Author Topic: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?  (Read 1737 times)

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Offline massadvj

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http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/08/what-can-be-done-about-pedophilia/279024/


What Can Be Done About Pedophilia?
Academics on the most common questions, and where we stand with "treatment"
ALICE DREGERAUG 26 2013, 9:42 AM ET

To accompany todays’s first-person essay from David Goldberg, "I, Pedophile," I asked James Cantor, Ph.D., an international expert on pedophilia, to answer some common questions. Dr. Cantor is Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto and the editor-in-chief of Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment. (We have known each other for about 7 years through our common academic interests.)

How is pedophilia usually defined?

Pedophilia is the sexual preference for or a strong sexual interest in children. The term usually refers only to sexual preference for/interest in prepubescent or early pubescent children.

Sometimes people like David Goldberg, the author of the essay, are seen or referred to as "gold star pedophiles" or "good pedophiles." Can you explain what those seemingly incongruous terms mean?

It is extremely important not to confuse pedophilia—meaning the sexual interest in children—with actual child molestation. Not every person who experiences sexual attractions to children acts on those attractions. People who are pedophilic but who work to remain celibate their entire lives are being increasingly recognized as needing and deserving all the support society can give them.

What do you think David means when he refers to people being "too scared of the legal and social consequences" to seek help?

Many jurisdictions have passed mandatory reporting regulations for psychologists and other health care providers. Consequently, when someone who thinks he might be a pedophile comes in for counseling or therapy, the psychologist may be compelled by law to report the person to the authorities. That, of course, can lead to loss of the person’s job, family, and everything else. So, these people have simply stopped coming in at all, and instead of getting help to them, we now have pedophiles circulating in society receiving no support at all.

What evidence do we have that pedophilia is a sexual orientation?

“Sexual orientation” means different things in different contexts. When they say “sexual orientation,” most people mean a sexual interest that is inborn and unchangeable. No one chooses to be sexually attracted to children, although people do choose whether they act on their sexual attractions. Therapists have been attempting to turn pedophiles into non-pedophiles for a very long time, but no one has presented any objective evidence of any enduring change in sexual interests. People can learn self-control, people can take sex-drive-reducing medications, and people can learn how to live more healthy and productive lives, but we do not appear to be able to change the pedophilia itself.

What do we know about where pedophilia comes from?

The best current evidence suggests that pedophilia results from atypical wiring in the brain. This field of research is still very new, but it appears that there exists what could be considered a “cross-wiring” in the brain anatomy that is responsible for controlling natural social instincts or behavior. Although learning happens after birth, humans are pre-wired to recognize and respond to certain stimuli. It seems, from research conducted thus far, that stimuli that usually elicits nurturing and protective responses in most adults are instead eliciting sexual responses in pedophiles.

So are pedophiles “born that way”?

In studies, pedophiles show signs that their sexual interests are related to brain structure and that at least some differences existed in their brains before birth. For example, pedophiles show greatly elevated rates of non-right-handedness and minor physical anomalies. Thus, although pedophilia should never be confused with homosexuality, pedophilia can be meaningfully described as a sexual orientation. Scientists have more specifically called it an “age orientation.” Caution has to be used, however, so as not to confuse the scientific use of the phrase “sexual orientation” with its use in law. Because the phrase “sexual orientation” has been used as shorthand (or as a euphemism) for homosexuality, there exist laws and policies barring discrimination on the basis of “sexual orientation.” These were not likely intended to refer to pedophilia.

Is it reasonable to be afraid that, if we recognize pedophilia as a sexual orientation, we will have to consider it socially acceptable?

It is reasonable for questions of social acceptability to be directed at behaviors. People are responsible for their behaviors, not their thoughts or sexual attractions. For example, we very readily acknowledge that a typical heterosexual man will, while just walking down the street, find some women sexually attractive. We would not, however, conclude it is socially acceptable for him to coerce any of those women into sex. Thinking of pedophilia as an innate characteristic that a person did not choose and cannot change can go a very long way in helping society come to a rational response to the problem—one that can help prevent molestation of children.

