Author Topic: Pastor Marvin Winans Won't Bless Child Born Out Of Wedlock At Church: Report  (Read 2702 times)

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Offline EC

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This just irritated me badly.

Via HuffPo: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/17/marvin-winans-unwed-mothers-child-born-out-of-wedlock-bless-_n_4116915.html

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The Perfecting Church, home to famed gospel singer and pastor Marvin Winans, is having a special dedication ceremony for the congregation's youngest members on Sunday.

Charity Grace, a Detroiter who recently started attending services at the church on East Nevada Street, wanted her only son, two-year-old Joshua Grace, to share in the blessings.

"I want to instill values and morals in my son based upon the word of God," she told Fox 2 Detroit.

But when she called Perfecting Church on Tuesday to sign up Joshua for the ceremony, Charity said she was told by a woman elected in the church that Pastor Winans has a strict policy -- he won't bless the babies of unwed mothers in front of the congregation, Fox 2 Detroit reported.

According to a New York Times report, 36 percent of mothers who reported giving birth in 2011 weren't married.

Grace said she felt degraded by the pastor's decision. She's hoping he reconsiders, even if it means having her son dedicated during the week by a church elder.

Until then, she told Fox 2 Detroit she has no plans to return to Perfecting Church.

"I absolutely would not set foot back in the church right now because I feel like they look down upon me and my kind, meaning single moms and unwed mothers," Grace said.

Pope Francis recently said in May that the Catholic Church should bless children born out of wedlock, because their mothers chose life over abortion.

“'Look at this girl who had had the courage to carry her pregnancy to term. ... "What does she find? A closed door," he said, according to Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano. "This is not good pastoral zeal, it distances people from the Lord and does not open doors."

Dr. Jacqui Lewis is the Senior Minister of Middle Collegiate Church in Manhattan's East Village. She told The Huffington Post she was surprised that a child "of any kind" would be denied a blessing from a church, and referenced the Gospel of Mark, 10:10-16:


His Holiness is correct. Children are the innocents.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Interesting. Pastor Winans does not reject a blessing, but not in public. It would seem, then, that the whole ceremony of blessing is nothing more than a show, the kind of public theatrics Jesus warned his followers not to perform (Matthew 7, I believe)-- in other words, worthless.

Miss Grace would be well advised to find another church.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Interesting. Pastor Winans does not reject a blessing, but not in public. It would seem, then, that the whole ceremony of blessing is nothing more than a show, the kind of public theatrics Jesus warned his followers not to perform (Matthew 7, I believe)-- in other words, worthless.

Miss Grace would be well advised to find another church.

Actually, I think it shows exactly the opposite.  If Miss Grace was really just interested in the blessing, she would accept the private blessing.  She is the one who wants public approval for her choices.  The pastor is simply trying to avoid the appearance of giving his approval to her immorality.

Ephesians 5:3 - "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people."

Obviously, Miss Grace has more than a 'hint' of immorality about her...


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Offline EC

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Dan - I'll not judge her.

For all we know she got conned by some guy with well broken in running shoes. You know that happens, way too often.

She wants her child to be welcomed into the faith, and to me "Suffer the little children to come to me" is a hell of a lot more important than picking out the splinter in my neighbor's eye.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Dan - I'll not judge her.

For all we know she got conned by some guy with well broken in running shoes. You know that happens, way too often.

She wants her child to be welcomed into the faith, and to me "Suffer the little children to come to me" is a hell of a lot more important than picking out the splinter in my neighbor's eye.

But you are more than willing to judge the Pastor who is much closer to the issue than you are?

The Pastor likely has many young girls in his congregation who don't need to see what amounts to public acceptance of her immorality.  Sometimes you just have to accept responsibility for your behavior.  The boy is 2 years old and will not remember any of it.  This is all about the mother.

Not getting public affirmation for the results of your behavior is a long way from 'rejecting her child from the faith'.

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Offline EC

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Yes. I hold a pastor to a much higher standard than us sinners.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Yes. I hold a pastor to a much higher standard than us sinners.

Pastors aren't non-sinners and that wasn't the point.

The point was that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an unwed mother but not to the pastor who is much closer to the situation than you are.  Do you hold him to a higher standard simply so that you can judge him without feeling guilty?


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"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline jmyrlefuller

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The two need not be mutually exclusive. After all, the first thing this woman did was run to the media. The quote does illustrate that she is more concerned that the church is looking down on her, not her child.
"Just because people in positions of authority are stupid, it doesn’t mean you have to go along with it." —Arlo Guthrie

"In the excitement of great popular elections, deciding the policy of the country, and its vast patronage, frauds will be committed, if a chance is given for them." —Richard Henry Dana, Jr.

