Author Topic: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17  (Read 798 times)

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SPQR

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China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« on: November 19, 2013, 10:38:22 PM »
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 06:13:57 PM by SPQR »

Offline flowers

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2013, 12:21:48 PM »
Meanwhile obama and his minions destroy our military.


Liberal_Spy

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 01:48:02 PM »
Meanwhile obama and his minions destroy our military.

By no stretch of the imagination is China's military technology even remotely as advanced as our own. If we cut military spending in half we would still spend much more on military than any other country on Earth; nobody comes close. Our military would absolutely brutalize any fighting force on the planet.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 01:54:04 PM by Liberal_Spy »

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 04:31:08 PM »
Meanwhile obama and his minions destroy our military.


5 Things the Pentagon Isn't Telling Us About the Chinese Military

Think of it like an iceberg: The top lies in plain sight, but a lot more hides beneath the surface. 

In its annual appraisal of the Chinese military published last week, the U.S. Department of Defense seems to be describing an object it finds both familiar and mysterious. The report certainly answers many of the important issues concerning China's military, including its attempts to develop an anti-ship ballistic missile and its continuing fixation on Taiwan.

Yet for many crucial aspects of China's strategy, the Pentagon seems like it's just guessing. Here are the five most important questions about Beijing's defense strategy that remain stubbornly unanswered.

1. What are China's long-term defense spending plans?

Although China's official 2012 defense budget is $106 billion, an 11 percent increase over last year and a fourfold increase from a decade ago, the Pentagon places China's total military spending at somewhere between $120 and $180 billion. "Estimating actual PLA military expenditures is difficult because of poor accounting transparency and China's still incomplete transition from a command economy," the report notes, referring to the People's Liberation Army.

There have been no credible estimates of Beijing's long-term defense spending plans. On its current trajectory, China could overtake the United States as the world's biggest military spender in the 2020s or 2030s -- but there are too many unknown variables to accurately predict if this will happen. Is the PLA budget pegged to the growth of the wider economy, or have China's generals been promised double-digit growth even if the country suffers an economic downturn? Will growth slow once certain modernization milestones have been achieved, or are there no plans to close the PLA checkbook? What's clear is that the more funding the PLA receives, the closer it will come to achieving parity with the U.S. military.

2. What is China's nuclear strategy?

The Pentagon concludes that "China's nuclear arsenal currently consists of about 50-75 silo-based, liquid-fueled and road-mobile, solid-fueled ICBMs." The Pentagon doesn't attempt to estimate the total number of nuclear weapons that China possesses, although it's generally assumed to have a much smaller nuclear arsenal than the U.S. cache of over 5,000 nukes. Nonetheless, theories that Beijing possesses or plans to develop a much bigger nuclear weapons stockpile just won't die down. Speculation last year that China may have as many as 3,500 nuclear warheads -- predicated on rumors of a sprawling network of underground tunnels -- has been reliably trashed, but some still argue that Beijing sees a strategic opportunity in building a nuclear arsenal that could match or even exceed that of the United States in the coming decades.

China currently has only two Jin-class Type 094 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs) in service, the Pentagon tells us, and the missiles designed to arm the subs are not yet operational (though when they are, they will be nuclear-capable). Two submarines aren't much of a strategic deterrent for an aspiring superpower, but the true scope of the SSBN fleet that China plans to build remains unknown.

3. What is the Chinese navy up to?

American analysts often use the term "string of pearls" to describe Beijing's supposed strategy of establishing a network of foreign naval bases, especially in the Indian Ocean, but the Chinese don't. The latest Pentagon report does not discuss whether China plans to create a U.S.-style network of permanent forward bases for the PLA Navy.

Nonetheless, there is no shortage of speculation that China will eventually deploy military forces to port facilities it has constructed in places like Burma, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. The Seychelles has invited China to use its ports as resupply points for Chinese ships, but Beijing has insisted that this is not the establishment of a first foreign base, unconvincingly calling it a "re-supply port." The "places or bases" debate has already been running for some years, and it will continue to rumble on while Beijing remains tight-lipped about its long-range ambitions.

