Author Topic: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations  (Read 1823 times)

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Offline rangerrebew

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EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« on: November 28, 2013, 04:56:25 AM »
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 03:58:51 PM »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 04:17:33 PM »
I'm not completely sure where they ended up on the surface water (private ponds) But I can see some EPA ecowhacko banning cattle drinking from stock ponds because they might get the water muddy...

I wish these people would save their own back yards and leave ours alone.
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 08:37:39 AM »
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Online Just_Victor

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 09:13:55 AM »
I missed the bit where science justified the classification of CO2 as a pollutant.  It is a critical component of our atmosphere.  Real "pollutants" can be removed entirely (assuming it's possible) to the benefit of all.  Removing CO2 would in fact end life as we know it.
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Offline uglybiker

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 10:36:16 AM »
I wish these people would save their own back yards and leave ours alone.

They consider everybody's back yard as their back yard.
And they're just waiting patiently for the day they can tell you to get the hell off their lawn.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 12:10:29 PM »
I missed the bit where science justified the classification of CO2 as a pollutant.  It is a critical component of our atmosphere.  Real "pollutants" can be removed entirely (assuming it's possible) to the benefit of all.  Removing CO2 would in fact end life as we know it.

You're right to focus on the amount and specifics.

For example, oxygen is needed for life, but if we had an atmosphere a few percent richer, we'd have uncontrolled fires and health issues.  How about ozone, O3?  Highly corrosive, yet protects us from UV when in the right place.

So CO2 has benefits, yet can still be a pollutant.  And that's how the science was presented when the regulations were put through. 
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Offline rodamala

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 01:16:40 PM »
They consider everybody's back yard as their back yard.
And they're just waiting patiently for the day they can tell you to get the hell off their lawn.

My back yard is where my rifle range is.  Target practice has just been raised to a new level of FUN!

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2016, 04:35:06 PM »
You're right to focus on the amount and specifics.

For example, oxygen is needed for life, but if we had an atmosphere a few percent richer, we'd have uncontrolled fires and health issues.  How about ozone, O3?  Highly corrosive, yet protects us from UV when in the right place.

So CO2 has benefits, yet can still be a pollutant.  And that's how the science was presented when the regulations were put through.

The science I have read does little to recognize the fact that the earth is seeking equilibrium in many different ways.  It has the abilities to take care of the majority of the changes it sees in chemicals and react accordingly.

I have seen few studies that take this into account.

God created a wondrous planet for us to dwell upon.
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 04:39:53 PM »
God created a wondrous planet for us to dwell upon.
Amen. And somehow I doubt that a few SUVs are going to change anything.
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Online driftdiver

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 04:53:02 PM »
You're right to focus on the amount and specifics.

For example, oxygen is needed for life, but if we had an atmosphere a few percent richer, we'd have uncontrolled fires and health issues.  How about ozone, O3?  Highly corrosive, yet protects us from UV when in the right place.

So CO2 has benefits, yet can still be a pollutant.  And that's how the science was presented when the regulations were put through.

@Suppressed
The EPAs leftist agenda is obvious and far reaching.   Its far more about pushing their agenda of social control then any specific part of our environment.   If it were about the environment they'd have their superfunds cleaned up and wouldn't be creating new ones by releasing millions of gallons of water polluted with heavy metals.
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Online Fishrrman

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 10:11:48 PM »
Suppressed wrote:
"So CO2 has benefits, yet can still be a pollutant."

Carbon dioxide is not now, nor has it ever been a "pollutant".

It's as natural to the atmosphere and environment as is nitrogen or oxygen.

It's literally a building block of life itself.

Anything else is a leftist lie, plain and simple.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 10:57:28 AM »
@Suppressed
The EPAs leftist agenda is obvious and far reaching.   Its far more about pushing their agenda of social control then any specific part of our environment.   If it were about the environment they'd have their superfunds cleaned up and wouldn't be creating new ones by releasing millions of gallons of water polluted with heavy metals.

@driftdiver

The cost of cleanup of the Superfund sites industry has dumped onto the taxpayer far exceeds what funds are available each year.  So, no...they wouldn't.

But could we not say the same for industry? 
After all, the release of which you speak was caused because a private company refused to clean up the mess they were causing.  If they'd been responsible and dealt with the problem before the water pressure built up, there would have been no trouble.  But they dumped it onto you and me.

Could EPA's priorities be set better?  ABSOLUTELY!    But I deal with EPA personnel on a daily basis, and though I have my problems with them, they are conscientious, hard-working, bright people.
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Online driftdiver

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 11:39:47 AM »
@driftdiver

The cost of cleanup of the Superfund sites industry has dumped onto the taxpayer far exceeds what funds are available each year.  So, no...they wouldn't.

But could we not say the same for industry? 
After all, the release of which you speak was caused because a private company refused to clean up the mess they were causing.  If they'd been responsible and dealt with the problem before the water pressure built up, there would have been no trouble.  But they dumped it onto you and me.

