The Briefing Room

General Category => World News => Topic started by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 12:31:44 AM

Title: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 12:31:44 AM
Also note; after 2-3 days in the World News Forum, all related threads will be swept into this larger thread. I think that is fair. If there is a better name for this thread, please give us your view.

Userful Links:

More or less, all reporters or analyists:

These 3 are all very good:

Wladimir Witgenburg:    https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg)

Joyce Karam: https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam (https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam)

Charles Lister: https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister (https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister)

More of a pro-Turk view, Ragip is a Turk and use to work for one of their news outlets, now he works for  Middle East  Eye:   (https://www.middleeasteye.net/)
Ragip Soylu: https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/ (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/)

Brett McGurk: https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk (https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk)

As said RTs do not equal endorsement. No endorsement on what they say though, some of them are spot on. Just to see varying perspectives.

Then for news, the usual,

al Araby: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/ (https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/)

al Jazeera:   https://www.aljazeera.com/ (https://www.aljazeera.com/)

And I'll leave it that, check BBC, Fox and so on for more news.

Quote
Matthew RJ Brodsky
@RJBrodsky
What do you think #Turkey will do with the #ISIS fighters? This is a bad choice we will soon regret. #Syria
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGPpPKbW4AAYFcz?format=jpg&name=large)

https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1181054050604896256 (https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1181054050604896256)

Quote

Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area

    By    mark osborne
Oct 7, 2019,

 Turkey is set to invade Syria, as the country had been threatening in recent months, with the U.S. saying it will remove all of its forces from the "immediate area," according to the White House.
Interested in Syria?

The news came late Sunday after President Donald Trump spoke to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan by phone earlier in the day.
(MORE: US, Turkey agree to deal on Syria safe zone for refugees as new report warns of ISIS resurgence)

"Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria," the White House said in a statement late Sunday. "The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces, having defeated the ISIS territorial 'Caliphate,' will no longer be in the immediate area."

Read more at: https://abcnews.go.com/International/turkey-set-invade-syria-us-remove-forces-area/story?id=66103777&cid=social_twitter_abcn (https://abcnews.go.com/International/turkey-set-invade-syria-us-remove-forces-area/story?id=66103777&cid=social_twitter_abcn)

Watch, wait and see.

I had a number of other twitter accounts but I believe the above 3 are highly useful.
Title: U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 07, 2019, 02:26:04 AM
politics
U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
By Josh Wingrove
October 6, 2019, 8:46 PM PDT Updated on October 6, 2019, 10:17 PM PDT

U.S. forces will stand aside when Turkish forces invade northern Syria in the coming days, and Turkey will take responsibility for any Islamic State fighters captured in the region, the White House said late Sunday.

American forces will not be involved when Turkey carries out the incursion that its president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has said in recent days could happen imminently, White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham said in the statement.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-07/white-house-says-u-s-forces-won-t-stop-turkish-move-into-syria (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-07/white-house-says-u-s-forces-won-t-stop-turkish-move-into-syria)

 
Trump Endorses Turkish Military Operation in Syria, Shifting U.S. Policy

Eric Schmitt and Maggie Haberman 26 mins ago

WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.

Turkey considers the Kurdish fighters to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group. But the Kurdish group, known as the Syrian Democratic Forces, or S.D.F., has been the United States’ most reliable partner in fighting the Islamic State in a strategic corner of northern Syria.

Now, Mr. Trump’s decision goes against the recommendations of top officials in the Pentagon and the State Department who have sought to keep a small troop presence in northeast Syria to continue counterinsurgency operations against the Islamic State, or ISIS, and to act as a critical counterweight to Iran and Russia.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-endorses-turkish-military-operation-in-syria-shifting-us-policy/ar-AAIo6dU?ocid=spartanntp (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-endorses-turkish-military-operation-in-syria-shifting-us-policy/ar-AAIo6dU?ocid=spartanntp)

Aug. 9, 2019 | Nordic Monitor | Abdullah Bozkurt

The 12th grade modern history book that is being used in public schools in Turkey is full of anti-American and anti-EU references, mirroring what Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has been preaching at public rallies and meetings.

The 2018 edition, authored by Emrullah Alemdar and Savaş Keles and produced by the government printing office, appears to justify al-Qaeda’s terrorist attacks in the US on September 11, 2001 that killed nearly 3,000 people, brands the European Union as a Christian club led by the pope and criticizes the NATO alliance.

https://christianpersecutionnews.com/turkey-public-school-textbook-in-turkey-justifies-9-11-slams-nato-brands-eu-as-christian-club/ (https://christianpersecutionnews.com/turkey-public-school-textbook-in-turkey-justifies-9-11-slams-nato-brands-eu-as-christian-club/)

Erdogan's Crimes against Humanity
Turkey Bombs Yazidi Homeland
by Uzay Bulut
May 9, 2017 at 4:00 am

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10302/erdogan-crimes (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10302/erdogan-crimes)

I can see why Trump got rid of Bolton.  It is also apparent why he would call Erdogan friend at the U.N.  Turning on our Allies.  Turning on Christians.


Bolton says Iranian tanker in Syrian port

AFP•September 7, 2019

https://news.yahoo.com/bolton-says-iranian-tanker-syrian-port-085809246.html (https://news.yahoo.com/bolton-says-iranian-tanker-syrian-port-085809246.html)

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Bolton+Syria&view=detail&mid=A054F1BF92C3E06167BFA054F1BF92C3E06167BF&FORM=VIRE (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Bolton+Syria&view=detail&mid=A054F1BF92C3E06167BFA054F1BF92C3E06167BF&FORM=VIRE)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Bolton+Syria&&view=detail&mid=95BB7647B7EC828DB05895BB7647B7EC828DB058&rvsmid=A054F1BF92C3E06167BFA054F1BF92C3E06167BF&FORM=VDQVAP (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Bolton+Syria&&view=detail&mid=95BB7647B7EC828DB05895BB7647B7EC828DB058&rvsmid=A054F1BF92C3E06167BFA054F1BF92C3E06167BF&FORM=VDQVAP)

Title: Re: U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 02:41:04 AM
This is already in world news. Learn that there are other forums.
Title: Re: U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
Post by: catfish1957 on October 07, 2019, 03:18:09 AM
This is already in world news. Learn that there are other forums.

Maybe she rather not respond to your threads, since you have no business being a moderator.  I know I typically don't.

Your little condescending responses like this are just half the reason.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 08:37:09 AM
Quote
Date : 2019-10-07 07:01:05
Breaking - Two batches of U.S. Troops have withdrawn from two of their points on the Syrian-Turkish borders.

(http://npasyria.com/en/admin/user_images/850/913392.jpg)

https://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=963&sub_blog=15&name_blog=Breaking%20-%20Two%20batches%20of%20U.S.%20Troops%20have%20withdrawn%20from%20two%20of%20their%20points%20on%20the%20Syrian-Turkish%20borders. (https://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=963&sub_blog=15&name_blog=Breaking%20-%20Two%20batches%20of%20U.S.%20Troops%20have%20withdrawn%20from%20two%20of%20their%20points%20on%20the%20Syrian-Turkish%20borders.)

Lindsay Graham has come out against withdrawal.  No clear answers here yet.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 07, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
So basically we are throwing the Kurds under the bus again. Wasn't  ISIS  supposed to be gone?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 09:34:37 AM
So basically we are throwing the Kurds under the bus again. Wasn't  ISIS  supposed to be gone?

It's a bit more complex than that, we sided with the PKK but I don't like the decision, it stinks no matter who we were or are allied with.

Quote
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
·
12m
ICYMI:
Spoke with @foxandfriends
 this morning about the latest news on Turkey and Syria.

WATCH:
Graham Responds to Latest News on Turkey, Syria
youtube.com
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
·
1h
Also, if this plan goes forward will introduce Senate resolution opposing and asking for reversal of this decision.  Expect it will receive strong bipartisan support.
Show this thread
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
·
1h
* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.
Show this thread
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
·
1h
I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process  of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo.

If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC

Quote
Nikki Haley
@NikkiHaley
·
35m
We must always have the backs of our allies, if we expect them to have our back.  The Kurds were instrumental in our successful fight against ISIS in Syria.  Leaving them to die is a big mistake.  #TurkeyIsNotOurFriend

These two have the right idea. I hope we can reverse this somehow, it doesn't sound like all troops have left yet.  We only have a small contingent there really and they are pretty safe.

Decision sucks, I could probably not vote for Trump with this stupid, idiotic decision.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 07, 2019, 11:23:21 AM
It's a bit more complex than that, we sided with the PKK but I don't like the decision, it stinks no matter who we were or are allied with.

These two have the right idea. I hope we can reverse this somehow, it doesn't sound like all troops have left yet.  We only have a small contingent there really and they are pretty safe.

Decision sucks, I could probably not vote for Trump with this stupid, idiotic decision.


Something tells me he took the advice of Rand Paul.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: catfish1957 on October 07, 2019, 11:29:38 AM

Something tells me he took the advice of Rand Paul.

The Chicom's got to be loving this move.  Taiwan is now that more vulnerable.
Title: Turkish jets attack alleged PKK targets close to Christian village in Kurdistan Region
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2019, 01:44:43 PM
Quote
Kurdistan
Turkish jets attack alleged PKK targets close to Christian village in Kurdistan Region
Hiwa Shilani Hiwa Shilani

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – Turkish bombardment on Sunday targeted alleged Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) positions in the Kurdistan Region’s border areas, damaging agricultural lands near a Christian village.

Turkish jets destroyed farmlands close to a Christian village in the Naheli area of the Amedi district.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/6cbfb4e8-b987-4f8e-b241-84c7c0b177df (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/6cbfb4e8-b987-4f8e-b241-84c7c0b177df)

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 07, 2019, 06:45:49 PM
The Chicom's got to be loving this move.  Taiwan is now that more vulnerable.


I agree..   I bet Russia is likiing this move as well. They want to get the Baltic region back.
Title: Re: Turkish jets attack alleged PKK targets close to Christian village in Kurdistan Region
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2019, 06:50:54 PM
Well that didn't take long.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mountaineer on October 07, 2019, 06:53:35 PM
Quote
Breaking - Two batches of U.S. Troops have withdrawn from two of their points on the Syrian-Turkish borders.
"Batches"? Is that like a platoon? Brigade? Is it bigger than a breadbox?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2019, 06:53:49 PM
So basically we are throwing the Kurds under the bus again. Wasn't  ISIS  supposed to be gone?

@kevindavis that's exactly what we're doing.  There was a report this morning I linked to that was warining of jailbreaks in the area as a result of us retreating would allow up to 10,000 ISIS fighters back out into the wild.

So much for ISIS being crushed.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 07, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
@kevindavis that's exactly what we're doing.  There was a report this morning I linked to that was warining of jailbreaks in the area as a result of us retreating would allow up to 10,000 ISIS fighters back out into the wild.

So much for ISIS being crushed.


@txradioguy I remember on how a lot of people screamed and yelled at Obama for stabbing our allies in the back.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2019, 08:18:45 PM

@txradioguy I remember on how a lot of people screamed and yelled at Obama for stabbing our allies in the back.

I remember that too. Different President...different set of rules.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 05:31:25 AM
Good, found it, folks, in what has happened these past few days and whatever agreement is in place with our backed-forces, the SDF, one key term is the "security mechanismt" which to me, sounds like the SDF rolls back some heavy artillery from the border:


Quote
Home / politics / Date : 2019-10-07 09:55:59
SDF announce their commitment regarding the implementation of security mechanism

2019-10-07 09:55:59
Northern Syria - North-Press Agency
The Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have announced their commitments to implement all it took to remove their military fortifications between Tal Abyad and Ras al-Ain, and to withdraw their heavy weapons based on their confidence in the United States, noting to its concern over the seriousness of the security situation.

Meanwhile, two batches of the U.S. forces have withdrawn, at dawn today, from two of their posts in Ras al-Ain and in Tal Abyad on the Syrian-Turkish borders in northern Syria, in coincidence with Turkish military mobilization in order to assault the area.
The announcement came via a tweet from the Center for Coordination and Military Operations of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), accusing Turkey’s Erdogan of trying to change the "security mechanism" to "the mechanism of death”, stressing that Erdogan's desire to displace the people of north and eastern Syria and turn it into a battlefield.

The SDF considered that the Turkish assault on the region will reverse their successful efforts in defeating the Islamic State group (ISIS), pointing to the loss of 11 thousand fighters of their forces during the five years of war against the terrorist group, which was eliminated last March.

Read more at: https://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=964&sub_blog=10&name_blog=SDF%20announce%20their%20commitment%20regarding%20the%20implementation%20of%20security%20mechanism

So, there is that word "batches", for whatever one picked up on, apparently, our SDF have used that language.

One SDF twitter account is here, if anyone is interested, to keep up with the news:

  Coordinate and Military Ops Center - SDF  (https://twitter.com/cmoc_sdf)

A number of liberals are pouncing on this situation to say "Orange Man bad" and even though, I am not sure, this is all best thought out, maybe it can work.

Editing on,

"Batches"? Is that like a platoon? Brigade? Is it bigger than a breadbox?

Right, apparently, the SDF has used this term. A lot is in the translation I suppose.  "Batches" used above.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 10:13:57 AM
Given the fact that Erdogan has helped ISIS in the past...it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he orders his troops to "rescue" the 10K fighters currently imprisoned.
Title: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 10:16:06 AM
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pitched his tent at New York’s glitzy Peninsula Hotel this week, where he will be dining (but not wining) American Muslim leaders on the sidelines of UN meetings.

During his 2017 New York visit, Erdogan met with then-freshman U.S. Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN). This past July, state-run media chiefs called on Turks around the world to donate to her re-election campaign, which is illegal if they are not U.S. citizens or green-card holders.

But what should disturb Americans most about Erdogan is not his efforts to influence Congress, his abysmal record as a jailer of journalists, his genocidal war against the Kurds, or even the $100 million mosque he has constructed in Lanham, Maryland.

It’s Erdogan’s commitment to global jihad, and specifically, to ISIS terrorists. Since 2012, the Turkish intelligence service, MIT, under Erdogan’s direction, has been providing resources and material assistance to ISIS, while Turkish Customs officials turned a blind eye to ISIS recruits flowing across Turkey’s borders into Syria and Iraq.

Scores of ISIS fighters captured by pro-U.S. Kurdish forces in northern Syria showed Turkish exit stamps on their passports, and otherwise boasted of the direct assistance they had received from Turkish authorities.

“Turkish intelligence knows everything,” one captured ISIS fighter told his Kurdish captors recently.

Many former ISIS fighters have now joined the Turkish-backed forces that have occupied the Syrian Kurdish city of Afrin, where they have engaged in ethnic cleansing.

Two Turkish intelligence officers, captured by Kurdish guerilla fighters in northern Iraq in 2017, provided insider accounts of Turkish government assistance to ISIS and other jihadi groups operating in Syria and Iraq.

<snip>

Sümeyye Erdogan, daughter of the Turkish president, reportedly set up an entire medical corps, including a hospital to treat wounded ISIS fighters in Sanlurfa, a city in Southeastern Turkey close to the Syrian border.

ISIS evacuated severely wounded fighters across the border into Sanliurfa in Turkish army trucks without undergoing Customs inspection.

The evidence of Erdogan’s direct, personal and institutional support for ISIS and related jihadi groups is so extensive, the wonder is why the American media is not paying more attention to it.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/21/why-isnt-the-media-covering-turkish-president-erdogans-ties-to-isis/
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 10:16:49 AM
Quote
Trump Administration Appears to Reverse Syria Decision Following Backlash
An official speaking for the administration pushed back on Trump’s claims the U.S. was withdrawing from Syria.
By Paul D. Shinkman, Senior Writer, National Security Oct. 7, 2019, at 6:04 p.m.

...

The U.S. is not removing its forces from Syria in the face of a Turkish incursion, said the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. Rather, the president ordered roughly 50 special operations troops in northern Syria to relocate to a different part of the country after he learned that Turkey has planned an offensive against U.S.-backed Kurdish forces in Syria. The official said that offensive had not yet begun.

The latest assertion, however, appears to conflict with a flurry of tweets the president issued Monday, further explaining a White House statement late Sunday that first announced the withdrawal, but offered few details.

"It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home," Trump wrote in one tweet.

More: https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2019-10-07/trump-administration-appears-to-reverse-syria-decision-following-backlash (https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2019-10-07/trump-administration-appears-to-reverse-syria-decision-following-backlash)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 10:27:20 AM
Too late.  The time to not retreat and open up the Kurds to attack from Turkey was yesterday.

Today once he's stuck his finger in the wind to see which way it's blowing is NOT the time.
Title: Re: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 10:28:11 AM
Quote
Dutch government debates alleged Turkish support for former ISIS members in Afrin
Wladimir van Wilgenburg

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – Dutch Foreign Minister Stef Blok on Wednesday said his government would not push for a NATO investigation into Turkey’s possible links to the Islamic State after a report alleged 40 former Islamic State militants were among Turkish-backed forces in Afrin.

“Turkey is and remains an important partner in the fight against ISIS, including as a member of the anti-ISIS coalition. Turkey has been seriously affected by ISIS terrorism and is taking action against this,” Blok stated.

Member of the Party for Freedom (PVV), Raymond de Roon, had asked the Dutch government to clarify whether Turkey had trained, recruited and armed former Islamic State members.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/f82026e9-7801-4c81-a18f-964c93621511 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/f82026e9-7801-4c81-a18f-964c93621511)

FWIW, the Dutch investigated this accusation recently. The article does have a "rebuttal" in it as well.
Quote

 In reality, groups like Jaysh-al-Islam and Ahrar-al-Sham who now form key components in the Turkish armed, funded and controlled forces occupying Afrin are ideologically indistinguishable from ISIS,” she argued.

So, yes, this has been in the mix for some time. I don't think there would be a lot of debate that Turkey at the least, has aided other Islamic groups.


https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/f82026e9-7801-4c81-a18f-964c93621511 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/f82026e9-7801-4c81-a18f-964c93621511)
Title: Re: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 10:36:00 AM
The question posed in my OP has to do with why the American media is ignoring it.

I don't personally give a rats @ss about whether the Dutch are talking about it or not.  They are such a small player in NATO and on the world stage where fighting terrorism in concerned they don't matter on the larger stage/

It's a typical ploy from the American media...if they ignore it and don't report on it...it never happened.


And the Post is spot on in asking why there's no curiousity from the MSM on Turkey's support of Terrorism.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 11:41:31 AM
Quote
Middle East
Kurdistan’s Barzani in contact with ‘several channels’ in defense of Syrian Kurds
Kosar Nawzad Kosar Nawzad |

(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/masud-b-archive.JPG)
Senior Kurdish leader and head of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) Masoud Barzani. (Photo: Archive)
Kurdistan Syria Turkey Ankara SDF YPG


ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – Senior Kurdish leader Masoud Barzani on Tuesday expressed worries about the fate of Syrian Kurds in the face of an imminent Turkish invasion into their territories, noting that the Kurdistan Region was in contact with “several channels” in the people’s defense.

“We are very concerned about the recent developments in Western Kurdistan,” Barzani wrote in a tweet, referring to the part of Syria predominantly populated by Kurds, who also commonly use Rojava (Western) Kurdistan to refer to their region.

“We are in contact with several channels and we will do our utmost to ensure that the people of Rojava are not subjected to any more disasters,” the tweet concluded.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/6c9614f5-bf4c-44e0-9bb8-fdfb303d050e (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/6c9614f5-bf4c-44e0-9bb8-fdfb303d050e)

Unfortunately, this is another thing, we leave, they might make a deal with Assad and Putin, in fact, this is why some accuse Trump of acting in Putin's interest here.

This can't be a good thing either.

I don't know first hand, Charles Lister seems to be a decent journalist and he was raving on about how the main problem in Syria, even with ISIS there, has been Assad.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister (https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister)

Some good or at least, stimulating comment.  Personally, I wonder if he can speak Arabic, anyway, one can agree with him or not, imho, he's insightful.
Quote
"Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
·
Oct 7
#pt: There's no doubt that #Turkey is a troublesome actor - but much of that "trouble" is a result of our relationship with the #YPG.

Never once during #Obama times did the U.S. adjust its policy to meaningfully address #Ankara's concerns.

We determinedly dug our own hole."

And some people have told me that this American is "Qatar-funded" so just posting, no endorsement, seems decent though, like Wladimar.

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg)

ISIS was so terrible, I think it was a situation of just finding anyone who could help fight against them.  I don't see that Kurd group PKK as being that bad... the whole thing is convoluted because there is also the Kurd group YPG, People's protection units. It gets pretty involved.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 11:53:15 AM
The different Kurdish regions are gonna have to band together right now in mutual support.

No one else has their backs it appears.
Title: Re: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: kevindavis on October 08, 2019, 12:08:34 PM
Time to kick Turkey out of NATO.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 12:10:50 PM
Quote
World News
October 8, 2019
White House says Turkey's Erdogan to visit November 13

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan will visit the United States on Nov. 13 at the invitation of U.S. President Donald Trump, a White House spokesman said on Tuesday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-erdogan/white-house-says-turkeys-erdogan-to-visit-november-13-idUSKBN1WN1RU (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-erdogan/white-house-says-turkeys-erdogan-to-visit-november-13-idUSKBN1WN1RU)

Quick read, anyway, I will say it again, we don't want the Kurds, SDF to feel abandoned that they cut deals with Assad and Putin.  Maybe that's Neo-Connish but as the above Charles Lister says, over 5 years, a lot of progress has been made to just sort of throw it away in that manner.

Title: Re: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: jpsb on October 08, 2019, 12:51:42 PM
Time to kick Turkey out of NATO.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Why isn’t the media covering Turkish President Erdogan’s ties to ISIS
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2019, 12:56:59 PM
Time to kick Turkey out of NATO.

They used to be a fairly reliable ally.  Then Erdogan came in and began to turn a thriving secular country into a Shria Law Islamic state that doesn't want to work with the other NATO allies and is helping ISIS.

I agree time for them to go.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 02:32:42 PM
General Votel, who worked with the Kurds over there, is co-author. I believe, he has retired since, only this year.

Quote
The Danger of Abandoning Our Partners
Joseph Votel, Elizabeth Dent

The abrupt policy decision to seemingly abandon our Kurdish partners could not come at a worse time. The decision was made without consulting U.S. allies or senior U.S. military leadership and threatens to affect future partnerships at precisely the time we need them most, given the war-weariness of the American public coupled with ever more sophisticated enemies determined to come after us.

In northeastern Syria, we had one of the most successful partnerships. The Islamic State was using Syria as a sanctuary to support its operations in Iraq and globally, including by hosting and training foreign fighters. We had to go after ISIS quickly and effectively. The answer came in the form of a small band of Kurdish forces pinned up against the Turkish border and fighting for their lives against ISIS militants in the Syrian town of Kobane in 2014.

We had tried many other options first. The U.S. initially worked to partner with moderate Syrian rebel groups, investing $500 million in a train-and-equip program to build their capabilities to fight against ISIS in Syria. That endeavor failed, save for a small force in southeastern Syria near the American al-Tanf base, which began as a U.S. outpost to fight ISIS and remains today as a deterrent against Iran. So we turned to Turkey to identify alternative groups, but the Pentagon found that the force Turkey had trained was simply inadequate and would require tens of thousands of U.S. troops to bolster it in battle. With no public appetite for a full-scale U.S. ground invasion, we were forced to look elsewhere.

Read more at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/danger-abandoning-our-partners/599632/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/danger-abandoning-our-partners/599632/)

Pretty good "keeper" article here.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 04:33:57 PM
 Joyce Karam  (https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam) wrote:

Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
UPDATE: US - #Syria - Turkey

• US Blocks Turkey from Airspace
• White House WALKS BACK Trump Withdrawal comment
• US moving troops away from Turkey path but staying in Syria

• Mitch McConnell & Pelosi both criticize Trump approach

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1181318847787352064

Okay, I had not heard of that first one about blocking Turkey from airspace. So, see, there's a lot to learn....so, for me, one of the best things to do, is try and find a reliable source at the least. Still? What she  reported overall, doesn't look too good.

Karam is a professor additionally in DC, I think she is actually a Christian from somewhere over there.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 04:45:16 PM
Another article, no endorsement:

Quote

Yes, Donald Trump Dumped the Kurds (And We Should Not Be Shocked)

[The National Interest]  Ted Galen Carpenter •October 7, 2019

resident Trump has apparently decided to make a major shift in Washington’s policy regarding the Syrian Kurds. Instead of opposing Turkey’s use of force to clear out Kurdish- controlled territory in northern Syria, Washington now seems willing to step aside. That move would be a rather cynical betrayal of the Kurds, but not a surprising one.

Until now, Trump had largely continued the Obama administration’s policy of regarding Kurdish forces as useful military allies in Syria’s violent, multi-sided internecine conflict. In particular, Kurdish militias were quite effective in inflicting defeats on ISIS and other jihadi forces in northeastern Syria. The United States provided funding, training, and weaponry to Kurdish units, and seemed willing to look the other way as the Kurds pursued their political goal of establishing a de facto autonomous region in northern Syria similar to the entity their brethren in Iraq have maintained since the early 1990s.

...

Read more at: https://news.yahoo.com/yes-donald-trump-dumped-kurds-000000464.html

Another good read, despite the depressing title, Hey! Who knew this from the article:

Quote
In 1973, President Richard Nixon made a secret agreement with the Shah of Iran to begin providing covert financial and military support to Kurds in Iraq who had launched an insurgency against Saddam Hussein, seeking to establish an independent Kurdistan in northern Iraq. (Saddam had angered U.S. leaders earlier that year by signing a Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation with Moscow.) Kurdish officials conducted planning sessions in Washington with the Central Intelligence Agency, and CIA agents assisted Kurdish Peshmerga militia units to harass Saddam’s forces.

That's something, I can envisage Saddam was around back then but still, and Nixon was president at the time and acted?  That's pretty long ago but Gaddafy came to power around 1968-69. So, it shouldn't be that surprising.
Title: Turkey says it will cross into Syria 'shortly,' issues warning to Kurdish fighters
Post by: mystery-ak on October 08, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
Turkey says it will cross into Syria 'shortly,' issues warning to Kurdish fighters
By Tal Axelrod - 10/08/19 08:05 PM EDT

The Turkish government said Tuesday that it will cross into northeastern Syria "shortly," and issued a warning to local Kurdish forces.

“The Turkish military, together with the Free Syrian Army, will cross the Turkish-Syrian border shortly. YPG militants have two options: They can defect or we will have [to] stop them from disrupting our counter-ISIS efforts,” Turkish government spokesperson Fahrettin Altun tweeted, referring to the Kurdish militia that has worked closely with the U.S. in the fight against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS).

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/464949-turkey-says-it-will-cross-into-syria-shortly
Title: Re: Turkey says it will cross into Syria 'shortly,' issues warning to Kurdish fighters
Post by: jpsb on October 08, 2019, 09:04:49 PM
LOL, Turkey armed and trained ISIS fighter. F Turkey
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 11:22:32 PM
Quote
Middle East
Syrian Kurdish military leadership says Turkish attack is imminent
Wladimir van Wilgenburg
(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/SyriaTurkeyTank.jpg)
A Turkish army's tank drives down from a truck as Turkish armed forces drive towards the border with Syria near Akcakale in Sanliurfa province on October 8, 2019. (Photo: Bulent Kilic/AFP via Getty Images)

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in a statement early on Wednesday warned that all signs indicate that the Turkish army and its allied forces would soon attack SDF points at the border.

“The border areas of northeast Syria are on the edge of a possible humanitarian catastrophe,” the General Command of the SDF said.

“All indications, field information, and military assembly on the Turkish side of the border indicate that our border areas will be attacked by Turkey in cooperation with Syrian opposition tied to Turkey.”

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/222fcae2-8fce-4810-9d87-76772c75ed59 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/222fcae2-8fce-4810-9d87-76772c75ed59)

Quote
World
Noam Chomsky says US should stay in Syria to protect the Kurds
Wladimir van Wilgenburg     October 03-2018
(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2018/10/ChomskyGuardianGraemeRobertson-2.jpg)
The famous philosopher, linguist, thinker, political activist, historian, and author, Noam Chomsky. (Photo: Guardian/Graeme Roberston)

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – The US should stay in northern Syria to deter attacks against Syrian Kurds, well-known American linguist and political activist Noam Chomsky said in an interview with the Intercept last week.

“The other crucial question is the status of the Kurdish areas — Rojava. In my opinion, it makes sense for the United States to maintain a presence which would deter an attack on the Kurdish areas,” he said.

Chomsky noted that the Kurds have “succeeded in sustaining a functioning society with many decent elements” in Syria’s north.

https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/13cf816e-8e40-41c8-bb76-d453a3261d8b (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/13cf816e-8e40-41c8-bb76-d453a3261d8b)

Quote
Syria Kurds, Assad regime hint at partnership against Turkish threat
Karwan Faidhi Dri

ERBIL, Kurdistan Region – Threatened by an imminent Turkish invasion from the north following Monday’s US withdrawal from the Syria-Turkey border, Syria’s Kurds and the regime of Bashar al-Assad in Damascus have separately hinted at possible coordination.

US President Donald Trump appeared to greenlight a long-threatened Turkish operation against the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in northern Syria on Sunday night, despite the SDF’s role as America’s key ally in the ground war against the Islamic State group (ISIS). 

Ankara, a long-time backer of Syria’s armed opposition, appears primed and ready to invade territories east of the Euphrates River, where Kurds have built an autonomous administration of their own – independent of the Syrian regime.

Turkey considers the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) – the backbone of the SDF – as the Syrian offshoot of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), an armed group fighting the Turkish state for political and cultural rights for Kurds.

https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/081020192 (https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/081020192)

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2019, 11:41:09 PM
Quote

Washington asserts “no green light for Turkey”, conspiracy talk rising in Baghdad

Washington has stressed that Trump's decision to withdraw troops does not mean a withdrawal from Syria and to give Turkey the green light to launch attacks on northern and eastern Syria, while Trump threatened to destroy Turkey's economy if it crossed the border, and conspiracy talk" is rising in Baghdad.

(https://www.hawarnews.com/en//uploads//2019/10/08/073843_rojnami.jpg)
WORLD-Middle East 08 Oct 2019, Tue - 10:37 2019-10-08T10:37:00 NEWS DESK

The Arab press- this morning- dealt with the Syrian situation, in addition to the Iraqi demonstrations and the battles in Libya.

Al-Bayan: Washington: Trump's decision to withdraw troops does not represent a withdrawal from Syria

Arab newspapers published this morning on the Syrian issue several topics, most notably the Turkish threats to launch attacks on the north and east of Syria, in this context, the statement said "a senior US official on Monday noted that President Donald Trump's decision to withdraw US troops stationed in Syria near the Turkish border only about 50 to 100 special forces soldiers "will be transferred to other bases" inside Syria.

"This is not about a withdrawal from Syria," the official said, stressing that the redeployment does not in any way give a "green light" to a Turkish military operation against Kurdish forces in northeastern Syria.

Read more at: https://www.hawarnews.com/en//haber/washington-asserts-no-green-light-for-turkey-conspiracy-talk-rising-in-baghdad-h11869.html (https://www.hawarnews.com/en//haber/washington-asserts-no-green-light-for-turkey-conspiracy-talk-rising-in-baghdad-h11869.html)

 :shrug:  Sure got our signals crossed on this, well, if Turkey invades, it could happen at any time, it could be a bit of a bluff too but, I wouldn't think so. They probably will act in the next 24 hours I'd say.

One Kurd news agency said 100 ISIS fighters attacked Raqqa (the former ISIS capital in Syria).... but we'll see when the real news starts coming in.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 05:56:51 AM
Quote
Wladimir
@vvanwilgenburg
It seems the US forces on the ground are in solidarity with the SDF. Although they had to remove the tweet later (1)

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1181868433933291521

Quote
NORTH PRESS AGENCY
@NPA_SY
#BREAKING:
A U.S. patrol of six armored vehicles headed to the city of Kobani, to prevent any possible military attack, there.

https://twitter.com/NPA_SY/status/1181867750400114689

Quote
Coordination & Military Ops Center - SDF
@cmoc_sdf
·
10h
BREAKING NEWS:
#Daesh takes advantage of Imminent #Turkish invasion
3x #ISIS suicide bombings on our military positions in Raqqa, clashes still ongoing

https://twitter.com/cmoc_sdf/status/1181707512577441792

Yes, looks like ISIS/Daesh hit Raqqa per the previous post.  And are exploiting the confusion that is going on.

Quote
CNW
@ConflictsW
A number of ISIS militants are exploiting the new security situation in North East Syria and have launched a massive attack in Raqqa and are attempting to take control of the city from within. Gun battles between the SDF and ISIS are taking place in the streets
#Syria #Turkey

https://twitter.com/ConflictsW/status/1181714476040622081

Really, some of the other bigger powers should have stepped in, if we are stepping down...
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 06:59:41 AM
Then, there is this angle, some "Trump Tower" in Istanbul and before going further, the Trump towers in Istanbul have more of a "licensing agreement", not exactly "Trump" ownership, read about it  here.  (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Towers_Istanbul) I had a few days ago, the Trump organization website but in the meantime, maybe that will inform one.

Newsweek:

(http://Politics[size=12pt][b]Ivanka Tweet Thanking Turkey's Erdogan for Attending Istanbul Trump Towers Launch Re-Emerges Amid Syria Controversy[/b][/size]By David Brennan On 10/7/19 at 8:11 AM EDT ...But on Sunday, the president abruptly announced that American troops would not stand in the way of a Turkish military offensive against the Kurds, despite earlier suggestions that the U.S. would look out for Kurdish interests.As the world reacted to America's sudden abandonment of its most trusted and effective local allies, a tweet from Trump's daughter Ivanka resurfaced, detailing a relevant conflict of interest regarding relations with Turkey."Thank you Prime Minister Erdogan for joining us yesterday to celebrate the launch of #TrumpTowers Istanbul!" Ivanka wrote in April 2012. The construction—made up of two conjoined towers—is one of seven current Trump Towers locations.Read more at: [url=https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trump-tweet-thanking-turkey-erdogan-attending-istanbul-trump-towers-launch-syria-controversy-1463536]https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trump-tweet-thanking-turkey-erdogan-attending-istanbul-trump-towers-launch-syria-controversy-1463536[/url])

The left, Mojo:

Quote
Reminder: Trump Has a Massive Conflict of Interest in Turkey
Why a Trump real estate deal is relevant to his decision to abandon the Kurds.
    Russ Choma   Reporter

Late Sunday night, the Trump administration announced that US troops would be pulling back from their positions northern Syria, allowing Turkey to move into a region controlled by Kurdish forces that had fought with the US against ISIS. Trump’s announcement is a big win for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and it has already enraged many in American national security circles—including Trump allies—who say it reverses years of US policy. Kurdish leaders are being more blunt, saying it qualifies as a betrayal.
“I have a little conflict of interest ’cause I have a major, major building in Istanbul.”

Whatever else it may be, Trump’s policy toward Turkey is also a significant conflict of interest, as Trump himself has admitted. In 2015, while running for president, Trump gave an interview to Stephen Bannon, not yet his campaign manager, in which he talked about Turkey. Right away, he admitted that his business interests in the country would make it difficult for him to deal with Turkey with a clear mind.

“I have a little conflict of interest ’cause I have a major, major building in Istanbul,” Trump told Bannon during a Breitbart radio show. “It’s a tremendously successful job. It’s called Trump Towers—two towers, instead of one, not the usual one, it’s two.”

Read more at: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/10/reminder-trump-has-a-massive-conflict-of-interest-in-turkey/ (https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/10/reminder-trump-has-a-massive-conflict-of-interest-in-turkey/)

I brushed off concern, but I wonder....  he should know better and stay away from this.

So, from fees, $900,000 a year he seems to bring in from this.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 07:26:59 AM
Reportedly, can't tell how solid a lot of this information really is:

Quote
EHA News
@eha_news

#BREAKING #Turkish Troops Are Now Crossing Into #Syria, Government Official tells Bloomberg

https://twitter.com/eha_news/status/1181847421149749248 (https://twitter.com/eha_news/status/1181847421149749248)

Quote
Syrian Christians to US: ‘Don’t Abandon Us Now’
After surviving a civil war and ISIS attacks, the Christian minority fears a Turkish takeover in Kurdish border region.

Jayson Casper
October 08, 2019 12:31 PM

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/october/syrian-christians-kurds-us-withdrawal-turkey.html (https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/october/syrian-christians-kurds-us-withdrawal-turkey.html)

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 08:41:57 AM
Sumbodie riddle me this.

Isn't the whole PURPOSE of the United Nations to hold a united front to keep nations from invading each other,and to insure peace?

IF it is,WHY are US and other western troops there patrolling,or doing anything else? If the UN would do what it is SUPPOSED to do,they could stop the fighting by placing immediate embargoes on tourism,foreign aid,and trade with any nation that invades another by proxy or using their troops.

If the UN is going to be this ineffective,maybe we should shut down our cash flow to the UN until and unless they start doing what they were formed to do?

In this day of drones,electronic listening,electronic banking,etc,etc,etc,it is impossible for anyone to hide where the weapons,food,and fighters are coming from,and sanctions CAN be put on those nations. There is no need to add further deaths and tragedy to an already bad situation when we already have the power and the ability to shut this crap down with just a few key strokes.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 08:46:44 AM
Sumbodie riddle me this.

Isn't the whole PURPOSE of the United Nations to hold a united front to keep nations from invading each other,and to insure peace?

IF it is,WHY are US and other western troops there patrolling,or doing anything else? If the UN would do what it is SUPPOSED to do,they could stop the fighting by placing immediate embargoes on tourism,foreign aid,and trade with any nation that invades another by proxy or using their troops.

If the UN is going to be this ineffective,maybe we should shut down our cash flow to the UN until and unless they start doing what they were formed to do?

In this day of drones,electronic listening,electronic banking,etc,etc,etc,it is impossible for anyone to hide where the weapons,food,and fighters are coming from,and sanctions CAN be put on those nations. There is no need to add further deaths and tragedy to an already bad situation when we already have the power and the ability to shut this crap down with just a few key strokes.

Because the UN is as corrupt and thuggish as any third world dictatorship. The only reason they’ve still got any credibility and/or legitimacy left is because of the US and a handful of other nations.
Title: Re: U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 08:48:00 AM
politics
U.S. Forces Won’t Stop Turkish Move Into Syria, White House Says
By Josh Wingrove
October 6, 2019, 8:46 PM PDT Updated on October 6, 2019, 10:17 PM PDT

 
 
Quote
Trump Endorses Turkish Military Operation in Syria, Shifting U.S. Policy

Not true. Trump did NOT "endorse" anything.


Not our zoo,not our monkeys. 

Let the UN handle it by shutting down trade to and from the warring nations.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: jpsb on October 09, 2019, 08:49:07 AM
Reportedly, can't tell how solid a lot of this information really is:

Sadly it looks like Trump screwed not only the Syrian Kurds but the Syrian Christians too.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 08:50:44 AM
Lindsay Graham has come out against withdrawal.  No clear answers here yet.

@TomSea

No surprise there. Lady Lindsey likes the contributions to his campaigns that comes from being obedient.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 08:52:55 AM
So basically we are throwing the Kurds under the bus again. Wasn't  ISIS  supposed to be gone?

@kevindavis

"WE"????? What's this "we" crap? Are you pregnant?

The US is NOT the world's daddy.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 08:53:07 AM
Sadly it looks like Trump screwed not only the Syrian Kurds but the Syrian Christians too.

Yup. Turkish military forces have crossed the border into Syria.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 08:54:56 AM
@kevindavis

"WE"????? What's this "we" crap? Are you pregnant?

The US is NOT the world's daddy.

So it’s ok in your mind to just screw over an ally and leave them to be slaughtered by a sworn enemy?

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 09:01:41 AM
The different Kurdish regions are gonna have to band together right now in mutual support.

No one else has their backs it appears.

@txradioguy

You mean they are going to have to be willing to fight and die to protect themselves?

WOW! What a novel concept!
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 09:05:47 AM
Turkish tanks mass on Syrian border in preparation for assault on Kurds
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/turkish-tanks-mass-on-syrian-border-in-preparation-for-assault-on-kurds (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/turkish-tanks-mass-on-syrian-border-in-preparation-for-assault-on-kurds)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 09:07:38 AM


'I'm going to throw up': Graham slams Trump for 'putting the nation at risk'
by Caitlin Yilek
 | October 09, 2019 08:39 AM



Sen. Lindsey Graham said President Trump was risking the safety of the nation as well as putting his presidency on the line with his decision to withdraw troops from northern Syria.

Graham, who has been an ally of the president, told Axios that Trump’s Syria decision was “putting the nation at risk” and “putting his presidency at risk.”

“And I hope he will adjust his policies like he did before. That would actually be a sign of real leadership,” Graham said Tuesday. "If I hear the president say one more time, 'I made a campaign promise to get out of Syria,' I'm going to throw up.”

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/im-going-to-throw-up-graham-slams-trump-for-putting-the-nation-at-risk (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/im-going-to-throw-up-graham-slams-trump-for-putting-the-nation-at-risk)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 09:11:52 AM
Trump says 50 US troops removed from northern Syria
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464967-trump-says-50-us-troops-removed-from-northern-syria


Trump faces growing GOP revolt on Syria
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464942-trump-faces-growing-gop-revolt-on-syria
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 09:15:34 AM
This is different though, than say Papua New Guinea Indonesia and Sudan, we are not going into these hot spots because we haven't been there. But we have been in Iraq and Syria.

Also, let's not forget how Trump called Obama and Clinton "founders of ISIS" because of how we withdrew, well, we have a similar situation on our hands with this.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 09:15:36 AM
So it’s ok in your mind to just screw over an ally and leave them to be slaughtered by a sworn enemy?

@txradioguy

So,it's ok in your mind for US taxpayers to pay the bills and for US military members to be killed or disabled for life in order for the US to do the job of the UN?

We are NOT the "Worlds Daddy". Our own borders are being invaded every day by an army of foreigners who seem intent on bankrupting our nation. If nothing else,we could use those troops to protect our OWN damn borders!
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
Trump: Europe Won't Help, and We’re Not Going to Hold Thousands of ISIS Fighters at Guantanamo Bay
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/trump-europe-wont-help-and-were-not-going-hold-thousands-isis (https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/trump-europe-wont-help-and-were-not-going-hold-thousands-isis)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: XenaLee on October 09, 2019, 09:17:21 AM
Trump says 50 US troops removed from northern Syria
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464967-trump-says-50-us-troops-removed-from-northern-syria


Trump faces growing GOP revolt on Syria
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/464942-trump-faces-growing-gop-revolt-on-syria

Ah.... there's that number "50" again.   Not 100, not 150, not 1,000.   

So how the hell can Trump's order, removing that few soldiers, make suck a stink?   Anybody?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 09:19:58 AM
Plans for this, I've got to think should have been made since last December when we were going to withdraw to begin with, we were trying to invite other nations in. That might be part of this scenario though, I"m making no excuses for this. Just saying. Did the Brits, French, Germans take up the slack?

I think some Brit troops in the area, SAS are in fact, moving out of this place as well.

I can appreciate the complexities.  Could it end up as an outright conflict between Turkey and us? Just saying but in general, I'd go with Cruz, Rubio, Graham and many others being against what we are doing.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: jpsb on October 09, 2019, 09:23:35 AM

'I'm going to throw up': Graham slams Trump for 'putting the nation at risk'
by Caitlin Yilek
 | October 09, 2019 08:39 AM



Sen. Lindsey Graham said President Trump was risking the safety of the nation as well as putting his presidency on the line with his decision to withdraw troops from northern Syria.

Graham, who has been an ally of the president, told Axios that Trump’s Syria decision was “putting the nation at risk” and “putting his presidency at risk.”

“And I hope he will adjust his policies like he did before. That would actually be a sign of real leadership,” Graham said Tuesday. "If I hear the president say one more time, 'I made a campaign promise to get out of Syria,' I'm going to throw up.”

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/im-going-to-throw-up-graham-slams-trump-for-putting-the-nation-at-risk (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/im-going-to-throw-up-graham-slams-trump-for-putting-the-nation-at-risk)

Green lighting Turkey to invade Syria was a huge unforced error and it is going to cost Trump a lot of support from the right. It might
very well cost him the 2020 election. When millions of Christians stay home. I've never seen a president make such a bone headed
move. This is worse then Kennedy not supplying air support during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 09:33:02 AM
@txradioguy

So,it's ok in your mind for US taxpayers to pay the bills and for US military members to be killed or disabled for life in order for the US to do the job of the UN?

We are NOT the "Worlds Daddy". Our own borders are being invaded every day by an army of foreigners who seem intent on bankrupting our nation. If nothing else,we could use those troops to protect our OWN damn borders!

We’re not doing the job of the UN here Pete. Not that I’ll ever be able to make you understand that.

I would think that you above a phone else here would understand why people are upset over abandoning an ally on the battlefield is so horrible after what our government did by abandoning S Vietnam to get slaughtered by the North when our government cut off funding.

But I guess you just too bitter these days with life in general to see this situation rationally.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 09:37:24 AM
@txradioguy

You mean they are going to have to be willing to fight and die to protect themselves?

WOW! What a novel concept!

Whatever Pete. I guess your view on screwing over allies depends on who is in office.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
If Noam Chomsky says we should stay that's a clear sign we should be outta there.

And Cruz says we should stay, so how about that?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 09, 2019, 09:53:20 AM
Sumbodie riddle me this.

Isn't the whole PURPOSE of the United Nations to hold a united front to keep nations from invading each other,and to insure peace?

IF it is,WHY are US and other western troops there patrolling,or doing anything else? If the UN would do what it is SUPPOSED to do,they could stop the fighting by placing immediate embargoes on tourism,foreign aid,and trade with any nation that invades another by proxy or using their troops.

If the UN is going to be this ineffective,maybe we should shut down our cash flow to the UN until and unless they start doing what they were formed to do?

In this day of drones,electronic listening,electronic banking,etc,etc,etc,it is impossible for anyone to hide where the weapons,food,and fighters are coming from,and sanctions CAN be put on those nations. There is no need to add further deaths and tragedy to an already bad situation when we already have the power and the ability to shut this crap down with just a few key strokes.


Cause the UN is more interested in having Climate summits than stopping wars.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 10:00:42 AM
I believe that in this case Cruz is also incorrect.

 **nononono*
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
**nononono*

I know we disagree on this.  But, we are not there to protect the Kurds, and they have existed in conflict with their neighbors for long before we were there.  We should have left long ago, after our mission there was complete. 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 10:16:27 AM
I know we disagree on this.  But, we are not there to protect the Kurds, and they have existed in conflict with their neighbors for long before we were there.  We should have left long ago, after our mission there was complete.

This isn't about a centuries old conflict between the Kurds and the Turks...I don't care how many times i have to repeat that...it's the truth.

This is about right and wrong.  It's about abandoning an ally in the face of a military force that's going to slaughter them.

And what about the ISIS fighters that will be back on the battlefield?  The Turks have been materially assisting ISIS for about 5 years now.  YOu don't think they'll "accidentially" cause a jailbreak to free those fighters?

Ther's not a person here that wouldn't have shouted to the high heavens about this being an atrocit had Obama done the same thing...wait he did...and we were all pissed.

Now it's Trump doing it and suddenly its ok?  Is it going to be ok when Trump starts back tracking from his tough talk on the Iranians?  Don't laugh or scoff at that because with Rand Paul now in his ear on foreign policy matters...it's gonna happen.  I mean Trump is already parroting Pauls line about "endless wars".

The other thing no one has thought about is that the Dems will now be able to smear Trump with allowing a genocide to happen by allowing Turey to attack the Kurds.

But what the hell...it's just the Kurds...the groups that's helped us fight terrorism in that region for almsot two decdes...no biggy right?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 10:33:38 AM
Again, I don't know if I said this earlier, Trump has called Hillary and Obama "founders of ISIS" because of our withdrawal in 2011 I think. Graham was talking about repeating the same mistake. They are "similar" types of situations, not the exact same situation.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
@txradioguy what was our mission in Syria?
Title: Turkey launches airstrikes on northern Syria after Trumps pulls back U.S. troops
Post by: libertybele on October 09, 2019, 10:37:35 AM
Turkey launches airstrikes on northern Syria after Trumps pulls back U.S. troops

Turkey launched a military operation Wednesday against Kurdish fighters in northeastern Syria after U.S. forces withdrew from the area. Activists reported airstrikes on a town on Syria's northern border and a Kurdish official said warplanes targeted civilians, causing a "huge panic."

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced the start of the campaign, which followed an announcement Sunday by U.S. President Donald Trump that American troops would step aside in a shift in U.S. policy that essentially abandoned the Syrian Kurds. They were longtime U.S. allies in the fight against ISIS..........

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkey-invades-syria-turkish-president-erdogan-announces-military-operation-today-2019-10-09/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkey-invades-syria-turkish-president-erdogan-announces-military-operation-today-2019-10-09/)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 10:43:09 AM
@txradioguy what was our mission in Syria?

Supporting and traiing freedom fighters against the Syrian regime...fighting ISIS as well since their "caliphate" had expanded from Iraq into Syria.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 10:46:27 AM
Supporting and traiing freedom fighters against the Syrian regime...fighting ISIS as well since their "caliphate" had expanded from Iraq into Syria.

Unfortunately, it is not at all clear what the mission was, or even if there was one.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 10:48:12 AM
Unfortunately, it is not at all clear what the mission was, or even if there was one.

@Sanguine

It is and was...but unfortuneately our media and elected politicians don't do their damn job in explaining it to the people.  Better to keep it unclear inthe minds of civilians incase a politican or journalist has to jump to the other side of the issue.  Or in the case of Obama...backtrack from your "line in the sand."

Quote
The American-led intervention in the Syrian Civil War refers to the United States-led support of Syrian opposition and the Federation of Northern Syria during the course of the Syrian Civil War and active military involvement led by the United States and its allies — the militaries of the United Kingdom, France, Jordan, Turkey, Canada, Australia and more — against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and al-Nusra Front since 2014. Since early 2017, the U.S. and other Coalition partners have also targeted the Syrian government and its allies via airstrikes and aircraft shoot-downs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American-led_intervention_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War[/quote]
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 10:54:50 AM
@Sanguine  Remind me of how persecuted Christians were before Bush and Obama in that region?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 10:57:12 AM
@Sanguine  Remind me of how persecuted Christians were before Bush and Obama in that region?

And now comes the defense of Saddam and Assad because of how they allegedly protected Christians in the area.

Color me shocked.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 11:00:27 AM
I thought it was posted, there was a no-fly zone per Joyce Karam. That at the moment, does not appear to be the case.

Everything said per my view, is on limited knowledge. The Turks have 3.6 Syrian refugees, so they do have some valid points on this conflict from their view.

We, I will say I don't know for a fact, that this will all turn out bad.

Graham tweeting on this plenty:

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 11:00:59 AM
Hey Tom...Mussolini made the trains run on time too.  I guess we shouldn't ahve ousted him from Italy either huh?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 11:01:30 AM

But I guess you just too bitter these days with life in general to see this situation rationally.

@txradioguy

One of us seems to be.

We can't even protect our OWN damn borders,and here we are sending troops all over the world to help others protect themselves??????

Not our zoos,not our monkeys.
Title: Re: Turkey launches airstrikes on northern Syria after Trumps pulls back U.S. troops
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 09, 2019, 11:02:15 AM
Shameful.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 11:04:34 AM
Whatever Pete. I guess your view on screwing over allies depends on who is in office.

@txradioguy

Guessing seems to be all you are capable of doing. MOST people understand that being allies is a two-way street. The ONLY way America benefits from this is by keeping cash rolling into the defense industry and the union jobs they provide in mostly Dim states.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 11:05:35 AM
@txradioguy

One of us seems to be.

We can't even protect our OWN damn borders,and here we are sending troops all over the world to help others protect themselves??????

Not our zoos,not our monkeys.

You sound exaclty like the 60's anti war protestors who despsied you and your sacrifice in Vietnam.


"hey man what did they ever do to us...we shouldn't be there....it's not our fight..."  **nononono*
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 11:06:37 AM
@txradioguy

Guessing seems to be all you are capable of doing. MOST people understand that being allies is a two-way street. The ONLY way America benefits from this is by keeping cash rolling into the defense industry and the union jobs they provide in mostly Dim states.

Thats bullshit and you know it.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 11:30:24 AM
Hey Tom...Mussolini made the trains run on time too.  I guess we shouldn't ahve ousted him from Italy either huh?

We wouldn't have had they not thrown their lot in with Germany.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 11:31:30 AM
You sound exaclty like the 60's anti war protestors who despsied you and your sacrifice in Vietnam.


"hey man what did they ever do to us...we shouldn't be there....it's not our fight..."  **nononono*

It's NOT our fight.  What compelling national interest do we have there?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: catfish1957 on October 09, 2019, 11:36:47 AM
So it’s ok in your mind to just screw over an ally and leave them to be slaughtered by a sworn enemy?

God, I hope I am never in a fox hole with Pete.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 11:39:33 AM
You sound exaclty like the 60's anti war protestors who despsied you and your sacrifice in Vietnam.


"hey man what did they ever do to us...we shouldn't be there....it's not our fight..."  **nononono*

@txradioguy

Uhhh,we were fighting against the spread of communism them,backed by both China and the USSR.

We don't even PRETEND to be fighting against the spread of Islam today. Hell,we are importing them,putting them in public housing,giving them money and food stamps,and treating them like a protected species.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 11:40:52 AM
Thats bullshit and you know it.

@txradioguy

No,it's factual,and the fact that you DON'T know it is surprising.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
@txradioguy

Uhhh,we were fighting against the spread of communism them,backed by both China and the USSR.

We don't even PRETEND to be fighting against the spread of Islam today. Hell,we are importing them,putting them in public housing,giving them money and food stamps,and treating them like a protected species.

Whatever you have to do to justify your hypocrisy on this Pete.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 09, 2019, 12:13:51 PM
Yup. Turkish military forces have crossed the border into Syria.

And this is how you form a three mile buffer for your nation's borders.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 09, 2019, 12:15:34 PM
Supporting and traiing freedom fighters against the Syrian regime...fighting ISIS as well since their "caliphate" had expanded from Iraq into Syria.

We were not fighting against the Syrian regime.  We were fighting ISIS in Syria.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
We were not fighting against the Syrian regime.  We were fighting ISIS in Syria.

Go back and this time actually read what I wrote.  I didn't say the U.S. was fighting Syria.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:22:15 PM
God, I hope I am never in a fox hole with Pete.

You and me both.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:24:44 PM
It's NOT our fight.  What compelling national interest do we have there?

Fighting terrorism and the terrorists as far away from our shores as we can.

We've been doing that since the Barbary Pirates...in pretty much the same area we're in now.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 12:26:25 PM
Fighting terrorism and the terrorists as far away from our shores as we can.

We've been doing that since the Barbary Pirates...in pretty much the same area we're in now.

Exactly.  And, we've done that and it's now time to leave.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:29:47 PM
We wouldn't have had they not thrown their lot in with Germany.

Mussolini and Hitler both acme to power in the post WWI era...when isolationist policies and non interventionist policies were popular in Europe as well as the U.S.

The whole of Europe saw what was going on in Germany and Spain and Italy in the 30's and sat on their colletive thumbs because "it's not our fight".

And look where that got Europe and eventually the U.S.

Our own non interventionist and isolationist policies in the face of what Japan was doing in the Pacific facilitated the attack on Pearl Harbor.


And even after 9/11 here we are again with people advicating for that same kind of failed foreign policy strategy yet again. 

We clearly don't learn from our mistakes because we keep repeating them.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:30:09 PM
Exactly.  And, we've done that and it's now time to leave.

Fights not over.  ISIS and Taliban are still around.  Either we grow some balls as a country and finish this fight now...or we leave and have to go back and do it all over again 10-15 years from now starting from scratch.

Title: Re: Turkey launches airstrikes on northern Syria after Trumps pulls back U.S. troops
Post by: libertybele on October 09, 2019, 12:30:50 PM
It is now being reported that civilians are being targeted and the Syrians have asked for air support from the U.S. which has been denied by Trump.  **nononono*
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2019, 12:38:01 PM
Fights not over.  ISIS and Taliban are still around.  Either we grow some balls as a country and finish this fight now...or we leave and have to go back and do it all over again 10-15 years from now starting from scratch.

They are and they will continue to be, in one form or another.  We need to start being smart about this.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 09, 2019, 12:49:48 PM
This isn't about a centuries old conflict between the Kurds and the Turks...I don't care how many times i have to repeat that...it's the truth.

This is about right and wrong.  It's about abandoning an ally in the face of a military force that's going to slaughter them. 

The Syrian Kurds are a group of marauding communists fighting to steal a country's land and kill the occupants. They are not a nation state and they certainly own no moral high ground.   The United States of America forming an alliance, of any kind, with the Kurds is the equivalent of China forming an alliance with Antifa.

The Kurds want to occupy part of Turkey and then fight for another century to own it.   How the hell is this our "moral" fight?   And, dear God, yes … when their needs dovetailed with ours, the Kurds fought with us  --- and they were well compensated for their efforts.  But correct me if I am wrong, I do not remember this great ally fighting along side us in Kandahar.   
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: libertybele on October 09, 2019, 12:52:17 PM
Meanwhile it is being reported that Turkey is bombing Syrian civilians.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 12:59:09 PM
They are and they will continue to be, in one form or another.  We need to start being smart about this.

As I pointed out earlier...we've been fighting terrorism in that part of the world since Jefferson was President.  And we probably always will as long as they insist on killing infadels and Jews and anyone who doesn't conform to their twisted backwards way of thinking.

The only way the fighting will stop is if Islam as a whole has some kind of internal reformation and modernization that brings them into the 21st Century.

Until then...it's either we fight them in hot dusty places half way around the world or we become Britan and France and some other Europenan contries and live in constant fear of being attacked walking to the market.

