Author Topic: What would you say to an avowed liberal who posts this on Facebook...?  (Read 1876 times)

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Offline Lando Lincoln

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For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

famousdayandyear

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This is a straw man statement.
The real treachery occurs when the following statement is made: "My Evil is just as good as your Virtue"

Offline Oceander

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I would say:  physician, heal thyself.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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The "cult of ignorance" today has as its center America's own colleges and universities.

The institutions that once served as the locii of learning and as repositories of human knowledge, culture, and experience have largely devolved into shallow pools of political correctness, ideological rigidity, and group-based resentments.

In lieu of an atmosphere in which learning may flourish, we now have stupefying speech codes, a near-universal hostility to Virtue that masquerades as "tolerance", and absurd parodies of instruction in manufactured "disciplines" absent of any objective value or meaning.

Ignorance dressed in scholarly robes is still ignorance, just as any pretense of intellectualism as informed by lock-step political conformity is yet profoundly anti-intellectual.
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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The "cult of ignorance" today has as its center America's own colleges and universities.

The institutions that once served as the locii of learning and as repositories of human knowledge, culture, and experience have largely devolved into shallow pools of political correctness, ideological rigidity, and group-based resentments.

In lieu of an atmosphere in which learning may flourish, we now have stupefying speech codes, a near-universal hostility to Virtue that masquerades as "tolerance", and absurd parodies of instruction in manufactured "disciplines" absent of any objective value or meaning.

Ignorance dressed in scholarly robes is still ignorance, just as any pretense of intellectualism as informed by lock-step political conformity is yet profoundly anti-intellectual.

Very well stated (I may steal some of it).  It is the pretense of intellectualism that angers me the most as it is always self-adjudged.  And, it is those pseudo-intellectuals who exploit the "ignorant" for political ends.
For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

Offline AbaraXas

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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Thank you all.  I enjoyed this and I did indeed... steal some of it.
For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Very well stated (I may steal some of it).  It is the pretense of intellectualism that angers me the most as it is always self-adjudged.  And, it is those pseudo-intellectuals who exploit the "ignorant" for political ends.

You're welcome (and thanks to MUD as well).

The pretense of intellectualism, in the service of a political agenda has been an effective weapon in the hands of America's policy and academic elites for a very long time.

Note that the presumption of superior intelligence on the part of these elites is often accompanied by an equal presumption of intellectual insufficiency or even incapacity on the part of those they seek to command and control. The effect is to put political opponents on the defensive, invalidating their arguments without having to offer proof or to defend one's own positions by means of logic or by reference to empirical fact.

The practitioners of this method - broadly speaking, our "Progressives" - frequently substitute logical fallacies for true arguments - the "straw man", false dilemmas, the argument ad hominem, "poisoning the well", appeals to fear or emotion, and especially: the argument from authority, by which some persons (our elites) are presumed to have superior knowledge and thus it is said, any of their claims must be afforded a presumption of truth.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 03:41:03 PM by andy58-in-nh »
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Alumni gotta get involved in running their alma maters...

First thing we do is eliminate ALL tenure for our Professors...and if you ain't teaching, you ain't a Professor...
And hey, if they squawk, let 'em walk...MUD :smokin:

I graduated over 30 years ago from one o' them thar Ivy-covered places... and it is fascinating to me just how little has changed amongst the Professorial Class.

Back in the 70s, we had any number of self-proclaimed Marxists in the humanities departments... and the university still does today; some of the same people, in fact. Aside from government, where else could they hold down a job? As long as they continue to publish scholarly articles in magazines that no one reads and teach boutique courses in Alternative Reality, they maintain their tenure.
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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In an earlier post on Facebook, I had used andy58-in-NH's "ignorance dressed in scholarly robes" remark.  I was told by a relative that I have a "disgust for higher education" which runs as a theme in my comments.  I answered:

