Author Topic: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval  (Read 3626 times)

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Online Bigun

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Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« on: October 02, 2013, 10:50:35 PM »

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 10:53:15 PM »
Personally I believe Dr. Pease to be entirely correct!

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 11:02:09 PM »
I believe he is reading too little into Article 1, Section 7, separating out the first clause from the rest. Here is the full text:

Article 1, Section 7 doesn't separate the 2nd Clause (and so on) from the first, it just identifies where the bill must originate. Clause 2, however, is clear that any bill must still pass the Senate and then the President approve it or it goes back to the House...

It doesn't say that a revenue bill passed in the House is law once the House passes it and it doesn't matter about the Senate or President.

I sometimes wonder where these Constitutional experts come from, but then I remember our President is called one too.

Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »
I don't do this often, but I just deleted my previous comment and am reversing my opinion. I went to the Federalist papers to see the original intent and it does fit with what the author is saying.

Quote
"The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of the government....This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect, every just and salutary measure." James Madison- Federalist 58

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
Since Obamacare is law, any defunding of Obamacare must pass muster with the Senate and be signed by the President.

Spending bills originate in the House, but that doesn't mean the Senate and the President have no role in approving or denying spending.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 11:05:50 PM »
Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?

I was incorrect in the origination clause not giving the final authority to the House. The author made the interpretation (and I found him to be correct in the original language of Madison), that there was clear cause to keep all revenue in the hands of the body closest to the people. See my correction above.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 11:06:41 PM »
Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?

Yes.  And the Senate can refuse to pass any budget that doesn't contain funding for Obamacare. 

Thus, we have a shutdown.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 11:07:39 PM »
Since Obamacare is law, any defunding of Obamacare must pass muster with the Senate and be signed by the President.

Spending bills originate in the House, but that doesn't mean the Senate and the President have no role in approving or denying spending.

B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.  Just because something is "the law of the land" does not mean that tax revenue must be spent on that legislation - the two are logically distinct constructs - and even if the original legislation had expressly stated that it must be funded, Congress still wouldn't have to fund it because Congress cannot bind itself to pass, or to not pass, certain types of legislation in the future.  As such, there is nothing that would prevent the present Congress from passing an appropriations bill that simply did not appropriate any funds for those particular activities.  This is so because one Congress cannot bind a later Congress by legislation intended to prevent that later Congress from passing, or not passing, certain types of legislation.  To give a simple example:  suppose at some point in time Congress agreed that bicycles should forever remain tax-free and therefore passed a bill stating that (a) there shall be no tax on bicycles, and (b) no future Congress may impose a tax of any sort on bicycles, and any legislation to the contrary is automatically null and void.

Notwithstanding that, if the next Congress (i.e., the Congress following one election) decides that bicycles should be taxed out of existence and passes a law imposing a tax on the purchase of a bicycle (where such bicycle is purchased in interstate commerce) equal to 1000% of the purchase price, that legislation is perfectly valid and necessarily trumps the earlier legislation even if that earlier legislation was never repealed and was still codified into the U.S. Code.

The concept is implicit repeal and is based on the very simple idea that the last legislative act properly enacted pursuant to the Constitution - and the Constitution alone - trumps any earlier inconsistent legislation.

Therefore, even if Obastardcare mandated its own funding, that alone cannot constrain this Congress to provide such funding and, since the House appropriates funds for government activities, and can be as general or as specific as they wish to be, they can pass an appropriations bill that appropriates funds in great detail for all of the government agencies, but which omits any mention of the offices needed to implement Obastardcare; those offices would therefore not receive any funds, notwithstanding the fact that there was nothing in that appropriations bill that "defunded" those offices.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:20:18 PM by Oceander »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 11:08:56 PM »
I was incorrect in the origination clause not giving the final authority to the House. The author made the interpretation (and I found him to be correct in the original language of Madison), that there was clear cause to keep all revenue in the hands of the body closest to the people. See my correction above.

Any budget that does not contain funding for items the Senate deems needing funding can be voted down.   And even if the Senate passed said budget, the President can veto it.

In other words, the House can withhold funding, but only with the consent of the Senate and the President.

Otherwise, the government is not funded and is shutdown.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:00 PM »
Yes.  And the Senate can refuse to pass any budget that doesn't contain funding for Obamacare. 

Thus, we have a shutdown.

The senate has not passed a budget in five plus years! What's new about that?

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:18 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:55 PM »
B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.

And the Senate can refuse to pass it, as the Senate has done.

Thus the current impasse.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 11:14:37 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.

But the Senate can amend and send back to the House.  Which is what has happened.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 11:15:32 PM »
I don't do this often, but I just deleted my previous comment and am reversing my opinion. I went to the Federalist papers to see the original intent and it does fit with what the author is saying.

Thank you! That is my finding as well!

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 11:17:50 PM »
B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.

That is correct. The senate can propose amendments but if the house refuses to accept them they are moot.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 11:18:59 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.

 Yes.  The Senate can offer or strip Amendments and send the bill back to the House.  That's precisely what's happened.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 11:21:14 PM »
It's fascinating how dedicated Mr. Sinkspur is to getting Obamacare funded and off the ground.  Why is that?

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 11:24:41 PM »
I'll pick "How Sinkspur benefits financially" for 500, Alex.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:25:35 PM by Lipstick on a Hillary »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 11:24:55 PM »
It's fascinating how dedicated Mr. Sinkspur is to getting Obamacare funded and off the ground.  Why is that?

This is a constitutional discussion that applies to any bill or law.

I wish Obamacare could be repealed.  Until the GOP takes the Senate and wins the Presidency, it cannot be repealed.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 11:25:23 PM »
I'll take that he benefits financially for 500, Alex.

You lose.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 11:39:25 PM »
You're so easy.   :eatdrink:

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 11:56:45 PM »
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:01:43 AM by Bigun »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 12:10:53 AM »
You are the only one on this entire thread who has said a word about repealed!  We are talking about FUNDING here!  Try reading the article again if you ever did in the first place.

Bigun, I love ya.  But defunding Obamacare has not happened, and even the GOP has backed off attempting to do it.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 09:32:10 AM »
Bigun, I love ya.  But defunding Obamacare has not happened, and even the GOP has backed off attempting to do it.

Really??? I'm hearing just the opposite!

I'm thinking you should get those voices in your head checked out!

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 10:10:56 AM »
Really??? I'm hearing just the opposite!

I'm thinking you should get those voices in your head checked out!

Where's the current GOP proposal to defund Obamacare?  The GOP is now down to delaying it. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.


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