What happened in Germany this morning is a perfect example of what we are trying to prevent.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 01:00:15 PM
Meanwhile it is being reported that Turkey is bombing Syrian civilians.

@libertybele

Give it time...the Dems will blame Trump for the Kurdish genocide the Turks are about to inflict on them.  Trump walked into a rake foriegn policy wise on this one.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 01:09:42 PM
Turkey launches military assault in Syria as Kurdish fighters say warplanes are bombing region
https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-kurdish-troops-military-assault (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-kurdish-troops-military-assault)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: musiclady on October 09, 2019, 01:16:38 PM
Fights not over.  ISIS and Taliban are still around.  Either we grow some balls as a country and finish this fight now...or we leave and have to go back and do it all over again 10-15 years from now starting from scratch.

I'd like to know, from your military expertise and perspective, how you would advise finishing the fight now, @txradioguy .

I agree as a non-expert that we should fight this fight until it's won, but don't know how the military should go about it.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 01:27:37 PM
Quote
Wladimir
@vvanwilgenburg
European countries that refused to help Trump with safe zone (by putting boots in the ground) are also responsible for this mess.
11:26 AM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter for Android

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1181969282911133697

Right, we've had 8 mos. at least to try to solve this, because we are the major power over there, we do the heavy lifting. I do believe, if not said earlier, the UK is over there too.  So, another major power. I know other countries discussed this, I'm not sure how far that got.
Title: Re: Turkey launches airstrikes on northern Syria after Trumps pulls back U.S. troops
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 01:28:41 PM
There was a request to merge these threads together.

There is also one in politics but I won't fool with that one.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
Trump's Bay of Pigs ....

Menendez is partisan unmentionable.... but if he weren't, he could do the country a lot of good and he's not always wrong:

Quote
Senator Bob Menendez
@SenatorMenendez
·
30m
All this chaos and destruction is a direct result of the President looking for a hollow win to fulfill a campaign promise.

At the behest of foreign leaders, President Trump sold out our allies & our long-term national security for his personal short-term political gain...again.
Quote Tweet
TIME
@TIME
 · 10h
Islamic State militants hit U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters in northern Syria http://bit.ly/320gFs6 (http://bit.ly/320gFs6)
Senator Bob Menendez
@SenatorMenendez
·
31m
Today is a dark day.

American soldiers worked tirelessly to train and fight alongside the Kurds against ISIS.

Now President Trump is leaving our allies to die at the hands of the Turkish military.

The President has brought great shame to our country...again.
Quote Tweet
The New York Times
@nytimes
 · 3h
Breaking News: Turkey launched a planned military incursion into Syria, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said, after the U.S. withdrew forces near the border https://nyti.ms/35gj301 (https://nyti.ms/35gj301)
Senator Bob Menendez
@SenatorMenendez
·
32m
As predicted, Trump completely ignored the calls from Congress, from human rights advocates, from the realities on the ground, and from the Kurds themselves.

To be clear, only chaos & havoc will follow. This is the second chance ISIS has been waiting for.
Quote Tweet
MSNBC
@MSNBC
 · 4h
BREAKING: Turkish President Erdoğan says Turkish military operation against Kurdish and ISIS forces in northern Syria has begun; follows US president's announcement that the US would remove its forces from the area and not oppose a Turkish operation.
Show this thread

https://twitter.com/SenatorMenendez (https://twitter.com/SenatorMenendez)

And since he's a Democrat, he's not holding back.

Brett McGurk, I heard him criticized the other day and he's the one who resigned under Trump but I find his words pretty wise on twitter.

https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk (https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 09, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
If this actually happens, it will not look good for Trump despite his intentions...
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 02:30:03 PM
Whatever you have to do to justify your hypocrisy on this Pete.

@txradioguy

WHAT hypocrisy? Explain yourself.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 02:33:31 PM


Quote
Our own non interventionist and isolationist policies in the face of what Japan was doing in the Pacific facilitated the attack on Pearl Harbor.

@txradioguy

Only because King Franklin was desperate to save his beloved Uncle Joe Stalin.

 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
Fights not over.  ISIS and Taliban are still around.  Either we grow some balls as a country and finish this fight now...or we leave and have to go back and do it all over again 10-15 years from now starting from scratch.

@txradioguy

You must have never been in a fight if you think we are fighting now with ANY intention of winning. Perpetual war brings perpetual contracts for the Military Industrial Complex,where almost all retired flag officers and national political figures find homes when they retire.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 02:54:04 PM
They are and they will continue to be, in one form or another.  We need to start being smart about this.

@Sanguine

PRECISELY! Nobody has EVER won a war by killing privates/illiterate ragheads,and we are not even fighting a war. We are fighting what everyone is calling an insurgency.

Which is actually irrelevant when it comes to defeating the enemy,regardless of what tag you place on the conflict. We live in an age of computers,and there is no shortage of VERY bright people who know how to hack into computer systems,or intelligence operatives who know how to track human targets.

The only REAL difference between ending an insurgency these days and winning a declared war is winning the insurgency is easier.  ALL you have to do is two things.

1: Shut off the flow of money to the insurgents. When the insurgents are no longer getting paid,they will go back home. Even "true believers" need money to  feed,clothe,and house their families.

2: Shut down their ammo and weapons supply lines. This is pretty much an automatic function of shutting down the flow of money going to them.

To do this you have to "discover" where the money is coming from,which is a joke because you can bet your bippy our government knows where the money is coming from,and probably already has the account numbers. You can do this several ways. The best is quietly approaching the bank managers and asking/telling them to name who the account owners are and where they are from,and then have them shut down those accounts and refuse to open new ones for the people who were accessing the accounts.

If that doesn't work,the next best step is "disappearing" the assholes running the accounts. You may have to "disappear" a few more bank managers before the word gets around that it is kinda dangerous to be laundering fundie Islam cash,but that is a small society where they all know each other,and it won't take long for them to notice some people have disappeared.

I would normally suggest after identifying the banks you would go to the leader of that nation and to the UN to have those accounts shut down,but we all know how laughable that is. Even if we said "Pretty please!"

Kill the leaders and the rank and file will all go back home. The few "true believers" that remain can be easily handled by the local or national cops once the leaders of that nation know we take it seriously.

Anytime in the future any radical shows up,play "whack a mole" before he gains much of a following.

To sum it up,the key to stopping this crap is to identify,locate,and neutralize the money men. Once the money stops flowing,everything else stops,too.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 02:56:19 PM
Meanwhile it is being reported that Turkey is bombing Syrian civilians.

@libertybele


What is the UN doing/saying about this?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 03:03:07 PM
Right, we've had 8 mos. at least to try to solve this, because we are the major power over there, we do the heavy lifting. I do believe, if not said earlier, the UK is over there too.  So, another major power. I know other countries discussed this, I'm not sure how far that got.

@TomSea

Sending in white troops is NOT the answer. It only causes more problems as the ignorant natives will tend to believe the insurgents when they tell them the west is trying to destroy Islam,and they are defending Islam.

 Once again,the UN should use it's influence/money to send in troops from other Arab/Muslim nations to keep the insurgents in line. Any that refuse,should have ALL access to UN and Western money shut off immediately. Not to mention that all shipping ports and airports need to be on "do not use" lists. Any that refuse to cooperate should have every nickel of foreign aide shut down,and any and all US companies working there should be ordered out.
Title: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 09, 2019, 03:08:03 PM
'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
by Russ Read
 & Jerry Dunleavy
 | October 09, 2019 01:52 PM

Thousands of Islamic State prisoners are poised to escape their Kurdish captors while Turkey assaults northern Syria.

The Syrian Democratic Forces hold about 11,000 ISIS prisoners spread across more than 30 detention centers, many located close to the Turkish border and in the assault path. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan launched "Operation Peace Spring" on Wednesday, reporting the news himself on Twitter.

The White House pulled United States forces from northeast Syria on Sunday, saying Turkey would be responsible "for all ISIS fighters in the area captured over the past two years."

President Trump suggested Monday where the captives should go.

“I said I want them to go back to Germany. To France. To the different European countries from where they came,” Trump said. “And I said to the European countries, I said to all of them, take the people back. And they said, ‘No, no, no, we don’t want them back.’ I said they came from Germany. They came from France. Take them back.”

“So I told President Erdoğan it’s gonna be your responsibility,” Trump said. “So who is responsible? It’s really Russia. It’s Turkey. It’s Iran. It’s Iraq. And it’s Syria.”

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/recipe-for-disaster-no-plan-to-control-isis-prisoners-as-turkey-invades-syria (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/recipe-for-disaster-no-plan-to-control-isis-prisoners-as-turkey-invades-syria)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 04:55:16 PM
@txradioguy

WHAT hypocrisy? Explain yourself.

Out of one side of your loud mouth you defend our actions in Vietnam when people were saying about that conflict exactly what you're saying about our alliance with the Kurds out of the other side of your mouth.

It's hipocracy pure and simple.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 04:57:10 PM
Quote
Adrian Morrow
@AdrianMorrow
Trump, on criticisms that he's abandoning the Kurds, suggests he has no obligation to protect them because they didn't fight with the U.S. against Nazi Germany. "They didn’t help us with the Second World War. They didn’t help us with Normandy," he says at the White House

https://twitter.com/AdrianMorrow/status/1182032410281680896

I've been trying to find out if Trump said this at the WH and I hesitated posting it but apparently, it did happen.   Seems sort of silly.  I need to see the context too.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 04:57:21 PM
@libertybele


What is the UN doing/saying about this?

What did the UN say/do about Vietnam?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Quote
World News
October 9, 2019 / 10:59 AM / Updated 4 hours ago
Exclusive: U.S.-backed Syrian forces halt counter-Islamic State operations -sources
Phil Stewart, Ellen Francis

WASHINGTON/BEIRUT (Reuters) - U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters have halted operations for now against Islamic State in Syria as Turkey launches a military offensive in Syria’s northeast, two U.S. officials and a Kurdish military source said on Wednesday.

“The SDF stopped the anti-ISIS operations because it’s impossible to carry out any operation while you are being threatened by a large army right on the northern border,” the Kurdish military source said.

One of the U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the suspension also impacted U.S. training of stabilization forces in Syria.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-islamicstat/exclusive-u-s-backed-syrian-forces-halt-counter-islamic-state-operations-sources-idUSKBN1WO244 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-islamicstat/exclusive-u-s-backed-syrian-forces-halt-counter-islamic-state-operations-sources-idUSKBN1WO244)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Fishrrman on October 09, 2019, 07:16:50 PM
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: Fishrrman on October 09, 2019, 07:19:28 PM
There should be no isis "prisoners".
They should have been shot on sight, hands up or down.
Signing on to isis should be nothing more than a death sentence, as far as we of The West are concerned.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mountaineer on October 09, 2019, 07:22:23 PM
Honest question: How long should U.S. troops have stayed there? Six months, one year, 25 years ...? If Trump had not just ordered them out, what would have to happen before it was a good time to withdraw?

I really don't know - interested in everyone's comments.
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 09, 2019, 07:33:31 PM
Honestly cant understand Trump's decision. Taking marching orders from Rand Paul?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 07:48:55 PM
Out of one side of your loud mouth you defend our actions in Vietnam when people were saying about that conflict exactly what you're saying about our alliance with the Kurds out of the other side of your mouth.

It's hipocracy pure and simple.

@txradioguy

No,TWO organized,HUGE nations joined forces to try to take over all of Asia in an extension of the Cold War. They first tried it in Korea,and then in Viet Nam.

Or do you seriously equate Asia with Shitstainistan and a bunch of retards that can't read or write and wipe their butts with their hands?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 07:53:01 PM
What did the UN say/do about Vietnam?

@txradioguy

Hard to tell if you are asking me,or @libertybelle,but I'll answer for me and let her answer for her if she wants.

The UN did everything they COULD do to help create problems for us,and to promote a Communist victory.

You might notice it is no longer 1964,and we have different circumstances at work,as well as an America First President.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 07:57:51 PM
Honest question: How long should U.S. troops have stayed there? Six months, one year, 25 years ...? If Trump had not just ordered them out, what would have to happen before it was a good time to withdraw?

I really don't know - interested in everyone's comments.

@mountaineer

You know my opinion on this,so ping @txradioguy and let him tell you "forever and 14 days" would be a good time to withdraw.

The best way,and ONLY way to end the wars against Islam is to get serious about it,cut off their funding,and track down and kill their leadership and any banker that doesn't shut down their accounts and transfer their money to us,where ever you find them. We can use that money to help rebuild the infrastructural once the fundie Muslims either leave or are killed off.
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: libertybele on October 09, 2019, 08:26:59 PM
Honestly cant understand Trump's decision. Taking marching orders from Rand Paul?

Not understanding Paul's logic in all of this either; certainly the significance of the possibility of the re-emergence of ISIS should have been a huge consideration.  I've always liked Rand and have great respect for his father, but IMHO their mindset on foreign 'affairs' seems dated; what may have worked in the past doesn't seem to be applicable anymore.
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 08:28:17 PM
One of the prisons got bombed today too. Not sure of much else.
Title: Two high profile ISIS members are in US custody while concerns linger over Turkey's operation in Syr
Post by: libertybele on October 09, 2019, 08:46:45 PM
Two high profile ISIS members are in US custody while concerns linger over Turkey's operation in Syria

The US military has taken custody of two high profile members of the British ISIS cell known as the "Beatles" as concerns loom over whether the ongoing Turkish offensive could result in ISIS prisoners escaping from undermanned prisons in Syria, according to three US officials.

One of the officials said the transfer was made today.

The second US official said there are plans to bring the two ISIS members, Alexanda Kotey and El Shafee Elsheikh, to the US for prosecution. The two have been held in northern Syria by the US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) for more than a year.

The State Department accused their ISIS execution cell of "holding captive and beheading approximately two dozen hostages," including James Foley, American journalist Steven Sotloff, and American aid worker Peter Kassig.............

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/syria-turkey-military-offensive-dle-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/syria-turkey-military-offensive-dle-intl/index.html)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 09:04:30 PM
@mountaineer

You know my opinion on this,so ping @txradioguy and let him tell you "forever and 14 days" would be a good time to withdraw.

The best way,and ONLY way to end the wars against Islam is to get serious about it,cut off their funding,and track down and kill their leadership and any banker that doesn't shut down their accounts and transfer their money to us,where ever you find them. We can use that money to help rebuild the infrastructural once the fundie Muslims either leave or are killed off.

Cut and run...how Liberal of you.
Title: Re: Turkey says it will cross into Syria 'shortly,' issues warning to Kurdish fighters
Post by: jafo2010 on October 09, 2019, 09:45:49 PM
Turkey does not belong in NATO.  Boot them. 
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2019, 09:57:10 PM
'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
by Russ Read
 & Jerry Dunleavy
 | October 09, 2019 01:52 PM

Thousands of Islamic State prisoners are poised to escape their Kurdish captors while Turkey assaults northern Syria.

The Syrian Democratic Forces hold about 11,000 ISIS prisoners spread across more than 30 detention centers, many located close to the Turkish border and in the assault path. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan launched "Operation Peace Spring" on Wednesday, reporting the news himself on Twitter.

The White House pulled United States forces from northeast Syria on Sunday, saying Turkey would be responsible "for all ISIS fighters in the area captured over the past two years."

President Trump suggested Monday where the captives should go.

“I said I want them to go back to Germany. To France. To the different European countries from where they came,” Trump said. “And I said to the European countries, I said to all of them, take the people back. And they said, ‘No, no, no, we don’t want them back.’ I said they came from Germany. They came from France. Take them back.”

“So I told President Erdoğan it’s gonna be your responsibility,” Trump said. “So who is responsible? It’s really Russia. It’s Turkey. It’s Iran. It’s Iraq. And it’s Syria.”

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/recipe-for-disaster-no-plan-to-control-isis-prisoners-as-turkey-invades-syria (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/recipe-for-disaster-no-plan-to-control-isis-prisoners-as-turkey-invades-syria)

Talk about passing the buck...
Title: Re: 'Recipe for disaster:' No plan to control ISIS prisoners as Turkey invades Syria
Post by: jafo2010 on October 09, 2019, 09:59:22 PM
Every last maggot involved with ISIS should be lined up and shot, including women and children.  There are no innocents with these animals.  I am certain they are training the children before they can walk to kill, kill, kill. 

Just not civilized to allow these animals to live for another day to kill unchecked, and they will. 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 09, 2019, 11:54:48 PM
Cut and run...how Liberal of you.

@txradioguy

Eat my shorts,Party Punk.
Title: US takes custody of two high-profile Islamic State fighters
Post by: TomSea on October 09, 2019, 11:57:07 PM
Quote
US takes custody of two high-profile Islamic State fighters
The military is holding the two men, part of a cell notorious for beheading its hostages, at an undisclosed location.
 

The United States has taken custody of two high-profile members of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS/ISIL) who became notorious for beheading hostages and boasting about it in videos.

The two men, previously held in Syria by Kurdish-led fighters, were moved out of the country as Turkey started an offensive there.

"I can confirm that we've taken custody of two high-value ISIS individuals from the SDF," a defence official told AFP news agency on Wednesday on condition of anonymity, referring to the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces.

Read more at: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/takes-custody-high-profile-islamic-state-fighters-191010014412701.html (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/takes-custody-high-profile-islamic-state-fighters-191010014412701.html)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 12:23:41 AM
Fox News Reporter:
Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
US now has 2 Brits who beheaded journalists. US official: “I can confirm that we've taken custody of two high value ISIS individuals from the SDF. They are being held in military custody pursuant to the law of war. They have been moved out of Syria and are in a secure location.”

Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: "The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us."
Disappointed in the decisions coming from their senior leaders.

Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
Acc to this US soldier on the ground tonight in Syria: "The Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the Middle East as anyone. "It's a shame. It's horrible." "This is not helping the ISIS fight." Re: ISIS prisoners: "Many of them will be free in the coming days and weeks."
Quote

Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were "surprised" by the decision Sunday night.
Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor."
Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
"We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement. There was NO threat to the Turks - NONE - from this side of the border." "This is insanity," the concerned US service member told me. ""I don't know what they call atrocities but they are happening."

Quote
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
This veteran US Special forces soldier has trained indigenous forces on multiple continents. He is on the frontlines tonight and said they are witnessing Turkish atrocities.

"Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It's horrible," this military source on the ground told me.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 12:57:25 AM
Quote
Middle East
Trump Decision on Kurds Triggers Alarm in Arab World
By Dale Gavlak    October 9, 2019

...

Jordanian analyst Osama al Sharif says the announcement to leave the Kurds to fend for themselves against the powerful NATO member, Turkey, has sent jitters among other US allies.

"For American allies the region, it definitely sends a very serious and disturbing message that nobody can rely on Mr. Trump for help when help is needed," he said. "That happened to Saudi Arabia when Aramco was hit, and they expected some sort of stronger American reaction. Israel, itself, was stunned by the declaration because it changes the whole delicate geopolitical balance in Syria in favor of Israel’s foes.

"It was shocking to see Mr. Trump seemingly abandon the Kurds without recalling the sacrifice they made to rid Syria of Islamic State militants, known in Arabic as Daesh, particularly as Turkish President Recep Tayyib Erdogan permitted foreign jihadists to cross into Syria in the first place," al Sharif added.

He noted that the Kurds lost 11,000 of their own fighting Islamic State in Syria.

"American lost not a single man in Syria, so to be abandoned in this way and to be sold out to the Turks. ...

https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/trump-decision-kurds-triggers-alarm-arab-world (https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/trump-decision-kurds-triggers-alarm-arab-world)

Also:

Quote
Christians in northeast Syria, mainly Syriacs, also fought alongside the Kurds to defeat Islamic State militants. Political leader Bassam Ishak, who heads the Syriac National Council, says they, too, feel betrayed.

Yep.  Voice of America, I'm not even sure these kinds of articles are copyrighted. There is no mention AP, Reuters and so on as sources.  Good article.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 01:02:59 AM
Pompeo is a good imho, but even here, he's probably sagging a bit under the pressure, anyone miss Bolton? Anyone think we'd be having this situation if Bolton had been there? Despite, I personally believe, Bolton does get a bit far out there but it's better than this now! Sure as heck.

Quote
Pompeo says US did not give green light to Turkey’s Syria incursion
Reuters, Washington Thursday, 10 October 2019

The United States has not given Turkey a green light to invade Syria, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Wednesday, but added that Ankara had “legitimate security concerns” and that President Donald Trump made a decision to move American soldiers out of harm’s way.

Speaking to broadcaster PBS in an interview, Pompeo dismissed widespread concerns over the resurgence of ISIS in Syria.

On Wednesday night, Turkish troops and their Syrian rebel allies entered northeast Syria, the defense ministry said, starting a land offensive against Kurdish militia fighters.

Read more at: https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2019/10/10/Pompeo-says-US-did-not-give-green-light-to-Turkey-s-Syria-incursion.html

Miss Me Yet?
(https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201803/n_hayes_apaintersederbolton_180322_1920x1080.jpg)

Bolton is no friend of Turkey from what I understand, this really might be the truth.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 01:12:15 AM
Quote
Alliance with "SDF" did not end, communications should continue with the US administration - Former member of Congress

(http://npasyria.com/en/admin/user_images/850/85065.jpg)
Mehdi Afifi, the former U.S. Democratic Representative

[Alliance with "SDF" did not end, communications should continue with the US administration - Former member of Congress]

Northern Syria – North-Press Agency

Former United States Democratic Party representative said that he doesn't believe the alliance with the SDF had ended, while The Democratic Forces of Syria should reach out to the U.S. administration away from the White House to contain this serious issue.

In a special statement to North-Press, the former U.S. Democratic Representative Dr. Mehdi Afifi, said that he does not believe that the alliance with the Syrian Democratic Forces has ended, "but Kurdish political and military institutions must keep communicating with the U.S. political and military institutions to continue this cooperation, as the United States of America is not ruled by one man."

Dr. Afifi stressed that the SDF forces should always communicate with the U.S. Congress and the Department of State and the Pentagon away from the White House to try to contain this issue.
He also stressed that the decision of the U.S. President is surprising for the U.S. Administration, while the Pentagon has opposed the decision to evacuate the U.S. troops, indicating that the main reason behind this move is the internal events in the United States.

Read more at: https://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=970&sub_blog=10&name_blog=Alliance%20with%20%22SDF%22%20did%20not%20end,%20communications%20should%20continue%20with%20the%20US%20administration%20-%20Former%20member%20of%20Congress (https://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=970&sub_blog=10&name_blog=Alliance%20with%20%22SDF%22%20did%20not%20end,%20communications%20should%20continue%20with%20the%20US%20administration%20-%20Former%20member%20of%20Congress)

The best coverage or at least, up there. Some of these websites, you wonder who is behind them but this one seems to have a lot of integrity, honest reporting, straightforward.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 06:53:22 AM
Quote
DON THE ATTACK Boris Johnson clashed with Donald Trump over US decision to let Turkish forces invade Syria

    Kate Ferguson

    8 Oct 2019, 23:06Updated: 8 Oct 2019, 23:07

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/NINTCHDBPICT000527818205-3-e1570571411363.jpg?w=620)
BORIS Johnson clashed with Donald Trump over his decision to let Turkish forces invade Syria.

...

Critics have blasted the shock decision, warning it will leave brave Kurdish forces who led the fight against ISIS at the mercy of their old foe the Turks.

The PM’s official spokesman said: “We are deeply concerned by reports that Turkey intends to launch a military operation in north-east Syria.

More at: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10095277/boris-johnson-clash-donald-trump-turkey-syria/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10095277/boris-johnson-clash-donald-trump-turkey-syria/)

They were able to see how asinine this was. My gosh, I feel like we should send some fighter jets in and stop this invasion.

And why isn't Turkey a designated state sponsor of terror too? Now, it gets tricky, if they haven't aided ISIS, they certainly have aided "lesser" radical groups, tahrer al sham, lesser smaller groups.

That may end the presidency per reelection, it's a complex matter however, that decision guts many right down to their soul. There's a lot to explore, can't it somehow be a just decision.

Title: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: jpsb on October 10, 2019, 06:55:17 AM
Never before in history has the US worked with a group and then opened the skies to have another US ally bomb and destroy it. On October 9, the Syrian Democratic Forces, a group of mostly Kurdish fighters who fought ISIS for five years and helped create a peaceful and stable area in northeast Syria, were bombed and bombarded by Turkey as US forces withdrew and watched.

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/They-fought-alongside-the-US-for-five-years-to-be-bombed-by-US-NATO-ally-604103 (https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/They-fought-alongside-the-US-for-five-years-to-be-bombed-by-US-NATO-ally-604103)


F**k Trump
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 06:58:52 AM
Quote
Turkey's Syria invasion: Member of US Special Forces says, 'I am ashamed for the first time in my career'
By Jennifer Griffin, Melissa Leon | Fox News

PENTAGON – A member of U.S. Special Forces serving alongside the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in Syria told Fox News on Wednesday they were witnessing Turkish atrocities on the frontlines.

“I am ashamed for the first time in my career,” said the distraught soldier, who has been involved in the training of indigenous forces on multiple continents. The hardened service member is among the 1,000 or so U.S. troops who remain in Syria.

“Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It’s horrible,” the military source on the ground said. “We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement [with the Turks]. There was no threat to the Turks -- none -- from this side of the border."

More at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-invasion-special-forces-soldier-kurds (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-invasion-special-forces-soldier-kurds)

Gatestone Intsitute:

Quote
Turkey Flooding Europe with Migrants
by Soeren Kern
October 10, 2019 at 5:00 am

    The Greek government has said that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan personally controls the migration flows to Greece and turns them on and off to extract more money and other political concessions from the European Union. In recent months, the Turkish government has repeatedly threatened to open the floodgates of mass migration to Greece, and, by extension, to the rest of Europe.

    "If they [the European Union] do not give us the necessary support in this struggle, then we will not be able to stop the 3.5 million refugees from Syria and another two million people who will reach our borders from Idlib." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

    "If we open the floodgates, no European government will be able to survive for more than six months. We advise them not to try our patience." — Turkish Interior Minister Süleyman Soylu.

Read more at: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14970/turkey-europe-migrants (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/14970/turkey-europe-migrants)

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 07:00:26 AM
**Warning**

 :nono:   

No personal attacks and any personal attack <--- against members here that is, will be under review to be deleted including any from last night with full respect to all members. We can't make exceptions, we can not permit this.   Post in goodwill and in reason, all 'conservatives' welcomed.

 *please*

Oh, and if there is an inappropriate post, feel free to report it...

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: DCPatriot on October 10, 2019, 07:06:54 AM
**Warning**

No personal attacks and any personal attack will be under review to be deleted including any from last night with full respect to all members. We can't make exceptions, we can not permit this.

LOL!  This event has triggered a lot of people.

Have 'Sinkspur' as a contact in my phone for many years...have never spoken to him other than by text.

He texted me last night....first time in over a year.   "...do you still love your boy?"       

Yes, Mike.   I do!    :laugh:
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: jpsb on October 10, 2019, 07:22:23 AM
I just spoke to a distraught US Special Forces soldier who is among the 1000 or so US troops in Syria tonight who is serving alongside the SDF Kurdish forces. It was one of the hardest phone calls I have ever taken.

"I am ashamed for the first time in my career."
5:02 PM · Oct 9, 2019·Twitter Web App
46.8K
 Retweets
90.9K
 Likes
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
Replying to
@JenGriffinFNC
This veteran US Special forces soldier has trained indigenous forces on multiple continents. He is on the frontlines tonight and said they are witnessing Turkish atrocities.

"Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It's horrible," this military source on the ground told me.
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
"We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement. There was NO threat to the Turks - NONE - from this side of the border." "This is insanity," the concerned US service member told me. ""I don't know what they call atrocities but they are happening."
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
This American soldier told me the Kurds have not left their positions guarding the ISIS prisoners. In fact "they prevented a prison break last night without us."
"They are not abandoning our side (yet)."
The Kurds are "pleading for our support." We are doing "nothing."
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were "surprised" by the decision Sunday night.
Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor."
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
Acc to this US soldier on the ground tonight in Syria: "The Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the Middle East as anyone. "It's a shame. It's horrible." "This is not helping the ISIS fight." Re: ISIS prisoners: "Many of them will be free in the coming days and weeks."
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
13h
This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: "The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us."
Disappointed in the decisions coming from their senior leaders.



Impeach the MFer.
Title: Turkey strikes 181 Syria targets as Donald Trump defends ‘invasion’ by saying Kurds ‘didn’t help us
Post by: Elderberry on October 10, 2019, 07:48:06 AM
The Sun by  Jon Lockett and Jenny Awford 10/10/2019

THE Turkish military pounded more than 181 Kurdish targets after launching a deadly ground and air assault in northern Syria.

Terrified locals were seen fleeing on foot and piling into cars with their possessions as they quickly deserted the under-fire region.

The strikes came as Donald Trump hit back at claims he had abandoned the Kurds  - a US ally - adding they "didn't help" in World War Two.

His comments came as Turkish ground troops reportedly crossed the border into Syria after airstrikes began earlier on Wednesday.

Turkish operation so far:

•   US President Donald Trump pulls back American troops from northeastern Syria

•   Syrian Kurds, allies who supported the US in the fight against ISIS, are left vulnerable to a military onslaught after being abandoned

•   Turkey launches ground and air assault against Kurdish fighters in northeast Syria on Wednesday, October 9

•   Initial air strikes hit the border town of Ras al Ain

•   Turkish defence bosses say jets and artillery struck 181 targets east of the Euphrates River since the incursion started

•   At least eight people - three Kurds and five civilians - are killed and dozens have been wounded

More: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10088178/turkey-syria-invasion-donald-trump-kurds/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10088178/turkey-syria-invasion-donald-trump-kurds/)
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: libertybele on October 10, 2019, 08:27:23 AM
Very sad state of affairs.  Thanks for the posts.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: kevindavis on October 10, 2019, 08:47:07 AM
Kick Turkey out of NATO.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 10, 2019, 08:56:10 AM

@TomSea

The title of this thread is/was "Topic: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area  (Read 1488 times) "

How did that manage to morph into "DON THE ATTACK Boris Johnson clashed with Donald Trump over US decision to let Turkish forces invade Syria" ?

When did Trump become the Commander in Chief of Turkish forces? Or in a position to "LET them invade" anywhere?


 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 10, 2019, 09:02:03 AM
Quote
BORIS Johnson clashed with Donald Trump over his decision to let Turkish forces invade Syria.

...

Critics have blasted the shock decision, warning it will leave brave Kurdish forces who led the fight against ISIS at the mercy of their old foe the Turks.

The PM’s official spokesman said: “We are deeply concerned by reports that Turkey intends to launch a military operation in north-east Syria.

@TomSea

If that's the case,why doesn't Boris put on his "Big Boy Panties" and demand that Turkish forces stay in Turkey,or he will spank them?

When did WE become Britain's daddy?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 10, 2019, 09:07:14 AM
Gatestone Intsitute:Turkey's Syria invasion: Member of US Special Forces says, 'I am ashamed for the first time in my career'

@TomSea

This happens often with SF troops who deploy over and over to the same area and get to know and identify with the locals as "family" because they practically live with them,and often times,they die with them.

It's sad,but unavoidable.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:13:26 AM
Fox News Reporter:
Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
6h
Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were "surprised" by the decision Sunday night.
Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor."

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC (https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC)

Already posted here:

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,378724.0.html (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,378724.0.html)

 :whistle:
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:17:46 AM
This is so embarassing and dishonorable on so many levels.
Title: Re: Turkey strikes 181 Syria targets as Donald Trump defends ‘invasion’ by saying Kurds ‘didn’t help
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:18:50 AM
 **nononono*
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: kevindavis on October 10, 2019, 09:31:26 AM
This is so embarassing and dishonorable on so many levels.


Honor used to be a conservative value
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: mystery-ak on October 10, 2019, 09:42:19 AM
US soldier in Syria: 'I am ashamed for the first time in my career'
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465143-us-soldier-in-syria-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:43:05 AM

Honor used to be a conservative value

Honor is something we still prize highly in the military.  So is integrity.  And right now there are a lot of people questioning whether we still have either.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 10, 2019, 09:43:43 AM
This drama is getting out of hand.  No good will come from it.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:43:52 AM
US soldier in Syria: 'I am ashamed for the first time in my career'
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465143-us-soldier-in-syria-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career (https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465143-us-soldier-in-syria-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career)

Also posted here last night:

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,378724.0.html (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,378724.0.html)
Title: Turkey’s military assault in Syria leaves more than 100 Kurdish fighters dead, Erdogan says
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:59:54 AM
Turkey’s ongoing military assault in Syria has left more than 100 Kurdish forces dead, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan claimed Thursday morning, a day after his troops launched airstrikes and unleashed artillery shelling on Syrian towns and villages along its border.

Information about the rising death toll came as Turkey's state-run news agency said Turkey-allied Syrian opposition fighters have "cleared of terror" two villages across the border in Syria — meaning there are no more Syrian Kurdish fighters in those villages. Turkey has long threatened to attack the Kurdish fighters whom Ankara considers terrorists allied with a Kurdish insurgency in Turkey.

Erdogan told party officials Thursday that 109 "terrorists" have been killed so far in Operation Peace Spring — a reference to the U.S.-allied Syrian Kurdish fighters. He did not elaborate, and the reports on the ground, according to the Associated Press, did not indicate anything remotely close to such a large number of casualties.

The Turkish leader also warned the European Union not to call Ankara's incursion into Syria an "invasion," and renewed his threat of "opening the gates" and letting Syrian refugees flood Europe.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-military-assault-in-syria (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-military-assault-in-syria)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 11:30:31 AM
Quote
Middle East
ISIS exploits security vacuum amid Turkish incursion, attacks Syrian Kurds
Wladimir van Wilgenburg Wladimir van Wilgenburg

ERBIL (Kurdistan 24) – The Islamic State has claimed responsibility for two attacks in northeast Syria against the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) on Wednesday, taking apparent advantage of a security vacuum caused by a Turkish cross-border attack on the SDF that began earlier in the day.

Female Islamic State supporters in the al-Hol camp, which holds nearly 69,000 women and children who are family members of suspected members of the extremist group, also burned their tents and tried to create chaos, a Kurdish security official said, confirming an earlier report by Middle East Eye news agency.

Amaq, the semi-official ISIS outlet claimed later wrote, “Trusting the highest God, the Caliphate’s soldier, brother Abu Adnan Al-Shami – may Allah accept him – yesterday managed to reach to the intelligence base of the PKK infidels within Shari’ Al-Noor neighborhood in Raqqa city center.”

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/0d97f37e-b24f-4b1b-b816-2293f03931e7 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/0d97f37e-b24f-4b1b-b816-2293f03931e7)

So, here, we see the Kurdistan News Agency itself and this is who it is, is calling them "Syrian Kurds".
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 11:34:07 AM
So, here, we see the Kurdistan News Agency itself and this is who it is, is calling them "Syrian Kurds".

Where?  There's no place in what you posted where the words "Syrian Kurds" is used.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 11:39:42 AM

@TomSea

The title of this thread is/was "Topic: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area  (Read 1488 times) "

How did that manage to morph into "DON THE ATTACK Boris Johnson clashed with Donald Trump over US decision to let Turkish forces invade Syria" ?

When did Trump become the Commander in Chief of Turkish forces? Or in a position to "LET them invade" anywhere?

UK is our ally. 

It certainly seems we went into Iraq in the first place, with them, the UK playing a key role.

This is a comprehensive thread. All related stories, that's what the purpose is.

@sneakypete

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 11:41:31 AM

Benjamin Netanyahu
@netanyahu
 · 3h
Israel strongly condemns the Turkish invasion of the Kurdish areas in Syria and warns against the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds by Turkey and its proxies.
Israel is prepared to extend humanitarian assistance to the gallant Kurdish people.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: mountaineer on October 10, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Where?  There's no place in what you posted where the words "Syrian Kurds" is used.
It's in the headline.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 11:52:48 AM
It's in the headline.  :shrug:

I stand corrected.  I was lookinga t the body of the story.

My apologies @TomSea  I was wrong.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 01:32:09 PM
"Syrian Kurds", this is all just journalism shorthand like calling someone "far right", "right wing", they may not be exactly correct terms but they are understood. Just because it's in a headline from even a Kurd news source, doesn't mean it's right but it is understood. "Kurds in Syria", what could be easier to understand. Maybe they are all Kurds of Kurdistan and Greater Kurdistan.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 02:29:57 PM
Quote
Janet Grabowski
@janetcalif
·
6m
US fails to condemn Turkey's Syria offensive at emergency UN Security Council Meeting along with Russia so resolution is not passed. Not only does Trump betray the Kurds, now votes against condemning Turkey with Russia! Absolutely shameful.

https://twitter.com/janetcalif/status/1182360796266811392

I want to see confirmation of this, I haven't seen proof,  Wladimir  (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg) was hesitant about it.
Title: Re: Turkey’s military assault in Syria leaves more than 100 Kurdish fighters dead, Erdogan says
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 02:31:36 PM
Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
·
2h
Hard to get accurate casualties estimates with all sides inflating numbers.

Erdogan said 190 were killed from Kurdish forces but that number doesn’t match any other estimate. Most have ranged between 10-25

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1182318916963635203
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 02:33:24 PM
Quote
Turkey’s Invasion of Kurdish-Controlled Syrian Territory Stalls as Soon as it Starts, But For How Long?
Andy TyborgUpdated 10.10.19 10:26AM ET / Published 10.10.19 5:36AM ET

This story was updated at 10:30 a.m. EDT, October 10, 2019.

GAZIANTEP, Turkey—What began with bluster at 10:37 Wednesday night following the Turkish defense ministry’s announcement of a ground incursion into Syria quickly failed to materialize. 

Turkey’s aerial bombardment had begun earlier in the afternoon and included a wave of large scale assaults on key border cities such as Tal Abyad, Ras al-Ain, Qamishli, and the border crossing at Darbasia, pushing a wave of people to flee the area.

But the large convoys of Turkish armored vehicles and the large Free Syrian Army (FSA) proxy force put together for the assault remained throughout the night on the Turkish side of the border.

Read more at: https://www.thedailybeast.com/turkeys-invasion-of-kurdish-controlled-syrian-territory-stalls-as-soon-as-it-starts-but-for-how-long (https://www.thedailybeast.com/turkeys-invasion-of-kurdish-controlled-syrian-territory-stalls-as-soon-as-it-starts-but-for-how-long)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 02:40:32 PM
Short article:

Quote
World News
October 10, 2019 / 12:37 PM / Updated an hour ago
United States' U.N. envoy warns Turkey it faces 'consequences’ amid Syria assault

1 Min Read

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The United States’ envoy to the United Nations on Thursday warned Turkey it faced repercussions from its assault against Kurdish militias in northeastern Syria if it did not protect vulnerable populations or contain the Islamic State.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-un-idUSKBN1WP2OB (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-un-idUSKBN1WP2OB)

So, this doesn't clear up anything either. Apparently we were scolding Turkey at the UN today.  Kelly Craft.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: musiclady on October 10, 2019, 02:50:17 PM
Thank you for posting all this information @TomSea .  You're creating a good resource for this very unfortunate (to say the least) situation.

For me, abandoning the Kurds is despicable after the support they have provided to US troops over the years.

They were one of the only glimmers of hope in the hell hole called the Middle East, and we just sacrificed them to the Islamic radical Turks.

Despicable.
Title: Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupation'
Post by: mystery-ak on October 10, 2019, 03:19:32 PM
Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupation'
By Marty Johnson - 10/10/19 02:55 PM EDT

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Thursday said that if Europe describes Turkey's current military operation against Kurdish forces in Syria as an "occupation," then he will release nearly 4 million refugees into the continent, CNN reports.


In a speech from Ankara, Erdoğan said, "I will say this once again. If you try to label our current operation as an occupation, our job becomes easier, we will open the doors and send the 3.6 million refugees to you."

The U.N. Security Council met Thursday to discuss a potential response to Turkey's invasion of Syria.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/465258-turkeys-president-threatens-to-flood-europe-with-refugees-if-it
Title: Re: Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupati
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 03:35:59 PM
Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupation'
By Marty Johnson - 10/10/19 02:55 PM EDT

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Thursday said that if Europe describes Turkey's current military operation against Kurdish forces in Syria as an "occupation," then he will release nearly 4 million refugees into the continent, CNN reports.


In a speech from Ankara, Erdoğan said, "I will say this once again. If you try to label our current operation as an occupation, our job becomes easier, we will open the doors and send the 3.6 million refugees to you."

The U.N. Security Council met Thursday to discuss a potential response to Turkey's invasion of Syria.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/europe/465258-turkeys-president-threatens-to-flood-europe-with-refugees-if-it

Fits in perfectly with Trump's comments yesterday about where the ISIS fighters will go if they escape Kurdish control.
Title: Re: Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupati
Post by: Fishrrman on October 10, 2019, 06:40:21 PM
The countries that border Turkey on the west side better start building fences and walls...!
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: Fishrrman on October 10, 2019, 06:45:24 PM
The best solution for us is to GET OUT OF THERE -- get out of all the muslim countries -- and let them "have at it" against each other.

The more force they use against one another, the more dead, the better.

Seal off the entire muslim world just as the Soviets encased Chernobyl in a "sarcophagus" by which to burn itself out.

Let islam do the same.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: DB on October 10, 2019, 07:10:00 PM
This drama is getting out of hand.  No good will come from it.

That's awfully close to a "some people did something comment"...
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 07:10:31 PM
Quote
Mike (Doranimated)
 This simple fact, that the US worked (and continues to work!) with the PKK, is by far the most important cause of the discord between Ankara and Washington. Yet in analysis after analysis, American experts either ignore it or downplay it. https://t.co/gMXLbt5pg8

Ragıp Soylu @ragipsoylu
For the first time in U.S. history, a US President acknowledges on the record that US worked with PKK; a designated terror group by the State Department. While that cooperation was ongoing in 2015, a string of PKK suicide attacks killed 100s in Turkey pic.twitter.com/tj4JdreTWh

https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1182205199768866819

Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".
Quote
Turkey not satisfied by U.S. proposal for safe zone in northern Syria

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on Wednesday said Turkey was running out of patience with the United States in talks to set up what it calls a safe zone in northern Syria and remove Syrian Kurdish force the area.

Çavuşoğlu’s comments follow three days of talks between Turkish and U.S. officials on Syria. The U.S. envoy for Syria, James Jeffrey, arrived in the Turkish capital Ankara over the weekend to discuss the long-planned zone, east of the River Euphrates.

Turkey wants a safe zone at least 30 km deep with Turkish forces in full control, while the United States favours a 10 km-deep area with no permanent Turkish troop presence. The zone is meant to provide a buffer between Turkey and parts of northern Syria controlled by the Syrian Kurdish forces of the People’s Protection Units (YPG).

https://ahvalnews.com/safe-zone/turkey-not-satisfied-us-proposal-safe-zone-northern-syria

Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: DB on October 10, 2019, 07:11:36 PM

Honor used to be a conservative value

The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: DB on October 10, 2019, 07:12:59 PM
Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".

Turkey is a jihadist enterprise.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 07:13:16 PM
Quote
Mike (Doranimated)
 This simple fact, that the US worked (and continues to work!) with the PKK, is by far the most important cause of the discord between Ankara and Washington. Yet in analysis after analysis, American experts either ignore it or downplay it. https://t.co/gMXLbt5pg8

Ragıp Soylu @ragipsoylu
For the first time in U.S. history, a US President acknowledges on the record that US worked with PKK; a designated terror group by the State Department. While that cooperation was ongoing in 2015, a string of PKK suicide attacks killed 100s in Turkey pic.twitter.com/tj4JdreTWh

https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1182205199768866819

Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".
Quote
Turkey not satisfied by U.S. proposal for safe zone in northern Syria

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on Wednesday said Turkey was running out of patience with the United States in talks to set up what it calls a safe zone in northern Syria and remove Syrian Kurdish force the area.

Çavuşoğlu’s comments follow three days of talks between Turkish and U.S. officials on Syria. The U.S. envoy for Syria, James Jeffrey, arrived in the Turkish capital Ankara over the weekend to discuss the long-planned zone, east of the River Euphrates.

Turkey wants a safe zone at least 30 km deep with Turkish forces in full control, while the United States favours a 10 km-deep area with no permanent Turkish troop presence. The zone is meant to provide a buffer between Turkey and parts of northern Syria controlled by the Syrian Kurdish forces of the People’s Protection Units (YPG).

https://ahvalnews.com/safe-zone/turkey-not-satisfied-us-proposal-safe-zone-northern-syria
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: skeeter on October 10, 2019, 07:17:24 PM
Above just highlights some of the factors at play here,  Turkey has a point-of-view, I think most of it is wrong but they have legitimate concerns and how about this, there were negotiations over this "Safe Zone".

Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: musiclady on October 10, 2019, 07:17:54 PM
The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.

Yep.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 10, 2019, 07:22:56 PM
Hey Tom...Mussolini made the trains run on time too.  I guess we shouldn't ahve ousted him from Italy either huh?
Not to be a nit picker, but the Italians did that.

Quote
Several of his colleagues were close to revolt, and Mussolini was forced to summon the Grand Council on 24 July 1943. This was the first time the body had met since the start of the war. When he announced that the Germans were thinking of evacuating the south, Grandi launched a blistering attack on him.[12] Grandi moved a resolution asking the king to resume his full constitutional powers–in effect, a vote of no confidence in Mussolini. This motion carried by a 19–8 margin.[168] Mussolini showed little visible reaction, even though this effectively gave the king legal authorization to sack him. He did, however, ask Grandi to consider the possibility that this motion would spell the end of Fascism.[171]

Despite this sharp rebuke, Mussolini showed up for work the next day as usual. He allegedly viewed the Grand Council as merely an advisory body and did not think the vote would have any substantive effect.[168] That afternoon, he was summoned to the royal palace by Victor Emmanuel, who had been planning to oust Mussolini earlier. When Mussolini tried to tell the king about the meeting, Victor Emmanuel cut him off and formally dismissed him from office, replacing him with Marshal Pietro Badoglio.[168] After Mussolini left the palace, he was arrested by Carabinieri on the king's orders.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 07:33:07 PM
The best solution for us is to GET OUT OF THERE -- get out of all the muslim countries -- and let them "have at it" against each other.

The more force they use against one another, the more dead, the better.

Seal off the entire muslim world just as the Soviets encased Chernobyl in a "sarcophagus" by which to burn itself out.

Let islam do the same.

Then the Bushies and Obama-ites shouldn't have fan the flames of sectarianism in the first place and I sure don't believe in abandoning Christians that have been there since New Testament times.  Not on our watch.   And I'm far from saying Trump is ideal on this, he pulled this last Nov./Dec. as well.

Quote
Wladimir
@vvanwilgenburg
·
4h
Christian fighter of @SyriacMFS
 is not surprised two Christians were the first to be killed in the Turkish attack in the Al-Beshayriyyeh neighborhood in Al-Qamishli city Wednesday. "This is what Erdogan wants. Especially the Christians are his first target."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGhQ7yOXoAEhdSp?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1182283899013079042
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 07:35:20 PM
Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.

I heard it said that partnering with the PKK as we did would be like partnering with Hamas against Israel though, the Kurds will say the ones on their side of the border in Syria, have not been involved in acts against Turkey.  So, this is a bit more complex than we might initially see.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 10, 2019, 07:37:34 PM
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.
The Kurds were divvied up by the partition of the Ottoman Empire, either done without regard for tribal boundaries (out of ignorance), or to make sure there would be perpetual conflict in the region (a possibility that makes for profits). THey have been fighting for their 'turf' since, and what you bring up might have solved the problem. Recall, Saddam had used chemical weapons against them. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, it depends on which side you are on, and historically, on who wins.
Title: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 10, 2019, 08:10:40 PM
Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
National Review, Oct 10, 2019, Andrew C. McCarthy

[...]

I thus respectfully dissent from our National Review editorial.  [...]

Where to begin? Perhaps with the basic fact that there is no Kurdish territory. There is Syrian territory on Turkey’s border that the Kurds are occupying — a situation that itself serves to “inflame and complicate” the region for reasons I shall come to. Ethnic Kurds do not have a state. They live in contiguous parts of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Most are integrated into these countries, but many are separatists.

The Kurds have been our allies against ISIS, but it is not for us that they have fought. They fight ISIS for themselves, with our help. They are seeking an autonomous zone and, ultimately, statehood. The editorial fails to note that the Kurds we have backed, led by the YPG (People’s Protection Units), are the Syrian branch of the PKK (the Kurdistan Worker’s Party) in Turkey. The PKK is a militant separatist organization with Marxist-Leninist roots. Although such informed observers as Michael Rubin contend that the PKK has “evolved,” it remains a formally designated foreign terrorist organization under U.S. law. While our government materially supports the PKK’s confederates, ordinary Americans have been prosecuted for materially supporting the PKK.

The PKK has a long history of conducting terrorist attacks, but their quarrel is not with us. So why has our government designated them as terrorists? Because they have been fighting an insurgent war against Turkey for over 30 years. Turkey remains our NATO ally, even though the Erdogan government is one of the more duplicitous and anti-Western actors in a region that teems with them — as I’ve detailed over the years (see, e.g., here, here, here, here, and in my 2012 book, Spring Fever). The Erdogan problem complicates but does not change the fact that Turkey is of great strategic significance to our security.

[...]

The easily foreseeable conflict between Turkey and the Kurds is at hand. We are supposed to see the problem as Trump’s abandoning of U.S. commitments. But why did we make commitments to the Kurds that undermined preexisting commitments to Turkey? The debate is strictly framed as “How can we leave the Kurds to the tender mercies of the Turks?” No one is supposed to ask “What did we expect would happen when we backed a militant organization that is tightly linked to U.S.-designated terrorists and that is the bitter enemy of a NATO ally we knew would not abide its presence on the ally’s border?” No one is supposed to ask “What is the end game here? Are we endorsing the partition of Syria? Did we see a Kurdish autonomous zone as the next Kosovo?” (We might remember that recognition of Kosovo’s split from Serbia, over Russian objections, was exploited by the Kremlin as a rationale for promoting separatism and annexations in Georgia and Ukraine.)


Read more:  https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/turkey-and-the-kurds-its-more-complicated-than-you-think/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/turkey-and-the-kurds-its-more-complicated-than-you-think/)





Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 10, 2019, 08:12:15 PM
For those familiar with my posts:  No, I did not ghostwrite this essay.   happy77

But I sure do hope you read it from start to finish.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 10, 2019, 08:15:31 PM
FTA

Quote
It is true, as the editors observe, that “there are no easy answers in Syria.” That is no excuse for offering an answer that makes no sense: “The United States should have an exit strategy, but one that neither squanders our tactical gains against ISIS nor exposes our allies to unacceptable retribution.”

Put aside that our arming of the Kurds has already exposed our allies in Turkey to unacceptable risk. What the editorial poses is not an “exit strategy” but its opposite. In effect, it would keep U.S. forces in Syria interminably, permanently interposed between the Kurds and the Turks. The untidy questions of how that would be justifiable legally or politically go unaddressed.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 10, 2019, 08:21:49 PM
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12572371/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/biden-proposes-partitioning-iraq-regions/ (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12572371/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/biden-proposes-partitioning-iraq-regions/)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 08:38:57 PM
If we really wanted to help the Kurds, we let the opportunity for a lasting solution pass us by.

We should have partitioned Iraq, and created a Kurdish state therein.
"Kurdistan", for lack of a better name.

And then we should have told the Iraqis that if they were going to oppose this, we would fight against them "on the Kurdish side" with the same determination we had previously used to oppose Saddam.

That would have put them in their place.

Actually, there appears to be an Iraqi Kurdistan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan

I kind of wonder why most of them don't just go there, I"m sure there are issues, not big enough or what have you.
Title: Re: Erdogan threatens to release 3.6 million refugees into Europe if it calls offensive an 'occupati
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 10, 2019, 08:49:23 PM
So Erdogan admits he's European at heart?  They have a long, rich history of using war refugees as pawns.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 08:52:36 PM
Quote
October 10, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Middle East Blog Brand: Middle East Watch Tags: TurkeySyriaKurdsRecep ErdoganState Department
State Department Snafu: Turkey Was Never Given a Green Light to Invade Syria

The Trump administration will neither support the Turkish operation in northern Syria nor opposite it with military force. It will simply sit back and watch the chaos unfold from afar.

by Matthew Petti

The Trump administration is working behind-the-scenes to mediate a ceasefire between Turkey and the Syrian Kurds, but it’s unclear whether its efforts will have any effect. But for now, the United States believes that the Turkish campaign in Syria is limited.

A senior State Department official talked to reporters about the state of the U.S.-Turkey relationship during an afternoon conference call on Thursday. The call was a rare glimpse into the thought processes of the department, which has been unusually silent on Syria.


As a condition of participating in the call, the National Interest agreed not to mention the official by name.

Read more at: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/middle-east-watch/state-department-snafu-turkey-was-never-given-green-light-invade-syria-87546

Looks like a keeper article....
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Absalom on October 10, 2019, 09:01:00 PM
The Kurds, another Asian Tribe, have populated Mesopotamia/Iraq,
Persia/Iran, Syria and Turkey; having been around since Sumer in 2,200 BC.
The only Kurdistan that ever existed was created in Hollywood.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 09:11:39 PM
Quote
Iraqi Kurdistan profile
    25 April 2018

Iraq's 2005 Constitution recognises an autonomous Kurdistan region in the north of the country, run by the Kurdistan Regional Government.

This was the outcome of decades of political and military efforts to secure self-rule by the Kurdish minority, who are estimated to number more than 6 million and make up between 17% and 20% of the population of Iraq.

Kurds, who number 30-40 million in total, live in a compact area that reaches from Syria in the west to Iran in the east and Iraq in the south, north through Turkey, and into the states of the former Soviet Caucasus.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28147263 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28147263)

They do have their own self-governing region in Iraq.

Rojava is an area in Syria, that's where a lot of this action is going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava)
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:19:07 PM
That's awfully close to a "some people did something comment"...

You notice that...among some people here...what's happening to the Kurds is now dumbed down to "drama".   **nononono*

Anything to justify betrayal of an ally I guess.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 09:19:15 PM
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

Quote
@Joyce_Karam
·
30m
#Turkey’s Erdogan Tweets in Arabic hailing “Mohamedian Army / Army of [Prophet] Mohamed” invading on his behalf NE #Syria to fight Kurdish forces.

This is dangerous & unfortunate use of Islam as a religion to rally behind a political war with humanitarian ramifications on all..

Quote Tweet
رجب طيب أردوغان
@rterdogan_ar
 · Oct 9
أقبل كافة أفراد الجيش المحمدي الأبطال المشاركين في عملية نبع السلام من جباههم، وأتمنى النجاح والتوفيق لهم ولكافة العناصر المحلية الداعمة والتي تقف جنبًا إلى جنب مع تركيا في هذه العملية، وفقكم الله وكان في عونكم.
Show this thread

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1182457606016774144

She sure doesn't like this.

I'll just add this on, see this is that "Marxist-type" symbolism the Kurds use....

(https://marxismocritico.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/00-rojava-solidarity-image.jpg)
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:20:50 PM
Why can’t the blue helmets take over duty in the buffer zone? If turkey wants to remain a member they should be compelled to agree.

Because from personal experience...if you have the Blue Helmets there...it's like having no one there at all.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:21:20 PM
The word "conservative" has been destroyed. Its been replaced with the populist blow of the wind.

QFT
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 09:23:41 PM
Erdogan can go eff himself and his self righteous justification for this slaughter.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 10, 2019, 10:12:12 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f1/Solidarity_%28Polish_trade_union%29_%28logo%29.png)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2019, 10:15:18 PM
https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1182457606016774144

She sure doesn't like this.

I'll just add this on, see this is that "Marxist-type" symbolism the Kurds use....

(https://marxismocritico.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/00-rojava-solidarity-image.jpg)


I'm just gonna leave this right here...

(https://rlv.zcache.com/trump_election_poster_style_make_america_great_aga_postcard-rd4d19c9e618a421381f868e14ac92277_vgbaq_8byvr_540.jpg)

 :whistle:
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: DB on October 10, 2019, 10:21:17 PM
Honest question: How long should U.S. troops have stayed there? Six months, one year, 25 years ...? If Trump had not just ordered them out, what would have to happen before it was a good time to withdraw?

I really don't know - interested in everyone's comments.

How well did it go when Obama pulled the troops out of Iraq. How many hundreds of thousands of people died in very gruesome fashion as a result of the birth of ISIS?

Our troops in Syria were a very small number. But it was a red line Turkey couldn't cross.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Sanguine on October 10, 2019, 10:30:55 PM
BKMK
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: TomSea on October 10, 2019, 11:23:57 PM
Fine article, BTTT. We'll see but this is what we need, a more complete view of this conflict.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 11, 2019, 06:53:39 AM
Count me among the (apparent) few who doesn't think this decision by Trump is the end of the world that people say it is.

We can support the Kurds by proxy.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 07:03:09 AM
Count me among the (apparent) few who doesn't think this decision by Trump is the end of the world that people say it is.

We can support the Kurds by proxy.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Me,too. The Soviet Union is no more,and Red China is no longer Red. Both are set on conquering the world financially by dominating trade,and in China's case,production of cheap crap.

The Cold War no longer exists,and we need to quit using it's tactics and mindset to "fight" the new economic/production wars of today.

As for Syria,not our zoo,not our monkeys. The UN was created to control situations like this,demand they either do it,or get the hell out of our nation because we are cutting off their funding. The US military going into Syria as a PART of a UN peacekeeping mission is one thing,but going in to take sides in a multi-generational civil war without any allies makes no sense at all.

Unless of course you are a politician looking for kickbacks and bribes.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 11, 2019, 07:05:48 AM
@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Me,too. The Soviet Union is no more,and Red China is no longer Red. Both are set on conquering the world financially by dominating trade,and in China's case,production of cheap crap.

The Cold War no longer exists,and we need to quit using it's tactics and mindset to "fight" the new economic/production wars of today.

As for Syria,not our zoo,not our monkeys.