Can someone be cured of pedophilic desires? For example, could a pedophile through treatment go on to have either no sexual desire or a fundamentally different kind of sexual orientation?

The best treatments we have available for pedophiles help them develop the skills they need to live a healthy, offense-free life and, in some cases, to block their sex drives (if they feel it would help them). We have not yet found a way to convert pedophiles into non-pedophiles that are any more effective than the many failed attempts to convert gay men and lesbians into heterosexuals.

What treatments are available for pedophilia?

In my experience, pedophiles are the most likely to commit their offenses when they feel that they have nothing going for them in their lives and that therefore they have nothing to lose. People are most likely to do the most desperate things when they feel the most desperate. Unfortunately, much of the current social systems greatly increase rather than decrease these people’s feelings of desperation.

Traditional treatments for pedophiles have largely been based on treatments initially designed for addictions, using a model called Relapse Prevention. It has been very difficult to assess the effectiveness of the model (or any model), because we cannot randomize people into treatment and placebo groups.

My greatest hope is less about treatment, however, and more about prevention. Despite the fact that many people imagine sex offenders to be insatiable predators or ticking time bombs, only 10−15 percent of sex offenders commit new offenses. I believe we can prevent a much greater number of victims if we put greater energies into early detection and provide support before the first offense occurs, rather than relying only on stronger and stronger punishments after the fact.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 08:49:10 AM »
Answer: Because there are not enough of them, they are not politically organized, and they have no economic clout.  Otherwise, the Democrat/MSM machine would be up in arms over our "horrid discrimination against" pedophiles.

If you can make the case that genetics justifies gay rights, then the same applies to pedophiles.  Actually, even more so, since the science on pedophiles is much more certain as to genetic cause.
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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 11:37:54 AM »
Answer: Because there are not enough of them, they are not politically organized, and they have no economic clout.  Otherwise, the Democrat/MSM machine would be up in arms over our "horrid discrimination against" pedophiles.

If you can make the case that genetics justifies gay rights, then the same applies to pedophiles.  Actually, even more so, since the science on pedophiles is much more certain as to genetic cause.

It raises more starkly the issue about how society reacts to/deals with individuals who are born with some defect that predisposes them to certain conduct that society considers - rightly so - to be abominable?  It also raises more starkly the allied question about what society does that either condones or encourages such individuals to act on their predispositions, or that dissuades them from so acting.  For example, has society's general turn toward mainstreaming pornography of almost all sorts - Fifty Shades of Grey has mainstreamed S&M much more so than any number of printings of the Maquis de Sade's writings could - effectively given society's imprimatur on all forms of "deviant" - which is to say, definitely not in line with traditional and customary norms - sexual behavior (i.e., something more than simply accepting that people have different proclivities without accepting agnosticism toward the actual acting out of those proclivities)?

In other words, has the so-called sexual revolution finally come full circle, so that it is now social dogma that everyone's sexual proclivities are sacrosanct, and that interference with someone else's sexuality is frowned upon?

Also, at what point should the line be drawn?  The article makes a clear distinction between people who have the inclination but do not act on it, and those who do act on it, and posits that society should affirmatively encourage those with the inclination to not act upon it?  Is this not fully in line with the (Christian) view that one should love the sinner but hate the sin?  That, for example, homosexuals are acceptable so long as they do not act on their homosexual impulses?

Fifty shades of grey, indeed.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 01:25:10 PM »
It raises more starkly the issue about how society reacts to/deals with individuals who are born with some defect that predisposes them to certain conduct that society considers - rightly so - to be abominable?  It also raises more starkly the allied question about what society does that either condones or encourages such individuals to act on their predispositions, or that dissuades them from so acting.  For example, has society's general turn toward mainstreaming pornography of almost all sorts - Fifty Shades of Grey has mainstreamed S&M much more so than any number of printings of the Maquis de Sade's writings could - effectively given society's imprimatur on all forms of "deviant" - which is to say, definitely not in line with traditional and customary norms - sexual behavior (i.e., something more than simply accepting that people have different proclivities without accepting agnosticism toward the actual acting out of those proclivities)?

