Author Topic: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?  (Read 1576 times)

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Liberal_Spy

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How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« on: October 12, 2013, 05:14:07 PM »
Do you support what he did? How do you think we should handle what we have learned about the NSA? Do you believe Edward Snowden should be pardoned as a whistle blower?

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2013, 05:23:51 PM »
Do you support what he did? How do you think we should handle what we have learned about the NSA? Do you believe Edward Snowden should be pardoned as a whistle blower?

I actually have mixed feelings about him, but I am actually glad he outed what they are doing.  I don't support government spying on it's people and collecting all our keystrokes, phone calls and who knows what else. 
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Liberal_Spy

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2013, 05:30:18 PM »
and who knows what else.


Thanks to Snowden, we now know the NSA:

Had James Clapper lie under oath to us - on camera - to Congress to hide the domestic spying programs Occured in March, revealed in June.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/350699/clappers-lie-charles-c-w-cooke

-Warrantlessly accesses records of every phone call that routes through the US thousands of times a day

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-records-verizon-court-order

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/nsa-broke-rules-call-tracking-96571.html

-Steals your private data from every major web company (Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft, et al) via PRISM and pays them millions for it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/23/nsa-prism-costs-tech-companies-paid

-Pays major US telecommunications providers (AT&T, Verizon, et al) between $278,000,000-$394,000,000 annually to provide secret access to all US fiber and cellular networks (in violation of the 4th amendment).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-paying-us-companies-for-access-to-communications-networks/2013/08/29/5641a4b6-10c2-11e3-bdf6-e4fc677d94a1_story.html

-Intentionally weakened the encryption standards we rely on, put backdoors into critical software, and break the crypto on our private communications.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/us/nsa-foils-much-internet-encryption.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&

-NSA employees use these powers to spy on their US citizen lovers via LOVEINT, and only get caught if they self-confess. Though this is a felony, none were ever been charged with a crime.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/

-Lied to us again, claiming they never perform economic espionage (whoops!) before a new leak revealed that they do all the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras

-Made over fifteen thousand false certifications to the secret FISA court, leading a judge to rule they "frequently and systemically violated" court orders in a manner "directly contrary to the sworn attestations of several executive branch officials," that 90% of their searches were unlawful, and that they "repeatedly misled the court."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/10/nsa-violated-court-rules-data-documents

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/09/10/five-revelations-from-new-nsa-documents/?mod=e2tw


And they spend $75,000,000,000.00 of your tax money each year to do this to you.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2013, 05:32:07 PM »
1. There is no need to pardon because he hasn't been convicted of anything.
2. As a private contractor, he is protected under the Whistleblower Protection Act. That act does not exclude whistleblowing on federal agencies.
3. He probably could have done it a better way, such as going to a liberty oriented Congressman.
4. Much of what he said isn't news. Programs like Echelon have been known for decades. It is just a matter of exposing to the public how extensive it is.  Its big impact, which is a positive thing, is making people aware of how important privacy issues are.
5. Some like to compare Snowden and Manning. They are very different circumstances. Manning was a uniformed soldier who 'leaked' actionable intelligence. That isn't whistleblowing. There is a certain chain of command and process for addressing what you feel is illegalities or problems in the military. He directly violated his oath and in any other time, he would probably be hung for treason. Snowden was a private citizen contractor and what he 'leaked' was not actionable intelligence.
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Offline Rapunzel

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 05:33:25 PM »
Hmmm actually here on TBR we knew Clapper lied WHEN HE LIED.  This is what I mean about looking beneath the surface on issues...  A lot of what Snowden revealed was not a huge shock to us here... more like confirmation of what we had already been discussing.
“The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.” G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 05:41:49 PM »
Hmmm actually here on TBR we knew Clapper lied WHEN HE LIED.  This is what I mean about looking beneath the surface on issues...  A lot of what Snowden revealed was not a huge shock to us here... more like confirmation of what we had already been discussing.

