Flesh eating drug ("krokodil") makes appearance in Joliet, Ill.

[Liberal_Spy]

Legalizing drugs will make their use even more wide spread and acceptable.

Do we really want younger and younger kids, and more and more people on hard drugs?

You're right.

NOT a viable solution.

Alcohol is usually way harder for kids to get than pot and even harder drugs. The reason that is true is because alcohol is legal and sold at stores where they enforce ID checking. Drug dealers don't care how old the people they sell to are. If pot was legalized and regulated like alcohol is it would lead to less kids using it.

[EC]

It's impossible to overdose on pot. There is not a single recorded death that was solely caused my marijuana use. It has been proven that it doesn't actually cause cancer, and it has also been proven that it does not actually cause any kind of brain damage. They can even make breathalyzers to test for it. Alcohol and tobacco use are among the leading causes of death in the United States. It's not even close, not by a long shot. As far as pot in particular goes, it is not even remotely close to as bad as tobacco or alcohol.

That is because you are comparing apples to cheese. Tobacco and alcohol are widely and readily available at all times, provided you're of age or have a convincing enough fake ID. Pot is less so in most of the country, so you simply don't have the same baseline of users to make an accurate comparison.

As far as brain damage goes, there are studies which state pot does not cause brain damage, true. There are also studies which claim that excessive use causes serious loss of cognitive abilities and may trigger various psychological diseases. It depends who you ask, really. It is, admittedly, a rather good treatment for depression, migraines and chronic pain.

[Liberal_Spy]

That is because you are comparing apples to cheese. Tobacco and alcohol are widely and readily available at all times, provided you're of age or have a convincing enough fake ID. Pot is less so in most of the country, so you simply don't have the same baseline of users to make an accurate comparison.

As far as brain damage goes, there are studies which state pot does not cause brain damage, true. There are also studies which claim that excessive use causes serious loss of cognitive abilities and may trigger various psychological diseases. It depends who you ask, really. It is, admittedly, a rather good treatment for depression, migraines and chronic pain.

Weed being legal won't change the fact that it is impossible to overdose on marijuana. Lots and lots of people smoke marijuana constantly, all the time, all over the world. Regardless of the fact that it is illegal, marijuana smokers are everywhere. There are huge amounts of people to draw this data from. At no point in time has there ever been a recorded death that resulted from marijuana use. It is proven that tobacco and alcohol products cause cancer and lead to a shorter lifespan. It has been proven that marijuana does not cause cancer, and there is absolutely no evidence out there that suggests it leads to a shorter lifespan.

[truth_seeker]

And legalizing alcohol and tobacco has accomplished what besides feeding the government coffers?  Don't both of those rank pretty high on the cause of death lists in the US?

 

Fedgov saves money on early deaths, versus elder care for people into their 70s, and 80s.

[Liberal_Spy]

As if we don't already have it on every corner and alcove already?

Exactly. I think people underestimate just how many people smoke weed, and just how much of it gets sold everywhere all the time.

[Rapunzel]

Exactly. I think people underestimate just how many people smoke weed, and just how much of it gets sold everywhere all the time.

I have no issues with legalizing pot.  The rest if the drugs I do have problems with... including many prescription drugs like Vicodin, Oxycodone, codeine 3, etc.  A substance in pot helps glaucoma, nausea from chemo, etc... while the prescription drugs are much more addictive and damaging.  I would also rather someone smoke pot than take Meth...One if the most diabolical addictions there is.

[Cincinnatus]

Legalizing drugs will make their use even more wide spread and acceptable.

Do we really want younger and younger kids, and more and more people on hard drugs?

ML, you know that I respect you greatly but the problem with your position is with what you will allow. Alcohol is a drug and cigarettes contain drugs that will kill you or ruin your health long term. Both have far more negative impact on society than all hard drugs combined. So to be consistent with those statements above you must be in favor of banning both of those substances also.

Are you?

[Liberal_Spy]

I have no issues with legalizing pot.  The rest if the drugs I do have problems with... including many prescription drugs like Vicodin, Oxycodone, codeine 3, etc.  A substance in pot helps glaucoma, nausea from chemo, etc... while the prescription drugs are much more addictive and damaging.  I would also rather someone smoke pot than take Meth...One if the most diabolical addictions there is.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/07/05/ten-years-after-decriminalization-drug-abuse-down-by-half-in-portugal/

Check this out.

[truth_seeker]

People drink alcohol, smoke tobacco and use various drugs, because they enjoy the effects in the beginning.

Some people become addicted, abuse, cause havock in their neighborhoods and homes.

Most don't. Most people have a couple of cocktails or beers after work. They don't go home, beat the kids and the wife. Some do.

Same for pot.

Prohibition failed to solve the age-old problems with alcohol, so it was reversed.