In other words, has the so-called sexual revolution finally come full circle, so that it is now social dogma that everyone's sexual proclivities are sacrosanct, and that interference with someone else's sexuality is frowned upon?

Also, at what point should the line be drawn?  The article makes a clear distinction between people who have the inclination but do not act on it, and those who do act on it, and posits that society should affirmatively encourage those with the inclination to not act upon it?  Is this not fully in line with the (Christian) view that one should love the sinner but hate the sin?  That, for example, homosexuals are acceptable so long as they do not act on their homosexual impulses?

Fifty shades of grey, indeed.

All very good points. 

I find it interesting that liberals seem to think that it is completely reasonable to discourage pedophiles from acting on their sexual urges, whereas it is completely stupid to discourage gays, or teenagers for that matter, from acting on theirs.  The idea that a person might be disciplined enough to reel in his id is usually anathema to liberals, except in this one case. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:34:58 PM by massadvj »
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 01:30:17 PM »
I find it interesting that liberals seem to think that it is completely reasonable to discourage pedophiles from acting on their sexual urges, whereas it is completely stupid to discourage gays from acting on theirs.  The idea that a person might be disciplined enough to reel in his id is usually anathema to liberals, except in this one case.

Probably because so many homosexuals were molested when they were children...


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Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
Probably because so many homosexuals were molested when they were children...

Well, if child molestation is a cause of homosexuality, then liberals ought to be encouraging it.  Libs seem to think that gay sex is a "higher order" form of sex than sex between heterosexuals, so anything that promotes homosexuality would be a good thing for society.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 01:37:24 PM »
Well, if child molestation is a cause of homosexuality, then liberals ought to be encouraging it.  Libs seem to think that gay sex is a "higher order" form of sex than sex between heterosexuals, so anything that promotes homosexuality would be a good thing for society.

Yeah, except that homosexuals hate pedophiles, so liberals can never support them.


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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 01:39:54 PM »
All very good points. 

I find it interesting that liberals seem to think that it is completely reasonable to discourage pedophiles from acting on their sexual urges, whereas it is completely stupid to discourage gays, or teenagers for that matter, from acting on theirs.  The idea that a person might be disciplined enough to reel in his id is usually anathema to liberals, except in this one case. 

I agree, and I would go further and posit that it is precisely liberals' willingness to-date to sanction the freedom of all manner of sexual conduct that has led many pedophiles to act on their impulses when formerly they might have successfully controlled themselves.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 01:43:21 PM »
Yeah, except that homosexuals hate pedophiles, so liberals can never support them.

I don't know about that. 

There is a lot of overlap in membership between NAMBLA and the more radical elements of the gay community.  This was especially true in the earlier days of the gay movement.  today the movement steers clear, knowing the public relations nightmare that would ensue if people connected gays with pedophiles.  But I don't suspect most gays hate pedophiles.  I suspect a good percentage of gays would prefer veal from time to time, if you catch my drift.  This whole political/cultural movement encouraging kids to "express their true sexuality" early in life is very much related to that.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:44:41 PM by massadvj »
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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 01:47:55 PM »
But I don't suspect most gays hate pedophiles.

Yeah, just the ones who were molested as children...


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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 07:47:03 PM »
Quote
Answer: Because there are not enough of them, they are not politically organized, and they have no economic clout.  Otherwise, the Democrat/MSM machine would be up in arms over our "horrid discrimination against" pedophiles.
They need to get on more reality TV shows (something other than Chris Hansen's "To Catch a Perv" or whatever that's called). Do any of the have really terrific fashion sense? How about home decorating - something that appeals to young children while screaming "color!"
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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 09:07:54 PM »
It's coming sooner or later.  Whether or not it will be successful is still unknown, but 20 years ago no one thought that the homos would be on the verge of taking over the country.

I think the day will come where age of consent laws are repealed, either state by state, or most likely by the Supreme Court, in the name of "love and fairness."
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »
It's coming sooner or later.  Whether or not it will be successful is still unknown, but 20 years ago no one thought that the homos would be on the verge of taking over the country.