Surprise - I agree with you completely (name). We must elevate the education of our society as a whole - that should always be our goal. Indeed, regarding the deep learning as you say - very precious few think deeply or critically it seems to me. My beef is not with education in or of itself. Not at all - I admire it and recognize that it is crucial to a productive society. What torques me is the pervasive self-appointment or anointment as an "intellectual" and therefore "my virtue is better than your vice" philosophy. The presumption of intellectual superiority and the arrogance that is associated with it is what gets me going. That is the thread or "theme" you should be picking up - not a disdain for higher learning. I would be a fool to have such disdain. But, education alone does not define intellectualism, hence my "scholarly robes" remark. Too many can not discern the difference. That arrogant superiority then translates to policy... which is a whole different matter.
For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

Offline andy58-in-nh

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In an earlier post on Facebook, I had used andy58-in-NH's "ignorance dressed in scholarly robes" remark.  I was told by a relative that I have a "disgust for higher education" which runs as a theme in my comments.  I answered:

Surprise - I agree with you completely (name). We must elevate the education of our society as a whole - that should always be our goal. Indeed, regarding the deep learning as you say - very precious few think deeply or critically it seems to me. My beef is not with education in or of itself. Not at all - I admire it and recognize that it is crucial to a productive society. What torques me is the pervasive self-appointment or anointment as an "intellectual" and therefore "my virtue is better than your vice" philosophy. The presumption of intellectual superiority and the arrogance that is associated with it is what gets me going. That is the thread or "theme" you should be picking up - not a disdain for higher learning. I would be a fool to have such disdain. But, education alone does not define intellectualism, hence my "scholarly robes" remark. Too many can not discern the difference. That arrogant superiority then translates to policy... which is a whole different matter.

Good answer. Your relative's error is in confusing process with output, and also: content with its container.

Much of what is today claimed as "education" is, in reality, the expression of a subjective point of view that intentionally filters or prejudges all contrary data rather than inviting them as a means of discerning truth.  A true "educator" does not purposely avoid or deny facts inhospitable to their world view, nor does he evade the counterarguments of another person by means of dishonesty or logical fallacy (e.g. - "I am an intellectual; if you disagree with me, you are, therefore anti-intellectual").

Adherence to a methodologically sound and intellectually honest educational process is what determines whether the output of that process is valid and empirically supportable, even in the face of differing interpretations of what is to be learned from it.

Reasonable people may yet disagree on many things. That they often do so does not make either party "anti-intellectual" (although one or both may in fact be wrong), as long as the argument is conducted on honest terms.

An "educator" may be said to be one who has earned that title by reference to common professional standards. But then, the mere title of "educator" cannot automatically command the respect of others regardless of one's ability and effort, nor does it ensure that the result (output) of those efforts is, in fact, "education".

If I pour tea into a coffee mug, the mug does not magically become a "tea mug", nor is what I drink from it mystically converted to coffee.


 
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline Rapunzel

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Gosh, Andy... once again I am so glad you are a member here, I am in awe of your posting...

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Gosh, Andy... once again I am so glad you are a member here, I am in awe of your posting...

Aw, shucks...
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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Gosh, Andy... once again I am so glad you are a member here, I am in awe of your posting...

Agreed.  Andy is a real gem.
For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

Offline evadRē

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The "cult of ignorance" today has as its center America's own colleges and universities.

The institutions that once served as the locii of learning and as repositories of human knowledge, culture, and experience have largely devolved into shallow pools of political correctness, ideological rigidity, and group-based resentments.

In lieu of an atmosphere in which learning may flourish, we now have stupefying speech codes, a near-universal hostility to Virtue that masquerades as "tolerance", and absurd parodies of instruction in manufactured "disciplines" absent of any objective value or meaning.

Ignorance dressed in scholarly robes is still ignorance, just as any pretense of intellectualism as informed by lock-step political conformity is yet profoundly anti-intellectual.