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Offline EC

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Pastors aren't non-sinners and that wasn't the point.

The point was that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to an unwed mother but not to the pastor who is much closer to the situation than you are.  Do you hold him to a higher standard simply so that you can judge him without feeling guilty?

Nope. I hold him to a higher standard because of his position as spiritual guide to his congregation, much as I hold judges to a higher standard regarding illegal or immoral behavior than I do the average person in the street, or kindergarten teachers to a high standard of child care than a 16 year old baby sitter.

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Offline Oceander

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Nope. I hold him to a higher standard because of his position as spiritual guide to his congregation, much as I hold judges to a higher standard regarding illegal or immoral behavior than I do the average person in the street, or kindergarten teachers to a high standard of child care than a 16 year old baby sitter.



Exactly.  He took on the higher standard for himself when he became a pastor and started ministering to his people.

Offline EC

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Exactly.  He took on the higher standard for himself when he became a pastor and started ministering to his people.

THANK YOU!!!!!!  :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :beer: :beer: :beer:

I was fumbling for this. Dude wasn't born a pastor. He chose to become one.

Not hassling that - I have know a lot of good pastors, nuns, Fathers and preachers. Folk who accepted the call and dealt with it with grace.

But if you take on the job of spiritual guidance you are damned right I am going to hold you to the light.

What does Jesus himself say about children? He is silent on the down sides, maybe because he was smart enough not to have them, but "Suffer the little children" is a pretty clear statement. No provisos, no wiggle room. It doesn't say children of a marriage. It says children. Full bleep stop.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 11:55:24 PM by EC »
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Offline Oceander

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THANK YOU!!!!!!  :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :beer: :beer: :beer:

I was fumbling for this. Dude wasn't born a pastor. He chose to become one.

Not hassling that - I have know a lot of good pastors, nuns, Fathers and preachers. Folk who accepted the call and dealt with it with grace.

But if you take on the job of spiritual guidance you are damned right I am going to hold you to the light.

What does Jesus himself say about children? He is silent on the down sides, maybe because he was smart enough not to have them, but "Suffer the little children" is a pretty clear statement. No provisos, no wiggle room. It doesn't say children of a marriage. It says children. Full bleeping stop.

Having a child myself, I must object to being "smart enough" to not have them; one finds one's self in a world of simple wisdom when one has a child.  As for Jesus, the whole of the world were His children - He had more than most of us can count.

Offline GourmetDan

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The two need not be mutually exclusive. After all, the first thing this woman did was run to the media. The quote does illustrate that she is more concerned that the church is looking down on her, not her child.

It's always about the children, doncha know...


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Offline GourmetDan

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But if you take on the job of spiritual guidance you are damned right I am going to hold you to the light.

What does Jesus himself say about children? He is silent on the down sides, maybe because he was smart enough not to have them, but "Suffer the little children" is a pretty clear statement. No provisos, no wiggle room. It doesn't say children of a marriage. It says children. Full bleeping stop.

Let's see, choosing to be a pastor vs choosing to spread your legs.

Hmmm... race to the bottom anyone?


« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 09:45:53 AM by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline EC

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Having a child myself, I must object to being "smart enough" to not have them; one finds one's self in a world of simple wisdom when one has a child.  As for Jesus, the whole of the world were His children - He had more than most of us can count.

It is a joy - when they leave home.  :whistle:

And yes - I would do it again, given the chance. All of them turned out good, sensible and hardworking - blame their mother for that. All bar one have degrees, do jobs they love (One has a sheep farm in New Zealand with her husband - she always was an odd child) have varying numbers of kids and have NEVER failed to make me proud of them.

The one? Come on, it's her first birthday soon. Let her learn to walk first.
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Offline NavyCanDo

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What a tragic story. It's churches like that that turn people off from going to church.   Churches should be "a Hospital" for the broken, the hurt, the needy, the hopeless - not a place that pushes them away. That is not what Jesus taught.  My church reaches out to people like this young lady each year by providing a free oil change to Single Moms in the church and the community. Not only free oil changes but often bald tires are replace, and some minor engine repairs are done.   And while they wait the kids are being entertained, and the Moms are pampered.  This year we had 180 Single Mom's.   

The trappings that some churches put on themselves are destructive. You will be welcomed here but you must [         ] first.


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Offline sinkspur

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What a tragic story. It's churches like that that turn people off from going to church.   Churches should be "a Hospital" for the broken, the hurt, the needy, the hopeless - not a place that pushes them away. That is not what Jesus taught.  My church reaches out to people like this young lady each year by providing a free oil change to Single Moms in the church and the community. Not only free oil changes but often bald tires are replace, and some minor engine repairs are done.   And while they wait the kids are being entertained, and the Moms are pampered.  This year we had 180 Single Mom's.   

