The Briefing Room

General Category => Politics => Topic started by: mystery-ak on February 07, 2020, 04:12:05 PM

Title: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 07, 2020, 04:12:05 PM
Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House
By Morgan Chalfant - 02/07/20 04:06 PM EST

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman was escorted out of the White House on Friday and told to leave his position at the National Security Council, according to a statement released by his attorney.

Vindman was one of the key witnesses who testified in connection with the House impeachment inquiry about President Trump’s phone call with the Ukrainian president during which Trump raised investigations of former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden's dealings in Ukraine.

When asked for comment Friday, National Security Council spokesman John Ullyot said the NSC does not comment on personnel matters.

– Developing

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482076-impeachment-witness-alexander-vindman-escorted-from-white-house
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: catfish1957 on February 07, 2020, 04:15:23 PM
Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House
By Morgan Chalfant - 02/07/20 04:06 PM EST



Hope they got a good film of this walk of shame.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 07, 2020, 04:17:36 PM
Esper says 'Pentagon protects its service members from retribution' amid reports of possible Vindman ouster
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/482073-esper-says-pentagon-protects-its-service-members-from-retribution-amid-reports
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: bilo on February 07, 2020, 04:22:22 PM
Esper says 'Pentagon protects its service members from retribution' amid reports of possible Vindman ouster
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/482073-esper-says-pentagon-protects-its-service-members-from-retribution-amid-reports

Protecting and allowing further undermining of a duly elected administration are two different things. I'm sure there's a monitoring post he can be assigned to in the middle of nowhere.

I hope Trump cleans house and in the future only allows a few people of good character to be close to any conversations with foreign heads of state.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: DCPatriot on February 07, 2020, 04:25:23 PM
LOL!  The Daily Wire has the story that the twin brother 'Eugene' also left the White House with him.

...then farther down on the page:   "Coming up next!...President Trump gets rid of two more terrorists!"



...maybe you had to be there.   :bolt:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 07, 2020, 04:25:27 PM
Esper says 'Pentagon protects its service members from retribution' amid reports of possible Vindman ouster
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/482073-esper-says-pentagon-protects-its-service-members-from-retribution-amid-reports

Protect my @$$! They SHOULD be court martialing that SOB!
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: truth_seeker on February 07, 2020, 04:26:09 PM
Hope they got a good film of this walk of shame.

He has an identical twin brother.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: 240B on February 07, 2020, 04:26:14 PM
That means he has lost his security clearance.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 07, 2020, 04:27:22 PM
Protecting and allowing further undermining of a duly elected administration are two different things. I'm sure there's a monitoring post he can be assigned to in the middle of nowhere.

I hope Trump cleans house and in the future only allows a few people of good character to be close to any conversations with foreign heads of state.

I here there is such an opening at Thule Greenland!
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: skeeter on February 07, 2020, 04:28:02 PM
Esper says 'Pentagon protects its service members from retribution' amid reports of possible Vindman ouster
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/482073-esper-says-pentagon-protects-its-service-members-from-retribution-amid-reports

Then there should never be retribution for speaking out against your superiors while in uniform.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: catfish1957 on February 07, 2020, 04:29:09 PM
Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House


Doesn't have DOD have specific guidelines and / or rules around military taking part in blatant political activities?
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 07, 2020, 04:31:46 PM
LOL!  The Daily Wire has the story that the twin brother 'Eugene' also left the White House with him.

...then farther down on the page:   "Coming up next!...President Trump gets rid of two more terrorists!"



...maybe you had to be there.   :bolt:

BREAKING: Alexander Vindman Fired, Escorted From White House, Brother Goes With Him, Report Says (https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-alexander-vindman-fired-escorted-from-white-house-brother-goes-with-him-report-says)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: bilo on February 07, 2020, 04:33:03 PM
I here there is such an opening at Thule Greenland!

Perfect!

Send all of them there, bring in a new group and check their backgrounds before doing so.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: berdie on February 07, 2020, 04:49:11 PM
That made me lol. That's what should have happened.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 07, 2020, 05:16:22 PM
Protect my @$$! They SHOULD be court martialing that SOB!

I imagine what will happen is he'll be given some kind of desk job either as the special projects officer to a General or inside a windowless office at the Pentagon while his 4187 request for voluntary retirement and his last OER are written...then he will retire...probably at the monthly retirement ceremony at Ft. Myer and bide his time as a civilian until CNN or MSNBC comes calling with job offer.

SecArmy can say all he wants to about protecting our own...but you don't recover from getting fired by the President and escorted from the building.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 07, 2020, 05:44:12 PM
He has an identical twin brother.

There is also an older brother, Leonid, who runs an investment/consulting company that specializes in projects in "Central Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus and Central Asia region."  http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html (http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html)

Presumably, that would include Ukraine and there were several Ukraine investment round-tables moderated by the older Vindman.  Is there anyone connected with the Neocon/Clinton/Obama machine in any way that doesn't have their greedy hands in the corrupt sewers of Russia and Ukraine?   John Bolton was paid $115K for a speech by Ukranian oligarch and huge Clinton Foundation donor Victor Pinchuk.   Romney's "special advisor" in his 2012 campaign,  Cofer Black, joined Hunter Biden on the Burisma board in 2017.   

It just reeks. 
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 07, 2020, 05:49:07 PM
There is also an older brother, Leonid, who runs an investment/consulting company that specializes in projects in "Central Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus and Central Asia region."  http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html (http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html)

Presumably, that would include Ukraine and there were several Ukraine investment round-tables moderated by the older Vindman.  Is there anyone connected with the Neocon/Clinton/Obama machine in any way that doesn't have their greedy hands in the corrupt sewers of Russia and Ukraine?   John Bolton was paid $115K for a speech by Ukranian oligarch and huge Clinton Foundation donor Victor Pinchuk.   Romney's "special advisor" in his 2012 campaign,  Cofer Black, joined Hunter Biden on the Burisma board in 2017.   

It just reeks.

Make time to watch this @ArneFufkin Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCSwqca8KXU&feature=youtu.be#)

It's really good and fully shells down the corn.  (You can skip the first 3 minutes or so.)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 07, 2020, 05:50:50 PM
Make time to watch this @ArneFufkin Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCSwqca8KXU&feature=youtu.be#)

It's really good and fully shells down the corn.  (You can skip the first 3 minutes or so.)

Thank you, will do!
Title: Impeachment witness Vindman fired, escorted out of White House after Trump acquittal
Post by: EdinVA on February 07, 2020, 06:00:40 PM
Quote
Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-deciding-considering-plan-to-dismiss-aide-who-testified-against-trump), who made waves as a witness during the Trump impeachment proceedings, (https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry) was fired Friday by the National Security Council and escorted off of the White House grounds, Fox News has confirmed.
Vindman was on detail to the National Security Council from the Department of Defense, and it is expected he will return there. It comes just two days after President Trump was acquitted in the Senate on the impeachment charges brought by the House last year over his dealings with Ukraine.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vindman-to-leave-nsc-after-trump-acquittal (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/vindman-to-leave-nsc-after-trump-acquittal)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Fishrrman on February 07, 2020, 08:47:34 PM
Adieu, Alexander.
Be seein' ya...!
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on February 07, 2020, 08:57:42 PM
Draining the swamp, one bucketful of sh__ at a time.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: PeteS in CA on February 07, 2020, 09:09:20 PM
Good riddance, Part 1. Betrayed trust, disobeyed orders.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 07, 2020, 11:29:02 PM
Do we have any current or former JAG officers onboard who might inform us about how a Court Martial proceeding gets off the ground @mystery-ak
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 10:30:51 AM
Trump defends Vindman ouster, calls him 'very insubordinate'
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482159-trump-vindman-was-very-insubordinate-so-now-hes-out
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 10:31:31 AM
Trump Jr. thanks Schiff for 'unearthing who all needed to be fired'
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482157-trump-jr-thanks-schiff-for-unearthing-who-all-needed-to-be-fired
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 10:37:19 AM
Trump defends Vindman ouster, calls him 'very insubordinate'
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/482159-trump-vindman-was-very-insubordinate-so-now-hes-out

And the court-martial picture becomes even more clear now!

Conduct unbecoming, dereliction of duty...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 11:03:54 AM
February 8, 2020
Trump dismisses Alexander Vindman, Yevgeny Vindman, and Gordon Sondland
By Andrea Widburg

ABBA's song "The Winner Takes It All" seems peculiarly appropriate for today's news: "The winner takes it all, The loser's standing small, Beside the victory, That's [his] destiny."

In this case, the winner was President Donald Trump, who emerged victorious from the Democrats' ill begotten impeachment debacle.  The losers left standing small — and destined to be removed from their positions — were Alexander  Vindman and his twin brother Yevgeny, both of whom are out at the National Security Council, and ambassador (now former ambassador) to the European Union Gordon Sondland.