WOW!
I think Bernie LaPlante had it all figured out...
"And what you do in life like when you get older is, you pick the layer of bullshit that you prefer and that's your bullshit, so to speak"
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline Lando Lincoln

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For the progressive, there is very little to love about the United States. Washington, Jefferson, Madison? A bunch of rotten slaveholders, hypocrites, and cowards even when their hearts were in the right places. The Declaration of Independence? A manifesto for the propertied classes. The Constitution? An artifact of sexism and white supremacy. The sacrifices in the great wars of the 20th century? Feeding the poor and the disenfranchised into the meat-grinder of imperialism. The gifts of Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Morgan, Astor? Blood money from self-aggrandizing robber barons. Nat Rev

Offline AbaraXas

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One thing that has bothered me is the framing of this by the left as the war of intellectuals versus the right as though by its nature, the right is neither intellectual or educated.

Intellectuals fall into two main categories, thinkers and producers. When people go through advanced degrees of education, they have options as to how to use that education. Do they go out into the world and turn that education into a product or service or do they continue to stay within the academic world and make a career simply from producing and reproducing knowledge.

Up until about 75 or so years ago (WWII was probably the dividing line), a vast majority of those who could get advanced education had to take that eduction into the outside working world and make a living out of it. They had to study paths that were tangible because they had to then produce in order to pay for the education an make a living off of it.

Liberal arts studies were not something that most made a career of simply because they couldn't (with a few exceptions of course). Those paths were often left to either those who were of a certain means that they did not need to focus on what will give them an outside career to pay for their education and draw a salary.

After WWII, we saw a massive influx into universities due to the GI Bill and schools suddenly had to meet a great demand for students so they expanded more and more what degree offerings they had and the requirements for those offerings. Many of these returning soldiers had tangible skills they acquired in the military so they chose often one of the Liberal Arts paths.  During this time you saw a large increase in those with English degrees, for example. (not that there is anything wrong with an English Degree).

Then came Vietnam and we are still living with the product of that. Many millions chose to become professional students in order to avoid the draft. They continued their education as far as they could, with a virtual army of Liberal Arts PHDs coming out of the system every year. There weren't many places to go so they university system expanded in these areas and you have the birth of the modern intellectual subculture.

So when we refer to intellectualism, we are not degrading education or intelligence, but in the sub culture who have created a world of intellectualism for intellectualism sake- a self-eating snake which produces nothing but thrives by consuming on itself. Career intellectuals who become self-declared thinkers in all fields yet never produce in those fields.

Intellectualism is this sense, is the antithesis of creative intelligence. It produces nothing but itself. It requires little public acceptance of the product it creates. It simply says "I am an intellectual therefore I am worthy of your respect and pay".

::rant off::

Offline xfreeper

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Looks like an obvious reference to the low information voter to me
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:04:48 PM by xfreeper »

Offline xfreeper

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I don't know how he comes up with that but I don't care.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:20:15 PM by xfreeper »

Offline xfreeper

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someone not doing their job is different from me not doing something I'm not responsible for. I'm responsible for myself and to some degree, my kids. I'm not responsible for any dopie libs or low information voters. I have no interest in political proselytism at this point in my life. After seeing the changes in this country during my lifetime, I believe the cause is lost. The only hope as I see it is an armed rebellion and I know that, despite a lot of talk and bluster in some quarters, that will never happen. The pot is at full boil and the frog is long since dead
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 04:09:14 PM by xfreeper »

famousdayandyear

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someone not doing their job is different from me not doing something I'm not responsible for. I'm responsible for myself and to some degree, my kids. I'm not responsible for any dopie libs or low information voters. I have no interest in political proselytism at this point in my life. After seeing the changes in this country during my lifetime, I believe the cause is lost. The only hope as I see it is an armed rebellion and I know that, despite a lot of talk and bluster in some quarters, that will never happen. The pot is at full boil and the frog is long since dead

Agree.  A strong opposition contingent would have stopped all this scandal sh*t in its tracks.  Instead we get glorified wimps out to protect their miserable personal interests in saving their personal power interests.  Country is toast, unless there is a national strike to take place.


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