I think the day will come where age of consent laws are repealed, either state by state, or most likely by the Supreme Court, in the name of "love and fairness."

There is already a movement in the schools to allow transexual kids to use the bathroom of their choice and to encourage homosexual kids to "accept" their sexuality.  How can a kid "accept" his sexuality without having sex?  And who is he expected to have sex with?

Every 11 year old in the country knows what GBLT means, thanks to one of the most effective recruiting and PR machines in the USA.  Don't think for a second that they are not focused on the next generation.
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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2013, 11:21:05 PM »
There is already a movement in the schools to allow transexual kids to use the bathroom of their choice and to encourage homosexual kids to "accept" their sexuality.  How can a kid "accept" his sexuality without having sex?  And who is he expected to have sex with?

Every 11 year old in the country knows what GBLT means, thanks to one of the most effective recruiting and PR machines in the USA.  Don't think for a second that they are not focused on the next generation.

Do heterosexual teenage boys need to have sex in order to "accept" that they're straight, that they're guys who find girls really, really attractive?  If not, then why assume that homosexual teenagers have to have sex in order to "accept" that they're bent (pardon the play on the term "straight")?

Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2013, 07:25:33 AM »
Do heterosexual teenage boys need to have sex in order to "accept" that they're straight, that they're guys who find girls really, really attractive?  If not, then why assume that homosexual teenagers have to have sex in order to "accept" that they're bent (pardon the play on the term "straight")?

Apparently, teenage boys DO have to have sex in order to "accept" they're straight, else why give them free condoms?  Very clearly, the orientation of the educators is that sexuality is something that should be expressed early, often and with whomever (or whatever) one pleases.  It goes hand in hand with Montesorri philosophy.
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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2013, 02:56:04 PM »
Apparently, teenage boys DO have to have sex in order to "accept" they're straight, else why give them free condoms?  Very clearly, the orientation of the educators is that sexuality is something that should be expressed early, often and with whomever (or whatever) one pleases.  It goes hand in hand with Montesorri philosophy.

Now you're confusing actual reality with political posturing.  The question is:  outside of the political posturing, do heterosexual boys inherently have to have sex in order to "accept" that they're heterosexual boys who really, really like girls?

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2013, 03:03:28 PM »
Now you're confusing actual reality with political posturing.  The question is:  outside of the political posturing, do heterosexual boys inherently have to have sex in order to "accept" that they're heterosexual boys who really, really like girls?

Sometimes. Not always. Only got anecdotal for that claim though.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 03:15:38 PM »
Now you're confusing actual reality with political posturing.  The question is:  outside of the political posturing, do heterosexual boys inherently have to have sex in order to "accept" that they're heterosexual boys who really, really like girls?

You mean in reality teenage boys aren't given free condoms?

As for myself, I didn't need to have sex to know I was enamored with women.  Also, I went to Catholic school, so there were very clear lines between bulls and cows.  Personally, I think it would be very easy to plant the seed of homosexual orientation into a 10 or 11 year-old kid, without there being any sex involved, especially if pop culture regarded gayness as something that is "cool."  But it would be far more powerful if there was sex involved.

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 03:25:56 PM »
You mean in reality teenage boys aren't given free condoms?

As for myself, I didn't need to have sex to know I was enamored with women.  Also, I went to Catholic school, so there were very clear lines between bulls and cows.  Personally, I think it would be very easy to plant the seed of homosexual orientation into a 10 or 11 year-old kid, without there being any sex involved, especially if pop culture regarded gayness as something that is "cool."  But it would be far more powerful if there was sex involved.