Unfortunately America seems incapable of maintaining institutional memory.

We can't remember how we once won wars, and we can't remember the disaster of prohibition.

So called "conservatives" fall for big government, all controlling, reduction of personal freedom with swelled roles of cops and prison guards, prosecutors, etc.

Think of all those plush government retirement pensions around age 55, which drain and bust the budgets.

After nearly 20 years of AA meetings (and remaining continuously sober), I've heard a lot of stories, good bad and in between. Fear of jail does little to stop an addict or alcoholic from using again.



 

[EC]

After nearly 20 years of AA meetings (and remaining continuously sober), I've heard a lot of stories, good bad and in between. Fear of jail does little to stop an addict or alcoholic from using again.

Side note - Congratulations! Four years for me next month.

[Liberal_Spy]

Fear of jail does little to stop an addict or alcoholic from using again.

Some of them even prefer jail. Free healthcare, three meals a day, TV and a bed to sleep in is a lot more appealing than being a homeless drug addict.

[Cincinnatus]

Congratulations and best wishes to both Truth_Seeker and EC.

[EC]

Some of them even prefer jail. Free healthcare, three meals a day, TV and a bed to sleep in is a lot more appealing than being a homeless drug addict.

They are not hugely fond of drying out in jail.

[truth_seeker]

Some of them even prefer jail. Free healthcare, three meals a day, TV and a bed to sleep in is a lot more appealing than being a homeless drug addict.

From my experience, and borrowing wisdom of others, a practicing addict or alcoholic is partly mentally ill. Some say insane.

A man once said "you can't fix a broken brain with a broken brain."

AA's 2nd step includes this:  "...restore us to sanity."  Elsewhere in AA literature reference is made to "...a moment of clarity."

All of that follows the belief it goes beyond "willpower" and "healthy decisions" etc. The people that do NOT become addicts and alcoholics have those powers intact.

The addict and alcoholic needs help from a higher power, of their own understanding. Many call that power God.

A happy sober life awaits, in place of dependency on substances--for those willing to take the risk of trying.

Back to krokodil--the damage is visible on the outside. Same for rotted teeth and scabs from meth. For other substances, the damage may be invisible, even spiritual in nature.

What about the elderly addicted to pain killers? Trapped, powerless. I have recently gained empathy for them, taking them because they are addicted long beyond the underlying pain issue.

These people look normal, not tatted up addicts, or smelly alcoholics falling down. Maybe your Mom or grandmother.

Gonna lock them up?

[Liberal_Spy]

What about the elderly addicted to pain killers? Trapped, powerless. I have recently gained empathy for them, taking them because they are addicted long beyond the underlying pain issue.

I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.

[Rapunzel]

I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.

I actually agree with you and I work for a doctor.  I never cease to be appalled at the drugs the elderly are taking..  and this all started with the pharmaceuticals around the start of the 1900's with Rockefeller and Carnagie.  Actually a very interesting history there.  I personally hate prescription drugs and think a healthy diet and exercise would go a long way to alleviate the need for most prescriptions.

[truth_seeker]

I find this countries dependance on pharmaceutical drugs extremely disturbing. The solution to everything now seems to be lots of pain killers and lots of anti-depression medication. These drugs can be and are very addictive, and people are being given crazy amounts of them, and are being encouraged to take lots of them all the time. I personally think this dependance is caused by the pharmaceutical companies pushing doctors to prescribe their drugs to patients.

Knowledge and information should be dispensed by the doctor prescribing the drugs.

With nearly 20 years sober, I recently had to use narcotic pain meds, due to a serious injury and subsequent surgery.

At 4 weeks of use, I kicked cold turkey. At least in part, I could see the need to do it and the tools, because of my AA time.

I had to initiate an honest, open dialogue with my physician and his PA. It worked, I used some AA tools, including prayer, counting days, etc.

Many people won't know what to do, and their physician's easiest path is to renew the script, rather than face a difficult situation.

This is an emerging field where the USA is a leader. Addiction is a very complex field. Those who think it is about "sin" and "willpower" are sadly deluded. 

[alicewonders]

Okay, I couldn't stay away.

Exactly! You and the vast majority of people will pass on using any drug whether prohibited or not.

So, let's remove prohibition, institute treatment in it's place and empty overcrowded jails of nonviolent drug "criminals."

Savings and benefits to society will easily outstrip the current cost of funding an interdictive police state with it's infringements on liberty and other unintended consequences of prohibition—like flesh eating drugs.

This is how we stop these outbreaks of self abuse. Stop "hardening" non violent drug users by helping them make a better life rather than by making criminals of them. Drug abuse should be seen in the same light as other personality disorders. You wouldn't make it a crime to be obsessive-compulsive? Would you?