In normal times, dismissing these men from their positions would make perfect sense.  All three serve at the president's pleasure.  Under the Constitution, Trump is responsible for foreign policy and is commander in chief.  In the former role, he has wide latitude to choose and dismiss ambassadors.  In the latter role, thousands of years of military tradition hold that officers can be dismissed — or worse — for insubordination.

Sondland came across as merely weak, but Alexander Vindman is a genuine piece of work.  The fact that his commanding officer has a constitutional right (and duty) to set foreign policy did not weigh at all with him.  He felt that, as a decorated bureaucrat, his opinion matter more.

When the president ignored Vindman's opinion, the latter violated national security to complain about Trump's chosen policy approach.  (And note, please, that he did not protect himself by being an official whistleblower.  Instead, he whined to someone else.)  Then, when called before Congress, the man who wears a suit to work showed up in his uniform, evidently trying to put the military's imprimatur on his personal mutiny.

more
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/02/trump_dismisses_alexander_vindman_yevgeny_vindman_and_gordon_sondland.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/02/trump_dismisses_alexander_vindman_yevgeny_vindman_and_gordon_sondland.html)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on February 08, 2020, 11:20:45 AM
Quote
Donald J. Trump
✔  @realDonaldTrump


Fake News @CNN & MSDNC keep talking about “Lt. Col.” Vindman as though I should think only how wonderful he was. Actually, I don’t know him, never spoke to him, or met him (I don’t believe!) but, he was very insubordinate, reported contents of my “perfect” calls incorrectly, &...

....was given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information. In other words, “OUT”.

 
6:41 AM - Feb 8, 2020
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 11:44:07 AM
Court-martial in 3, 2, 1,...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 12:27:49 PM
Esper says 'Pentagon protects its service members from retribution' amid reports of possible Vindman ouster
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/482073-esper-says-pentagon-protects-its-service-members-from-retribution-amid-reports

@mystery-ak

I sincerely hope the brothers are NOT allowed to retire with their benefits. They should just be released from duty,not retired.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 12:29:37 PM
That means he has lost his security clearance.

@240B

Let's hope. That used to be SOP,but the Pentegram is now loaded with Clinton and Obomber appointees.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 01:01:26 PM
Do we have any current or former JAG officers onboard who might inform us about how a Court Martial proceeding gets off the ground @mystery-ak

Ya know we used to or may still have but I sure can't remember who it is...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 01:03:24 PM
Ya know we used to or may still have but I sure can't remember who it is...

OK! Thanks.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
I'd like to see Trump do something overt and public to reassign/fire Eric Ciaramella and watch the Dems struggle to viscerally react without admitting he was the "whistleblower".
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 03:56:11 PM
Donald Trump attacks 'very insubordinate' impeachment witness Lt. Col Alexander Vindman after kicking him out of the White House, puts his Army rank in quotes and says he was given 'horrendous' reports from superiors
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7981561/Donald-Trump-defends-firing-impeachment-inquiry-witness-Alexander-Vindman.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7981561/Donald-Trump-defends-firing-impeachment-inquiry-witness-Alexander-Vindman.html)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: DCPatriot on February 08, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
I'd like to see Trump do something overt and public to reassign/fire Eric Ciaramella and watch the Dems struggle to viscerally react without admitting he was the "whistleblower".

I'll see that and raise you one immediate federal investigation into Hillary Clinton and her Foundation...her daughter being no different than Hunter Biden, in that she wasn't worth what she was earning....BEFORE she declares as a candidate for POTUS.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 04:26:58 PM
Donald Trump attacks 'very insubordinate' impeachment witness Lt. Col Alexander Vindman after kicking him out of the White House, puts his Army rank in quotes and says he was given 'horrendous' reports from superiors
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7981561/Donald-Trump-defends-firing-impeachment-inquiry-witness-Alexander-Vindman.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7981561/Donald-Trump-defends-firing-impeachment-inquiry-witness-Alexander-Vindman.html)

Trump never should have spoken of Vindman’s efficiency reports. Those are highly confidential documents.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 08, 2020, 04:31:30 PM
Trump never should have spoken of Vindman’s efficiency reports. Those are highly confidential documents.
Yes.. but he was trying to dispel the liberal speak  "revenge"...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 04:39:56 PM
Trump never should have spoken of Vindman’s efficiency reports. Those are highly confidential documents.

Yeah...I noticed that too...all those files are private
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: truth_seeker on February 08, 2020, 05:01:39 PM
I see. In democrat and TDS terms, the CIC takes  a back seat, to whom and to what regs, in the chain of command?

I just one LTC Alex Vindman, why not a thousand?

Oh wait, there might be.



Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on February 08, 2020, 05:14:24 PM
Yeah...I noticed that too...all those files are private

Here's what the President said @mystery-ak   ... He's quoting statements made in the public arena:

Quote
Donald J. Trump
✔  @realDonaldTrump

Fake News @CNN & MSDNC keep talking about “Lt. Col.” Vindman as though I should think only how wonderful he was. Actually, I don’t know him, never spoke to him, or met him (I don’t believe!) but, he was very insubordinate, reported contents of my “perfect” calls incorrectly, &...

....was given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information. In other words, “OUT”.

 
6:41 AM - Feb 8, 2020
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: DCPatriot on February 08, 2020, 05:19:15 PM
Hmmm...always thought ANYBODY working inside the White House does so, at the whim of the POTUS.

How could the CIC, CEO of the United States not have control of who punches in and out everyday?

And with the acquittal, how in the hell are the Vindemans not National Security risks?  Conspirators in a treasonous coup to overthrow the President?

In HIS own house??

GTFO!!!    :smokin:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 05:58:12 PM
Yes.. but he was trying to dispel the liberal speak  "revenge"...

Then he failed.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 06:22:09 PM
Trump never should have spoken of Vindman’s efficiency reports. Those are highly confidential documents.

@Night Hides Not

Trump had no choice. It was either that,or have to listen to the left/media whine about how he fired a war hero with an unblemished record.

I have already seen him described as a "decorated hero of the VN war",when the truth is the SOB never heard a shot fired.

He got his Purple Heart for being a passanger in a vehicle that hit a roadside bomb,and that is also almost certainly when he got his illegal CIB. To EARN a CIB the regulations require you to "be fired on by an enemy force,and RETURN fire".

Even if you want to fudge the "fired on" requirement by equating a roadside bomb to combat,he still didn't return fire.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Yeah...I noticed that too...all those files are private

@mystery-ak

They have been published and talked about in several media outlets. It was already out there before Trump said anything.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: DCPatriot on February 08, 2020, 06:29:56 PM
@mystery-ak

They have been published and talked about in several media outlets. It was already out there before Trump said anything.

As the POTUS, he is held to the highest standard.

He probably should have just alluded to the negative record as not being covered in the media and let it go at that. 

He's still batting .750
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 06:33:04 PM
As the POTUS, he is held to the highest standard.

He probably should have just alluded to the negative record as not being covered in the media and let it go at that. 

He's still batting .750

Spot on. The only objection I have with Trump on this was discussing an officer’s efficiency report.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 06:39:52 PM
Trump never should have spoken of Vindman’s efficiency reports. Those are highly confidential documents.

@Night Hides Not Can you point out for me when the President ever mentioned any specific document in that tweet?  it seems pretty damned generic to me.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 06:41:47 PM
Spot on. The only objection I have with Trump on this was discussing an officer’s efficiency report.

@Night Hides Not

You seriously expected him to stay silent while being hammered by the left,the RINO's,the press,and the Dims as "slandiing a officer with a flawless record who is a combat hero!"

If so,you must be one of those Republicans that like losing.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 06:45:33 PM
As the POTUS, he is held to the highest standard.

He probably should have just alluded to the negative record as not being covered in the media and let it go at that. 

He's still batting .750

Which is exactly what he did it seems to me. I can't find any reference to a specific document of any kind in what he said.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Fishrrman on February 08, 2020, 07:02:51 PM
Pete sneakily observed:
"If so,you must be one of those Republicans that like losing."

Indeed. Seem to be a gaggle of 'em, right here in this forum!
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
Yes.. but he was trying to dispel the liberal speak  "revenge"...

Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 08, 2020, 07:33:46 PM
@240B

Let's hope. That used to be SOP,but the Pentegram is now loaded with Clinton and Obomber appointees.
Seems to me, keeping your mouth shut was part of that whole 'security' thingy.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 07:43:11 PM
Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.

Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 07:50:12 PM
Doesn’t matter. There’s FOIA and 1974 Privact Act violations associated with what he just did by talking about those.

Not cool at all.

Perhaps you can answer the question I previously asked @Night Hides Not @txradioguy

Can you point out to me the mention of ANY specific document in what the president said?  I cannot find that for the life of me.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 08, 2020, 07:52:50 PM
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...
True enough, but it was seared into the popular fable that he was in Cambodia....

Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 08, 2020, 08:31:02 PM
Perhaps you can answer the question I previously asked @Night Hides Not @txradioguy

Can you point out to me the mention of ANY specific document in what the president said?  I cannot find that for the life of me.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1226154003551178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-slams-very-insubordinate-vindman-day-after-ouster-from-white-house (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1226154003551178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-slams-very-insubordinate-vindman-day-after-ouster-from-white-house)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 08:32:53 PM
Perhaps you can answer the question I previously asked @Night Hides Not @txradioguy

Can you point out to me the mention of ANY specific document in what the president said?  I cannot find that for the life of me.

@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 08:34:36 PM
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...

Or how about the fact that all of his awards are dated and signed by officials who were in positions in the DoD after Carter gave blanket amnesty for the Vietnam War protesters and deserters?
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Maj. Bill Martin on February 08, 2020, 08:35:07 PM
Bottom line is that he worked in the White House, and if the President no longer trusts either his judgment or discretion, he cannot be effective in his job.  This has to be one of those things where the President has absolute authority to discharge someone.  And I'm guessing that any law that tried to prevent him from firing Vindeman likely would be declared unconstitutional.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 08, 2020, 08:37:27 PM
@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.
You are, of course, right. It isn't right to release information (leak) from the bully pulpit of the POTUS any more than it was right for Vindman to do so. He serves in the White House at the discretion of the POTUS, and that alone should be sufficient cause for removal. Let the Democrats whine all they want. He never claimed 'whistleblower' status, he just leaked.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 08, 2020, 08:47:37 PM
Yep...Mike and I talked about this at dinner and said the same thing...have we ever seen John Kerry's file on his Purple Hearts...NO...

@mystery-ak

Yes,and no. The awards and the details were posted on FR years ago.For example,we know at least two of the wounds didn't even need stitches. They quit bleeding on their own. We also know he  wrote himself up for them.

Here is the deal. Kerry volunteered for VN so he could get "war hero pt boat" creds like his idol,JFK. At the time he volunteered to go to VN,the boats were patrolling off-shore,stopping and searching VN fishing boats. Pretty safe duty because your boat has multiple heavy weapons and some armor plating,and you are facing off with an unarmed wooden fishing boat.

By the time he got to VN the focus had shifted to smaller boats patrolling the river systems,and getting shot at from NVA hiding along the river banks. MUCH riskier duty,and he wanted no part of it. The rules at that time was any soldier,sailor,or airman that got wounded 3 times automatically got orders to be transferred back to the US,unless they protested the transfer.

So John Wayne Kerry got "wounded" 3 times in maybe 3 months,and none of the wounds required hospitalization. At least two of them
scabbed over and quit bleeding on their own.

He also wrote himself up for the SS while serving as acting CO of the squadron while the actual CO was on leave. With his political
connections with the Brass via the Kennedy family,this wasn't questioned and he got the award as well as a transfer back to the
US as a "3 times wounded hero". Even though there seems to have been no witnesses or official records of the battles.

He comes back to the US and serves out his obligation by using HIS own private plane to fly an Admiral around to staff meetings,and
when he gets out of the Navy he joins the Peace Movement as a wounded hero who is anti-war. At one protest he was filmed throwing
"his medals" over the WH fence. Turns out they were medals he bought at a pawn shop,which actually makes them worth about as much as
the ones he "bought" with political influence. We know this because after he became a US Senator his medals and the awards were hung on his
office wall.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 08:52:42 PM
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1226154003551178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-slams-very-insubordinate-vindman-day-after-ouster-from-white-house (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1226154003551178752?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftrump-slams-very-insubordinate-vindman-day-after-ouster-from-white-house)

I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:

Quote
...given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 08:55:33 PM
I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:

I've read the quotes from the LTC that reprimanded him during an exercise in Germany.  That's different than referring to his performance evaluations.  The rebuke given to Vindman about his comments to some Russian and Ukranian soldiers that degraded his fellow soldiers is different than what Trump is hinting at in his comments today.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 08, 2020, 09:06:03 PM
I could be wrong here @EdinVA @txradioguy but MY reading of that is that the president is refering to the public statements of Vindman's CO and NOT any paper performance report which, I VERY much doubt, the president has seen.

Here is the relevant language:
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.
Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 09:09:42 PM
@Night Hides Not Can you point out for me when the President ever mentioned any specific document in that tweet?  it seems pretty damned generic to me.

Quote
Actually, I don’t know him, never spoke to him, or met him (I don’t believe!) but, he was very insubordinate, reported contents of my “perfect” calls incorrectly, & was given a horrendous report by his superior, the man he reported to, who publicly stated that Vindman had problems with judgement, adhering to the chain of command and leaking information,' he continued.

Seems a little more than just generic to me. To use an adjective like "horrendous", Trump either was talking out of his rear, or he saw the report.

Whoever Vindman's superior is/was, he's in the wrong, too.

I can see where others have a different interpretation than mine. I just think it's bad form to discuss an officer's efficiency reports in public. LTC Vindman needs to retire and get the hell out of Dodge. He'll probably make big bucks as a "national security analyst" for CNN or MSNBC.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 09:16:54 PM
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.

"Normal circumstances" or not the standard is the same.  Anything else is just making excuses for bad behavior.


Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.[/quote]

In your mind maybe...in realty and what the law defines as "treason" no he didn't do that.  There are other laws that cover what he did and as I said before it's inexcusable...but that doesn't make the President doing it justifiable.  If anything Trump should set a BETTER example than the people that work for him.


Quote
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.

You and the rest of the pitchfork and torches crowd won't get your pound of flesh.  What I laid out earlier in this thread about how they will treat him is the most likely course of action for what they will do with him and his brother.

Sorry...but that's just the reality of how the military works.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 09:16:56 PM
@Bigun @txradioguy
I absolutely understand txradioguy and under "normal" circumstances, agree.
Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.
But I am no lawyer and I just hope these guy are held accountable and if the only accountability I can get is a public thrashing, then I will take it.

OK @EdinVA Again, I very much doubt that the president has seen even one official (U.S. Army) report of any kind relating to Colonel Vindman but I do agree with you otherwise. 

IMHO the SOB should be, at minimum,  Court Martialed under Article 81 UCMJ which reads:


Quote
Text of statute. Any person subject to this chapter who conspires with any other person to commit an offense under this chapter shall if one or more of the conspirators does an act to effect the object of the conspiracy, be punished as a court-martial may direct.

It is VERY clear to me.

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84917673_10216399430760316_5541015537103929344_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQkyRgGGlHajYKkqRzZEL3qH-fRuYmLii41xQlhak7HDsG7qJhtHzWjuZmXj4z4BRbw&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=201e74fd603a6d6967d1bcabab4922f1&oe=5ED22DF9)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 09:18:44 PM
Seems a little more than just generic to me. To use an adjective like "horrendous", Trump either was talking out of his rear, or he saw the report.

Whoever Vindman's superior is/was, he's in the wrong, too.

If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 09:20:12 PM
OK @EdinVA Again, I very much doubt that the president has seen even one official (U.S. Army) report of any kind relating to Colonel Vindman but I do agree with you otherwise. 

IMHO the SOB should be Court Martialed under Article 81 UCMJ which reads:


It is VERY clear to me.

(https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84917673_10216399430760316_5541015537103929344_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQkyRgGGlHajYKkqRzZEL3qH-fRuYmLii41xQlhak7HDsG7qJhtHzWjuZmXj4z4BRbw&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=201e74fd603a6d6967d1bcabab4922f1&oe=5ED22DF9)

As long as the Dems protect these people all we have is speculation and not enough to meet the requirements for even an Article 32 investigation.  It's all circumstantial.

The Vindman brothers will retire and be in their dotage before there is ever enough proof to back up what we all think happened.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 09:20:33 PM
If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo

QFT
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 09:21:25 PM
"Normal circumstances" or not the standard is the same.  Anything else is just making excuses for bad behavior.


Vindman, in my mind, committed treason by knowingly and with purpose leaking classified information to pursue his personal agenda thereby forfeiting all of his rights, including privacy.

In your mind maybe...in realty and what the law defines as "treason" no he didn't do that.  There are other laws that cover what he did and as I said before it's inexcusable...but that doesn't make the President doing it justifiable.  If anything Trump should set a BETTER example than the people that work for him.


You and the rest of the pitchfork and torches crowd won't get your pound of flesh.  What I laid out earlier in this thread about how they will treat him is the most likely course of action for what they will do with him and his brother.

Sorry...but that's just the reality of how the military works.

You are probably right @txradioguy and IMHO, that is a cryin damned shame!  In my day the Army would have thrown the book at a bastard like him.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 08, 2020, 09:24:17 PM
You are probably right @txradioguy and IMHO, that is a cryin damned shame!  In my day the Army would have thrown the book at a bastard like him.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that @Bigun.  Im old school enough to think they need to be put in front of formation and have their ranks ripped off their uniform...the Army name tapes stripped off their BDU's and the formation turns their back on them as they are escorted off post in shame.

