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Offline mystery-ak

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« on: October 03, 2013, 10:12:20 PM »

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Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 10:23:07 PM »
If this is true, not only will a clean debt-ceiling bill be passed, but the CR will be passed as well.

Why would Obama budge an inch?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 10:24:42 PM »
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 10:25:30 PM by jmyrlefuller »
"A deficit is what you've got when you haven't got as much as if you just had nothing. If we tried any of this, we'd end up in jail, but the government gets rid of its debts by nationalizing them. That's like the alcoholic who solved his problem by pouring the booze in all of his bottles into one big container. Himself." (Charlie Farquharson, edited for spelling)

Offline jmyrlefuller

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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 10:27:02 PM »
If this is true, not only will a clean debt-ceiling bill be passed, but the CR will be passed as well.

Why would Obama budge an inch?
To protect his party's electoral prospects in 2014... to maintain the gravitas needed to continue to influence elections after he's term-limited out of office... and to avoid a threat of impeachment should the GOP take a sizable chunk of the Senate in 2014.
"A deficit is what you've got when you haven't got as much as if you just had nothing. If we tried any of this, we'd end up in jail, but the government gets rid of its debts by nationalizing them. That's like the alcoholic who solved his problem by pouring the booze in all of his bottles into one big container. Himself." (Charlie Farquharson, edited for spelling)

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 10:30:37 PM »
To protect his party's electoral prospects in 2014... to maintain the gravitas needed to continue to influence elections after he's term-limited out of office... and to avoid a threat of impeachment should the GOP take a sizable chunk of the Senate in 2014.

If Obama wins this, he's golden.  And the idiot GOP will be deflated and humiliated.  And there was no reason for it.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Once-Ler

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 01:15:05 AM »
To protect his party's electoral prospects in 2014... to maintain the gravitas needed to continue to influence elections after he's term-limited out of office... and to avoid a threat of impeachment should the GOP take a sizable chunk of the Senate in 2014.
The full damage of Obamacare will not be felt until the delayed business mandate kicks in after the elections.  Then Obama just needs to coast to 2016 and watch the fruits of his legacy.  Something Obama truly believes will be glorious.

Do you believe that Obama thinks he is losing this battle?  I believe Obama thinks standing up against the GOP gives him gravitas.  He might even be enjoying, a little bit, the blatant closings of government property to the public.  I think he thinks the people who are inconvenienced by the shutdown will blame the GOP.

If that's true, how do we negotiate with Obama?  We offer to stop a shut-down that Obama, and it looks to me like most voters, believe makes his position stronger each day it continues.  In exchange we offer to cripple his signature legislation...he may need a sweetener on that deal.

You talk about impeachment but that threat will disappear if Obama's job approval jumps higher and higher each day the government is shut down.  Which I think is likely to happen.

I could be wrong.  I have been wrong many times, but I think we will lose this game of chicken.  I think many voters don't watch the news.  They watch their facebook page and think they get the news and their friends are telling them that the Republicans are screwing with their kids field trip and when they turn on the daily show Jon says something funny about a "continual resolution" what ever that is.

And when it becomes clear to everyone except conservatives that the GOP sucks...
 :vote:
 the government will reopen and those voters can get back to their lives.

"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Offline Oceander

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2013, 01:18:31 AM »
The full damage of Obamacare will not be felt until the delayed business mandate kicks in after the elections.  Then Obama just needs to coast to 2016 and watch the fruits of his legacy.  Something Obama truly believes will be glorious.

Do you believe that Obama thinks he is losing this battle?  I believe Obama thinks standing up against the GOP gives him gravitas.  He might even be enjoying, a little bit, the blatant closings of government property to the public.  I think he thinks the people who are inconvenienced by the shutdown will blame the GOP.

If that's true, how do we negotiate with Obama?  We offer to stop a shut-down that Obama, and it looks to me like most voters, believe makes his position stronger each day it continues.  In exchange we offer to cripple his signature legislation...he may need a sweetener on that deal.

You talk about impeachment but that threat will disappear if Obama's job approval jumps higher and higher each day the government is shut down.  Which I think is likely to happen.

I could be wrong.  I have been wrong many times, but I think we will lose this game of chicken.  I think many voters don't watch the news.  They watch their facebook page and think they get the news and their friends are telling them that the Republicans are screwing with their kids field trip and when they turn on the daily show Jon says something funny about a "continual resolution" what ever that is.

And when it becomes clear to everyone except conservatives that the GOP sucks...
 :vote:
 the government will reopen and those voters can get back to their lives.



So what's the point in being anything other than a democrat?  You sure seem to have had an awful big helping of surrender monkey in your wheaties this morning.

Online Once-Ler

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2013, 03:03:05 AM »
So what's the point in being anything other than a democrat?  You sure seem to have had an awful big helping of surrender monkey in your wheaties this morning.