Completely agree AC.  Most of these druggies need help - they don't need to be locked up with hardened violent criminals where they learn Crime 101 while they're there.  Most burglaries and thefts are to pay for drugs.  This hits us all.  What we are doing now - Is. Not. Working. 

[musiclady]

Legalizing drugs will make their use even more wide spread and acceptable.

Do we really want younger and younger kids, and more and more people on hard drugs?

ML, you know that I respect you greatly but the problem with your position is with what you will allow. Alcohol is a drug and cigarettes contain drugs that will kill you or ruin your health long term. Both have far more negative impact on society than all hard drugs combined. So to be consistent with those statements above you must be in favor of banning both of those substances also.

Are you?

I believe I'm consistent, Cincinnatus.

Tobacco has always been legal in America.  Alcohol has been, all but for a short time when what was legal suddenly became illegal.

Hard drugs have always been illegal because they are so harmful (the greater negative impact of alcohol and tobacco is due to greater use because they are legal).   If we now legalize harmful drugs, their use will increase, and they will most likely create an even greater negative impact than alcohol and tobacco.

They're already having problems in Colorado with DUI violations regarding the use of marijuana.

Legalizing harder drugs is a very bad idea on any level, IMO.

Unless one wants a greater consumption of them and greater harm to the individuals who will use them because they have become legal.

[musiclady]

Completely agree AC.  Most of these druggies need help - they don't need to be locked up with hardened violent criminals where they learn Crime 101 while they're there.  Most burglaries and thefts are to pay for drugs.  This hits us all.  What we are doing now - Is. Not. Working.

Just for the record, though I strongly disagree with legalizing hard drugs, I completely agree with lessening the punishment for using them (selling..........that's a different story).

Putting people in jail for marijuana use is absurd.  Medical care and community service seem appropriate for those addicted to more dangerous drugs.

Prison is not a good plan.

[Liberal_Spy]

Just for the record, though I strongly disagree with legalizing hard drugs, I completely agree with lessening the punishment for using them (selling..........that's a different story).

Putting people in jail for marijuana use is absurd.  Medical care and community service seem appropriate for those addicted to more dangerous drugs.

Prison is not a good plan.

We may disagree on a lot of issues, but I really like and agree with your stance here.

[truth_seeker]

Hard drugs have always been illegal because they are so harmful (the greater negative impact of alcohol and tobacco is due to greater use because they are legal).   

Just factually in error. Hemp-cannabis-marijuana was legal. Cocaine was legal. Opiates are legal, but controlled. LSD was legal.

If one compared the total societal costs (Medical, lost work, family abuses, etc)  associated with alcohol to Marijuana, it might shock folks.

There were strong justifications, for taking the Prohibition experiment. But it did not work.

[musiclady]

Just factually in error. Hemp-cannabis-marijuana was legal. Cocaine was legal. Opiates are legal, but controlled. LSD was legal.

If one compared the total societal costs (Medical, lost work, family abuses, etc)  associated with alcohol to Marijuana, it might shock folks.

There were strong justifications, for taking the Prohibition experiment. But it did not work.

I stand corrected on that  (people who are trying to get illegal drugs legalized generally spend more time researching than I do.  My knowledge only goes so far).

Total societal costs from alcohol will obviously be higher because it is a legal drug and more widely used.

That doesn't mean that other drugs, especially harder ones, should become legal.

If it's not against the law for people to use heroin, more people will use it, and there will be more young people who are not afraid to use it.

It's a very, very bad idea.

[Liberal_Spy]

If it's not against the law for people to use heroin, more people will use it, and there will be more young people who are not afraid to use it.

Real world examples have proven that this is not true.

[truth_seeker]

I stand corrected on that  (people who are trying to get illegal drugs legalized generally spend more time researching than I do.  My knowledge only goes so far).

Total societal costs from alcohol will obviously be higher because it is a legal drug and more widely used.

That doesn't mean that other drugs, especially harder ones, should become legal.

If it's not against the law for people to use heroin, more people will use it, and there will be more young people who are not afraid to use it.

It's a very, very bad idea.

There are already young people using heroin, and alcohol and tobacco.

People persisted during Prohibition to use alcohol. People have persisted during the War on Drugs, to use Drugs.

Is it the job of government to be involved with all such matters? They spend so much money, turn people into criminals, turn people towards the criminal lifestyle and community, and fail to curb use.

Many families admit if some marijuana relieved an elderly person's pain, they would be fine with that.

People use legal opiates in the form of prescription narcotic pain killers--a much abused issue. (aka heroin in pill form--Oxycontin, Vicodin, Norco, Percocet, etc.)

I could care less if some idiots cook up meth or krocodil and rot their teeth or shed their skin. When they break a law, lock them up and throw away the key. Give them bread, water and hard labor.