The Pentagon report also struggles to shed light on China's future aircraft carrier program, beyond the existence of the single ex-Soviet carrier that is currently undergoing sea trials. "Some components of China's first indigenously produced carrier may already be under construction," it suggests, adding that "China likely will build multiple aircraft carriers and associated support ships over the next decade." That's guesswork. It's unknown whether China envisages merely a couple of working aircraft carriers as floating trophies designed to symbolize the country's arrival as a world power, a handful of combat-capable carriers to drive home its territorial claims in the South China Sea, or a larger number of U.S.-style carrier battle groups with a mission to project force globally.

4. What kind of space capabilities is China developing?

China is becoming increasingly proficient in space. The report mentions that China is assembling its own GPS-style satellite network, blasted the Tiangong-1 spacelab into orbit in 2011, and has developed a ground-launched anti-satellite missile to improve its counter-space capabilities. But the Pentagon neglects to mention one of China's most ambitious space programs: the development of the Shenlong spaceplane and the possible associated development of advanced propulsion systems, whose existence increases the risk of a military space race with the United States.

It is not yet known whether Shenlong is anything more than a hi-tech experiment. But because of Shenlong's military potential, any information about it could allay or exacerbate growing fears within the U.S. military that the PLA Air Force has more than a passing interest in space operations.

5. Paper tiger or fire-breathing dragon?

There are many other imponderables in China's military. Chinese cyber-espionage has been effective in obtaining foreign military secrets, but it's unclear how much of this know-how has been successfully and usefully absorbed into China's own military programs and doctrines. The overhaul of the Chinese defense industry has revolutionized the country's indigenous capabilities, but how close has China really got to ironing out the kinks in its military-industrial structures and processes?

All of the unknowns feed into one larger question: Is the PLA worth the hype? China's military is untested; it hasn't fought a major campaign since a disastrous war with Vietnam in 1979. In the event of conflict, would its performance live up to the nation's expectations, or would disadvantages like corruption and inexperience critically undermine its war-fighting capability? Is the 21st-century PLA even designed to be used, or does it exist to prop up and counterbalance the Communist Party domestically in a world where Beijing calculates that large-scale warfare is increasingly unlikely? Maybe the answers to these questions are buried in some secure vault at the Pentagon, but they're not in its latest report.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/05/23/5_things_the_pentagon_isn_t_telling_us_about_the_chinese_military?print=yes&hidecomments=yes&page=full
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 04:37:45 PM by SPQR »

Offline flowers

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 06:06:10 PM »
fl


Offline EC

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 06:52:18 PM »
By no stretch of the imagination is China's military technology even remotely as advanced as our own. If we cut military spending in half we would still spend much more on military than any other country on Earth; nobody comes close. Our military would absolutely brutalize any fighting force on the planet.

With respect - don't equate spending with capability. The Gurkha troops will get really pissed if you do that - and you don't want them angry at you.

Thing I noticed about US forces in the field - sure, they are tough and smart and well equipped, but they rely on their toys too much, and less on their own training and initiative. During 2002, we'd constantly get the call "Bunch of Yanks are lost in your sector again, can you go get them?" It got to be a running joke after a while. Not saying they all did by any means, but it happened often enough that we had a separate code for it.
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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 10:05:44 PM »
With respect - don't equate spending with capability. The Gurkha troops will get really pissed if you do that - and you don't want them angry at you.

Thing I noticed about US forces in the field - sure, they are tough and smart and well equipped, but they rely on their toys too much, and less on their own training and initiative. During 2002, we'd constantly get the call "Bunch of Yanks are lost in your sector again, can you go get them?" It got to be a running joke after a while. Not saying they all did by any means, but it happened often enough that we had a separate code for it.

All Good Points. Another worrisome point are the new joint exercises with the Russians in the Sea of Japan. For years there has been this Sino-Soviet/Russian split and now they are joining forces.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:19:23 PM by SPQR »

Offline Chieftain

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 10:24:52 PM »
yah...and the Chinese are SO well versed on aircraft carriers.......


