Author Topic: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster  (Read 1581 times)

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Offline rangerrebew

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« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 01:41:37 PM by rangerrebew »
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
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Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 01:54:07 PM »
Alienated? Alienated?

Nope. Try "So damned angry it is hard to even speak."

Look, between ourselves - the 20 odd countries in the Eurozone - we expect it. Lot of history of temporary alliances and long term hate (Don't forget, the UK and France have hated each other for over 1000 years, and that is one of the newer national conflicts over here.)

We have rules for spying. We follow them, scrupulously.
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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 02:08:00 PM »
Alienated? Alienated?

Nope. Try "So damned angry it is hard to even speak."

Look, between ourselves - the 20 odd countries in the Eurozone - we expect it. Lot of history of temporary alliances and long term hate (Don't forget, the UK and France have hated each other for over 1000 years, and that is one of the newer national conflicts over here.)

We have rules for spying. We follow them, scrupulously.
The UK hated France so much, they gave up hundreds of thousands of dead, to rescue the French from the Gerries--twice in the last 100 years.

Just sayin.

Obama brushes aside our European allies, because he has zero background in history, international relations, etc.

And his political instincts are lousy. He couldn't sit still for long enough, for a German to explain life behind the Iron Curtain.

Hier sind eine film, von Deutschland "The Lives of Others"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

Almost everybody in Europe lived under the Nazis, or the Soviets, or both.

And the US never has. So Obama has absolutely no context regarding the way Europeans feel about his spying, his lies, his excuses, etc.

And Europe already has CCV in more public areas, than the USA.

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Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 02:23:17 PM »
The UK hated France so much, they gave up hundreds of thousands of dead, to rescue the French from the Gerries--twice in the last 100 years.

Just sayin.

Obama brushes aside our European allies, because he has zero background in history, international relations, etc.

And his political instincts are lousy. He couldn't sit still for long enough, for a German to explain life behind the Iron Curtain.

Hier sind eine film, von Deutschland "The Lives of Others"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others

Almost everybody in Europe lived under the Nazis, or the Soviets, or both.

And the US never has. So Obama has absolutely no context regarding the way Europeans feel about his spying, his lies, his excuses, etc.

And Europe already has CCV in more public areas, than the USA.

Well - we did both hate the Germans more .....  :whistle: It happened to be a time when we were both bored of fighting each other. Maybe a little bit of "no one punches him but me" added in.

But the CCTV thing - with traffic cameras and intelligent swipe cards - is a huge part of it. We really don't expect a lot of privacy in the street. Our homes, cars and persons are sacred and we expect them to be kept that way. Last time I got pulled over (I was driving a wee bit fast and admit it) the police asked me to empty my own pockets. This searching of the car you guys have? It doesn't happen anywhere in Europe unless the driver is visibly impaired. No cop would ever even ask to look in your vehicle.

Obama's lying? Look - we are used to lies. It is politics, that is what they do. Just, make them convincing, OK? He sounds like a two year old with crumbs on his shirt denying he stole a cookie.

He is doing worse. He is pissing off a group of nations with an aggregate of 40,000 years of experience at warfare, diplomacy and screwing over the enemy while smiling. At the moment, the USA is not the enemy (Except to the French - they are still hugely annoyed at the whole "surrender monkey" thing, still.) Obama seems to want to change that.
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 02:24:32 PM »
Not only Europe, the leader of Brazile cancelled a meeting with Obama.  We are pretty much hated around the world right now - how is that hope and change working out for all you liberals.

Offline Relic

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 02:26:32 PM »
Alienated? Alienated?

Nope. Try "So damned angry it is hard to even speak."

Look, between ourselves - the 20 odd countries in the Eurozone - we expect it. Lot of history of temporary alliances and long term hate (Don't forget, the UK and France have hated each other for over 1000 years, and that is one of the newer national conflicts over here.)

We have rules for spying. We follow them, scrupulously.

What? The plan is working perfectly. Who needs Europe and all those... those... white people.

America's natural allies are now: Mexico, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Offline Relic

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 02:29:27 PM »
Not only Europe, the leader of Brazile cancelled a meeting with Obama.  We are pretty much hated around the world right now - how is that hope and change working out for all you liberals.

The people who have a clue, the media, don't care. Party uber alles.

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »
Not only Europe, the leader of Brazile cancelled a meeting with Obama.  We are pretty much hated around the world right now - how is that hope and change working out for all you liberals.

Any liberal that is not a complete fool is outraged over the NSA spying. Obama is not directly responsible for the illegal spying. This stuff has been going on and has been getting worse since 9/11.

Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 02:31:51 PM »
I will say one thing.

The vast majority of Europeans (including the UK) like the vast majority of Americans they meet, either here or in the USA.

Sure, there are some loud, obnoxious idiots - show me a single culture where there are not! I even met a rude Canadian once!

We can, and do, separate the actions of the government from the people themselves. Long practice. Over here it is government of the people. I don't need to tell you what your philosophy is, but we accept that most politicians at any level or any orientation are lying, unprincipled pricks.