What's funny is that people on the left have all the sudden become neocon warmongers. Imagine if the Democrat party of 2004 could see this.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 07:09:28 AM
What's funny is that people on the left have all the sudden become neocon warmongers. Imagine if the Democrat party of 2004 could see this.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

No kidding.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 08:59:51 AM
Benjamin Netanyahu
@netanyahu
 · 3h
Israel strongly condemns the Turkish invasion of the Kurdish areas in Syria and warns against the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds by Turkey and its proxies.
Israel is prepared to extend humanitarian assistance to the gallant Kurdish people.

When one understands that the Kurds for Turkey are the equivalent of the Palestinians for Israel these are mighty interesting comments from Netanyahu.   
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 09:29:33 AM
WOW! You mean we were fighting an enemy,and they came to our aid when we were in trouble?

What that you say? WE came to THEIR aid?

Hmmm,doesn't that mean WE fought alongside THEM to help THEM?

Ifn ah dident no betta,ah might spect da reportir fella had wunna dem "agenda thangs" go-in on!
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 09:31:40 AM
The best solution for us is to GET OUT OF THERE -- get out of all the muslim countries -- and let them "have at it" against each other.

The more force they use against one another, the more dead, the better.

Seal off the entire muslim world just as the Soviets encased Chernobyl in a "sarcophagus" by which to burn itself out.

Let islam do the same.

@Fishrrman

I have been saying that about Africa for decades.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 11, 2019, 09:36:06 AM
I believe removing our troops that protect the Kurds is designed to force Europe's hand in dealing with the vacuum.  Turkey is in their backyard and historically has been the threat to the European continent for centuries.

Now that Edrogan has stated he will release millions of illegals into Europe, he has upped the stakes being played.

I do not like seeing Kurds being used as pawns inasmuch as some will be killed; however, the responsibility toward them and controlling Turkey falls much more on the Europeans than to the US.

And that is the statement Trump is making.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: libertybele on October 11, 2019, 09:36:24 AM
You notice that...among some people here...what's happening to the Kurds is now dumbed down to "drama".   **nononono*

Anything to justify betrayal of an ally I guess.

They may just change their tune when the "drama" is in our own backyard.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: Sanguine on October 11, 2019, 09:44:02 AM
Count me among the (apparent) few who doesn't think this decision by Trump is the end of the world that people say it is.

We can support the Kurds by proxy.

The media is hysterical about this.  It's easy to get caught up and actually believe them.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 09:45:08 AM
Quote
Then the Bushies and Obama-ites shouldn't have fan the flames of sectarianism in the first place

@TomSea

Ya think???

Quote
and I sure don't believe in abandoning Christians that have been there since New Testament times.


Are they infants that we need to raise,or are they adults who can make their own damn decisions? WHEN did American taxpayers adopt and take them to raise?

If they can't stay there and live safely,they need to move. If they can't figure this out on their own,they don't deserve to survive. I just don't want them coming here because they will bring their "Holy War" with them when they come.

 
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 09:50:44 AM
Quote
You notice that...among some people here...what's happening to the Kurds is now dumbed down to "drama".   **nononono*

@txradioguy

Are you saying it is a comedy?

Quote
Anything to justify betrayal of an ally I guess.

They are not and have never been "our" ally. WE have been THEIR ally,and not for noble reasons. We helped them purely because we were fighting the same enemy.

There are only two possible positive outcomes to this. Either the UN gets behind them and forces Turkey to allow them to set up a separate state within the Turkish state,or they leave and go somewhere else.

Their 3rd option is to continue to fight and die until they no longer exist as a people.
 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
I believe removing our troops that protect the Kurds is designed to force Europe's hand in dealing with the vacuum.  Turkey is in their backyard and historically has been the threat to the European continent for centuries.

Now that Edrogan has stated he will release millions of illegals into Europe, he has upped the stakes being played.

I do not like seeing Kurds being used as pawns inasmuch as some will be killed; however, the responsibility toward them and controlling Turkey falls much more on the Europeans than to the US.

And that is the statement Trump is making.

The problem is the EU won’t do anything.
Title: Re: They fought alongside the U.S. for five years to be bombed by U.S. NATO ally
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 10:12:06 AM
They may just change their tune when the "drama" is in our own backyard.

They’ll just find someone else to blame and/or forget what the said previously.
Title: Re: Turkey and the Kurds: It’s More Complicated Than You Think
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 10:17:21 AM
A number of soldiers and they probably should not discuss this publicly are also discussing this though:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/10/kurds-syrian-democratic-forces-us-donald-trump/

So, it certainly is not just the liberal media or neo-cons.


Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 11, 2019, 10:20:21 AM
The problem is the EU won’t do anything.
Likely you are correct.

Could the threat of a new invasion of illegals perhaps change their minds, particularly with the new Austrian Chancellor's attitude toward them?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 10:25:37 AM
Norway, Nato member, has said they are not going to sell weapons to Turkey.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-norway-nato-erdogan-arms-sales (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-norway-nato-erdogan-arms-sales)

Also again,  Wladimir Van Wilgenberg  (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg) Dutchman who has been over in the Kurd region for some time now has a lot of good updates.
Quote
Rojava Information Center
@RojavaIC
·
2h
"The SDF took back all the villages from the Turkish proxy forces east of Tel Abyad, but the Turkish proxy forces are still holding two villages in the west of the city.

Reports of US patrols in Tel Abyad are fake. They have withdrawn and are not moving."

- Source in Tel Abyad

Some of this I heard last night sounded alarming that the Turks and Free Syrian Army/or Rebels surrounded two SDF held villages.

Wladimir is actually pretty objective reading his tweets, yes, per others, there is quite a bit of hysteria out there, too, even twitter has pulled some videos that can't be substantiated....

Don't fall for everything one sees, there is a big propaganda war going on too.. find "reliable sources" as they say.

Here's an example as that UN meeting of the Security Council points out:
Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
Lot of misguided reporting of UNSC meeting on #Syria & #Turkey

1- There was NO Veto from anyone
2- There was no Resolution to Veto
3- Russia rejected US Statement
4- Russia opposed to meaningful action beyond a statement
5- EU issued statement; US another
6- Talks continue
9:59 PM · Oct 10, 2019·Twitter for iPhone

So, just a lot of information out there we can not always be sure about.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 11, 2019, 10:29:41 AM
Norway, Nato member, has said they are not going to sell weapons to Turkey.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-norway-nato-erdogan-arms-sales (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-syria-norway-nato-erdogan-arms-sales)

Also again,  Wladimir Van Wilgenberg  (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg) Dutchman who has been over in the Kurd region for some time now has a lot of good updates.
Some of this I heard last night sounded alarming that the Turks and Free Syrian Army/or Rebels surrounded two SDF held villages.

Wladimir is actually pretty objective reading his tweets, yes, per others, there is quite a bit of hysteria out there, too, even twitter has pulled some videos that can't be substantiated....

Don't fall for everything one sees, there is a big propaganda war going on too.. find "reliable sources" as they say.

Here's an example as that UN meeting of the Security Council points out:
So, just a lot of information out there we can not always be sure about.
Norway cannot be in NATO and deny another member arms sales.

It has abrogated its commitment in the organization.

Either it needs to leave NATO or to help vote Turkey out.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 10:45:30 AM
When one understands that the Kurds for Turkey are the equivalent of the Palestinians for Israel these are mighty interesting comments from Netanyahu.

@Right_in_Virginia

Somebody comment on the possibility of Israel offering land/living space to the Kurds. Good idea,or throwing gasoline on a fire?

Assuming of course that the Kurds would even be willing to go to Israel.

I am asking because I have no idea if this would be possible or not.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 10:48:36 AM
The problem is the EU won’t do anything.

@txradioguy

Why would they when the US is willing to spend our money and the lives and health of our young soldiers to babysit Europe?

We have been babysitting and paying the bills for Europe ever since 1945,and it's time for them to put on their Big Boy Panties and take care of themselves.

They may soon be faced with the reality that it is THEIR problem and nobody but them is going to deal with it.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 11:11:57 AM
Likely you are correct.

Could the threat of a new invasion of illegals perhaps change their minds, particularly with the new Austrian Chancellor's attitude toward them?

Possibly.  But it seems like the countries that tried to put up barriers to block the illegals last time caught a metric ton of sh*t for their effort.  Most of the EU nations just bent over and took it.  Some like Germany...welcomed them with open arms and are now paying a price for their stupidity.

It was refreshing reading Kurz's desire to put an axis together to combat the illegals from getting in...especially considering his age (31).  Most Europeans his age are the ones in favor of letting them in.  He gives me hope.

And it looks like the first real test of what he wants to do is gonna come sooner than later thanks to Erdogan.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 11:13:00 AM
@txradioguy

Why would they when the US is willing to spend our money and the lives and health of our young soldiers to babysit Europe?

We have been babysitting and paying the bills for Europe ever since 1945,and it's time for them to put on their Big Boy Panties and take care of themselves.

They may soon be faced with the reality that it is THEIR problem and nobody but them is going to deal with it.

Pete what I'm referring to has nothing to do with your hyperbolic crap.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 11:56:04 AM
Norway cannot be in NATO and deny another member arms sales.

It has abrogated its commitment in the organization.

Either it needs to leave NATO or to help vote Turkey out.

Actually, I don't know if there is a written regulation that a Nato member must sell weapons to another Nato member-country.

I've already looked into that subject some. Apparently,  one might remember, Nato stands for a treaty.

When one member nation is attacked, then, there is an obligation to help them, so under that ruling,  one could make that argument.

Undoubtedly, as a Nato member, Turkey as did other Nato countries, sent troops to Afghanistan to aid the USA as a Nato member.

North Atlantic Treaty:   https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm (https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm)

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm (https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:14:37 PM
WSJ: Pentagon to deploy 2000 more troops to SA. Yes, that's really bringing the troops home! But no matter, I'm not meaning to be critical, let the militaary handle it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-to-deploy-around-2-000-additional-troops-to-saudi-arabia-11570809038 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-to-deploy-around-2-000-additional-troops-to-saudi-arabia-11570809038)

Also, there are numerous reports of airstrikes on Iranian-backed Militias near Deir-Ezzor yesterday.
https://twitter.com/VivaRevolt/status/1182434687404462081 (https://twitter.com/VivaRevolt/status/1182434687404462081)

And a bit more recently, apparently "DAESH" "ISIS" attacked an Iranian convoy in the same general area.:
https://en.deirezzor24.net/daesh-attacks-an-iranian-column-while-heading-to-deir-ezzor/ (https://en.deirezzor24.net/daesh-attacks-an-iranian-column-while-heading-to-deir-ezzor/)

Reports also that some (5) ISIS prisoners did escape
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: libertybele on October 11, 2019, 12:18:39 PM
WSJ: Pentagon to deploy 2000 more troops to SA. Yes, that's really bringing the troops home! But no matter, I'm not meaning to be critical, let the militaary handle it.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-to-deploy-around-2-000-additional-troops-to-saudi-arabia-11570809038 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-to-deploy-around-2-000-additional-troops-to-saudi-arabia-11570809038)

Also, there are numerous reports of airstrikes on Iranian-backed Militias near Deir-Ezzor yesterday.
https://twitter.com/VivaRevolt/status/1182434687404462081 (https://twitter.com/VivaRevolt/status/1182434687404462081)



And a bit more recently, apparently "DAESH" "ISIS" attacked an Iranian convoy in the same general area.:
https://en.deirezzor24.net/daesh-attacks-an-iranian-column-while-heading-to-deir-ezzor/ (https://en.deirezzor24.net/daesh-attacks-an-iranian-column-while-heading-to-deir-ezzor/)

Reports also that some (5) ISIS prisoners did escape

News being released now; Yes, the Pentagon is sending more troops to Saudi Arabia -- perhaps this will be Trump's saving grace and hopefully he realizes that listening to Rand and withdrawing troops in Syria was a big mistake.   What I also caught is that the Pentagon is hoping that Congress will allocate $$$$.  My hunch is that the House is going to say "no"!!
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: libertybele on October 11, 2019, 12:21:51 PM
Reports also now coming in that the U.S. did NOT abandon the Kurds.  Glad to see Trump changing his tune on this. 
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 12:23:17 PM
News being released now; Yes, the Pentagon is sending more troops to Saudi Arabia -- perhaps this will be Trump's saving grace and hopefully he realizes that listening to Rand and withdrawing troops in Syria was a big mistake.   What I also caught is that the Pentagon is hoping that Congress will allocate $$$$.  My hunch is that the House is going to say "no"!!

I have no problem with the troop deployment to Saudi Arabia.

However...it makes Trump's "endless wars" comment ring very very hollow.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:23:57 PM
Quote
Car bombing hits Syria's Qamishli, dozens injured and killed
Hisham Arafat

(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/QamishliBombing-(6).jpg)
The aftermath of the car bombing on Munir Habib Street, located near Qamishli's popular Omari Restaurant, Oct. 11, 2019. (Photo: Kurdistan 24/Lorans Al-Sher)

QAMISHLI, Syria (Kurdistan 24) - A car bomb exploded on Friday in the predominately Kurdish northern Syrian city of Qamishli, just as it has been targeted by cross-border airplane and artillery bombardment by Turkey. So far, the death toll from the car bombing is unconfirmed, but initial reports suggest that several people have perished and dozens have been wounded, according to initial reports.

The blast rung out on Friday on Munir Habib Street near the city's bustling Omari Restaurant, popular with residents. Three people were killed and nine were injured, according to local Kurdish security forces (Asayish).

Firefighters, ambulance workers, and rescue teams were immediately rushed to the scene to offer assistance.

People at the explosion site told Kurdistan 24 that dozens of bodies are still buried beneath under the rubble as the explosion damaged multiple buildings in the vicinity as well as burning several cars parked nearby.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/719db1f7-308f-40cb-8179-eeaa4be705fa (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/719db1f7-308f-40cb-8179-eeaa4be705fa)

See, this is in the area being invaded, still, I'll take with a grain of salt everything that is reported, even if it is by some of our more reliable news sources... why? Something could be staged and look like terrorists are aiding the Turkish effort. . So it is up to each of us to judge.  I'd lean towards this probably being true.

This town, is among the first places in the "invasion zone", "safe zone", what have you, Qamishli and there certainly are Christians in this town, already mentioned.

(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/qamishlibombing__14_.jpg)

More pictures at link.

Though, I appreciate what Trump says, Jihadism certainly can not be 100% defeated nowadays, it's a threat, there are sleeping cells, it just can't and it can't be defeated in the USA or in Europe currently. Too many factors, it can be contained greatly, I think that is so but even that needs great vigilance.



Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: libertybele on October 11, 2019, 12:29:57 PM
I have no problem with the troop deployment to Saudi Arabia.

However...it makes Trump's "endless wars" comment ring very very hollow.

Yes Trump made a decision based on sentiment rather than on facts. If he indeed listened to Rand that was a mistake and I think he hopefully is realizing that.  Rand hasn't the military experience needed to make such decisions.  What one would like to see happen and what is reality are two different things.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:30:55 PM
News being released now; Yes, the Pentagon is sending more troops to Saudi Arabia -- perhaps this will be Trump's saving grace and hopefully he realizes that listening to Rand and withdrawing troops in Syria was a big mistake.   What I also caught is that the Pentagon is hoping that Congress will allocate $$$$.  My hunch is that the House is going to say "no"!!

Rand Paul may think about the way of wanting out of EVERYWHERE... but I have seen no proof he is directly influencing the president.

Likewise, I don't think the president is changing his tune in 'abandoning the Kurds", I think that is how some of the initial story was covered but I don't know if that was ever fact.  It was withdrawing troops from that area.

It's like all of the people who say Turkey helps ISIS, it may be true but until Turkey is designated as a terror sponsor and I'd support that if true, it's all rumor.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/22/1413981456632_wps_66_FEMALE_KURDISH_SOLDIERS_B.jpg)

The Kurds really, use none of that Muslim talk though, that is the religion most are probably.

It's either the Kurd tribes Peshmerga I believe that have their own religion, Peshmerga or Yazidis.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:36:24 PM
There is a website on Syrian news called "Syria Call" but I generally post nothing from there because the stories to most of us, don't look viable. But I know some of what they've posted has been true. So, they are worth checking out some but there is just so much information out there that we can't trust. Or there is a lot of "disinformation" out there.

They've reported on a number of things about the Kurds and I don't trust their reporting but all the same, it could be true. I think this "Syria Call" is tied up to the so-called "Syrian Free Army":

Quote
YPG militia kidnap and immerse children on the frontlines of fighting in northeastern Syria
  11 Oct, 2019 14:18

The YPG militia forced children of school students to the fronts of fighting against Turkish and Syrian National Army forces in northeastern Syria after they kidnapped them.

Activists said the YPG militia abducted students between the ages of 14 and 17 in front of the Unified School in the city of Hasakah on Thursday.

This is not the first time that the militia have taken and placed children in battlefields and training camps, where UNICEF and United Nations reports confirm that it is a systematic behavior of the YPG.

Read more at: https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16282

Just an example. Trustworthy or not.  BUT, they certainly have some good photos that I've seen and I give them credit on that.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
@Right_in_Virginia

Somebody comment on the possibility of Israel offering land/living space to the Kurds. Good idea,or throwing gasoline on a fire? 

Gasoline on a fire.  I think if any group of Muslims has first dibs on carving out a nation-state from Israeli land it would be the Palestinians, not the Kurds.   

I also doubt Israel would voluntarily bring radical Muslims who are part of a group on a terror watch list to live in Tel Aviv --- another strike against the Kurds.   

Just my $.02    happy77
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:46:26 PM
Actually, Caroline Glick is a respected reporter by Conservatives, I think she also writes for Breitbart.


Quote
Caroline B. Glick

Caroline Glick is an award-winning columnist and author of "The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East."
Home Opinions
Trump did not betray the Kurds
The US has neither major influence in Syria nor an interest in confronting Turkey to protect the Kurds. Trump avoided war with Turkey this week and began extracting America from an open-ended commitment to the Kurds it never made.
by  Caroline B. Glick
Published on  2019-10-11 10:01
Last modified: 2019-10-11 10:02

The near-consensus view of US President Donald Trump’s decision to remove American special forces from the Syrian border with Turkey is that Trump is enabling a Turkish invasion and double-crossing the Syrian Kurds who have fought with the Americans for five years against the Islamic State group. Trump’s move, the thinking goes, harms US credibility and undermines US power in the region and throughout the world.

There are several problems with this narrative. The first is that it assumes that until this week, the US had power and influence in Syria when in fact, by design, the US went to great lengths to limit its ability to influence events there.

The war in Syria broke out in 2011 as a popular insurrection by Syrian Sunnis against the Iranian-sponsored regime of President Bashar Assad. The Obama administration responded by declaring US support for Assad’s overthrow. But the declaration was empty. The administration sat on its thumbs as the regime’s atrocities mounted. It supported a feckless Turkish effort to raise a resistance army dominated by jihadist elements aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood.

President Barack Obama infamously issued his “red line” regarding the use of chemical weapons against civilians by Assad, which he repudiated the moment it was crossed.

Read more at:  https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/trump-did-not-betray-the-kurds/ (https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/trump-did-not-betray-the-kurds/)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 11, 2019, 12:47:19 PM
Gasoline on a fire.  I think if any group of Muslims has first dibs on carving out a nation-state from Israeli land it would be the Palestinians, not the Kurds.   

I also doubt Israel would voluntarily bring radical Muslims who are part of a group on a terror watch list to live in Tel Aviv --- another strike against the Kurds.   

Just my $.02    happy77

@Right_in_Virginia

Thanks. I didn't realize the Kurds were Muslims. I thought they had their own hippy-dippy religion. Now that I know they are Muslims,WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING HELPING THEM? Don't they know that Islam is at war with us? It was in all the papers.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:50:12 PM
My 2 cents is a lot of people say Turkey has aided Jihadists in Syria, if not ISIS where I don't think the connections are that strong but I don't think it is even denied they cooperate with some other groups like Tahrir al Sham, if this is so, Turkey needs to be designated as a state sponsor of Terrorism.  Do it if you want to put weight behind the assertion that Turkey likewise, cooperates with Terrorists.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 12:53:04 PM
Gasoline on a fire.  I think if any group of Muslims has first dibs on carving out a nation-state from Israeli land it would be the Palestinians, not the Kurds.   

I also doubt Israel would voluntarily bring radical Muslims who are part of a group on a terror watch list to live in Tel Aviv --- another strike against the Kurds.   

Just my $.02    happy77

Okay, and Trump admits to arming that terror group, that just needs to be stated as well.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/05/09/trump-approves-arming-kurds-in-defiance-of-turkey.html (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/05/09/trump-approves-arming-kurds-in-defiance-of-turkey.html)

I don't know if the knock against the PKK is being radical Muslims though, more like being Marxist Revolutionaries.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: jpsb on October 11, 2019, 12:55:53 PM
Norway cannot be in NATO and deny another member arms sales.

It has abrogated its commitment in the organization.

Either it needs to leave NATO or to help vote Turkey out.

Then why is the USA refusing to give Turkey the F-35s that Turkey bought? Turkey needs to be booted out of NATO. They are rapidly
becoming anther Islamic state. Turkey used to be a secular state, that is no longer the case.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:01:40 PM
@Right_in_Virginia

Thanks. I didn't realize the Kurds were Muslims. I thought they had their own hippy-dippy religion. Now that I know they are Muslims,WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING HELPING THEM? Don't they know that Islam is at war with us? It was in all the papers.

Doesn't look like a Muslim to me. I think it's trying to get cheap brownie points, my $.02 cents, to try to paint them as part of the radical Muslim community. They are more like freedom fighters:

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1000/1*UYrKW450IjuYe74fnn9CXw.jpeg)

Do they yell "allahu akbar" when they attack?  I'd think most "experts" would not be calling them Muslim-type radicals, this is something else.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: musiclady on October 11, 2019, 01:05:40 PM
Doesn't look like a Muslim to me. I think it's trying to get cheap brownie points, my $.02 cents, to try to paint them as part of the radical Muslim community. They are more like freedom fighters:

Do they yell "allahu akbar" when they attack?  I'd think most "experts" would not be calling them Muslim-type radicals, this is something else.

A Muslim doesn't "look like" anything in particular.

Have you ever been to Bosnia?
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:06:55 PM
Posted yesterday by another member:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

So, try to make a case they are Islamic radicals, I think that there is nothing to that argument.

They are probably called terrorists as a favor to Nato member Turkey actually.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:09:09 PM
A Muslim doesn't "look like" anything in particular.

Have you ever been to Bosnia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers%27_Party

Yes, I have in fact... but anyway, above is the article posted yesterday. Anyone saying "Well, their Muslims", okay, make the case that the PKK is a Muslim Extremist organization, they aren't. This really isn't about religion with them.

BTW, Trump has admitted arming PKK, terrorist-designated group... so besides all the other points, might that not be a serious matter? ?

What if the President was arming Israel's foes, Hamas or Hezbollah?  I mean, it started under the Obama administration but it seems on the surface, it is a serious wrong per letter of the law to arm terrorist designated groups.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
Doesn't look like a Muslim to me. I think it's trying to get cheap brownie points, my $.02 cents, to try to paint them as part of the radical Muslim community. They are more like freedom fighters:

Remove the "muslim" @TomSea and replace it with militant communist. 

But if you're going to say the PKK is a group of freedom fighters then you must also say this of the Palestinians.  Both groups have used terror and guerilla warfare as their weapons of choice against the sovereignty of a nation for decades.  There's no getting around this ---  no matter how slick your photos or subtle your snark.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:22:48 PM
Remove the "muslim" @TomSea and replace it with militant communist. 

But if you're going to say the PKK is a group of freedom fighters then you must also say this of the Palestinians.  Both groups have used terror and guerilla warfare as their weapons of choice against the sovereignty of a nation for decades.  There's no getting around this ---  no matter how slick your photos or subtle your snark.

Nobody is using snark or slick photos.

Again, I think the center-point is, the executive branch has armed the Kurds and likely the PKK... it sounds like Trump has admitted to it.

So, if you have a problem with that, made you should turn your attention to the executive branch of the last 2 presidents.
Quote
Turkey has sought in vain to persuade the US to break its alliance with the Syrian Kurds, accusing the YPG of being the Syrian arm of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) that has been waging a guerrilla war against the Turkish state since 1984. “Both the PKK and the YPG are terrorist organisations and they are no different, apart from their names,” said Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavasoglu on Tuesday. “Every weapon seized by them is a threat to Turkey.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-isis-syria-crisis-kurdish-fighters-turkey-raqqa-ypg-a7728741.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-isis-syria-crisis-kurdish-fighters-turkey-raqqa-ypg-a7728741.html)

SDF defeated ISIS, a far greater evil. Maybe if  you have criticisms, it should be for 2 presidents that armed the Kurds, I'm all for that but it could be interpreted as wrong and serious if people are going by the letter of the law so much.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 11, 2019, 01:23:08 PM
Then why is the USA refusing to give Turkey the F-35s that Turkey bought? Turkey needs to be booted out of NATO. They are rapidly
becoming anther Islamic state. Turkey used to be a secular state, that is no longer the case.
Good Question.  A hollow defense treaty.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:25:10 PM
Again, from the same article:

Quote
Mr Trump approved a plan on Monday to arm the Kurds directly, in order to enable the People’s Mobilisation Units (YPG) Kurdish militia and its Arab allies to assault and capture Raqqa, the de facto capital of Isis in Syria. The US will send heavy machine guns, anti-tank weapons, mortars, armoured cars and engineering equipment to bolster the attack.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-isis-syria-crisis-kurdish-fighters-turkey-raqqa-ypg-a7728741.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/donald-trump-isis-syria-crisis-kurdish-fighters-turkey-raqqa-ypg-a7728741.html)

Not my problem, I'm glad we did in fact, but if one is being consistent in talking the Kurd guerillas down, I'd think they have to acknowledge my point.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:28:19 PM
Good Question.  A hollow defense treaty.

Not really,  a Nato treaty should not give "carte blanche" to a Nato member to act however they want.

Why didn't we sell those to Turkey? Because they are being palsy with Russia to set up a missile defense system in Turkey.

But a much more clear example, is Turkey drilling off of Cyprus. Clearly, this can not be given tacit approval. Clearly, this seems to violate international law:

https://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Cyprus-Turkey-s-new-gas-drilling-bid-severe-14491337.php (https://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Cyprus-Turkey-s-new-gas-drilling-bid-severe-14491337.php)

I'd say one would have to read the Nato treaty in the context in which it was written, in the Cold War, a few years after World War II.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 01:35:45 PM
Amazingly, here is video from the SDF of Turkey bombing that prison:

https://twitter.com/mutludc/status/1182702824406290432

In the end, over there, everyone can probably be called dirty in some way, certainly the Syrian regime is and a lot of people fighting against them, nothing is perfect. And Turkey probably should be like Syria and Iran, designated state-sponsors of terrorism.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 11, 2019, 01:41:21 PM
Fighting terrorism and the terrorists as far away from our shores as we can.

We've been doing that since the Barbary Pirates...in pretty much the same area we're in now.


@txradioguy


Exaclty. Since the Isolationist like to lie about our past they somehow forget about this little tidbit.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 11, 2019, 01:45:35 PM
By the way there are two things I just on Twitter:


1. ISIS prisoners are escaping
2. We are sending more troops to Saudi Arabia.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 01:49:11 PM

@txradioguy


Exaclty. Since the Isolationist like to lie about our past they somehow forget about this little tidbit.

They have very selective memories.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 11, 2019, 01:53:20 PM
The problem is the EU won’t do anything.

Mnuchin just announced proposed economic sanctions against Turkey.  No link yet, just saw it on the TeeVee.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: libertybele on October 11, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
By the way there are two things I just on Twitter:


1. ISIS prisoners are escaping
2. We are sending more troops to Saudi Arabia.

ISIS prisoners are escaping??? Not to worry, Trump said they'd be escaping to Europe!   :whistle:
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 11, 2019, 02:03:36 PM
They have very selective memories.


I think the last time we listened to them was in the 1930's and look what happened.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: kevindavis on October 11, 2019, 02:04:21 PM
ISIS prisoners are escaping??? Not to worry, Trump said they'd be escaping to Europe!   :whistle:


I'm sure our allies in Europe are going to like it. So we might be fighitng another war in Europe.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 02:11:03 PM
 When "BAD" is mass killing over there, commited by whomever, the Kurds and maybe even Turkey are way down the hierarchy of evil.

Aina.org even has a recent story on a Christian Syrian refugee in Turkey who is doing fairly well as a baker in Turkey, will post later.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 04:50:38 PM
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister

Charles Lister is a good reporter... so to be speak, I lost the tweet but it said ANF and not the SDF, forces we back, ran the prison where allegedly, ISIS prisoners escaped....

Also, I think I saw a story, US jets fired on Iranian fighters..... I want to at least, be able to post a source for this. I think this was with Charles as well.

Oh and PS per above, let's say both Obama and Trump armed the PKK or YPG, let's just say.

I think I will put all the helpful twitter accounts in post #1 later on.

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam

https://twitter.com/janetcalif    <--- This last one is very biased for the Kurds but might still be helpful...

https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky

When we went into the first Gulf War, '90, '91, Syria was a member of that 72, 49 country coalition FWIW, Syria was a designated state-sponsor of terrorism even then.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 11, 2019, 04:56:00 PM
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister

Charles Lister is a good reporter... so to be speak, I lost the tweet but it said ANF and not the SDF, forces we back, ran the prison where allegedly, ISIS prisoners escaped....

Also, I think I saw a story, US jets fired on Iranian fighters..... I want to at least, be able to post a source for this. I think this was with Charles as well.

Oh and PS per above, let's say both Obama and Trump armed the PKK or YPG, let's just say.

When we went into the first Gulf War, '90, '91, Syria was a member of that 72, 49 country coalition FWIW, Syria was a designated state-sponsor of terrorism even then.

IIRC, the only two countries not involved with Desert Storm were Jordan and Israel.  If Israel had gotten in, almost all the Arab League countries would have bolted.  Jordan stayed out because both countries were Baath, I think.  Something like that.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 05:22:19 PM
Charles Lister:

Quote
Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
#pt: Local reports now say U.S. jets are bombing #Iran-backed militias positioned cross the #Euphrates, further south near the village of al-Abbas.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1182748841206059008

Could this be because Iranian forces were said to be shooting at the SDF???

This all sounds like "HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS" time...l and some of these stories don't pan out, so just saying....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates

I know the Euphrates from the Bible not per Iraq but you hear it mentioned over and over again in the news. So, that link, kind of tells us something if one is curious.

Addendum: I apologize @Right_in_Virginia   if I came off snarky,  that was certainly not my intention. You contribute many good things to this forum and I would not want to offend you.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: txradioguy on October 11, 2019, 08:21:48 PM

Brett McGurk

@brett_mcgurk
Replying to @brett_mcgurk
Hard truth: Erdogan knows that Trump wants U.S. forces to leave Syria. Putin knows that Trump wants U.S. forces to leave Syria. Khamenei and Assad know the same thing. Trump himself yesterday (incredibly) said we no longer have forces in Syria. We do, and today they were shot at.


Brett McGurk

@brett_mcgurk
Replying to @brett_mcgurk
It is dangerous to keep Americans in harm’s way with no support or backing from their commander-in-chief. Marie Yovanovoch spoke to this principle for diplomats confronting the Russians in Ukraine. The same goes for our brave soldiers and diplomats on the ground tonight in Syria.



Brett McGurk

@brett_mcgurk
Replying to @brett_mcgurk
It is equally wrong and immoral to make any false promises to the SDF and suggest that Trump is committed to staying in Syria when everyone knows that he is not. These false promises delayed, and may now have foreclosed, what was an alternative arrangement for them with others.



Brett McGurk

@brett_mcgurk
Replying to @brett_mcgurk
And with each day this Turkish attack continues, the risks increase for American personnel and our ability to get out safely at all becomes gravely jeopardized. Either Trump changes course rapidly and clearly (ASAP) or else it is necessary to plan a safe exit.

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 08:54:32 PM
Quote
"The greatest mistake our country has made is going into the quicksand of the Middle East." -- Donald J. Trump, Oct 10, 2019
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 09:48:54 PM
Quote
"The greatest mistake our country has made is going into the quicksand of the Middle East." -- Donald J. Trump, Oct 10, 2019

Quote
October 11, 2019
US to send 1,800 troops, dozens of fighter jets to Saudi Arabia amid Iran tensions
 Fox News  (https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-troops-fighter-jets-saudi-arabia-iran.amp)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 11, 2019, 11:20:49 PM
The 3 or 4 stories below are from AINA, Assyrian International News Agency.... the Assyrians, so Christians. This website basically conglomerates news articles from the rest of the web.

http://aina.org (http://aina.org)

First off, I think we should be helpiing the SDF as much as possible, you will find negative stories on them, I figure, they're probably pretty rare or false. Anyway, we are not doing the best thing and I'll leave it up to the likes of people like Haley, Rubio and so on... though, the President may know some things we don't.

From June, 2019:
Quote
15 Assyrian Children Kidnapped By Kurdish Affiliated Militia in Syria
Posted 2019-06-20 04:29 GMT

Qamishli, Syria (AINA) -- According to a report on Assyria TV, an internet Assyrian channel based in Stockholm, 15 Assyrian girls and boys have been abduction by members of the Syriac Military Council (MFS). MFS is a militia tied to the Syriac Union Party, which in turn is part of a secretive Assyrian political group known as the Dawronoye, (ܕܲܘܪܵܢܵܝܹܐ), who emerged with the help of the Kurdish PKK party in the late 1980s in south east Turkey. The Dawronoye are close allies of the PYD, the Kurdish party in control of large parts of north eastern Syria.

http://aina.org/news/20190620002945.htm (http://aina.org/news/20190620002945.htm)

So, it's tricky but to today's news:

Quote
Christian Communities in Northeast Syria Are the Target of a Turkish Attack
By Matthew Petti
https://nationalinterest.org (https://nationalinterest.org)
Posted 2019-10-11 23:22 GMT
(http://aina.org/images/20150226165758.jpg)
Assyrian fighters of Sutoro (The Syriac Security Office) carry their weapons as they man a checkpoint in the town of Tel Tamr, Syria, Feb. 25, 2015.
Church bells rang out across th
e plains of northeast Syria, warning villagers to seek shelter from incoming air raids. It was the first time in a century that the Christian communities in the region were forced to take shelter from a Turkish attack.

The Syriac-Assyrians and Armenians of northeast Syria have been divided on their feelings towards the Kurdish-led, U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Council (SDC) that took control of the area after the defeat of ISIS. But they remain united against the prospect of a war between Turkey and the Kurds, which is now beginning to wreak havoc on their homeland.

Read more at: http://aina.org/news/20191011192208.htm (http://aina.org/news/20191011192208.htm)

Quote
Syndicated News
Turkey's Deadly 'safe Zone'
By Mindy Belz
https://world.wng.org (https://world.wng.org)
Posted 2019-10-11 21:19 GMT
Select Language​▼
Bookmark and Share

The wife of Fadi Sabri Hasbouno, injured in Qameshli in a Turkish bombing that burned the couple's shop and destroyed half their home.
Turkish forces launched a bombing campaign across northeastern Syria on Wednesday, targeting civilian areas and killing Syriac Christians.

The bombing campaign, launched less than 48 hours after a phone call between President Donald Trump and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, appeared to target Christian and Kurdish enclaves in the cities of Qameshli, Kobani, and others. Shelling also hit the border town of Nusaybin, in Turkey, where the oldest church in a region once dominated by the earliest Christians is located.

As the Turkish air assault began, Assyrian leader Gabriel Moshe of Qameshli told me, "There are many rockets in Qameshli and at least one girl of our people is dead."

Read more at: http://aina.org/news/20191011171952.htm (http://aina.org/news/20191011171952.htm)

This last article, they took from "The Daily Sabah", that's Turkish news.

Quote
Syndicated News
YPG Forces Assyrians to Fight Against Turkey
https://www.dailysabah.com (https://www.dailysabah.com)
Posted 2019-10-11 22:45 GMT
Select Language​▼
Bookmark and Share

The PKK Syrian affiliate, the People's Protection Units (YPG) reportedly forced a local Christian community to fight Turkey in northern Syria, said the Iraqi Christian Foundation.

After the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and the Syrian National Army (SNA) launched Operation Peace Spring, the YPG and PKK supporters began spreading propaganda, claiming that Turkish forces were targeting the region's Christian community.

However, reports from the region paint a completely different picture. Local and international Assyrian Christians' foundations released statements rejecting these claims. They said the YPG was forcing them to fight against Turkey.

Read more at: http://aina.org/news/20191011184503.htm (http://aina.org/news/20191011184503.htm)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 11:30:00 PM
BTW, Trump has admitted arming PKK, terrorist-designated group... so besides all the other points, might that not be a serious matter? ?   

Great point @TomSea   I'm with you on this ... we should stop arming PKK immediately!!   :beer:
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 11, 2019, 11:31:53 PM

First off, I think we should be helping the SDF as much as possible,

Helping them accomplish what, exactly?  @TomSea
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 12:10:55 AM
Great point @TomSea   I'm with you on this ... we should stop arming PKK immediately!!   :beer:

So, we are admitting Trump and indeed, Obama may have done wrong in arming the PKK.  Okay.

No, I'm certainly not for disarming the SDF, they defeated ISIS (to an extent) with coalition forces air support.

Helping them accomplish what, exactly?  @TomSea

Ask the State Department, I thought you were the big Trump defender,  they are saying they haven't abandoned the SDF/Kurds.

https://www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/us-military-says-its-not-abandoning-kurds/news-story/ecb095fe5c14be31bc84bfd8bf852298 (https://www.news.com.au/world/breaking-news/us-military-says-its-not-abandoning-kurds/news-story/ecb095fe5c14be31bc84bfd8bf852298)

https://www.news18.com/news/india/we-have-not-abandoned-the-kurds-says-us-as-turkey-intensifies-offensive-in-northeast-syria-2342585.html (https://www.news18.com/news/india/we-have-not-abandoned-the-kurds-says-us-as-turkey-intensifies-offensive-in-northeast-syria-2342585.html)

Oh, and help them per the ISIS prisoners, 5,000 that they have imprisoned. I even heard it may be up to 10,000. Maybe that includes family members.
Title: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 12:14:35 AM
Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Conservative Review, Oct 10, 2019, Daniel Horowitz

A simple analogy vividly depicts the lesson lost on most in the Republican foreign policy establishment who believe we need American soldiers left precariously and indefinitely on the ground in tribal civil wars in order to keep us safe. When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts. You stand outside from a position of strength, define your interests, and zap any one of the adversaries that comes out of the tank and inside your zone of interest.

President Trump is well on his way to learning the lesson of not diving head-first into the cesspool. He should follow up with strong action to protect our interests, using the right soft power tools to deter our enemies. That will go a long way toward framing his move out of Syria as a more effective means of deterring a complex web of multiple enemies – often at war with each other – and putting our interests first.

As I’ve noted many times, there is simply no reason for us to have a ground presence in Syria at this point. That is a position I’ve maintained since the beginning of the civil war, regardless of who was president.   The tangled web of alliances and enemies is dizzying just to articulate.  [...]

Thus, in order to effectively advocate for intervention there, one needs to craft an ever-elusive solution to deal with all of the differently interested powers in the region. But people like Lindsey Graham who want our soldiers engaged in Syria don’t have a plan. The same people who demanded we be the ones to fight ISIS (the Sunni insurgency in its most recent, but certainly not final, iteration) are the ones who also complain about Iran and Assad. But nobody has explained how, since we fought the Sunni insurgency, we were not the ones who empowered Iranian hegemony in the region for free. With our troops out of the region, Russia and Iran would have to face the Sunni backlash without us keeping it in check for them.


Read more:  https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/ (https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/)
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 12:19:07 AM
Quote
...you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts. You stand outside from a position of strength, define your interests, and zap any one of the adversaries that comes out of the tank and inside your zone of interest.

Worth repeating AND remembering.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 12:22:13 AM
Also FTA

Quote
Let Turkey, Russia, and Iran fight with each other over the tribal lands and then have the Sunni insurgency constantly attacking their forces. Now, Turkey’s and Russia’s interests will directly clash over the Sunnis and support for Assad. Meanwhile, let’s focus on our own immigration, the border, visas, and terror finance.
It’s time to make our homeland the cornerstone of national security, while using foreign assets as a support role, not focus solely on the borders of other nations while inviting the mess from all sides of the cesspool into our own country.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Texas Yellow Rose on October 12, 2019, 01:18:51 AM
I posted this on another thread ... it is a video on what "they" are saying (from Turkey)

https://www.facebook.com/insah.akrin/videos/2497646223846276/ (https://www.facebook.com/insah.akrin/videos/2497646223846276/)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 01:19:51 AM
Quote
Middle East
US: “We will not abandon the Kurds;” calls on Turkey to stop attack in Syria; but is rebuffed by Erdogan
Laurie Mylroie Laurie Mylroie

(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/Esper.jpg)
US Secretary of Defense Mark Esper at a Pentagon briefing, Aug. 28, 2019. (Photo: AFP/Alex Wong)

WASHINGTON DC (Kurdistan 24) – Amid mounting bipartisan criticism of the limited US response to Turkey’s cross-border attack into northeast Syria, the US signaled a major shift in policy on Friday.

 Read More: Trump defends Syria decision, backs refugees’ move to 'safe zone,' as Congressional criticism grows   (http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/31ce2a52-5b7a-4809-8d1a-c0ffbaa351a5)

The shift was signaled in briefings given by senior officials, first by the Pentagon and then by the Treasury Department.

At the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Mark Esper and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark Milley, strongly and publicly expressed their opposition to the assault, while affirming that the US would not abandon its Kurdish allies.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/746b11d9-ad16-41c4-ad7d-e20616ad13a7 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/746b11d9-ad16-41c4-ad7d-e20616ad13a7)

Policeman isn't even the exact right word, what we are doing somewhat, and I fully respect those who are caught in this war, is babysitting the whole situation and I don't mean that in a way to besmirch anyone.  They gave us their all. We need to help out, BE LOYAL, on the other hand, reading an article, I noted another softspot with the Turks, how we keep this Gulen fellow who seems to be wanted over there. I certainly can't make sense of that.

This is from August but very timely.

Quote
August 27-2019     07:22 PM
The Turkish threat to the NATO alliance
Halmat Palani

Following the territorial defeat of the so-called Islamic State in Syria in March 2019, President Donald Trump announced, “Mission accomplished,” and declared that the United States would be pulling out of Syria as part of his foreign policy goal of untangling America from involvement in wars overseas. While Turkey, Russia, and Syrian President Bashar al-Assad welcomed Trump’s announcement, the Syrian Kurds were left greatly worried because of threats by Turkey to invade Syrian Kurdistan (Rojava), the multi-ethnic administration that is essentially a Kurdish project but is ruled with Arabs and other ethnicities in northeastern Syria.

The withdrawal announcement came amid heightened tension between Washington and Ankara which began with a failed coup that President Recep Tayyip Erdogan claims Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen, who lives in exile in Massachusetts, was behind. The recent purchase of S-400 fighter jets from Russia has, however, taken Turkey’s belligerence and exploitation of its NATO membership to a new level.

While it is quite reasonable to acknowledge Turkey’s security concerns, playing both sides of the fence and buying Russian weapons is tantamount to aiding Russia which has been a clear adversary to the US and the NATO alliance since the Cold War. According to Senior Fellow Fedriga Bindi at the School of Advanced International Studies at John Hopkins University, Erdogan “has essentially been given the all-clear to do what he wants, and this is not only damaging NATO, but also the whole Western community—and its values system.” In other words, while not the only one, Turkey’s actions under Erdogan threatens the strategic interests of NATO in the Middle East as well as the democratic values and principles that underlie it as an institution.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/opinion/5c55a138-4a6c-44f1-99db-2b0390f02648 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/opinion/5c55a138-4a6c-44f1-99db-2b0390f02648)

It's interesting that the very man who could somewhat defeat ISIS, the only candidate in the election itself, of course, other candidates would have been competent from the GOP in this department, but this president was at least, able to put ISIS on its backheels, that part of the war was good.

I hope Haley, Rubio and others continue to send out there message.

Graham is smart, Rubio is but don't let them fool you that they have complete knowledge on all of this, they are busy people. Tom Cotton was at the Trump rally last night, I haven't heard him comment much on this, he probably has and I've just missed it. No, I don't see Cotton quite commenting on this.

But it is better to get information from all sides. Make up one's mind then.
Quote
4 Turkish soldiers killed since beginning of Turkish incursion into northern Syria
By   TM -   October 12, 2019

Four Turkish soldiers have been killed since Wednesday, when the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) launched a military offensive in northern Syria against the Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG), which it sees as a terrorist group, according to Turkish media reports.

Turkey launched its long-planned operation on Wednesday aimed at taking out the Kurdish forces it sees as terrorists but which most of the West views as key partners in the fight against Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) militants. The Turkish military operation began days after a surprise and widely criticized White House announcement that US forces would withdraw from the region.

More: https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/10/12/4-turkish-soldiers-killed-since-beginning-of-turkish-incursion-into-northern-syria/ (https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/10/12/4-turkish-soldiers-killed-since-beginning-of-turkish-incursion-into-northern-syria/)

For total transparency, I believe I have heard "Turkish Minute" is backed by that Gulen fellow.

When the coup happened, that Turk basketball player,  Ennis Kanter  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enes_Kanter) actually said he was with Gulen when that   Coup attempt happened of 2016  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt) and Kanter didn't note anything strange from Gulen.... so, this is all a lot of intrigue.

Trump should talk to Kanter! Invite him to the White House.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 02:02:38 AM
@Texas Yellow Rose

Great, thanks so much for that.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 12, 2019, 02:31:06 AM
Rand Paul may think about the way of wanting out of EVERYWHERE... but I have seen no proof he is directly influencing the president.

Likewise, I don't think the president is changing his tune in 'abandoning the Kurds", I think that is how some of the initial story was covered but I don't know if that was ever fact.  It was withdrawing troops from that area.

It's like all of the people who say Turkey helps ISIS, it may be true but until Turkey is designated as a terror sponsor and I'd support that if true, it's all rumor.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/10/22/1413981456632_wps_66_FEMALE_KURDISH_SOLDIERS_B.jpg)

The Kurds really, use none of that Muslim talk though, that is the religion most are probably.

It's either the Kurd tribes Peshmerga I believe that have their own religion, Peshmerga or Yazidis.
The Yazidis.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Jazzhead on October 12, 2019, 02:52:02 AM
Good article, sound perspective, deserves a bump.

The Middle East is the intractable problem.  Tribalism at its most destructive. Migrants from the area fleeing to the Western world.

And many of 'em are absorbed by Turkey.   They can turn the spigot on if they want to. 

Trump's instincts are right that we ought not have boots on the ground.  Let others, more dependent than we are on their filthy oil luchre ,  deal with these tribes and their centuries-old animosities. 
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
The Trump administration said it will not abandon the Kurds. This idiot Horowitz is not saying this. This idiot Horowitz is talking about expanding Iran's power.

Let's not forget others who have said "Well, this is tribal", duh, I didn't vote for Obama II. We don't need Jihadi Don building up ISIS. 

Thankfully, this is not what the administration is standing for.

Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: jpsb on October 12, 2019, 07:24:28 AM
Worth repeating AND remembering.

Pulling the troops out of Syria is one thing. Green lighting Turkey to invade Syria so the Turks can wipe out our Kurd allies is an entirely
different thing.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: jpsb on October 12, 2019, 07:35:14 AM
@Texas Yellow Rose

Great, thanks so much for that.

Complete Bull Sh*t. Ask the Armenians in Turkey, oh wait

Under Erdoğan the once secular Turkey is becoming a (radical) Islamic state. Screw Turkey, boot them out of NATO.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 07:36:27 AM
Quote
Middle East
US: “We will not abandon the Kurds;” calls on Turkey to stop attack in Syria; but is rebuffed by Erdogan
Laurie Mylroie Laurie Mylroie

(https://kurdistan24.blob.core.windows.net/filemanager/resources/files/2019/10/Esper.jpg)
US Secretary of Defense Mark Esper at a Pentagon briefing, Aug. 28, 2019. (Photo: AFP/Alex Wong)

WASHINGTON DC (Kurdistan 24) – Amid mounting bipartisan criticism of the limited US response to Turkey’s cross-border attack into northeast Syria, the US signaled a major shift in policy on Friday.

 Read More: Trump defends Syria decision, backs refugees’ move to 'safe zone,' as Congressional criticism grows   (http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/31ce2a52-5b7a-4809-8d1a-c0ffbaa351a5)

The shift was signaled in briefings given by senior officials, first by the Pentagon and then by the Treasury Department.

At the Pentagon, Secretary of Defense Mark Esper and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark Milley, strongly and publicly expressed their opposition to the assault, while affirming that the US would not abandon its Kurdish allies.

Read more at: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/746b11d9-ad16-41c4-ad7d-e20616ad13a7 (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/746b11d9-ad16-41c4-ad7d-e20616ad13a7)

Even Ragip Soylu, as close to a reasonable defender of Turkey is saying:

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
I’m 100% sure, more than half of the people who tweet about Turkey’s incursion in Syria really don’t care about the civilian deaths, or whatever catastrophe Syrians will get through.

THEY JUST WANNA GET AT TRUMP. That’s the only thing they care about. 

And that’s sick.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182764115447734272 (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182764115447734272)

Be careful not to get caught up in the hysteria, I want the truth.... the least, we can try to do is to be fair.
Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
14h
There are at least two senior US officials who told US media that US forces WERE NOT UNDER ATTACK IN KOBANE.

How many people who tweeted Newsweek story will share this information?

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182763353405558784 (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1182763353405558784)

I came across Ragip in the past, he seems to have some integrity actually, not plugging for his side, we need to examine the info.

The initial reporting, "greenlighting the invasion",  I am not sure about that... if the initial reporting is in error.... hopefully, this stuff goes to the UN or places at least, where a fair look can be given it.

I'm definitely not with those who are just blaming Trump or even the Turks. A lot of misinformation about.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: jpsb on October 12, 2019, 07:53:57 AM
Even Ragip Soylu, as close to a reasonable defender of Turkey is saying:

Be careful not to get caught up in the hysteria, I want the truth.... the least, we can try to do is to be fair.
I came across Ragip in the past, he seems to have some integrity actually, not plugging for his side, we need to examine the info.

The initial reporting, "greenlighting the invasion",  I am not sure about that... if the initial reporting is in error.... hopefully, this stuff goes to the UN or places at least, where a fair look can be given it.

I'm definitely not with those who are just blaming Trump or even the Turks. A lot of misinformation about.

@TomSea

Trump has a phone call with Turkey's Erdoğan. Erdoğan asks Trump to move US forces out of the area because his is planning to invade
and attack the Kurds. The next day to the surprise of EVERYONE Trump announces that he is ordering US forces out of the area. Now
you made not thing that is "green lighted" but everyone else knows it is.  The only "but" is that the blow back on his horrible decision
has been so huge it's forced him to rethink the issue and now he trying to walk it back. But walking it back will not be easy and will
depend on events on the ground in Syria. We'll see how many Kurds are killed and how many cities, towns and villages are "cleaned" of
Kurds and Christians.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 07:58:08 AM
@TomSea

Trump has a phone call with Turkey's Erdoğan. Erdoğan asks Trump to move US forces out of the area because his is planning to invade
and attack the Kurds. The next day to the surprise of EVERYONE Trump announces that he is ordering US forces out of the area. Now
you made not thing that is "green lighted" but everyone else knows it is.  The only "but" is that the blow back on his horrible decision
has been so huge it's forced him to rethink the issue and now he trying to walk it back. But walking it back will not be easy and will
depend on events on the ground in Syria. We'll see how many Kurds are killed and how many cities, towns and villages are "cleaned" of
Kurds and Christians.

Quote
Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
DOD working hard to back away from being accused of "green-lighting" #Turkey's cross-border campaign into NE #Syria.

SecDef Esper just said "once #Turkey announced its offensive" we moved our troops away for "force protection... We're not abandoning #SDF."

That's BS, frankly.

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1182690396314505216

The above reporter certainly agrees with you.  These are hard decisions. I guess, you are right but things are moving so fast at this point.  Also, we didn't have many troops there to begin with.

Anyway, I'm not with the apologists, I am for gathering as much info as we can.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: jpsb on October 12, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
The above reporter certainly agrees with you.  These are hard decisions. I guess, you are right but things are moving so fast at this point.  Also, we didn't have many troops there to begin with.

Anyway, I'm not with the apologists, I am for gathering as much info as we can.

@TomSea

Well you are doing a great job of gathering info, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 12, 2019, 09:20:06 AM
Here's a story by an instructor at the Army War College who is not a politician nor a reporter.

Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
Quote
President Trump’s decision to withdraw our few troops from the Syria-Turkey border area earned him considerable criticism from allies.  Senator Lindsey Graham said the decision is “a catastrophe in the making.” Representative Lin Cheney said it’s “a catastrophic mistake.”  Former UN Secretary Nikki Haley said, “We must always have the backs of our allies.”

President Trump has answered these critics.  The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group.  Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.

The Kurds’ problem, and by association that of the U.S., is that regional powers like Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran and Syria have long held the Kurds in disdain.  In fact, Turkey considers the Syrian Kurds to be allies of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or (PKK), which are Turkish Kurds and terrorists fighting for independence for the last 35 years.   

Basically, the Kurds hijacked our fight with ISIS to feed their regional civil war to earn independence.

President Trump is aware of that agenda and is also trying to constrain American hawks who want to use our military willy-nilly across the world.  Remember that Trump frequently said during his 2016 campaign that he wants to escape from endless wars and bring our fighters home.   
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html)
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 10:21:43 AM
The Trump administration said it will not abandon the Kurds. This idiot Horowitz is not saying this. This idiot Horowitz is talking about expanding Iran's power.  Let's not forget others who have said "Well, this is tribal", duh, I didn't vote for Obama II. We don't need Jihadi Don building up ISIS.     

This "idiot" is on the side of supporting the Kurds by proxy @TomSea  He is also on the side of reining in Turkey.

And all wars and terrorism in the Middle East ARE tribal, and the next Sunni iteration of ISIS is already underway, whether we're in Syria or not.  It's in their blood.

You appear to have missed the first paragraph .... permit me to add some breaks to make it easier to read .... then please tell me what you disagree with since this is the nub of the "idiot's" thesis on what our strategy in the quicksand of the Middle East should be:

Quote
A simple analogy vividly depicts the lesson lost on most in the Republican foreign policy establishment who believe we need American soldiers left precariously and indefinitely on the ground in tribal civil wars in order to keep us safe.

When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts.

You stand outside from a position of strength, define your interests, and zap any one of the adversaries that comes out of the tank and inside your zone of interest.

As to Horowitz's reference to Iran and our (inadvertent) role in helping them ... here's his bottom line.  Let me know if you disagree with this.

Quote
But nobody has explained how, since we fought the Sunni insurgency, we were not the ones who empowered Iranian hegemony in the region for free. With our troops out of the region, Russia and Iran would have to face the Sunni (ISIS) backlash without us keeping it in check for them.



Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 10:24:29 AM

I wish you'd stop spamming threads with post after post of excerpts @TomSea   They break up discussion and prevent debate.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: kevindavis on October 12, 2019, 11:22:48 AM
Well, either way, we will be fighitng ISIS either in the Middle East, Europe, or here. I prefer that we fight them in the Middle East.
Title: Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 11:35:08 AM
Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
American Thinker, Oct 12, 2019, Lt. Col. Robert L. Maginnis, US Army Ret.

[...]

President Trump has answered these critics.  The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group.  Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.

The Kurds’ problem, and by association that of the U.S., is that regional powers like Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran and Syria have long held the Kurds in disdain.  In fact, Turkey considers the Syrian Kurds to be allies of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or (PKK), which are Turkish Kurds and terrorists fighting for independence for the last 35 years.   

Basically, the Kurds hijacked our fight with ISIS to feed their regional civil war to earn independence.

[...]

The pregnant question that Trump’s critics don’t answer is: Will ISIS return to fight another day?  Not necessarily.  Keep in mind that al Qaeda and ISIS are in many more places today than when U.S. forces first pursued them in the mountains of Afghanistan and in the northern plains of Iraq.  Also, what remains of ISIS is trapped in a small area in Syria and if they make a ruckus that can be easily handled by Turkish and Russian airstrikes, and they won’t bother with concerns about collateral damage.



Read more:  https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html)


Lt. Col. Bob Maginnis graduated from the U.S. Military Academy and is an instructor at the Army War College. He oversees a team of national security experts in the Pentagon and has more than 800 published articles on national security and geopolitical issues. His most recent books are Progressive Evil (2019), and Alliance of Evil (2018).
Title: Re: Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 11:37:12 AM
FTA

Quote
Trump’s critics can learn about Middle Eastern culture by watching Lawrence of Arabia.  Remember the first time that Lawrence goes into the desert his guide stops at some oasis.  As the guide drinks from the well, a dark figure on a camel rides fast towards them and then shoots dead Lawrence’s guide. Lawrence is stunned and asks why the Arab killed the guide.  The Arab responds, “He is Hazzami. He is nothing.  He knew that he could not drink from our well.” 
Title: Re: Missing the Bigger Picture in Kurdish Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 11:40:36 AM
Interesting comments at the end of the article ..

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria_comments.html#comments-container (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria_comments.html#comments-container)
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 11:44:04 AM
Well, either way, we will be fighitng ISIS either in the Middle East, Europe, or here.

Not if we stand aside and let Iran and Russia play whack a Sunni for a while.  Why we're helping Russia and Iran save treasure and blood is a question no one dares ask, never mind answer @kevindavis



Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 12:09:09 PM
Complete Bull Sh*t. Ask the Armenians in Turkey, oh wait

Under Erdoğan the once secular Turkey is becoming a (radical) Islamic state. Screw Turkey, boot them out of NATO.

Okay, I was just thanking them for participating, but consider this and I am for the SDF I will say but to ignore what the whole scenario is, is not helpful.