The trappings that some churches put on themselves are destructive. You will be welcomed here but you must [         ] first.

The Gospel Transforms Us. Religion Entraps Us!

Pope Francis called a young woman in Rome whose child was refused baptism because she was not married.  He offered to baptize the child himself.

You express the proper attitude perfectly:  If the Church is not a hospital for sinners, what is it? 
From  "A Shining City on a Hill"

To "A global laughingstock"

Offline EC

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Pope Francis called a young woman in Rome whose child was refused baptism because she was not married.  He offered to baptize the child himself.

You express the proper attitude perfectly:  If the Church is not a hospital for sinners, what is it?

It is many things.

Home. A refuge. A community. A place to make a stand. A bar (think Cheers).  :laugh:

No child should ever be barred from grace. I am proud of His Holiness for making a proper stand.
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Offline GourmetDan

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No child should ever be barred from grace. I am proud of His Holiness for making a proper stand.

No child was ever barred from grace.  Just no public affirmation of a mother's sinful lifestyle.

It's so hard to remember that when condemning the pastor is the goal...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline EC

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No child was ever barred from grace.  Just no public affirmation of a mother's sinful lifestyle.

It's so hard to remember that when condemning the pastor is the goal...

Come on, mate. Now who is judging?

How do you know she is sinful? OK, apart from the fact she is human and therefore a sinner by definition.

I would point out to you - she kept the child. Went to term instead of went to an abortion clinic. There is no one who thinks being a single parent is easy, yet she chose to keep the life entrusted to her care. It isn't a lot to ask that her church rallies around - is it?
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Offline GourmetDan

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Come on, mate. Now who is judging?

How do you know she is sinful? OK, apart from the fact she is human and therefore a sinner by definition.

I would point out to you - she kept the child. Went to term instead of went to an abortion clinic. There is no one who thinks being a single parent is easy, yet she chose to keep the life entrusted to her care. It isn't a lot to ask that her church rallies around - is it?

Not only have you been judging, 'mate'; but you have been misrepresenting the pastor's actions from day one.  How do you know she isn't sinful, by any definition, eh?

I already explained to you that the pastor has more souls to shepherd than just her and he cannot appear to validate her lifestyle.  As before, you ignore that responsibility and keep right on misrepresenting the facts.

Now you want to shift away from the misrepresentation that the child was 'barred from grace' when that wasn't the case?


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"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline EC

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Yes - I have been judging from day one of posting this story. I shall continue to do so.

He is her pastor. The one person she should be able to trust to aid her and guide her and advise her. He publicly told her to (effectively) F off, she and her child aren't good enough for his flock because she is a single mother.

I hold pastors to high standards, irrespective of denomination or indeed religion. It is a hard job. Usually thankless. But no one made him do it, he was called to do it. I expect him to show the same grace and mercy as our Lord would.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Yes - I have been judging from day one of posting this story. I shall continue to do so.

He is her pastor. The one person she should be able to trust to aid her and guide her and advise her. He publicly told her to (effectively) F off, she and her child aren't good enough for his flock because she is a single mother.

Again, he has others that he must think of and he cannot afford to give the appearance of condoning her behavior.  He didn't publicly tell her to F off.  She is the one who made it a public issue, not him.

Quote
I hold pastors to high standards, irrespective of denomination or indeed religion. It is a hard job. Usually thankless. But no one made him do it, he was called to do it. I expect him to show the same grace and mercy as our Lord would.

He did show grace, he didn't tell her to F off and he didn't 'bar the child from grace' as you claim.



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline NavyCanDo

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"he won't bless the babies of unwed mothers in front of the congregation"

If he won't bless the baby of an unwed mother, what about when the baby is now 5, or 10, or 15, or  17, or 25. He would still be the child of an unwed mother, right?   So is this human being , which is a child of God banned for life from being blessed in front of others?   Damn right I criticize the Pastor’s decision. 
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Offline GourmetDan

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"he won't bless the babies of unwed mothers in front of the congregation"

If he won't bless the baby of an unwed mother, what about when the baby is now 5, or 10, or 15, or  17, or 25. He would still be the child of an unwed mother, right?   So is this human being , which is a child of God banned for life from being blessed in front of others?   Damn right I criticize the Pastor’s decision.

Again, the pastor has the responsibility not to give the appearance of condoning the mother's lifestyle because he is responsible for other people.

Your imaginary scenarios notwithstanding...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan


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