moral imperatives urging us to personally, of our on free and will and without any form of coercion, do something! There is no force spoken of EVER and that, at least in my book, is a VERY far cry from Socialism!

As you have pointed out, anything done under any form of duress is something but certainly NOT charity!

You are entirely correct in that Christianity is NOT AT ALL the same as Marxism.

Christ's words are a directive to individuals who follow HIM, and absolutely nothing to do with government.

There is plenty in Scripture about working hard and not being slothful, which is what socialism is all about.

Not the same at all.  Jesus never taught robbery.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 10:15:36 AM »
Let the world adopt global Marxism and we'll see just how much influence Catholicism, or any religion, will have in our society.

People gravitate to religion in free market economic systems because these are the primary institutions for taking care of the poor and the sick, and people support these institutions out of a desire to improve their communities and support fellowship.  Once government takes over this role, people become jaded and just assume the government will handle whatever social ills come along.  All one need do is look at the high correlation between progressivism, atheism and charitable giving to know that religion fares far better in a free market society.

The pope is no doubt trying to find his church's relevance in a world growing more global and secular by the day.  But this message is the wrong way to go about it.  It would be a crying shame if the Catholic Church stopped being the legitimate conscience of our world.

Excellent observation, prof. Excellently stated.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 11:00:35 AM »
Rush is right on the mark in his analysis if you base it on the media reports*. Jesus never once told his disciples to petition Herod to take care of the poor or heal the sick. He told us as Christians it was our individual duty.

*HOWEVER, the media has been misreporting what the Pope said.

Quote
However, a thorough reading of Evangelii Gaudium in the context of the Catechism promulgated by John Paul II fails to substantiate these accusations or celebrations. It’s true that Francis has scalding criticisms of dysfunctional capitalism as an end in itself. One has to consider that in the context of his front-row seat for the Argentinian version of it, where crony capitalism creates a huge distortion in the distribution of goods and the winners corrupt government to perpetuate those outcomes. Argentina hardly holds a monopoly on that development, though, and where gaps of inequality and poverty in these economies grow, criticism of those outcomes don’t make one a socialist.  Indeed, Francis even includes a disclaimer against “an irresponsible populism,” even while blasting economies that “attempt to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded” in the same sentence.

For those familiar with Catholic teaching on economics, Pope Francis speaks in a consistent voice with his predecessors......
- See more at: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2013/12/02/Media-Got-Pope-s-Remark-Capitalism-Wrong#sthash.yFkQgzI2.dpuf

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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 11:08:50 AM »
Christianity, in it's purist form is socialism.  Your brother is hungry, feed him.  Your brother is cold, give him your coat.  It didn't start with Jesus though, Cain's query about being his brother's keeper started that ball rolling.

What you described is not socialism, it is liberty. You freely give of your own choice to your brother.
Socialism is State Collectivism under clothed in the false excuse of taking care of those in need.

Socialism is the exact opposite of Christianity.

Christ taught us to take care of our brother ourselves.

Petitioning the government to do it for us is the antithesis of that. It is apathy. It is abdicating your personal responsibility to the government.

As we also know, as soon as you abdicate this to the government, the first victims are those who are the most in need. See Healthcare.gov/Obamacare as a case example of this. Not only that, it allows the government to dictate moral rules and it is a crime to go against said rules.

The only people who are fed via a socialist program are those who are politically connected. The rest just get crumbs off master government's table.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 11:09:05 AM »
Your first statement is ABSOLUTELY and patently FALSE! The last is perfectly true!

Nowhere in the Bible will anyone find any reference to "giving your money to the state so the the state can take care of the poor" . What you DO find there instead are plenty of moral imperatives urging us to personally, of our on free and will and without any form of coercion, do something! There is no force spoken of EVER and that, at least in my book, is a VERY far cry from Socialism!

As you have pointed out, anything done under any form of duress is something but certainly NOT charity!