And I learned really some of this from RIV's questioning and I've seen it some in other places as well and I am grateful for their input:

Quote

The 30-year armed conflict between Turkey and the PKK
-- which the United States and the European Union also have designated a terrorist organization -- has claimed an estimated 40,000 lives. A two-year ceasefire ended in July when a suicide bomb ripped through a group of activists in the southeastern town of Suruc as they were preparing to deliver aid to the Syrian town of Kobani.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/national/turks-military-has-killed-68-pkk-terrorists (https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/national/turks-military-has-killed-68-pkk-terrorists)

I won't make analogies nor anything like that to complicate the matter, the above pretty well speaks for itself and the PKK/YPG (people's protection units) were signatories to the founding of the SDF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Democratic_Forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Democratic_Forces)

Now, as Chas. Lister said, the guy I quoted, this has been a ticking time bomb, maybe the PKK doesn't deserve their terror designation but as of now, these are just the facts of the matter.

We wouldn't take kindly to some group in Canada or Mexico, involved in a conflict with the USA that had killed 40,000 people.

Just getting all of the facts up.

I still say we should protect the SDF, no-fly zone or something but this does appear to be a more complex matter than the Turks just riding in wearing black hats.
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 12:25:11 PM
Quote
Kurdish party leader 'killed in Turkish ambush' in Syria
The New Arab

(https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/file/getimagecustom/54075cf1-5c94-4f6a-9b73-334997a1bad9/850/479)
The secretary-general of the Future Syria Party, Hevrin Khalaf was reportedly killed on the road to the city of Qamishli, reports said on Saturday.

A senior Kurdish politician and party leader was killed during an intense Turkish military offensive against Kurdish fighters in Syria, local news reported on Saturday.

Hevrin Khalaf, the secretary-general of the Future Syria Party, was killed during an ambush by Turkish-backed groups during an attempt to capture a point on the international M4 road, Kurdistan 24 reported.

Read more at: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/12/kurdish-party-leader-killed-in-turkish-ambush-in-syria (https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/12/kurdish-party-leader-killed-in-turkish-ambush-in-syria)

Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 12, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
I would like for someone to explain to me how/why there are so many Muslim women who are powerful and prominent politicians. This seems to run contrary to what I have been lead to belief are the basic beliefs of Islam.
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: kevindavis on October 12, 2019, 12:54:53 PM
Not if we stand aside and let Iran and Russia play whack a Sunni for a while.  Why we're helping Russia and Iran save treasure and blood is a question no one dares ask, never mind answer @kevindavis


Were are helping Russia and Iran by increasing their presence in the Middle East? They are not going to be fighitng ISIS or the Sunni, they are going to help the butcher of Damascus.
Title: Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
Post by: mystery-ak on October 12, 2019, 02:00:08 PM
Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
By Marty Johnson - 10/12/19 01:38 PM EDT

The commander of U.S.-backed Syrian Kurdish forces reportedly told an American diplomat on Thursday that the United States is "leaving us to be slaughtered," days after President Trump withdrew troops from northern Syria.

CNN reported Saturday that Gen. Mazloum Kobani Abdi told William Roebuck, deputy special envoy to the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS, that "You have given up on us. You are leaving us to be slaughtered."

Kobani is the head of Kurdish forces known as the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), who have been vital allies to U.S. in the war on terror and fight against the Islamic State, or ISIS.


"You are not willing to protect the people, but you do not want another force to come and protect us," Kobani told the U.S. envoy, according to CNN, which obtained an internal readout of the meeting.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/army/465533-syrian-kurds-commander-to-us-commander-you-are-leaving-us-to-be
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 02:46:39 PM
Horrible, Videos of Turk side, their allies executing SDF soldiers.

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183069837221941248

Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
Horrible videos emerging from NE #Syria today of #Turkey proxies field-executing SDF fighters.

You can hear one saying “another pig gone.” Warning, this is a graphic thread of videos:

Dirtiest war in my lifetime, actually, that's pretty hard to say really, almost all wars have had their atrocities but this has been something else...

Mainly because Fundamental Islam is Hateful.

Brian May, guitarist for Queen was talking about the bombing at the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester England, and he was just stressing how these people were full of hate,

And our soldiers die, green on blue, really.

At first, when I heard about this stuff 5 years ago, my thought was really, hell, get the Christians out of there.

It's a delicate situation, in the heat of the moment, heck yeah, I'd feel like sending our bombers on to them.

Erdogan is scheduled to come to US on Nov. 12th, I can't see that happening, I'd like Turkey to be our friend, it was making progress in the past.
Title: Turkey vs. The Kurds
Post by: Elderberry on October 12, 2019, 02:51:33 PM
Lawrence Person's BattleSwarm Blog 10/12/2019

Following the withdraw of a small number of U.S. troops in the area (I’ve seen estimates range from 25 to 100), Turkey has launched it’s threatened offensive against Kurdish held Syrian territory along the border (which seems to bear the Orwellian name “Peace Spring Operation“). Lots of airstrikes and shelling, but so far actual ground forces seem to be primarily Turkish-backed Syrian National Army (AKA The Army Formerly Know As The Turkish-Backed Free Syrian Army, which is different than the previous Free Syrian Army, which revolted against Assad) supported by small units of Turkish armor, plus artillery and air power. They’ve thus far made five modest incursions from Tell Abyad (AKA Tall Abiad and half a dozen other variations) to Ras al-Ayn. Thus far they haven’t exceeded the 20 mile buffer zone, and the deepest incursion seems to be about 12 miles in toward the Syrian M4 road.

The president at least has a cogent position that is consistent with the Constitution and public opinion. He wants U.S. forces out of a conflict in which America’s interests have never been clear, and for which Congress has never approved military intervention. I find that sensible — no surprise, given that I have opposed intervention in Syria from the start…The stridency of the counterarguments is matched only by their selectiveness in reciting relevant facts.

I thus respectfully dissent from our National Review editorial.

President Trump, it says, is “making a serious mistake” by moving our forces away from what is described as “Kurdish territory”; the resulting invasion by superior Turkish forces will “kill American allies” while “carving out a zone of dominance” that will serve further to “inflame and complicate” the region.

Where to begin? Perhaps with the basic fact that there is no Kurdish territory. There is Syrian territory on Turkey’s border that the Kurds are occupying — a situation that itself serves to “inflame and complicate” the region for reasons I shall come to. Ethnic Kurds do not have a state. They live in contiguous parts of Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Most are integrated into these countries, but many are separatists.

More: https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=42207 (https://www.battleswarmblog.com/?p=42207)
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 03:00:24 PM
Drudge Report

ISIS REVIVAL

Linked article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7566157/Turkish-military-incursion-Syria-giving-jihadists-chance-regroup.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7566157/Turkish-military-incursion-Syria-giving-jihadists-chance-regroup.html)

Again, post #1 now has a selection of twitter accounts by mostly very relevant reporters, especially:

Joyce Karam: https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam (https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam)

Wladimir: https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg)

Charles Lister: https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister (https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister)

So, it sounds like the videos have been called authentic, let's see. I'm sure they are, we always need to be sure.
Title: Pro-Turkey forces ‘execute’ nine civilians in Syria: Monitor
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 03:28:07 PM
Graphic Footage At Link, Warning:

Quote
Pro-Turkey forces ‘execute’ nine civilians in Syria: Monitor

Pro-Ankara fighters taking part in a Turkish offensive on Kurdish-held border towns in northeastern Syria “executed” at least nine civilians on Saturday, a monitor said.

“The nine civilians were executed at different moments south of the town of Tal Abyad,” the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

The Kurds said a female Kurdish party official and her driver were among those killed.

Hevrin Khalaf was “taken out of her car during a Turkish-backed attack and executed by Turkish-backed mercenary factions,” the political arm of the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said in a statement.

Read more at: https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2019/10/12/Pro-Turkey-forces-execute-nine-civilians-in-syria-monitor-.html
Title: Re: Turkey vs. The Kurds
Post by: kevindavis on October 12, 2019, 05:31:35 PM
I saw the Kurds might be asking Russia for help. So more Russian interence in that region. So much spending most of the cold war kicking those bastards out.
Title: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 12, 2019, 05:36:32 PM
Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
By John Bowden - 10/12/19 05:15 PM EDT

Former Defense Secretary James Mattis said in a new interview that ISIS will become stronger in northern Syria and Iraq if U.S.-aligned forces do not maintain pressure in the region.

In an interview airing Sunday on "Meet the Press," Mattis warned that the region was in "disarray" due to the invasion of Turkish forces and withdrawal of U.S. troops, which he warned would benefit ISIS forces thought to be hiding in the region as well as those already detained in prison camps.

"It’s in a situation of disarray right now," Mattis said of the northern Syria region currently besieged by Turkish forces. "Obviously, the Kurds are adapting to the Turkish attacks. And we'll have to see if they're able to maintain the fight against ISIS. It's going to have an impact. The question is, how much?"

more
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465541-mattis-warns-isis-will-resurge-without-us-pressure-on-syria
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: DB on October 12, 2019, 05:50:14 PM
Disarray SOP for this administration.
Title: Re: Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 05:50:43 PM
Quote
The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group. 

Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.

The Kurds’ problem, and by association that of the U.S., is that regional powers like Turkey and to a lesser extent Iran and Syria have long held the Kurds in disdain.  In fact, Turkey considers the Syrian Kurds to be allies of the Kurdistan Workers' Party or (PKK), which are Turkish Kurds and terrorists fighting for independence for the last 35 years.   

Basically, the Kurds hijacked our fight with ISIS to feed their regional civil war to earn independence.


--- Lt. Col. Robert L. Maginnis, US Army Ret., Oct. 12, 2019


https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html (https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html)






Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 06:01:40 PM
Disarray SOP for this administration. 

Nope.  This administration is getting it right.

Quote
President Trump is well on his way to learning the lesson of not diving head-first into the cesspool.

As I’ve noted many times, there is simply no reason for us to have a ground presence in Syria at this point. That is a position I’ve maintained since the beginning of the civil war, regardless of who was president.

The tangled web of alliances and enemies is dizzying just to articulate. There is the Sunni insurgency, representing the Sunni tribes in the east, that is constantly fighting the Shiite powers backing the Assad regime. Assad himself has outside help from Iran and Hezbollah, all supported by Russia, which makes the Sunnis resent Assad even more. Putin himself only backs Assad for his own strategic reasons and is not necessarily happy about the Iranian presence there.

Thus, in order to effectively advocate for intervention there, one needs to craft an ever-elusive solution to deal with all of the differently interested powers in the region. But people like Lindsey Graham who want our soldiers engaged in Syria don’t have a plan.

The same people who demanded we be the ones to fight ISIS (the Sunni insurgency in its most recent, but certainly not final, iteration) are the ones who also complain about Iran and Assad.    ---  But nobody has explained how, since we fought the Sunni insurgency, we were not the ones who empowered Iranian hegemony in the region for free.  With our troops out of the region, Russia and Iran would have to face the Sunni backlash without us keeping it in check for them.


--- Daniel Horowitz. Oct 10, 2019



https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/ (https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/) 



Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: DB on October 12, 2019, 06:09:16 PM
Nope.  This administration is getting it right.

LOL...
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: Absalom on October 12, 2019, 06:27:33 PM
Since 1945, our foreign affairs have been riddled w/error in execution and judgement.
In my opinion, this is largely attributable to the people at Defense and State.
When the Pentagon is mentioned, far too many think of an Officer w/a chest of medals.
Hardly, as these DC Offices are infested by bureaucrats w/the mindset of self-preservation.
Add to that the political assholery who fill Congress and the WH and our performance
should have been predictable.
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: musiclady on October 12, 2019, 06:50:19 PM
Disarray SOP for this administration.

Trump thrives on chaos.
Title: Re: Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
Post by: musiclady on October 12, 2019, 06:51:56 PM
And ISIS to be freed, and Christians to be slaughtered as well.............  **nononono*
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 07:42:54 PM
Trump thrives on chaos. 

Actually, no, the President does not.  As any successful businessman quickly learns, "chaos" is the enemy.

The President is changing our strategy in the Middle East, leaving behind the real chaos of that quicksand and replacing it with a cogent strategy putting our interests first, including our fighting men and women.

Here's a pretty good description of the Middle East and what this new strategy is all about:

Quote
A simple analogy vividly depicts the lesson lost on most in the Republican foreign policy establishment who believe we need American soldiers left precariously and indefinitely on the ground in tribal civil wars in order to keep us safe. When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts.

You stand outside from a position of strength, define your interests, and zap any one of the adversaries that comes out of the tank and inside your zone of interest.

President Trump is well on his way to learning the lesson of not diving head-first into the cesspool. He should follow up with strong action to protect our interests, using the right soft power tools to deter our enemies. That will go a long way toward framing his move out of Syria as a more effective means of deterring a complex web of multiple enemies – often at war with each other – and putting our interests first.

--- Daniel Horowitz, Oct 10, 2019

Read more from Mr. Horowitz:  https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/ (https://www.conservativereview.com/news/trump-actually-right-syria-now-lets-follow/)



Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: montanajoe on October 12, 2019, 07:59:46 PM
Lets see who to listen to a tough marine General or a POS draft dodger with bone spurs....  :whistle:


Geez... :shrug:


Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 08:38:35 PM
Lets see who to listen to a tough marine General or a POS draft dodger with bone spurs....  :whistle:


Geez... :shrug:

Great to see you posting in world news, I'm not sure when the last time I saw you post here, I'm glad you have such compassion for the Kurds to show up.   
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: Fishrrman on October 12, 2019, 09:02:07 PM
RinVa posted (quote from Daniel Horowitz):
" When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts. "

Fishrrman's solution:
1. Kill every killer whale, shark, snake and scorpion IN "the cesspool".
2. Drain the cesspool
3. Burn the carcasses.

Problems... solved.
Easy.... eh....?
Title: Re: Trump is actually right about Syria. Now let’s follow up
Post by: Fishrrman on October 12, 2019, 09:08:26 PM
Are "the Kurds" muslim?
If so.... sorry.

There aren't ANY muslims ANYWHERE that can be considered "our friends".
If you haven't come to understand this in the years since the World Trade Center, you will never understand.

As for Christians living in these countries, the only way to "protect" them is to GET THEM OUT OF THERE.
Again, after WTC, it ought to be apparent to anyone who can reason that Christians are a marked people in islamic lands. As in, "marked for extinction". Even Stevie Wonder could see this reality.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 10:12:45 PM
Ragip use to work for one of Turkey's major news websites in their DC Bureau, he usually would follow the Turkish line, always but he still seems to be a man with integrity and mild mannered, now, he's moved on to Middle Eastern Eye. A decent man seemingly, while at the same time, in the past, having to represent a oppressive regime. One of his latest tweets:
Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
Syrian National Army says fighters who commit war crimes under their command will be brought to justice.

Let’s hope the videotaped individuals today, allegedly members of Ahrar al Sharqiya, will be swiftly dealt with for killing unarmed prisoners on M4 highway

See image at tweet

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183134134627164161

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
NEW — UK cannot support Turkey’s military action in Syria, UK PM Johnson told Erdogan in a phone call tonight.

He urged Erdogan to end the operation and enter into dialogue, expressed concern over the humanitarian situation and progress made against ISIS

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183124916658429952

Yes, I can hear the question, "well, if he's decent, how can he be doing what he's doing?", Good question.
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 12, 2019, 10:27:38 PM
RinVa posted (quote from Daniel Horowitz):
" When there are killer whales, sharks, snakes, and scorpions in a cesspool fighting each other, you don’t dive head-first into the tank to try to fight one of those dangers without understanding how you will survive the others or avoid tipping the balance of power to the other beasts. "

Fishrrman's solution:
1. Kill every killer whale, shark, snake and scorpion IN "the cesspool".
2. Drain the cesspool
3. Burn the carcasses.

Problems... solved.
Easy.... eh....? 

Sure.  All we need to do is convince the military-industrial complex to win a war and end it.   :smokin:
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: musiclady on October 12, 2019, 10:33:22 PM
Lets see who to listen to a tough marine General or a POS draft dodger with bone spurs....  :whistle:


Geez... :shrug:

Not a real hard decision, is it??

(Don't forget that he said his war during Viet Nam was not getting any STD's).
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 10:44:03 PM
Mattis or Bolton or McMasters, he was on Cspan the other day, right, he was Secretary of Def or State, I forget which or was it National Security Advisor, anyway, stead hand.  McMasters sounded very good.  Rex, pretty steady too, in fact, Pompeo is fine but he's not running the show enough I think.

(https://49yzp92imhtx8radn224z7y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/ltgenmcmaster.jpg)

It's interesting, that "you can't always get what you want" is played at rallies.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2019, 10:54:26 PM
How nutty is this? Check this out (an apparent Voice of America VOA reporter):
Quote
Steve Herman
@W7VOA
Today @POTUS
 released $50 million in stabilization assistance for #Syria "to protect persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, and advance human rights," according to @PressSec


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGt6__OWwAAoiYv?format=jpg&name=small)
.
https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1183174570527854592

The gesture itself is good, I'm just kind of perplexed!

Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: montanajoe on October 13, 2019, 12:46:55 AM
As I've mentioned I have spent a lot of time outside of the US since my senior trip, and the change of America's perception and standing by the rest of world is astounding.

Between Korea and Vietnam...e.g.the baby boom generation, the country had enough  folks born in that demographic, to lose sight of the fact that the freedom they had to refuse service in war was given to them by the dead warriors proceeding them.

This fact was not lost on our enemies and the term paper tiger came to describe the US throughout the world. Vietnam validated that claim. We showed the world that 50,000 lives meant nothing and when we wore our uniforms we were spit on when we  got back...(although I suspect most like me didn't take kindly to that..)

To me it's not only the Kurds, but every group we promised support for the last 50 years, and then to have our politicians on both sides have cut their throats, as well as cutting the throats of our kids heritage and our nation.

I've watched much of American politics from outside the country through the years and I'm damn proud to be an American wherever I am. Being an old Montana boy and hunter since I can remember I look at the US today as either the wolves surrounding the sheep in the dead of winter and picking their next lunch or a country of sheep willingly going up the slaughter chute.

Neither scenario will play out, in my opinion, if we maintain  and straighten our military but to do that the folks in this Country can't listen to there favorite  political echo chamber and the latest explanation of what was actually meant.

It's time to grow up, to think for ones selves and  recognize our county is in deadly peril by a multitude of foreign enemies.... :shrug:
Title: Re: Mattis warns 'ISIS will resurge' without U.S. pressure on Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 02:40:54 AM
(https://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.397582.1457119876!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_900/image.jpg)

Better bone spurs than burn pits.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 02:56:28 AM
Okay, I wanted to allow Syrian threads to stay separate for a few days but there was a request to "group" them together, so we do have a merge. I will try to figure out how the best way to deal with this is. There were about 12 different threads and most of them were on the board for a while. They will not be merged until they have a bit of time on the board singularly.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 03:30:13 AM
Quote
U.S. forces say Turkey was deliberately ‘bracketing’ American troops with artillery fire in Syria

(https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/XndoIWBMiaZeLsOlIOrhtKsHcR0=/1440x0/smart/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/73D4QTHNB4I6TIZJON4PX6Q3MM.jpg)
This picture taken Saturday near the Syrian border town of Kobane shows a U.S. observation post where the Pentagon said U.S. troops came under Turkish artillery fire on Friday. (Ozan Kose/Afp Via Getty Images)

By   Dan Lamothe
October 12, 2019 at 6:07 PM EDT

Turkish forces who launched multiple artillery rounds near a U.S. Special Operations outpost in northeastern Syria on Friday have known for months that Americans were there, according to four current and former U.S. officials, raising questions whether Turkey is trying to push American troops farther from the border.

The incident occurred on a hilltop base overlooking the town of Kobane as Turkey continues an operation launched Wednesday against Syrian Kurds, some of whom the United States has partnered with for years in its campaign against the Islamic State. The incursion has focused on an area 60 miles to the west of Kobane, but U.S. officials believe Turkey has long-term aspirations to control a much larger swath of Syria.

The rounds landed about 9 p.m. within a few hundred yards of the base on Mistenur Hill, U.S. officials said. Navy Capt. Brook DeWalt, a Pentagon spokesman, said in a statement that the U.S. troops “came under artillery fire” but were unharmed and that there was an explosion.

Read more at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/10/12/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-forces-with-artillery-fire-syria/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/10/12/us-forces-say-turkey-was-deliberately-bracketing-american-forces-with-artillery-fire-syria/)

So, the "50" Green Berets were moved off the border, I believe I saw that somewhere, I know someone said that but even if they were just soldiers, if the Turks fired at this installation, I wonder what the safety of the "50" would have been.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 03:41:24 AM
Quote
Julie Lenarz
@MsJulieLenarz
This happened almost precisely 3 years ago: Kurdish forces raised the US flag in Tal Abyad, while US soldiers were threatened by Turkish-backed rebels.

The President @realDonaldTrump
 could learn something about honour and loyalty from these fine men and women.


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGq_aNYXUAA8Zsi?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/MsJulieLenarz/status/1182968317222502400

I understand the importance of oil and perhaps, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is important to secure but still, we are not only sending 1800 (or 2000 or my gosh, I heard one report of 3000) soldiers but planes too. Maybe it is important strategically but we also have our Kurdish allies... and what for them?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 04:12:11 AM
"Should "prioritize" protecting their own borders"??? I don't like the way that sounds at all. I don't see why he couldn't see defeating ISIS as something of a victory but a victory to expand on more, for the goodwill of the USA in the world. I don't like the way that sounds at all!!! If you want "America to be great", sheesh, how great that would be for our image???  I do see though, how this smacks of the argument of "we protect other people's borders, why not our own?" I do get that.

Quote
In campaign stop with evangelical Christians, Trump defends his actions on Syria
Jan Wolfe

(Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Saturday defended his decision to withdraw troops from northeastern Syria, telling conservative Christian activists that the United States should prioritize protecting its own borders.

(https://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20191013&t=2&i=1440222614&r=LYNXMPEF9C022&w=1280)
U.S. President Donald Trump prays between Tony Perkins, President of the Family Research Council, and Pastor Andrew Brunson (R) at the Family Research Council's annual gala in Washington, U.S., October 12, 2019. REUTERS/Yuri Gripas

“Let them have their borders, but I don’t think our soldiers should be there for the next 50 years guarding a border between Turkey and Syria when we can’t guard our own borders at home,” Trump said in a speech to the Value Voters Summit in Washington, an annual conference of religious conservatives.

Trump was elected in 2016 running on a hard-line immigration policy and has sought to make legal and illegal immigration to the United States more difficult during his more than two years in office, pushing for a wall to be built on the U.S.-Mexico border among other measures.

After a phone call between Trump and Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan last Sunday, Trump made an abrupt policy change and ordered out U.S. forces in northeast Syria who had been fighting with Kurdish YPG militia against Islamic State. Within days Turkey began an offensive against the YPG, which it says is a terrorist group backing Kurdish rebels in Turkey.

Read more at: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-religion-idUSKBN1WS014 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-religion-idUSKBN1WS014)

I get the well-worn argument, people have even said similar here but we should just yank out support and it's certainly a FALSEHOOD to say something like ISIS is "100% percent defeated" which he has said, that's a lie. I can see some points such as people should pull their own weight more.

The Senate needs to get in on this, pass a bill so the Senate can decide this, implement actions if possible. McConnell said the Senate has a super-majority to do some things.

In essence though, there is some truth in saying, "well, illegals kill here in the USA, why aren't we more concerned with that?", That's a valid point but the way this was said, comes out kind of shabby.  I mean, then be Christian...

So, now, the "Rebels" deny they did this?
Quote
World News
October 12, 2019 / 1:02 PM / Updated 11 hours ago
SDF says Turkey-backed rebels killed Kurdish politician, rebels deny it

BEIRUT (Reuters) - The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces accused Turkey-backed fighters of killing a Kurdish politician in an ambush on a road in northern Syria on Saturday, drawing a denial from a Turkey-backed rebel force which said it had not advanced that far.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based organization which reports on the war, said Turkey-backed groups had killed a total of nine civilians on the road, including Hervin Khalaf, secretary general of the Future Syria Party.

Khalaf had been returning from a meeting in Hasaka at the time of the attack in which her driver and an aide were also killed, said Hussein Omar, the Future Syria Party’s coordinator in Europe. Party officials including Khalaf have had contacts with U.S. officials since it was founded in 2018, he said.

Read more at: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-killing-idUSKBN1WR0JM (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-killing-idUSKBN1WR0JM)

We sure are caring about the Saudi Arabian borders? They probably can at that, fess up some money for that but still.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 04:19:04 AM
What's the bloody point of defeating ISIS if you are going to let them grow again?

That said, maybe the Europeans could heed this to do more if they are so concerned, it shouldn't just be us carrying this load.

Yes, I've been proud, we along with others in the whole coalition beat ISIS back and we probably have done most of the heavy lifting.

Still, as discussed in the forum, we were almost or we did "green light" the invasion, that's troubling, whole situation sucks. Idiotic.

I don't get the whole narrative and some dispute the narrative.
Title: Re: Syrian Kurds commander to US: 'You are leaving us to be slaughtered'
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 13, 2019, 07:09:12 AM

Everyone forgets this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL)

Quote
The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, calling itself Islamic State) is recognized by the United Nations as the perpetrator of a genocide of Yazidis in Iraq.[1][10][11] The genocide led to the expulsion, flight and effective exile of the Yazidis from their ancestral lands in Northern Iraq whose women and girls were forced into sexual slavery by the Islamic State and whose men were killed by the thousands.[12] The genocide led to the abduction of Yazidi women and massacres that killed five thousand Yazidi civilians[4][13] during what has been called a "forced conversion campaign"[14][15] being carried out in Northern Iraq by ISIL, starting in 2014. The genocide happened following the Kurdish Peshmerga withdrawal, which left the Yazidis defenseless.[16][17]

ISIL's persecution of the Yazidis gained international attention and led to the American-led intervention in Iraq, which started with United States airstrikes against ISIL. Additionally, the US, UK, and Australia made emergency airdrops to Yazidis who had fled to a mountain range. YPG and PKK fighters opened a humanitarian corridor to the Sinjar Mountains and helped the Yazidis.[18]

It isn't just about land, it's about survival, when it comes to the Kurds vs the Islamic State. Recall, the Kurds are made up of Muslims, Sunni and Shiia, but also a variety of other religions, from Christian to Zoroastrian. The ISIS/ISIL/IS crowd won't tolerate anything but their own flavor of Islam.

I am all for prioritizing protecting our own borders, too, and would love to see that done.

Should we have been involved in Syria in the first place? How about letting Assad handle this, suits me just fine, and should have been the policy from the start. The Turks have just complicated things, however, and frankly aren't fighting for/on Turkish soil at this point. This is an invasion, the 35 mile buffer zone is on Syrian soil, not Turkish, and that happens to be where these Kurds live..
Title: Re: Turkey set to invade Syria; US to remove forces from area
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 09:18:54 AM
Quote
There is a website on Syrian news called "Syria Call" but I generally post nothing from there because the stories to most of us, don't look viable. But I know some of what they've posted has been true. So, they are worth checking out some but there is just so much information out there that we can't trust. Or there is a lot of "disinformation" out there.

@TomSea

A wise man once noted that "Truth is the first victim of any war".
Title: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 09:32:48 AM
Hundreds of foreigners affiliated with the Islamic State group (IS) have escaped from a camp in northern Syria amid a Turkish offensive, Kurdish officials say.

They say detainees attacked gates at the Ain Issa displacement camp as fighting raged nearby.

Turkey launched an assault last week aimed at driving Kurdish-led forces from the region.

The UN says 130,000 people have fled their homes, and the figure may rise.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50029540 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50029540)


Unbelievable stupid bone headed decision by Trump to put the knife in the  back of our Kurd allies.
Title: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 10:08:17 AM
Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
By Zack Budryk - 10/13/19 08:49 AM EDT

Defense Secretary Mark Esper said Sunday that recent action by Turkish forces since their incursion into northern Syria “appears to be” a war crime.

“It appears to be,” Esper agreed on CBS’s “Face the Nation” Sunday when host Margaret Brennan described some of Turkey's conduct against Kurdish forces as a war crime, including footage appearing to show the summary execution of Kurdish captives.


“It’s a very terrible situation over there, a situation caused by the Turks. Despite our opposition, they decided to make this incursion,” Esper said.

more
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465564-esper-turkey-appears-to-be-committing-war-crimes-in-northern-syria
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: musiclady on October 13, 2019, 10:26:12 AM
What's the bloody point of defeating ISIS if you are going to let them grow again?

That said, maybe the Europeans could heed this to do more if they are so concerned, it shouldn't just be us carrying this load.

Yes, I've been proud, we along with others in the whole coalition beat ISIS back and we probably have done most of the heavy lifting.

Still, as discussed in the forum, we were almost or we did "green light" the invasion, that's troubling, whole situation sucks. Idiotic.

I don't get the whole narrative and some dispute the narrative.

Agree. 

While Europe should have been carrying part of the load, ISIS is a direct threat to us as well.

And releasing the monsters, deliberately or inadvertently, is downright dangerous................ and not just to the Kurds and Europeans.

Giving the green light to slaughter the Kurds........ if that's what was in fact done...... is unforgivable.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 10:29:02 AM
Agree. 

While Europe should have been carrying part of the load, ISIS is a direct threat to us as well.

And releasing the monsters, deliberately or inadvertently, is downright dangerous................ and not just to the Kurds and Europeans.

Giving the green light to slaughter the Kurds........ if that's what was in fact done...... is unforgivable.


Also, ISIS can get into this country without crossing the southern border.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 13, 2019, 10:47:24 AM
There should never have been 10,000 ISIS prisoners to begin with.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 10:56:43 AM

Everyone supporting President Trump on this should click on the link below


https://twitter.com/i/status/1183040900181774337 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1183040900181774337)

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 11:08:40 AM
Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump 

Very smart not to be involved in the intense fighting along the Turkish Border, for a change. Those that mistakenly got us into the Middle East Wars are still pushing to fight. They have no idea what a bad decision they have made. Why are they not asking for a Declaration of War?

5:57 AM - 13 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183366057169444864
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 11:11:03 AM
Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump 

Do you remember two years ago when Iraq was going to fight the Kurds in a different part of Syria. Many people wanted us to fight with the Kurds against Iraq, who we just fought for. I said no, and the Kurds left the fight, twice. Now the same thing is happening with Turkey......

.....The Kurds and Turkey have been fighting for many years. Turkey considers the PKK the worst terrorists of all. Others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. Let them! We are monitoring the situation closely. Endless Wars!

6:09 AM - 13 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183369133301391365

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 11:12:58 AM
Quote
Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump 

Dealing with @LindseyGrahamSC and many members of Congress, including Democrats, about imposing powerful Sanctions on Turkey. Treasury is ready to go, additional legislation may be sought. There is great consensus on this. Turkey has asked that it not be done. Stay tuned!

6:37 AM - 13 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183376270731763714
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 11:14:30 AM
Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump 

Dealing with @LindseyGrahamSC and many members of Congress, including Democrats, about imposing powerful Sanctions on Turkey. Treasury is ready to go, additional legislation may be sought. There is great consensus on this. Turkey has asked that it not be done. Stay tuned!

6:37 AM - 13 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183376270731763714
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 11:21:38 AM
Everyone supporting President Trump on this should click on the link below


https://twitter.com/i/status/1183040900181774337 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1183040900181774337)

That dead kid keeps blinking his eyes.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 11:23:03 AM
GOP congressman: 'We all know' Turkey wouldn't have attacked if U.S. troops remained at border
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465576-gop-congressman-we-all-know-turkey-wouldnt-have-attacked-if-us
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 11:25:35 AM
Senate Democrat on Turkey sanctions: 'For God's sake, what are they waiting for?'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465567-democratic-senator-on-turkey-sanctions-for-gods-sake-what-are-they
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 11:25:36 AM
How nutty is this? Check this out (an apparent Voice of America VOA reporter):
The gesture itself is good, I'm just kind of perplexed!

Maybe the Turks could buy back some American troops from Saudi Arabia.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,379050.0.html (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,379050.0.html)
Trump brags he’s renting out U.S. military to Saudi Arabia: “They’re paying us for everything!”
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 11:26:22 AM
There should never have been 10,000 ISIS prisoners to begin with.

Why are we even taking prisoners?  ISIS doesn't.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 11:31:36 AM
The goal of the separate Kurdish tribes is to unite and carve out a new country Kurdistan.  Unsurprisingly, none of these countries want to “donate” territory to a new Kurdistan, thus the conflict. 

Unless we are going to take on Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey to create a country of Kurdistan, we have no reason to be there.


(https://flashtrafficblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/kurdistan-map.gif?w=550)






Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 11:40:50 AM
Dan Crenshaw @DanCrenshawTX
23h
Situation when we were there: relative peace.

We leave:
-Turkey attacks our Kurdish allies -shoots artillery at US troops
-bombs a prison where ISIS fighters already escaped.
-ISIS car bomb in Qamishli.

That’s just day one.

Which scenario looks more like an endless war?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 11:43:04 AM
The goal of the separate Kurdish tribes is to unite and carve out a new country Kurdistan.  Unsurprisingly, none of these countries want to “donate” territory to a new Kurdistan, thus the conflict. 

Unless we are going to take on Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey to create a country of Kurdistan, we have no reason to be there.


(https://flashtrafficblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/kurdistan-map.gif?w=550)

Sounds a lot like the so-called "Palestinians."
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 13, 2019, 11:45:33 AM
Ya know congress does have the power to declare war if they really wanted it...
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 11:46:51 AM
Ya know congress does have the power to declare war if they really wanted it...

Against a NATO Ally?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
Sky News Breaking @SkyNewsBreak

5h
News agency Reuters reports the Kurdish-led administration in northern Syria says 785 people affiliated with I.S. have escaped the Ain Issa camp following shelling by Turkey
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 12:05:21 PM
Esper confirms Trump ordered larger withdrawal of U.S. forces from Syria
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465584-esper-confirms-trump-ordered-larger-withdrawal-of-us-forces-from
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 12:27:27 PM
GOP congressman: 'We all know' Turkey wouldn't have attacked if U.S. troops remained at border
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465576-gop-congressman-we-all-know-turkey-wouldnt-have-attacked-if-us

Exactly right, Trump betrayed the Kurds in Syria. Who would ever trust us again.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 13, 2019, 12:58:56 PM
Why are we even taking prisoners?  ISIS doesn't.

That is exactly my point.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 13, 2019, 01:02:14 PM
Against a NATO Ally?

I don't know if it would have to be an actual declaration of war. What about a police action? We don't seem to be willing to wage an actual war anymore. Police actions, yeah.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 01:04:27 PM
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/10/10/kurds-may-be-wiped-out-before-turkey-sanctions-happen-senators-worry/ (https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/10/10/kurds-may-be-wiped-out-before-turkey-sanctions-happen-senators-worry/)

Kurds may be wiped out before Turkey sanctions happen, senators worry

Quote
WASHINGTON ― Senators critical of President Donald Trump’s sudden military withdrawal from Syria are prepping a legislative response to the Turkish offensive there, but some colleagues worry America’s Kurdish partners may be dead by the time sanctions are imposed.

Sens. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., and Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., have proposed Congress’ most concrete legislative response to date to the unfolding crisis. Their bill includes sanctions on Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and a tougher stance against Ankara’s purchase of the Russian S-400 air defense system.

Graham, a Trump ally who has publicly broken with the administration over the president’s decision to yank U.S. troops from northern Syria, implored Trump on Thursday to sanction Turkey, reestablish safe zones to protect America’s Kurdish allies and “prevent the reemergence of ISIS before it’s too late,” using an acronym for the Islamic State group.

“Mr. President, your decision regarding Syria is having grave consequences to our national security and that of our allies and partners,” Graham said in a series of tweets. “Please change course while you still can.”

The sanctions, as proposed, would remain in place until the executive branch certifies to Congress that Turkey is not engaged in military activities in contested areas of Syria and that all Turkish and Turkish-partner fighters have been withdrawn from Syrian territories impacted by the Turkish military operation that began Wednesday.

more at link

This sure is a great distraction from the Trump impeachment.  blij26
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 01:12:18 PM
Why are we even taking prisoners?  ISIS doesn't.
An enemy that knows you do not take prisoners fights to the death.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 01:14:46 PM
An enemy that knows you do not take prisoners fights to the death.

I thought they already did that.  I do see your point, though.  But...last I heard ISIS executes all prisoners in ugly ways.  Am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 13, 2019, 01:36:15 PM
Against a NATO Ally?

We we have congress people bitching about Trumps decision as if they have no recourse of their own.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 01:39:39 PM
Donald J. Trump
Verified account @realDonaldTrump 

Do you remember two years ago when Iraq was going to fight the Kurds in a different part of Syria. Many people wanted us to fight with the Kurds against Iraq, who we just fought for. I said no, and the Kurds left the fight, twice. Now the same thing is happening with Turkey......

.....The Kurds and Turkey have been fighting for many years. Turkey considers the PKK the worst terrorists of all. Others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. Let them! We are monitoring the situation closely. Endless Wars!

6:09 AM - 13 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183369133301391365

Too little too late. Turkey will not stop their genocidal effort to wipe out the Kurds. Trump really stepped it this time.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
Going to get real ugly now that Syria is sending troops in that area.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 02:08:43 PM
Too little too late. Turkey will not stop their genocidal effort to wipe out the Kurds. Trump really stepped it this time.

Quote
twitter.com
Sotiri Dimpinoudis (sotiridi)
#Breaking: Just in - Unconfirmed reports says that the Syrian Arab Army #SAA will be sending more then 5.000 troops into #Manbij and #Kobani in #Syria to help thrive #Turkey and it's troops out of the country, and to stop the Turkish invasion into their country.
8:58 AM - 13 Oct 2019

So, SDF appears to have made a deal with the Assad regime.  Will we see a battle? Will Russia give airsupport to the Syrian army against Turkey? That seems it could happen.

https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1183432691141824514

I'm picking this up from here, also, at the above link, there is even a TV broadcast saying all of this.

Here:   https://twitter.com/sotiridi/status/1183429667036024835

At least, in Syria, there doesn't seem to be history at all or much of Christians being persecuted but the people have to keep in line with the regime and they have a large Sunni population.

I thought I might have seen some tweet that the Syrian, SAA, Syrian Army may already be there in Manbij and our troops have fled the North.

We just said we won't abandon the Kurds, now, it seems fairly clear, we will have to leave the country, I would think.... odd times.
Title: State Department: Reports of Kurdish politician, captured fighters being killed 'extremely troubling
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 02:11:45 PM
State Department: Reports of Kurdish politician, captured fighters being killed 'extremely troubling'
By Justine Coleman - 10/13/19 01:24 PM EDT

The State Department calling reports that a Kurdish politician and Kurdish fighters were killed during Turkey's offensive in northern Syria "extremely troubling."

A department spokesman told The Hill that officials have seen reports regarding the killings of Secretary General of the Future Syria Party Hervin Khalaf and Kurdish fighters.


“We find these reports to be extremely troubling, reflecting the overall destabilization of northeast Syria since the commencement of hostilities on Tuesday,” the spokesman said in an email.

“We condemn in the strongest of terms any mistreatment and extrajudicial execution of civilians or prisoners, and are looking further into these circumstances,” the spokesman added.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/465590-state-department-reports-of-kurdish-politician
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 02:24:12 PM
An enemy that knows you do not take prisoners fights to the death.

@Once-Ler

EXCELLENT! In that case it would mean there would be no prisoners to house,clothe,feed,give medical care to,and guard. Win/win.

BTW,what makes you so sure THEY  know we take prisoners?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 02:27:02 PM
Too little too late. Turkey will not stop their genocidal effort to wipe out the Kurds. Trump really stepped it this time.

@jpsb

HOW did Trump "Really step into it this time"? Is he,or the US their daddy? If not,WHY are WE responsible for the Kurds? Isn't there a big building in NYC called the UN that is supposed to take responsibility for situations like this?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 02:31:12 PM

Quote
At least, in Syria, there doesn't seem to be history at all or much of Christians being persecuted but the people have to keep in line with the regime and they have a large Sunni population.


@TomSea

The same could have been said for Iraq under Saddam Hussein. There were even Jewish Temples and Christian churches there,with Iraqui soldiers to guard them and the people who went to them to worship.

None of which stopped Boy Jorge from declaring war on Iraq to please his Saudi pimps.
Title: Re: State Department: Reports of Kurdish politician, captured fighters being killed 'extremely troub
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 02:32:11 PM
I was so looking toward to 2020 reelecting Trump and taking back the House, Trump as totally blown it in Syria
by betraying the Kurds.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 02:34:23 PM
Quote

YPG militia commit a massacre of civilians in the village north of Raqqa before withdrawing

  13 Oct, 2019 14:38    Syria
https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16318

This website tends to paint the YPG and the Assad regime and the Russians in very bad light.  I think, as I've said before, they are oriented towards the FSA, Free Syrian Army, rebels... but, I can't discount the Syria Call website altogether, a lot of their reporting is ahead of time and from what I can tell, their reporting is fairly accurate, take with a grain of salt. I'm just saying, if one is curious about that war over there, go to all sources.

If these guys have done any of this, well, you just say, they aren't holier than thou, no side is. They are sort of idealized, hard to say.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
Too little too late. Turkey will not stop their genocidal effort to wipe out the Kurds. Trump really stepped it this time.

There's one way for Turkey to stop fighting against the Kurds, but the Kurds won't give up their dream of taking part of Turkey for their own uses.   :shrug:

Not our battle. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 02:43:59 PM
There's one way for Turkey to stop fighting against the Kurds, but the Kurds won't give up their dream of taking part of Turkey for their own uses.   :shrug:

Not our battle.

Somebody made it our battle when we sent the first pair of boots into Syria (Obastard's regime?).  It's the "Pottery Barn rule." 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 02:45:53 PM
There's one way for Turkey to stop fighting against the Kurds, but the Kurds won't give up their dream of taking part of Turkey for their own uses.   :shrug:

Not our battle.


Yes it is.  I rather we fight ISIS in that area than here. Also, I prefer that we DON'T STAB ALLIES IN THE BACK!
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 03:18:11 PM
There's one way for Turkey to stop fighting against the Kurds, but the Kurds won't give up their dream of taking part of Turkey for their own uses.   :shrug:

Not our battle.

@Right_in_Virginia

Not our zoo,not our monkeys.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 03:26:42 PM
@Once-Ler

EXCELLENT! In that case it would mean there would be no prisoners to house,clothe,feed,give medical care to,and guard. Win/win.

BTW,what makes you so sure THEY  know we take prisoners?

I don't have an answer for that, but I did want let you know how much I admire your manly approval of shooting surrendering soldiers.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 03:34:34 PM
Since he likes to throw our allies under the bus, I wonder if he is going to stab the Baltic nations and Ukraine in the back.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: skeeter on October 13, 2019, 03:37:50 PM

Yes it is.  I rather we fight ISIS in that area than here.

I'm interested to know how this works - when we show up in the ME are jihadis involuntarily obligated to fight us? Does Immigration & Naturalization have a rule that prevents radical muslims from immigrating here as long as we have troops in their home country?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 03:40:50 PM
I'm interested to know how this works - when we show up in the ME are jihadis obligated to fight us? Does Immigration & Naturalization have a rule that prevents radical muslims from immigrating here as long as we have troops in their home country?


It keeps them occupied. The last time we listen to isolationists was in the 1930s and it didn't turn out to well.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: skeeter on October 13, 2019, 03:46:16 PM

It keeps them occupied. The last time we listen to isolationists was in the 1930s and it didn't turn out to well.

They aren't hamsters. The fact is that as long as our immigration system remains a free for all the 'fight them there or fight them here' slogan is a load invented by nation building interventionists.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 03:47:55 PM
I thought they already did that.  I do see your point, though.  But...last I heard ISIS executes all prisoners in ugly ways.  Am I mistaken?
@Cyber Liberty
I don't think you are wrong, but I don't know . We current abide by rules of war.  We as a nation should discuss it before we abandon those rules.  I never served in the military and I would prefer the people who fight and have fought decide if "taking no prisoners" is an effective tool to win.  If the Pentagon tells me its a good or bad policy I'll take them at their word...much as I did when they said "Good Lord, Mr. President, you're gonna undo all our progress against ISIS by pulling out of Syria.  There are thousands of ISIS POWs being held there."

In the movie Batman The Dark Knight Harvey Dent says "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  I hope that is not true.  I detest ISIS for their religious extremism and tactics...I don't want us to become more like them. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: 240B on October 13, 2019, 03:53:36 PM
Does Immigration & Naturalization have a rule that prevents radical muslims from immigrating here as long as we have troops in their home country?
No. I was literally trained to fight Muslims. My warfare training consisted of mock villages blaring out the Muslim call to prayer. The guys we shot (with blanks in training) were all wearing Muslim garb. We were trained to kill Muslims.

And yet when I go to the VA, more than 50% of the doctors and psychologists there were Muslims. I was speaking to them in the few words of broken Arabic that I know. Talk about a mind f**k! I went from killing them to depending on them for medical treatment? How can I confide in them, or tell them what happened. It took me a while to adapt. But that is the U.S. Government. Nothing makes any sense.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: skeeter on October 13, 2019, 03:58:22 PM
No. I was literally trained to fight Muslims. My warfare training consisted of mock villages blaring out the Muslim call to prayer. The guys we shot (with blanks in training) were all wearing Muslim garb. We were trained to kill Muslims.

And yet when I go to the VA, more than 50% of the doctors and psychologists there were Muslims. I was speaking to them in the few words of broken Arabic that I know. Talk about a mind f**k! I went from killing them to depending on them for medical treatment? How can I confide in them, or tell them what happened. It took me a while to adapt. But that is the U.S. Government. Nothing makes any sense.

Ilhan Omar is a perfect example of who we are importing now. Not all, of course, but many who hate us.

Its why I stopped buying W Bush etc line about fighting them over there while he and others endorsed bringing over all comers without any regard to who they are and what they believe.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 04:02:24 PM
@Cyber Liberty
I don't think you are wrong, but I don't know . We current abide by rules of war.  We as a nation should discuss it before we abandon those rules.  I never served in the military and I would prefer the people who fight and have fought decide if "taking no prisoners" is an effective tool to win.  If the Pentagon tells me its a good or bad policy I'll take them at their word...much as I did when they said "Good Lord, Mr. President, you're gonna undo all our progress against ISIS by pulling out of Syria.  There are thousands of ISIS POWs being held there."

In the movie Batman The Dark Knight Harvey Dent says "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."  I hope that is not true.  I detest ISIS for their religious extremism and tactics...I don't want us to become more like them.

I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought). 

Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 04:04:01 PM


@TomSea

The same could have been said for Iraq under Saddam Hussein. There were even Jewish Temples and Christian churches there,with Iraqui soldiers to guard them and the people who went to them to worship.

None of which stopped Boy Jorge from declaring war on Iraq to please his Saudi pimps.

George W Bush was/is an idiot.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 13, 2019, 04:12:03 PM
Against a NATO Ally?

So if Turkey declared war against Israel, we'd have to help Turkey?
Oh hell no.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 04:15:20 PM
@jpsb

HOW did Trump "Really step into it this time"? Is he,or the US their daddy? If not,WHY are WE responsible for the Kurds? Isn't there a big building in NYC called the UN that is supposed to take responsibility for situations like this?

@sneakypete

Because he gave permission to Turkey's Erdoğan to invade Syria so the Turks would wipe out the Kurds.
Bigest betrayal of an ally since we let the Vet-con slaughter our S. Vietnam allies. And he is facing and intense
black lash from both just about everyone except the Always Trumpers. At the very moment he needs all the
support he can get he pulls off a foreign policy disaster. And for what, Turkey? Screw Turkey. This might very
well cost him his presidency.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought).


As I said, better minds than mine will have to justify or condemn taking prisoners.

Quote
Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.
I'd say out of the 5 my sympathy goes to the Kurds, despite their refusal to help us invade Normandy.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 13, 2019, 04:22:42 PM
I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2, but that didn't stop them from fighting to the last man every chance they got.  I'm sort of surprised to hear that an enemy who prides themselves for being willing to use suicide as a protocol would allow themselves to be captured in the first place.  Seems like they are faking surrender, in order to get a better shot at our soldiers.

Additionally, I'd say there's a high likelihood that if ISIS prisoners are "escaping," it's probably on purpose.  Syria could be letting them go with a promise to not fight Assad (which would prove Assad is a bigger fool than I thought). 

Way more questions than answers about what's going on in that shithole region.  Kurds are spread out through Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran.  Is it wrong for me to hope all five parties (those 4 + the Kurds) in the conflict lose?  Probably.

It is a well known fact that Turkey's sides with ISIS and allowed them free passage into and out of Turkey. So no Assad is no the one freeing them Turkey is. Trump got rolled by Erdoğan.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 04:41:14 PM
So if Turkey declared war against Israel, we'd have to help Turkey?
Oh hell no.

I'd say we'd not hold Turkey's coat while they do it, no.  We would have to pick which Ally to side with, which is probably why George Washington thought of alliances as "entangling."

We have conflicting alliances all over the damned world, nowhere worse than in the ME and SW Asia.  Is this tenable?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 04:48:44 PM
It is a well known fact that Turkey's sides with ISIS and allowed them free passage into and out of Turkey. So no Assad is no the one freeing them Turkey is. Trump got rolled by Erdoğan.

Somebody is "holding" the "prisoners" that are supposedly escaping.  I'd submit it certainly is possible Turkey's liberating them as they're going along, maybe even probable, but what kind of fool would house prisoners near the front line, where the enemy can be tempted to do just that? 

Speaking of "ISIS prisoners," what's this noise I hear about countries refusing to take back their expats who went to join ISIS?  Why the Hell not?  They broke the laws of those countries, nobody but Moslems and bed-wetting liberals are going to complain about their being locked up until they rot in their countries of citizenship.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 05:04:26 PM


As I said, better minds than mine will have to justify or condemn taking prisoners.
I'd say out of the 5 my sympathy goes to the Kurds, despite their refusal to help us invade Normandy.

@Once-Ler

Kurdish WWII veterans: Trump wasn’t born when we fought the Nazis

https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019 (https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019)

Quote
Delzar, who was born in 1920 and is a well-known Kurdish poet, became a member of the Iraq Levies, a minority scout force established by the British during the First World War to control Iraq, in 1943.

“The levies were mainly Assyrians and Kurds and a smaller number of Arabs,” Delzar told Rudaw. “I was the 8,000th Kurd who joined the levies during the Second World War. I joined the levies on 24th of February 1943.”

Actually, it appears some Kurds did fight the Nazis, maybe this article is saying when Iraq was part of the British Empire, Iraq must have produced some fighters for the empire including Kurds.

But we send these soldiers and arms and planes to the Saudis, I don't know about saying Turkey sides with ISIS, etc.

But, I'd say Turkey and Saudi Arabia have surely fielded a number of soldiers for ISIS, someone must fund them too; surely some of that comes from Saudi Arabia if only from individual citizens.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 05:10:38 PM
Now, the Kurds will be aligned with the Damascus Government, Iran will have a clear path to Israel. If the Kurds had their "autonomous" or own-governed area,  I read one analyst say, we could watch Iran from there. Now, even though, we have the al Tanf, Syria small base to watch Iran, I don't see how we can keep it but. Not only are we on the outs with the Kurds, I don't see how they can be our friends any time soon.  But this other is Israel's worries, not ours I suppose.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 05:11:39 PM
@Once-Ler

Kurdish WWII veterans: Trump wasn’t born when we fought the Nazis

https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019 (https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/13102019)

Actually, it appears some Kurds did fight the Nazis, maybe this article is saying when Iraq was part of the British Empire, Iraq must have produced some fighters for the empire including Kurds.

(https://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Rudy-Giuliani-Scream.jpg)
Trump lied to the American people? 

I'm gonna start a list

Trump Lies
#1 Kurds did fight the Nazis
#2

OK.  Let's hope that doesn't happen again, but if it does I'm ready and waiting.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 05:14:58 PM
Somebody is "holding" the "prisoners" that are supposedly escaping.  I'd submit it certainly is possible Turkey's liberating them as they're going along, maybe even probable, but what kind of fool would house prisoners near the front line, where the enemy can be tempted to do just that? 
The Kurds in NE Syria were holding the ISIS prisoners
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 05:16:53 PM
The Nato charter with Turkey would probably demand something like Israel actually attack Turkey for us to side with Turkey.

That seems incredibly remote at this time. Also, Israel has real perceived enemies in Iran, Israel has bombed Syria over 100 times in the past year, airstrikes on Iranian interests... it's kind of unreal but true.

So, at this point, Turkey vs. Israel is certainly a fantasy.  Anything is possible I suppose.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 05:21:33 PM
Turkey vs. Russia-backed Syria? I think this confrontation will not go anywhere now....maybe the Administration knew this? Hard to say, pity anyone died. It's hard to imagine these two sides will get it on and Russia is a bit friendly with Turkey actually, they've worked to cultivate that, provided an air defense system for them.  Maybe Turkey keeps some land in the North.  So my friend told me, Turkey already took some Syrian land in the past, "al Hayat", that looked like it happened some time ago, I didn't feel like researching it but I did see that there is some area in Turkey called al Hayat.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 05:25:38 PM
The Kurds in NE Syria were holding the ISIS prisoners

If the troops holding the prisoners are "irregulars," then could they be reasonably blamed if they shot them all before their position gets overrun?  The Kurds, not having a country, are not "regular Army."

But I agree, deciding the morality of that is wayyyy over my pay grade.

Meanwhile, all foreign fighters should be thrown in prisons in their home countries.  If some chap from London decides to joyride to Syria so he can join ISIS, he should be hanging out somewhere under the Tower of London.  Omar's constituents should be in a MN prison.  This is a bit of a side-issue that's cropped up with the Euros because they don't seem to want to do it, but instead fob it off on the Kurds.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 05:27:26 PM
Turkey vs. Russia-backed Syria? I think this confrontation will not go anywhere now....maybe the Administration knew this? Hard to say, pity anyone died. It's hard to imagine these two sides will get it on and Russia is a bit friendly with Turkey actually, they've worked to cultivate that, provided an air defense system for them.  Maybe Turkey keeps some land in the North.  So my friend told me, Turkey already took some Syrian land in the past, "al Hayat", that looked like it happened some time ago, I didn't feel like researching it but I did see that there is some area in Turkey called al Hayat.

Maybe in the end this will drive a wedge between turkey and Russia?   :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 05:48:26 PM
Quote
Matthew RJ Brodsky
@RJBrodsky
If this happens, Trump will have essentially offered up over a third of #Syria to #Iran. Makes you wonder what nuclear deal he envisions with Tehran, besides one that contains the word “strong” in the title.
Quote Tweet
Quote
Raf Sanchez
@rafsanchez
 · 4h
It's very early and the situation is very fluid.

But it may be that we see a fullscale Kurdish surrender to the Assad regime tonight. Abandoned by the US, it looks like SDF will try to spare their cities from Turkish onslaught by allowing Syrian forces to take them over.
Show this thread

https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1183452093203537920 (https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1183452093203537920)

What it appears we are doing is not good for Israel, maybe one can just say, "well, that's their problem".

So, try to see the truth, a lot of hysteria, I find it doubtful, Turkey will square off with Syria if Russia backs the Assad army with air support....

So, conceivably, we could see this crisis end with not that much loss of life, that's a bit hard to say.

Here's a sharp picture of a Kurd Militia at a ceremony, March of this year:

(https://images.jpost.com/image/upload/f_auto,fl_lossy/t_Article2016_ControlFaceDetect/447682)
https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/US-says-reports-of-killing-of-Kurdish-politician-extremely-troubling-604526 (https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/US-says-reports-of-killing-of-Kurdish-politician-extremely-troubling-604526)

If they are Muslims, they are "Secular" Muslims... not to be confused with radicals, a tiny amount of Kurds have gone and fought with ISIS, lots of ins and outs.

Check this out!

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
37m
So, before signing off:

• US forces, presumably, are still in Manbij, Deirezzour, Raqqa
Several reports claim SDF/YPG’s deal with Assad doesn’t include Deirezzour and Raqqa
And credible reports say US jets struck Assad forces in Deirezzour TONIGHT.

So, what’s up?

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu)

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
NEW — U.S. forces in the West of Manbij blocked Assad regime forces from entering the town — according to a report by pro-Assad Al Mayadeen, citing Kurdish sources
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
US forces evacuated their base in Kobani, Turkish security sources tell Anadolu
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
1h
Erdogan seems okay with Assad taking over below the Turkish safe zone:

“[What happens] beyond the 32km deep safe zone is up to U.S. and [Assad] regime. Because regime wants to be in. We may only take steps to provide logistical support to US-led coalition”, he said today.

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu)

Amazing stuff there.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 05:55:06 PM
@TomSea  Maybe people are having to decide, who do they want angry with them?  I'm getting tired of people agreeing they want to be mad at the US.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 06:02:01 PM
Quote
Meet the Press
@MeetThePress
WATCH: Turkey using militias to advance in Syria, including former Al Qaeda and ISIS members “close to U.S. forces” #MTP #IfItsSunday

@RichardEngel
: "The situation is not how it has been portrayed over the last several days as a conventional Turkish assault."

https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/status/1183369572142977024

Twitter is like play-by-play,  I think that is Chuck Todd in the video of the above, and like him or dislike him, this Richard Engel fellow has been doing  pretty well over there.  What I'm saying, is I think he had a slant but still might provide good info.

I mean, the above is "Meet the Press", not perfect but....it's not like this is some obscure website saying this.

One might watch this woman, Jenan Moussa, video, she's actually been going into areas afflicted, I take it this is all authentic, I almost fear for her safety:

https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183469412592050176
Title: Re: State Department: Reports of Kurdish politician, captured fighters being killed 'extremely troub
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 06:28:18 PM
I was so looking toward to 2020 reelecting Trump and taking back the House, Trump as totally blown it in Syria
by betraying the Kurds.

