Author Topic: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval  (Read 3329 times)

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Online Bigun

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Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« on: October 02, 2013, 10:50:35 PM »
Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval

http://www.examiner.com/article/obamacare-can-be-defunded-without-senate-approval



When the House passed legislation to defund ObamaCare but would keep the government running through mid-December, the Senate, led by Senate Majority Leader, Senator Harry Reid (D-NV) stated that they would not budge on Obamacare and the legislation was defeated.

On Monday, Dr. Harold Pease, an expert on the United States Constitution, stated that the authority in dealing with Obamacare funding belongs to the U.S. House, not the U.S. Senate and that the House is doing this all wrong.

Pease said, “Everything hinged upon funding which was given exclusively to the House of Representatives, the only power that they alone had.”

Pease went on to say, “All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills. To fund anything, in this case Obamacare, first approval is required by the House of Representatives.”

“If that does not happen taxpayer money cannot be spent. The people, through their representatives to Congress, have determined, after a three-year closer scrutiny of The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), that it does not protect the patient, is not affordable and is not even workable; hence in the interests of the vast majority of the people needs to be defunded.”

When the United States Supreme Court ruled on Obamacare in 2012, Chief Justice Roberts stance on Obamacare coincides with the intent of the U.S. Constitution, explained by Pease, and the powers between the House and Senate.

According to the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Obamacare cannot be implemented and is not considered the law of the land, contrary to Democrat claims.

Bubba Atkinson of the Independent Journal Review wrote, “Chief Justice Roberts actually ruled the mandate, relative to the commerce clause, was unconstitutional. That is how the Democrats got Obama-care going in the first place. This is critical. His ruling means Congress can’t compel American citizens to purchase anything, ever. The notion is now officially and forever, unconstitutional. As it should be.”

“Next, he stated that, because Congress doesn’t have the ability to mandate, it must, to fund Obama-care, rely on its power to tax. Therefore, the mechanism that funds Obama-care is a tax,” said Atkinson. “He struck down as unconstitutional, the Obama-care idea that the federal government can bully states into complying by yanking their existing medicaid funding. Liberals, through Obama-care, basically said to the states — “comply with Obama-care or we will stop existing funding.” Roberts ruled that is a no-no.”

When the House attached Obamacare to the legislation in funding the government, it made a mistake in doing so and the funding of Obamacare should have been separate, thereby giving the Senate no power in denying the Houses’ request to defund Obamacare.

Pease said, “House opposition to funding Obamacare would have been far more powerful if made a “stand alone” bill not attached to general funding, but it is not. “Stand alone,” having no other parts, would have left the Senate no wiggle or compromise room once it went to them, nor would there be for the Joint Conference Committee thereafter that reconciles any differences between the two houses. There would be nothing to reconcile, Obamacare is merely defunded.”

“Still, the intent of the Founding Fathers was to give the people, through their House of Representatives, the power collectively to say no to any proposed federal tax, which she is decidedly doing.”

If Obamacare is removed from the government budget, presented, and voted on as a separate bill, Obamacare can be defunded by the House and the Senate and the President has no constitutional authority to override the House decision.
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” —Voltaire

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 10:53:15 PM »
Personally I believe Dr. Pease to be entirely correct!
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” —Voltaire

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 11:02:09 PM »
I believe he is reading too little into Article 1, Section 7, separating out the first clause from the rest. Here is the full text:

Article 1, Section 7 doesn't separate the 2nd Clause (and so on) from the first, it just identifies where the bill must originate. Clause 2, however, is clear that any bill must still pass the Senate and then the President approve it or it goes back to the House...

It doesn't say that a revenue bill passed in the House is law once the House passes it and it doesn't matter about the Senate or President.

I sometimes wonder where these Constitutional experts come from, but then I remember our President is called one too.

Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” —Voltaire

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »
I don't do this often, but I just deleted my previous comment and am reversing my opinion. I went to the Federalist papers to see the original intent and it does fit with what the author is saying.

Quote
"The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of the government....This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect, every just and salutary measure." James Madison- Federalist 58
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
Since Obamacare is law, any defunding of Obamacare must pass muster with the Senate and be signed by the President.

Spending bills originate in the House, but that doesn't mean the Senate and the President have no role in approving or denying spending.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 11:05:50 PM »
Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?

I was incorrect in the origination clause not giving the final authority to the House. The author made the interpretation (and I found him to be correct in the original language of Madison), that there was clear cause to keep all revenue in the hands of the body closest to the people. See my correction above.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 11:06:41 PM »
Still if the house refuses to fund it it cannot be funded.

How is that incorrect?

Yes.  And the Senate can refuse to pass any budget that doesn't contain funding for Obamacare. 

Thus, we have a shutdown.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 11:07:39 PM »
Since Obamacare is law, any defunding of Obamacare must pass muster with the Senate and be signed by the President.

Spending bills originate in the House, but that doesn't mean the Senate and the President have no role in approving or denying spending.

B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.  Just because something is "the law of the land" does not mean that tax revenue must be spent on that legislation - the two are logically distinct constructs - and even if the original legislation had expressly stated that it must be funded, Congress still wouldn't have to fund it because Congress cannot bind itself to pass, or to not pass, certain types of legislation in the future.  As such, there is nothing that would prevent the present Congress from passing an appropriations bill that simply did not appropriate any funds for those particular activities.  This is so because one Congress cannot bind a later Congress by legislation intended to prevent that later Congress from passing, or not passing, certain types of legislation.  To give a simple example:  suppose at some point in time Congress agreed that bicycles should forever remain tax-free and therefore passed a bill stating that (a) there shall be no tax on bicycles, and (b) no future Congress may impose a tax of any sort on bicycles, and any legislation to the contrary is automatically null and void.