SPQR

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:52 PM »
yah...and the Chinese are SO well versed on aircraft carriers.......

Give them a couple of years and assistance from the Russian Navy
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:27:13 PM by SPQR »

Offline EC

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 02:20:27 AM »
All Good Points. Another worrisome point are the new joint exercises with the Russians in the Sea of Japan. For years there has been this Sino-Soviet/Russian split and now they are joining forces.

That is a huge worry. An alliance shift that major is definitely going to have repercussions down the line. It could be pragmatic: both sides agreeing to a joint exercise to get a more accurate feel for each others capabilities. It doesn't feel that way, though.

yah...and the Chinese are SO well versed on aircraft carriers.......

It's a boat. Punch a big enough hole in it, it will sink. Don't have to know much about carriers to understand that.
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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2013, 03:24:58 AM »
That is a huge worry. An alliance shift that major is definitely going to have repercussions down the line. It could be pragmatic: both sides agreeing to a joint exercise to get a more accurate feel for each others capabilities. It doesn't feel that way, though.

It's a boat. Punch a big enough hole in it, it will sink. Don't have to know much about carriers to understand that.

In October, Chinese warships circumnavigated the Strait of Magellan for the first time. This poses a problem for the United States because China can now project their power anywhere around the world. You are correct about carriers.  It does not take a rocket scientist to figure how to run carrier operations. All you need is very experienced naval personnel.


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8427735.html


« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 03:27:45 AM by SPQR »

Offline EC

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2013, 03:49:10 AM »
In October, Chinese warships circumnavigated the Strait of Magellan for the first time. This poses a problem for the United States because China can now project their power anywhere around the world. You are correct about carriers.  It does not take a rocket scientist to figure how to run carrier operations. All you need is very experienced naval personnel.


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8427735.html

It'll take them a while to get used to the Atlantic. She is one treacherous bitch. But not too long, I fear.
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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2013, 03:56:28 AM »
It'll take them a while to get used to the Atlantic. She is one treacherous bitch. But not too long, I fear.

I agree. What is worse is the Panama Canal will be on their hit list if they master the Atlantic Ocean. That is a very important link for commerce and military transport . It also makes a very attractive target.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 03:57:44 AM by SPQR »

Liberal_Spy

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 11:09:30 AM »

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 08:17:58 PM »
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 08:22:00 PM by SPQR »

Offline EC

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 05:35:35 AM »
Nice find!

Quote
The Chinese government's published 2012 military budget is about US$106.4 billion,the second largest in the world behind the US and up about 11.2% from 2011.[ As of 2012, China's military budget is approximate 1/6 (17.3%) of the US military budget.

China can do a lot more with a lower budget. First off, they make their own weaponry in state run factories. Given their tendency to shoot people, there is incentive to maintain quality at a low price. Their soldiers are not particularly well paid and their military is far less "top heavy" than the USA or the UK. They don't waste money on things like outreach programs and sensitivity training.
Add to that a disregard for elaborate safety gear and an expectation that boots on the ground instead of elaborate remote drone systems and you have trimmed a lot of pork out of the budget.

They are moving more towards electronic and cyber warfare, true. Why shouldn't they? It's not like they make most of the world's electronics anyway! :whistle:

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Re: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 05:40:43 AM »
Nice find!

China can do a lot more with a lower budget. First off, they make their own weaponry in state run factories. Given their tendency to shoot people, there is incentive to maintain quality at a low price. Their soldiers are not particularly well paid and their military is far less "top heavy" than the USA or the UK. They don't waste money on things like outreach programs and sensitivity training.
Add to that a disregard for elaborate safety gear and an expectation that boots on the ground instead of elaborate remote drone systems and you have trimmed a lot of pork out of the budget.

They are moving more towards electronic and cyber warfare, true. Why shouldn't they? It's not like they make most of the world's electronics anyway! :whistle:

I agree with you

 :beer:


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