Author Topic: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank  (Read 825 times)

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Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« on: December 01, 2013, 08:39:49 AM »

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2013, 09:20:43 AM »
Well, it's one way to get a lot of young Americans to stop thinking about the shitting job market.....
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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2013, 05:54:34 PM »
Well, it's one way to get a lot of young Americans to stop thinking about the shitting job market.....
It worked for FDR and LBJ.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 06:26:17 PM »
I'm guessing Oceander doesn't have a 17-year-old son.
 Let those poor people get drafted! That's what they're there for (right, Oceander?)
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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2013, 08:27:49 PM »
As either the lone (or one of just a few) conscript here, I believe that mandatory service is a positive.

With a population of 160 million during WWII, about 16 million American people served in uniform during the war.

We won two major wars against formidable opponents, contrasted to our 11+ year fiasco, against Afghanistan.

If draftee families were involved, perhaps we would have tried different ways of ending it, like killing more enemy people (instead of waiting years for a surge, or negotiating with the enemy, or tolerating Pakistan's two-faced posture).

Truman had incentives to drop nukes on the Japs, to save American lives, and get it over with.

 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 01:36:16 AM »
You are not the lone conscript. I, too, was drafted and am adamantly opposed to its resumption. Our young men are NOT a national resource to be exploited by government. Moreover, as Milton Friedman noted, do we really want to be defended by an army of slaves?

The presence of draftees would not alter this: contrasted to our 11+ year fiasco, against Afghanistan. What is needed to resolve Afghanistan is not conscripts but better political leadership.

In addition the historical precedent you do cite to support the draft, Truman had incentives to drop nukes on the Japs, to save American lives, and get it over with., happened when the country's very life was in danger. No war we have fought since, neither Korea or Vietnam (when we had a draft as I well know), fuffills that criterion; and none of them have we fought to a satisfactory conclusion.
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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 06:03:59 PM »
Oceander Milbank proposes to establish the draft for all able bodied over 18 citizens.  I say add illegal or whatever you call those who are here by hook or crook.

It is a basic Conservative principle.  I endorse her recommendation.
All the best,
Al

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I am 3% Neanderthal and 97% Conservative.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2013, 10:52:00 PM »
[[ You are not the lone conscript. I, too, was drafted and am adamantly opposed to its resumption. Our young men are NOT a national resource to be exploited by government. Moreover, as Milton Friedman noted, do we really want to be defended by an army of slaves? ]]

Would you say the same of Israelis, who have a high level of obligatory military service?

Are they "slaves" by your definition?

I, too, was drafted -- not once, but TWO times. Once in October 1969, and again in May of 1970. I wasn't particulary happy about going, but I had nothing else going on in life at the time. I did ok, got by, got sent to Germany for a year, got discharged early due to force reductions. In retrospect, being in the military was an important part of my maturing in life, on a pathway which was eventually to bring me to conservatism.

A lot of young folks now could do worse.
And they _are_ doing worse....

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 06:00:20 AM »
The problem with any draft, going forward, any men and women wouldn't be killing and breaking things.  They would be bringing food to the infirm and pulling survivors from fallen buildings.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »
[[ You are not the lone conscript. I, too, was drafted and am adamantly opposed to its resumption. Our young men are NOT a national resource to be exploited by government. Moreover, as Milton Friedman noted, do we really want to be defended by an army of slaves? ]]

Would you say the same of Israelis, who have a high level of obligatory military service?

Are they "slaves" by your definition?
I certainly would.

Besides, the current draft system-- which subjects men to huge penalties but leaves women totally off the hook-- is wrong. I suspect that's exactly what led to the rise of feminism during Vietnam-- all the moral, upstanding young men were taken from their homes and shipped off to the military, leaving no one to defend against all the special interests.

Israel, on the other hand, subjects all citizens equally.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 12:39:33 PM »
The Draft would not be good for today's high tech military. Training a soldier now is a costly effort. Soldiers, even front line grunts, and no longer just there as another body to hold a firearm. They are trained with high tech equipment and skills. Recruiting is focusing more on aptitude than just getting manpower. I doubt a third of the citizens drafted could pass a ASVAB.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 05:15:05 PM »
Oceander Milbank proposes to establish the draft for all able bodied over 18 citizens.  I say add illegal or whatever you call those who are here by hook or crook.

It is a basic Conservative principle.  I endorse her recommendation.


...just a note....Oceander Milbank is not a female.   :beer:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 12:06:46 PM »
[[ The Draft would not be good for today's high tech military. Training a soldier now is a costly effort. Soldiers, even front line grunts, and no longer just there as another body to hold a firearm. They are trained with high tech equipment and skills. Recruiting is focusing more on aptitude than just getting manpower. I doubt a third of the citizens drafted could pass a ASVAB. ]]

Huh?