Notwithstanding that, if the next Congress (i.e., the Congress following one election) decides that bicycles should be taxed out of existence and passes a law imposing a tax on the purchase of a bicycle (where such bicycle is purchased in interstate commerce) equal to 1000% of the purchase price, that legislation is perfectly valid and necessarily trumps the earlier legislation even if that earlier legislation was never repealed and was still codified into the U.S. Code.

The concept is implicit repeal and is based on the very simple idea that the last legislative act properly enacted pursuant to the Constitution - and the Constitution alone - trumps any earlier inconsistent legislation.

Therefore, even if Obastardcare mandated its own funding, that alone cannot constrain this Congress to provide such funding and, since the House appropriates funds for government activities, and can be as general or as specific as they wish to be, they can pass an appropriations bill that appropriates funds in great detail for all of the government agencies, but which omits any mention of the offices needed to implement Obastardcare; those offices would therefore not receive any funds, notwithstanding the fact that there was nothing in that appropriations bill that "defunded" those offices.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:20:18 PM by Oceander »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2013, 11:08:56 PM »
I was incorrect in the origination clause not giving the final authority to the House. The author made the interpretation (and I found him to be correct in the original language of Madison), that there was clear cause to keep all revenue in the hands of the body closest to the people. See my correction above.

Any budget that does not contain funding for items the Senate deems needing funding can be voted down.   And even if the Senate passed said budget, the President can veto it.

In other words, the House can withhold funding, but only with the consent of the Senate and the President.

Otherwise, the government is not funded and is shutdown.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:00 PM »
Yes.  And the Senate can refuse to pass any budget that doesn't contain funding for Obamacare. 

Thus, we have a shutdown.

The senate has not passed a budget in five plus years! What's new about that?
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:18 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 11:09:55 PM »
B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.

And the Senate can refuse to pass it, as the Senate has done.

Thus the current impasse.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 11:14:37 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.

But the Senate can amend and send back to the House.  Which is what has happened.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 11:15:32 PM »
I don't do this often, but I just deleted my previous comment and am reversing my opinion. I went to the Federalist papers to see the original intent and it does fit with what the author is saying.

Thank you! That is my finding as well!
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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 11:17:50 PM »
B.S.  The House need merely pass an appropriations bill that fails to contain funds that would have otherwise funded Obastardcare.

That is correct. The senate can propose amendments but if the house refuses to accept them they are moot.
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” —Voltaire

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 11:18:59 PM »
Just to add to that, the first author of this clause, Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, required all "money bills" (including appropriations) to originate in the House and would have given the Senate no power to amend. 

James Wilson of Pennsylvania later helped modify it explaining, "If both branches were to say yes or no, it was of little consequence which should say yes or no first."

Wilson's interpretation was closest to what the final became. Revenue is held to the House and the Senate only has the power to offer Amendments.

 Yes.  The Senate can offer or strip Amendments and send the bill back to the House.  That's precisely what's happened.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 11:21:14 PM »
It's fascinating how dedicated Mr. Sinkspur is to getting Obamacare funded and off the ground.  Why is that?

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 11:24:41 PM »
I'll pick "How Sinkspur benefits financially" for 500, Alex.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:25:35 PM by Lipstick on a Hillary »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 11:24:55 PM »
It's fascinating how dedicated Mr. Sinkspur is to getting Obamacare funded and off the ground.  Why is that?

This is a constitutional discussion that applies to any bill or law.

I wish Obamacare could be repealed.  Until the GOP takes the Senate and wins the Presidency, it cannot be repealed.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 11:25:23 PM »
I'll take that he benefits financially for 500, Alex.

You lose.
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Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 11:39:25 PM »
You're so easy.   :eatdrink:

Online Bigun

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 11:56:45 PM »
This is a constitutional discussion that applies to any bill or law.

I wish Obamacare could be repealed.  Until the GOP takes the Senate and wins the Presidency, it cannot be repealed.

You are the only one on this entire thread who has said a word about repealed!  We are talking about FUNDING here!  Try reading the article again if you ever did in the first place.

Quote
“House opposition to funding Obamacare would have been far more powerful if made a “stand alone” bill not attached to general funding, but it is not. “Stand alone,” having no other parts, would have left the Senate no wiggle or compromise room once it went to them, nor would there be for the Joint Conference Committee thereafter that reconciles any differences between the two houses. There would be nothing to reconcile, Obamacare is merely defunded.”
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:01:43 AM by Bigun »
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 12:10:53 AM »
You are the only one on this entire thread who has said a word about repealed!  We are talking about FUNDING here!  Try reading the article again if you ever did in the first place.

Bigun, I love ya.  But defunding Obamacare has not happened, and even the GOP has backed off attempting to do it.
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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 09:32:10 AM »
Bigun, I love ya.  But defunding Obamacare has not happened, and even the GOP has backed off attempting to do it.

Really??? I'm hearing just the opposite!

I'm thinking you should get those voices in your head checked out!
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Obamacare can be defunded without Senate approval
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 10:10:56 AM »
Really??? I'm hearing just the opposite!

I'm thinking you should get those voices in your head checked out!

Where's the current GOP proposal to defund Obamacare?  The GOP is now down to delaying it. 
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