Author Topic: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak  (Read 3088 times)

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Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« on: October 04, 2013, 11:40:26 AM »
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/10/04/Did-They-Have-to-Shoot

Did They Have to Shoot?
by Joel B. Pollak 4 Oct 2013, 5:35 AM PDT

Becoming a parent really does change your perspective on things. And there's no way for me to look at that picture of police taking Miriam Carey's 18-month-old daughter--the same age, roughly, as my own daughter--out of her bullet-riddled Infiniti without wondering if it was really necessary to shoot an unarmed mother.

Others are asking the same question. Obviously, police would have careful after the Navy Yard shooting. And it's not clear that they did anything wrong. Still, it's not clear that Miriam Carey needed to die to end the situation. I'm not trying to make this about race, or police brutality--just asking a question that troubles me.

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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2013, 11:49:13 AM »
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/10/04/Did-They-Have-to-Shoot

Did They Have to Shoot?
by Joel B. Pollak 4 Oct 2013, 5:35 AM PDT

Becoming a parent really does change your perspective on things. And there's no way for me to look at that picture of police taking Miriam Carey's 18-month-old daughter--the same age, roughly, as my own daughter--out of her bullet-riddled Infiniti without wondering if it was really necessary to shoot an unarmed mother.

Others are asking the same question. Obviously, police would have careful after the Navy Yard shooting. And it's not clear that they did anything wrong. Still, it's not clear that Miriam Carey needed to die to end the situation. I'm not trying to make this about race, or police brutality--just asking a question that troubles me.


Crazy people do crazy things.  The problem with something like this in Washington DC is that the first thought is of terrorism.  And terror threats, even suspected terror threats, have to be neutralized as quickly as possible.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »
Honestly, after watching the videos, I would have taken the same actions as the police. They didn't have a time machine or mind reading device. what they had was an active threat in front of them and a fast decision to make before she became more of a threat to the public or other officers. All of this talk about how they 'should have shot the tires out' is Hollywood, not real life. They had no clue if she was armed or if her car was a bomb. She was given the opportunity when they blocked her in to get out of the car and stop, but she didn't. Instead she rammed them, tried to run them over, and kept going. How would that be different than, for example, a suicide bomber trying to get through?

But what if they did 'shoot her tires out' and it actually worked (which it doesn't work the way people think). They knew there was a child in the car and that could have resulted in a hostage situation with the child, with far worse results.

Considering reports have about a dozen shots being fired yet the child was unharmed shows a carefulness on the police's part.

I'm giving the police the benefit of the doubt in this sad situation.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 12:18:22 PM »
Crazy people do crazy things.  The problem with something like this in Washington DC is that the first thought is of terrorism.  And terror threats, even suspected terror threats, have to be neutralized as quickly as possible.

If she were a suicide bomber attempting to get a vehicle close to the Capitol, how would she have acted differently? Her actions were a immediate threat.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2013, 12:19:10 PM »
Considering reports have about a dozen shots being fired yet the child was unharmed shows a carefulness on the police's part.

No.

We used to have a legal-system that was required to sentence people to death.

Now, you can be justifiably executed based on the mindset of the police officer(s) alone.

There is something fundamentally wrong with that...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 12:22:43 PM »
Well-trained LE (especially deployed in DC) understand the number one threat is the White House.  Could it be an armed terrorist?  Unlikely.  The top threat would be the *car* used as a weapon.  Suicide bomber with child on board as cover?  LE does not second guess when multiple civilian lives may be at stake.  Tragic--but the way the real world operates today. 

A dazed, lost, confused individual does not drive in DC in the manner I saw on existing video. 

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 12:23:22 PM »
No.

We used to have a legal-system that was required to sentence people to death.

Now, you can be justifiably executed based on the mindset of the police officer(s) alone.

There is something fundamentally wrong with that...

She had already hit a Secret Service agent with her car.  A car used as a weapon.

There were times during the chase the Infiniti reached 80 mph.  A car traveling that speed is a deadly weapon.

She had opportunities to end the situation she created. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 12:24:21 PM »
No.

We used to have a legal-system that was required to sentence people to death.

Now, you can be justifiably executed based on the mindset of the police officer(s) alone.

There is something fundamentally wrong with that...

She sentenced herself by using her vehicle as a weapon. There is little difference in this situation and someone holding a gun firing on the public. The police have an obligation not only to their own self defense (as does every citizen in this country) but also the defense of those they are tasked to protect. In this case, her weapon happened to be a two thousand pound vehicle.

The right of self defense and to defend others doesn't stop with private citizens.

At that, if a private citizen had stopped someone using their car as a weapon in the same way, we would be cheering and using it as evidence of why the 2nd Amendment is important, not complaining they were acting as someone enacting a death sentence (which is usually the argument of the left when a private citizen shoots a perp, such as in the Zimmerman trial.)

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 12:27:47 PM »
No.

We used to have a legal-system that was required to sentence people to death.



..at that.. this is almost a word for word argument the left used against Zimmerman when defending himself from Trayvon 'grounding and pounding him'. http://www.blackballot.com/index.php/featured-writers/sid-davis/436-george-zimmerman-neighborhood-judge-jury-and-executioner

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 12:29:44 PM »
She sentenced herself by using her vehicle as a weapon. There is little difference in this situation and someone holding a gun firing on the public. The police have an obligation not only to their own self defense (as does every citizen in this country) but also the defense of those they are tasked to protect. In this case, her weapon happened to be a two thousand pound vehicle.

