Author Topic: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason  (Read 3031 times)

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Offline mystery-ak

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Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« on: June 10, 2013, 10:50:28 AM »

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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 11:02:12 AM »
Of course he's a traitor.  At any time he could have gone to the IG of the Intelligence Committee or even to Mike Rogers himself if he had concerns.

I know, I know.  He wouldn't have gotten all the admiration from the conspiracy nuts, but he would not have violated the oath he took.

Otherwise, all these security analysts become laws unto themselves and they can take it upon themselves to release data whenever and to whomever they want.
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Offline evadR²

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 11:27:54 AM »
I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between what this guy did and Manning...aside from not being in the military.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 11:38:11 AM »
There's no difference. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 12:05:24 PM »
Wow...Bolton needs to calm down.   Because if Bolton really believes the crap that's coming out of his mouth ... then he's saying NO ONE knows better than the government and NO ONE has the right--under any circumstance--to be a whistleblower.

IMHO, it's logic like Bolton's that makes me fear for our country.

"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 12:08:28 PM »
Of course he's a traitor. 

That you Bolton???  (just kidding)

But, seriously ...  would you prefer it if no one shines a light on the rampant, criminal, anti-Constitutional activities of this regime?

Why not refer to him as whistleblower? 
"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 12:17:16 PM »
Wow...Bolton needs to calm down.   Because if Bolton really believes the crap that's coming out of his mouth ... then he's saying NO ONE knows better than the government and NO ONE has the right--under any circumstance--to be a whistleblower.

IMHO, it's logic like Bolton's that makes me fear for our country.

                                        :thumbsup:

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 12:18:05 PM »
Why not refer to him as whistleblower?

Just our gov't making sure that future whistleblowers know what their ultimate end will be...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 12:20:20 PM »
Just our gov't making sure that future whistleblowers know what their ultimate end will be...

How very Stalin and Saddam of them. 
"January 20th 2017 will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again."  --  President Donald J. Trump

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 12:29:25 PM »
How very Stalin and Saddam of them.

That's just the nature of gov't.  If not strictly controlled, it will take over everything.  The founders understood that and framed the Constitution with that in mind.

These days (given gov'ts constant repetition of the theme), people think of gov't as 'sugar daddy' giving them everything they want.

This is why our gov't is constantly at war against the Constitution and has been for 200+ years.




"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 12:37:50 PM »
Quote
"Number one, this man is a liar.   He took an oath to keep the secrets that were shared with him so he could do his job.  He said said he would not disclose them, and he lied.   Number two, he lied because he thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us.   This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299-million 999-thousand 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants.  I say that is the worst form of treason".

This is one of the worst forms of non-logic:  because he was a liar - post hoc - regarding the oaths he took, he must therefore be lying about everything now.  Prior bad acts are not generally allowed into criminal trials because they are generally unreliable indicators for whether the accused committed the crime charged; the same holds for his sort of specious argument.

Is this man a traitor?  Of course.  Then again, each and every one of the Founders was also a traitor and under then-prevailing English law should have been strung up by the neck until dead; particularly those who had served in the British military and had taken oaths to uphold the Crown - oaths which they then - post hoc - violated, making them, as per Mr. Bolton, liars as well as treasonous scoundrels.

Remember Franklin's ominous saying at the signing of the Declaration of Independence:  "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Sometimes you just have to say thank God for treason.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 12:55:30 PM »
That you Bolton???  (just kidding)

But, seriously ...  would you prefer it if no one shines a light on the rampant, criminal, anti-Constitutional activities of this regime?

Why not refer to him as whistleblower?

Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.

He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 01:01:03 PM »
Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.

He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison.

That all depends, and the only sure frame of reference for making overarching judgments is that of the comparatively objective future historian.  That he is guilty of treason and therefore subject to imprisonment under current law is a given - no one can seriously doubt that - but that fact is neither necessary nor sufficient to making a final judgment on his actions.  To use the language of just deserts is to make a judgment that cannot be made at this point in time.

To reiterate:  the Founders were also traitors and, under then-existing law, were liable to be strung up by the neck until dead.  Would you also say that they "deserved" to be strung up?  Would that have been the morally preferable result?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 01:03:10 PM »
This is one of the worst forms of non-logic:  because he was a liar - post hoc - regarding the oaths he took, he must therefore be lying about everything now.  Prior bad acts are not generally allowed into criminal trials because they are generally unreliable indicators for whether the accused committed the crime charged; the same holds for his sort of specious argument.

Is this man a traitor?  Of course.  Then again, each and every one of the Founders was also a traitor and under then-prevailing English law should have been strung up by the neck until dead; particularly those who had served in the British military and had taken oaths to uphold the Crown - oaths which they then - post hoc - violated, making them, as per Mr. Bolton, liars as well as treasonous scoundrels.