Yes, deeply disappointing, I could feel different some time in the future, next Summer, whenever but for now, I think I could vote for one of 4 or 5 Senators over him....but it all takes some thought,  to see how things proceed.

Too bad, the Democrats can't even come up with someone who is reasonable, in the center, they can't even do that. We'll see how 2020 goes.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 13, 2019, 06:45:29 PM
If the troops holding the prisoners are "irregulars," then could they be reasonably blamed if they shot them all before their position gets overrun?  The Kurds, not having a country, are not "regular Army."
That's a very good point and there is no guarantee the Kurdish government would prosecute war crimes against Kurdish guards who shot their ISIS POWs.  For all we know they did shoot some or even most of them while they report a couple hundred fled.  I don't know how many prisoners they had.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 06:49:09 PM
I don't have an answer for that, but I did want let you know how much I admire your manly approval of shooting surrendering soldiers.

@Once-Ler

Want a pastry to go with that whine?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 06:56:51 PM

Its why I stopped buying W Bush etc line about fighting them over there while he and others endorsed bringing over all comers without any regard to who they are and what they believe.

@skeeter

You didn't realize that Boy Jorge was bending over and grabbing his ankles for (then) Prince Abdullah? Seriously? There were photos of them kissing each other on the mouth all over the place.

Hell,Saddam Hussein was an ally of America,and was responsible for killing more fundie Muslims that everybody else combined,and then one day the Sauds decided he was a threat to them and needed to be whacked,so they whispered "sic 'em!" in Boy Jorge's shell like ear,and suddenly,overnight,Hussein became an enemy and a danger.
Title: Kurdish forces formerly under US protection forge deal with Russian and Iranian-backed Syrian regime
Post by: mystery-ak on October 13, 2019, 06:58:16 PM
Kurdish forces formerly under US protection forge deal with Russian and Iranian-backed Syrian regime
by Zachary Halaschak
 | October 13, 2019 05:36 PM



The Kurdish forces the United States fought the Islamic State alongside are now turning to the Syrian government for help after Defense Secretary Mark Esper announced an evacuation of most U.S. troops in the country.

The Syrian Democratic Forces, a majority Kurdish group based in northeast Syria, has reportedly struck a deal with Syrian strongman Bashar Assad. As part of the deal, forces loyal to Assad will fill the vacuum left by the U.S. and return to Kurdish parts of the country for the first time in seven years.

The agreement was forged in order to protect the Kurds from Turkey, which has launched a military incursion against them after President Trump cleared the way for Turkey to do so by relocating troops.

Assad is supported by both Iran and Russia, and his government forces have been accused of committing numerous atrocities, including chemical weapons attacks against civilians.

The Pentagon chief announced Sunday that the U.S. was evacuating about 1,000 troops from northern Syria

“In the last 24 hours, we learned that [the Turks] likely intend to expand their attack further south than originally planned, and to the west,” Esper said Sunday on CBS's Face The Nation. “We also have learned in the last 24 hours that the ... SDF are looking to cut a deal, if you will, with the Syrians and the Russians to counterattack against the Turks in the north.

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kurdish-forces-formerly-under-us-protection-forge-deal-with-russian-and-iranian-backed-syrian-regime (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/kurdish-forces-formerly-under-us-protection-forge-deal-with-russian-and-iranian-backed-syrian-regime)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 07:00:44 PM
Quote
I agree we should not "be like them," but IIRC, we and Japan took prisoners during WW2,
 

@Cyber Liberty

We took damn few Japanese prisoners during WW-2. US Marines and US Army soldiers tried at first,but quit trying after each surrender turned out to be an ambush instead. Yeah,they would take one as a prisoner if he were unconscious from a concussion or something,but if he looked healthy and came out with his arms up,they were going to shoot him and ask questions later.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 07:02:26 PM
George W Bush was/is an idiot.

@jpsb

And a male whore pimped out to the Sauds by his mother. She was the brains in the family,and the one that gave the marching orders.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 07:08:04 PM
@sneakypete

@jpsb


Quote
Because he gave permission to Turkey's Erdoğan to invade Syria so the Turks would wipe out the Kurds.

Really? Where did you hear that fairy tale,"The View"? Is there a list of other foreign countries that won't invade their neighbors until we give them permission?

Do they take tickets and participate in a raffle?

Enquiring minds,and all dat.

Quote
Bigest betrayal of an ally since we let the Vet-con slaughter our S. Vietnam allies. And he is facing and intense
black lash from both just about everyone except the Always Trumpers.

What an odd way to say "The anti-American left."

Quote
At the very moment he needs all thesupport he can get he pulls off a foreign policy disaster. And for what, Turkey? Screw Turkey. This might very
well cost him his presidency.

Ah kin feel yore pain!
 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 07:10:14 PM
So, the Russians might set up a no-fly zone? Why couldn't we... I know the Russians are there because of Assad but still:
Quote
Babak Taghvaee
@BabakTaghvaee
·
43m
#BREAKING: #Russia has not yet established No-Fly Zone over NE #Syria due to the fact that withdrawal of #US SOF is Now delayed for another 12 hours! Tomorrow when #Syria Arab Army will start its offensive against #Turkish Army & its terrorists, No-Fly zone might be established!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGynE8VWsAAwAtw?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1183504515850473474 (https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1183504515850473474)

Turk written editorial in the NY Times today (Ted Cruz wrote a one time opinion piece too, for WaPo or the NYT, so did Rubio, I guess as these are probably the countries largest newspapers, they publish these kinds of things):

Quote
Opinion | Why Turkey Took the Fight to Syria
By Mevlut Cavusoglu
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/opinion/turkey-syria-military-operation.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/opinion/turkey-syria-military-operation.html)

Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
Surreal week covering #Syria. Reflecting on conflict, some Qs:

• What did half million Syrian die for?
• Who draws the borders in Mideast?
• What does US stand for in region?
• What are the rules of invasions and ethnic transfers?
• Where are we headed?

No easy answers...

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183502291850223616 (https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183502291850223616)

Square miles, Syria is around the size of Florida, unbelievable about this war.

Some reports say the CHRISTIANS are in fact, happy that they are submitting to the Damascus government, maybe the CHRISTIANS benefit from all of this.  This is of course, unconfirmed, you know, retweets don't mean endorsement.

Quote
Pullback Leaves Green Berets Feeling ‘Ashamed,’ and Kurdish Allies Describing ‘Betrayal’
By Eric Schmitt, Thomas Gibbons-Neff, Ben Hubbard and Helene Cooper

(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/10/11/us/politics/11dc-kurds1/merlin_141914427_8143e496-e056-43e6-8342-b3273c8ab598-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale)
Kurdish troops in the Syrian town of Manbij, near the border with Turkey, at a front-line position last year.CreditCreditIvor Prickett for The New York Times

    Oct. 13, 2019Updated 6:22 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON — American commandos were working alongside Kurdish forces at an outpost in eastern Syria last year when they were attacked by columns of Syrian government tanks and hundreds of troops, including Russian mercenaries. In the next hours, the Americans threw the Pentagon’s arsenal at them, including B-52 strategic bombers. The attack was stopped.

That operation, in the middle of the American-led campaign against the Islamic State in Syria, showed the extent to which the United States military was willing to protect the Syrian Kurds, its main ally on the ground.

But now, with the White House revoking protection for these Kurdish fighters, some of the Special Forces officers who battled alongside the Kurds say they feel deep remorse at orders to abandon their allies.


More at:  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/kurds-syria-turkey-trump.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/kurds-syria-turkey-trump.html)

Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
Who does US withdrawal benefit in #Syria ?

1- Russia (boosts Putin,  outreach to Kurds inc SDF)
2- ISIS (biggest threat)
3- Assad (takeover US areas)
4- Iran (land bridge and influence)
5- Turkey (operate freely in NE)

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183392822537474048 (https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1183392822537474048)

We drop the ball big time, at least, maybe we won't be in the "endless war", sad, and we will remain in Iraq, I'm not really all that happy with being in Saudi Arabia though, SA is probably reforming some.

OKAY, here it is:
Quote

Iraqi Christian Foundation

@iraqschristians
Syrian Christians in Northeast #Syria confirm they oppose the Kurdish-YPG militia & have been held hostage by YPG. Syrian Christians pray the YPG terrorists will finally be forced out & that the Syrian Army will take control of the area. Keep #SyrianChristians in your prayers.
🙏

https://twitter.com/iraqschristians/status/1183416398502121473 (https://twitter.com/iraqschristians/status/1183416398502121473)

Unfortunately, the biggest cause of the problems over there probably is Assad but for Christians, he probably is best for them from all of my research, not that he necessarily adores them but minority groups, the Druze too, probably are helpful against the Sunni masses.  Assad probably has aided forces that have hurt Americans, definitely so, so we will see.

#syria for more.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 07:11:35 PM
One might watch this woman, Jenan Moussa, video, she's actually been going into areas afflicted, I take it this is all authentic, I almost fear for her safety:

https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183469412592050176

What a brave, tough, lovely lady!   :0001: :0001: :0001: :0001: :0001:

Why can't we have reporters like that? 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 07:19:32 PM
That's a very good point and there is no guarantee the Kurdish government would prosecute war crimes against Kurdish guards who shot their ISIS POWs.  For all we know they did shoot some or even most of them while they report a couple hundred fled.  I don't know how many prisoners they had.

Knowing how many prisoners we're talking about would sure be nice, but we can't get straight reporting in the best of times, let alone in a fresh and highly active war zone.  Still, it seems to me that if my position is being overrun by the enemy, I'd want to make sure all the people with fresh grudges against me are too dead to act upon them. 

Maybe it's harsh of me, since I have no soldier experience as do some of my friends here, but I'd put in overtime making sure every POW I've been guarding is dead (especially if I've been a cruel turnkey).  Those folks will stab me with a set of nail-clippers if they had the chance.

I am but a keyboard kommando, I'm a fish out of water trying to grasp what I would do in such a circumstance.  I must defer to folks like @txradioguy.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 13, 2019, 07:25:24 PM
I'd say we'd not hold Turkey's coat while they do it, no.  We would have to pick which Ally to side with, which is probably why George Washington thought of alliances as "entangling."

We have conflicting alliances all over the damned world, nowhere worse than in the ME and SW Asia.  Is this tenable?

The very same as between Turkey and the Kurds. Seems to me, the dreams of an earstwhile companion should not outweigh the companion whose blood mingles with ours in realtime... Not to mention bringing another army into a volatile situation.

What a mistake - Both tactically, and far more importantly, morally.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 07:26:53 PM
 


@Cyber Liberty

We took damn few Japanese prisoners during WW-2. US Marines and US Army soldiers tried at first,but quit trying after each surrender turned out to be an ambush instead. Yeah,they would take one as a prisoner if he were unconscious from a concussion or something,but if he looked healthy and came out with his arms up,they were going to shoot him and ask questions later.

@sneakypete

That is my understanding of the warfare of that time.  My Pappy was Navy in that Theater, and a "bus-driver," but he was close enough to understand it was Hell, and prisoners were a problem when the enemy is trained to pretend to surrender.  I'd probably shoot them too, because if I didn't get killed, my company would.

This was similar to Nam that way, and in the 60's-70's we had a lot of squeamish civilians here in the states that had no understanding of how difficult it can be to identify dangerous people in these situations.  How many buddies would I have to watch die before I acquire the "Let God sort them out" mentality?  It's beyond my ability to grasp, being so far removed from my life's experiences.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 07:31:36 PM
The very same as between Turkey and the Kurds. Seems to me, the dreams of an earstwhile companion should not outweigh the companion whose blood mingles with ours in realtime... Not to mention bringing another army into a volatile situation.

What a mistake - Both tactically, and far more importantly, morally.

This combined blood being shed is why I feel my true friend on TBR is so bloody pissed at Trump right now.  Together we've shed blood ridding ourselves of the scourge of Daesh, and I would be more than a little upset at seeing my friends betrayed, as appears to be what's happening.

It goes on the negative side of the Trump Balance Sheet.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 07:32:34 PM

 It's beyond my ability to grasp, being so far removed from my life's experiences.

@Cyber Liberty

It was also beyond the grasp of many of the people who served there in combat roles.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 13, 2019, 07:37:16 PM
This combined blood being shed is why I feel my true friend on TBR is so bloody pissed at Trump right now.  Together we've shed blood ridding ourselves of the scourge of Daesh, and I would be more than a little upset at seeing my friends betrayed, as appears to be what's happening.

It goes on the negative side of the Trump Balance Sheet.

That's damn well right. Goes to show why it is so important to listen to Defense Conservatives, and elect people to office that know honor and duty personally... That they will not make grievous mistakes like thing one.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 07:38:24 PM
https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/16811829/1566146980/1500x500)

This lady, Sara Firth was in Egypt last  I knew, so she is pretty sharp too. She is from the UK.

Over the summer, a movie was made about Marie Colvin:   

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Colvin

Perhaps, I'll see the movie some time.  Who knows. The situation is fowled up over there. Just observing.

I'm very sorry for all who have died in that war, died, injured and so on. Well, I'm not sorry for ISIS and Jihadists who have but you get the picture.  A lot of innocents have died.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 13, 2019, 07:53:02 PM
https://twitter.com/Sara__Firth

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/16811829/1566146980/1500x500)

This lady, Sara Firth was in Egypt last  I knew, so she is pretty sharp too. She is from the UK.

Over the summer, a movie was made about Marie Colvin:   

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Colvin

Perhaps, I'll see the movie some time.  Who knows. The situation is fowled up over there. Just observing.

I'm very sorry for all who have died in that war, died, injured and so on. Well, I'm not sorry for ISIS and Jihadists who have but you get the picture.  A lot of innocents have died.

With more to come, @TomSea.   8888crybaby
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 07:54:57 PM
If one reads a number of the websites I have posted, a lot of Russians have been killed over there, a fair number at least.

We lose enough in Afghanistan .
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 13, 2019, 07:58:25 PM
@Cyber Liberty

It was also beyond the grasp of many of the people who served there in combat roles.

I had a very good friend who fought in the Pacific in WWII.

He said they killed everybody at the end. EVERYBODY.

Did he like it? No.

You could see the horror in his eyes when he spoke of it.

That is the way it was.

He spent 6 months in a reeducation center in Australia to retrain him how to be a "normal" person instead of a psychotic killer.

It took him years before the urge to kill any oriental on sight left him.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: FeelNoPain on October 13, 2019, 08:09:53 PM
That's damn well right. Goes to show why it is so important to listen to Defense Conservatives, and elect people to office that know honor and duty personally... That they will not make grievous mistakes like thing one.

Agreed.
But when a man makes proclamations of having "great and unmatched wisdom" and "knowing more than the generals" this is what we get.
Title: Re: Kurdish forces formerly under US protection forge deal with Russian and Iranian-backed Syrian re
Post by: kevindavis on October 13, 2019, 08:24:28 PM
I'm sure I'll be told this is a good thing. Which isn't.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 13, 2019, 10:09:06 PM
It's like Trump has no concept of the world or is too ethnocentric.

Yeah, Kim, Xi, maybe these guys make a good impression on him.

It's not easy to judge but he's on my warning list, America has taken on a good direction but ISIS can return and I certainly feel bad for the Kurds and others who counted on us so much.

A black day, there are other circumstances, so we will see.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 10:22:07 PM
Quote
Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria

Ya think?  Didn't they also do something in Armenia a while back?
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 13, 2019, 10:24:49 PM
Senate Democrat on Turkey sanctions: 'For God's sake, what are they waiting for?'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465567-democratic-senator-on-turkey-sanctions-for-gods-sake-what-are-they

Punishing average Turkish citizens is going to have exactly what effect on the actions of their government?
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 10:29:22 PM
Trump betrayed the Kurds in Syria. 

What did the President promise that was not delivered to "the Kurds" @jpsb ??

Asking for a friend.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 13, 2019, 10:31:07 PM
Agreed.
But when a man makes proclamations of having "great and unmatched wisdom" and "knowing more than the generals" this is what we get.


@WOW! I am just floored at the immense amount of knowledge  and personal experience with war that you must have to understand Trump's shortcomings so well!

 Who are you real life,Obomber?  Biden? Liewatha?

C'mon,fess up!
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 10:31:52 PM
Senate Democrat on Turkey sanctions: 'For God's sake, what are they waiting for?'
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465567-democratic-senator-on-turkey-sanctions-for-gods-sake-what-are-they

Syria's now fighting Turkey.  Maybe we could stand outside the fray for a moment and see what happens with this turn of events.

Or can't we stand not to be in the center for even a moment?
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 10:33:09 PM
GOP congressman: 'We all know' Turkey wouldn't have attacked if U.S. troops remained at border
https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/465576-gop-congressman-we-all-know-turkey-wouldnt-have-attacked-if-us

And we all know the US wasn't going to help the Kurds attack Turkey.

So where should this have gone?
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 10:33:55 PM
What did the President promise that was not delivered to "the Kurds" @jpsb ??

Asking for a friend.

You've got a point.  Just like Hitler never promised to protect the Jews.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 10:40:09 PM
You've got a point.  Just like Hitler never promised to protect the Jews.

So much hate, so little intellect.  The Kurds are fighting their multiple governments for territory .. and they're doing so to the death. The Jews were innocent.  Big difference, learn it --- if you have two working brain cells left.





Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 10:45:15 PM
So much hate, so little intellect.  The Kurds are fighting their multiple governments for territory .. and they're doing so to the death. The Jews were innocent.  Big difference, learn it --- if you have two working brain cells left.

Ah, so it has nothing to do with what was promised.  Instead, it has everything to do with your judgment call on whether the Kurds are worth protecting.  Got it.

You should have simply been up front with that from the beginning instead of worrying about protecting Trump.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 13, 2019, 10:55:38 PM
Ah, so it has nothing to do with what was promised.  Instead, it has everything to do with your judgment call on whether the Kurds are worth protecting.  Got it.  You should have simply been up front with that from the beginning instead of worrying about protecting Trump.

We fulfilled every promise to "the Kurds".  We helped them kill ISIS and we left them richer, better trained and better equipped.

We were not there to protect "the Kurds".  To do this we would have to engage in battle with Syria and Turkey, possibly Russia and as a long-shot, Iran, as well.

Why does this still confuse you?  It's really quite straightforward and simple.





Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 11:02:42 PM
We were not there to protect "the Kurds".

Were we there to invite the Turks in to do whatever they want to the Kurds?  Asking for a friend.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 11:20:03 PM
Ah, here you go, @Right_in_Virginia.  Here are your Trump promises.  This is what he said in January:

Quote
Trump gives no timetable for Syria exit; wants to protect Kurds

~ Trump was committed to making sure Turkey did not clash with the Kurdish YPG forces once U.S. troops leave Syria, and was assuring the NATO ally that it would have a buffer zone in the region to help protect its own interests. ~

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-trump-idUSKCN1OW1GV (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-trump-idUSKCN1OW1GV)


And later that same month:

Quote
Trump tells worried ally 'I love the Kurds' in hotel meeting

~ "I love the Kurds," Trump told Kurdish Leader Ilham Ahmed in an unconventional diplomatic meeting at the Trump International Hotel in Washington on Monday night.
Ahmed asked Trump if he would leave the Kurds in Syria to be slaughtered by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Trump promised them he would not. ~

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/trump-kurds-hotel-meeting/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/politics/trump-kurds-hotel-meeting/index.html)
Title: Kurds agree to Russian-brokered plan to allow Assad into their territory
Post by: Hoodat on October 13, 2019, 11:30:45 PM
Kurds agree to Russian-brokered plan to allow Assad into their territory

Raf Sanchez & Josie Ensor     |     14 October 2019   12:38 am


The West’s Kurdish allies on Sunday night announced they had agreed to a Russian-brokered deal to allow the Assad regime into their territory in a bid to spare their cities from a Turkish assault after they were abandoned by Donald Trump.

Hours after the US said it was withdrawing all of its troops from northern Syria, the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) said it had reached an agreement to allow Bashar al-Assad’s troops into their territory.

“If we have to choose between compromises and the genocide of our people, we will surely choose life for our people,” said Mazloum Kobani Abdi, the commander of the SDF.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/13/kurds-agree-russian-brokered-plan-allow-assad-territory/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/13/kurds-agree-russian-brokered-plan-allow-assad-territory/)




Gee, who saw that coming?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 14, 2019, 04:58:30 AM
There should never have been 10,000 ISIS prisoners to begin with.
I am inclined to agree. It should have appeared Vlad Tepes had returned.
Title: Syrian troops enter northeastern town after deal with Kurdish forces: state media
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 05:16:56 AM
Quote
Syrian troops enter northeastern town after deal with Kurdish forces: state media
Ellen Francis, Tuvan Gumrukcu

BEIRUT/ANKARA (Reuters) - Syria’s troops have entered a northeastern town, Syrian state media said on Monday, after Washington announced it was abruptly pulling out its forces, and its former Kurdish allies reached a deal with Damascus to help resist a Turkish attack.

The abrupt U.S. withdrawal from the eight-year Syrian war, and the potential return of the Syrian army to the Kurdish-controlled northeast, are major victories for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his allies Russia and Iran.

The U.S. announced on Sunday it would swiftly withdraw its remaining 1,000 troops from northeast Syria, just four days after Turkey launched its cross-border offensive with a green light from President Donald Trump.

Read more at: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa/syrian-troops-enter-northeastern-town-after-deal-with-kurdish-forces-state-media-idUSKBN1WT0ZC (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa/syrian-troops-enter-northeastern-town-after-deal-with-kurdish-forces-state-media-idUSKBN1WT0ZC)

All related Syria stories will be merged into the large thread after a day or so.
Title: Re: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 05:36:16 AM
Quote
...

With Turkey making increasing noise in recent months about forcing the Kurdish militia away from its border, the American military made contingency plans to get about five dozen of the highest-priority detainees out of Syria.

The planning began last December, when Mr. Trump first announced that he would withdraw troops from the country before his administration slowed down that plan, one official said.

American special forces moved first to get the two British detainees, El Shafee Elsheikh and Alexanda Kotey, on Oct. 9, in part because there was a clear plan for them already in place: The Justice Department wants to bring them to Virginia for prosecution. They are now being held in Iraq.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/syria-turkey-invasion-isis.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/13/world/middleeast/syria-turkey-invasion-isis.html)

So, we miss getting about 5 dozen high-priority detainees.  They will have them, Assad and the Kurds.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 05:39:25 AM
Quote
World News
October 14, 2019 / 3:59 AM / Updated 38 minutes ago
Erdogan sees no issues in Kobani after Syrian deployment, welcomes U.S. withdrawal

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday he does not think any problems will emerge in Syria’s Kobani after a Syrian army deployment is executed along the border, adding that Russia’s Vladimir Putin had shown a “positive approach.”

Earlier on Monday, Syrian army troops entered the town of Tel Tamer in northeastern Syria, according to state media, after Damascus reached an agreement with the Kurdish-led forces in the region to deploy into the area to counter an attack by Turkey.

Read more at: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-erdogan/erdogan-sees-no-issues-in-kobani-after-syrian-deployment-welcomes-u-s-withdrawal-idUSKBN1WT11N (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-erdogan/erdogan-sees-no-issues-in-kobani-after-syrian-deployment-welcomes-u-s-withdrawal-idUSKBN1WT11N)

So, maybe no confrontation?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
It sounds like they are calling the "Free Syrian Army" the "Syrian National Army" and it sounds like, if there is a battle upcoming soon, it coujld be in Manbij where we have had US military patrols previously.

Quote
Syrian National Army: few hours remaining to launch the battle of Manbij against YPG militia
  14 Oct, 2019

The Syrian National Army confirmed that the battle of Manbij east of Aleppo against the People's Protection Units YPG militia will be launched in the next few hours, following threats by Russia and the Assad regime to enter the city.

Major, Yusuf al-Hamoud, a spokesman for the Syrian National Army, said that in cooperation with the Turkish Army, the road will be blocked for anyone who wants to throw some of the vultures off the scent, adding that the battle is about to be launched in few hours.

"Al-Hamoud" stressed that all the rumors circulated about the entry of the Assad regime forces into the city of Manbij and Ain al-Arab in eastern Aleppo countryside are baseless, noting that the regime is trying to achieve some gains in cooperation with protection militia.

Read more at: https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16327 (https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16327)

This is interesting, this sounds like an Assad relative (grandson of Hafez Assad's sister) was fighting in one of the militias (not necessarily "Islamic extremists" in Latakia (area where Russia's warm water port is and a relatively "safe area") against the Assad government, this is pretty confusing. Also, note, in this picture, he's wearing some sort of garb, yes, it looks a bit priestly but I'm not sure if it is at that.
Quote

The grandson of Hafez Al-Assad's sister is killed in clashes in Lattakia
  13 Oct, 2019

(https://nedaa-sy.com/storage/news_images/16316/7DVfmOhEyZOeyXFt00NIyXIv0bEkBaOkMofZVPgT.jpeg?w=720&h=405)

"Ghaidiq Marwan Deeb," the grandson of the former head of the Syrian regime Hafez al-Assad's sister and the leader of the al-Ghadiq militia, was killed on Saturday in clashes with the Assad regime's security forces that attacked him at his home in Latakia.

Heavy clashes with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades took place on Saturday between groups of "security of the regime" and members of the militia "Al-Ghaidiq" when the first attempted to raid the home of the militia leader "Gaidaq Deeb" near the roundabout agriculture in Latakia in order to arrest him, media sources reported.

The sources pointed out that the clashes resulted in a number of dead and wounded in the ranks of both parties, stressing that among the deaths, "Gaidiq" himself, who died as a result of being targeted by a cannon "B10".

Read more at: https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16316 (https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16316)

Daddy Hafez Assad meeting with Bill Clinton (I know Hafez Assad met with some US Presidents)
(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/252770/rtr55jv.jpg)

(http://www.syrianhistory.com/uploads/photo/image/show_687.jpg)

So, yes, the "wars" in Syria have even deeply affected the Assad family and this is not the first time either. As said, Syria square miles wise, seems to be similar in size to Florida. What a confusing situation.

What's up with these pictures? I think even back then, Syria was still designated by the state department as being a "sponsor" of terrorism (see support of Hezbollah against Israel and Lebanese civil war too).
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 06:32:33 AM
Check this VIDEO out, "our" allies or former allies, SDF welcome Assad's army into Manbij and soon, they could face the Turk army or Turk-backed forces:
Quote
Babak Taghvaee
@BabakTaghvaee
·
1h
#BREAKING: I received this video from #SDF. First group of #Syria Arab Army troops entered #Manbij just an hour ago after #US SOF had its last remaining heavy equipment evacuated. Now, #SAA & #SDF are ready to defend the city against #Turkey #OperationPeaceSpring/#BarisPinari!

https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1183672246516244480

2 star flag of Syria on the tank...

While I hate seeing the SDF allied with the Damascus regime,  with us, it was like we were sitting on our hands while the Turks and their forces could just beat the daylights out of the Kurds and the Christians.  I mean, that is what is so galling over the past several days, to see the forces we supported get beat or their civilians.... and plus, Russia will be enforcing a no-fly zone....

It sounds like the SDF did not heavily prepare for the Turk invasion either, they thought maybe it would not come? That the US would be more forceful? What a horrible dark episode.

More from that account.

SAA (Syrian Arab Army- Assad forces) being welcomed into Manbij by SDF.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG1L5kqW4AAWPpt?format=jpg&name=small)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG1L5krXYAIuHwS?format=jpg&name=small)

We had joint patrols with the Turks in Northern Syria, anyway, we will see.  I'm glad they've got some help, what a sad affair.

Quote
Brett McGurk
@brett_mcgurk
Bottom line: it’s shameful to leave partners to their fate and the mercies of hostile actors with no thought, plan or process in place. I wish my former SDF colleagues the best as they find new patrons. We won a war together. That’s something nobody can take away from us.

https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1183516758587707399

McGurk is not perfect but it does sound like he helped out a whole, whole lot.

Quote
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGyl3IZX4AIQ0lB?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/jseldin/status/1183503196624474112

For international issues, I know who this Senator Jack Reed (D) of Rhode Island is, for international issues, I do think he's competent.  Whether I could ever vote for what else the Dems stand for, domestically, well no... but on this other, some of these guys aren't too bad.
Title: Re: Syrian troops enter northeastern town after deal with Kurdish forces: state media
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 09:11:51 AM
Quote
The abrupt U.S. withdrawal from the eight-year Syrian war, and the potential return of the Syrian army to the Kurdish-controlled northeast, are major victories for Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and his allies Russia and Iran.

Here's one scenario...

Assad officially survives the civil war begun to overthrow him.  The Kurds in NE Syria end their push for separate self-governance in exchange for protection from the Turks.  The Kurds welcome the Syrian troops with open arms and stop their fight against the Syrian government, at least for now.

After fighting with the Syrian Army and the threat of crippling sanctions from the US, the Turks will stand down and allow the Syrian army to control the extremist Kurds within their borders; possibly a smaller buffer zone is negotiated.

The Syrian army, under Assad's direction and in their own unique way, will mop up the ISIS escapees.  If necessary, Russia will assist from the sidelines.   Other groups drawn to Syria's war will leave to fight another day, including Iran's proxy, Hezbollah.

Sooner, rather than later, Syria is in control of Syria and the fighting ends, at least long enough to mop up from this war.  The US contributes to the Syrian Marshall Plan. 

-OR-

All hell breaks loose and Turkey and Syria declare war.   
Title: Re: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 09:36:46 AM
So, we miss getting about 5 dozen high-priority detainees.  They will have them, Assad and the Kurds.

Assad and the Kurds will kill them.   :shrug:
Title: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 09:45:43 AM
The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
We’ve done right in Iraq. Elsewhere, the Kurdish question is beyond anyone’s ken.
American Spectator, Oct 14, 2019, Brandon J. Weichert

[...]

The fact is, despite being the world’s largest stateless ethnic population, sharing a contiguous landmass that cuts across Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran — roughly a 500,000-square-kilometer area — the Kurds are by no means a monolithic entity. What’s more, the United States government has never officially endorsed the concept of a Kurdish state in the Middle East.

Don’t let those facts stop the experts from trotting out many falsehoods and half-truths about the messy situation that is Syria, though. Obviously, the Kurds who have been fighting alongside Americans throughout the entirety of America’s three-decade-long series of Middle East conflicts should be rewarded for their courage. It is utterly confounding, however, that the same “serious” foreign-policy “thinkers” in Washington and media who continually lambaste President Trump for his supposedly destabilizing actions in the Middle East are also in favor of massively destabilizing the region to midwife the birth of an independent, Kurdish state.

The rejiggering of the Middle East map would require more than the paltry American force currently fighting alongside the Kurds of northern Syria. It not only would require the United States to understand the various tribal and regional dynamics between the numerous Kurdish communities throughout the Mideast but would also mean that any potential Kurdish state would have to be cleaved from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran. This could never be achieved peacefully. It would entail some degree of violence and inevitably invoke ethno-religious tribal backlash against the United States at precisely the moment America does not need that headache.

Further, what critics do not understand is that the Kurds have been rewarded for their loyalty to the United States. They also confuse the Marxist elements of northern Syria’s Kurds with the pro-American Peshmerga of northern Iraq.


Read (much) more:  https://spectator.org/the-syrian-kurds-are-not-americas-problem/
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 09:47:02 AM
FTA

Quote
The United States has done the right thing: Washington honored its commitment to Iraq’s Kurdish population by ensuring they exist as a separate yet equal component of Shiite-dominated Iraq. At the same time, though, Washington has ensured that its NATO partnership with Turkey is preserved by refusing to make any new, formal commitments to the Kurds in Syria. This may seem like an unfair move, but this is geopolitics we are discussing here.
Title: Re: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
Quote
Matthew RJ Brodsky
@RJBrodsky
No shame whatsoever. Just disgusting, fetid, and foul.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG1lvtUWwAANe3a?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/RJBrodsky/status/1183714152214388737

Matthew Brodsky is American.

Quote
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
....Kurds may be releasing some to get us involved. Easily recaptured by Turkey or European Nations from where many came, but they should move quickly. Big sanctions on Turkey coming! Do people really think we should go to war with NATO Member Turkey? Never ending wars will end!
6:14 AM · Oct 14, 2019·Twitter for iPhone
Title: Re: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 10:04:19 AM
Matthew Brodsky is American.

He's also a drama queen.
Title: Re: Turkey-Syria offensive: 'Hundreds' of IS relatives escape camp
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 10:17:08 AM
Assad and the Kurds will kill them.   :shrug:

Not really, that's why Assad is a bad guy to do business with and that's why a lot of people don't like this deal.

NEWSWEEK:

Quote
How Syria's Assad Helped Forge ISIS
By Simon Speakman Cordall   On 6/21/14 at 12:40 PM EDT

Mohammed Al-Saud is under no illusions. "In 2011, the majority of the current ISIS leadership was released from jail by Bashar Al Assad," he said. "No one in the regime has ever admitted this, or explained why." Al-Saud, a Syrian dissident with the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, left Syria under threat of arrest in 2011.

https://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631 (https://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631)

A lot of experts say Saddam did the same thing,  actually aiding Jihadists,

Assad was faced with popular protests in 2011 but if they can make it look like radical Islamists are in it, then, they can crush the dissent.

Quote
US Judge Rules Assad Helped Al-Qaeda Kill Americans.
     News Analysis
    Published May 8, 2017
    By Ryan Mauro

https://clarionproject.org/us-judge-rules-assad-helped-al-qaeda-kill-americans/ (https://clarionproject.org/us-judge-rules-assad-helped-al-qaeda-kill-americans/)

Quote
OWN GOALS
How Assad Staged al Qaeda Bombings

The Syrian regime’s collusion with the terrorists it says it is fighting goes back a decade, and it wasn’t above killing its own people to make a point.
Roy Gutman
Updated 04.13.17 12:34PM ET / Published 12.02.16 1:00AM ET

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-assad-staged-al-qaeda-bombings (https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-assad-staged-al-qaeda-bombings)

Everyone says Assad is a real bad guy, so this decision-making, possibly pushed our allies or former allies into the side that helped killed Americans.

Brilliant.

You want someone who really thrives on chaos, it might be someone more like Assad but it backfired big time and if the Russians and Iranians and Hezbollah did not go in, the Fundamentalist terrorists would have won.

@Right_in_Virginia
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 10:22:10 AM
Quote
   Lindsey Graham Accuses Trump of Making a 'Huge Obama-like Mistake'
Cortney O'Brien |   @obrienc2|   Posted: Dec 19, 2018 10:48 AM

President Trump may have temporarily lost the faith of Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) Wednesday after announcing the withdrawal of troops from Syria. Graham, who was one of the president's loudest defenders this past year, accused Trump of making an "Obama-like mistake." He suggested that the U.S. is not as far along as it thinks in its effort to defeat ISIS and he offered a preview of the potential consequences of a military withdrawal.

Read more at: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/cortneyobrien/2018/12/19/lindsey-graham-accuses-trump-of-making-an-obamalike-mistake-n2537773

This is all, a lot like Obama did in 2011 and an act which forth, Trump called Clinton and Obama "founders of ISIS".


Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 10:39:50 AM
I am inclined to agree. It should have appeared Vlad Tepes had returned.

@Smokin Joe

It ain't pretty,but like many things in life it is soooo true. These people aren't fighting because of political views,which can often be changed. They are fighting for religious views they have been programmed to believe to be the unquestioned truth since the day they were born. The only way to end a religious war with the minimum amount of bloodshed is to get to the religious leaders and make them understand that THEY will be the focus of our anger if they don't call off the dogs,and that it may take several VERY unpleasant days before they die if they refuse.

It's either that,or swim in blood.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 10:45:03 AM
Tom, we're not going to stay in Syria as a private police force for the Kurds.  The only other way to make the Kurds, and apparently Lindsey Graham, happy is for the United States to help the Kurds form their own independent state.  And we're not going to do this either. 

Although you keep overlooking it, the "why" we're not going to provide this help to the Kurds is vital to understanding and accepting that our military assistance has reasonable, appropriate and necessary limitations:

Quote
The rejiggering of the Middle East map would require more than the paltry American force currently fighting alongside the Kurds of northern Syria.

It not only would require the United States to understand the various tribal and regional dynamics between the numerous Kurdish communities throughout the Mideast but would also mean that any potential Kurdish state would have to be cleaved from Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran.

This could never be achieved peacefully. It would entail some degree of violence and inevitably invoke ethno-religious tribal backlash against the United States at precisely the moment America does not need that headache.



Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 10:45:56 AM
   
WOW! A commie Dim Senator from the northeast wrote that?

Ahhh,shocked! SHOCKED,AH TELLS YA!

Why,ifn ah didn't know betta,ah would think there is a election comin' up!

That does it for me! I don't know about the rest of you,but I am going to vote a straight Dim ticket in order to save the Muslim unicorns and keep them from being ground up and sold for dog food by those wascally Republicans!

BTW,no offense to the "good" Republicans that always vote with the Dims in a pinch. Those of you who vote for them know who you are.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 10:53:57 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11198326/Who-are-the-Kurds-A-users-guide-to-Kurdish-politics.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11198326/Who-are-the-Kurds-A-users-guide-to-Kurdish-politics.html)

This article from the Daily Telegraph explains pretty well how not all of these Kurds are PKK/YPG affiliated, I have heard that the largest Kurd party is not aligned with the more extremist sect that may be the ones who want to carve out a Kurdistan just like all Latinos here, by far, do not care for parts of the USA to be returned to Mexico.

Tom, we're not going to stay in Syria as a private police force for the Kurds.  The only other way to make the Kurds, and apparently Lindsey Graham, happy is for the United States to help the Kurds form their own independent state.  And we're not going to do this either. 

Although you keep overlooking it, the "why" we're not going to provide this help to the Kurds is vital to understanding and accepting that our military assistance has reasonable, appropriate and necessary limitations:

So, your assertion is built on a problematic assumption that this is the aim of all Kurds, they are not all fighting for this.

@Right_in_Virginia
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 10:57:00 AM
We're also not going to remain in Syria to prevent ISIS from reappearing.  It's now up to the region to take care of this.  We've done all we can and all we will do.

Besides, my money is on the square that says the third iteration of ISIS is already underway.  Turkey, Syria, SA and Jordan should be prepared to knock it out early.

And Graham should know better.

Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:02:49 AM
We're also not going to remain in Syria to prevent ISIS from reappearing.  It's now up to the region to take care of this.  We've done all we can and all we will do.

Besides, my money is on the square that says the third iteration of ISIS is already underway.  Turkey, Syria, SA and Jordan should be prepared to knock it out early.

And Graham should know better.

And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.

Obama should have known better, Trump should have known better.

You break it, you buy it.

Great, pushing our allies who helped defeat a great evil in ISIS into the hands of someone who killed Americans.

Now, an argument that might wash is that the Kurds would not come to an agreement on the safe-zone, that might be the crux of the natter, not these other theories.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:16:06 AM
This is actually a truth, some have said that the Kurds in Syria are not those in Turkey, I've given Turkey the benefit of the doubt that they could cross over the border but I'm not sure if this is mostly a truth `100%. One would have to figure that some might be there.
Title: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: mystery-ak on October 14, 2019, 11:16:19 AM
Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants

Monday, 14 October 2019 10:54 AM



Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar said on Monday Syrian Kurdish YPG fighters had emptied a jail holding Islamic State prisoners in a part of Syria where Ankara is mounting an offensive, and that the prisoners there had been abducted.

Turkey launched a cross-border operation against the YPG militia in northeastern Syria last week, after U.S. President Donald Trump decided to withdraw forces from two posts in the area in a move that drew strong international criticism.

The Turkish assault has prompted alarm that it could allow Islamic State (ISIS) militants to escape Kurdish-run prisons in northern Syria and regroup. Ankara has dismissed those concerns.

Turkey's stated objective is to clear its southern frontier region of the YPG, which it views as a terrorist organization, and form a "safe zone" 30 km (20 miles) into Syrian territory where it wants to settle millions of Syrian refugees. Ankara also pledged to take responsibility for ISIS militants within the "safe zone," but said it would not be accountable for others.

Speaking to reporters in Ankara on Monday, Akar said the YPG had emptied the only Islamic State prison that Turkish forces had so far reached in the envisaged "safe zone" area, and that the inmates had already been removed.

more
https://www.newsmax.com/headline/syria-kurds-prison-islamic-state/2019/10/14/id/936983/ (https://www.newsmax.com/headline/syria-kurds-prison-islamic-state/2019/10/14/id/936983/)
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 11:20:11 AM
And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.

ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: jpsb on October 14, 2019, 11:23:03 AM
Ah, here you go, @Right_in_Virginia.  Here are your Trump promises.  This is what he said in January:


And later that same month:

Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:23:50 AM
ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.

The statement was not "ISIS is defeated", it's whether ISIS is 100% defeated, good, we agree that that is a false statement.

Deflection.

Missioned Accomplished - George Bush, Barak Obama, Donald Trump
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: DCPatriot on October 14, 2019, 11:24:01 AM
ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.

And let's not forget the vegeanceful Baathists who went postal on supporters of the USA after the fall of Saddam.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: kidd on October 14, 2019, 11:26:10 AM
There was never any kind of declaration of war from Congress or anything resembling invocation of the War Powers Act by Trump.

As such, there was never any kind of military goal to be achieved.

Congress has essentially let Trump have his own private military force. The military can come and go as Trump pleases, because Congress lets him.

If Lindsey Graham want the US Military to protect the Kurds, then he has the power to initiate a declaration of war that Trump would have to comply with, if passed.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:26:19 AM
This woman who was killed might not even have been born in Turkey, anyway, she belonged to the Syrian Future Party and she was a Syrian politician:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hevrin_Khalaf

So, not all Kurds might be envisioning this greater Kurdistan idea. 
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:29:46 AM
There was never any kind of declaration of war from Congress or anything resembling invocation of the War Powers Act by Trump.

As such, there was never any kind of military goal to be achieved.

Congress has essentially let Trump have his own private military force. The military can come and go as Trump pleases, because Congress lets him.

If Lindsey Graham want the US Military to protect the Kurds, then he has the power to initiate a declaration of war that Trump would have to comply with, if passed.

SDF was formed in 2015, Obama was president.

ISIS rose to power because of Obama's mismanagement of the Iraq war, things were pacified, "Mission Accomplished".  That proved hollow.

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 11:33:47 AM
The statement was not "ISIS is defeated", it's whether ISIS is 100% defeated, good, we agree that that is a false statement.

Don't start splitting hairs, Tom.  ISIS is defeated, even as some cockroaches always survive.  If you expect the US to stay in Syria with a can of Raid .... you're losing it.   :shrug:
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: jpsb on October 14, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
Tom, we're not going to stay in Syria as a private police force for the Kurds.  The only other way to make the Kurds, and apparently Lindsey Graham, happy is for the United States to help the Kurds form their own independent state.  And we're not going to do this either. 

Although you keep overlooking it, the "why" we're not going to provide this help to the Kurds is vital to understanding and accepting that our military assistance has reasonable, appropriate and necessary limitations:

@Right_in_Virginia

There is a difference between keeping the peace and endless wars. Trump has no problem renting US armed forces to Saudi Arabia. US forces in Syria were preventing Turkey from attacking our ally the Kurds. Do tell
when is Trump going to pull our troops out of S. Korea, Germany, Japan or any of the hundred other place they
are stationed at? Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners and EVERYONE but you knows it. No one is ever going
to trust the USA or Trump ever again.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:35:42 AM
What I'm hearing this morning is maybe the Kurds, whomever made up the negotiators, just might have been stubborn about the "Safe Zone", "Buffer Zone",

Turkey wanted 30 Kms in, Kurds, only 10 Kms, Kurds couldn't wouldn't bend on the negotiations.

https://ahvalnews.com/safe-zone/turkey-not-satisfied-us-proposal-safe-zone-northern-syria 

This seems to be a part of it at least, whatever the specifics.

On the other hand, what the Turks are doing to the Kurds in Turkey, well, you know, I don't know.

The Kurds have their own party over there and some are in congress but other reading and things I heard might suggest some minimal rights in all of this, not being able to teach their language, something like that. What some call apartheid, I don't know the situation.

And Brett McGurk, he's the one who apparently helped negotiate the SDF agreement where the PKK got in there.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:40:05 AM
Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
Turkish officials today released a footage from a prison in Tal Abyad, they claim SDF released all ISIS suspects because they didn’t see any forensic evidence suggesting there was a breakout

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183756694280646656

Quote
Lara Seligman
@laraseligman
Senior U.S. administration official says there's no evidence the Kurds released ISIS prisoners.

"That has enraged our forces in Syria," the official says. "Incredibly reckless and dishonest thing to say."

SDC confirms: "We didn't release any prisoners and will never do that."

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status/1183755889771188224

So, we do not know the truth. It is an allegation.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 11:43:47 AM
Anyway, if Trump's mindset was to let the military do their job as in fighting ISIS or using drones in  Yemen or what ever, why is Trump making the decision about withdrawing these troops then? It's obvious, in these instances, the military does not care for this.

Yes, one could say, it is in the interest of the military to stay in these countries or speak of the military industrial complex, I'd gather.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: jpsb on October 14, 2019, 11:44:19 AM

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.


 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: kidd on October 14, 2019, 11:52:44 AM
SDF was formed in 2015, Obama was president.

ISIS rose to power because of Obama's mismanagement of the Iraq war, things were pacified, "Mission Accomplished".  That proved hollow.

US policy should not be to go into places, mess things up and then leave.
No disagreement.

But there should have been some goal established by a formal declaration that can be traced back to Constitutional authority.
Instead, we're left with a lot of actions based on what "feels right". We went into Syria because it felt right. Now we are leaving because Trump feels its right.
And Lindsey Graham, who has the power to initiate formal military action, has instead ran to the press to whine.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: jpsb on October 14, 2019, 11:55:04 AM
Turkey is a known ally of ISIS, if anyone released ISIS figthers it's Turkey. Don't believe a damn thing either
Erdogan or Trump says about northern Syria or the Kurds. I do believe the Kurds allowed ISIS followers (women
and children) to leave a camp Turkey was bombarding.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 12:09:10 PM
No disagreement.

But there should have been some goal established by a formal declaration that can be traced back to Constitutional authority.
Instead, we're left with a lot of actions based on what "feels right". We went into Syria because it felt right. Now we are leaving because Trump feels its right.
And Lindsey Graham, who has the power to initiate formal military action, has instead ran to the press to whine.

I'd disagree with our going into Syria because it felt right, we went in because ISIS was slaughtering people including Christians, Assad was too busy fighting regular rebels, from my understanding and this may be a bit of dated information, Russia and Assad did not fight ISIS that much. In fact, at times, they may have been opportune with them to fight the rebels.  ISIS rose at least, in part,  because Obama decided to withdraw practically all US troops out of Iraq in 2011. ISIS spread their Caliphate in both Iraq and Syria.

Bush warned against sectarianism, that is what we got.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 12:12:03 PM
Now, this may not be significant and we may be saying we are withdrawing troops out of Syria but the fact remains, we will maintain one installation there, mainly to watch the Iranians, it has been said in the past:

"Only a small garrison of U.S. troops will remain at al-Tanf near Syria's border with Iraq and Jordan."
https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria (https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria)

Also, except for this place, we may be moving towards a full withdrawal but so far, I thought, it's basically been moving troops around in Syria, so this doesn't appear to be this "Bring Them Home" motif, we have heard about.  Per the story, we may be now, withdrawing, it is a fluid situation.

Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: XenaLee on October 14, 2019, 12:18:15 PM
Now, this may not be significant and we may be saying we are withdrawing troops out of Syria but the fact remains, we will maintain one installation there, mainly to watch the Iranians, it has been said in the past:

"Only a small garrison of U.S. troops will remain at al-Tanf near Syria's border with Iraq and Jordan."
https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria (https://www.nhpr.org/post/endangered-turkish-offensive-us-troops-prepare-evacuate-syria)

Also, except for this place, we may be moving towards a full withdrawal but so far, I thought, it's basically been moving troops around in Syria, so this doesn't appear to be this "Bring Them Home" motif, we have heard about.  Per the story, we may be now, withdrawing, it is a fluid situation.

No!!!  You don't say.

You mean.... the kneejerk propagandists were wrong?   

I'm shocked, I tell ya!    (I know, I know, done to death, but sue me)
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 12:25:23 PM
  @Right_in_Virginia
There is a difference between keeping the peace and endless wars. Trump has no problem renting US armed forces to Saudi Arabia. US forces in Syria were preventing Turkey from attacking our ally the Kurds. Do tell.

Oh, dear Mother of God, it's like talking to a wall.  Read the article, not just the headline, and educate yourself on what our "alliance" with the Kurds was.

Quote
when is Trump going to pull our troops out of S. Korea, Germany, Japan or any of the hundred other place they are stationed at?

Please stop mixing kumquats and sourdough bread.  There's more than enough drama and confusion in the world.

Quote
Erdogan took Trump to the cleaners and EVERYONE but you knows it.

The Kurds have now given up the fight against Syria for regional independence and will fight alongside their nation's military to push back the Turks.  The Kurds are now safer than before, and the Syrian government has one more militant group off its back.  The world is one step closer to an end to this long civil war.

Turkey will be stopped by Syria/Russia/Kurds and, if necessary, US sanctions.  Erdogan has stepped in one huge mess that will not end well for him.  It shouldn't surprise us if/when the Turks replace him --- making the whole world happy.   Seems to me if this should come to pass 888blackhat   Erdogan will have been played as a useful idiot.

Quote
No one is ever going to trust the USA or Trump ever again.

Again with the drama  *****rollingeyes*****     Most everyone, especially in the Middle East understands what's happening here ---Syria is being returned to Syria.   (And another Obama legacy notch is turning to dust.)
Title: SDF to be 'abolished' under Kurdish-Syria deal: reports (autonomy granted to area)
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 12:43:39 PM
Quote
SDF to be 'abolished' under Kurdish-Syria deal: reports
The New Arab

The deal between the Kurdish authority and Bashar al-Assad's regime would allegedly give the Kurds full autonomy and safeguard their rights under a new Syrian constitution, according to the reports.

In return, the Kurdish and Arab fighters would coordinate with the regime to confront Turkey who have launched an offensive with Syrian rebel fighters into SDF territories.

"Within one month Kurdish leadership with start to take up some official roles within the current Syrian government to ease the transition period of N. #Syria until an new constitution/government is formed in the future," Syria analyst Danny Makki tweeted on Monday.

Read more at: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/14/sdf-to-be-abolished-under-kurdish-syria-deal-reports (https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2019/10/14/sdf-to-be-abolished-under-kurdish-syria-deal-reports)

See, apparently, there is already a sort of Kurd homeland in Syria, it's called "ROJAVA" (obviously, an old map as ISIS has been rolled back but ROJAVA is in the area shown, see wkiipedia article link below).

(https://21stcenturywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/1-rojava.png)

So, if this report is true, it's good news... too bad, we've probably got them mad at us! ALSO, I hope and somewhat assume, the Christians will be treated well in this. They kind of get along with the Kurds but there are the odd stories of friction between them.

Rojava flag, see, none of that Communist stuff on this, colors are like Lithuania's at that I believe.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Rojava.svg/1200px-Flag_of_Rojava.svg.png)

Rojava:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava)

Even reporter Jenan Moussa seems to be mentioning this:

Quote
Jenan Moussa
@jenanmoussa
Farewell Rojava...
(with video)
https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183690152826290177Jenan (https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183690152826290177Jenan) Moussa


So, hopefully, this might be a positive, you don't know. We are almost into 2020, maybe that area can finally get up to date, actually, they were saying this area was fairly peaceful because of the SDF.

Could the Russians have influenced this some? I think maybe. Maybe and apparently, there are some lines of communication between the USA and Russia over there.  Looks a bit positive. Sad for any civilians who died these past several days.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Absalom on October 14, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
Interesting and often provocative discussion, raising a coupla observations:
*  our rash entry into the Great War internationalized our political focus
    and reversing that, a century later, has become virtually impossible.
*  paraphrasing Lord Palmerston's sage advice, we need to focus on our
    interests and dispense w/the 'allies and friends' malarkey.
   A query; how many allies/friends did Imperial Rome and the British Empire have?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 02:09:55 PM
Quote
NORTH PRESS AGENCY
@NPA_SY
#Breaking
Russian forces bombed from al-Farat village west of Manbij with heavy weapons, #Turkish-backed armed opposition groups after an attempt by the latter to infiltrate into the village
#NPA
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG2ynuiWwAAVdvI?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/NPA_SY/status/1183798691850784769

It seems pretty important and one can't help but say "good" on reading this, so not an airstrike but with heavy weapons apparently.

Yeah, they need to set up a no-fly zone to stop the Turks, that hasn't happened  yet and the Turks are apparently using some drones over there.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 02:17:38 PM
Time for Putin to pick a side, and it looks like it's Syria. 
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: kidd on October 14, 2019, 02:31:00 PM
I'd disagree with our going into Syria because it felt right, we went in because ISIS was slaughtering people including Christians, Assad was too busy fighting regular rebels, from my understanding and this may be a bit of dated information, Russia and Assad did not fight ISIS that much. In fact, at times, they may have been opportune with them to fight the rebels.  ISIS rose at least, in part,  because Obama decided to withdraw practically all US troops out of Iraq in 2011. ISIS spread their Caliphate in both Iraq and Syria.

Bush warned against sectarianism, that is what we got.
i
All good reasons to go into Syria. But its still a "feels right" reason, as you feel that it was right to use the military to correct this Obama mistake (and I don't disagree that it was a mistake) and to stop the attrocities. However, there is virtually zero American interests in Syria, other than keeping Russia from having control of the region. We are not the world's police force. If we were, I could argue that the atrocities committed by Boko Haram in Nigeria and Al-Shabab in Somalia (and in the Indian Ocean) to be as bad as ISIS in Syria - and we should risk our people's lives in those areas as well.

It would have been better (and Constitutional) to invoke the War Powers act and make formal reports to Congress. Then there would have been a mandatory objective that Trump would have had to meet rather than his feeling that we've done enough and we can leave.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: berdie on October 14, 2019, 04:23:47 PM
ISIS is defeated, Tom. Any mopping up of the leftovers in Syria is now in the capable hands of Syrian Armed Forces and the Kurds.

But whack a Shia / whack a Sunni has been the regional sport for centuries and will continue until one or the other side is dead.



ISIS will never be defeated. Much like the dragon's teeth they will always regrow. Sadly, we (the US) are now involved.
Title: Statement from President Donald J. Trump Regarding Turkey’s Actions in Northeast Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 04:34:00 PM
Statement from President Donald J. Trump Regarding Turkey’s Actions in Northeast Syria
Oct 14, 2019, Twitter, https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1183833640507269120

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG3SarFWsAUW-Ed.jpg)
Title: Re: Statement from President Donald J. Trump Regarding Turkey’s Actions in Northeast Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 04:39:35 PM
Erdogan's done.
Turkey's continued slot in NATO is at risk.
Compromised on the troops, but they're in the South, not NE Syria so the Kurds stay with the agreement reached last night. -- Controls the Kurds' (and Graham's) expectations of what the Kurds will and will not receive from the US.

Next stop should we pull our nukes out of Turkey?

Hell of a day in the cesspool. 









Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 04:44:38 PM
Quote
David French
@DavidAFrench
Ten days ago our nation enjoyed an alliance with the Kurds and a strained but longstanding alliance with the Turks. Now, the Kurds are fleeing to Assad, and our relationship with Turkey is at a terrible low. It’s actually _hard_ to be that bad, that fast, but Trump did it.
12:53 PM · Oct 14, 2019·Twitter for iPad

https://twitter.com/DavidAFrench/status/1183803049233375232 (https://twitter.com/DavidAFrench/status/1183803049233375232)

Quote
M. Zuhdi Jasser زهدي جاسر
@DrZuhdiJasser
·
15m
I’m sorry, but “increasing tariffs on steel from Turkey” does not a sanction make.

Real sanctions are economic isolation- full stop. Just ask Assad, Iran, or NK.

Anything short is likely a cost #Erdogan already factored into his calculus as an acceptable cost of aggression.

https://twitter.com/DrZuhdiJasser/status/1183840912750731264 (https://twitter.com/DrZuhdiJasser/status/1183840912750731264)

This also discusses Trump imposing sanctions which as Zuhdi Jasser points out, really aren't the full-kinds of Sanctions North Korea and such have.

It seems too late to reverse Trump's actions, what is done is done.
Quote
Nancy Pelosi says she and Lindsey Graham agree on resolution to block Trump on Syria

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says she and GOP Senator Lindsey Graham have agreed Congress needs a resolution to "overturn" President Trump's decision to hastily pull troops from northern Syria, and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell released a statement saying he's "gravely concerned" by what's happening in Syria "and by our nation's apparent response so far."

Later Monday, the president said he plans to issue an executive order imposing sanctions on Turkey over its invasion of Syria, but has not yet imposed such sanctions.

"I am fully prepared to swiftly destroy Turkey's economy if Turkish leaders continue down this dangerous and destructive path," the president wrote in a lengthy statement.

Read more at: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sanctions-on-turkey-nancy-pelosi-lindsey-graham-agree-on-resolution-to-block-trump-on-syria-tweet-2019-10-14/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sanctions-on-turkey-nancy-pelosi-lindsey-graham-agree-on-resolution-to-block-trump-on-syria-tweet-2019-10-14/)
Quote
Rep. Michael Waltz says US troop pullout from Syria sets conditions for 'ISIS 2.0'
Joshua Nelson

Republican Rep. Michael Waltz said on Monday that President Trump’s decision to withdraw U.S. troops in northeastern Syria is unfolding too soon and creates wars instead of ending them.

“We’ve set the conditions for ISIS 2.0,” Waltz told “America’s Newsroom.” “Except we won’t have any local allies to fight them again.”

He added, “We’re repeating the mistakes of the Obama administration which pulled out of Iraq to soon and led to all of this in the first place."