If there every was a case made out of this, it will be hard pressed to say he released anything that wasn't already in the public domain somehow. There were actually German spies in the US who were pardoned after the war because they were able to prove that the info they took was in the public domain.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 05:44:19 PM »
Hmmm actually here on TBR we knew Clapper lied WHEN HE LIED.  This is what I mean about looking beneath the surface on issues...  A lot of what Snowden revealed was not a huge shock to us here... more like confirmation of what we had already been discussing.

Very true.  It was shocking to some on the left because their "messiah" got elected based on his anti-Patriot Act and anti-Guantanamo rhetoric.  Still, we hardly hear a peep of protest from the left about NSA spying, drones, Benghazi and the various Mideast military adventures.  Democrats simply do not criticize Democrat wars and abuses.  It's like joining the mafia.  Once you are in, you are "made" and you have a license to do whatever you like with impunity.

I wonder what the discourse from the left would be like if a Republican president governed with the identical policies OPapaDoc has been pursuing?  Never mind.  We already know the answer to that.

"She only coughs when she lies."

Liberal_Spy

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 05:47:58 PM »
Still, we hardly hear a peep of protest from the left about NSA spying, drones, Benghazi and the various Mideast military adventures.  Democrats simply do not criticize Democrat wars and abuses. 

Reddit (the place I get a lot of my news) is predominately left wing thinkers, and pretty much all of them were outraged at Obama and the US government as a whole over everything related to the NSA leaks. There is a good reason Obama's approval has dropped so much. Most of that dropping is among the left wing.

Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 05:50:35 PM »
If there every was a case made out of this, it will be hard pressed to say he released anything that wasn't already in the public domain somehow. There were actually German spies in the US who were pardoned after the war because they were able to prove that the info they took was in the public domain.

I teach a course in e-commerce and the text I use mentions that about 95 percent of US Internet communications are sifted by the federal government for terrorist security.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the government must have a data archive on citizen communication that could be culled for information whenever desired.  So, yes, Snowden just confirmed what everyone had already suspected.

Maybe some of those on the left were shocked that their precious OPapaDoc would be complicit in such a thing.  But they have been completely blind to the fraud from day one.   
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2013, 05:57:04 PM »
Reddit (the place I get a lot of my news) is predominately left wing thinkers, and pretty much all of them were outraged at Obama and the US government as a whole over everything related to the NSA leaks. There is a good reason Obama's approval has dropped so much. Most of that dropping is among the left wing.

Uh-huh.  Funny they aren't "occupying" anything or taking part in any civil disobedience, which they certainly would be doing if a GOP president were pursuing the same policies. 
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2013, 05:57:12 PM »
Reddit (the place I get a lot of my news) is predominately left wing thinkers, and pretty much all of them were outraged at Obama and the US government as a whole over everything related to the NSA leaks. There is a good reason Obama's approval has dropped so much. Most of that dropping is among the left wing.

I've found Reddit is more dominated with 'Libertarian Left' (no that isn't an oxymoron). If you poll them issue by issue (and I've played this game many times on there), on most financial issues they are Conservative, on liberty, security, and crime issues they are Libertarian, and social they are liberal or libertarian. They will associate with liberals or Democrats because they are 'supposed to' not because they agree with them issue by issue, but because of what pop-culture has defined politics to be. They want to be with the cool side.  They falsely believe the Right (especially the Tea Party or Conservatives) are 'racist, bigot, homophobe, sexist, authoritarian nannies' because that is what the meme is.  They can't accept that at it's core, Tea Party Conservatives are exactly the opposite of all of that. The problem is anyone who doesn't want a government solution to XX or YY issue as a group they are automatically labeled as opposing that group when in reality, they are opposing government interventionism.
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Liberal_Spy

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2013, 05:57:58 PM »
Uh-huh.  Funny they aren't "occupying" anything or taking part in any civil disobedience, which they certainly would be doing if a GOP president were pursuing the same policies.