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Liberal_Spy

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 02:32:47 PM »
but we accept that most politicians at any level or any orientation are lying, unprincipled pricks.


I like you.

Offline Relic

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 02:35:29 PM »
Any liberal that is not a complete fool is outraged over the NSA spying. Obama is not directly responsible for the illegal spying. This stuff has been going on and has been getting worse since 9/11.

See, that's where your liberal brainwashing shows brightest.

I'll try to help, even though I know I've lost you already. In the military, or a large corporation the person in charge is ultimately responsible. If something happens ON HIS WATCH, it's his responsibility. Are you suggesting that Obama is totally feckless and unable to stop anything, and totally unaware of everything going on around him?

Is it possible that since the NSA has expanded operations, and built a new facility, they did it with Obama's blessing?

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 02:38:38 PM »
See, that's where your liberal brainwashing shows brightest.

I'll try to help, even though I know I've lost you already. In the military, or a large corporation the person in charge is ultimately responsible. If something happens ON HIS WATCH, it's his responsibility. Are you suggesting that Obama is totally feckless and unable to stop anything, and totally unaware of everything going on around him?

Is it possible that since the NSA has expanded operations, and built a new facility, they did it with Obama's blessing?

I do not believe Obama has clean hands by any stretch of the imagination, but I also don't believe he is directly or even mostly responsible for this. I lost what little bit of respect I still had for Obama once the NSA thing blew up. He should have shown leadership and outrage over what happened, but instead he was more focused on trying to put pressure on Edward Snowden. I get the whole chain of command thing, and that the leader is always the one at fault, but he does not have direct control over the NSA and their operations, and a lot of the stuff they did happened before he was in office. I think most of our politicians secretly support spying on US citizens.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:41:03 PM by Liberal_Spy »

Offline Relic

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 02:42:03 PM »
I get the whole chain of command thing, and that the leader is always the one at fault, but he does not have direct control over the NSA and their operations. I think most of our politicians secretly support spying on US citizens.

Fair point. Obama isn't all powerful, but you do see that he failed to act. Good for you.

And not only do I agree with your last statement, I'd suggest that it's by an overwhelming majority that politicians want us spied on.

Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 02:42:05 PM »
I like you.

You ain't too bad yourself.

We found that out about 300 BC and we don't forget.

See, that's where your liberal brainwashing shows brightest.

I'll try to help, even though I know I've lost you already. In the military, or a large corporation the person in charge is ultimately responsible. If something happens ON HIS WATCH, it's his responsibility. Are you suggesting that Obama is totally feckless and unable to stop anything, and totally unaware of everything going on around him?

Is it possible that since the NSA has expanded operations, and built a new facility, they did it with Obama's blessing?

Lock that bolded bit. You know it well. Shit happens in your area - even something that couldn't be predicted - it is your ass on the grass. You are in charge. The buck doesn't stop with you - it slaps you until you run and scream.
Of course, if everything goes smooth, someone else will take the credit.
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Liberal_Spy

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 02:46:52 PM »
I'd suggest that it's by an overwhelming majority that politicians want us spied on.

One of the most important thing any of us can fight for is internet freedom. The government (all governments) want so bad to restrict and control the flow of information that is making their lives hell when it comes to lying to citizens. Access to information is all we have; it is our only hope. Them controlling the internet would be like Sauron killing Frodo and getting the ring. If it happens, it's over.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 03:02:42 PM by Liberal_Spy »

Offline musiclady

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 02:53:10 PM »
See, that's where your liberal brainwashing shows brightest.

I'll try to help, even though I know I've lost you already. In the military, or a large corporation the person in charge is ultimately responsible. If something happens ON HIS WATCH, it's his responsibility. Are you suggesting that Obama is totally feckless and unable to stop anything, and totally unaware of everything going on around him?

Is it possible that since the NSA has expanded operations, and built a new facility, they did it with Obama's blessing?

There are only two options for a liberal........

Either his master is diabolical, or his master is an idiot.

Well...........unless you consider the option that the liberal's master is BOTH.   ^-^

In any case, there is NO WAY that Obama is not responsible for the NSA scandal and all the other disasters on his watch.

HE is supposed to be the leader.  Only the brain dead think he's not responsible for what's going on under him.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 02:59:41 PM »
The most important thing any of us can fight for is internet freedom.

NO!!!!

Freedom. Full stop. Did you give your oath to upholding a specific line of the Constitution? You did not. You could not - it is all one. Pick one bit and you have an unraveled mess.

Internet freedom is the most visibly right now, because most of the 20 somethings demand it. Go on Reddit and watch them squeal about freedom of expression. Actually, don't go on Reddit, it is a horrible place, full of angry, ineffectual scum.

Yet - how about your freedom to move freely? Is that not as important? Your freedom to read what you want. Think what you want, do what you want? It is all one.