Read more at: https://www.foxnews.com/media/rep-michael-waltz-says-u-s-troops-pullout-from-syria-sets-conditions-for-isis-2-0 (https://www.foxnews.com/media/rep-michael-waltz-says-u-s-troops-pullout-from-syria-sets-conditions-for-isis-2-0)

He was on the radio news, he's from Florida. I'm not familiar with him.
Title: Re: Statement from President Donald J. Trump Regarding Turkey’s Actions in Northeast Syria
Post by: Absalom on October 14, 2019, 05:03:26 PM
Don't forget it's Monday and there's 7 hours left; so stay tuned!!!
Time to rename State, the Roller Coaster Dept !
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 05:07:59 PM
Quote
Jenan Moussa
@jenanmoussa
What an incredible video.

Syrian army is seen passing U.S. troops on a main road near Kobani as American forces leave the area.

U.S. out, Syria/Russia in.

@akhbar

https://mobile.twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/1183849840716996610

That @akhbar has to do with the news agency she reports for.  Anyway, yes, it is an odd video.

Pentagon blaming Turk side for releasing ISIS prisoners, hard to deny Turkey not in cahoots now...even if maybe it was the militias who did this.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 14, 2019, 05:50:23 PM
This combined blood being shed is why I feel my true friend on TBR is so bloody pissed at Trump right now.  Together we've shed blood ridding ourselves of the scourge of Daesh, and I would be more than a little upset at seeing my friends betrayed, as appears to be what's happening.

It goes on the negative side of the Trump Balance Sheet.

QFT
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 14, 2019, 05:51:25 PM
Time for Putin to pick a side, and it looks like it's Syria.

It was a no brainer...Russia had been army in arm with Syria for years.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 06:15:55 PM
This combined blood being shed is why I feel my true friend on TBR is so bloody pissed at Trump right now.  Together we've shed blood ridding ourselves of the scourge of Daesh, and I would be more than a little upset at seeing my friends betrayed, as appears to be what's happening.

It goes on the negative side of the Trump Balance Sheet.

@Cyber Liberty

I understand why you feel that way,but the way *I* see it you and your friends should have never been put in a position to bleed there to start with. WE might have been THEIR allies,but THEY were NEVER OUR ALLIES. We offered,and they took,and who can blame them for that?

The FACTS are that nothing we can ever do in Muslim nation will ever bring us any good will. The cynical part of me things what the US government was really seeking wasn't good will,but profits for the people that own defense industry supply businesses,and their stockholders.

I see no good reason for any American military member to be killed or even get a hangnail while serving to defend nations that despise us and want to see us destroyed.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 06:22:36 PM

Nancy Pelosi says she and Lindsey Graham agree on resolution to block Trump on Syria


@TomSea

You can always count on Lady Lindsey bending over,flipping up his skirt,and gabbing his ankles when "push comes to shove".

Every day and in every way I am becoming more and more convinces that Lady Lindsey is trying to position herself as an alternative to Trump in 2020.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 14, 2019, 07:10:28 PM
Dear Ms. Pelousy:

A joint resolution of the Congress, if passed, needs approval from POTUS.  And you've a snowball's chance of getting that.  So if you really want to stop the CIC, declare war on Syria.

Sincerely,
A Proud Deplorable   :patriot:
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Fishrrman on October 14, 2019, 07:28:53 PM
TomSea wrote:
"And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.
Obama should have known better, Trump should have known better."


Tom, it is YOU who should "know better".

isis are but this season's bad apples that have fallen from islam's tree.
Before them was the taliban
And al queda
And many others before them.

Even if we were to kill every single one of them, there will be "a new crop" that springs up to take their place soon afterwards.

And this isn't going to change until we "cut down the tree".
You DO know what "that tree" is, don't you, Tom...?
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: libertybele on October 14, 2019, 07:41:42 PM
TomSea wrote:
"And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.
Obama should have known better, Trump should have known better."


Tom, it is YOU who should "know better".

isis are but this season's bad apples that have fallen from islam's tree.
Before them was the taliban
And al queda
And many others before them.

Even if we were to kill every single one of them, there will be "a new crop" that springs up to take their place soon afterwards.

And this isn't going to change until we "cut down the tree".
You DO know what "that tree" is, don't you, Tom...?

Only problem @Fishrrman is the "new crop" will spring up on our soil, and with our southern border still wide open, it won't be long.  The ignorance and/or arrogance of Trump stating and thinking that ISIS will escape to Europe is absurd.  For the U.S. to not learn from Europe's mistakes is really alarming.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: Fishrrman on October 14, 2019, 07:51:31 PM
We should get the Christians out of there. Get them somewhere safe.
(the Kurds ARE NOT Christians).

As far as the rest of 'em go... they are muslims.
Let them kill as many of each other as they can.
Turks... Kurds... Syrians... Iranians... Afghans... Saudis... Somalians... whatever.

The fewer muslims in the world, the better place it will become.
That's the best "policy" for Western survival.
Title: Re: Esper: Turkey 'appears to be' committing war crimes in northern Syria
Post by: libertybele on October 14, 2019, 08:22:11 PM
We should get the Christians out of there. Get them somewhere safe.
(the Kurds ARE NOT Christians).

As far as the rest of 'em go... they are muslims.
Let them kill as many of each other as they can.
Turks... Kurds... Syrians... Iranians... Afghans... Saudis... Somalians... whatever.

The fewer muslims in the world, the better place it will become.
That's the best "policy" for Western survival.

Get the 'Christians' somewhere safe.  Other than Glenn Beck and the Nazarene fund I don't know of any organization that is getting the Christians out or temporarily relocating them.  Since Trump opted for withdrawal some are now being killed that were relocated, returning only to either be slaughtered or having to relocate again.

Secondly, with Christian refugees on the move, how is anyone going to tell who is who?  We should take a cue from Europe as many refugees entered under the guise of being Christian that were not.  Now Europe has been inundated with terrorists.  France, Germany, Belgium, Denmark, are all having huge problems ... some are building walls now. 

Right around the time Trump was elected he announced that refugees would not be accepted or allowed in from areas of known terrorists.  Where does he think all of these displaced 'Christians' are going to go??  All into Europe??  Heck we haven't been able to vet those that have been pouring over our southern border in the past 6 months -- now this.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: libertybele on October 14, 2019, 08:28:20 PM
Turkey is a known ally of ISIS, if anyone released ISIS figthers it's Turkey. Don't believe a damn thing either
Erdogan or Trump says about northern Syria or the Kurds. I do believe the Kurds allowed ISIS followers (women
and children) to leave a camp Turkey was bombarding.

Innocent civilians are being killed. Regardless of who freed ISIS militants that fact is they are on the move again, and ultimately it is Trump's decision that created this upheaval. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 08:38:01 PM
I understand why you feel that way,but the way *I* see it you and your friends should have never been put in a position to bleed there to start with. WE might have been THEIR allies,but THEY were NEVER OUR ALLIES. We offered,and they took,and who can blame them for that?


@sneakypete
THAT'S RIGHT. We should not have been there in the first place. But we ARE there. And being there, we have made commitments. To just roll it up and walk off without an exit strategy, leaving our erstwhile allies to a bloodbath is simply unconscionable.

I don't care that Tumpy wants out. That's fine. HOW he gets out is the problem. This action is morally and strategically impaired, and that I think is why the Military folks don't like it.

I can see that, plain as day.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 08:40:10 PM
Not likely.  The Kurds would have been the first and most convenient target for any ISIS fighters upon escape/being released.  Obvious Turkish propaganda.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
Dear Ms. Pelousy:

A joint resolution of the Congress, if passed, needs approval from POTUS.  And you've a snowball's chance of getting that.  So if you really want to stop the CIC, declare war on Syria.

Sincerely,
A Proud Deplorable   :patriot:

Mitch said today and he said last week, they already have a super-majority to pass these bills.  He said that about last Thursday and he's since reiterated this.

Funny thing, the Democratic system!  :patriot:

McConnell, who did not mention Trump by name, said Monday that the withdrawal of troops would not help the U.S.'s long-term interest in the region. He reiterated that earlier this year a bipartisan supermajority of senators supported legislation warning against the early withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria and Afghanistan.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/14/mitch-mcconnell-syria-conflict-046690 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/14/mitch-mcconnell-syria-conflict-046690)

@Right_in_Virginia

Oh well, Trump can probably count on Rand Paul and Mike Lee and Tulsi Gabbard in the House.

SUPER MAJORITY BABY! WOOO!

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcoe98Y8BP1rb2p1xo1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 08:46:22 PM
@sneakypete
THAT'S RIGHT. We should not have been there in the first place. But we ARE there. And being there, we have made commitments. To just roll it up and walk off without an exit strategy, leaving our erstwhile allies to a bloodbath is simply unconscionable.

I don't care that Tumpy wants out. That's fine. HOW he gets out is the problem. This action is morally and strategically impaired, and that I think is why the Military folks don't like it.

I can see that, plain as day.

Can we get some "Peace with honor?"
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 14, 2019, 08:49:24 PM
@sneakypete
THAT'S RIGHT. We should not have been there in the first place. But we ARE there. And being there, we have made commitments. To just roll it up and walk off without an exit strategy, leaving our erstwhile allies to a bloodbath is simply unconscionable.

I don't care that Tumpy wants out. That's fine. HOW he gets out is the problem. This action is morally and strategically impaired, and that I think is why the Military folks don't like it.

I can see that, plain as day.

Getting the hell out as fast as possible seems like a sound exit strategy to me. I think Trump wants Erdogan to go full muzzie jihad so he can lay down some serious sanctions. And that may include giving up part of turkey to the Kurds.

Our only reason to be in Syria was to play F***-F*** games with the Russians and Iranians.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 09:01:26 PM
Not likely.  The Kurds would have been the first and most convenient target for any ISIS fighters upon escape/being released.  Obvious Turkish propaganda.

Exactly, and now, it sounds like the State Department or Pentagon officials do say Turkish-backed militias did it. Maybe those anonymous sources but the story is out there.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 09:11:55 PM
Getting the hell out as fast as possible seems like a sound exit strategy to me. I think Trump wants Erdogan to go full muzzie jihad so he can lay down some serious sanctions. And that may include giving up part of turkey to the Kurds.

Our only reason to be in Syria was to play F***-F*** games with the Russians and Iranians.

If that were the case, the Military rank and file would be for it.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 09:12:26 PM
Can we get some "Peace with honor?"

Not like this we can't.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 09:21:25 PM
Not like this we can't.

Hint:  Short of somebody's unconditional surrender, there never is.  It was folly in the 60's, and the world hasn't changed that much.  Anytime we get into an unholy alliance, this is bound to happen.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: Jazzhead on October 14, 2019, 09:24:01 PM
I am inclined to believe the Turks.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 09:27:17 PM
I am inclined to believe the Turks.

Really?  The Kurds released exactly the prisoners most likely to kill Kurds and think of Turks as allies?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 09:27:58 PM
Hint:  Short of somebody's unconditional surrender, there never is.  It was folly in the 60's, and the world hasn't changed that much.  Anytime we get into an unholy alliance, this is bound to happen.

I agree with that, more or less. But there is no excuse for dropping the ball and abandoning an ally.
No excuse at all. That was, is, and always will be dishonorable.

Better to have never engaged at all? Arguably true.
But once engaged... Honor dictates an ext that will reasonably ensure a fair footing for the ally we leave holding the bag. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 09:31:21 PM
Is the White House in damage control now? It seems Pence is out there on this.
Quote

Pence headed to Turkey as U.S. calls for ceasefire in Syria


Published: Oct 14, 2019 8:19 p.m. ET

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pence-headed-to-turkey-as-us-calls-for-cease-fire-in-syria-2019-10-14?mod=mw_latestnews (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pence-headed-to-turkey-as-us-calls-for-cease-fire-in-syria-2019-10-14?mod=mw_latestnews)

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1183885644642377729 (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1183885644642377729)
And Pence made a statement too, others can trace it down, it's at this account.

Yes, all we can hope is to try to salvage something out of this mess.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 09:32:21 PM
I agree with that, more or less. But there is no excuse for dropping the ball and abandoning an ally.
No excuse at all. That was, is, and always will be dishonorable.

Better to have never engaged at all? Arguably true.
But once engaged... Honor dictates an ext that will reasonably ensure a fair footing for the ally we leave holding the bag. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

And when, exactly, did entanglement with Syrian begin?  There was a "red line" involved.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 09:38:04 PM
@sneakypete

I heard earlier, someone say what will the US soldiers do with our vehicles:

Quote
NORTH PRESS AGENCY
@NPA_SY
#Breaking
Military source to North-Press: #US forces destroy their military fortifications and vehicles in al-Tabqa in preparation for withdrawal

https://twitter.com/NPA_SY/status/1183893552784465920

What do you... or in fact, anyone think of that!!??

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Hoodat on October 14, 2019, 09:38:45 PM
What is the chance of Turkish troops eventually lining up at the Israeli border?  Bringing back the Turkish caliphate.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 09:41:42 PM
@sneakypete

I heard earlier, someone say what will the US soldiers do with our vehicles:

What do you... or in fact, anyone think of that!!??

Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 09:47:43 PM
And when, exactly, did entanglement with Syrian begin?  There was a "red line" involved.

That doesn't matter to me. We are there NOW. Dishonoring our troops is no way to leave.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 09:48:29 PM
What is the chance of Turkish troops eventually lining up at the Israeli border?  Bringing back the Turkish caliphate.

Eventually 100%.
It is written.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 09:49:23 PM
Quote
Trump: Let 'Napoleon Bonaparte' rescue Kurds
[AFP]  AFP•October 14, 2019

(https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/apWyUNxE11W0vs4UeqiZgw--~B/aD01MDY7dz03Njg7c209MTthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/afp.com/6526ae719f4f93936878e252c3d363bf66dee3eb.jpg)

Washington (AFP) - Donald Trump suggested Monday that Syria's formerly US-allied Kurds could look to 19th century French emperor Napoleon Bonaparte for protection after the US president ordered the departure of nearly 1,000 US troops from the country.

Turkey was threatening to invade northeastern Syria after launching a military assault on the Kurds last week, leaving more than 300 dead on both sides and sending 160,000 refugees fleeing.

"Anyone who wants to assist Syria in protecting the Kurds is good with me, whether it is Russia, China, or Napoleon Bonaparte. I hope they all do great, we are 7,000 miles away!" Trump wrote on Twitter.

Read more at: https://news.yahoo.com/trump-let-napoleon-bonaparte-rescue-kurds-204450271.html;_ylt=AwrC0F9Y36RdrzAAwwPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTEyODAwZXF2BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjc1MDZfMQRzZWMDc3I- (https://news.yahoo.com/trump-let-napoleon-bonaparte-rescue-kurds-204450271.html;_ylt=AwrC0F9Y36RdrzAAwwPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTEyODAwZXF2BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjc1MDZfMQRzZWMDc3I-)

Maybe they are reigning Trump in, about last Wednesday or so, I read an article that he was starting to get too wild in his conduct and behavior,  maybe so, I'm just saying what is going on.

 RTs≠ endorsement as they say.

Pretty silly thing to say, pretty insensitive to many people. WTH??
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use.

 goopo

Thanks!
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 09:58:45 PM
That doesn't matter to me. We are there NOW. Dishonoring our troops is no way to leave.

In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 10:30:53 PM
If that were the case, the Military rank and file would be for it.

@roamer_1

ROFLMAO! Nothing could be further from the truth. Professional soldiers are professional soldiers because they LOVE that bleep! Or probably closer to the truth,are adrenaline junkies.

 I volunteered for every damn-fool thing that came along when I was in the army,and there was always people competing with me to fill that same slot. I had a friend who was awarded the Medal of Honor in VN after running cross-border recon missions into Laos and Cambodia for 6 years,and they finally pulled him off missions after he lost a lung on hilltop fighting off the NVA by himself as the other 5 guys on his team were trying to get to the helicopter.

 
Know how they got him to leave VN? He was told he was going to Camn Rah Bay to help plan a raid,and they they put something in his drink to sedate him. He was hours away from VN before he woke up and found out he was heading back to Bragg,and he WAS PISSED!

BTW,he died of the wounds he received that day in 1969 years later. IIRC,kidney cancer from contaminated blood transfusions.

He's not the only one,either. Truth to tell,other than the MoH,he was typical. Soldiers fight. That's what they spend their lives training to do,and that's what the want to do.

And Colonels and Generals LOVE war because it leads to higher commands and higher commands lead to more promotions. Some of them like to fight,too. My camp commander in VN was a LtCol that had been a tanker during the Korean War,so he didn't have a CIB (Combat Infantryman's Badge) because they are ONLY awarded to infantrymen. So he asked one of our more hotshot Recon Team Leaders,who happened to be another SSG/E-6 if he could go out on a mission with him and his team so he could earn a CIB. Joe,the team leader,told him "Sure,but you have to carry the radio and obey my commands." The LTC agreed,and as it happened I was on radio watch on a hilltop in Laos where we had a remote radio relay when they deployed,and happened to be taking the noon sitrep from the LTC when the microphone was shot out of his hand and we lost contact. Talk about people in the rear area panicking! They all got out ok after a day or two of a running gun battle with the NVA.

This was a man in his 50's who wanted it so badly he agreed to go out under the command of a middle-grade enlisted soldier that was known to take risks and love getting into firefights. He didn't have to do that,and wasn't even supposed to do that,but he did it anyhow BECAUSE he was a soldier,and fighting in wars is what soldiers do.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 14, 2019, 10:40:24 PM
Don't leave any materiel behind for the enemy to use.

@Cyber Liberty

The US Military used to be real fond of loading excess equipment on ships and dropping it in deep water. I was told the reason for this was almost all the stuff coming back needed so much refurbishing that it was cheaper to buy new than to rebuild and update the old,but I am a cynic and think it always had more to do with votes connection to  union jobs and the "we ain't personally paying for it,so it is free stuff" mindset.

Your actual mileage may vary,though.

BTW,that used to be my tag line back on the bad old FR days.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 14, 2019, 10:55:00 PM
Here is the FDD, Foundation for Developing Democracies (a lot of people would say these people are "neo-cons"), Long War Journal which gets posted here from time to time, providing some rationale for the Trump decision:

Bill Roggio

Quote
1) @realDonaldTrump's withdrawal from Syria is a big foreign policy mistake. The US is selling out yet another ally. But this was a mistake that predated Trump. US chose a poor ally. YPG is not the "poor Kurds" that the media makes it out to be. This is the PKK's Syrian branch.

2) If you insist on pretending the YPG is not the PKK, here are photos of US Special Forces at a "YPG" funeral in 2017. Note the PKK and Oculan flags flying at the funeral, with US armored vehicles flying Old Glory in the background

3) This is disgraceful. The PKK is a specially designated terrorist organization. The PKK is responsible for killing tens of thousands of Turks during a bloody civil war.

4) The US, under the advice and direction of @brett_mcgurk
, chose the "YPG" (PKK) as its ally to fight the Islamic State. There was no consideration of Turkey's very real national security interests and concerns.

5) Let me be perfectly clear: I'm no fan of Erdogan. He has and continues to support terrorist groups, and is using HTS to battle the PKK right now. But if Erdogan was not president and the Turkish military was in power, it likely would doing exactly what he is doing.

6) Ironically, @brett_mcgurk
 also whitewashed the Iraqi Popular Mobilization Forces, the Iranian backed Shia terror groups, as it battled ISIS inside Iraq. The PMF is now killing Iraqis who are protesting. We shouldn't be shocked about what is happening there.

7) When the US, under the Obama admin, pulled support from the Iraqi Kurds (the real good Kurds), as the PMF rolled over them in Kirkuk and elsewhere, where was the media and "experts" outrage. @brett_mcgurk
, who has been vocal about the current betrayal. was silent on that.

8) What is happening in Syria and Iraq today did not happen in a vacuum. These problems stem from a decade of bad foreign policy decisions. After withdrawing from Iraq as the Syrian civil war raged, the Obama admin wanted to outsource the war against ISIS...

9) So the Obama admin outsourced the war & chose terrible partners (PKK in Syria, PMF in Iraq). The US chose terror groups to fight terror groups (Iraq is a bit more complicated as the Iraqi military was part of fight, but Iraqi govt backed PMF & even made it a legitimate unit).

10 The @realDonaldTrump
 admin is not absolved. It has owned this problem for almost 3 years. Like the Obama admin, it made no effort to reform the YPG, make it drop its radical Marxist ideology, and convince the Turkish gov't that it was important it to fight ISIS.

11) Instead, the US military and policy makers that continued to back the YPG/PKK kept kicking this can of problems down the road, without realizing the plug could be pulled at any moment. It was no secret Trump wanted to leave Syria. Why was no effort made to to mitigate this?

12) Context to how we got here is key. There is little context in today's news reports on this topic. Most of it is vapid Trump-bashing. The YPG is treated as innocent Kurds when it is in fact the PKK. This problem was years in the making and did not appear out of the ether.

https://twitter.com/billroggio (https://twitter.com/billroggio)

It's a hard decision to make alright.... he sums it up well.

https://www.longwarjournal.org/ (https://www.longwarjournal.org/)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 10:56:56 PM
In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).

That is not true. I said 'exit strategy'... Easing out over months or a year or two. Buttressing against the failures that might predictably happen in the vacuum of our absence.
You cannot just walk off and let the cards fall where they may.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 14, 2019, 11:03:11 PM
That is not true. I said 'exit strategy'... Easing out over months or a year or two. Buttressing against the failures that might predictably happen in the vacuum of our absence.
You cannot just walk off and let the cards fall where they may.

You make an important distinction.  It would be nice if the local warlords didn't decide to improve their street cred by shooting at us on the way out.  I think this has a lot to do with why we don't just do as you suggest.   :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 14, 2019, 11:49:11 PM
You make an important distinction.  It would be nice if the local warlords didn't decide to improve their street cred by shooting at us on the way out.  I think this has a lot to do with why we don't just do as you suggest.   :shrug:

Meh... It ain't all that hard. The only ones we care about there is the Kurds... Tell em straight up we are getting out and find out how much time they need to get ready for that. 90 days? alright, 90 days... what do we need to do before we leave? how do we evac them or strengthen them to withstand before the fact? Do all that and ease on out. Seeya.
 You don't just say, "Oh, by the way, we're out of here day after tomorrow, Sorry if you're gonna get slaughtered... That's on you..." That's bullcrap.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 15, 2019, 02:06:04 AM
In that case, we can't leave anywhere at all.  Nowhere.  We are no longer a nation, in any sense of the word, because now we don't truly control our military.  They belong to their host countries, and our foreign policy is under the control of places like Eritrea by virtue of uniformed hostages (their uniforms as well as ours).

This is, IMO, a key point.  Maybe we owe the Syrian Kurds something, and maybe we don't.  But if we do, how much, and for how long?

Another poster on one of these threads mentioned that we ducked out on Viet Nam.  That's true.  But we've also stayed in Korea, honoring "our" promise for generations.  I put quotes around the word 'our' because I wasn't born when that promise(?) was made, like roughly half of our population.

Were promises made to the Syrian Kurds?  If so, by which administration?  Our system of government is not exactly a secret, so no nation should be stupid enough to assume that we would keep "our" word for more than about four years.

[Side note:  I think the trump admin screwed up a bit here.  Did we really need to pull out last week, or could we have stuck around a bit and secured a more orderly transition?  I'm all for getting our troops the freak out of the ME, but this pull out stinks of Sir Robin]
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: kevindavis on October 15, 2019, 05:44:23 AM
Says the isolationist idiot
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 15, 2019, 06:32:03 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/russian-shadow-falls-over-syria-as-kurds-open-door-for-assad (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/russian-shadow-falls-over-syria-as-kurds-open-door-for-assad)
“Iran and Russia are the dominant foreign powers now,” said Arshan. “They will dictate terms in this region. Things have really changed.”
Title: Exclusive: U.S. Cedes Syrian City to Russia in Battlefield 'Handover' as Turkey Tries to Take It
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:23:14 AM
Quote
World
Exclusive: U.S. Cedes Syrian City to Russia in Battlefield 'Handover' as Turkey Tries to Take It
By James LaPorta AND Tom O'Connor On 10/14/19 at 2:54 PM EDT

The U.S. military has begun a hasty exit from Syria's northern city of Manbij, and is set to help Russia establish itself there amid a Turkish attempt to defeat Kurdish-led, Pentagon-backed fighters at the strategic location, Newsweek has learned.

The U.S. was scheduled as of Monday to officially withdraw from Manbij within 24-hours, leaving the mostly Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces behind as two rival factions—the Syrian government, backed by Russia and Iran, and the Turkey-backed Syrian insurgents opposed to it—sought to seize control of the strategic location. A senior Pentagon official told Newsweek that U.S. personnel, "having been in the area for longer, has been assisting the Russian forces to navigate through previously unsafe areas quickly."

"It is essentially a handover," the official said. "However, it's a quick out, not something that will include walk-throughs, etc., everything is about making out with as much as possible of our things while destroying any sensitive equipment that cannot be moved."

Read more at: https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-washington-cede-syrian-city-russia-handover-turkey-tries-1465112 (https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-washington-cede-syrian-city-russia-handover-turkey-tries-1465112)

This sounds like, we really indeed, did handover this town, city to Russia.

Quote
...

Now it is Russia who is doing that, after US literally handed the town to Moscow in a synchronised move

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1184062676353376256 (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1184062676353376256)

Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:34:15 AM
TomSea wrote:
"And we are admiting Trump was not truthful in saying ISIS was not defeated 100%.
Obama should have known better, Trump should have known better."


Tom, it is YOU who should "know better".

isis are but this season's bad apples that have fallen from islam's tree.
Before them was the taliban
And al queda
And many others before them.

Even if we were to kill every single one of them, there will be "a new crop" that springs up to take their place soon afterwards.

And this isn't going to change until we "cut down the tree".
You DO know what "that tree" is, don't you, Tom...?

I am not talking "philosophy here", we are talking about a specific country that is about the size of Florida and ISIS was not 100% defeated there. Your criticism should be at the President, not me then.  One can throw in this "all Muslims are bad" view in about every thread here.

Let's see, who had 2 World Wars that killed millions? And the USSR dictatorship that killed millions?  Europeans?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:38:37 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/russian-shadow-falls-over-syria-as-kurds-open-door-for-assad (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/14/russian-shadow-falls-over-syria-as-kurds-open-door-for-assad)
“Iran and Russia are the dominant foreign powers now,” said Arshan. “They will dictate terms in this region. Things have really changed.”

We draw into our shell, Iran and Russia are the powers, the Kurds mad at us and disappointed too, Turkey mad at us as well as rampaging in Syria, who knows what they might be doing in Turkey. Turkey has valid concerns as some previous posts show.  Let's not fool ourselves and let's not just vilify them. There is a lot of blame to go around.

This Kurdish General Mazloum is PKK per this twitterer. Mazloum has been in a number of stories, I think I saw him interviewed:

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
My a few cents:

• President of the United States directly talked to a leader of PKK, Ferdi Abdi Şahin (General Mazloum). Let that sink in after Trump’s acknowledgment that PKK was a US partner force while designated.

• How will US mediate while taking a clear side with YPG?

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183988670929522689 (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1183988670929522689)

And again,  Brett McGurk  (https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk) helped put this original deal together to fight ISIS and ISIS was largely beaten, not 100% but ISIS was defeated, Assad didn't do it, Russia, Hezbollah and Iran didn't really do it either.

There was Obama's red line not to cross....so, it was crossed and things weren't done, there certainly is no one party to lay blame on.

It's all a plateful, what we are doing, we expanded our base in Iraq, we can just wait and see what develops.

So, we are in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, I can definitely see the point, that we don't need to be everywhere....

Had to add this, here is that General Mazloum:

Quote
Kurdistan 24 English
@K24English
Monday’s discussion marked the first time that Donald Trump has ever spoken with the Kurdish commander. It also seemed that Trump did a bit of mediating between the #SDF and Turkey. #TwitterKurds @VP
 @aykan_erdemir

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1183989145435279360/P49eaZxl?format=jpg&name=small)
https://twitter.com/K24English/status/1184010035283877889 (https://twitter.com/K24English/status/1184010035283877889)
US President Donald Trump (left) spoke on Oct. 14, 2019, with Gen. Mazloum Abdi, the head of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). (Photo: Kurdistan 24)

Story here: https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/0fbfcec5-0003-47f5-923b-b073d2a52d2b (https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/0fbfcec5-0003-47f5-923b-b073d2a52d2b)

Anyway,  Ragip Soylu  (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu)  brought up some good points...why weren't we more critical of Saudi Arabia and the Khashoggi murder? Or why are we pretty easy on Egypt with the said repression there? I'm not taking up the points, Soylu, the journalist above said that and he's got some right in what he is saying.

"My favorite dictator", that's not to be critical of Trump, it's a bad, bad area of the world.  It sort of makes sense to say even.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:59:12 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG4CPRyXYAA1F5o?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG4CPUfWoAEAQZj?format=jpg&name=large)

Just adding that in.

If it wasn't Russia but say, France or UK that was taking up the slack in Syria and we said, France/UK, you can be in charge of things in Syria, we'll stick with Iraq and Saudi Arabia and our good friend Israel, most people wouldn't see much wrong with that.
Title: Re: Exclusive: U.S. Cedes Syrian City to Russia in Battlefield 'Handover' as Turkey Tries to Take It
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 08:14:46 AM
What's your point, Tom?  Are we now supposed to be fighting Russia?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 08:17:17 AM
Mitch said today and he said last week, they already have a super-majority to pass these bills.  He said that about last Thursday and he's since reiterated this.

Funny thing, the Democratic system!  :patriot:

McConnell, who did not mention Trump by name, said Monday that the withdrawal of troops would not help the U.S.'s long-term interest in the region. He reiterated that earlier this year a bipartisan supermajority of senators supported legislation warning against the early withdrawal of U.S. troops from Syria and Afghanistan.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/14/mitch-mcconnell-syria-conflict-046690 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/14/mitch-mcconnell-syria-conflict-046690)

@Right_in_Virginia

Oh well, Trump can probably count on Rand Paul and Mike Lee and Tulsi Gabbard in the House.

SUPER MAJORITY BABY! WOOO!

(https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcoe98Y8BP1rb2p1xo1_500.gif)

Why do you want us at war with Syria, Tom?
Title: Re: Statement from President Donald J. Trump Regarding Turkey’s Actions in Northeast Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 08:18:27 AM
Here's a tweet you should be interested in, Tom.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 08:33:36 AM
I am not talking "philosophy here", we are talking about a specific country that is about the size of Florida and ISIS was not 100% defeated there. Your criticism should be at the President, not me then.  One can throw in this "all Muslims are bad" view in about every thread here.

Let's see, who had 2 World Wars that killed millions? And the USSR dictatorship that killed millions?  Europeans?


You do know the ISIS mopping up is recapturing those that escaped, most of whom are family members.  And you do know Syria's going to kill them this time, don't you, Tom?
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 08:36:02 AM
Really?  The Kurds released exactly the prisoners most likely to kill Kurds and think of Turks as allies?

Can you think of a better way to get American troops back on site @Cyber Liberty  If so, what would that be?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 15, 2019, 09:20:14 AM

Quote
Another poster on one of these threads mentioned that we ducked out on Viet Nam.

@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer 

Speaking as a VN veteran who was on the ground there,it was long overdue. Our political "leadership" never intended to win there to start with. LBJ sent troops to VN for domestic political reasons,and didn't truly give a squat if they won or not. He just wanted to look tough on communism for votes and campaign contributions.

The Dim leadership after LBJ were worse because many of them were active communist agents who actively worked to PREVENT us from winning. People like Senator William Fullbright,Bubba Clinton's political rabbi. He was suspected of actually sending battle plans to the enemy. The truth is,it COULD have been proven,but as the ranking Dim in the Senate there was no way in HELL any charges were ever going to be brought against him because the DNC placed party loyalty over loyalty to America or our Constitution. They still do,but are more open about it today.

The Soviets infiltrated the Dim Party back in the 30's,and their influence just got stronger with every decade that passed. King Franklin and his commie wife/cousin are prime examples,with his devotion to his "Uncle Joe" practically being shouted from the roof of the WH.

Since all we were going to do there was get more American military members killed or crippled for life while keeping the union jobs in the defense industry working overtime,we needed to leave.

NEVER fight a war when the original plan is to,at BEST,fight to a draw. If you don't plan on winning the damn thing,don't get involved in it!

Quote
Were promises made to the Syrian Kurds?
 

Don't know,don't care. What I do know is that promises WERE made to American voters and they never meant to keep them.


Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 10:36:03 AM
Why do you want us at war with Syria, Tom?
I am for keeping peace in Syria. Looks like that didn't happen.

Why do you want to see ISIS rise again? Why do you want to abandon the allies who defeated ISIS?  Why are you plugging for Obama II ?  At least, on this issue.

If that's how you carry on conversation, I can do the same.

Yeah, and I don't believe in abandoning people to genocide either. 

If the MSM is honest, that's part of Obama's legacy.

Let's see, is one for giving Iran more power? That kind of flies in the face of all of our Iran-chatter as well. We helped them seize more power.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 11:01:24 AM
Is this widespread? Or could CNN just be trying to card stack this case?
Quote
Washington (CNN)A wide range of American military personnel and defense officials are expressing a deep sense of frustration and anger at the Trump administration's refusal to support Syrian Kurds facing a Turkish military assault, over half a dozen US military and defense officials have told CNN.

Several US military and defense officials, including personnel deployed to Syria, expressed dismay at how the Trump administration has handled the situation.

One US official said it is well known that some senior US military officials are livid at how the Kurds have been treated given their role in helping the US fight ISIS.

Read more at:     US troops express anger at Trump's Syria policy: 'We betrayed' the Kurds - CNN  (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/15/politics/us-troops-syria-anger/index.html?utm_term=image&utm_content=2019-10-15T10%3A54%3A02&utm_source=twCNNp&utm_medium=social)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: skeeter on October 15, 2019, 11:06:48 AM
Is this widespread? Or could CNN just be trying to card stack this case?

Project Veritas' latest project should answer that question. Jeff Zucker is on a personal crusade.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 15, 2019, 11:19:47 AM
Can you think of a better way to get American troops back on site @Cyber Liberty  If so, what would that be?

I don't know about "better," but I can't think of a worse way to do it. :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 11:20:20 AM
This is what happens when America does most of the heavy lifting, okay, France, UK sent troops in. UN Blue Helmets could have maybe been in there too.

Speaking of, the Blue Helmets do go to places and in my opinion, the UN does do some good with "peacekeepers". I'll say, this is a difficult situation and actually, one of a number of hot spots in the world.

Maybe next time, Nations can get it together to try to make sure, this does not happen ahead of time.

Galling, the Kurds have gotten this bad deal so often.
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 11:59:59 AM
I am inclined to believe the Turks.

Side with the side that oppresses Christians, committed genocide against them in the past.

I'm shocked, absolutely shocked!

 000hehehehe

But our soldiers trust these guys, hmmn...     :patriot:

It is even an open secret that Jihadists are working with Turkey, yeah, let's believe them... or is it Barak Hussein Trump?
Title: Re: Turkey: Kurdish Forces Emptied Syrian Prison of ISIS Militants
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 12:20:37 PM
By the way, the Pentagon has assessed Turkey or Turk-backed Jihadists did it.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/14/turkish-backed-forces-freeing-islamic-state-prisoners-syria/
.
So, one believes the Turks over the US Pentagon, okay, it takes all kinds.

How surprising, this is just trolling the thread.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 12:23:55 PM
Quote
US troops in anguish as the White House and Pentagon give their Kurdish allies the middle finger
Jeff Schogol     October 13, 2019

For U.S. service members who have fought alongside the Kurds, President Donald Trump's decision to approve repositioning U.S. forces in Syria ahead of Turkey's invasion is a naked betrayal of valued allies.

"I am ashamed for the first time in my career," one unnamed special operator told Fox News Jennifer Griffin.

In a Twitter thread that went viral, Griffin wrote the soldier told her the Kurds were continuing to support the United States by guarding tens of thousands of ISIS prisoners even though Turkey had nullified an arrangement under which U.S. and Turkish troops were conducting joint patrols in northeastern Syria to allow the Kurdish People's Protection Units, or YPG, to withdraw.

Read more at: https://taskandpurpose.com/troops-anguish-kurdish-allies

We already saw this posted but another story.
Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 12:37:06 PM

You do know the ISIS mopping up is recapturing those that escaped, most of whom are family members.  And you do know Syria's going to kill them this time, don't you, Tom?

No, I haven't seen that in the news anywhere.  At least, not as stated, yes, I know many family members escaped too.

You may well mean "The Syrian Army mopping up" or something, that statement,"ISIS mopping up is recapturing..." does not make sense, you might have said the wrong party or left out words.  Nothing wrong with that.

It it is meant, a mop up of ISIS, there are stories too, that undoubtedly, Jihadists are on Turkey's side.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, it's hard to say ISIS is the enemy of Turkey, as if they are going to be mopped up by Syria or even Russia, but the matter is complex, I give the benefit of the doubt to the president over that.

Quote
Wladimir
@vvanwilgenburg
·
53m
Friend from Kobani send me this: "Trump is lying. If the US is not going to protect the Kurds, they should leave. They have sold us to Turkey, do they want us and our children to be killed by the jihadis? The militia who are attacking #Kobani are not FSA, they are ISIS."

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1184154413272727552

This may be false but what is true, is a Jihadist is a Jihadist.
Quote

Lara Seligman
@laraseligman
Just in: SDC’s US representative tells me Turkish backed forces are attacking Kobani and kidnapping civilians - despite Erdogan’s commitment to Trump yesterday that he would NOT attack the town

https://twitter.com/laraseligman/status/1184151178835308544

https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg

Title: Re: The Syrian Kurds Are Not America’s Problem
Post by: libertybele on October 15, 2019, 12:46:48 PM
Says the isolationist idiot

 888high58888
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 01:08:43 PM
Qatar today, along with Hamas of all people, came out supporting the Turkish invasion today.

al Jazeera comes from Qatar, al Jazeera is said to be biased towards the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas and probably Qatar are.  So, al Jazeera comes out with this article on "Who is the SDF?", I still think it's worth reading though, one could say, it is kind of a smear job on the SDF, it's for everyone to gather as many facts as possible. I'd like to see a response to this:

Quote
Who are the Syrian Democratic Forces?

The US-backed SDF is mostly made up of YPG fighters which Turkey considers a 'terror group' linked to the PKK.

Turkey launched its long-threatened military operation into northern Syria last week marking Ankara's third major cross-border offensive since 2016.

Ankara says the "Operation Peace Spring" aims to remove Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) from northern Syrian region bordering Turkey and create a so-called "safe zone" where millions of Syrian refugees can be resettled. Turkey hosts about 3.6 million Syrian refugees who have fled the nearly eight-year-old civil war.

Ankara considers the Kurdish People's Protection Group (YPG), which forms the backbone of the SDF, a "terrorist" group linked to Kurdish separatist group Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), inside Turkey. PKK is designated as a "terrorist group" by the United States and the European Union.

Read more at: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/syrian-democratic-forces-191015080247945.html (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/syrian-democratic-forces-191015080247945.html)

al Araby,  al Araby, The New Arab  (https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/) also comes out of Qatar, by the same people I think but was created to not have these same kinds of biases.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 15, 2019, 02:07:07 PM

Quote
In a Twitter thread that went viral, Griffin wrote the soldier told her the Kurds were continuing to support the United States by guarding tens of thousands of ISIS prisoners ....

So the Kurds were actually protecting the US????

WOW! Who knew?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 15, 2019, 02:24:49 PM
I am for keeping peace in Syria. Looks like that didn't happen.

Why do you want to see ISIS rise again? Why do you want to abandon the allies who defeated ISIS?  Why are you plugging for Obama II ?  At least, on this issue.

What are you talking about @TomSea ?????  Obama blew apart Syria.  President Trump is putting it back together.

Why do you oppose this?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 15, 2019, 02:27:43 PM
Quote
Is this widespread? Or could CNN just be trying to card stack this case?

No this is the broken clock/blind squirrel analogy coming into play.

CNN has stumbled onto a legitimate issue.  Yes there are soldiers across the miltiary as well inside the WH and the Pentagon that are furious at Trump's retreat.

Trump's knee jerk decision played into CNN's TDS with this one.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 02:41:01 PM
What are you talking about @TomSea ?????  Obama blew apart Syria.  President Trump is putting it back together.

Why do you oppose this?

Quote
Rep. Michael Waltz says US troop pullout from Syria sets conditions for 'ISIS 2.0'
Joshua Nelson

Republican Rep. Michael Waltz said on Monday that President Trump’s decision to withdraw U.S. troops in northeastern Syria is unfolding too soon and creates wars instead of ending them.

“We’ve set the conditions for ISIS 2.0,” Waltz told “America’s Newsroom.” “Except we won’t have any local allies to fight them again.”

He added, “We’re repeating the mistakes of the Obama administration which pulled out of Iraq to soon and led to all of this in the first place."

Read more at: https://www.foxnews.com/media/rep-michael-waltz-says-u-s-troops-pullout-from-syria-sets-conditions-for-isis-2-0 (https://www.foxnews.com/media/rep-michael-waltz-says-u-s-troops-pullout-from-syria-sets-conditions-for-isis-2-0)

Republican Representative Florida says this, in fact, many people say this. We are repeating the mistake of withdrawal in 2011 that Obama made.

That's fine if one disagrees with it but it's not like this statement is brand new and unheard of, Graham said it, perhaps Rubio has said it, it wouldn't surprise if others say it. It's certainly been stated a number of times.

@Right_in_Virginia

Anyway, the questions don't need to come to me,  the Military handled fighting ISIS, perhaps they should be handling this too instead of the Executive Branch now deciding things.   Remember, I am mainly just echoing what they are saying.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 02:44:14 PM
So the Kurds were actually protecting the US????

WOW! Who knew?

It says the Kurds were/are guarding ISIS prisoners. 

It is what it is. I don't see how one could read that into the excerpt posted.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 02:55:44 PM
The author use to work in DC for a Turkish newspaper, now, he's gone over to Middle East Eye (MEE) which still can have decent individual articles, I kind of feel sorry for him,  he's semi-offending a country viciously and partly correctly, vilified in the international press while he himself, doesn't seem to bad, I've followed him for a spell.

Quote
EXCLUSIVE: 'Work with us in Syria or get out of the way,' Erdogan told Trump
By Ragip Soylu in Ankara

When Recep Tayyip Erdogan ended his call with Donald Trump on Sunday, there was a sense of frustration in the Turkish capital and a feeling that Ankara's concerns had not been properly considered.

Just hours later those sentiments were reversed, as the White House released an explosive readout declaring its support for a Turkish assault in northeast Syria and upending US policy in the region.

"Erdogan told Trump that the US should either work with Turkey to conduct this operation or just get out of the way,” a Turkish official familiar with the conversation told Middle East Eye.

Article: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-syria-turkey-kurds-erdogan-trump (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-syria-turkey-kurds-erdogan-trump)

Quote
Kurdish politician's murder prompted sanctions, Trump said to have told Erdogan
Penalties placed by White House designed to preempt more severe congressional ones, MEE understands

(https://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_page/public/images-story/egwdxllwoaeshjk.jpg?itok=k4_WC1l0)
Hervin Khalaf was murdered by the side of the road in northeastern Syria (Twitter)
By Ragip Soylu in Ankara
Published date: 15 October 2019 15:00 UTC | Last update: 14 sec ago

Donald Trump cited the murder of a female Kurdish politician as a reason behind the sanctions placed on Turkey in a call to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a Turkish official has revealed to Middle East Eye.

On Monday, Washington placed a series of sanctions on Turkish government officials and institutions in response to Ankara’s offensive in northeastern Syria.

Before the sanctions were announced, the Turkish and US presidents spoke by phone, with Trump outlining why he was now penalising Ankara after having previously seemed accepting of Turkey’s operation.

More: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/murder-kurdish-politician-prompted-sanctions-trump-said-have-told-erdogan (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/murder-kurdish-politician-prompted-sanctions-trump-said-have-told-erdogan)

 Twitter, Ragip Soylu  (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu)

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
20m
LATEST on Syria:

• Kremlin: Turkey shouldn’t get in Syria beyond 5-10km
• Russian forces in US base in Manbij
• Multiple clashes near Ras al-Ayn
• Assad convoy in Manbij hit by air strike
• Pentagon trained YPG/SDF against a Turkish incursion with MULTIPLE REHEARSALS (FP) 

So, that "safe zone", "buffer zone" is pretty small, with what the Russians demand... that's about the same that everyone else was demanding, a very very limited zone especially when Turkey may have even wanted up to 30Kms or so.

That's what no one could agree with at the negotiations table.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 06:58:01 PM
I am for keeping peace in Syria. Looks like that didn't happen.

Why do you want to see ISIS rise again? Why do you want to abandon the allies who defeated ISIS?  Why are you plugging for Obama II ?  At least, on this issue.

If that's how you carry on conversation, I can do the same.

Yeah, and I don't believe in abandoning people to genocide either. 

If the MSM is honest, that's part of Obama's legacy.

Let's see, is one for giving Iran more power? That kind of flies in the face of all of our Iran-chatter as well. We helped them seize more power.

Listen. These people are all tribal. The only reason they can Wage War like we do is because WE gave them that ability.

Walking away from Syria is good.

Research it. There is an official government report that says there are (at least) 20 other groups willing to fill in the void left by the decimation of ISIS.

These people DON'T care, about your rules , alliances, honor, or your effing apple pie.

They spin. Spin. Spin. Never turn your back on them.

You know why I don't care if any side there commits atrocities or genocide?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE.

WHY SHOULD WE?

This isn't about Syria, Iraq, Turkey...

It is about playing FU**-FU** games with the Russians.

Trump is right, here.
Title: Trump’s Abandoning of the Kurds in Syria Has Led to a “Total S**tstorm”
Post by: libertybele on October 15, 2019, 07:12:59 PM
Trump’s Abandoning of the Kurds in Syria Has Led to a “Total Shitstorm”

............mere hours after Trump's announcement, when Turkey launched a series of airstrikes against Kurdish positions. Dozens of Kurdish fighters and civilians have been killed since then, and the United Nations estimates that 130,000 people have fled their homes to escape the violence. Hundreds of detained family members of ISIS fighters escaped from an understaffed prison camp, and the U.S. has managed to take custody of only two of more than 2,000 suspected ISIS terrorists held in the area, according to CBS News. On Sunday, Kurdish forces indeed announced an alliance with the Iran- and Russia-backed Assad regime, opening up large swaths of northern Syria to recapture by Assad's forces. On Monday, The New York Times reported that his armies were already on the move.

The sudden instability has placed American lives in danger, too. Newsweek reported that Turkish forces have fired shells near positions long known to be held by American troops, suggesting that Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is deliberately working to hasten their retreat. "Turkey knows all of our locations down to the precise grid coordinate," wrote Brett McGurk, former special envoy to the coalition to defeat ISIS, on Twitter. "This was not a mistake." A senior administration official described the situation to The Washington Post as "total chaos" and a "total shitstorm":.............

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-abandoning-kurds-syria-led-192649244.html (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/trump-abandoning-kurds-syria-led-192649244.html)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 15, 2019, 07:20:57 PM
Listen. These people are all tribal. The only reason they can Wage War like we do is because WE gave them that ability.

Walking away from Syria is good.

Research it. There is an official government report that says there are (at least) 20 other groups willing to fill in the void left by the decimation of ISIS.

These people DON'T care, about your rules , alliances, honor, or your effing apple pie.

They spin. Spin. Spin. Never turn your back on them.

You know why I don't care if any side there commits atrocities or genocide?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE.

WHY SHOULD WE?

This isn't about Syria, Iraq, Turkey...

It is about playing FU**-FU** games with the Russians.

Trump is right, here.

@bigheadfred

And there it is.

The problem is that westerners are taught practically from birth to consider the "other man to be reasonable,we just disagree and need to talk so we can compromise".

People from eastern cultures get brain freeze if you were even to suggest such a thing. "MY way is the right way,and if you disagree I have a right to kill you!" seems to be their basic take on everyday life when it comes to dealing with people outside of their tribe/religion.

Somebody PLEASE splain to me how you can reason with a religious fanatic.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 15, 2019, 07:24:43 PM
Somebody PLEASE splain to me how you can reason with a religious fanatic.

Tell him the 72 virgins all look like Helen Thomas? :smokin:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 07:33:01 PM
Tell him the 72 virgins all look like Helen Thomas? :smokin:

How the hell is that supposed to work if you show them a female?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Sanguine on October 15, 2019, 07:33:13 PM
Tell him the 72 virgins all look like Helen Thomas? :smokin:

And, they're raisins: https://globalnation.inquirer.net/163694/raisins-not-virgins-quran-scholars-say
Title: Re: Trump’s Abandoning of the Kurds in Syria Has Led to a “Total S***storm”
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:39:28 PM
To me, just my opinion, it's like he lacks geo-political understandings, it's almost a decision an adolescent makes, it's also kind of a dumb decision the heavily non-interventionists make.

I asked for advice and then edited the headline @libertybele   , at least for the banner, I won't change the posting. Any other moderators can if it is not proper.

It's an infuriating decision for me and I know many others, it really is some decision a 12 year old would make for many and I don't mean that to be mean-spirited, we should at least do something more, no-fly zone or something.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 15, 2019, 07:47:34 PM
Tell him the 72 virgins all look like Helen Thomas? :smokin:

@Cyber Liberty

Are you trying to convince him you are an infidel?

Although it would go a long ways towards explaining how they are still virgins and the family goat isn't.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 07:50:05 PM
And, they're raisins: https://globalnation.inquirer.net/163694/raisins-not-virgins-quran-scholars-say

Right. Mistranslations and misunderstanding.

What all of you need to comprehend, not understand, is that these people are "raisin"ed from birth to follow Sharia Law. And that interpretation of that law is something that some of you can surely understand.

We call it the Ninth Circus.

I should shut up, but this:

Each tribe follows the Commandments of their local shaman, imam, or similar "religious" leader the "t". THEIR individual interpretation of the LAW, IS THE LAW.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 07:51:28 PM
@Cyber Liberty

Are you trying to convince him you are an infidel?

Although it would go a long ways towards explaining how they are still virgins and the family goat isn't.

I'm still a virgin...
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 07:54:51 PM
Listen. These people are all tribal. The only reason they can Wage War like we do is because WE gave them that ability.

Walking away from Syria is good.

Research it. There is an official government report that says there are (at least) 20 other groups willing to fill in the void left by the decimation of ISIS.

These people DON'T care, about your rules , alliances, honor, or your effing apple pie.

They spin. Spin. Spin. Never turn your back on them.

You know why I don't care if any side there commits atrocities or genocide?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE.

WHY SHOULD WE?

This isn't about Syria, Iraq, Turkey...

It is about playing FU**-FU** games with the Russians.

Trump is right, here.

Okay, such an expert on these people, what's the name of the group of Christians over there that numbered say over 1,500,000 in Iraq pre-2003 to under 500,000 now?? We've already heard the "it's all tribal" spiel. And even if you do get that name in a timely fashion, it kind of refutes it being in a timely fashion and no, I don't think that Christians who have been there since New Testament times should be abandoned because USA goes in there.

@bigheadfred

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/2003-christians-iraq-1-400000-2016-christians-iraq-275000 (https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/2003-christians-iraq-1-400000-2016-christians-iraq-275000)

Honestly, I won't name names of our presidents because I don't know all of the facts, but if you mess up some of these things, I don't see how you can sleep at night.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:09:50 PM
Okay, such an expert on these people, what's the name of the group of Christians over there that numbered say over 1,500,000 in Iraq pre-2003 to under 500,000 now?? We've already heard the "it's all tribal" spiel. And even if you do get that name in a timely fashion, it kind of refutes it being in a timely fashion and no, I don't think that Christians who have been there since New Testament times should be abandoned because USA goes in there.

@bigheadfred

https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/2003-christians-iraq-1-400000-2016-christians-iraq-275000 (https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/2003-christians-iraq-1-400000-2016-christians-iraq-275000)

Honestly, I won't name names of our presidents because I don't know all of the facts, but if you mess up some of these things, I don't see how you can sleep at night.

uh huh

Why don't you name ALL of the Americans who have died fighting this useless shit?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:11:39 PM
PS @TomSea

( No personal attacks - Moderator)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:12:59 PM
PPS: @TomSea

Stop the wringing of hands, sackcloth and ashes.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:14:42 PM
Quote
I don't know all of the facts

Neither do I.

I stand by what I posted.
Title: Erdoğan says he will never declare Syria ceasefire: Turkish media
Post by: mystery-ak on October 15, 2019, 08:24:54 PM
Erdoğan says he will never declare Syria ceasefire: Turkish media
By John Bowden - 10/15/19 07:26 PM EDT

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was defiant in a call with President Trump on Tuesday, vowing that U.S. sanctions on the country would not force Turkey to declare a ceasefire in northern Syria, according to a Turkish broadcaster.

NTV reported that Erdoğan told reporters on a flight back from Baku, in Azerbaijan, that he told Trump that Turkey would "not negotiate with a terrorist organization," referring to U.S.-backed Kurdish militant groups operating in northern Syria, according to Reuters.

Turkey's military campaign in northern Syria targeting U.S.-backed Kurdish militia groups that the NATO member considers to be terrorist organizations has caused widespread condemnations from U.S. lawmakers and foreign leaders, though Erdoğan has shown no signs of backing down from the campaign.

more
https://thehill.com/policy/international/465967-erdogan-says-he-will-never-declare-syria-ceasefire-turkish-media
Title: Re: Erdoğan says he will never declare Syria ceasefire: Turkish media
Post by: DB on October 15, 2019, 08:27:07 PM
So I guess those threats of economic retaliation weren't too effective...
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 08:42:34 PM
uh huh

Why don't you name ALL of the Americans who have died fighting this useless shit?

I guess that means you don't know their names. Not the big expert, I asked a simple question

You have that right, we shouldn't go in and make it worse.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 15, 2019, 08:44:31 PM
@Cyber Liberty

Are you trying to convince him you are an infidel?

Although it would go a long ways towards explaining how they are still virgins and the family goat isn't.

 :hattip:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:50:28 PM
I guess that means you don't know their names. Not the big expert, I asked a simple question

You have that right, we shouldn't go in and make it worse.

A simple question. Who did the last census?

The Greek Orthodox Church? The Copts?

What I am trying to tell you is that these people wear the mask of the day.

When you say which one sect? THEY don't know.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 08:57:48 PM
PS @TomSea

( No personal attacks - Moderator)

How Sharia of you.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 08:58:52 PM
uh huh

Why don't you name ALL of the Americans who have died fighting this useless shit?

Not many in Syria, hardly any at all,

Let's see, Trump announced this same kind of deal back last December, Jihadists liked it, killed 4 Americans in a restaurant by suicide bombing, that really is more on Trump though I don't really blame him, just stating what the news was  The Kurds and so forth made the ground sacrifices, we've done mainly airstrikes.

This is not Iraq or Afghanistan.

I don't think a dozen soldiers have died. Yes, it is a great tragedy when this happens.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 09:07:31 PM
Trump is not bringing these soldiers home, he's just moving them around but generally in that area
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 09:08:48 PM
Not many in Syria, hardly any at all,

Let's see, Trump announced this same kind of deal back last December, Jihadists liked it, killed 4 Americans in a restaurant by suicide bombing, that really is more on Trump though I don't really blame him, just stating what the news was  The Kurds and so forth made the ground sacrifices, we've done mainly airstrikes.

This is not Iraq or Afghanistan.

I don't think a dozen soldiers have died. Yes, it is a great tragedy when this happens.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

All I am tryng to say is that our military involvement anywhere over there shouldn't cost this country more than it has.

Military and political entanglements are one thing. I am not for abandoning Christians. The moslems can ESAD.

There are enough people in this country willing to lend aid. I will. IF that aid is what is intended and it goes to the people who it is sent for.

These people will kill maim and slaughter each other whether we are involved or not.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 15, 2019, 09:15:17 PM
Trump is not bringing these soldiers home, he's just moving them around but generally in that area

Maybe we should check where our Navy is at? What is the reach and capability of their weaponry positioned in and of the waters surrounding these conflicted areas?

Where is our Airforce?

Boots on the ground? Pull them out.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 15, 2019, 10:05:39 PM

Quote
Okay, such an expert on these people, what's the name of the group of Christians over there that numbered say over 1,500,000 in Iraq pre-2003 to under 500,000 now??


@TomSea

Dummies?

Quote
and no, I don't think that Christians who have been there since New Testament times should be abandoned because USA goes in there.

 Please feel free to go there any time you want to rescue them.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2019, 10:12:17 PM
Our total of soldiers on the border was 50, hardly any have been killed over there, we use heavy weaponry and air strikes.

Here's that article, right after Trump's announcement last December, I would not blame him but they probably would not have done that.

This isn't Iraq where thousands of American soldiers have died.

Trump is acting more like Obama:

Quote
4 Americans among those killed by explosion in Manbij, Syria
ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack, which came just weeks after President Trump said "we have beaten them and we have beaten them badly."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-service-members-wounded-explosion-manbij-syria-n959231 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-service-members-wounded-explosion-manbij-syria-n959231)

Oh  yes, and if the guys we backed talk to the Russians, the Russians might be able to get a lot of intel. We will see.

I"m giving Trump some benefit of the doubt here until we learn more.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 16, 2019, 05:13:54 AM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dyWr7NAhY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dyWr7NAhY#)

Russian mercenaries give video tour of abandoned US base in Northern Syria, laughing at the hasty US retreat, showing unfinished meals on dining tables and heavy military equipment left behind. A Russian propaganda coup.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG80Nu0XUAAdre7?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 16, 2019, 05:38:13 AM
@sneakypete
THAT'S RIGHT. We should not have been there in the first place. But we ARE there. And being there, we have made commitments. To just roll it up and walk off without an exit strategy, leaving our erstwhile allies to a bloodbath is simply unconscionable.

I don't care that Tumpy wants out. That's fine. HOW he gets out is the problem. This action is morally and strategically impaired, and that I think is why the Military folks don't like it.