But having served long enough in the current Army environment...that's not gonna happen anymore.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 09:28:02 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you on that @Bigun.  Im old school enough to think they need to be put in front of formation and have their ranks rilled off their uniform...the Army name tapes stripped off their BDU's and the formation turns their back on them as they are escorted off post in shame.

But having served long enough in the current Army environment...that's not gonna happen anymore.

 :crying: :crying: :crying:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 09:28:08 PM
If the CinC asked Vindman's CO about his performance the CO is obligated to tell the CinC....but the CinC is not obligated and should not tell the world about his performance...the only way the world would hear about his performance is during a Court Martial unless it was sealed...I expect the treasonous twins will file a lawsuit now...

Trump should have just fired them which is his prerogative, and kept his mouth shut....jmo

Respectfully disagree Myst.

It would have leaked.  This is better.   So what if they sue the CinC?   There is a "problematic" little thing called ... Discovery.  That NONE of the Palace Coup participants can ever survive.

He and his odious twin were moles and betrayers.   I never thought it possible .. but they may be more despicable Americans than the "Castro Twins".   Public humiliation is better, and the predictable MSM/Dimm outrage only amplifies his treachery.   DoD needs to handle his career at this juncture. 

Transfer him out of the WH.  Get RID of all of them.  I kinda like one proposal that the NSC be moved across the Potomac and out of the White House.   They're entrenched enemies until proven otherwise IMO.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 09:30:03 PM
Respectfully disagree Myst.

It would have leaked.  This is better.   So what if they sue the CinC?   

He and his odious twin were moles and betrayers.    Public humiliation is better, and the predictable MSM/Dimm outrage only amplifies his treachery.   DoD needs to handle his career at this juncture. 

Transfer him out of the WH.  Get RID of all of them.  I kinda like one proposal that the NSC be moved across the Potomac and out of the White House.   They're entrenched enemies until proven otherwise IMO.

You'll get no argument from me @ArneFufkin
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 08, 2020, 09:37:04 PM
Respectfully disagree Myst.

It would have leaked.  This is better.   So what if they sue the CinC?   There is a "problematic" little thing called ... Discovery.  That NONE of the Palace Coup participants can ever survive.

He and his odious twin were moles and betrayers.   I never thought it possible .. but they may be more despicable Americans than the "Castro Twins".   Public humiliation is better, and the predictable MSM/Dimm outrage only amplifies his treachery.   DoD needs to handle his career at this juncture. 

Transfer him out of the WH.  Get RID of all of them.  I kinda like one proposal that the NSC be moved across the Potomac and out of the White House.   They're entrenched enemies until proven otherwise IMO.

Yep...I agree with just about everything you said except the fact that Trump shouldn't have said it...let someone else leak it there are plenty of avenues for that..
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 08, 2020, 09:37:06 PM
I've read the quotes from the LTC that reprimanded him during an exercise in Germany.  That's different than referring to his performance evaluations.  The rebuke given to Vindman about his comments to some Russian and Ukranian soldiers that degraded his fellow soldiers is different than what Trump is hinting at in his comments today.

BTW @txradioguy I do not think any of that is what the President was referring to. I continue to believe he was referring to Morrison's testimony in the House impeachment hearings which, I do believe were public.

The relevant part is about 2 hrs and 20 minutes in IIRC

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAI39mb3QaI#)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 09:41:04 PM
@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.

Sorry, but this is a CIVILIAN led and sanctioned military and President Trump is the Commander in Chief.   

Do you think the Vindman Brothers were thrown on one of Elon Musk's rockets and jettisoned into the Oort Cloud?

They'll get re-assigned to some unknown command, quit and go to some Lefty think tank and MSNBC punditry.

The VINDMANS ... their brother Leonid is a money-man in the Ukraine corrupt "feeding frenzy" ... are in trouble.  Period.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 09:41:46 PM
Yep...I agree with just about everything you said except the fact that Trump shouldn't have said it...let someone else leak it there are plenty of avenues for that..

Therein lies the problem...Trump can never keep himself in check. We've seen this movie too many times, Trump turns bulls in a china shop into prima ballerinas.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 09:44:37 PM
Yep...I agree with just about everything you said except the fact that Trump shouldn't have said it...let someone else leak it there are plenty of avenues for that..

We both sigh at times, Myst, with Trump's impatience and "prickliness"

It's who he is.  And, it's what we're going to see.  I'm sanguine about it.   Putting a small container of OJ in my teeth as I shake my head!    happy77
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 09:48:00 PM
@Bigun the very fact he mentioned the performance evaluations (Officer Evaluation Report) means he's seen them and knows he had at least one bad one in there.  You want to split hairs to try and defend Trump running his mouth on this and I get that.  He doesn't have to mention a specific OER to be in violation.

The Privacy Act of 1974 and FOIA are very specific with these types of evaluations. 

And for everyone rah-raging Trump doing this...do a little introspection and ask yourself how pissed would you be if Hillary or Obama or President Sanders (God forbid) pulled the same stunt on an officer who'd been critical of them and make disparaging comments about performance reviews of an officer that had been critical of one of them.

Y'all would have veins exploding in your foreheads over the mere thought of that happening.

I'm not defending what Vindman did and he deserved to be let go from his position so does his brother.  He stepped in it big time and it's very safe to say he's reached terminal rank in his military career.

But he's still a member of the uniform armed forces just like I am and as such deserves the same protections just as he deserves the same punishments for wrong doing as any soldier does.

Just because the person he dared to challenge was the President doesn't strip him of those protections just because the pitchfork and torches crowd wants it that way.

Well said, @txradioguy . I bolded what I thought is the money quote. We're agreeing with the staunch Trump supporters that he was right to send the Vindmans packing. Not to put words in your mouth, we simply think public pronouncements on Vindman's OER are improper.

I'm having difficulty understanding why that is creating so much contentiousness here tonight.

I'm outta here, anyway...Zags play St. Mary's in 15 minutes, and I'm ready for a pregame beer.  :beer:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 09:51:40 PM
Therein lies the problem...Trump can never keep himself in check. We've seen this movie too many times, Trump turns bulls in a china shop into prima ballerinas.

So what?

Trump OWNS CNN and MSNBC and most all the hysterical sociopaths that comprise the MSM/Dem elite these days.

This has ALWAYS been a 30/40/30 country.  Back to the Revolution Days.   30% wanted to leave the English King, 30% were dead set against it and ... 40% weren't really paying attention and only looked about who was winning at the operative time.

WE care about Trump's Tweets only because we are paying attention.  Nobody who is going to vote for Trump's great economy and social values in any swing state has the first idea about what he "tweeted" today.   

The SOTU was ANYTHING but "Bull in the China Shop".  It was the best I've seen.  He was positive, inclusive and stalwart.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Night Hides Not on February 08, 2020, 09:57:00 PM
So what?

Trump OWNS CNN and MSNBC and most all the hysterical sociopaths that comprise the MSM/Dem elite these days.

This has ALWAYS been a 30/40/30 county.  Back to the Revolution Days.   30% wanted to leave the English King, 30% were dead set against it and ... 40% weren't really paying attention and only looked about who was winning at the operative time.

WE care about Trump's Tweets only because we are paying attention.  Nobody who is going to vote for Trump's great economy and social values in any swing state has the first idea about what he "tweeted" today.   

The SOTU was ANYTHING but "Bull in the China Shop".  It was the best I've seen.  He was positive, inclusive and stalwart.

You're killing me! I thought the SOTU address was a fantastic speech. It just didn't take long before Trump reverted to his regular self.

I've already said I'm voting for Trump, at least the Trump that I saw Tuesday night, so you don't need to waste Myst's bandwidth converting me to the cause.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 10:01:43 PM
You're killing me! I thought the SOTU address was a fantastic speech. It just didn't take long before Trump reverted to his regular self.

I've already said I'm voting for Trump, at least the Trump that I saw Tuesday night, so you don't need to waste Myst's bandwidth converting me to the cause.

That IS Trump!  So was everything after the SOTU, including the National Prayer Day speech and his "Acquittal Celebration" that was legitimate, righteous and REALLY bonding for the GOP coalition going forward.

Hopefully Mitt gets into the mix.  For you.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 08, 2020, 10:05:19 PM
You're killing me! I thought the SOTU address was a fantastic speech. It just didn't take long before Trump reverted to his regular self.

I've already said I'm voting for Trump, at least the Trump that I saw Tuesday night, so you don't need to waste Myst's bandwidth converting me to the cause.
22222frying pan but you must agree..... lol
Just a thought... you can fight not to lose, a typical republican tactic, or you can fight to win, Trump.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 10:15:55 PM
22222frying pan but you must agree..... lol
Just a thought... you can fight not to lose, a typical republican tactic, or you can fight to win, Trump.