We must recognize America for what it is before we can change it to what we want it to be.  Change comes incrementally or it is reversed by the voters next elections.  Obamacare can be reversed but it will take time and elections to get there.  I understand this last ditch attempt to kill Obamacare, but Obamacare is the constitutionally passed law of the land upheld by the SCOTUS.  I think the Constitution says you have to pass legislation to end prior legislation.  Right now we only control the House.  We have a systemic disadvantage in the Senate where we can only halt legislation not pass it.  And then there is the twice elected President of the United States.  I think it is time to stop fighting that war soldier. :patriot:

We could fight the battles we can win.  Where we have broad support of all the GOP and a few of the rats.  Stuff like the Contract with America that had popular support at the time.  We could stop doing things that costs us elections and we could consider ways to win more seats rather than just considering what is purely constitutional.

Or we could self righteously stand on principle against the majority of voters.  Aggravate the real sleeping giant, mobs of low information voters, and demand they get their sh*t together.

Sorry you see that as surrender.  But when I see a self destructive error, albeit extremely noble, that I fear could cost us the Senate I tend to focus on it.

Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram, scram
He kept buttin' that dam

'Cause he had high hopes
He had high hopes
He had high apple pie
In the sky hopes

"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 03:21:30 AM »
Quote
but Obamacare is the constitutionally passed law of the land upheld by the SCOTUS.

I thought you were smarter than that.  Obama has already unconstitutionally re-written most of the law after the fact to help his cronies, and John Roberts rewrote the law in his contortion to say it was constitutional...   and there is much worse to do in life than stand on principle, it means you at least have principles.

Online Once-Ler

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 04:03:47 AM »
I thought you were smarter than that.  Obama has already unconstitutionally re-written most of the law after the fact to help his cronies, and John Roberts rewrote the law in his contortion to say it was constitutional...   and there is much worse to do in life than stand on principle, it means you at least have principles.
I'm not going to argue the Constitutionality of Obamacare with you because it doesn't matter to me.  It doesn't matter to most voters.  Most voters know very little about the Constitution, but the Constitution still allows them to vote.  Power is derived from the consent of the governed.  Conservatives are always searching for the next Reagan.  Thinking if they can only find the right mix of conservatism and charisma one man can fix everything.  The problem isn't the politicians.  The problem is the people.

The politicians do what they have to in order to be re-elected.  They serve us.  They will do what a majority of voters in their district what them to do.  If a majority want the GOP to stand firm they will.  If they don't we could be looking at a last 2 years of Obama with a rat congress.

If the people want Obamacare then Obamacare is Constitutional to the voters.  I think we should give them Obamacare and give it to them hard.  Let them see it is messed up and let them demand it be changed.  Then they will elect representatives that will change it.  This happened when voter recognized that AFDC was counter productive to the families it was supposed to help.

and there's worse to do in life than to be head waitress at Denny's but that ain't sayin' much.
"Racism is evil. And those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."  -  President Donald J Trump

Does anybody really want to throw out good, educated and accomplished young people who have jobs, some serving in the military? Really!.....
...They have been in our country for many years through no fault of their own - brought in by parents at young age. Plus BIG border security
       Donald J. Trump@realDonaldTrump 5:35 AM - Sep 14, 2017

Offline olde north church

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 06:14:06 AM »
We must recognize America for what it is before we can change it to what we want it to be.  Change comes incrementally or it is reversed by the voters next elections.  Obamacare can be reversed but it will take time and elections to get there.  I understand this last ditch attempt to kill Obamacare, but Obamacare is the constitutionally passed law of the land upheld by the SCOTUS.  I think the Constitution says you have to pass legislation to end prior legislation.  Right now we only control the House.  We have a systemic disadvantage in the Senate where we can only halt legislation not pass it.  And then there is the twice elected President of the United States.  I think it is time to stop fighting that war soldier. :patriot:

We could fight the battles we can win.  Where we have broad support of all the GOP and a few of the rats.  Stuff like the Contract with America that had popular support at the time.  We could stop doing things that costs us elections and we could consider ways to win more seats rather than just considering what is purely constitutional.

Or we could self righteously stand on principle against the majority of voters.  Aggravate the real sleeping giant, mobs of low information voters, and demand they get their sh*t together.

Sorry you see that as surrender.  But when I see a self destructive error, albeit extremely noble, that I fear could cost us the Senate I tend to focus on it.

Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram, scram
He kept buttin' that dam

'Cause he had high hopes
He had high hopes
He had high apple pie
In the sky hopes

So was slavery the "Law of the Land", whatever that's supposed to mean and "Dred Scott" was the cherry on top. 
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Bigun

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 07:40:04 AM »
If this is true, not only will a clean debt-ceiling bill be passed, but the CR will be passed as well.

Why would Obama budge an inch?

It isn't true! Even Boehner isn't so stupid as to telegraph the end game in the opening!

Offline massadvj

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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2013, 07:54:21 AM »
I never expect anything but capitulation from Boehner, so I would be surprised if he DID stare down OPapaDoc.  I hope he does, but I don't expect it.