What about all those college graduates out there working "below" their education levels, or those who claim they can't find work at all?

Get them out of fast-food and give them a real job. Their education levels would be perfect for the "high tech" military that you describe above...

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2013, 01:00:09 PM »
The Draft would not be good for today's high tech military. Training a soldier now is a costly effort. Soldiers, even front line grunts, and no longer just there as another body to hold a firearm. They are trained with high tech equipment and skills. Recruiting is focusing more on aptitude than just getting manpower. I doubt a third of the citizens drafted could pass a ASVAB.
During Vietnam, tests were also used. The main component of aptitude for Infantry was IQ.

Draftees had equally high, or higher tests, than volunteers. Draftees fought and gave their lives willingly for our country. Don't forget, a lot of young men were hiding in college, to avoid the draft.

A friend of mine entered the Army as a draftee, and left 37 years later as a Lieutenant General, in combat arms, Airborne Ranger along the way.

The crazy idea that draftees were/are inferior is not proved. Draftees served nobly in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.

BTW, standards have been lowered or waived during this conflict, to get enough people to serve.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2013, 01:10:18 PM »
As either the lone (or one of just a few) conscript here, I believe that mandatory service is a positive.

With a population of 160 million during WWII, about 16 million American people served in uniform during the war.

We won two major wars against formidable opponents, contrasted to our 11+ year fiasco, against Afghanistan.

If draftee families were involved, perhaps we would have tried different ways of ending it, like killing more enemy people (instead of waiting years for a surge, or negotiating with the enemy, or tolerating Pakistan's two-faced posture).

Truman had incentives to drop nukes on the Japs, to save American lives, and get it over with.

Absolutely not.  Have we, as conservatives, not had ENOUGH of government mandates and interferences in our lives?

We had a draft in WWII because we HAD TO, to defeat an imperialist enemy. 

The purpose of war is to break things and kill people, both of which can be done with drones and a few strategically delivered missles. 

Drafting people because "it would do them some good" is a vacuous and epically liberal manipulation of human beings.

No draft. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2013, 08:08:44 AM »
During Vietnam, tests were also used. The main component of aptitude for Infantry was IQ.

Draftees had equally high, or higher tests, than volunteers. Draftees fought and gave their lives willingly for our country. Don't forget, a lot of young men were hiding in college, to avoid the draft.

A friend of mine entered the Army as a draftee, and left 37 years later as a Lieutenant General, in combat arms, Airborne Ranger along the way.

The crazy idea that draftees were/are inferior is not proved. Draftees served nobly in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.

BTW, standards have been lowered or waived during this conflict, to get enough people to serve.

It is not about inferiority or superiority, it is about the type of jobs the modern military needs and ROI (return on investment). We no longer use masses to storm beaches. We have masses behind computers. We have more Fobbits than Grunts, and the latter has a hundred grand of computer equipment strapped to him for sighting or logistics. A draft now would just be a waste of money, they would be sitting in barracks filling space.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2013, 08:10:57 AM »
Absolutely not.  Have we, as conservatives, not had ENOUGH of government mandates and interferences in our lives?

We had a draft in WWII because we HAD TO, to defeat an imperialist enemy. 

The purpose of war is to break things and kill people, both of which can be done with drones and a few strategically delivered missles. 

Drafting people because "it would do them some good" is a vacuous and epically liberal manipulation of human beings.

No draft.

Ditto to all that.

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Re: Save America: Restore the draft By Dana Milbank
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2013, 10:21:25 AM »
[[ The Draft would not be good for today's high tech military. Training a soldier now is a costly effort. Soldiers, even front line grunts, and no longer just there as another body to hold a firearm. They are trained with high tech equipment and skills. Recruiting is focusing more on aptitude than just getting manpower. I doubt a third of the citizens drafted could pass a ASVAB. ]]

Huh?

What about all those college graduates out there working "below" their education levels, or those who claim they can't find work at all?

Get them out of fast-food and give them a real job. Their education levels would be perfect for the "high tech" military that you describe above...
I purposely rejected military service (even though my field of study, meteorology, has a lot of use there) because I had experience with teachers who were in the military reserves. In both cases, they insisted so much on procedure over learning that although I learned much, I got poor grades. I had one reserve sergeant, an economics teacher, throw out my final exam and give me a zero because I didn't take notes the way he liked. In another, a Spanish teacher found out I managed to pass her classes despite not being able to finish her exorbitant amounts of homework, so she adjusted the grading system so I would fail. I still barely passed, but only by getting a perfect score on the state exam. I was left with a very bad opinion of the military after those experiences.

Not all of us are cut out for the service, and trying to force us into the service is a recipe for creating miserable, ineffective servicemen.


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