Could EPA's priorities be set better?  ABSOLUTELY!    But I deal with EPA personnel on a daily basis, and though I have my problems with them, they are conscientious, hard-working, bright people.

@Suppressed
If they really cared about the environment they would focus on the massively polluted sites.  They don't.  They let them linger for decades in some cases.

The release of water at the mine site was directly caused by the EPA and its contractor who was following EPA directions.   They were warned by their consultant that it would happen if they did what they did.  They did it anyway. 

The EPA is full of radical activists who seek to use the power of the government and a gun to further their private agenda of social control.   They seek to control the people of this country and manipulate regulations & legal proceedings to further that cause.   They ignore the law and Congressional oversight.    I sincerely hope and pray 95% of them are tossed out on the street and their budget for their activism is throttled.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:40:53 AM by driftdiver »
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Offline INVAR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 11:50:20 AM »
If everyone would simply realize and accept the fact that the Federal Beast has made itself wholly illegitimate, things like this crap from the EPA simply need to be ignored en masse.

All the Beast has is guns they will put to our heads to force compliance with tyranny.

And that ought to tell you what time it is.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 12:09:09 PM »
The science I have read does little to recognize the fact that the earth is seeking equilibrium in many different ways.  It has the abilities to take care of the majority of the changes it sees in chemicals and react accordingly.

I have seen few studies that take this into account.

God created a wondrous planet for us to dwell upon.

Yes, there are both positive and negative feedbacks.  While the negative feedbacks tend to maintain homeostasis (keeping it from changing), positive feedbacks exacerbate the problem (for example, as permafrost melts, it releases more methane, which causes further melting).

But in general, as there's an input to one side of the equation, the "fulcrum" shifts.  So when carbon was taken out of the atmosphere during the Carboniferous Period, the climate cooled.  As we put it back into the atmosphere by burning the coal, for example, we would expect it to shift back to that equilibrium.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2016, 12:24:26 PM »
@Suppressed
If they really cared about the environment they would focus on the massively polluted sites.  They don't.  They let them linger for decades in some cases.

@driftdiver

Again, nearly or over 90% of the money spent in Superfund isn't available for cleanup.  It goes to legal costs.  Yes, 85-90%!

There's not NEARLY enough to clean up all the sites fast.  Taxpayers would rightly be screaming their heads off if the EPA paid expedited costs to do rapid cleanups at places where it was even scientifically feasible!  Most places, it's not scientifically feasible.

And sites are listed on a National Priorities List (NPL).  And many are cleaned up.
 
Also, at many locations, the idea is to get the responsible parties to pay, rather than the taxpayer picking up the huge costs.  There's only so fast you can push before the company decides to go bankrupt and dump costs onto the taxpayer.  Again, is that what we want?

Quote
The release of water at the mine site was directly caused by the EPA and its contractor who was following EPA directions.   They were warned by their consultant that it would happen if they did what they did.  They did it anyway.

Because the private sector had left the mess and hadn't cleaned it up! EPA wouldn't have been there if there wasn't already environmental damage left by the private sector! 

Funny, but the usual course of action for EPA would be to study the problem more before taking action, but pressure has been put on EPA to "speed things up" (look in the mirror), so they took action without the full study.  (Plus, the situation was building up to a natural blowout, so an Interim Measure had to be taken.)

What they did was wrong.  They should have listened to their contractor.  EPA is quite often arrogant, and this time it cost them (and us).

Quote
The EPA is full of radical activists who seek to use the power of the government and a gun to further their private agenda of social control.
   

Yes, there are many like that in the EPA, along with the sane.

Quote
I sincerely hope and pray 95% of them are tossed out on the street and their budget for their activism is throttled.

I want the bad ones gone.  I want the good ones staying.  I think that the number isn't 95%, except in upper echelon.  In fact, even some of the "activist" types do good science and are responsible.  You might not realize this, but EPA has already made big cuts to many of their personnel.  Trouble is, they cut from core areas, and boosted others.

The budget should be better focused.  Core-mission funding should be restored, and the activist stuff should be curtailed.
+++++++++
"In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance" --Randy Marsh

"A man doesn't automatically get my respect.  He has to beg for it." --Jack Handey

"He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent." --Foghorn Leghorn

Online Just_Victor

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2016, 12:53:24 PM »
Yes, there are both positive and negative feedbacks.  While the negative feedbacks tend to maintain homeostasis (keeping it from changing), positive feedbacks exacerbate the problem (for example, as permafrost melts, it releases more methane, which causes further melting).

But in general, as there's an input to one side of the equation, the "fulcrum" shifts.  So when carbon was taken out of the atmosphere during the Carboniferous Period, the climate cooled.  As we put it back into the atmosphere by burning the coal, for example, we would expect it to shift back to that equilibrium.