That's simply a rationalization.

The police have no obligation to defend or protect anyone.  Several Supreme Court decisions have clarified that.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 12:31:07 PM »
That's simply a rationalization.

The police have no obligation to defend or protect anyone.  Several Supreme Court decisions have clarified that.

Every individual has a right to defend themselves.

...and you can't have a rationalization with out being rational.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 12:32:00 PM »
That's simply a rationalization.

The police have no obligation to defend or protect anyone.  Several Supreme Court decisions have clarified that.

What does that have to do with anything?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2013, 12:32:52 PM »
..at that.. this is almost a word for word argument the left used against Zimmerman when defending himself from Trayvon 'grounding and pounding him'.

The difference is that GZ/TM was between two private citizens.  It was tried and determined to be self-defense.

This is state police-power being directed at citizens.  The admin has already declared it has the right to execute citizens without a trial via drone attack.  This is the same thing.

You are way down the slippery-slope...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 12:34:03 PM »
That's simply a rationalization.

The police have no obligation to defend or protect anyone.  Several Supreme Court decisions have clarified that.



Is this thread a joke?  Ask Barack Obama why he needs a Secret Service detail.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 12:35:13 PM »
Every individual has a right to defend themselves.

...and you can't have a rationalization with out being rational.

Except this woman didn't get that right.  The SS agent fired on her first 'and then the chase was on' according to the article I posted yesterday.

And a rationalization is not the same as being rational.  Look it up.



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 12:37:23 PM »
Except this woman didn't get that right.  The SS agent fired on her first 'and then the chase was on' according to the article I posted yesterday.

And a rationalization is not the same as being rational.  Look it up.

She is the one taking aggressive action, ramming them with her car and being a threat to the general public. She was basically Trayvon on wheels. (not a racial comment but a comment on her choice of actions).

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 12:39:58 PM »
Is this thread a joke?  Ask Barack Obama why he needs a Secret Service detail.


Warren v. District of Columbia

"Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is an oft-quoted[2] District of Columbia Court of Appeals (equivalent to a state supreme court) case that held police do not have a duty to provide police services to individuals, even if a dispatcher promises help to be on the way, except when police develop a special duty to particular individuals."

Obama was in no danger unless he was standing in the middle of the street...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 12:40:51 PM »
She is the one taking aggressive action, ramming them with her car and being a threat to the general public. She was basically Trayvon on wheels. (not a racial comment but a comment on her choice of actions).

As I posted yesterday, the headlights on her car weren't even broken.

You're drinking the Kool-Aid...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 12:45:06 PM »
Like it or not, this shows how tense and uptight the DC law enforcements  are....so close on the heels of Aaron Alexis, the Navy Yard Shooter.

The typical terrorist or individual jihadist would give pause...if they'll shoot an attractive black woman in a $40K sport coupe...WITH HER BABY IN THE SEAT!!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:45:33 PM by DCPatriot »
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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 12:47:45 PM »
As I posted yesterday, the headlights on her car weren't even broken.

You're drinking the Kool-Aid...

The front bumper was dented, the side of the car was dented, and the rear was smashed up pretty badly. The video shows her ramming the police in reverse and driving at a high rate of speed around the public (80mph +). You choose to judge her aggressiveness based on if her headlights were intact?

But I have to ask, what would you have done differently?

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 12:50:57 PM »
The typical terrorist or individual jihadist would give pause...if they'll shoot an attractive black woman in a $40K sport coupe...WITH HER BABY IN THE SEAT!!

Remember the 'training' posters that came out a few years ago of old people, pregnant women and children?

Police have been trained that everybody's a terrorist and non-compliance is to be met with deadly force.

What we saw is simply the result of that training...



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 12:55:58 PM »
The front bumper was dented, the side of the car was dented, and the rear was smashed up pretty badly. The video shows her ramming the police in reverse and driving at a high rate of speed around the public (80mph +). You choose to judge her aggressiveness based on if her headlights were intact?

If she was 'ramming' people, I would expect the headlights to be broken, yes.  She was trying to get away because the SS agent shot at her.  The 'chase' started after that.

Quote
But I have to ask, what would you have done differently?

She was stopped when she was executed, wasn't she?



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 12:58:01 PM »
Remember the 'training' posters that came out a few years ago of old people, pregnant women and children?

Police have been trained that everybody's a terrorist and non-compliance is to be met with deadly force.

What we saw is simply the result of that training...

I noticed that one of the five (5) men that had surrounded her with guns drawn was wearing white Bermuda shorts and had been carrying a lunch bucket according to witnesses' statements.

IOW....there's a clot of clandestine undercover law enforcement in the District of Columbia.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 12:59:29 PM »
 :pondering: At the very least the question is justified and deserving of some discussion.
NeverTrump wants to deny you YOUR voice, YOUR presidential choice.

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Re: Did They Have to Shoot? by Joel B. Pollak
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 01:01:50 PM »
If she was 'ramming' people, I would expect the headlights to be broken, yes.  She was trying to get away because the SS agent shot at her.  The 'chase' started after that.

She was stopped when she was executed, wasn't she?


Here is the video, they didn't shoot until after she rammed them and was accelerating towards them trying to get away. They had her surrounded and were trying to open her doors to get her out. She then backed up, ramming them and almost hitting several officers. (seconds 1-30).  That is when they upholstered their guns and shot (Second 25-27).  Most guns were even holstered or in safe position up until she threw her car in reverse and rammed them.

<a href="http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d4b_1380838413" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d4b_1380838413</a>




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