I know you been given a massive reading list already, but add the Magna Carta to it. That is the core of evething you have lived with your whole life.
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Liberal_Spy

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 03:02:20 PM »
NO!!!!

Freedom. Full stop. Did you give your oath to upholding a specific line of the Constitution? You did not. You could not - it is all one. Pick one bit and you have an unraveled mess.

Internet freedom is the most visibly right now, because most of the 20 somethings demand it. Go on Reddit and watch them squeal about freedom of expression. Actually, don't go on Reddit, it is a horrible place, full of angry, ineffectual scum.

Yet - how about your freedom to move freely? Is that not as important? Your freedom to read what you want. Think what you want, do what you want? It is all one.

I know you been given a massive reading list already, but add the Magna Carta to it. That is the core of evething you have lived with your whole life.

I didn't mean to insinuate that we shouldn't be fighting for all of our freedoms. I was more just saying that, in my opinion, the internet is very, very, VERY important when it comes to us being informed and having access to actual news.

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 03:03:43 PM »
Big Government means Big Bureaucracies, with Big Powers.

Top leaders come and go. Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, Obama. Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin.

Yet the FBI, CIA, NSA, KGB live on and influence the temporary leaders to their views.

So in the aftermath of 9/11/2001 Bush was convinced the security of the US depended on greater electronic eavesdropping. I'm sure much WAS shared with key European allies, about the situation.

The US was going ahead, with or without approval of our allies. Too much depended on it.

Fast-forward a few years, and the SECRET methods of our agencies are way, way to invasive for civilians in any of our supposedly free countries.

The sitting president at the time is Obama, cares little about details except protecting his power, and politics. International relations is not his strength.

What to do now? Return to pre-9/11 technology?

I think not. Like healthcare, Obama is in over his pay grade when it comes to problem solving, so he'll try to talk his way, until somebody says--"....whoooa, hold them Prussian ponies.."

No way can Obama stop the NSA from collecting the raw data. He can direct them to not look at Merkel's but they can do it anyway.
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Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 03:09:30 PM »
I didn't mean to insinuate that we shouldn't be fighting for all of our freedoms. I was more just saying that, in my opinion, the internet is very, very, VERY important when it comes to us being informed and having access to actual news.

It most certainly is. We are talking right now in a way that would get either of us arrested and tortured in too many countries I could name.

It isn't the only fight. Narrowing your focus might be good tactics to win a battle. It is never a good strategy to win a war. Always, always always keep the whole picture in mind. Look at what the enemy defends - those are the things to hit. Read their propaganda - between the lines it tells you what they fear.
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Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 03:11:00 PM »
truth-seeker - as always, thanks for a spot on analysis!  :beer:
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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2013, 09:16:28 PM »

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2013, 09:30:55 PM »
EC wrote:
[[ But the CCTV thing - with traffic cameras and intelligent swipe cards - is a huge part of it. We really don't expect a lot of privacy in the street. ]]

Speak for yourself.

Maybe YOU don't "expect privacy" on the street, but here in America, things are different. Didn't we fight a war over similar issues, long ago?

We have something called the Fourth Amendment that enumerates the right of citizens "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures".

Think of it as a "halo" -- a God-given right which surrounds and protects the individual. It does not disappear when one chooses to walk out of his own home. It continues to encircle him, and remains as important as the citizen moves around as it is when he is sitting in his chair at home.

Unfortunately, over time the Congress, Courts and Executive seem to be ignoring the Fourth Amendment, enacting laws and decrees that endeavour to circumvent it. The Founders had no way of knowing in their time, how advances in technology could translate into governmental power -- power that could be abused, as is happening today.

That's why I have been advocating a new Constitutional amendment to reinforce and reinvigorate the protections of the Fourth Amendment by enumerating a Constitutionally-guaranteed "right of privacy".

It doesn't have to be overly wordy or complicated. Just four short paragraphs:
=====
Citizens protected by this Constitution possess an inalienable right to privacy in their persons, business, and homes, and while they are in public.

It shall be a violation of this Constitution for the United States or for the several States to violate or invade the individual privacy of citizens by use of physical, mechanical, or electronic means or by the use of devices on land, on water, below the ground, or from the air.

This protection shall extend to all lawful communications and acts by an individual citizen or between two or more citizens, including content that is spoken, written, or electronically transmitted. It shall extend to citizens regardless of their location, whether in private or in public.

The only exceptions will be as governed by the Fourth Amendment of this Constitution.
=====

Simple and easy to understand.

I believe this could give citizens leverage to fight back against outfits like the NSA and FISA Courts that operate in secret and increasingly without any restraints at all.

We've got to start somewhere.

A "privacy amendment" would be that first step.

Offline EC

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Re: U.S. has alienated all of Europe: the "handyuberwachung" disaster
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2013, 09:36:28 PM »
The amendment is a good idea, well formulated and not open to misinterpretation.

Of course, the other 7 billion people on the planet are fair game under that amendment. As one of those 7 billion, I am not hugely fond of that idea.
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