Trump "dumped" the puffy Vindmans and sent them OUT ... OUT .. of the NSC.

Get the NSC OUTTA the White House until the Obama termites and cockroaches can be terminated by "Terminex"  Send them over the river and GET THEM OUT of the WH until the Quislings are gone.

This is shaping up to be the most corrupt, State sponsored criminal conspiracy in human history.  I believe that.

Bolton was making money from Ukraine oligarchs.  So was Mitt.  The Clintons, Bidens, Kerrys  ... everyone. 

WE TAXPAYERS were funding this through corrupt Obama functionaries. 

Man, oh, man.   

Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: ArneFufkin on February 08, 2020, 11:13:06 PM
Then he failed.

He has succeeded beyound your capability.

This is WAR.  It ... is.  This was a OPEN and CORRUPT political, media and lawbreaking overthrow of our duly elected President of the United States.  It's deep, dark and evil.   I saw it happening and I am not happy.  Won't EVER happen again.

Think about that.  Where do YOU stand?  I'm curious to know.

Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: catfish1957 on February 08, 2020, 11:57:35 PM
As long as the Dems protect these people all we have is speculation and not enough to meet the requirements for even an Article 32 investigation.  It's all circumstantial.

The Vindman brothers will retire and be in their dotage before there is ever enough proof to back up what we all think happened.

That graph screams conspiracy to overthrow the Executive Branch of the United States. 

Wonder how our goverment would have responded to this say 150-200 years ago.   13859 :cool:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 09, 2020, 12:45:26 AM
Trump "dumped" the puffy Vindmans and sent them OUT ... OUT .. of the NSC.

Get the NSC OUTTA the White House until the Obama termites and cockroaches can be terminated by "Terminex"  Send them over the river and GET THEM OUT of the WH until the Quislings are gone.

This is shaping up to be the most corrupt, State sponsored criminal conspiracy in human history.  I believe that.

Bolton was making money from Ukraine oligarchs.  So was Mitt.  The Clintons, Bidens, Kerrys  ... everyone. 

WE TAXPAYERS were funding this through corrupt Obama functionaries. 

Man, oh, man.
There's a word for all that: Kickbacks.
And it was just a small fraction of the aid we gave them from our generous taxpayers' pockets.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: dancer on February 09, 2020, 04:56:34 AM
I here there is such an opening at Thule Greenland!
Nah.  He doesn't deserve hot springs.  I'm thinking North Dakota.  Perhaps northern Alaska.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: dancer on February 09, 2020, 05:00:19 AM
There is also an older brother, Leonid, who runs an investment/consulting company that specializes in projects in "Central Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus and Central Asia region."  http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html (http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html)

Presumably, that would include Ukraine and there were several Ukraine investment round-tables moderated by the older Vindman.  Is there anyone connected with the Neocon/Clinton/Obama machine in any way that doesn't have their greedy hands in the corrupt sewers of Russia and Ukraine?   John Bolton was paid $115K for a speech by Ukranian oligarch and huge Clinton Foundation donor Victor Pinchuk.   Romney's "special advisor" in his 2012 campaign,  Cofer Black, joined Hunter Biden on the Burisma board in 2017.   

It just reeks.
Indeed it does. IIRC, they were both involved in the dossier business as well, had offices across from each other.   :2popcorn:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: dancer on February 09, 2020, 05:17:55 AM
I'll see that and raise you one immediate federal investigation into Hillary Clinton and her Foundation...her daughter being no different than Hunter Biden, in that she wasn't worth what she was earning....BEFORE she declares as a candidate for POTUS.
Already in the soup.  FBI has an investigation involving the Clinton Foundation.  Started in '18.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: dancer on February 09, 2020, 05:34:01 AM
He has succeeded beyound your capability.

This is WAR.  It ... is.  This was a OPEN and CORRUPT political, media and lawbreaking overthrow of our duly elected President of the United States.  It's deep, dark and evil.   I saw it happening and I am not happy.  Won't EVER happen again.

Think about that.  Where do YOU stand?  I'm curious to know.
888high58888
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 09, 2020, 07:36:51 AM
Already in the soup.  FBI has an investigation involving the Clinton Foundation.  Started in '18.
How many there are reliable? It seems like the result of the investigations so far is to expose the weaknesses of those involved in this corruption so the evidence (and witnesses) can be eliminated.

As ever, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: libertybele on February 09, 2020, 07:51:09 AM
How many there are reliable? It seems like the result of the investigations so far is to expose the weaknesses of those involved in this corruption so the evidence (and witnesses) can be eliminated.

As ever, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Exactly.  Those corrupt are investigating themselves -- just like during the Mueller investigation.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 09, 2020, 09:14:54 AM
Quote
There is also an older brother, Leonid, who runs an investment/consulting company that specializes in projects in "Central Eastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus and Central Asia region."  http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html (http://www.tungstencapitaladvisors.com/Leadership.html)

@ArneFufkin

IMAGINE THAT!

Why,if I were the suspicious type, I might link that with the children of VERY prominent Dim politicians sitting on eastern european boards who have never even had a paper route previously,and come to the "TREASON" conclusion.

Not to mention the fact we need to find a "Happy Hangman" for after the necessary trials and convictions.

Quote
Presumably, that would include Ukraine and there were several Ukraine investment round-tables moderated by the older Vindman.  Is there anyone connected with the Neocon/Clinton/Obama machine in any way that doesn't have their greedy hands in the corrupt sewers of Russia and Ukraine?   John Bolton was paid $115K for a speech by Ukranian oligarch and huge Clinton Foundation donor Victor Pinchuk.   Romney's "special advisor" in his 2012 campaign,  Cofer Black, joined Hunter Biden on the Burisma board in 2017.   

It just reeks.

Yes,it does. The question is "What are we going to do about it?"
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 09, 2020, 12:12:26 PM
Graham backs Vindman firing: 'People in his chain of command have been suspicious of him regarding his political point of view'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/482226-graham-backs-vindman-firing-people-in-his-chain-of-command-have


This is what I meant last night when I said let others do the outing of Vindman..not Trump
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 09, 2020, 01:07:48 PM
Graham backs Vindman firing: 'People in his chain of command have been suspicious of him regarding his political point of view'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/482226-graham-backs-vindman-firing-people-in-his-chain-of-command-have


This is what I meant last night when I said let others do the outing of Vindman..not Trump

Respectfully @mystery-ak it was Tim Morrison (his boss in the WH) who outed Vindman! Trump was talking about what Tim Morrison testified before a Congressional committee UNDER OATH.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 09, 2020, 02:29:01 PM
Respectfully @mystery-ak it was Tim Morrison (his boss in the WH) who outed Vindman! Trump was talking about what Tim Morrison testified before a Congressional committee UNDER OATH.

@Bigun

Well,Lady Lindsey was (is still?) a JAG officer in the Air Force,so I suspect he is more of an authority on this type of thing than any of us.

Besides,I really don't think a President needs permission,or even a reason other than "I wanna...." to fire anyone on his staff. They ALL "serve at the pleasure of the President"
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: catfish1957 on February 09, 2020, 02:33:25 PM
@Bigun

Well,Lady Lindsey was (is still?) a JAG officer in the Air Force,so I suspect he is more of an authority on this type of thing than any of us.

Besides,I really don't think a President needs permission,or even a reason other than "I wanna...." to fire anyone on his staff. They ALL "serve at the pleasure of the President"

You know, where I worked insubordination was grounds for dismissal.  I would venture the same for the other Fortune 499 companies.

What is the dang deal here?
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 09, 2020, 03:11:58 PM
You know, where I worked insubordination was grounds for dismissal.  I would venture the same for the other Fortune 499 companies.

What is the dang deal here?

@catfish1957

Somebody wants to play the "victim game". When it's all they have,that is always where the left goes.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: skeeter on February 09, 2020, 03:15:37 PM
@catfish1957

Somebody wants to play the "victim game". When it's all they have,that is always where the left goes.

Leftist FB 'friends' of mine were suffering the vapors upon hearing Vindman was walked out. You'd think he was Nathan Hale.

Of course they couldn't tell you a damn thing about him, other than he was a witness for the House prosecution of Orange Man Bad.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: mystery-ak on February 09, 2020, 03:33:29 PM
Leftist FB 'friends' of mine were suffering the vapors upon hearing Vindman was walked out. You'd think he was Nathan Hale.

Of course they couldn't tell you a damn thing about him, other than he was a witness for the House prosecution of Orange Man Bad.

That's not what I am trying to say...I don't want Trump dirtying is hands by taking out the trash..my suggestion was let someone else do it.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 09, 2020, 03:47:13 PM
That's not what I am trying to say...I don't want Trump dirtying is hands by taking out the trash..my suggestion was let someone else do it.
A real leader is the shield for his team so I suspect that someone else is "taking out the trash" but Trump is taking the heat for them.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: DCPatriot on February 09, 2020, 03:52:07 PM
I hope they break his rank to Prv 1st Class and immediately dishonorably discharge him.