I seriously doubt if that seed would take root in any boy who was heterosexual.  Sexuality is not predominantly driven by choice, it's driven by genes because that's the only way that genes get to reproduce themselves in a species like human beings that doesn't spore or otherwise reproduce asexually.  Why?  Because if sexuality is predominantly about choice, then one can just as easily choose to be asexual - after all, there's a lot of trouble and effort involved with sex, once the "fun" is taken out - which wouldn't serve the ends of the genes, would it?  The genetic lines of people for whom sexuality was predominantly driven by choice would rather die off and leave the gene pool.  My guess would be that this hasn't happened with homosexuals because they still have that same gene-driven sex drive, so they still want to have sex, and since homosexuality has generally not been a favored lifestyle choice throughout history, other than for certain effete elites, like some of the ancient Greek ruling classes, that sex drive had to be both covered up - bearded - as well as given some sort of outlet; accordingly, a lot of gay men have historically married and usually had a few children - not a difficult thing to do historically when it was the wife, not the husband, who did most of the hard work raising the children; many fathers are essentially fire-and-forget - and then with their ostensible heterosexuality established, could discretely go their "merry" (pardon the pun on "gay") way.  What's interesting about this line of thought is that the "normalization" of homosexuality and the preference for exclusive homosexual relationships, all of which mean that homosexuals no longer need to "beard" themselves, may very well lead to winnowing out whatever genes predispose someone to homosexuality.

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »
I seriously doubt if that seed would take root in any boy who was heterosexual.  Sexuality is not predominantly driven by choice, it's driven by genes because that's the only way that genes get to reproduce themselves in a species like human beings that doesn't spore or otherwise reproduce asexually.  Why?  Because if sexuality is predominantly about choice, then one can just as easily choose to be asexual - after all, there's a lot of trouble and effort involved with sex, once the "fun" is taken out - which wouldn't serve the ends of the genes, would it?  The genetic lines of people for whom sexuality was predominantly driven by choice would rather die off and leave the gene pool.  My guess would be that this hasn't happened with homosexuals because they still have that same gene-driven sex drive, so they still want to have sex, and since homosexuality has generally not been a favored lifestyle choice throughout history, other than for certain effete elites, like some of the ancient Greek ruling classes, that sex drive had to be both covered up - bearded - as well as given some sort of outlet; accordingly, a lot of gay men have historically married and usually had a few children - not a difficult thing to do historically when it was the wife, not the husband, who did most of the hard work raising the children; many fathers are essentially fire-and-forget - and then with their ostensible heterosexuality established, could discretely go their "merry" (pardon the pun on "gay") way.  What's interesting about this line of thought is that the "normalization" of homosexuality and the preference for exclusive homosexual relationships, all of which mean that homosexuals no longer need to "beard" themselves, may very well lead to winnowing out whatever genes predispose someone to homosexuality.


Most of the science on the subject says that some homosexuals are genetically predisposed to be gay.  But in the majority of cases it is a learned behavior.

http://genderwholeness.com/lds/understanding/what-causes-male-homosexuality/
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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2013, 08:09:03 PM »
Most of the science on the subject says that some homosexuals are genetically predisposed to be gay.  But in the majority of cases it is a learned behavior.

http://genderwholeness.com/lds/understanding/what-causes-male-homosexuality/


Actually, the science on the matter says no such thing.

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Re: Pedophiles "Born That Way" -- Why No Cry for "Fairness" or "Equality"?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2013, 09:57:20 PM »
Actually, the science on the matter says no such thing.


"The relationship between biology and sexual orientation is a subject of research. A simple and singular determinant for sexual orientation has not been conclusively demonstrated—various studies point to different, even conflicting positions—but scientists hypothesize that a combination of genetic, hormonal and social factors determine sexual orientation."

There is no study I have ever seen that shows genetic factors explaining more than half the variance in predicting homosexuality.  Most studies to date show that genetics are significant, but when you isolate genetics, you find that only a minority of cases are explained.  This includes studies with identical twins, where in the majority of cases when one twin is gay, the other is not (although they are both more likely to be gay than if they were mere siblings).  In fact, most studies show non-genetic factors are better predictors than genetics.  If you know of a study that says otherwise, maybe you can find a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

From the link:

Biometric modeling revealed that, in men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance [of sexual orientation], the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance.  (In other words, about 60 percent of gays LEARNED to be that way from their individual environments).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:57:49 PM by massadvj »
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