Author Topic: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?  (Read 4728 times)

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Offline Cincinnatus

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Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« on: November 03, 2013, 05:22:48 PM »
Yeah, here we go with the Kennedy thing again. I love it.  :broc:

Quote
And so it begins – the plentiful coverage of the 50th anniversary of the assassination of U.S. president John F. Kennedy. The date itself is weeks away and there will be countless commemorative programs, specials and copious punditry on TV.

JFK: The Smoking Gun (Sunday, Discovery, 8 p.m.) is one of the most controversial of the bunch. Made for the tiny U.S. cable channel Reelz, it’s a two-hour docudrama based on the book of the same name by former Australian police detective Colin McLaren. He claims to have spent years on “the forensic cold-case investigation of JFK’s assassination” and says he believes he has found “the smoking gun” that killed the president. His conclusion is not the accepted story.

McLaren’s belief has its roots in research done by the late Howard Donahue, a U.S. ballistics and firearms expert who spent years studying the assassination. Donahue’s interest began when CBS hired him to help test theories about the assassination in 1967. That experience made him deeply suspicious. Donahue’s work was documented in Bonar Menninger’s book Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK. Those obsessed with the JFK assassination will know all of this already. What’s new is the claim by McLaren that newly released information supports Donahue’s theory and, as a police officer, he believes them to be plausible.

It’s essentially this: a Secret Service agent accidentally shot and killed Kennedy. Lee Harvey Oswald did indeed shoot, but only one bullet hit Kennedy. The claim here is that George Hickey, a Secret Service agent riding in the car behind Kennedy, panicked and a gun he was unfamiliar with accidentally discharged, hitting and actually killing Kennedy.

Hickey died two years ago and isn’t around to answer the charge. He eventually responded to the Bonar Menninger book with a lawsuit, but a court found he’d waited too long and the book was never amended or removed from sale. McLaren’s faith in the Hickey theory is based on complicated ballistics analysis. (I’ve seen McLaren try to demonstrate the ins and outs of his theories – “the flawed trajectory analysis” – at the TV critics tour in Los Angeles and remain unconvinced. But I’m no ballistics guy.) And, for good measure, he says the Secret Service agents had been out partying the night before, were probably hungover and poorly trained.

As a docudrama, JFK: The Smoking Gun has, admirably, few of the cheesy dramatizations that are the hallmark of this type of production. The focus is mostly on a painstaking analysis of Donahue’s work and McLaren’s bolstering of that research with new work.

It is a fascinating production, especially for viewers who have only a hazy picture of the theories and beliefs that surround the assassination. This isn’t about a widespread conspiracy to kill Kennedy. It’s about the Warren Commission being wrong, simply mistaken, about the bullet that killed Kennedy and the forensic evidence showing how correct Howard Donahue was. It’s about guns and ammo, and mistakes being made. It’s excellent viewing, whether you believe it or not.
[emphasis added]

I highlighted the bit about Donahue because I have Menninger's book in my little library about JFK's assassination and based on the ballistics evidence provided by Donahue, assuming it's accurate, I find it to be the most persuasive explanation I have read thus far as to what really happened. Others may disagree and somehow I am pretty sure they will.

In any case I shall endeavor to catch that TV show tonight. Gonna get dark early anyway. Hello, winter.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/did-a-hungover-secret-service-agent-accidentally-shoot-jfk/article15198269/
 
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 05:41:47 PM »
I'm re-watching the Kennedy mini-series on REELZ right now. 

and it is true the SS Agents did go out partying that night and were not in good shape to protect the president that day. 
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
All I know for sure is that Oswald didn't do it all by himself!

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 06:14:42 PM »
All I know for sure is that Oswald didn't do it all by himself!


I've never believed he did.
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline EC

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 06:26:40 PM »
No.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 12:10:50 PM »
It was Miss Peacock in the conservatory with a revolver.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 12:47:14 PM »
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 01:07:03 PM »
All I know for sure is that Oswald didn't do it all by himself!

I believe he could have. I've been in the depository and looked down at the X in the road and it isn't very difficult of a shot. I also have been able to pull off 3 shots in 6 seconds with my Mosin which is similar in power to the Carcano Oswald used except it has a much sticker bolt than the Carcano. The shot was only 88 yards. I could do a small group 88 yard shot with iron sights- Oswald had a 4 power scope.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 01:14:29 PM »
I believe he could have. I've been in the depository and looked down at the X in the road and it isn't very difficult of a shot. I also have been able to pull off 3 shots in 6 seconds with my Mosin which is similar in power to the Carcano Oswald used except it has a much sticker bolt than the Carcano. The shot was only 88 yards. I could do a small group 88 yard shot with iron sights- Oswald had a 4 power scope.


If you watched the documentary last night it isn't the number of shots it is the angle of the shots. One shot clearly did come from Oswald and the trajectory proves it out 100%.  The problem is there is another shot that the angle could not have come from Oswald.  The tried to "claim" (actually Specter did in the Warren investigation) it hit the pavement and then jumped up and hit and killed Kennedy - this was the only way they could justify the angle that didn't work... problem is people in the car reported smelling gunpowder and there was no way they would have smelled gunpowder coming from the depository (wind, location, etc.)
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 02:41:17 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFVMMCwsss" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFVMMCwsss</a>
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:42:02 PM by Chieftain »

Offline SouthTexas

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Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 04:23:18 PM »

If you watched the documentary last night it isn't the number of shots it is the angle of the shots. One shot clearly did come from Oswald and the trajectory proves it out 100%.  The problem is there is another shot that the angle could not have come from Oswald.  The tried to "claim" (actually Specter did in the Warren investigation) it hit the pavement and then jumped up and hit and killed Kennedy - this was the only way they could justify the angle that didn't work... problem is people in the car reported smelling gunpowder and there was no way they would have smelled gunpowder coming from the depository (wind, location, etc.)