Let some future Commie American POTUS grant him a pardon.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on February 09, 2020, 03:53:48 PM
I hope they break his rank to Prv 1st Class and immediately dishonorably discharge him.

Let some future Commie American POTUS grant him a pardon.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 09, 2020, 05:03:26 PM
@Bigun

Well,Lady Lindsey was (is still?) a JAG officer in the Air Force,so I suspect he is more of an authority on this type of thing than any of us.

Besides,I really don't think a President needs permission,or even a reason other than "I wanna...." to fire anyone on his staff. They ALL "serve at the pleasure of the President"

That is exactly right @sneakypete but it doesn't have anything to do with what I was talking about in what you quoted.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 09, 2020, 05:05:41 PM
That's not what I am trying to say...I don't want Trump dirtying is hands by taking out the trash..my suggestion was let someone else do it.

Someone else DID do it @mystery-ak His name is Tim Morrison and he did it under oath before a congressional committee.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 08:56:56 AM
 Just because we don't see the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on television condemning Vindman, it doesn't mean that they are in approval of the coup.

Under questioning by John Ratcliffe, you can read about him giving the Ukrainians instruction to go against the CiC’s stated desires here: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/11/09/the-coup-against-a-sitting-u-s-president-became-official-on-october-29th-2019/

Pay close attention to the parts highlighted for emphasis by Veteran and Career LEO, Roscoe B. Davis. His Tweet thread is here: https://twitter.com/RoscoeBDavis1/status/1192918037864861698

As you read through Vindman's testimony (especially as questioned by Representative John Ratcliffe), it is clear that he was not only disobeying implied orders from the Commander in Chief, but he was also directing and inciting foreign (Ukrainian) actors to also decline to cooperate with the stated desires of the Commander in Chief.

From Article 92 link above:



Quote
U.S. Code § 892. Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation

Any person subject to this chapter who—
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.



From Article 88 link above:


Quote
U.S. Code § 888. Art. 88. Contempt toward officials

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Homeland Security, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.




Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 10:27:29 AM
I hope they break his rank to Prv 1st Class and immediately dishonorably discharge him.

Let some future Commie American POTUS grant him a pardon.

It's nice to dream about...but it's not gonna happen that way.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 10:34:50 AM
Just because we don't see the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on television condemning Vindman, it doesn't mean that they are in approval of the coup.

Under questioning by John Ratcliffe, you can read about him giving the Ukrainians instruction to go against the CiC’s stated desires here: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/11/09/the-coup-against-a-sitting-u-s-president-became-official-on-october-29th-2019/

Pay close attention to the parts highlighted for emphasis by Veteran and Career LEO, Roscoe B. Davis. His Tweet thread is here: https://twitter.com/RoscoeBDavis1/status/1192918037864861698

As you read through Vindman's testimony (especially as questioned by Representative John Ratcliffe), it is clear that he was not only disobeying implied orders from the Commander in Chief, but he was also directing and inciting foreign (Ukrainian) actors to also decline to cooperate with the stated desires of the Commander in Chief.

From Article 92 link above:





From Article 88 link above:

That's all well and good IF you can get a JAG or someone in the Pentagon that he now works for to start an Article 32 investigation into what went down.

And then the convening authority would have to determine if the words were truly contemptuous...because that's very subjective.

Had Vindman while in uniform refereed to the President as a "small handed Orange buffoon" then it's very clear the words were an Article 88 violation.

Whatever he said in his closed door testimony is speculation at this point as is whether he did what is claimed with regards to the Ukrainian officials.

There is no smoking gun to start a Courts Martial  proceeding against him or his brother as much as people want to play armchair general and say that there is.

And quite frankly I don't think SecDef or SecArmy will let it happen regardless. 

He's going to quietly retire in about 6 months...so will his brother...they'll get their retirement and sign on as some kind of paid military/defense/intelligence analyst with a TV network and bash Trump the military...the DoD and the rest of the folks Progressives hate and the rest will be history.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 11:13:14 AM
That's all well and good IF you can get a JAG or someone in the Pentagon that he now works for to start an Article 32 investigation into what went down.

And then the convening authority would have to determine if the words were truly contemptuous...because that's very subjective.

Had Vindman while in uniform refereed to the President as a "small handed Orange buffoon" then it's very clear the words were an Article 88 violation.

Whatever he said in his closed door testimony is speculation at this point as is whether he did what is claimed with regards to the Ukrainian officials.

There is no smoking gun to start a Courts Martial  proceeding against him or his brother as much as people want to play armchair general and say that there is.

And quite frankly I don't think SecDef or SecArmy will let it happen regardless. 

He's going to quietly retire in about 6 months...so will his brother...they'll get their retirement and sign on as some kind of paid military/defense/intelligence analyst with a TV network and bash Trump the military...the DoD and the rest of the folks Progressives hate and the rest will be history.

Once again, you are probably right but that doesn't make it suck any less.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 11:31:27 AM
Once again, you are probably right but that doesn't make it suck any less.

I agree completely.  And as much as I'd like to see something happen to him...almost 24 years as part of the Green Machine says what needs to happen to him...won't happen.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 12:01:02 PM
It's nice to dream about...but it's not gonna happen that way.

@txradioguy

True,but it SHOULD. They should even save paper by giving him and his twin the boot on the same piece of paper.

The government should also give them active jail time,since they were officers in the US Army who were also violating their oaths.

Anything short of prison time at Leavenworth is not going to hurt them. They will immediately be hired by Dim "think tanks" at inflated salaries to pay off any fines and lost retirement income,as well as become "political corespondents" at some leftist network or news operation,and end up making more money in the long run.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 12:06:51 PM
@txradioguy

True,but it SHOULD. They should even save paper by giving him and his twin the boot on the same piece of paper.

The government should also give them active jail time,since they were officers in the US Army who were also violating their oaths.

Anything short of prison time at Leavenworth is not going to hurt them. They will immediately be hired by Dim "think tanks" at inflated salaries to pay off any fines and lost retirement income,as well as become "political corespondents" at some leftist network or news operation,and end up making more money in the long run.

Don't disagree with anything you said Pete. 
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
Don't disagree with anything you said Pete.

@txradioguy

Sadly,this is one of those times when I wish I were wrong.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 12:28:05 PM
@txradioguy

Sadly,this is one of those times when I wish I were wrong.
And they threw that kid in the navy in prison for taking a picture to show his mother what he was doing.... No one is above the law... right
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
@txradioguy

Sadly,this is one of those times when I wish I were wrong.

If the United States Army will not prosecute the likes of these two within their ranks that once-proud institution has become nothing more than a shell of its former self and that "Long Gray Line" no longer has any meaning.

My $.02
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 12:33:22 PM
And they threw that kid in the navy in prison for taking a picture to show his mother what he was doing.... No one is above the law... right

Make's me sick to my stomach thinking about it @EdinVA
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 12:56:58 PM
Make's me sick to my stomach thinking about it @EdinVA

I am sure there was more to the story than what we were told, but still...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 12:58:27 PM
Just because we don't see the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on television condemning Vindman, it doesn't mean that they are in approval of the coup.

Under questioning by John Ratcliffe, you can read about him giving the Ukrainians instruction to go against the CiC’s stated desires here: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/11/09/the-coup-against-a-sitting-u-s-president-became-official-on-october-29th-2019/ (https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2019/11/09/the-coup-against-a-sitting-u-s-president-became-official-on-october-29th-2019/)

Pay close attention to the parts highlighted for emphasis by Veteran and Career LEO, Roscoe B. Davis. His Tweet thread is here: https://twitter.com/RoscoeBDavis1/status/1192918037864861698 (https://twitter.com/RoscoeBDavis1/status/1192918037864861698)

As you read through Vindman's testimony (especially as questioned by Representative John Ratcliffe), it is clear that he was not only disobeying implied orders from the Commander in Chief, but he was also directing and inciting foreign (Ukrainian) actors to also decline to cooperate with the stated desires of the Commander in Chief.

From Article 92 link above:





From Article 88 link above:

@Bigun
So vidman is not the angel everyone was led to believe... I am shocked...
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 01:08:47 PM
@Bigun
So vidman is not the angel everyone was led to believe... I am shocked...

LOL! I'm sure you are! /s

Not He but they are all subversive trash IMHO.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 01:12:55 PM
I am sure there was more to the story than what we were told, but still...

Perhaps the Navy still values its integrity @EdinVA.

When I was in the military I had a Top Secret CRYPTO clearance which was, at the time, the highest one you could get.  I and other people around me were frequently reminded about the pain we would endure if we violated that trust intentionally or not. Didn't make a damned bit of difference.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 01:19:14 PM
If the United States Army will not prosecute the likes of these two within their ranks that once-proud institution has become nothing more than a shell of its former self and that "Long Gray Line" no longer has any meaning.