I can see that, plain as day.
Sometimes, there is no graceful way to disengage from a political tarbaby. The only defense is to not have touched it in the first place. I can see the use of SF to advise and train as a middle ground to either noninvolvement vs deploying troops in larger numbers, the latter as distasteful as the first, but despite all reports of Assad's actions in Syria, we had no business messing in an internal conflict, especially against a duly elected government. Assad hasn't kept his place by being a nice guy, but then the groups he has to keep in line aren't' exactly playing pattycake, here, either.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 16, 2019, 05:40:34 AM
Can we get some "Peace with honor?"
Yeah, then the democrats can cut the funding after we back out and leave our allies completely screwed. Seems that happened somewhere before...
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 16, 2019, 06:40:59 AM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dyWr7NAhY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dyWr7NAhY#)

Russian mercenaries give video tour of abandoned US base in Northern Syria, laughing at the hasty US retreat, showing unfinished meals on dining tables and heavy military equipment left behind. A Russian propaganda coup.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG80Nu0XUAAdre7?format=jpg&name=900x900)

@Once-Ler

Just because YOU support ISIS doesn't mean Trump does,
Title: Viewpoint: Syria could be beginning of end for Trump
Post by: jpsb on October 16, 2019, 06:51:36 AM
President Donald Trump's policies on Syria are a disaster largely of his own making - one that could cost him re-election in 2020, says former US Assistant Secretary of State PJ Crowley.

There will not be an article of impeachment that includes Donald Trump's latest decisions regarding Syria among his alleged high crimes and misdemeanours. But the strategic disaster unfolding following his capitulation to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan could well mark the beginning of the end of the Trump presidency.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50049421 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50049421)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 16, 2019, 06:55:30 AM
@Once-Ler

Just because YOU support ISIS doesn't mean Trump does,
Look in the mirror @sneakypete .  I'm not the one shamefully defending the release of ISIS combatants in Syria.
Title: Re: Viewpoint: Syria could be beginning of end for Trump
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 07:07:52 AM
The same way I felt last December but worse, why couldn't he or WE have learned our lesson then? It's a complex matter, so I give some benefit of the doubt, Turkey has about 3.6 million refugees, nothing to sneeze at.  Yeah, I know some of the name Republican politicians must be sitting back and thinking, well, is someone going to get in this race?

If we were going to pull out,  set up a no-fly zone or something. Russia is a lot bigger in force over there and reports say, yes, they've lost quite a few men.

And these Turk-backed militias are the worst in news. Maybe the army itself could have acted halfway respectably.

It's hard to think an all-out war can not occur now, if Turkey has bombed Assad regime forces, which seem to be making their way to the border, these things are tweeted but might not show up in the news.

So easy to avoid, you wonder what a person is thinking!
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 07:22:17 AM
Pence is going over there, word is, Erdogan will only meet with Trump.

After all the fabrications, traps set, I consider them really, about Trump, Russia, Ukraine and so on, this really may be the big miscalculation. Like what is one thinking? To me, it's almost like one's "privileged" upbringing has blinded one to realities. Maybe this compares to the Bay of Pigs fiasco?

Gatestone Institute can get a bit far out for me but:

Quote
How Erdogan Planned This Ethnic Cleansing All Along
by Malcolm Lowe              October 16, 2019

...

It is now clear that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan intended the annihilation of the Syrian Kurds already two years ago. Moreover, his plans became evident to the US military by the beginning of 2019 and were conveyed to President Trump at that time.

In order to disguise his plans, Erdogan revealed them stage by stage, by making first lesser and then greater demands on the US military, to which Trump agreed -- sometimes in the course of telephone conversations with Erdogan. So Erdogan was able to hoodwink the US military up to January 2019 and to hoodwink Trump up to the current invasion: Trump resolutely defied contrary advice from the military (and from everyone else).

At first, Erdogan demanded the removal of Kurdish militias only west of the Euphrates river. This was the proclaimed aim of his so-called Operations Euphrates Shield and Olive Branch (the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Kurds from the Afrin area). With that accomplished, he began demanding a Turkish-controlled "security zone" east of the river, to be 32 kilometers deep. The US responded by agreeing to joint US-Turkish patrols in the area. Erdogan demanded that the Kurdish towns in the area should dismantle the fortifications that they had raised to defend themselves from the Islamic State (ISIS). The Kurds agreed, reassured by the US military that this step would remove any excuse for a Turkish invasion.

Read more at: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15036/erdogan-plan-annihilation-kurds (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/15036/erdogan-plan-annihilation-kurds)

Protests still going on against the Regime, so they are not happy with them either.
https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16353 (https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16353)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 16, 2019, 07:40:43 AM
Pence is going over there, word is, Erdogan will only meet with Trump.

There is no reason for the President to endanger himself by entering the war zone he helped to create.  Especially when it's all going exactly as Putin commanded.

Jeremy Newberger @jeremynewberger
2m
Turkey's Erdogan says he can not meet @VP  or @SecPompeo  tomorrow as he has beatings all day, and one roadside execution. How does next Wednesday look for you guys?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 07:50:55 AM
Quote
Nicole Gaouette
@NicoleCNN
As @POTUS
 sends his big guns to Turkey -- @SecPompeo
, @VP
 & others -- Erdogan has made other plans: he has accepted an invitation from Russian President Vladimir Putin to go to Russia for a working visit in the coming days, the Kremlin said Tuesday.

4:20 PM · Oct 15, 2019·Twitter Web App
https://twitter.com/NicoleCNN/status/1184217552794329090

Administration has done a lot of good but could we be humiliated per above? That'd be pretty cruel.

Putin has been to Saudi Arabia and UAE these past few days.

And us? What if Erdogan doesn't even meet with us which some people are saying?

How can this situation be salvaged?

Quote
Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
Remarkable journalism by @evanchill
 & @trbrtc
:

- In the space of 12hrs, #Russia jets targeted #UN-deconflicted hospitals in #Idlib.

@nytimes
 has #Russian radio logs to prove it.

CHECK MATE @mod_russia
.
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1184155899809665025
Go to tweet for link to NY Times article.

Quote
Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
What a disgrace.

@brett_mcgurk
 knows full well what I & others proposed from the get-go -- and it *wasn't* an either/or.

It was clear from Day 1 that as hard as it was, some form of balance between opposition & #YPG was necessary.

If you can't see that now, God help you.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGy1NetWsAATj14?format=jpg&name=small)

https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1183520139964309504

There is a heated debate online between these people.

Will Erdogan meet with Pence and Pompeo, maybe. There seems to be some confusion:
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1184431219523686400

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
Erdogan says countries such as US and Saudi Arabia,  who accuse Turkey of killing civilians,  should first look at the massacres conducted by their operations in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan.

“They were, supposedly by mistake, were hitting schools, bazaars, and weddings”
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1184405204516691968

Sadly this is true.


Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 16, 2019, 08:59:50 AM
Sometimes, there is no graceful way to disengage from a political tarbaby. The only defense is to not have touched it in the first place. I can see the use of SF to advise and train as a middle ground to either noninvolvement vs deploying troops in larger numbers, the latter as distasteful as the first, but despite all reports of Assad's actions in Syria, we had no business messing in an internal conflict, especially against a duly elected government. Assad hasn't kept his place by being a nice guy, but then the groups he has to keep in line aren't' exactly playing pattycake, here, either.

I get it.
I don't care.
It ain't right.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 09:13:16 AM
Couple questions...

1) Since the Turkey/Kurd conflict “isn’t our problem...400 year war” etc...as some people claim...will they also oppose any sanctions the President imposes on Turkey since as they claim...”it’s none of our business”?

2) Syria is now gearing up their military to stop any further incursion into their country by Turkey...Russia and Iran are backing Syria. If Turkey invokes Article 5 should we come to their defense?  I mean we have an agreement of collective defense with Turkey and no such agreement with the Kurds.
Title: Erdogan says Turkey's Syria offensive will end if Kurdish fighters withdraw
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 16, 2019, 09:14:59 AM
Erdogan says Turkey's Syria offensive will end if Kurdish fighters withdraw
Reuters, Oct 16, 2019

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey’s offensive into northeast Syria will end if Kurdish fighters in the region drop their weapons and withdraw from a planned “safe zone”, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Wednesday, but warned that no power could stop it until then.

Erdogan said the quickest solution was for militants to drop their weapons and pull back from the area by Wednesday evening. The operation will end when the “safe zone” is established, he said, and Turkey was not open to negotiating this.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-erdogan/erdogan-says-turkeys-syria-offensive-will-end-if-kurdish-fighters-withdraw-idUSKBN1WV19N?il=0 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-erdogan/erdogan-says-turkeys-syria-offensive-will-end-if-kurdish-fighters-withdraw-idUSKBN1WV19N?il=0)
Title: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: don-o on October 16, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
By Jason Jones & John Zmirak October 15, 2019
Jason Jones & John Zmirak

Neither of us held back in criticizing President Trump’s shock decision to pull out U.S. advisors from Syria. That paved the way for Turkey and its al Qaeda mercenaries to bomb and invade our Kurdish allies and Syrian Christians. The Turks promptly started to do just that. Their open aim? Ethnically cleansing the region of Christians, Kurds, and anyone else not to al Qaeda’s liking. Indeed, the Turks began an operation just like they unleashed in Afrin, Syria, last spring.

The Kurdish leadership wisely chose to play its only card to stop that. By pulling out U.S. troops, Trump forced the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces to make a deal with Damascus. That is, with the legal, if brutal, government of Syria. Now, as the Washington Examiner reports, Russian soldiers have replaced Americans patrolling the Turkish/Syrian border. That’s a win for “America First,” and a campaign promise kept. It’s far better for Syrians than a Turkish-led genocide, and Russia is more committed to the long haul than the U.S. ever was.

https://stream.org/when-the-dust-settles-will-trumps-syria-pivot-end-up-saving-syrian-christians/
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: Sanguine on October 16, 2019, 11:24:50 AM
 :pondering:
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: skeeter on October 16, 2019, 11:27:48 AM
Maybe this is why the republican leaders have 'dialed back' their vocal opposition to the president's recent Syria policy.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 16, 2019, 11:36:23 AM
Look in the mirror @sneakypete .  I'm not the one shamefully defending the release of ISIS combatants in Syria.

@Once-Ler

No,you're not. What you are doing is trying to damage the Trump Presidency so one of your left-wing loons might be able to win the next election.

Nice try,though.
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 11:53:25 AM
Okay, I'm familiar with John Zmirak, https://stream.org/author/johnzmirak/ (https://stream.org/author/johnzmirak/)

"Now the same senators (Graham and Rubio) are demanding that the U.S. shoot down Turkish planes to stop McCain’s “moderate rebels” from taking places like Manbij."

Can a quote be found, a citation that this is so? I don't think either have requested this and therefore, this seems to be pure libel. Very unchristian.
Quote
The archbishop, who reported the killing of two Christians on Thursday, in attacks on Qamishli, added: "Now the conflict has become even more serious and I fear that many will emigrate."

Half of Hassaké Catholics and Orthodox Christians are already thought to have fled with similar numbers exiting Qamishli.

http://aina.org/news/20191014190625.htm (http://aina.org/news/20191014190625.htm)

The first reaction has to be that the authors are deluded.

If Republicans dialed back their disagreement, it could likely be other factors at work, the Nukes in Turkey, who has been the SDF partners, Nato alliance and so on.

The Christians of that region have organizations in the US and news agencies such as the  Assyrian International News Agency  (http://aina.org/). I've liked Trump in many ways but we've also got to be careful to judge the truth as we can find it.  One can try to find what the Chaldeans, Assyrian communities say. I think they feel pretty bad from all of this.

Yeah, showing Turkey to have Jihadist tendencies per what the aiuthors say Trump may have done is really going to be of help to the Christians now.   *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Mod5 on October 16, 2019, 12:08:27 PM
Stop it.
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: don-o on October 16, 2019, 12:19:33 PM

"Now the same senators (Graham and Rubio) are demanding that the U.S. shoot down Turkish planes to stop McCain’s “moderate rebels” from taking places like Manbij."

Can a quote be found, a citation that this is so? I don't think either have requested this and therefore, this seems to be pure libel. Very unchristian.
The first reaction has to be that the authors are deluded.

 

I have requested that the writer provide backup. My conjecture he posing a possible course of action that advocated of unceasing involvement might call for. I will post any response I get.
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: don-o on October 16, 2019, 12:36:58 PM
I have requested that the writer provide backup. My conjecture he posing a possible course of action that advocated of unceasing involvement might call for. I will post any response I get.
John Zmirak
@JZmirak
·
15m
Replying to
@DonWiley4
 and
@MaxAbrahms
I was inferring from their calls to keep US forces there to resist a Turkish attack. Did they explicitly support a no-fly zone grounding Turkish planes? Not sure--but we would ABSOLUTELY have had to impose one if we backed their other policies. Or let Turks bomb Americans. @TomSea
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 16, 2019, 12:40:34 PM
@TomSea

You might want to ask the mod to move this one to the obits category.
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: Hoodat on October 16, 2019, 12:50:46 PM
Syrian Christians are already saved.
Title: Re: When the Dust Settles, Will Trump’s Syria Pivot End Up Saving Syrian Christians?
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 12:59:24 PM
 It doesn't look like either of them asked for a no-fly zone and my gosh, a no-fly zone to protect American troops? Anyway, it appears no Senator per se asked for this. Nor Representative.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2019-10-10/us-official-for-sdfs-political-arm-repeats-call-for-no-fly-zone-in-syria (https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2019-10-10/us-official-for-sdfs-political-arm-repeats-call-for-no-fly-zone-in-syria)

It's easy to think that though, a no-fly zone to protect the civilians who would indeed, consist of some Christians in seeing that a number exist in that part of the country.

See, that is interesting because I believe when these animosities started, some said part of the agreement or that we demanded a "no-fly zone", that's the spirit of this tweet. That was in the news though, easily could have been faulty information.:

Quote
The Tennessee Holler
@TheTNHoller
“The US made a deal with Turkey to have a no-fly zone... with that, the Kurds had to take down their defenses. The Americans asked them to do that. So now, they’re defenseless.”

A NASHVILLE Kurd explains why Trump’s betrayal is incredibly messed up.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1183375799065427968 (https://mobile.twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1183375799065427968)

Quote
Dr Widad Akreyi
🕊
@DrWidad_A
Dear @EmmanuelMacron
 

In 1991, when President Bush abandoned Kurds in North Iraq, France lobbied & worked hard for the establishment of a no-fly zone that helped save millions of civilians. Please intervene & prevent new massacres akin to those in Afrin

#SaveRojava #DrWidad

https://mobile.twitter.com/DrWidad_A/status/1181271004167000064 (https://mobile.twitter.com/DrWidad_A/status/1181271004167000064)

Quote
SyriacMilitaryMFS
@SyriacMFS
Joint call by Syriac Christian organisations demanding No-Fly Zone over North East Syria.

“Stop the Ottoman Turkish invading North East Syria”
“Don’t let Christianity be driven out of North East Syria”

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGeTiT5WwAIft04?format=jpg&name=small)

See more at: https://mobile.twitter.com/SyriacMFS/status/1182075650364121088 (https://mobile.twitter.com/SyriacMFS/status/1182075650364121088)

So, with this, it becomes confusing,  the Assyrian Christians themselves called for a no-fly zone.

So, his stance isn't thought out, what if the Syrian Christians had asked for this?? Then, if you deny them, you are exposing them to danger!
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 16, 2019, 01:07:21 PM
You might want to ask the mod to move this one to the obits category.

No..I am gonna shut it down if the personal attacks don't stop..
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
@mystery-ak     :                   This was indeed my fault, a former Florida Representative Lou Frey passed away and I meant to post it in obits. This is all my fault, no blame to @sneakypete I just posted this over there. .

But back to the subject, they are discussing this on Cspan now in the House, it seems like  Representative Thomas Reed- Republican (NY)  (https://reed.house.gov/) said if this resolution is passed, it "can" make military action required... so, I'm not saying he's right or wrong, noteworthy contribution to the discussion. Maybe the Republicans are indeed, supporting Trump on this.

It's a mess.

Representative Shimkus of Illinois, Republican came out saying he'd vote "Yes" on the resolution.

Shimkus served in the military and on some tours... so I'm not too familiar with him but I agree with him.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 16, 2019, 01:39:51 PM
No..I am gonna shut it down if the personal attacks don't stop..

@mystery-ak

Maybe I am a bit slower today than normal,but what does suggesting someone ask a death notice to be moved to the obit section have to do with a personal attack?

I just figured he was busy and distracted,and didn't pay attention to the thread title when he posted. I've done that myself.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 16, 2019, 01:41:47 PM
@mystery-ak

Maybe I am a bit slower today than normal,but what does suggesting someone ask a death notice to be moved to the obit section have to do with a personal attack?

I just figured he was busy and distracted,and didn't pay attention to the thread title when he posted. I've done that myself.

That wasn't what she was talking about.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 16, 2019, 01:45:17 PM
That wasn't what she was talking about.

@Cyber Liberty

Ok,I now understand less than I did before.

I'll get over it,though. No big deal.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 16, 2019, 01:53:56 PM
No..I am gonna shut it down if the personal attacks don't stop..

I am talking about the personal insults on this thread..
Title: Russia releases video of troops touring abandoned US base in Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 16, 2019, 02:16:29 PM
Russia releases video of troops touring abandoned US base in Syria
by Tim Pearce
 | October 16, 2019 01:53 PM



Russian police have released video showing Russian forces entering an abandoned U.S. military base in northern Syria after U.S. forces left the area.

The video shows evidence of a hasty exit by U.S. troops as Russian soldiers walk through the base and poke through food and other supplies apparently left over by the Americans. The video shows a kitchen and dining area stocked with soft drinks and food, some left out on tables half-eaten.

The video also shows personal items soldiers left behind such as books, a Game Boy, and equipment for several types of sports. U.S. troops also left behind several wheel loaders and other heavy equipment.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5dyWr7NAhY#)

more
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/russia-releases-video-of-troops-touring-abandoned-us-base-in-syria (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/russia-releases-video-of-troops-touring-abandoned-us-base-in-syria)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: aligncare on October 16, 2019, 02:17:10 PM
Trump’s critics, both democrats and republicans, were quick to condemn Trump when he redeployed 50 troops to the rear as Turkey was readying a major military offensive on the border with Syria. Outrage! democrats screamed. We are abandoning an ally!

Did democrats just urge the US into going to war with a NATO ally and risk the lives of American troops in a regional conflict that could potentially escalate and trigger a wider war? Sounds that way to me.

All of a sudden everybody’s Dick Cheney. War! War! War!

Democrats, the same people who condemned the Iraq war now condemning Trump for avoiding a war in the Middle East!

I wish they could keep their story straight.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
Quote
Did democrats just urge the US into war with a NATO ally and risk the lives of American troops in a regional conflict that could potentially escalate and trigger a wider war? Sounds that way to me.

Dems didn't dio that...Trump did.

As I asked above...

Syria is now gearing up their military to stop any further incursion into their country by Turkey...Russia and Iran are backing Syria. If Turkey invokes Article 5 should we come to their defense if Syria attacks them?  I mean we have an agreement of collective defense with Turkey and no such agreement with the Kurds.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 16, 2019, 02:49:16 PM
Dems didn't dio that...Trump did.

As I asked above...

Syria is now gearing up their military to stop any further incursion into their country by Turkey...Russia and Iran are backing Syria. If Turkey invokes Article 5 should we come to their defense if Syria attacks them?  I mean we have an agreement of collective defense with Turkey and no such agreement with the Kurds.

Just to make it interesting, and having never read said article, are you referring to Syria attacking Turkey w/in Syria's borders?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 03:04:57 PM
Just to make it interesting, and having never read said article, are you referring to Syria attacking Turkey w/in Syria's borders?

Yes.  And Turkey then invoking Article 5 of the NATO Charter.  Everyone defending what Trump did keeps saying talking about how Turkey is a NATO partner nation...we have no agreements with the Kurds.

Well what do we do when Syria...backed by at least the Russians...starts mixing it up with the Turks and suddenly Turkey wants the other NATO nations (including and specifically the U.S.) to come to it's aid?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 03:33:02 PM
Congress, the House passed the resolution against the withdrawal getting the 2/3rds majority, now, I gather the Senate will deal with this. That will be interesting.

This below btw, is being discussed in the Netherlands legislature. This is NOT DC.
 
Quote
@JoelVoordewind
 and
@Martijncda
.@Martijncda
says there is huge threat of ISIS fighters that will escape the prisons in northern Syria. "Freeing of the whole ISIS army is a big threat to everyone".
He says govt should evoke Article 4 of NATO’s founding treaty.
https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1184547850191024129 (https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/1184547850191024129)

At the present, I am more concerned with possibly evoking Article 4 of Nato as stated above.

Per article 5, already apparently, the PKK reportedly has attacked Turkey a number of times in Turkey, so, I'd almost ask why now???

In fact, there was one story I picked up from Ragip Soylu I believe, that during this current conflict,  a "mainly Kurd" town on the Turk side had been shelled. So, that would be an attack on Turkish soil.

Quote
Under Article 4, any member state can convene a meeting of NATO members to "consult" when it feels its independence or security are threatened. In practice, it has rarely been used and sends a strong political symbol to the greater world that NATO is concerned about a particular situation.

https://www.rferl.org/a/explainer-nato-articles-4-and-5/24626653.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/explainer-nato-articles-4-and-5/24626653.html)

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 03:37:37 PM
Moderator note: I've seen some things that I thought were pretty mild to get reported. So, herein, everyone behave themselves, this is not aimed at anyone in particular,  I caught flak last night.

So, what does TOS say? No violence, no racism, no profanity, this is a general framework.

I'm sorry if I did not answer any immediate concerns, everyone, we like each of you, I haven't seen anything hair-raising but maybe rude and crude.

So, for the forum, be nice!
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 03:43:12 PM
I've heard, TN may have more Kurds than anywhere in the US. Senator Marsha Blackburn TN is being somewhat vocal about all of this.  So, maybe some of our biggest cities have more but TN has a lot.

Quote
Sen. Marsha Blackburn
@MarshaBlackburn
Erdogan’s attack on our Kurdish partners has served to liberate ISIS prisoners, bolster the Assad regime, and strengthen Russia.

His invitation to the White House should be revoked.

https://twitter.com/MarshaBlackburn/status/1184483884546830337

Sounds like Erdogan will or maybe better said, "might" meet with Pence and Pompeo, none the less, Marsha is a very strong Republican.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 04:06:49 PM
Quote
Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
UPDATE: US - #Turkey - #Syria

• 354 House members vote against Trump & Turkey plans
• Schumer: Senate will pass
• Cheney introduces Sanctions Bill goes after arms sales to
🇹🇷

• Pence & Pompeo
✈️
 to TK
• Trump claims Kurdish PKK is > threat than ISIS

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1184560725919969280

Lots of Republicans supporting this,  yes, Trump talked about the threat between PKK and ISIS, I'm not sure of his exact words but it is something like what Joy writes above.

Also, at this press conference, I understand that while Trump lambasted the threat of the PKK,  was very complimentary of the SDF General Mazloum who is from the PKK per my understanding. Come on, this is just confusing.  Check the presser oneself for details.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 16, 2019, 04:17:28 PM
Yes.  And Turkey then invoking Article 5 of the NATO Charter.  Everyone defending what Trump did keeps saying talking about how Turkey is a NATO partner nation...we have no agreements with the Kurds.

Well what do we do when Syria...backed by at least the Russians...starts mixing it up with the Turks and suddenly Turkey wants the other NATO nations (including and specifically the U.S.) to come to it's aid?

Well, IANALTG, but I see no moral, at least, requirement to come to the "defense" of an aggressor "ally" on foreign soil. 

I suppose there are some grey areas, like if the Syrians used chemical attacks, but in general I'm of the opinion that if you don't want to get your rear kicked, don't start the fight in the first place.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 05:48:26 PM
Well, IANALTG, but I see no moral, at least, requirement to come to the "defense" of an aggressor "ally" on foreign soil. 

I suppose there are some grey areas, like if the Syrians used chemical attacks, but in general I'm of the opinion that if you don't want to get your rear kicked, don't start the fight in the first place.

I get that and I agree.  But Article 5 states that an attack agaisnt one is an attack agaisnt all.  It really puts us in a corner if they use it again like they did in 2014.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 16, 2019, 06:09:12 PM
I get that and I agree.  But Article 5 states that an attack agaisnt one is an attack agaisnt all.  It really puts us in a corner if they use it again like they did in 2014.

The Sick Man of NATO.  If Turkey wants an Article 5 to protect their troops in Syria, I consider that a problem with NATO's structure.  I can foresee the "Alliance" collapsing completely.  Members will start looking for ways to exit unilaterally. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 16, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
I get that and I agree.  But Article 5 states that an attack agaisnt one is an attack agaisnt all.  It really puts us in a corner if they use it again like they did in 2014.

Might not be such a bad thing.

Trump's not exactly a man of his word.  If he decides he doesn't like a deal, he just backs out of it.  So he might well refuse to come to Turkey's "defense", which would cause a lot of media heads to explode (not in a good way, unfortunately), but could lead to a "clarification" of (the understanding of) that rule to only pertain to attacks of aggression.

Not the way I'd like to see it cleared up, but at this point it's not like our word to our "allies" could mean much less than it does.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Sanguine on October 16, 2019, 06:19:10 PM
Might not be such a bad thing.

Trump's not exactly a man of his word.  If he decides he doesn't like a deal, he just backs out of it.  So he might well refuse to come to Turkey's "defense", which would cause a lot of media heads to explode (not in a good way, unfortunately), but could lead to a "clarification" of (the understanding of) that rule to only pertain to attacks of aggression.

Not the way I'd like to see it cleared up, but at this point it's not like our word to our "allies" could mean much less than it does.

I think, in this respect, he is a man of his word.  He's strictly "America first", and if we are bound by stupid treaties or accords I think he sees it in our best interests to find ways to not be bound. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 06:35:18 PM
Might not be such a bad thing.

Trump's not exactly a man of his word.  If he decides he doesn't like a deal, he just backs out of it.  So he might well refuse to come to Turkey's "defense", which would cause a lot of media heads to explode (not in a good way, unfortunately), but could lead to a "clarification" of (the understanding of) that rule to only pertain to attacks of aggression.

Not the way I'd like to see it cleared up, but at this point it's not like our word to our "allies" could mean much less than it does.

That's true...but then the second and third order effects of that are causing doubt in the other partner nations if we'd fulfill our obligations to them if they are attacked.  There's some new partner nations and recent full members that used to be WARSAW Pact and that's pissed off Putin to no end.  It's part of his motivation to invade the Crimea and Northern Ukraine.

And of course whether or not Trump thinks they'd be worthy or not of our help on any given day depends on his mood.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 06:36:40 PM
I think, in this respect, he is a man of his word.  He's strictly "America first", and if we are bound by stupid treaties or accords I think he sees it in our best interests to find ways to not be bound.

Isolationism by any other name has never worked...and because of the international nation/superpower we are in the 21st Century it's a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 09:10:02 PM
I get it.
I don't care.
It ain't right.

Then YOU fix it.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 09:12:42 PM
Quote
AP FACT CHECK: Trump Muddies Waters on US Syria Withdrawal
AP FACT CHECK: President Donald Trump is muddying the waters on America's withdrawal from Syria and the conditions on the ground there.
By Associated Press, Wire Service Content Oct. 16, 2019,

...

U.S. INTERVENTION IN SYRIA

TRUMP: "We were supposed to be in Syria for one month. That was 10 years ago."

...

PRISON RELEASE

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-10-16/ap-fact-check-trump-muddies-waters-on-us-syria-withdrawal (https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2019-10-16/ap-fact-check-trump-muddies-waters-on-us-syria-withdrawal)

When he speaks, it's more like boastfulness, I don't usually think it is that harmful, something like the prison release, he needs to get straight. I usually don't mind too much if he exaggerates matters, I don't think it's malicious, usually. Not lying like my saying "I did not eat that last piece of pie" or something.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 09:29:56 PM
Late to the party.

@Jazzhead

You are inclined to believe the Turks?

FFS

Trump made the right call.  End of story.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER SINCE THE CONCEPTION OF MODERN DAY INTERPRETATION OF RECORDED HISTORY.

PICK ANY SOURCE. ANY SOURCE.

And then sit here and debate it.

FFS

You are WORSE than what they are.



Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
Late to the party.

@Jazzhead

You are inclined to believe the Turks?

FFS

Trump made the right call.  End of story.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER SINCE THE CONCEPTION OF MODERN DAY INTERPRETATION OF RECORDED HISTORY.

PICK ANY SOURCE. ANY SOURCE.

And then sit here and debate it.

FFS

You are WORSE than what they are.

And none of that has the least bit to do with the fact Trump not only abandoned an ally to be slaughtered...he’s tossed them under the bus...backed over them and sped forward again with his stupid comments since he ordered the retreat.

And he’s tossing anyone under the bus who dares present facts that don’t agree with what he did.

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 09:39:47 PM
Dude, WTF?

@IsailedawayfromFR consider the source.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 16, 2019, 09:51:10 PM

FIX IT YOURSELF OR STFU. Career military. Welfare recipient.

Whatever Fred.  I’d be willing to bet in addition to my tax dollars paying my own salary and benefits I’ve funded a couple of your trips to rehab and the looney bin.

[Redacted] with your DU style military bashing.

I’ve contributed more to “fixing” things on my worst day than you’ve done in your entire weird life.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 10:00:34 PM
All articles or nearly all, will be swept into this bigger thread unless, said thread is active with many responses.

So, if anyone disagrees with this, let me know.

I said, about 2 days ago, that it looked like the WH was going into some damage control, now this article comes out.

Quote
Pence and Pompeo in damage control with Christians over Trump’s Kurdish crisis
By Michael Wilner and Bryan Lowry
October 16, 2019

WASHINGTON

Christian leaders were blindsided last week by President Donald Trump’s sudden withdrawal of U.S. forces from northern Syria that left thousands of Kurds vulnerable to attacks. They sought audience with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Vice President Mike Pence, the two officials they thought could convince the president to change course.

But both men, evangelical Christians, fell conspicuously silent. They took several days to call members of a politically active Christian community perplexed by a decision that they considered a betrayal of U.S. moral authority.

Kurdish forces have lost 12,000 soldiers on the front lines of a U.S.-led global coalition fight against Islamic State and have protected vulnerable religious minorities across Syria and Iraq.

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article236328633.html#storylink=cpy (https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article236328633.html#storylink=cpy)

Up go the groans with this one but anyway:

Quote
Senator Mitt Romney
@SenatorRomney
Iran’s power position has significantly increased with Turkey wiping out our friends, the Kurds, in Syria. Because the U.S. is abandoning its position in Syria, Assad is becoming stronger, and Iran is smiling ear to ear. This is a foreign policy disaster.

https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1184570055079747584 (https://twitter.com/SenatorRomney/status/1184570055079747584)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 10:02:03 PM
Whatever Fred.  I’d be willing to bet in addition to my tax dollars paying my own salary and benefits I’ve funded a couple of your trips to rehab and the looney bin.

GFYS with your DU style military bashing.

I’ve contributed more to “fixing” things on my worst day than you’ve done in your entire weird life.

Why don't you stand by the order of your President?

Your Commander in Chief?

And then tell me about bashing.









Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 10:09:16 PM
Groan at here I come, keep the tone of this thread civil... we have already been warned it could be shut down. Discuss the issues and discuss them civilly. I hate saying that, we like you all being here. Come on, for the good of the TBR.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 16, 2019, 10:09:56 PM
Hey, y'all....let's turn it down a little?  The neighbors are complaining.

@bigheadfred
@txradioguy
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 10:11:36 PM
"America First", just seeing a post on the previous page, "Make America Great Again", okay,

For the latter, MAGA, I'd think Eisenhower was probably the land of milk and honey for America.

"America First", hmmn, President Kennedy promised a man on the moon but also said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".... not a bad take.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 16, 2019, 10:14:03 PM
You are WORSE than what they are.
@bigheadfred
Good Lord that was a stupid thing to write.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 10:15:21 PM
Hey, y'all....let's turn it down a little?  The neighbors are complaining.

@bigheadfred
@txradioguy

Yeah. I'm out. 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 10:19:28 PM
@bigheadfred
Good Lord that was a stupid thing to write.

How so? Tell me how many more American lives you are willing to spend?

How much do you get back in change?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 16, 2019, 10:21:19 PM
Now,

I'm out.
Title: Trump Ignored Syria Exit Options that Could Have Kept Russia at Bay, NSC Official Says
Post by: TomSea on October 16, 2019, 10:34:01 PM
Quote
World
Trump Ignored Syria Exit Options that Could Have Kept Russia at Bay, NSC Official Says
By James LaPorta , Tom O'Connor AND Naveed Jamali On 10/16/19 at 4:51 PM EDT

n the weeks leading up to President Donald Trump's decision to exit Syria, his National Security Council staff had been preparing and presenting a variety of plans for an orderly withdrawal, a National Security Council official told Newsweek. The goal was to avoid a violent rush to fill a power vacuum opened by a sudden U.S. exit. These plans were abandoned completely by Trump in favor of an immediate retreat after a call with his Turkish counterpart. Within days of the decision, U.S. troops were handing over strategic positions to Russian forces.

The decision also set the stage for a deal between Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's government, an ally of Russia and Iran, and the U.S.-supported Syrian Democratic Forces, a mostly Kurdish militia that battled the Islamic State militant group, know commonly as ISIS, and now faced the wrath of Turkey and allied Syrian insurgents. Among senior U.S. policymakers, military officials and career professionals who have served in numerous administrations, the ensuing chaos of Trump's insistence on scrapping plans designed to prevent just that has damaged morale.

"Abandoning almost five years of training and development of an allied force, and gift-wrapping it for the Russians and Assad has been devastating to our morale," said the NSC official, who has direct knowledge of the U.S. evacuation efforts from northern Syria.

Read more at: https://www.newsweek.com/trump-ignored-syria-exit-options-russia-takeover-nsc-official-1465731 (https://www.newsweek.com/trump-ignored-syria-exit-options-russia-takeover-nsc-official-1465731)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 17, 2019, 12:18:03 AM
How so? Tell me how many more American lives you are willing to spend?

How much do you get back in change?
At the moment I can only think of one, they can keep the money.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 17, 2019, 12:21:19 AM
Jeremy Newberger @jeremynewberger
Dear ISIS.

I‘m warning you guys. Go easy on the Shariah Law stuff. Don’t be tough guys. And if you happen to find some nukes, I’ll be needing those back. You can thank me for the resurgence later with favors. Maybe we can meet for a photo-op.

Dollar Akbar,
Donald J. Trump
11:11 PM · Oct 16, 2019
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 08:43:31 AM
I think, in this respect, he is a man of his word.  He's strictly "America first", and if we are bound by stupid treaties or accords I think he sees it in our best interests to find ways to not be bound.

@Sanguine

Thank you!

America is NOT the "Worlds Daddy".
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 08:50:45 AM
mmn, President Kennedy promised a man on the moon but also said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".... not a bad take.

@TomSea

He might have said it,but that cowardly retard was just reading words someone else wrote for him.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 09:00:08 AM
@Sanguine

Thank you!

America is NOT the "Worlds Daddy".

So explain Saudi Arabia then.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 09:04:47 AM
So explain Saudi Arabia then.

@txradioguy

No problem. Bush Crime Family Pimps.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 09:07:54 AM
@txradioguy

No problem. Bush Crime Family Pimps.

They aren’t the ones sending 1,800 troops to Saudi. Trump is doing that as he’s claiming he’s trying to stop “endless wars”.

The Saudi deployment totally negates his other argument.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2019, 09:15:17 AM
Erdoğan 'thoroughly rejected' Trump letter and threw it 'in the bin': report
https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/466229-erdogan-thoroughly-rejected-trump-letter-and
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 09:19:08 AM
They aren’t the ones sending 1,800 troops to Saudi. Trump is doing that as he’s claiming he’s trying to stop “endless wars”.

The Saudi deployment totally negates his other argument.

@txradioguy

What we SHOULD be doing is sending 1800 missiles and attack aircraft to Saudi Arabia,and remove that chancre sore from the map as a nation.

I am not familiar with our treaties with Saudi Arabia as I get so mad I get brain freeze every time I think of it,but I SUSPECT Trump is only fulfilling a treaty obligation of some sort. Which doesn't make me happy,either. Screw them and the diseased camel they rode in on.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 09:20:00 AM
Erdoğan 'thoroughly rejected' Trump letter and threw it 'in the bin': report
https://thehill.com/policy/international/middle-east-north-africa/466229-erdogan-thoroughly-rejected-trump-letter-and

No surprise there.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 09:26:11 AM
@txradioguy

What we SHOULD be doing is sending 1800 missiles and attack aircraft to Saudi Arabia,and remove that chancre sore from the map as a nation.

I am not familiar with our treaties with Saudi Arabia as I get so mad I get brain freeze every time I think of it,but I SUSPECT Trump is only fulfilling a treaty obligation of some sort. Which doesn't make me happy,either. Screw them and the diseased camel they rode in on.

The only “obligations” Trump is possibly fulfilling with the Saudi deployment is his way of saying “thanks” to the Saudi’s for buying the entire 45th floor of Trump World Tower in NYC...a yacht he had to sell in the 90’s when he was teetering in bankruptcy and the purchase of the Plaza Hotel from him as well.

I would also say that Trump’s decision to abandon the Kurds has more to do with Trump Tower Istanbul than being sincere about getting us out of “endless wars”.

ETA: one of the tenants of Trump Tower Istanbul is Reza Zarrab.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Zarrab
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 09:57:52 AM
This article is a week old but it is anazing when even our foe, Iran was seeing this as being a bad move. Pretty interesting article.
Quote
Iran hints at the dangers of the US withdrawal from northern Syria
npasyria.com

Mohammad Javad Zarif, the Iranian Foreign Minister
Iran hints at the dangers of the US withdrawal from northern Syria
2019-10-08 16:27:33
Riyadh - North-Press Agency

Iran has announced its opposition to any Turkish military operation inside Syrian territories, after hours of a telephone call between the foreign ministers of Iran and Turkey, in which the Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif has reiterated his country’s rejection of the planned Turkish assault.

The statement of the Iranian Foreign Ministry was more assertive in rejection than the summary of the telephone conversation that was published by the Iranian News Agency, in which Iran has showed a first-of-its-kind understanding of the U.S. presence, considering that the withdrawal should have taken place before this time, which indicates that Tehran considers the withdrawal now as problematic.

The Iranian Foreign Ministry stressed that if such a Turkish move was carried out; it would not remove Turkey's security concerns, but would also cause extensive material damage and human casualties. Accordingly, the Islamic Republic of Iran opposes any possible military operations.

Read more at:  http://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=974&sub_blog=10&name_blog=Iran (http://npasyria.com/en/blog.php?id_blog=974&sub_blog=10&name_blog=Iran) hints at the dangers of the US withdrawal from northern Syria

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 10:08:17 AM
Quote
The only “obligations” Trump is possibly fulfilling with the Saudi deployment is his way of saying “thanks” to the Saudi’s for buying the entire 45th floor of Trump World Tower in NYC...a yacht he had to sell in the 90’s when he was teetering in bankruptcy and the purchase of the Plaza Hotel from him as well.

@txradioguy

So,he is rewarding them for a purchase they made 20+ years ago?


Quote
I would also say that Trump’s decision to abandon the Kurds has more to do with Trump Tower Istanbul than being sincere about getting us out of “endless wars”.

Of course you would.

Quote
ETA: one of the tenants of Trump Tower Istanbul is Reza Zarrab.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Zarrab


Zarrab isn't on any wanted lists,and hasn't escaped from any US prisons,so what would you do,have Trump's managers (Trump is too busy to be checking on residents) give him the boot and be sued?

The solution to problems with people like him are to simply whack them when they become too troublesome.
Title: US vice president meeting with Erdoğan in bid to end Turkey’s Syria incursion
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 10:08:47 AM
Quote
US vice president meeting with Erdoğan in bid to end Turkey’s Syria incursion
www.turkishminute.com (http://www.turkishminute.com)

(https://www.turkishminute.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/pence-erdogan.jpeg)

US Vice President Mike Pence landed in Ankara on Thursday in a bid to persuade Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan to halt his country’s military incursion into northeastern Syria, Deutsche Welle English service reported.

The vice president is accompanied by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and White House National Security Adviser Robert O’Brien.

Pence is meeting with Erdoğan, while Pompeo and other officials are expected to hold talks with their Turkish counterparts. Erdoğan initially refused to meet the US delegation, saying he would only speak to President Donald Trump, before backtracking.

More at:   https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/10/17/us-vice-president-meeting-with-erdogan-in-bid-to-end-turkeys-syria-incursion/ (https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/10/17/us-vice-president-meeting-with-erdogan-in-bid-to-end-turkeys-syria-incursion/) 
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 17, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
Let me make sure I understand the argument here:  Trump "allowed" Turkey to invade Syria as the payoff for a 20-year-old bribe?

Sounds like we need to trot out the Rat's Emolument Clause grounds for Impeachment again.  Can I get a bid for the 25th Amendment?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 10:42:23 AM
Let me make sure I understand the argument here:  Trump "allowed" Turkey to invade Syria as the payoff for a 20-year-old bribe?

Sounds like we need to trot out the Rat's Emolument Clause grounds for Impeachment again.  Can I get a bid for the 25th Amendment?

@Cyber Liberty

No Trump has current interests in Turkey that could be affected.  Namely the mixed use Trump Towers Istanbul.  The 20 year old stuff is with the Saudi's.


Bonus question: If what's going on in Turkey with the Kurds is "none of our business" why then is Trump sending VP Pence and SecState Pompeo to Turkey to tell Erdogan to "knock it off"?  Why send a letter to ERdogan saying the same thing if it's "none of our business"?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2019, 10:43:31 AM
Let me make sure I understand the argument here:  Trump "allowed" Turkey to invade Syria as the payoff for a 20-year-old bribe?

Sounds like we need to trot out the Rat's Emolument Clause grounds for Impeachment again.  Can I get a bid for the 25th Amendment?

Some people are invested in hating on Donald Trump. I still think it’s a pride thing. Except for that, it makes no sense to me. Sure, Trump can be blunt to a fault when he’s engaging with a political foe. But, the accomplishments, man, the accomplishments! What part of America First and American prosperity bothers these folks?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 10:44:55 AM
Quote
Zarrab isn't on any wanted lists,and hasn't escaped from any US prisons,so what would you do,have Trump's managers (Trump is too busy to be checking on residents) give him the boot and be sued?


You sure about that?

Quote
On 19 March 2016 he was arrested in the United States,[1] and is accused of being a member of an international criminal organization. He was charged with evading the US economic sanctions on Iran and money laundering[1] in an alleged racket scheme to help Iran bypass the sanctions, involving ministers of the Turkish government of then prime minister and now president of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

His father, Hossein Zarrab, had a close relationship with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who served as the President of Iran between 2005 and 2013. The U.S. Department of Treasury accused Hossein Zarrab of violating U.S. sanctions on Iran and slapped a $9.1 million fine against him. His fine was reduced to $2.3 million following his cooperation with the U.S. officials.

Zarrab was arrested by the FBI in Miami in the US on March 19, 2016 and was accused of bank fraud, money laundering and helping the Iranian government in evading the US economic sanctions on Iran to hinder its nuclear-weapons program. His charges; conspiracy to defraud, violating the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, money laundering, and bank fraud; could bring up to 70 years in prison if found guilty in the U.S. Federal Court.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
Some people are invested in hating on Donald Trump. I still think it’s a pride thing. Except for that, it makes no sense to me. Sure, Trump can be blunt to a fault when he’s engaging with a political foe. But, the accomplishments, man, the accomplishments! What part of America First and American prosperity bothers these folks?

Mayabe the fact that most of it is a propaganda myth
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 17, 2019, 11:21:29 AM
@Cyber Liberty

No Trump has current interests in Turkey that could be affected.  Namely the mixed use Trump Towers Istanbul.  The 20 year old stuff is with the Saudi's.

Here's the problem I have with making that argument:  Trump has business interests all over the world, because he's a businessman.  Has been for some time. 

The claim can be made, as the Democrats have repeatedly, that every single foreign policy decision he makes is based upon enriching himself through bribes and other quid pro qous.  It doesn't surprise me to hear Democrats make that claim because they hate businesses, but it is surprising that pro-business people on our side think it's a good argument to make, in the face of some decision we don't approve of

It adds an extra-constitutional requirement for the Office of President to insist on no business dealings anywhere.  That's an argument I expect from the Dems, but not from Republicans. 

It's reasonable to criticize the Syrian moves because he's wrong or ignorant, but I don't think it's fair to claim he was bribed into it without any evidence.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
Some people are invested in hating on Donald Trump. I still think it’s a pride thing. Except for that, it makes no sense to me. Sure, Trump can be blunt to a fault when he’s engaging with a political foe. But, the accomplishments, man, the accomplishments! What part of America First and American prosperity bothers these folks?

@aligncare

I am temped to say they don't care about the accomplishments,but the truth is they care more than we do,and that hatred has them obsessed. I am GUESSING most of them are life-long "party creatures",and they would hate him if he were the Son of God because he didn't play the game by party rules,he just barged in and started at the top. This offends them beyond belief.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 11:27:27 AM

You sure about that?

On 19 March 2016 he was arrested in the United States,[1] and is accused of being a member of an international criminal organization. He was charged with evading the US economic sanctions on Iran and money laundering[1] in an alleged racket scheme to help Iran bypass the sanctions, involving ministers of the Turkish government of then prime minister and now president of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.


@txradioguy

They why isn't he in jail?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 11:29:31 AM

 Here's the problem I have with making that argument:  Trump has business interests all over the world, because he's a businessman.  Has been for some time. 

@Cyber Liberty

That is one of the major reasons they hate him.


[/quote]
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 12:11:25 PM
@txradioguy

They why isn't he in jail?

From what I gather because he's in Turkey to avoid arrest.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 12:17:09 PM

It adds an extra-constitutional requirement for the Office of President to insist on no business dealings anywhere.  That's an argument I expect from the Dems, but not from Republicans.

That's because we've not had to deal with a "Republican" like Trump before.  Bush sold his share of the Rangers and was out of any of his oil and gas dealings before he ran for Governor to avoid conflict.  Cheney put everything he had into a blind trust before he resigned as the head of Halliburton to become the Veep.

Quote
It's reasonable to criticize the Syrian moves because he's wrong or ignorant, but I don't think it's fair to claim he was bribed into it without any evidence.

Erdogan has thretened several times since 2016 when Trump initially tried to implement his travel ban from certain Muslim countries to take Trump's name off the building and some have called for an outright seizure of it because they...Erdogan and membes of his party...say (incorrectly) "that Trump hates Muslims."

It may not be the driving force...but it's something to consider and keep in the back of your head when he makes these knee jerk policy decisions.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 12:29:49 PM
@TomSea

He might have said it,but that cowardly retard was just reading words someone else wrote for him.

Actually, you might be surprised by this but most Presidents don't write their own speeches.

@sneakypete

I don't know if Lincoln personally wrote the Gettysburg address but it should come as no surprise that most Presidents have had speech writers, I'm sure other politicians are the same. It doesn't change the substance though, too bad that the modern Democratic party is concerned about restrooms vs. landing on the moon and the like. .
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 17, 2019, 12:36:28 PM
Actually, you might be surprised by this but most Presidents don't write their own speeches.

@sneakypete

I don't know if Lincoln personally wrote the Gettysburg address but it should come as no surprise that most Presidents have had speech writers, I'm sure other politicians are the same. It doesn't change the substance though, too bad that the modern Democratic party is concerned about restrooms vs. landing on the moon and the like. .

@TomSea

You are right on both points. I doubt any president has written his own speeches solo. The job is just too complex to sum up in a speech. That's why they have speech writers and research teams.

Still,other than Obomber and Boy Jorge,neither of whom would have understood what they were reading,presidents "own" their speeches because they are supposed to read them and make suggestions before giving them.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 12:53:20 PM
Trump's has these stops in Texas, about 3 of them,

It will be interesting to see how Cruz votes, should it be voted on today, on this resolution that is against the withdrawal of troops in Syria (Yes vote)

Senate talking about this now....CSPAN, 351 Direct TV.

I really hope Cruz, Cotton, Sasse, Rubio all vote for this.... nothing personal per anyone.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 17, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
Pence is going over there, word is, Erdogan will only meet with Trump.

After all the fabrications, traps set, I consider them really, about Trump, Russia, Ukraine and so on, this really may be the big miscalculation. Like what is one thinking? To me, it's almost like one's "privileged" upbringing has blinded one to realities. Maybe this compares to the Bay of Pigs fiasco?

Gatestone Institute can get a bit far out for me but:

Protests still going on against the Regime, so they are not happy with them either.
https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16353 (https://nedaa-sy.com/en/news/16353)
Well, the New York Times heavily influenced the decision to not do the aerial phase of the invasion and take out Castro's Air and armor before the actual invasion.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Jazzhead on October 17, 2019, 01:21:36 PM
You are WORSE than what they are.

What the hell do you mean by that, @bigheadfred
Title: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2019, 01:59:38 PM
just breaking
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2019, 02:00:58 PM
Pence announces Syria ceasefire deal with Turkey
By Ellen Mitchell - 10/17/19 01:47 PM EDT

The United States and Turkey have reached a deal to temporarily suspend Ankara’s incursion into northern Syria, Vice President Pence announced Thursday.

Turkey will suspend its operations for 120 hours to allow Kurdish YPG fighters to withdraw from a designated safe zone along the Turkish and Syrian border.

“Today the United States and Turkey have agreed to a ceasefire in Syria, in order to allow from YPG forces to withdraw from the safe zone for 120 hours,” Pence said following more than five hours of negotiations between a U.S. delegation and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

DEVELOPING

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/466310-turkey-us-agree-to-temporary-ceasefire-in-syria
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 02:04:06 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/Charles_Lister

Some analysis. I am rather skeptical at this point.

120 hour cease-fire, YPG leave the "safe zone" which is, 20 miles in I believe, check for details.
Title: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: mystery-ak on October 17, 2019, 02:07:13 PM

Audrey Conklin
Reporter
October 17, 2019 10:24 AM ET

Two U.S. jet fighters bombed an American military base in Syria Wednesday to keep Turkey from taking control of the facility, the U.S. military said.

The decision to conduct a pre-planned airstrike on the base formerly used to train U.S.-allied Kurdish fighters — LaFarge Cement Factory — came after Turkish fighters began to move in on the facility, according to Col. Myles Caggins, a spokesman for the U.S.-led campaign against the Islamic State.

The airstrikes were meant to “reduce the facility’s military usefulness” for Turkey, a NATO ally, after President Donald Trump announced the withdrawal of roughly 1,000 U.S. soldiers from the region on Oct. 6, Caggins wrote in a Wednesday tweet, The Wall Street Journal reported.

more
https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/17/us-bombs-military-base-turkey/
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Sanguine on October 17, 2019, 02:15:25 PM
 :pop41:
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2019, 02:20:58 PM
Rush covering details now. It’s satisfying analysis ...and it tastes good, too!  :whistle:
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 17, 2019, 02:36:26 PM
Awwwwww..... crap.

I guess Nancy and Chucky (and the other knee-jerkers) will just have to come up with some other asinine issue to bash Trump over now. 

Que tragique.   :whistle:
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 02:36:44 PM
Why are we involved in this alleged "peace" plan if as people repeatedly point out here "this is a 400 year old war between Turkey and the Kurds" and "it's none of our business"?

 :2popcorn:
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2019, 03:13:58 PM
I'd watch closely, this conceivably could be good for Jihad which at least,  some Turk allies are.

OTOH, there is no solution here.

Perhaps refugees, 3.6 m in Turkey can be resettled in this area.

The biggest problem here is Assad but SDF already signed on with the government and the Kurds would be able to keep their territory in that deal.

See the problem arising?

It might be the same land.

Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Sanguine on October 17, 2019, 03:29:23 PM
Quote
Rep. Chip Roy
@RepChipRoy
·
34m
Regarding @realDonaldTrump
's ceasefire agreement:

I am optimistic at the announcement that there is an agreement that establishes a short-term cease-fire and paves the way for a permanent cease-fire in Northern Syria.
Show this thread
Rep. Chip Roy
@RepChipRoy
·
34m
Replying to
@RepChipRoy
Congress never formally voted to send forces to Syria. If we think forces should still be in Syria for the interest of the United States and our key allies – which may well be the case to support Israel, to protect against ISIS resurgence, and to prevent Russia, Iran, or other...
Rep. Chip Roy
@RepChipRoy
·
34m
malign influence in the region – then the administration should brief Congress, we should deliberate, and we should take specific action. For the sake of the men and women in uniform of the United States, we should do so decisively and with a clear, definable, achievable mission.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Sanguine on October 17, 2019, 03:32:46 PM
Quote
Red Viper 2.0 2020
@redwins3_first
·
12h
The Democrats were always preaching bring our #HerosHome, now that @POTUS
 is doing so their hate for him is more important than our service members lives. They would rather their return be in caskets......
@SpeakerPelosi
 I'm ashamed to call you & your party my fellow American's.
0:13
https://twitter.com/i/status/1184727084012310530
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 17, 2019, 03:35:49 PM
Quote
"It will be a pause in military operation for 120 hours, while the United States facilitates the withdrawal of YPG (the People's Protection Units) from the affected areas in the safe zone. And once that is completed, Turkey has agreed to a permanent ceasefire and the United States of America will work with Turkey -- will work with nations around the world -- to make sure peace and stability are the order of the day in this safe zone," Pence said at a news conference.

"Our team is already working with YPG personnel in the safe zone for an orderly withdrawal outside the 20-mile mark and we're going to go forward together to bring peace and security to this region, I'm very confident of that," Pence added.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/vice-president-mike-pence-seeks-syria-ceasefire-turkey/story?id=66345538
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Jazzhead on October 17, 2019, 03:38:11 PM
Why are we involved in this alleged "peace" plan if as people repeatedly point out here "this is a 400 year old war between Turkey and the Kurds" and "it's none of our business"?

Because we are trying to extricate ourselves from the mess. 
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 17, 2019, 03:39:04 PM
I'd watch closely, this conceivably could be good for Jihad which at least,  some Turk allies are.

OTOH, there is no solution here.

Perhaps refugees, 3.6 m in Turkey can be resettled in this area.

The biggest problem here is Assad but SDF already signed on with the government and the Kurds would be able to keep their territory in that deal.

See the problem arising?

It might be the same land. 

 ***suicide***
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 04:11:00 PM
Because we are trying to extricate ourselves from the mess.

Trump already did that.  Then he trashed the Kurds on the way out.  Said it's none of our business.

I guess it isn't right up to the point it is.  He's trying to have it both ways.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 04:14:44 PM
Quote
Congress never formally voted to send forces to Syria.

I guess Congressman Roy wasn't there when this happened:

Quote
In 2014 the Obama Administration went a step further, taking the position that the 2001 AUMF also served as legal authorization for military operations against ISIS as the successor to Al Qa’ida in Iraq (AQI), which had been an “associated force” of Al Qa’ida and had carried out substantial military activities against U.S. personnel in Iraq. Although ISIS severed its ties with Al Qa’ida, the Obama Administration took the position that the 2001 AUMF continued to authorize military activities against ISIS as the successor to AQI, because ISIS continued to operate in Iraq, including attacking U.S. personnel there. While U.S. operations against ISIS in Iraq and Syria have been broadly supported by Congress, reliance on the 2001 AUMF as a domestic legal justification was seen as a stretch by Senator Murphy and a number of his colleagues, but Congress and the Obama Administration were unable to come to agreement on an alternative AUMF that would replace the 2001 AUMF.

https://www.justsecurity.org/62511/wolf-sheeps-clothing-mcconnell-amendment-provide-president-rationale-military-operations-iran/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/62511/wolf-sheeps-clothing-mcconnell-amendment-provide-president-rationale-military-operations-iran/)


I don't recall any resistance from Chip Roy when Obama did this.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 04:37:08 PM
Everyone might want to slow down that victory lap:

Quote
Axios

@axios
Replying to @axios
Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu: "This is not a ceasefire. We will pause the operation for 120 hours in order for the terrorists to leave. We will only stop the operation if our conditions are met."

And by “terrorists” he’s not talking about ISIS.

Quote
"Pause in Turkey's operation in Syria is not a cease-fire, cease-fire can only happen between two legitimate sides" - Turkey's Cavusoglu
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: berdie on October 17, 2019, 04:59:51 PM
I'd watch closely, this conceivably could be good for Jihad which at least,  some Turk allies are.

OTOH, there is no solution here.

Perhaps refugees, 3.6 m in Turkey can be resettled in this area.

The biggest problem here is Assad but SDF already signed on with the government and the Kurds would be able to keep their territory in that deal.

See the problem arising?

It might be the same land.




This is moving so fast I can't fully study the history and keep up with new developments.

I just read that the Kurds have not signed onto this deal...and won't. Of course tomorrow is another day.

But where would they go if they did?
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 17, 2019, 05:36:56 PM
And it looks like the SDF are saying pump the brakes too:

Quote
BREAKING: SDF spokesman rejects terms of cease fire agreed between Turkey & US https://t.co/RImqoIybUv

— Conflict News (@Conflicts) October 17, 2019



NORTH PRESS AGENCY
@NPA_SY
#Breaking

N/E Syria Official Aldar Khalil:
We've previously stated that the proposal of Turkey's entering a depth of 30 km inside Syrian territories, is rejected.

402
12:28 PM - Oct 17, 2019
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 17, 2019, 05:41:53 PM
The US and Turkey can agree all they like and it won't make a damned bit of difference.  The Kurds, Syrians and Russia get a vote.

In the meantime, we are all free to question and condemn any and all politicians involved.  IOW, business as usual.  Let all the previous hatreds and preconceived notions flow through us.

Trump's fault.  Obastard's fault.  Bush's Fault (both), Reagan's fault, Carter's fault, Netanyahu's fault, Merkel's fault, Boris Johnspn's fault, Queen Maxima's fault.  Mandela's fault.  Al Sharpton's fault.  Lydon LaRouche's fault.  George McGovern's fault.  Everett Dirkson's fault.