I didn't mention government at all.  If you look at the earliest Christian groups, they were, for all intents and purposes, communes.  I'm sure along with Simon the Zealot and Roger the Solemn, there was most likely a "Dan the Does Enough to Get By".
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2013, 11:11:01 AM »
I didn't mention government at all.  If you look at the earliest Christian groups, they were, for all intents and purposes, communes.  I'm sure along with Simon the Zealot and Roger the Solemn, there was most likely a "Dan the Does Enough to Get By".

It's a matter of semantics.  Communal living is basically socialism.  Groups of early Christians lived communally.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 11:12:29 AM »
I didn't mention government at all.  If you look at the earliest Christian groups, they were, for all intents and purposes, communes.  I'm sure along with Simon the Zealot and Roger the Solemn, there was most likely a "Dan the Does Enough to Get By".

You did when you mentioned 'Socialism', that is a political ideology.

There is a BIG difference between communes people freely join and Communism (socialism to the extreme). In one case, you freely join the collective. In the other case, there is no free entry or exit from the collective and those who rule the collective take and distribute as their whim.

The difference is important, it is Liberty.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 11:25:28 AM »
You did when you mentioned 'Socialism', that is a political ideology.

There is a BIG difference between communes people freely join and Communism (socialism to the extreme). In one case, you freely join the collective. In the other case, there is no free entry or exit from the collective and those who rule the collective take and distribute as their whim.

The difference is important, it is Liberty.

I don't believe any political encyclopedia defines socialism with the requirement of armed oppression as it's basis.  Realities on the ground may make it necessary.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 12:34:21 PM »
I don't believe any political encyclopedia defines socialism with the requirement of armed oppression as it's basis.  Realities on the ground may make it necessary.

It's still the government in control and not individual liberty.

You don't need "armed oppression" to deny personal liberty.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 04:01:35 PM »
It's still the government in control and not individual liberty.

You don't need "armed oppression" to deny personal liberty.

Let's try it this way.  Remove "armed enforcement" and explain the difference between Christianity and Socialism?
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2013, 04:05:03 PM »
Let's try it this way.  Remove "armed enforcement" and explain the difference between Christianity and Socialism?

It's already been explained multiple times, onc........

Christianity is voluntary, individual, motivated by love for others and obedience to Jesus Christ.

Socialism is big government taxation, involuntary redistribution of wealth by people who don't give a rip about anyone but themselves.

Once again, it is a profound misunderstanding of who Christ is, and what His followers are commanded to do that causes your continued confusion.
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Offline Cincinnatus

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 04:18:35 PM »
Remove "armed enforcement" and explain the difference between Christianity and Socialism?

Quote
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Acts 5:1-4 [emphasis added]
 
Sharing, even in the early Church period you refer to as communal, was voluntary. The existence of private property was clearly recognized. Under Socialism private property rights are not recognized and sharing is compulsive.

One other thing: I always take news reports about what this Pope said or that Pope said with a grain of salt as I know the way it's being reported will have a Leftist cast. Perhaps Pope Francis said what is being reported, perhaps what he said is being misreported. Whichever I doubt he was advocating coercion when he talks about sharing.
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Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2013, 04:25:59 PM »
Let's try it this way.  Remove "armed enforcement" and explain the difference between Christianity and Socialism?

Socialism is forced extraction of $$ from the people, funneled into one secular monolith, which forces the people to fight over who gets it back.

That's similar to Christianity.... how? 

Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2013, 04:46:48 PM »
The first 10% tithing goes where?
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Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2013, 04:52:20 PM »
Tithing is voluntary.  Tithing does not necessarily have to go to one place.   You can tithe your 10%  to any number of charitable organizations if you wish.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism'
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2013, 04:55:56 PM »
Tithing is voluntary.  Tithing does not necessarily have to go to one place.   You can tithe your 10%  to any number of charitable organizations if you wish.

Is a collection plate passed around your Sunday services?
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