My $.02

The politicization of the officer ranks started decades ago.  It's always been a system where once you got to a certain rank you needed a benefactor to help you attain the next rank...and at the Flag (General Officer) level that usually involves a Senator willing to nominate you for your star.  And in a lot of cases there's a lot of quid pro quo going on there.

Most Lt. Colonel's know coming out of the Command and General Staff College if they are going to wind up being a 30 year Colonel O-6 or if they are going to make it to the General Officer rank...and most of it has to do with politics.

It's the same with the Sergeant Major rank on the enlisted side...it's all politics.  Which is why I never wanted to make it above E-8 Master Sergeant.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 01:22:35 PM
The politicization of the officer ranks started decades ago.  It's always been a system where once you got to a certain rank you needed a benefactor to help you attain the next rank...and at the Flag (General Officer) level that usually involves a Senator willing to nominate you for your star.  And in a lot of cases there's a lot of quid pro quo going on there.

Most Lt. Colonel's know coming out of the Command and General Staff College if they are going to wind up being a 30 year Colonel O-6 or if they are going to make it to the General Officer rank...and most of it has to do with politics.

It's the same with the Sergeant Major rank on the enlisted side...it's all politics.  Which is why I never wanted to make it above E-8 Master Sergeant.

 :3:
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 01:25:09 PM
Perhaps the Navy still values its integrity @EdinVA.


Unfortunately...the Navy and the USAF have been the two branches to openly embrace political correctness and social justice in their ranks...with the Coasties a close 3rd.  And they are paying a price for it now.  The Army and the Marines have pushed back to a certain extent but I'm afraid they are going to give in too.

What does PC have to do with integrity you ask?  Political correctness social/environmental justice and all the baggage that comes along with it goes against what we in the military are supposed to stand for uphold defend and believe in.

IMHO if you buy into the crap the Progressive left is pushing...if their dogma becomes policy...then the integrity of the force has been compromised.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 01:29:16 PM
Unfortunately...the Navy and the USAF have been the two branches to openly embrace political correctness and social justice in their ranks...with the Coasties a close 3rd.  And they are paying a price for it now.  The Army and the Marines have pushed back to a certain extent but I'm afraid they are going to give in too.

What does PC have to do with integrity you ask?  Political correctness social/environmental justice and all the baggage that comes along with it goes against what we in the military are supposed to stand for uphold defend and believe in.

IMHO if you buy into the crap the Progressive left is pushing...if their dogma becomes policy...then the integrity of the force has been compromised.

So the only reason the guy @EdinVA mentioned above was prosecuted is that he was just an enlisted puke and would make a fine example.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 01:35:54 PM
So the only reason the guy @EdinVA mentioned above was prosecuted is that he was just an enlisted puke and would make a fine example.

Quote
US ​​Navy sailor jailed for taking photos of classified areas of nuclear submarine

A US Navy sailor (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/us-military) was sentenced on Friday to a year in prison for taking photos of classified areas inside a nuclear attack submarine while it was in port in Connecticut.
Kristian Saucier, of Arlington, Vermont (https://www.theguardian.com/world/vermont), appeared in federal court in Bridgeport, where a judge also ordered him to serve six months of home confinement with electronic monitoring during a three-year period of supervised release after the prison time. He pleaded guilty in May to unauthorized detention of defense information and had faced five to six years in prison under federal sentencing guidelines.
Saucier admitted to taking six photos of classified areas inside the USS Alexandria in 2009 when it was in Groton and he was a 22-year-old machinist mate on the submarine. The photos showed the nuclear reactor compartment, the auxiliary steam propulsion panel and the maneuvering compartment, prosecutors said.
Saucier took the photos knowing they were classified, but did so only to be able to show his family and future children what he did while he was in the Navy, his lawyers said. He denied sharing the photos with any unauthorized recipient.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/20/us-navy-sailor-jailed-for-taking-photos-of-classified-areas-of-nuclear-submarine (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/20/us-navy-sailor-jailed-for-taking-photos-of-classified-areas-of-nuclear-submarine)
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 01:39:56 PM
So the only reason the guy @EdinVA mentioned above was prosecuted is that he was just an enlisted puke and would make a fine example.

No he legit broke the law and he knew he broke the law in taking those photographs.  Just the fact that he took the photos in a classified area of a classified subject means his camera became a classified object and couldn't be used for regular happy snaps anymore.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 01:43:34 PM
No he legit broke the law and he knew he broke the law in taking those photographs.  Just the fact that he took the photos in a classified area of a classified subject means his camera became a classified object and couldn't be used for regular happy snaps anymore.

Yeah! I am very familiar. Which is why I have very few pictures of me in Vietnam.  I contend that the Vindmans damned well knew that what they were doing was illegal as well! Not that it matters whether or not they did.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: txradioguy on February 10, 2020, 01:48:06 PM
Yeah! I am very familiar. Which is why I have very few pictures of me in Vietnam.  I contend that the Vindmans damned well knew that what they were doing was illegal as well! Not that it matters whether or not they did.

But at the end of the day it comes down to what they (Vindman Brothers) knew and what the prosecution at a Courts Martial can actually prove.  He said she said type of evidence won't fly in court.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 02:00:28 PM
But at the end of the day it comes down to what they (Vindman Brothers) knew and what the prosecution at a Courts Martial can actually prove.  He said she said type of evidence won't fly in court.

Yes!  I am fully aware of that as well.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 02:15:30 PM
And they threw that kid in the navy in prison for taking a picture to show his mother what he was doing.... No one is above the law... right

@EdinVA

I had forgotten all about him.

I sure hope his lawyers read about this case and use it as a tool to get that sailor released.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
Perhaps the Navy still values its integrity @EdinVA.

When I was in the military I had a Top Secret CRYPTO clearance which was, at the time, the highest one you could get.  I and other people around me were frequently reminded about the pain we would endure if we violated that trust intentionally or not. Didn't make a damned bit of difference.

@Bigun

Well,there were "One Time Code Word" clearances for one-time operations,but I am guessing most people that received them already has TS clearances.

BTW,I had a TS/Crypto,too.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 10, 2020, 02:26:54 PM
@Bigun

Well,there were "One Time Code Word" clearances for one-time operations,but I am guessing most people that received them already has TS clearances.

BTW,I had a TS/Crypto,too.

Working where you worked would have required that @sneakypete
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 03:09:19 PM
The politicization of the officer ranks started decades ago.  It's always been a system where once you got to a certain rank you needed a benefactor to help you attain the next rank...and at the Flag (General Officer) level that usually involves a Senator willing to nominate you for your star.  And in a lot of cases there's a lot of quid pro quo going on there.

Most Lt. Colonel's know coming out of the Command and General Staff College if they are going to wind up being a 30 year Colonel O-6 or if they are going to make it to the General Officer rank...and most of it has to do with politics.


I PERSONALLY know of two Reserve Officers from Mass that were brought back on active duty SPECIFICALLY to they could command SF a SF company in one case (he was a LTC when brought back on AD,which made him a company commander),and in the other case he was a Bird Colonel  that had been in the reserves since the end of the Korean War,and he was brought back on AD SPECIFICALLY to command the 5th SF Group in VN. His first year he was given the command of the 1st SFG on Okinawa,and when he arrived on the island to take command,he only had 5 jumps under his belt. That's right,he was a graduate of the special "Senior Officers Jump School" at Ft.Benning. They sent him to command the 1st so he could learn about SF before he went to VN and started giving press conferences to the network news.

I guess I should mention that he was retired from the Boston,Mass PD,and was a senior officer there. I guess he was bored by retirement,so decided to go "play soldier" to spice his life up. There was always the suspicion he had political influence working in the background because nobody had every heard of a non-SF officer coming in and taking command of what was one of the most strategically important SF Groups in the US Army at that time. Can you say "Kennedy Family"? 

I was there when he arrived,and that's how I know this. Evidentially he decided he didn't look enough like a "hardened SF Colonel" wearing "cherry jumper wings",so he rectified (I try to use some form of the word "rectum" every time I write or talk about him) this by writing his own name on every "water jump" the 1st group made.

We normally jumped on Yomitan Airport,and it was a scary place to jump. 12 second DZ with x00,000 high voltage NSA power lines and the army attack dog training center on one end,along with a cliff a couple of hundred feet high with a drop off into the ocean,piles of coral rocks at the end of the potato fields the Okinawan farmers dug up to plant their potatoes,several hangers and other buildings,and at times,small private planes trying to take off. I was there on one jump working with the ground crew,and there were dozens of people hospitalized from that one jump due to "meeting" one of those obstacles. Including the Group Chaplin,who was blown into a hanger wall and broke his neck.

Colonel Kelley COULD have jumped on Yamitan,but chose to make water jumps,instead. Water jumps were normally restricted to only the guys from the 1st that came back wounded from a TDY tour in VN because they were too crippled up to land on Yomitan.

