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General Category => National News/Current Events => Topic started by: Cincinnatus on December 09, 2013, 05:04:30 PM

Title: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Cincinnatus on December 09, 2013, 05:04:30 PM
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: GourmetDan on December 09, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
Orders? He orders this individual to do what he has chosen not to do? What kind of country are we living in?

Forcing someone to violate their moral standards is not discriminatory, however.

How I loathe these people.


Businesses are going to have to learn to start giving really crappy product/service instead of objecting directly.

Oops...   :whistle:


Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: truth_seeker on December 09, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?

Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Chieftain on December 09, 2013, 05:28:20 PM
Orders? He orders this individual to do what he has chosen not to do? What kind of country are we living in?

Forcing someone to violate their moral standards is not discriminatory, however.

How I loathe these people.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/12/06/judge-orders-colorado-cake-maker-to-serve-gay-couples/

I agree...the founders would be astonished that any of this is taking place in the country they founded.  Franklin would be saying "I told you so!!"

Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: jmyrlefuller on December 09, 2013, 05:45:13 PM
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?
Well, for one, you can't choose your skin color. Partnering with someone is a choice in itself.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: truth_seeker on December 09, 2013, 05:59:14 PM
Well, for one, you can't choose your skin color. Partnering with someone is a choice in itself.
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: LambChop on December 09, 2013, 06:21:22 PM
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

Or baptism?  We may be the majority now, but in the not so far future? 
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: mountaineer on December 09, 2013, 06:23:53 PM
The countdown begins to when one of these "civil rights" commissions orders a Christian church to accomodate homosexuals' "wedding" ceremony. The First Amendment will not matter. Gay rights trump the Constitution.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Atomic Cow on December 09, 2013, 06:28:58 PM
The countdown begins to when one of these "civil rights" commissions orders a Christian church to accomodate homosexuals' "wedding" ceremony. The First Amendment will not matter. Gay rights trump the Constitution.

The end game has always been the outlawing of Christianity.  The left doesn't care about the bleep.  They're a means to an end.  Once the Christians are gone, the left will turn on the bleep like rabid dogs.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Cincinnatus on December 09, 2013, 06:33:39 PM
How is the baker case different, than a small retailer saying no to blacks who want to shop at his store?...What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

The difference is freedom. If I choose not to employ my labor and materials for whatever reason in a world that is truly free that is my right regardless of what you and administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer may feel about it. Just who are you and he to tell me I must do otherwise?

In addition, however, this case and others sprouting about involve freedom of conscience, a right at the very least implied in the 1st Amendment. Where are "homosexual rights" found in the Constitution and from whence arises the power that you and this judge have to order me to violate my own principles?
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Millee on December 09, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

What if he did??? 

Does a Jewish baker have to make a Adolph Hitler cake???  Does a gay baker have to bake a cake for the Westborough Baptist Church??? 

This baker in CO doesn't make Halloween themed cakes either, but he will make Fall themed ones.  Should the Wiccans be able to sue him and force him to?  Where does it end???
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: EC on December 09, 2013, 06:38:30 PM
The end game has always been the outlawing of Christianity.  The left doesn't care about the bleep.  They're a means to an end.  Once the Christians are gone, the left will turn on the bleep like rabid dogs.

They already do.

I have a fair number of homosexual friends and acquaintances. A few transgender friends. (Big deal, I'm also friends with strippers, prostitutes, and body builders). We keep in touch in person, by email and on facebook. By far the worst insults, slurs and vitriol they get that I have seen are from the left.

Fag and gay are go to insults for youths - not exactly welcoming, is it?
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: GourmetDan on December 09, 2013, 09:56:49 PM
Does a gay baker have to bake a cake for the Westborough Baptist Church??? 

Of course they do, but I certainly wouldn't eat it.  Which gets back to my original point above.

You can bet the lefties would do it... and laugh about it...


Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Oceander on December 09, 2013, 10:03:50 PM
There is a very, very simple solution to this:  the baker and his family should vote with their feet by closing up shop, selling the house, and moving to a state where they'll be respected.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: GourmetDan on December 09, 2013, 10:06:19 PM
There is a very, very simple solution to this:  the baker and his family should vote with their feet by closing up shop, selling the house, and moving to a state where they'll be respected.

Actually, the same could be said for the gay couple...


Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Oceander on December 09, 2013, 10:07:20 PM
Actually, the same could be said for the gay couple...




Of course, but the gay couple isn't on the wrong end of the regulatory gun.  The comparison is inapposite.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: GourmetDan on December 09, 2013, 10:15:18 PM
Of course, but the gay couple isn't on the wrong end of the regulatory gun.  The comparison is inapposite.

Yes, and slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted that...


Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Oceander on December 09, 2013, 10:22:04 PM
Yes, and slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted that...




You don't get it, do you.  The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

The comparison to slavery is particularly egregious.  A slave had no choice but to serve; a slave was not free to quit, enter a new line of business, or move to a different state.

So, since Colorado is enforcing a rule it has sufficient power to enforce - even if the rule is stupid and objectionable - the baker has two choices:  buckle down and follow the law, or move to a more inviting community.  That, or he could just pay the fines.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: ABX on December 09, 2013, 10:30:49 PM
Then I'll use a different example. How about discriminating based on religion?

What if a baker said no, to a Jewish holiday cake?

He can say he doesn't have the skill to create a specific pattern nor stock the decoration for XYZ holiday.  He may not have a Steve and Steve wedding cake topper. Does this now mean he is forced to carry a product he doesn't normally carry?  Should he be required to purchase and offer for sale this cake topper in order to meet the 'order'?

(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/7/1/7/1/4/5/webimg/427749541_tp.jpg)
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: GourmetDan on December 09, 2013, 10:32:25 PM
You don't get it, do you.  The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

The comparison to slavery is particularly egregious.  A slave had no choice but to serve; a slave was not free to quit, enter a new line of business, or move to a different state.

So, since Colorado is enforcing a rule it has sufficient power to enforce - even if the rule is stupid and objectionable - the baker has two choices:  buckle down and follow the law, or move to a more inviting community.  That, or he could just pay the fines.

No you don't get it.  The fact of the matter is that, using your own argument, slavery was once legal and abolitionists should have just accepted it.

Clearly you can rationalize anything, but that's no big deal.  Anybody can rationalize anything, and often do just that...


Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Cincinnatus on December 10, 2013, 12:29:09 AM
Well, let's see. According to Ocander:

The fact of the matter is this:  a state government has all the power it needs to pass, and enforce, laws of this sort.  Such a law violates no provision of the US Constitution.  Or are we now going to toss aside those states' rights principles we've been insisting on?

I wonder how he squares that with the Constitution of the State of Colorado, Article II, section 4.

Quote
Section 4. Religious freedom. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination, shall forever hereafter be guaranteed; and no person shall be denied any civil or political right, privilege or capacity, on account of his opinions concerning religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be construed to dispense with oaths or affirmations, excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the good order, peace or safety of the state. No person shall be required to attend or support any ministry or place of worship, religious sect or denomination against his consent. Nor shall any preference be given by law to any religious denomination or mode of worship.


Or maybe Article II, section 3:

Quote
Section 3. Inalienable rights. All persons have certain natural, essential and inalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; of acquiring, possessing and protecting property; and of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness

http://law.justia.com/constitution/colorado/cnart2.html

Yep, no doubt about it. Homosexual demands trump both the United States' Constitution and the Constitution of the State of Colorado.
Title: Re: Judge Orders Colorado Cake Maker To Serve Gay Couples
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on December 10, 2013, 12:43:33 AM
So, if an atheist baker refuses to sell a cake for a Jewish wedding, is that religious discrimination?