To many inconsistencies to cover here but one that WAS finally mentioned in these books is that one bullet goes through Kennedy, then Connally  breaks out a 4 inch section of rib, breaks a wrist, lodges fully in the governor's hip, and is eventually found, fully intact, on a hospital gurney. The next bullet, fired immediately afterwards and from the same lot of ammunition supposedly, explodes on impact.  Doesn't work that way! Never has and never will. Two different guns and two different missiles.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 04:25:40 PM by Bigun »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2013, 04:47:48 PM »
You see where Hollyweird Leftist and all round stooge Woody Harrelson was claiming his father was/wasn't the second shooter?
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 05:11:08 PM »
This is simply and only my two cents.  It won't change the debate one iota.  But...

I am a shooter and I am at home when at the range.  I have hunted deer since I was 12 years old.  I load my own ammunition.  From that experience, I feel I know how to shoot.  I have never been in the military.

I have been in the book depository perhaps a half dozen times.  I have been on street level in Dallas more frequently than that.  The shots taken by Oswald were not difficult.  The motorcade was moving away at something like 20 mph and nearly in the direction of Oswald's line of sight giving the target a near stationary attitude.  I have seen and made far more difficult shots with successful follow-up shots - many times.

Also, keep in mind, a fired bullet in flight is a projectile heavily loaded with energy that relies on a gyroscopic spin to keep it stable during flight.  But, once it strikes something, it can take very bizarre and erratic paths.

So... it is my belief that Oswald was the lone gunman that day.  President Kennedy's death was the result of a tragic nexus of a crazy gunman and opportunity.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 07:55:59 PM »
This is simply and only my two cents.  It won't change the debate one iota.  But...

I am a shooter and I am at home when at the range.  I have hunted deer since I was 12 years old.  I load my own ammunition.  From that experience, I feel I know how to shoot.  I have never been in the military.

I have been in the book depository perhaps a half dozen times.  I have been on street level in Dallas more frequently than that.  The shots taken by Oswald were not difficult.  The motorcade was moving away at something like 20 mph and nearly in the direction of Oswald's line of sight giving the target a near stationary attitude.  I have seen and made far more difficult shots with successful follow-up shots - many times.

Also, keep in mind, a fired bullet in flight is a projectile heavily loaded with energy that relies on a gyroscopic spin to keep it stable during flight.  But, once it strikes something, it can take very bizarre and erratic paths.

So... it is my belief that Oswald was the lone gunman that day.  President Kennedy's death was the result of a tragic nexus of a crazy gunman and opportunity.

Reasonable people can disagree and I suppose that will be the case here. I have been around firearms literally for my entire life and am a Vietnam vet who served there in 1965-66 with government employees who had been in Dallas that day. I have been to Dealy Plaza and the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building several times  I have read virtually everything that has been written about this including the complete Warren Commission Report (I still have a copy on my bookshelf and it is a complete and total whitewash IMHO).  I saw the Zapruder film the very first time it was ever on TV, an event  that got one Jerry Rivers, aka Geraldo Rivera,  banished from the national media for many years, and will tell you what you see when they show that now is NOT the same as what I saw that night.

The question is not whether or not Oswald COULD have made those shots but instead DID Oswald make those shots! I say he didn't.  In fact, I personally doubt that he even fired that piece of junk weapon at all that day. And I KNOW it was a piece of junk because I have owned a couple of them myself!.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 07:58:42 PM by Bigun »

Offline Oceander

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2013, 08:17:15 PM »
Does it really matter at this point?

Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2013, 08:20:34 PM »
Does it really matter at this point?

Yes! As a matter of fact it DOES matter! A lot!

Offline Oceander

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 08:22:40 PM »
Yes! As a matter of fact it DOES matter! A lot!


Why?

Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2013, 08:26:46 PM »
It matters because what they did in this case opened the doors to all that has happened since and until we get to the bottom of it once and for all we will NEVER be a free people again!

At least that's how I see it.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2013, 08:29:01 PM »
It matters because what they did in this case opened the doors to all that has happened since and until we get to the bottom of it once and for all we will NEVER be a free people again!

At least that's how I see it.

Once again, reasonable minds will just have to disagree on that point.  E.g., the Kennedy assassination was insignificant to the election of Barack H. Obama.

Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2013, 08:32:04 PM »

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2013, 08:34:06 PM »
The show is replaying on Reelz tonight. So far it is interesting.

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2013, 08:42:29 PM »
The show is replaying on Reelz tonight. So far it is interesting.

Watched last night..it was very convincing and even plausible...but I always fee that way every time I watch a show like that with a new theory...we will never know for sure what really happened and who was responsible...well maybe Arlen Specter did..lol

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2013, 08:46:58 PM »


There are so many substantial areas of life where "the truth" is simply inaccessible; the Kennedy assassination is one of those: no one will ever know.  That being said, because there are so many such areas, the mere fact that we don't have "the truth" about the Kennedy assassination really doesn't mean much at all.

Online Bigun

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Re: Did a hungover Secret Service agent accidentally shoot JFK?
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2013, 08:48:22 PM »
The show is replaying on Reelz tonight. So far it is interesting.

In my view this is just one more attempt by the people who did this to find something that the people WILL buy into and not a true account of what actually happened.

Just an unfortunate accident indeed!

« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 08:48:56 PM by Bigun »


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