Part of every Mechanical Engineers' education is feedback loop system analysis (2 semesters of Advanced Dynamic Systems).  It's been some time since I solved the differential equations, but I remember how to do the analysis.  The thing is, I keep hearing about the earth's climate as having positive feedbacks.  Positive feed backs are naturally unstable.  Any perturbation will cause the system to oscillate out of control.  Given that the earth and it's resident life have been here for several billion years with countless external forcing influences, I doubt that there are any positive feedbacks with any degree of influence on the system.  Otherwise , the climate would have long ago oscillated out of control and wiped us all out.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 12:57:14 PM by Just_Victor »
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2016, 01:10:47 PM »
@driftdiver
But I deal with EPA personnel on a daily basis, and though I have my problems with them, they are conscientious, hard-working, bright people.
This must be one of those best and brightest - the head of the EPA which resigns to protest against building the Keystone Pipeline.

Oh, and BTW, she has served on the corrupt Clinton Foundation since

http://nypost.com/2013/01/02/exit-of-epa-boss-a-protest/
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Online driftdiver

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2016, 01:12:47 PM »
@driftdiver

Again, nearly or over 90% of the money spent in Superfund isn't available for cleanup.  It goes to legal costs.  Yes, 85-90%!

There's not NEARLY enough to clean up all the sites fast.  Taxpayers would rightly be screaming their heads off if the EPA paid expedited costs to do rapid cleanups at places where it was even scientifically feasible!  Most places, it's not scientifically feasible.

And sites are listed on a National Priorities List (NPL).  And many are cleaned up.
 
Also, at many locations, the idea is to get the responsible parties to pay, rather than the taxpayer picking up the huge costs.  There's only so fast you can push before the company decides to go bankrupt and dump costs onto the taxpayer.  Again, is that what we want?

Because the private sector had left the mess and hadn't cleaned it up! EPA wouldn't have been there if there wasn't already environmental damage left by the private sector! 

Funny, but the usual course of action for EPA would be to study the problem more before taking action, but pressure has been put on EPA to "speed things up" (look in the mirror), so they took action without the full study.  (Plus, the situation was building up to a natural blowout, so an Interim Measure had to be taken.)

What they did was wrong.  They should have listened to their contractor.  EPA is quite often arrogant, and this time it cost them (and us).
   

Yes, there are many like that in the EPA, along with the sane.

I want the bad ones gone.  I want the good ones staying.  I think that the number isn't 95%, except in upper echelon.  In fact, even some of the "activist" types do good science and are responsible.  You might not realize this, but EPA has already made big cuts to many of their personnel.  Trouble is, they cut from core areas, and boosted others.

The budget should be better focused.  Core-mission funding should be restored, and the activist stuff should be curtailed.

@Suppressed

Its called abuse and in many cases unconstitutional.   This is why the power of the govt must be limited.    If a person or company had done what the IRS did with that mine they would be jailed/sued into oblivion.   The EPA just says, oops my bad, and then proceed to lie about what happened.   

If they cared about the superfund sites they would find a solution and stop spending time and money trying to regulate puddles in our back yards.   
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Online driftdiver

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2016, 01:15:50 PM »
This must be one of those best and brightest - the head of the EPA which resigns to protest against building the Keystone Pipeline.

Oh, and BTW, she has served on the corrupt Clinton Foundation since

http://nypost.com/2013/01/02/exit-of-epa-boss-a-protest/

@IsailedawayfromFR

I've seen it first hand many times.  The relationships between the govt and well connected organizations are incredibly incestuous.   
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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2016, 01:25:41 PM »
@driftdiver

Again, nearly or over 90% of the money spent in Superfund isn't available for cleanup.  It goes to legal costs.  Yes, 85-90%!

You just brought up another issue that is pertinent - taxpayers paying for lawyers, not environmental cleanup.

Quote
Because the private sector had left the mess and hadn't cleaned it up! EPA wouldn't have been there if there wasn't already environmental damage left by the private sector! 

If the EPA would stop spending time and money on frivolous adventures such as going after CO2 polluters or issuing all these new regulations, perhaps these cleanups could be addressed much better.  Of course a lot of them of necessity must be done by using public monies if pollution was done prior to the enactment of any laws to the contrary.

The federal government, particularly the DOD, is the absolute worst polluter in the history of this country.  And how much of the EPA monies are dedicated to that?

Oh, and how about the EPA's role in cleaning up this mess which they helped fund.
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Offline Hondo69

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2016, 04:38:53 PM »
Some government agencies are too broken to fix.

Offline INVAR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2016, 05:13:16 PM »
The EPA is a cancer and beyond fixing.

It needs to be removed or the patient will die.

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: EPA preparing to unleash a deluge of new regulations
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2016, 06:11:21 PM »
@Suppressed

If they cared about the superfund sites they would find a solution and stop spending time and money trying to regulate puddles in our back yards.

I wish I would have taken a pic of a puddle like you described near a well we were drilling in California.

The state environmental authority had it roped off with signs although any idiot could tell it was simply a 20' diameter wet area.

The CA govt charged the company drilling the well an 'environmental fee' so a college grad student could be hired around the clock to monitor the environmental effects of the activity.  Guess that paid to educate the next generation of envirowackos.

Unbelievable, stupid actions, endemic of an out-of-control government.
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