I've been screaming at the left wing for months to start doing stuff like this. I don't know why it isn't happening, but I wish it would.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2013, 05:58:24 PM »
I should probably correct the last post that when I say libertarian, I mean small 'l' libertarian as in the philosophy, not big "L" Libertarian as in the political party.
Never delude yourself into thinking you're "influencing" or making a difference on the internet. It is an ephemeral pleasure.

Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2013, 06:01:01 PM »
I've been screaming at the left wing for months to start doing stuff like this. I don't know why it isn't happening, but I wish it would.

My goodness, you are naive, aren't you?
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Liberal_Spy

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2013, 06:03:36 PM »
I should probably correct the last post that when I say libertarian, I mean small 'l' libertarian as in the philosophy, not big "L" Libertarian as in the political party.

Ron Paul is kind of a poster boy for libertarians, and Reddit tore him apart on his AMA.

Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 06:05:39 PM »
I should probably correct the last post that when I say libertarian, I mean small 'l' libertarian as in the philosophy, not big "L" Libertarian as in the political party.

Being a libertarian myself, I agree with your previous post.  Unfortunately, most left-wing libertarians are more concerned with legalizing marijuana than legalizing free enterprise.  Most are not particularly uncomfortable with economic regulation because it doesn't affect them much.  They fail to see that individual rights are not really possible without property rights.

And as for the second amendment? Fuhgeddaboudit.  Not at all important to them. 
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 06:07:45 PM »
Uh-huh.  Funny they aren't "occupying" anything or taking part in any civil disobedience, which they certainly would be doing if a GOP president were pursuing the same policies.

We are talking about liberals, their entire existence is apathy- waiting for the government to do something they should be doing themselves.

Kind of like my observation about the 'greenest' liberal city in the country, San Francisco, I've found to be one of the dirtiest cities in regards to trash on the streets and in alleys. All of those libs are waiting on the government to do something about it instead of just picking up the trash themselves.

They are probably waiting for the government to fix the government's problem through more government regulation.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 06:12:26 PM by AbaraXas »
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 06:11:41 PM »
Being a libertarian myself, I agree with your previous post.  Unfortunately, most left-wing libertarians are more concerned with legalizing marijuana than legalizing free enterprise.  Most are not particularly uncomfortable with economic regulation because it doesn't affect them much.  They fail to see that individual rights are not really possible without property rights.

And as for the second amendment? Fuhgeddaboudit.  Not at all important to them.

One reason I never can associate with the Libertarian Party is they are so hung up on the drug issue, they are shooting themselves in the foot. It seems to be the be-all, end-all issue to define them (no matter how much they claim it isn't). I used to love Reason Magazine but between their Ron Paul slobbering and constant Pot articles, it grew tiresome. I wish they would get back to promoting free-enterprise.
Never delude yourself into thinking you're "influencing" or making a difference on the internet. It is an ephemeral pleasure.

Offline massadvj

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Re: How do you feel about Edward Snowden and the NSA leaks?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 06:19:39 PM »
One reason I never can associate with the Libertarian Party is they are so hung up on the drug issue, they are shooting themselves in the foot. It seems to be the be-all, end-all issue to define them (no matter how much they claim it isn't). I used to love Reason Magazine but between their Ron Paul slobbering and constant Pot articles, it grew tiresome. I wish they would get back to promoting free-enterprise.

I still look at Reason, and of course I like the Cato Foundation a lot more than the Heritage Foundation.

Personally, I am not uncomfortable aligning myself with fundamentalist Christians, rednecks and other conservatives.  Freedom requires that citizens be hard-working, honest and responsible.  Conservatives tend to be the best citizens in any community. 

When I look at the left wingers, libertarian and otherwise, mostly I see clueless deadbeats.
"She only coughs when she lies."


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