Remember Franklin's ominous saying at the signing of the Declaration of Independence:  "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Sometimes you just have to say thank God for treason.

By all means.  Let every NSA analyst release whatever data he/she chooses to release.  You fine with that?
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 01:04:44 PM »
That all depends, and the only sure frame of reference for making overarching judgments is that of the comparatively objective future historian.  That he is guilty of treason and therefore subject to imprisonment under current law is a given - no one can seriously doubt that - but that fact is neither necessary nor sufficient to making a final judgment on his actions.  To use the language of just deserts is to make a judgment that cannot be made at this point in time.

To reiterate:  the Founders were also traitors and, under then-existing law, were liable to be strung up by the neck until dead.  Would you also say that they "deserved" to be strung up?  Would that have been the morally preferable result?

Comparing this pasty-faced jerk to the Founding Fathers is a moral equivalency you cannot make with a straight face.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 01:05:22 PM »
By all means.  Let every NSA analyst release whatever data he/she chooses to release.  You fine with that?

Now you're simply trying to dodge the argument altogether.  Riddle me this:  if I call someone a liar because - as I allege - his actions today have suddenly converted things he said years ago into lies, does that have any bearing on whether something that person says today is also a lie?

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 01:06:15 PM »
He compromised security when he reported that our government is spying on its own citizens - including every last one of us - for no reason that had anything to do with combating terrorism. Got it.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 01:08:36 PM »
He compromised security when he reported that our government is spying on its own citizens - including every last one of us - for no reason that had anything to do with combating terrorism. Got it.

He did compromise security - let's be honest about it - the only question is whether that compromise was, on balance, a good thing to do.  Only time will tell, although my personal view is that, on balance, the damage was justified because the spying was, and is, not.

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2013, 01:11:03 PM »
There are situations in which we should not want anyone to reveal certain secrets. The question is whether this is one of them.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 01:14:15 PM »
There are situations in which we should not want anyone to reveal certain secrets. The question is whether this is one of them.

Agreed.  And there are other situations in which we would want someone to reveal certain secrets.  The question is also whether this is one of them.

There is also another unasked question floating around:  does it really matter?  Does anyone seriously believe that America's enemies were blythely unaware that the US government might be trying to obtain their communications, from whatever sources there are, and by whatever means possible?  Other than some dunces and wannabes who have just cancelled their Verizon services, does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were blatantly and obviously communicating with each other over Verizon's assets?

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 01:22:36 PM »
Now you're simply trying to dodge the argument altogether.  Riddle me this:  if I call someone a liar because - as I allege - his actions today have suddenly converted things he said years ago into lies, does that have any bearing on whether something that person says today is also a lie?

Let every man be a law unto himself.  Oaths mean nothing if I believe I am honoring a higher cause.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2013, 01:22:47 PM »
Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.  He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison. 

No one is saying nothing is classified, least of all me.  But I think the collection of data from every American ... via phone, internet, social networks without permission or reason begs for a whistleblower. 

Thank heavens you weren't around during the American Revolution.  I'm sure your didactic, rigid judgment of "years and years in prison for compromised security" would have made King George III blush with pride.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2013, 01:24:32 PM »
Let every man be a law unto himself.  Oaths mean nothing if I believe I am honoring a higher cause.

You're still dodging the question.  Stop being a hypocrite and answer the question, which I will state even more simply:  if I do something today that is inconsistent with an oath I took ten years ago, does that mean that my oath, when originally taken, was a lie?

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 01:26:32 PM »
Other than some dunces and wannabes who have just cancelled their Verizon services, does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were blatantly and obviously communicating with each other over Verizon's assets?
Apparently, it's not just Verizon. It's all telephone services.   :thud:
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 01:35:44 PM »
Apparently, it's not just Verizon. It's all telephone services.   :thud:

The point still stands:  does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were communicating in the open via telephone or internet?  And as far as identifying patterns via the so-called "metadata" of endpoint detection - i.e., the start and end points of a particular communication - that can be fairly well concealed by those who really care by using the TOR network. 

the website for the TOR project is here:  https://www.torproject.org/  I would recommend that people go read up about it a bit and then decide whether gathering everyone's phone records and emails, even if only to connect endpoints together, would really help identify hardcore terrorists.  Keep in mind, as someone from the TOR project once told me:  US forces, including undercover agents, use the TOR network to communicate sensitive intelligence back to home base, which suggests that the TOR network is a fairly robust system that generally cannot be penetrated to identify the end points of any particular communication.

Real terrorists, the ones whom the government should be trying to identify, use something like the TOR network if they communicate online; they do not use gmail.


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