We even had our own PT Boat  for the water jumps,crewed by a SF Crew that normally ran the Scuba Committee. It was rumored to be the private PT boat owned by JFK when he was president,but had somehow mysteriously disappeared from the dock after his death. Anyhow,it was our PT boat,and we had a regular crew of SF guys that operated and maintained it. On water jumps,that crew was supplemented by a couple of guys with sniper rifles to shoot any of the local sharks that got too close to the guys in the water.

So,Colonel Kelly goes out on every water jump that happens so he can get his Master Blaster Jump Wings to wear and look like a seasoned SF soldier when in front of the cameras giving briefings to reporters.

He's on one of these water jumps one day when the wind is probably blowing a little higher than regulations call for (don't go to SF if you don't have a sense of humor about these things),and here comes Kommando Kelley,jumping a MC-1 maneuverable parachute,which he had never seen or even heard about before because only SF jumped them,and because of the sharks in the water and all,he wanted to land as close to the PT boat as possible,so he is pulling a full forward slip with the wind behind him,and he slams right into the side of the PT boat,breaking a leg in the process.

And THAT,my friends is how our Courageous Colonel Kelley came to be known as "Splash Kelley".

The other guy was also retired Army Reserve from Boston,and he was a bigger asshat than Splash. I met him in the 90's while working as an advisor to SFTG. We would have came to blows if I hadn't been tackled on my way to get close to him,and that ended my advisory role.  SOB honestly thought he could talk trash to me because I was a civilian contractor and he was a LTC.

He was later sent to Thailand to command 46 Company of the 1st to get him away from Bragg after breaking into the off-base house of a MSG that worked under him that had been arrested for drunk driving,and confiscating/stealing all the MSG's personally-owned rifles and handguns,along with the ammunition,and dumping them in Mott Lake. Being from Boston,and most likely a cop there,I can't remember for sure,he HATED guns and didn't even think career infantry soldiers should be allowed to any that weren't army issue and locked up on base. In FACT,he put the word out when he first got to Bragg that ANY soldier under his command that was caught with a privately owned handgun on his person or in his private vehicle,would be court-marshaled. EVEN if they have a state CCW weapons permit.

 The word I got was the court-martial of the MSG was dropped and he was allowed to instantly retire at full pay as a MSG in return for him dropping the breaking and entering and felony theft charges against the LTC.

 He was then transferred to Thailand as  LTC company commander,and came back as a full Colonel,and assigned to take over a SF Group. I have no idea how long he lasted because I was out of the system  by then. Can't even remember his name for certain. I hate to mention the name I THINK it was because I might be slandering an innocent man.

 Can you even BEGIN to imagine how much political pull it must have taken for him to be able to pull that off,and still remain in the army and get promoted to full Colonel later?

 I have no doubt he was quickly promoted to 1 star and transferred to the Pentagram to get him the hell out of Bragg.

Quote
It's the same with the Sergeant Major rank on the enlisted side...it's all politics.


 I don't know about the regular army,or even the SF army of today,but back in the 60's there were no finer men serving in uniform anywhere than SF SGM's. We had them for company 1st Sergeants,and if you needed something,they knew how to make it happen. I have nothing negative,or even slightly negative to say about any SF SGM I ever knew,and I knew more than a few that I was proud to call "friend".

Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 03:46:47 PM
Working where you worked would have required that @sneakypete

@Bigun

True. It's no big deal when everybody you know has one.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: truth_seeker on February 10, 2020, 03:52:49 PM
I would like to learn what charges would be used for LTC Alex Vindman?

The overall set-up, whereby AD members are detailed to the NSC and further assigned to the WH, seems normal practice.

I think the larger issue, is that career government employees both

a) Tend to be democrats (often claiming to be independent or republican)

b) Enjoy huge protections, like "Whistleblower laws." 

I doubt a conspiracy can or will be proved.

-----------

Our weapon makers, our military, our intelligence agencies, our representatives,  have common interests, to keep mostly in line.

CIA installed the Shah. Bay of Pigs. Vietnam War.

1960-61 Eisenhower warns about the "Military-Industrial Complex.

Nevertheless we have been in continual wars, CIA/FBI missed most threats.

Fall of USSR, 9-11-2001.

Snowden and Assange, risked their lives, to reveal damaging inside stuff.

Who really runs America?

Generals retire, go to work for military contractors and/or for war think tanks/lobbyists.

Trump is the first Potus that threatens that very comfortable status quo.


Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 06:32:27 PM
I would like to learn what charges would be used for LTC Alex Vindman?

 

@truth_seeker 

I may very well be wrong because I am doing  nothing but GUESSING,but my best guess is WH and NSA documents have their
own security classification,and if you don't have the "WH" or "NSC" tag attached to your security clearance rating,you
are breaking the law by having it and the person that gave you access to it is also committing a felony.

As for the twins,at a MINIUMUM both can be court-martialed for "Conduct unbecoming an Officer in the US Army",which covers
everything from letting the grass in your on-base housing getting to high,to assassinating a President. It is truely a "One
Size Fits All" charge.

As a serving solddier,sailor,airman,or Marine,you have NO Constitutional Rights. You only have the rights granted to you under the
Universal Code of Military Justice.

Not sure about the US Coast Guard,but they probably come under the USCMJ also.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 07:31:38 PM
@truth_seeker 

I may very well be wrong because I am doing  nothing but GUESSING,but my best guess is WH and NSA documents have their
own security classification,and if you don't have the "WH" or "NSC" tag attached to your security clearance rating,you
are breaking the law by having it and the person that gave you access to it is also committing a felony.

As for the twins,at a MINIUMUM both can be court-martialed for "Conduct unbecoming an Officer in the US Army",which covers
everything from letting the grass in your on-base housing getting to high,to assassinating a President. It is truely a "One
Size Fits All" charge.

As a serving solddier,sailor,airman,or Marine,you have NO Constitutional Rights. You only have the rights granted to you under the
Universal Code of Military Justice.

Not sure about the US Coast Guard,but they probably come under the USCMJ also.
I would think he/they could be charged with conspiracy also.. more than 1 person involved..
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 08:48:19 PM
I would think he/they could be charged with conspiracy also.. more than 1 person involved..

@EdinVA

 True,but in the meantime,the old tried and true,"Conduct unbecoming a soldier" charge can keep his butt parked in a military
prison/stockade until a military DA has found enough evidence to put him on trial for more serious charges.

And if he goes to Leavenworth,look for him to be taken MUCH more seriously as a prisoner that needs individual attention than the
typical prisoner they get as guests there.

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that Vinman ain't going to enjoy being a Private at Leavenworth.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: EdinVA on February 10, 2020, 09:03:19 PM
@EdinVA

 True,but in the meantime,the old tried and true,"Conduct unbecoming a soldier" charge can keep his butt parked in a military
prison/stockade until a military DA has found enough evidence to put him on trial for more serious charges.

And if he goes to Leavenworth,look for him to be taken MUCH more seriously as a prisoner that needs individual attention than the
typical prisoner they get as guests there.

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that Vinman ain't going to enjoy being a Private at Leavenworth.
@sneakypete
I hope so.. Not because I want revenge but if the "deep staters" don't ever pay a price then it will never stop.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: sneakypete on February 10, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
@sneakypete
I hope so.. Not because I want revenge but if the "deep staters" don't ever pay a price then it will never stop.

@EdinVA

  EXACTLY! A message MUST be sent that the days of military people violating their oaths to suck up to politicians are OVER,and
that anyone caught will now be hammered.

Political scum lying,cheating and stealing is one thing. The military MUST maintain higher standards.

Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Smokin Joe on February 10, 2020, 09:43:30 PM
@EdinVA

  EXACTLY! A message MUST be sent that the days of military people violating their oaths to suck up to politicians are OVER,and
that anyone caught will now be hammered.

Political scum lying,cheating and stealing is one thing. The military MUST maintain higher standards.
Not just military people.
 Ignoring or just blatantly breaking the law has become sport for those who think they do not have to go by the rules the rest of us do.

Enforce the appropriate laws. Let the punishment fit the crime.
Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: Bigun on February 11, 2020, 05:03:00 PM
Couple of more weigh-in in the Vindmans.

‘CHOW THIEF’: Two Medal Of Honor Recipients Sound Off On Alexander Vindman
(https://www.dailywire.com/news/chow-thief-two-medal-of-honor-recipients-sound-off-on-alexander-vindman)




Title: Re: Impeachment witness Alexander Vindman escorted from White House [wow]
Post by: PeteS in CA on February 11, 2020, 05:37:52 PM
But at the end of the day it comes down to what they (Vindman Brothers) knew and what the prosecution at a Courts Martial can actually prove.  He said she said type of evidence won't fly in court.

Unlike in Schifftyroo's marsupial hearings, to which Vindman lent support.