Just pick somebody and blame the shit out of them.

They're all wrong.  It's MY fault.  Send me a bill.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: aligncare on October 17, 2019, 07:30:42 PM
@Cyber Liberty —May be time for a break, huh?

I understand your frustration. For me it’s a matter of having confidence in my initial assessment of Trump and in my decision to support him. It wasn’t hard to come to that decision. Profiles of his life and career have been in the news 35+ years. A couple days googling and you get the sense of the man and his political philosophy. I decided he could make a good president.

That, together with who his enemies are (the people I detest: corrupt journalists and politicians, condescending entertainers, cultural nazis, globalists—you know the players—it’s not hard for me to ignore them as liars.

I distrust partisan news reports until confirmed and I trust that Trump has America’s interests at heart. I suffer no angst about that.
Title: Re: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 18, 2019, 06:46:42 AM
Scorched Earth.
Title: Turkey violates agreement: attacks in Serêkaniyê, wall removed, enter mercenaries east the city
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 07:32:02 AM
Quote
Turkey violates agreement: attacks in Serêkaniyê, wall removed, enter mercenaries east the city
The Turkish occupation violates the cease-fire agreement, where its mercenaries launch attacks on SDF positions in the city of Serêkaniyê, while the Turkish occupation army removed the walls on the border and entered the mercenaries to the east of the city.

Despite the announcement of the ceasefire, the Turkish occupation state, which wants to exterminate the peoples of the region does not stop its attempts to occupy the region, and in this context, ANHA correspondents from the city of Serêkaniyê said that the mercenaries of the Turkish occupation army are still attacking the SDF points in al-Shohada roundabout where the city hospital is densely crowded with wounded civilians.

Read more at: https://hawarnews.com/en/haber/turkey-violates-agreement-attacks-in-serkaniy-wall-removed-enter-mercenaries-east-the-city-h12243.html
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 10:31:08 AM
If I've criticized Bush and Obama both for what they've done, then, it's only fair to also criticize Trump, after all, as numerous people have said, this is much like what Obama did.

It's only fair.  To do differently is being hypocritical.  Remind me that Trump has never criticized Bush.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wmJBWO9Dpg#)

I think this sums it up very well, he'll take some flak to it.

We don't need an echo chamber like some other websites.

You know, this looks like no warning was given to the Kurds, just yanking ourselves out and leaving them hanging. See, this is the problem, it could have been done better if it is done at all.

Now, I hear, there's going to be some sort of Vets demonstration in support of Trump.
Title: Re: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 10:40:31 AM
Scorched Earth.

It's also the result of a hastily ordered not well thought out order to retreat.

They certainly didn't destroy everything...there will be things found that will be useful to the Russians and the Iranians.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 11:05:03 AM
Quote
Syria: Damning evidence of war crimes and other violations by Turkish forces and their allies
18 October 2019, 00:01 UTC

Turkish military forces and a coalition of Turkey-backed Syrian armed groups have displayed a shameful disregard for civilian life, carrying out serious violations and war crimes, including summary killings and unlawful attacks that have killed and injured civilians, during the offensive into northeast Syria, said Amnesty International today.

The organization gathered witness testimony between 12 and 16 October from 17 people including medical and rescue workers, displaced civilians, journalists, local and international humanitarian workers, as well as analyzing and verifying video footage and reviewing medical reports and other documentation.

The information gathered provides damning evidence of indiscriminate attacks in residential areas, including attacks on a home, a bakery and a school, carried out by Turkey and allied Syrian armed groups. It also reveals gruesome details of a summary killing in cold blood of a prominent Syrian-Kurdish female politician, Hevrin Khalaf, by members of Ahrar Al-Sharqiya, part of the Syrian National Army, a coalition of Syrian armed groups equipped and supported by Turkey.

Read more at: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/syria-damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-and-other-violations-by-turkish-forces-and-their-allies/ (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/syria-damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-and-other-violations-by-turkish-forces-and-their-allies/)

Quote
Commentary: A Chicago doctor’s view: How Trump’s betrayal of U.S. ideals magnifies suffering in Syria
Zaher Sahloul

Every time we think the humanitarian situation in Syria has bottomed out, it gets even worse.

More than 160,000 Syrians have been displaced so far in the new chapter of this crisis, and many more are expected to suffer. President Donald Trump’s abrupt and capricious decision to withdraw American troops from northern Syria is not the first betrayal of Syrians by our policymakers. Nor is it the first strategic blunder.

As a physician and humanitarian who has spent nine years providing health care in Syria and other disaster zones, I witnessed firsthand the impact of our policies, or lack of them, on the ground. My organization, MedGlobal, partners with local organizations in disaster zones, treating refugees and victims of war.

Read more at: https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-syria-betrayal-doctor-20191016-20191015-tzvs7v342zdbfmulo4tijxy5am-story.html (https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-opinion-syria-betrayal-doctor-20191016-20191015-tzvs7v342zdbfmulo4tijxy5am-story.html)

Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 18, 2019, 11:41:24 AM
If I've criticized Bush and Obama both for what they've done, then, it's only fair to also criticize Trump, after all, as numerous people have said, this is much like what Obama did.

Oh, FFS   ---- no it is not like what Obama did.   *****rollingeyes***** 

Obama started a war; President Trump is working to end one.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 12:01:21 PM
If I've criticized Bush and Obama both for what they've done, then, it's only fair to also criticize Trump, after all, as numerous people have said, this is much like what Obama did.

It's only fair.  To do differently is being hypocritical.  Remind me that Trump has never criticized Bush.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wmJBWO9Dpg#)

I think this sums it up very well, he'll take some flak to it.

We don't need an echo chamber like some other websites.

You know, this looks like no warning was given to the Kurds, just yanking ourselves out and leaving them hanging. See, this is the problem, it could have been done better if it is done at all.

Now, I hear, there's going to be some sort of Vets demonstration in support of Trump.

Criticizing Trump when he does or says something that warrants criticism is one thing....everyone's allowed to do that if it is valid criticism....

but to even remotely compare Trump to Obama in ANY way is, quite frankly, absurd and wrong-headed in my humble opinion.  I see no similarity whatsoever.  Obama = pro-Muslim/Trump = pro-Jew.   It just doesn't follow.   Obama = anti-US military/Trump = pro-US military.   And that's just two things off the top of my head sans java.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 18, 2019, 12:37:50 PM
Quote
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/874276197357596672/kUuht00m_bigger.jpg)  Donald J. Trump‏
Verified account  @realDonaldTrump

Just spoke to President @RTErdogan of Turkey. He told me there was minor sniper and mortar fire that was quickly eliminated. He very much wants the ceasefire, or pause, to work. Likewise, the Kurds want it, and the ultimate solution, to happen. Too bad there wasn’t.....

.....this thinking years ago. Instead, it was always held together with very weak bandaids, & in an artificial manner. There is good will on both sides & a really good chance for success. The U.S. has secured the Oil, & the ISIS Fighters are double secured by Kurds & Turkey....

....I have just been notified that some European Nations are now willing, for the first time, to take the ISIS Fighters that came from their nations. This is good news, but should have been done after WE captured them. Anyway, big progress being made!!!!


8:42 AM - 18 Oct 2019

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1185219643432230913

Title: Syria Kurds accuse Turkey of violating cease-fire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 12:38:47 PM
Syria Kurds accuse Turkey of violating cease-fire
October 18, 2019, 7:21 AM PDT


Turkish-backed Syrian rebels seize border town of Ras al Ain - official


CEYLANPINAR, Turkey (AP) — The Kurdish-led administration in northern Syria accused Turkey on Friday of violating a U.S.-brokered cease-fire that went into effect overnight, as fighters from both sides clashed in and around a border town that has been one of the fiercest fronts in the Turkish invasion.

The town of Ras al-Ayn was emerging as an immediate test for the five-day cease-fire agreed on by Washington and Ankara. Before the deal's announcement, Turkish-backed forces had encircled the town and were battling fierce resistance from Kurdish fighters inside.

The Syrian Kurds raised further uncertainty over a cease-fire deal that already was vague on key points and left significant questions unanswered. The self-rule administration said some provisions of the cease-fire deal "need further discussion with the United States."

It did not specify which provisions, but the Kurds have not publicly committed to a central term of the deal — a pullout of their fighters from the border region. A spokesman for the Kurdish-led fighters said Friday they were not withdrawing from Ras al-Ayn because Turkish forces are still besieging and shelling it.

Criticism of the cease-fire deal — which President Donald Trump called "a great day for civilization" — mounted. EU Council President Donald Tusk said it was "not a cease-fire, it is a demand for the capitulation of the Kurds" and called on Turkey to immediately halt its operation in northeast Syria. French President Emmanuel Macron called the Turkish operation "madness."

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/fighting-kurdish-held-syrian-town-062059468.html (https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/fighting-kurdish-held-syrian-town-062059468.html)

Trump "Kurds were great"  "Great day for the Kurds"  " I just want to thank and congratulate, though President Erdogan.  He's a friend of mine and I am glad we didn't have a problem" because frankly he's a hell of a leader.  He did a terrific thing.  What he did was very smart...………"

https://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/video/4012177002/trump-credits-tough-love-for-5-day-cease-fire/ (https://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/video/4012177002/trump-credits-tough-love-for-5-day-cease-fire/)
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 12:50:43 PM
Criticizing Trump when he does or says something that warrants criticism is one thing....everyone's allowed to do that if it is valid criticism....

but to even remotely compare Trump to Obama in ANY way is, quite frankly, absurd and wrong-headed in my humble opinion.  I see no similarity whatsoever.  Obama = pro-Muslim/Trump = pro-Jew.   It just doesn't follow.   Obama = anti-US military/Trump = pro-US military.   And that's just two things off the top of my head sans java.

Just my two cents.

Lindsay Graham, the Congressman from Florida per posted in these forums have made the comparison that Obama ill-advisedly withdrew troops from Iraq in 2011, then, came about ISIS and by the way, over that decision, Trump  called Obama and in fact, Hillary too, "Founders of ISIS", it's all in the news.

So, we are just comparing these two situations, we aren't talking about Prayer in Schools or Taxes or Healthcare or anything else, we are uniquely talking about this situation.

2011, Obama withdraws troops in Iraq versus everyone's advice including his advisors, ISIS rises.

2019, Trump abruptly pulls troops out and a lot of disaster has already happened.

This has been posted in the forum amply to have to hunt down these stories again.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 12:57:28 PM
Quote
but to even remotely compare Trump to Obama in ANY way is, quite frankly, absurd and wrong-headed

@XenaLee

It's neither if the make the same exact mistakes with the military.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 01:01:17 PM
Lindsay Graham, the Congressman from Florida per posted in these forums have made the comparison that Obama ill-advisedly withdrew troops from Iraq in 2011, then, came about ISIS and by the way, over that decision, Trump  called Obama and in fact, Hillary too, "Founders of ISIS", it's all in the news.

So, we are just comparing these two situations, we aren't talking about Prayer in Schools or Taxes or Healthcare or anything else, we are uniquely talking about this situation.

2011, Obama withdraws troops in Iraq versus everyone's advice including his advisors, ISIS rises.

2019, Trump abruptly pulls troops out and a lot of disaster has already happened.

This has been posted in the forum amply to have to hunt down these stories again.

Again, conflating Obama's actions back then, which was fulfilling every leftists wet dream of destroying all progress made in Iraq by a complete pullout... resulting in the rise of ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood.... with Trump pulling 50 guys out of Syria AFTER ISIS has been contained is not even close to being comparable, no matter how the idiot rabid left spins it.   We were never supposed to stay there, it was only supposed to be 30 days, the job was done, fricking END the mission FFS.  And again... the problem isn't Trump pulling 50 guys out of Syria.....the problem was Turkey ... a "NATO ally" deciding to take advantage and invade.  Put the blame where it belongs.

Sheesh.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 01:04:19 PM
It's almost absurd Trump did this UNLESS there is good reason, maybe there is. I hope this situation clears up but if it was a bad decision, then, yes, this is very similar to Obama's 2011 decision to withdraw troops from Iraq against the advise of practicvally everyone, Leon Pineda and so on.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 01:05:10 PM
@XenaLee

It's neither if the make the same exact mistakes with the military.

But ..... that's not happening.... and you know damned well that Obama pulling us out of Iraq was no mistake by him.... he did it deliberately knowing full well the outcome... no doubt at the behest of his main backer, Soros.  If you want to place blame here, blame Erdogan/Turkey.  We shouldn't have to be expected to stay in Syria forever just because there are bad actors posing as NATO allies.  JS...
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 01:07:00 PM
It's almost absurd Trump did this UNLESS there is good reason, maybe there is. I hope this situation clears up but if it was a bad decision, then, yes, this is very similar to Obama's 2011 decision to withdraw troops from Iraq against the advise of practicvally everyone, Leon Pineda and so on.

No.   It's not.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 01:09:46 PM
But ..... that's not happening.... and you know damned well that Obama pulling us out of Iraq was no mistake by him.... he did it deliberately knowing full well the outcome... no doubt at the behest of his main backer, Soros.  If you want to place blame here, blame Erdogan/Turkey.  We shouldn't have to be expected to stay in Syria forever just because there are bad actors posing as NATO allies.  JS...

I'm referring specifically to their treatment of the Kurds as our allies.  Both Presidents have left them hung out to dry.  I'm not denying the other parts of what you say.  But in this instance with the Kurds both Obama and Trump have behaved in smiliar fashion towards them.
Title: Re: Syria Kurds accuse Turkey of violating cease-fire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 01:10:58 PM
I would be very careful about reading too much in to Trumps victory and praise of the Extremist Muslim Erdogan.

US hails Turkish cease-fire; Kurds must vacate border area
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — The U.S. and Turkey agreed Thursday to a cease-fire in the Turks’ deadly attacks on Kurdish fighters in northern Syria, requiring the Kurds to vacate the area in an arrangement that largely solidifies Turkey’s position and aims in the weeklong conflict.
Oct. 18 2019 @ 12:20am

Excerpt:

The commander of Kurdish-led forces in Syria, Mazloum Abdi, told Kurdish TV, “We will do whatever we can for the success of the cease-fire agreement.” But one Kurdish official, Razan Hiddo, declared that Kurdish people would refuse to live under Turkish occupation.

https://www.newstribune.com/news/national/story/2019/oct/18/us-hails-turkish-cease-fire-kurds-must-vacate-border-area/800278/ (https://www.newstribune.com/news/national/story/2019/oct/18/us-hails-turkish-cease-fire-kurds-must-vacate-border-area/800278/)

This isn't really a cease fire.  Not surprised Donald Trump is taking a victory dance.  Talking about how Erdogan is a friend...……..etc.  Victory only comes when there actually is a cease fire and Turkey is no longer bombing or persecuting people.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
But ..... that's not happening.... and you know damned well that Obama pulling us out of Iraq was no mistake by him.... he did it deliberately knowing full well the outcome... no doubt at the behest of his main backer, Soros.  If you want to place blame here, blame Erdogan/Turkey.  We shouldn't have to be expected to stay in Syria forever just because there are bad actors posing as NATO allies.  JS...

Fine, different intentions, similar same bad decision, if  you are just saying all this to say you are right in the argument, fine. You are right, the results can be very similar as well. In fact, some bad things have happened already.

If I didn't say it already, it sounds like we may have hearings on this and we can learn more.

Don't stay forever... but how many places are we in the world? Even Somaliland? Somalia, we are already pretty well spread out, South Korea, Japan, Germany.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 01:19:06 PM
No.   It's not.

Okay, we agree to disagree.

Graham: 'Obama-like mistake' for Trump to withdraw troops from Syria
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/422063-lindsey-graham-obama-like-mistake-for-trump-to-withdraw-troops-from-syria (https://thehill.com/policy/defense/422063-lindsey-graham-obama-like-mistake-for-trump-to-withdraw-troops-from-syria)

Okay, Lindsey gets berated here pretty well but how about this?

And disagree with this:

Quote
'ISIS 2.0': GOP Congressman, Former Green Beret, Blasts Trump's US Troop Withdrawal from Syria

...

"We've set the conditions for ISIS 2.0 ... and we're repeating the mistakes of the Obama administration, which pulled out of Iraq too soon and led to all of this in the first place, except we won't have any local allies to fight them again,"
'ISIS 2.0': GOP Congressman, Former Green Beret, Blasts Trump's US Troop Withdrawal from Syria

https://www.newsweek.com/isis-2-0-warning-syria-pullout-michael-waltz-florida-republican-tells-donald-trump-turkey-1465114 (https://www.newsweek.com/isis-2-0-warning-syria-pullout-michael-waltz-florida-republican-tells-donald-trump-turkey-1465114)

I see the light @XenaLee  , I see the light now,  you know more than a Green Beret.

It's a matter of opinion BUT, I note, people do say this and to be fair, people say what you do. There is no right or wrong in the end, just our opinions here, our speculation.
Title: Syrian American group says Trump deserves Nobel Peace Prize, US troops should come home
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 01:38:27 PM
Quote
Syrian American group says Trump deserves Nobel Peace Prize, US troops should come home
Vandana Rambaran

A Syrian American doctor is spearheading an initiative to nominate President Trump for a Noble Peace Prize after Trump managed to convince Putin to throttle back on plans to seize the Syrian refugee city of Idlib in 2018, an attack that could have potentially killed upwards of 3 million civilians.

Dr. Tarek Kteleh, a rheumatologist in Indiana and board member of a group that promotes national security issues in Syria called Citizens for a Secure and Safe America, told Fox News Thursday that Trump "deserves credit" for preventing the potentially deadly attack on one of the last remaining cities not under the control of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad.

The Syrian military and their Russian and Iranian allies surrounded Idlib, a sanctuary city that nearly 4 million civilians fled to, ready to attack and push out the Syrian rebels by the end of summer 2018. The small province of land was a necessary stronghold for rebel forces, vital to preventing the dictator from accessing control of the Northern portion of the Middle East.

Read more at: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/syrian-american-group-says-trump-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-us-troops-should-come-home (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/syrian-american-group-says-trump-deserves-nobel-peace-prize-us-troops-should-come-home)

Covering both sides, get as much info as one can.

Most articles on Syria posted will be merged with the big thread after 24 hours.
Title: Re: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 18, 2019, 01:58:20 PM
It's also the result of a hastily ordered not well thought out order to retreat.

They certainly didn't destroy everything...there will be things found that will be useful to the Russians and the Iranians.
To be sure. There will always be things to scrounge or salvage, and some will survive intact. It really takes a lot of effort to render everything left behind useless.
Title: Re: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 02:00:38 PM
To be sure. There will always be things to scrounge or salvage, and some will survive intact. It really takes a lot of effort to render everything left behind useless.

Could have been done differently...
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 02:04:49 PM
Fine, different intentions, similar same bad decision, if  you are just saying all this to say you are right in the argument, fine. You are right, the results can be very similar as well. In fact, some bad things have happened already.

If I didn't say it already, it sounds like we may have hearings on this and we can learn more.

Don't stay forever... but how many places are we in the world? Even Somaliland? Somalia, we are already pretty well spread out, South Korea, Japan, Germany.

I have no idea what our "mission" or national interests are in Somalia... the only thing I can imagine is that some leftist idiot in DC wants it so.  But I'm against "spreading out" our US military personnel unless there is a definite mission to accomplish for the USA.   We are not the rest of the world's babysitters, after all.   Especially considering how some of the world returns that favor by dissing America.  As far as I'm concerned, the US has very few allies.  Israel, Japan, and the UK.   The rest of the nations seem to only do "lip service" when it comes to acting like a US ally. 

And by the way.... I don't have to "be right".  I'm stubborn and opinionated, true.   But I can handle it when folks disagree with me.   If that were not the case, I wouldn't be here.   happy77
Title: Re: US Bombs Its Own Base In Syria To Prevent NATO Ally Turkey From Using It
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 18, 2019, 02:09:13 PM
Could have been done differently...
As could so much else...

Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
It's almost absurd Trump did this UNLESS there is good reason, maybe there is. I hope this situation clears up but if it was a bad decision, then, yes, this is very similar to Obama's 2011 decision to withdraw troops from Iraq against the advise of practicvally everyone, Leon Pineda and so on.

Of all the Syrian refugees that have settled in the U.S. only a small percentage have been Christians. The same is true in Turkey.  They are mainly Muslims.  Inspires me to question the agenda of settling the refugee's where the Kurds are living on the border.  We fought alongside with the Kurds to rid the country of ISIS.  If the Kurds and the U.S have been fighting ISIS in that region then it stands to reason that many of the refugee's that Turkey is planning on resettling there are extremist Muslims.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 02:13:22 PM
I have no idea what our "mission" or national interests are in Somalia... the only thing I can imagine is that some leftist idiot in DC wants it so.  But I'm against "spreading out" our US military personnel unless there is a definite mission to accomplish for the USA.   We are not the rest of the world's babysitters, after all.   Especially considering how some of the world returns that favor by dissing America.  As far as I'm concerned, the US has very few allies.  Israel, Japan, and the UK.   The rest of the nations seem to only do "lip service" when it comes to acting like a US ally. 

And by the way.... I don't have to "be right".  I'm stubborn and opinionated, true.   But I can handle it when folks disagree with me.   If that were not the case, I wouldn't be here.   happy77

@XenaLee

FYI Somalia is the al Shabab terrorist group.  They are a Taliban/al Qaeda linked group. 

This whole isolation thing is a pre-9/11 mindset that we can't go back to.  Look in history at what happens every time the U.S. adopts a backwards thinking policy of isolation or non intervention.

We do have a lot more allies than that and they do more than pay lipservice to that alliance.  Despite what some might have you think we don't just toss our military here and there throughout the world jsut for shits and giggle or to try and be some kind of "empire" or because of tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.  We are also not the world's babysitters...I get so freaking tired of that completely false term...especaially since in implies I'm one of those babysitters.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 02:30:33 PM
@XenaLee

FYI Somalia is the al Shabab terrorist group.  They are a Taliban/al Qaeda linked group. 

This whole isolation thing is a pre-9/11 mindset that we can't go back to.  Look in history at what happens every time the U.S. adopts a backwards thinking policy of isolation or non intervention.

We do have a lot more allies than that and they do more than pay lipservice to that alliance.  Despite what some might have you think we don't just toss our military here and there throughout the world jsut for shits and giggle or to try and be some kind of "empire" or because of tinfoil hat conspiracy theory.  We are also not the world's babysitters...I get so freaking tired of that completely false term...especaially since in implies I'm one of those babysitters.

So what, exactly, are we doing there?   What's the mission?   Is there any end to that mission and if so, when?  If not, why not?   I never advocated isolationism, far from it.  But dammit, there needs to be a "plan", which means a start and an end date to the mission.  Otherwise, it's a case of "there's no plan but to spread US forces throughout the world at taxpayer expense for no specifically defined purpose".  I am vehemently against that "no defined purpose" bit.   And yes, I was in favor of going into Iraq.  But pulling out of Iraq that early equated to all those US lives lost for NOTHING, IMO.

As for the term babysitters.... if the shoe/term fits....lol.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 18, 2019, 02:41:13 PM
Quote
"American servicemen and women should not be at the center of ancient sectarian conflicts all over the world." -- DJT Oct 17, 2019
Title: Re: Syrian American group says Trump deserves Nobel Peace Prize, US troops should come home
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 18, 2019, 02:41:41 PM
Most articles on Syria posted will be merged with the big thread after 24 hours.

Is this story closely enough related to the present Turkish operation in Syria?  You might consider keeping this thread free-standing.  Your call...
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 02:56:03 PM
So what, exactly, are we doing there?   What's the mission?   Is there any end to that mission and if so, when?  If not, why not?

Quote
This week President Donald Trump signed an executive order extending a presidential declaration of a national emergency concerning Somalia for another year, calling the Islamist insurgency plaguing that country an "unusual and extraordinary threat" to the US.
 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/politics/us-military-somalia-mission/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/politics/us-military-somalia-mission/index.html)

We have Special Forces there training units in the Somali Army in counter terrorism opeartions.

So...you know...we don't have to be a babysitter there.



Quote
But dammit, there needs to be a "plan", which means a start and an end date to the mission.
 

Those plans are beteween the DoD that nations ministry of defense and the respective leaders of those countries and it doesn't revolve around a time table you think it should have.

Despite the actual combat opertions getting all the media attention...there is far more military to military training that goes on than you care to realize that goes on aroundthe world on a daily basis.  That training...those partnerships that are formed are designed to help those militaries take care of things in their regions so we don't have to "babysit".

It's happening right now in the Baltics...in Eastern Europe...in Africa and in Asia...with countries that consider us an ally.



Quote
Otherwise, it's a case of "there's no plan but to spread US forces throughout the world at taxpayer expense for no specifically defined purpose".  I am vehemently against that "no defined purpose" bit.   And yes, I was in favor of going into Iraq.  But pulling out of Iraq that early equated to all those US lives lost for NOTHING, IMO.

The purpose is there...there's a legit mission...but unless you do the research on your own...talk to military people that know what the hell we're doing...you won't know because the media doesn't report on it because it doesn't fit their narrative or the narrative of the radical isolationists and non interventionists.

Quote
As for the term babysitters.... if the shoe/term fits....lol.

It doesn't fit.  It's a bullshit term coined by Libierals.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 02:57:29 PM


What he knows about world history and all things military wouldn't fill a thimble.  And your quote just goes to prove that.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 18, 2019, 03:06:36 PM
What he knows about world history and all things military wouldn't fill a thimble. 

And what you know is all that you've been programmed to know ----  so take your stupid snark somewhere else. 
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 03:18:36 PM
 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/politics/us-military-somalia-mission/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/politics/us-military-somalia-mission/index.html)

We have Special Forces there training units in the Somali Army in counter terrorism opeartions.

So...you know...we don't have to be a babysitter there.

And see.... there is a perfect example of where and why I disagree.... totally.   This Somalia EO was an extension of one Obama did in 2009.  So... ten friggin years later.... we're still there... doing what?   Training?   How really stupid are they if it takes that long to train?   Thanks for posting a perfect example of what I'm talking about re: that "no defined plan".  And yeah, after ten friggin years, it has morphed into a babysitting program.... apparently.
 

Quote
Those plans are beteween the DoD that nations ministry of defense and the respective leaders of those countries and it doesn't revolve around a time table you think it should have.

We're talking about opinions here re: approval vs. disapproval.   I never said their time table had to revolve around my opinion.  I just think it would be nice if they HAD a damned time table.

Quote
Despite the actual combat opertions getting all the media attention...there is far more military to military training that goes on than you care to realize that goes on aroundthe world on a daily basis.  That training...those partnerships that are formed are designed to help those militaries take care of things in their regions so we don't have to "babysit".

It's happening right now in the Baltics...in Eastern Europe...in Africa and in Asia...with countries that consider us an ally.

And that's fine.... us training and helping them.   But it shouldn't have to just go on for-frickin-ever.

Quote
The purpose is there...there's a legit mission...but unless you do the research on your own...talk to military people that know what the hell we're doing...you won't know because the media doesn't report on it because it doesn't fit their narrative or the narrative of the radical isolationists and non interventionists.

And then.... sometimes... the purpose is to just waste US resources and military lives... like when the radical, anti-military Democrats are in control.

Quote
It doesn't fit.  It's a bullshit term coined by Libierals.

I use it.   And I am anything but a "liberal".   I think it applies perfectly to some instances.   Especially ones where we've been in a foreign nation "training" for a decade. 






Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 03:37:35 PM
And see.... there is a perfect example of where and why I disagree.... totally.   This Somalia EO was an extension of one Obama did in 2009.  So... ten friggin years later.... we're still there... doing what?   Training?   How really stupid are they if it takes that long to train?   Thanks for posting a perfect example of what I'm talking about re: that "no defined plan".  And yeah, after ten friggin years, it has morphed into a babysitting program.... apparently.

Take it up with the PResident...and the terrorists we continue to see to eradicate.

I mean seriously would you rather us train units of the fledgling Somali Army to fight the terrorists...or would you prefer as we try to obilterate them outsele to have a second Black Hawk down situation?  Because that becomes the real possibility if we don't take the time and effort now..regardless of how long that timeframe is...to train them to fight on their own soil.
 

Quote
We're talking about opinions here re: approval vs. disapproval.   I never said their time table had to revolve around my opinion.  I just think it would be nice if they HAD a damned time table.

They do...but it's not public for obvious reasons and it's clearly not going to be one that you will ever agree with.

Quote
And that's fine.... us training and helping them.   But it shouldn't have to just go on for-frickin-ever.

Why not?  Some of the training exercises are 2-3 months out of an entire year.  We keep those ties and continue to hold joint annual exercises with different nations in the event we find ourselves fighting alongside them in some future conflict.  Helps thigns go a lot easier and cuts down on the body count.

Quote
And then.... sometimes... the purpose is to just waste US resources and military lives... like when the radical, anti-military Democrats are in control.

I just...I can't even... *****rollingeyes*****

Quote
I use it.   And I am anything but a "liberal".   I think it applies perfectly to some instances.   Especially ones where we've been in a foreign nation "training" for a decade.

Yeah I see that you...along with some others have adopted the Liberal language on a lot of things where the miltiary is concerned because it fits this short sighted isolationist mindset you've adopted irregardless of the fact that we can't do that in the 21st Century.  It's a early 20th century worldview that's as outdated as the Model T.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 03:41:37 PM
And what you know is all that you've been programmed to know ----  so take your stupid snark somewhere else.

What I know about this stuff is what I have learned studied and researched over a 21 year military career.

You call my comment "snark" because you know on a factual level you couldn't rise to challenge me on it on your best day.

You're just a blind follower who will regurgiatate anything Trump says and defend any action he does because being a sheep is easeir and less risky for you than thinking on your own.

If Trump came out tomorrow and declared he was dismantling the active duty military forces and leaving in place only the state controlled national guard units and the Coast Guard...you'd applaud like a clapping seal because Trump said it.  IF anyone around here is "programmed"...well...lets just say you better take a look in the mirror if you want to see what "programmed" really looks like.
Title: Re: Syrian American group says Trump deserves Nobel Peace Prize, US troops should come home
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 03:57:59 PM
Well what a surprise.  Syria was on the travel ban.  And most Syrian refugee's were Muslims:

Less than 3 percent of the Syrian refugees admitted to the United States so far are Christian and 96 percent are Muslim, the result of a referral system that Republican Sen. Tom Cotton says “unintentionally discriminates” against Christians.
State Department figures released Monday showed that the current system overwhelmingly favors Muslim refugees. Of the 2,184 Syrian refugees admitted to the United States so far, only 53 are Christians while 2,098 are Muslim, the Christian News Service reported.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/17/us-unintentionally-discriminates-against-christian/ (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/17/us-unintentionally-discriminates-against-christian/)

State Dept: Trump travel ban denied more than 31K people entry to US
By Rachel Frazin - 09/24/19 05:23 PM EDT

More than 31,000 people were denied entry to the U.S. under President Trump's travel ban, a State Department official said Tuesday while testifying before the House Judiciary Committee.

“There’s approximately 31,334 refusals up to Sept. 14, 2019,” said Edward Ramotowski, the deputy assistant secretary for visa services in the Bureau of Consular Affairs.

Ramotowski, in response to questions by Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), also said that “more than 7,600 waivers have been granted.”

Tuesday's hearing was called "Oversight of the Trump Administration’s Muslim Ban." Trump and his allies have said the travel ban is not a Muslim ban despite his calls during the 2016 election for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States."

The ban restricts travel to the U.S. to people from Iran, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Yemen, Venezuela and North Korea. Chad was previously included in the ban.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/462878-state-dept-travel-ban-denied-more-than-31000-people-entry-to-the-us (https://thehill.com/homenews/house/462878-state-dept-travel-ban-denied-more-than-31000-people-entry-to-the-us)

Most likely that group of Syrian refugee's were admitted to the U.S. during the Obama Administration.  Its glaring that all of a sudden Syrian Muslims think Trump deserves Nobel Peace Prize.  Peace?  Is it really?
Title: Re: Turkey violates agreement: attacks in Serêkaniyê, wall removed, enter mercenaries east the city
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
As Trump is prancing around like a prized stallion declaring in his "unmatched wisdom" how great this is for civilization.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 18, 2019, 04:03:30 PM
What I know about this stuff is what I have learned studied and researched over a 21 year military career. 

And 21 years in the military, while honorable and deserving of gratitude, teaches you from one school of thought.  There is a natural investment in standing up for what you've been taught is the best and right way.  But it allows precious little room for thinking outside the box of military orthodoxy. 

I mean no disrespect @txradioguy  Your service was noble and honorable and I have great respect for you.  But it is this LONG service that forces your resistance to actions that were not part of your military training and education.  While I personally find this to be disappointing, I also find it understandable.

I can't help but wish you wouldn't take the next step and spew such disrespect at the CIC because he is able to think outside the box all your valuable training and service has put you in.  This is an observation and an appeal; not a judgment.



Title: Re: Syria Kurds accuse Turkey of violating cease-fire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 04:10:16 PM
News from over a year ago about the plan that is being played out right now in Syria from Gatestone Institute International Policy Council:

Turkey in Syria: Ruling Kurdish Afrin by Sharia Law, Ethnic Cleansing
by Sirwan Kajjo
May 13, 2018 at 4:00 am

At the onset of the Turkish offensive, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his government declared it a "jihad" against Syrian Kurds. Turkish preachers gave sermons justifying the assault as a "holy war."

Turkey and jihadist groups are now forcing non-Muslim minorities in Afrin to convert to Islam. Yazidi temples, for example, have been destroyed by militants. Yazidi residents have been forcibly taken to mosques to convert to Islam.

Kurdish groups have accused the government of Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of carrying out a campaign to create a demographic change aiming at dislodging native Kurdish civilians from their lands and replacing them with Sunni Arabs from Turkish-based refugees camps.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12269/turkey-syria-afrin-sharia (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/12269/turkey-syria-afrin-sharia)

Who would have known that Trump would give the go ahead to Sharia Law in Syria?  To proudly proclaim friendship with the Extremist Muslim Erdogan?
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 18, 2019, 04:14:28 PM
And 21 years in the military, while honorable and deserving of gratitude, teaches you from one school of thought.  There is a natural investment in standing up for what you've been taught is the best and right way.  But it allows precious little room for thinking outside the box of military orthodoxy. 

I mean no disrespect @txradioguy  Your service was noble and honorable and I have great respect for you.  But it is this LONG service that forces your resistance to actions that were not part of your military training and education.  While I personally find this to be disappointing, I also find it understandable.

I can't help but wish you wouldn't take the next step and spew such disrespect at the CIC because he is able to think outside the box all your valuable training and service has put you in.  This is an observation and an appeal; not a judgment.

Wow.  Outside the box huh?  I am thinking about Trumps new direction coming from his outside the box.  Disaster.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 04:27:10 PM
Unfortunately, I think some people are defensive because we have a real "existential" threat now, to his presidency, you look at Ukraine, Russia and so on, I think these have mainly been big jokes but there does seem to be a problem here. I'm sorry, just saying how it appears and I'd say they are a bit into "damage control", I'm not wanting to upset anyone. Someone really should have known better than to make this decision unless, it can be fully justified, hearings next I hope. You know, sorry.  As I've said and I'm repeating myself, we had the red line, we've had the JV team, we have had the bay of pigs some 55 years ago or so. These things happen.

Quote
Rep. Dan Crenshaw on Syria cease-fire: Trump's rapid pullout decision created 'chaos'
By Julia Musto | Fox News

The Trump administration should have handled the conflict between Turkey and Syria with more careful consideration, Rep. Dan Crenshaw, R-Texas, said Friday.

Appearing on "America's Newsroom" with host Sandra Smith, the former Navy SEAL said, "When America leaves, we create a vacuum. And, when we create a vacuum, we create chaos. And, that's what we're seeing right now."

While Crenshaw applauded the president's efforts to create a cease-fire, he argued that the U.S. "shouldn't have had to do it in the first place."

Read more at: https://www.foxnews.com/world/dan-crenshaw-turkey-syria-ceasefire (https://www.foxnews.com/world/dan-crenshaw-turkey-syria-ceasefire)

If someone is so stubborn, that having said the same last December and it was shown wrong, to then try it again, hey, maybe they shouldn't be making these decisions. Existential threat.

To me, it's such a foul up, often when one messes up, it's best to say so as soon as possible but I see how difficult this situation is and some Dems, yes, are probably using it for political hay,  tasteless.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 04:42:28 PM
Ragip is a good man, journo, Turkey, now, works for Middle East Eye, prior with a Turk newspaper....
Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
2h
Pentagon is now constantly leaking disinformation to avenge Turkish incursion in Syria. They aren’t happy about the deal either

 Today they claimed Turkey “advanced on Ras al-ayn” despite a ceasefire.

The fact is Turkey had been in Ras al-ayn since beginning of the incursion

Quote
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
2h
Will take some time to end clashes. However, Pentagon officials are very disingenuous with comments like that:

• “They are deceptive and only in it for their interest. Not a partner or ally,” the US senior official said.

We are talking about Turkey, a NATO ally for 70 years

https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu (https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu)

It must be tough, you can almost see how he's being defensive.... what a great tragedy and we've watched the Syrian tragedy really since, oh, I'd say 2012, 2013 or so. The first protests were in 2011, if I have it correctly.
.
Even now, I was reading in the news, some people are very, very  unhappy Assad's troops are coming in, I think that was for the city of Raqqa, which was the ISIS capital and which our guys mainly won.

No endorsements, maybe Brookings saying you did bad means you did good... but anyway:

Order from Chaos
Quote
The US no longer matters in Syria
Ranj Alaaldin
Friday, October 18, 2019

Ranj Alaaldin
8-9 minutes

Turkey’s military incursion into northeast Syria last week set into motion a humanitarian crisis that was effectively enabled by the United States, after President Trump green-lit the Turkish operation and then withdrew 1,000 U.S. troops from the area. It constituted a betrayal of Syria’s Kurds, who have been critical to the war against jihadi groups like the Islamic State and have lost 11,000 fighters in the war effort against the jihadis.

Yesterday, Washington purportedly signed a ceasefire agreement with Ankara that requires the Kurdish fighters of the People’s Protection Units (YPG) to pull back from Turkey’s proposed 20-mile deep “safe zone” on its border. But it is an agreement that is underpinned by an extremely fragile foundation and premised on deeply flawed assumptions. Fundamentally, it assumes the U.S. still matters in Syria. It does not.

    Fundamentally, [the ceasefire] assumes the U.S. still matters in Syria. It does not.

More: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/10/18/the-us-no-longer-matters-in-syria/ (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/10/18/the-us-no-longer-matters-in-syria/)

Brookings are hawks, I can that we don't always need to get involved but we probably should take care of conflicts we are involved in and not just throw away 5 years of fixing things up.

Quote
Charles Lister
@Charles_Lister
·
Oct 7
#Trump's withdrawal from the #Syria-#Turkey border is a catastrophe & a betrayal of 5yrs of hard work by @CJTFOIR
 & the #SDF.

All the wrong actors win from this & #America loses -- my new post on @MiddleEastInst
:
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister (https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
Lindsey Graham:

Quote
I just spoke with General Mazloum Abdi, the commander of the Syrian Democratic Forces in Syria.  He appreciates the efforts of the Trump Administration to stop the violence. (1/4)

General Mazloum is concerned about the cease-fire holding and was emphatic that he will never agree to the ethnic cleansing of Kurds that is being proposed in Ankara. (2/4)

A buffer zone is acceptable to the Kurds but a military occupation that displaces hundreds of thousands is not a safe zone.  It is ethnic cleansing. (3/4)

I hope we can find a win-win situation, but I share General Mazloum’s concerns.  I also told him that Congress will stay very involved and is extremely sympathetic to the plight of the Kurds. (4/4)

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC (https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC)

Someone said it first, we could potentially lose some intelligence the way this has unfolded, I mean, these are losses already to be charted up, not some abstract notion.

Quote
The Intelligence Fallout From Trump’s Withdrawal in Syria
Mike Giglio

The chaotic withdrawal from Syria will severely weaken U.S. efforts in the country—and could also be a boost for Russia and Iran.

This version of the forever war in Iraq and Syria was built around the work done by local U.S. allies. The fight against ISIS was America’s, but it was also being fought by Syrians, Kurds, and Iraqis—a U.S. strategy known as “by, with, and through.” It meant that local troops carried out ground fighting in battles drawn up by American war planners. It meant that they received arms, training, and logistical support from the U.S. military and were backed by U.S. air strikes. Crucially, it also meant that they were getting help from Special Operations forces, the U.S. military’s most elite units, who work in the shadows around the world to carry out difficult and sensitive missions.

Perhaps the best-known unit is SEAL Team Six, which carried out the Osama bin Laden raid in 2011. But task forces made up of SEALs and other officially classified units such as the Delta Force have carried out the dangerous work of hunting terrorists and breaking up insurgent networks since America’s forever wars began. Often, they work on their own; but sometimes, as in the war against ISIS, they work with local counterterrorism units specially trained for the task. In the “by, with, and through” strategy, these Special Operations forces, along with the better-known U.S. Army Special Forces, or Green Berets, served as a force multiplier—a relatively small number of American troops who made the war effort by local forces far more deadly.

Read more at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/us-intelligence-disaster-looming-syria/600226/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/us-intelligence-disaster-looming-syria/600226/)

Now, Mitch McConnell said this was a 'grave mistake' or something like that, I can't document everything and these are Republicans talking.



Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 05:02:05 PM
You want to talk about Nato Charter Article 5??

Quote
Marco Rubio
@marcorubio
And now that the administration has agreed to a Turkish controlled “security zone” in NE #Syria, what happens when Turkish troops come under attack from Iranian aligned militias,Assad regime or even #Russia & invoke
@NATO
 collective defense under Article 5?

https://mobile.twitter.com/marcorubio


Unlikely but possible. Sharp observation, I had not thought of this.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 18, 2019, 06:33:39 PM
What I know about this stuff is what I have learned studied and researched over a 21 year military career.

You call my comment "snark" because you know on a factual level you couldn't rise to challenge me on it on your best day.

You're just a blind follower who will regurgiatate anything Trump says and defend any action he does because being a sheep is easeir and less risky for you than thinking on your own.

If Trump came out tomorrow and declared he was dismantling the active duty military forces and leaving in place only the state controlled national guard units and the Coast Guard...you'd applaud like a clapping seal because Trump said it.  IF anyone around here is "programmed"...well...lets just say you better take a look in the mirror if you want to see what "programmed" really looks like.

Hey... you know my stance on this.   And I know yours.   I'm not going to waste my time arguing about this..... especially with weather like we're (finally) having.   Screw that.  I'd rather be outside enjoying spring like weather.   Just know.... I am about as pro-military as you can get.... being a military brat (naval air) with every male in my family having served in one branch or another.   

When the radical leftists are in the WH, they couldn't care LESS about military lives lost... and they have shown and proven that ten times over.   I approve of what Trump did in this one instance re: Syria.   Effing sue me.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Fishrrman on October 18, 2019, 06:52:36 PM
I'm on record here as saying we should GET OUT of [most of] the mideast and let those muslims have-at each other.

If they want to kill each other, that's fine with me -- indeed, the higher the body count, the better.

So... in view of that... Mr. Trump did the right thing.

We've wasted enough blood and treasure there.
Let the muzzies go ahead and "waste" each other.

Time to send our troops to the southern border and do something that actually PROTECTS America.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 09:03:11 PM
You want to talk about Nato Charter Article 5??

Unlikely but possible. Sharp observation, I had not thought of this.

I only brought this up on at least three different occasions in this thread and one of the other Turkey/Kurd threads over the last three days. 
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 09:06:20 PM
I'm on record here as saying we should GET OUT of [most of] the mideast and let those muslims have-at each other.

If they want to kill each other, that's fine with me -- indeed, the higher the body count, the better.

So... in view of that... Mr. Trump did the right thing.

We've wasted enough blood and treasure there.
Let the muzzies go ahead and "waste" each other.

Time to send our troops to the southern border and do something that actually PROTECTS America.

Fine. We’ll put you down for rather fighting ISIS on our own city streets rather that far far away.

Those same troops that prevented what Turkey is doing now...couldn’t be deployed to the border no matter how much you wish it to be so.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 09:08:00 PM
Again, conflating Obama's actions back then, which was fulfilling every leftists wet dream of destroying all progress made in Iraq by a complete pullout... resulting in the rise of ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood.... with Trump pulling 50 guys out of Syria AFTER ISIS has been contained is not even close to being comparable, no matter how the idiot rabid left spins it.   We were never supposed to stay there, it was only supposed to be 30 days, the job was done, fricking END the mission FFS.  And again... the problem isn't Trump pulling 50 guys out of Syria.....the problem was Turkey ... a "NATO ally" deciding to take advantage and invade.  Put the blame where it belongs.

Sheesh.
Quote
Opinion | Mitch McConnell: Withdrawing from Syria is a grave mistake
By Mitch McConnell

 .... Sadly, the recently announced pullout risks repeating the Obama administration’s reckless withdrawal from Iraq, which facilitated the rise of the Islamic State in the first place.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mitch-mcconnell-withdrawing-from-syria-is-a-grave-mistake/2019/10/18/c0a811a8-f1cd-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mitch-mcconnell-withdrawing-from-syria-is-a-grave-mistake/2019/10/18/c0a811a8-f1cd-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html)

There we go again, we are talking about what people do, can I say maybe person A smokes and person B smokes, they both do it. It does not mean there are similarities beyond that.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 09:13:17 PM
Fine. We’ll put you down for rather fighting ISIS on our own city streets rather that far far away.

Those same troops that prevented what Turkey is doing now...couldn’t be deployed to the border no matter how much you wish it to be so.

goopo

Good posting, and folks, some might need to consider, that though,  one thinks that they are being against radical fundamentalism, well, sheesh, one might be actually helping it grow.

Maybe a whole lot of hard work was destroyed.  That's the pity.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 18, 2019, 09:25:08 PM
Many analysts say this move helps Iran, a country with definite nuclear aspirations.  In fact, I think clearly it does and one can go on from there.

Plus, yanking them out, apparently helps Christians who in 1999, they may have suffered still some persecution, discrimination over there but their numbers were over a million, now?

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmms-ZNkgIM#)
(disclaimer, Ruptly is a Russian news agency but nothing is altered in this speech and it is short)

It was a stupid idea in December, 2018 and it's a proven stupid idea in October, 2019. I'd almost think one should step down, it is so asinine. How can one make competent decisions. "Oh, I don't trust my intelligence".

Rubio: Trump 'about to make a major blunder' on Syria
•Dec 21, 2018
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAwWhTQimuA#)
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 18, 2019, 09:41:53 PM
Fine. We’ll put you down for rather fighting ISIS on our own city streets rather that far far away.

Those same troops that prevented what Turkey is doing now...couldn’t be deployed to the border no matter how much you wish it to be so.

Could they be used to invade Mexico and create a buffer zone?  Seems to me we deserve one too, if Turkey can have one.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 18, 2019, 10:21:42 PM
Could they be used to invade Mexico and create a buffer zone?  Seems to me we deserve one too, if Turkey can have one.

That’s actually not a bad idea.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 18, 2019, 10:26:00 PM
That’s actually not a bad idea.

Seems like a good use of their skill sets, and we would not have to worry about training and entrusting locals for security.   :pondering:
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on October 18, 2019, 10:27:50 PM
Could they be used to invade Mexico and create a buffer zone?  Seems to me we deserve one too, if Turkey can have one.

I was thinking about that awhile back.  We help them set up a safe zone in the north where they can move their military/LEO/govt families, and then with us at their backs (aka on our border) THEY could start pushing south.  Meanwhile, their violence stops spilling over our border.

I'd rather see them fix their own mess, but they're not getting it done and it directly affects us.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 18, 2019, 10:39:16 PM
Did I not hit post?

Or did you censor it?

@mystery-ak
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 18, 2019, 10:47:04 PM
Did I not hit post?

Or did you censor it?

@mystery-ak

@bigheadfred PM.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: montanajoe on October 19, 2019, 02:14:45 AM
This is a total disaster.

Exceeding Obama's incompetence..   :whistle:

...... :shrug:


Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 19, 2019, 02:53:43 AM
@bigheadfred PM.
Don't,

I asked and you forbid.

IF you had the balls at least post the link.

I will NOT STOP.

@Quix. Who do you PRETEND?

I don't pretend.




Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: bigheadfred on October 19, 2019, 03:21:19 AM
BTW,

(please stay on topic) - Mod
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 19, 2019, 06:45:58 AM
This is a total disaster.

Exceeding Obama's incompetence..   :whistle:

...... :shrug:

@montanajoe

Never fear. ... RINO's will have soft landings with Beltway Bandit companies wanting to buy influence and access.

Unfortunately. I would prefer to see them begging in the streets.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: roamer_1 on October 19, 2019, 08:36:13 AM
This is a total disaster.

Exceeding Obama's incompetence..   :whistle:

.....

That's right.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 19, 2019, 08:48:08 AM
This is a total disaster.

Exceeding Obama's incompetence..   :whistle:
....... :shrug:

 888mouth
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Axeslinger on October 19, 2019, 09:04:10 AM
@montanajoe

Congratulations!   .....
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 19, 2019, 10:11:18 AM
@montanajoe



I already answered MJ on TOS.

Now play nice @Axeslinger   Don't force me to ruin your Saturday.     :nono:






Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: TomSea on October 19, 2019, 11:00:38 AM
The ceasefire was weak to begin with, Turk proxies never obeyed it reports say.

Quote
Mutlu Civiroglu
@mutludc
Opinion | I Joined the Army to Prevent Genocide, Not to Pave the Way for It

https://twitter.com/mutludc/status/1185527539185475584 (https://twitter.com/mutludc/status/1185527539185475584)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/opinion/trump-turkey-kurds-syria.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/opinion/trump-turkey-kurds-syria.html)





Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 19, 2019, 12:46:19 PM
Here is an informative discussion, at around 22:30 seconds,  the panelist says what I believe I heard on the news today, the Syrian Defense Forces, SDF, currently is Arab majority, not Kurd majority. So one can hear what she has to say for themselves.

Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t_9m7UAmlI&feature=youtu.be&t=1112#)

 Senator Ted Cruz spoke at the Hudson institute about a month ago. That article was posted in TBR TV section.   (http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,374648.0.html)

Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: montanajoe on October 19, 2019, 12:46:41 PM
@montanajoe

Congratulations!   Looking at the post above mine, Youve succeeded in doing what so many of us have been unable to do! Getting RiV to just hush and not regurgitate some nonsensical defense.

Glad RIV answered at TOS then I would not have seen it for months. I  post  once in a blue moon over there to make sure my ID has not been appropriated by some Russian... :whistle:

...and to stir up the loons, I find this site to be much more sane with a couple of notable exceptions... :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: catfish1957 on October 19, 2019, 01:07:11 PM
Glad RIV answered at TOS then I would not have seen it for months. I  post  once in a blue moon over there to make sure my ID has not been appropriated by some Russian... :whistle:

...and to stir up the loons, I find this site to be much more sane with a couple of notable exceptions... :shrug:

Wonder if RIV has worked up his Trump defense speech after this Orangeness hands over Taiwan to the Chicoms on a silver platter.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 19, 2019, 01:09:59 PM
Wonder if RIV has worked up his Trump defense speech after this Orangeness hands over Taiwan to the Chicoms on a silver platter.

@catfish1957

And here I was thinking Taiwan wasn't ours to hand over!

Amazing what you can learn from listening to Party Pod People.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: catfish1957 on October 19, 2019, 01:23:06 PM
@catfish1957

And here I was thinking Taiwan wasn't ours to hand over!

Amazing what you can learn from listening to Party Pod People.

Just because you failed your geo-political basic classes, doesn't mean us grownups haven't.

Move along sonny.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 19, 2019, 01:48:02 PM
Just because you failed your geo-political basic classes, doesn't mean us grownups haven't.

Move along sonny.

@catfish1957

Un,huh. I lived in Asia for almost 5 years.

You?
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 19, 2019, 01:55:03 PM
@catfish1957

Un,huh. I lived in Asia for almost 5 years.

You?

I detected a little sarcasm in @catfish1957's post.... :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 19, 2019, 01:56:11 PM
And that makes you an expert on Taiwan-Red China in uhhh what way?

Let me help you with your education sonny.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-American_Mutual_Defense_Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-American_Mutual_Defense_Treaty)

I'll admit I could be wrong.   :shrug: :shrug:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 19, 2019, 01:57:24 PM
....
:raise hand:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: catfish1957 on October 19, 2019, 01:58:47 PM
I'll admit I could be wrong.   :shrug: :shrug:

Removed the post in case he is a Nam Vet.  Can honor his service, no matter how misguided he is
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Once-Ler on October 19, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
I already answered MJ on TOS.

Now play nice @Axeslinger   Don't force me to ruin your Saturday.     :nono:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHFHVQvWoAUmfVp.jpg)
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: aligncare on October 19, 2019, 02:02:36 PM
@catfish1957

Un,huh. I lived in Asia for almost 5 years.

You?


Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn....for a state department Sino-American foreign policy conference....in Washington DC....with my ASIAN PARENTS.

Now that would be a comeback.  :silly:
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 19, 2019, 02:04:42 PM
Removed the post in case he is a Nam Vet.  Can honor his service, no matter how misguided he is

Several tours, IIRC.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: sneakypete on October 19, 2019, 02:07:21 PM

Well, I did stay at a Holiday Inn....for a state department Sino-American foreign policy conference....in Washington DC....with my ASIAN PARENTS.

Now that would be a comeback.  :silly:

@aligncare

Yeah,but not much of one. Unlike most immigrants today,Asians seem to assimilate and become Americans within 1 generation.
Title: Re: Turkish Invasion of Northern Syria
Post by: TomSea on October 19, 2019, 02:12:22 PM
Thread is closed.

There may be another one coming or people can just post separate articles.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 19, 2019, 03:57:22 PM
The ceasefire was weak to begin with, Turk proxies never obeyed it reports say. 

Where are those reports, Tom?
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: txradioguy on October 19, 2019, 04:39:27 PM
Wow.  Outside the box huh?  I am thinking about Trumps new direction coming from his outside the box.  Disaster.

She doesn’t realize either that “thinking outside the box” includes not following like a sheep everything the current POTUS says and does.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 19, 2019, 05:35:17 PM
She doesn’t realize either that “thinking outside the box” includes not following like a sheep everything the current POTUS says and does.

One of the reasons she voted for candidate Trump was his promise to bring an end to "stupid, endless wars".  She agrees with the President's statement:
Quote
"American servicemen and women should not be at the center of ancient sectarian conflicts all over the world." -- DJT Oct 17, 2019

I have tried to be respectful of your dated worldview @txradioguy   I've not referred to you as a sheep blindly following the dictates of warriors who like war.  I could have, but I chose not to.

So if you're going to talk about me, man-up and at least ping me. 
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: corbe on October 19, 2019, 06:17:01 PM
One of the reasons she voted for candidate Trump was his promise to bring an end to "stupid, endless wars".  She agrees with the President's statement:
I have tried to be respectful of your dated worldview @txradioguy   I've not referred to you as a sheep blindly following the dictates of warriors who like war.  I could have, but I chose not to.

So if you're going to talk about me, man-up and at least ping me. 

   You tell me that too, @Right_in_Virginia and when I ping you, calling out some of your most absurd BS, you admonish me and ping the owner, bringing fire and brimstone upon my proud, raised head.
   Damned if I do, Damned if I don't kinda thing. 
   Why don't you ovary up and start thinking with your mind instead of your heart?   :shrug:


   @txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Once-Ler on October 19, 2019, 11:47:37 PM
   @txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.
Agreed.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 20, 2019, 04:09:47 AM
She doesn’t realize either that “thinking outside the box” includes not following like a sheep everything the current POTUS says and does.

I know many people like her. 
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Chosen Daughter on October 20, 2019, 04:11:53 AM


   @txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.

Yes he has.   
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 20, 2019, 05:00:36 AM
      @txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.

@corbe @Chosen Daughter @Once-Ler   I really do wish one of you would read a thread... you'd be surprised what you miss.

And 21 years in the military, while honorable and deserving of gratitude, teaches you from one school of thought.  There is a natural investment in standing up for what you've been taught is the best and right way.  But it allows precious little room for thinking outside the box of military orthodoxy. 

I mean no disrespect @txradioguy  Your service was noble and honorable and I have great respect for you. But it is this LONG service that forces your resistance to actions that were not part of your military training and education.  While I personally find this to be disappointing, I also find it understandable.

I can't help but wish you wouldn't take the next step and spew such disrespect at the CIC because he is able to think outside the box all your valuable training and service has put you in.  This is an observation and an appeal; not a judgment.


Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 20, 2019, 05:02:03 AM
I know many people like her.

I doubt that.  Folks like her have discriminating tastes in friends and acquaintances  @Chosen Daughter
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: roamer_1 on October 20, 2019, 05:12:15 AM
@txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.

That's right.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: XenaLee on October 20, 2019, 05:29:11 AM
   You tell me that too, @Right_in_Virginia and when I ping you, calling out some of your most absurd BS, you admonish me and ping the owner, bringing fire and brimstone upon my proud, raised head.
   Damned if I do, Damned if I don't kinda thing. 
   Why don't you ovary up and start thinking with your mind instead of your heart?   :shrug:


   @txradioguy has earned his respect here, the hard way.

What, exactly, is "the hard way"?   Please explain.

I think that earning respect on a forum comes from self-restraint.   The ability to take being criticized and even insulted without resorting to vulgarities, for instance.   Handling disagreements with aplomb.  Being able to debate without making wild and outlandish accusations.  Many members here have earned such respect, therefore.   So please elaborate on what this "hard way" encompasses.
Title: Re: BREAKING>> US and Turkey agree to a ceasefire
Post by: Once-Ler on October 20, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
@corbe @Chosen Daughter @Once-Ler   I really do wish one of you would read a thread... you'd be surprised what you miss.
@Right_in_Virginia
It's difficult to read all the thread when I only see