Right now, I am happier than I've been in years.  How many times in one's lifetime does one get to say "all nonessential government functions are shut down?"  It's not actually true, I know, but assuming it's even half-true, isn't that what we have been fighting for all our lives?  The longer this goes on the better, as far as I am concerned.

As for Wall Street and financial ruin as a result of "default:"  if our financial system is dependent on government, then it needs to be tamed, and sooner rather than later.  There is so much capital out there waiting on the sidelines for an opportunity to invest in a FREE MARKET that once the market takes a hit and the government has been castrated, it will come roaring back on a more solid foundation.  So I hope that happens as well. 

Anyone invested in stocks and bonds is invested in OPapaDoc, Bernanke and our corrupt Treasury Department.  They deserve what they get.

"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Bigun

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 08:12:08 AM »
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:13:28 AM by Bigun »

Offline massadvj

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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 09:19:23 AM »
There isn't going to be any default despite all the prognostications to the contrary!


I'm well aware.  That's why I put default in quotes.  More fear-mongering.  Nothing would make me, or our financial markets, happier in the long run than the US government having to spend within its means.  Not extending the debt limit would have this effect, and would be better news than the so-called "shut down."

I just think everyone has it backasswards.  Why is it less irresponsible to borrow trillions of dollars than to cut the budget?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 09:20:12 AM by massadvj »
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Bigun

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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 09:26:07 AM »
I'm well aware.  That's why I put default in quotes.  More fear-mongering.  Nothing would make me, or our financial markets, happier in the long run than the US government having to spend within its means.  Not extending the debt limit would have this effect, and would be better news than the so-called "shut down."

I just think everyone has it backasswards.  Why is it less irresponsible to borrow trillions of dollars than to cut the budget?

 :amen:  :amen: and  :amen:

 :beer:

Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 09:52:02 AM »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 11:05:57 AM »
The full damage of Obamacare will not be felt until the delayed business mandate kicks in after the elections.  Then Obama just needs to coast to 2016 and watch the fruits of his legacy.  Something Obama truly believes will be glorious.

Do you believe that Obama thinks he is losing this battle?  I believe Obama thinks standing up against the GOP gives him gravitas.  He might even be enjoying, a little bit, the blatant closings of government property to the public.  I think he thinks the people who are inconvenienced by the shutdown will blame the GOP.

If that's true, how do we negotiate with Obama?  We offer to stop a shut-down that Obama, and it looks to me like most voters, believe makes his position stronger each day it continues.  In exchange we offer to cripple his signature legislation...he may need a sweetener on that deal.

You talk about impeachment but that threat will disappear if Obama's job approval jumps higher and higher each day the government is shut down.  Which I think is likely to happen.

I could be wrong.  I have been wrong many times, but I think we will lose this game of chicken.  I think many voters don't watch the news.  They watch their facebook page and think they get the news and their friends are telling them that the Republicans are screwing with their kids field trip and when they turn on the daily show Jon says something funny about a "continual resolution" what ever that is.

And when it becomes clear to everyone except conservatives that the GOP sucks...
 :vote:
 the government will reopen and those voters can get back to their lives.

We've already lost.  Boehner's not even talking about delay to any part of Obamacare any longer.  Instead, he's focused on getting some tax reform and spending cuts out of a debt ceiling deal.

The only ones who don't realize this thing is over are the die hards.  Boehner's preparing to get out of this mess, even if it costs him the speakership. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 09:06:40 PM »

If the people want Obamacare then Obamacare is Constitutional to the voters. 

Good thing Republicans didn't believe that when they fought SLAVERY!

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 10:02:32 PM »
Good thing Republicans didn't believe that when they fought SLAVERY!

Slavery was Constitutional until it was overturned by the 13th Amendment.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 10:04:18 PM »
Slavery was Constitutional until it was overturned by the 13th Amendment.

But you would have probably fought against overturning it, too.

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 10:06:22 PM »
But you would have probably fought against overturning it, too.

You love the ad hominems when you're losing an argument.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 10:14:58 PM »
But you would have probably fought against overturning it, too.

 :silly:

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2013, 10:15:14 PM »
You love the ad hominems when you're losing an argument.

I'm not losing anything, I am actually supporting what they are doing and I have a spine unlike you who folds rather than stand for something, but I still think there is a LOT more to your insistence on Obamacare staying in place and your anger at Cruz, Lee etc., is rooted in them trying to stop it.

Offline sinkspur

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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2013, 10:27:39 PM »
I'm not losing anything, I am actually supporting what they are doing and I have a spine unlike you who folds rather than stand for something, but I still think there is a LOT more to your insistence on Obamacare staying in place and your anger at Cruz, Lee etc., is rooted in them trying to stop it.

Do you not understand?  CRUZ AND LEE LOST!!!  The idea that Obamacare was going to be defunded or delayed wholesale was stupid going in and lots of people knew it.  Lee and Cruz didn't, but they know it now.

I'm not angry at Cruz or Lee.  They just picked the wrong hill to die on.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.


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