The Briefing Room

General Category => Politics => Loony Left => Topic started by: mystery-ak on November 18, 2018, 01:25:56 PM

Title: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mystery-ak on November 18, 2018, 01:25:56 PM
Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party

Jazz ShawPosted at 9:31 am on November 18, 2018

She hasn’t even drawn her first paycheck as a member of Congress yet and won’t be casting any votes for a couple of months, but the political media is already flitting around Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez like moths surrounding a streetlight. And she’s responding to all the attention by setting a big agenda for herself. Rather than worrying about expanding the Democratic majority in the House two years from now or taking back the Senate, however, the newly elected socialist from New York has a different target in mind. She’s heading up a new coalition aimed at removing more Democrats in the next round of primaries and replacing them with more “diverse” candidates. You won’t need three guesses to figure out what that means.



This article from Politico provides one example of the victory parade they are setting up for Ocasio-Cortez in Washington and frames her expectations of attracting more candidates like herself into the fray. She wants the new broom to sweep away the establishment Democrats and build a burgeoning force of young socialists ready to remake America.

more
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/11/18/ocasio-cortez-prepares-war-party/
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 18, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
Ocasio-Cortez v. Pelosi. Should be fun.

 :pop41:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 01:52:32 PM
There is a commonality between people like her and certain people on the conservative side. They may disagree on a great many things, but they're both aware of an evil within our political system. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: kevindavis on November 18, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
 :2popcorn: :2popcorn: :2popcorn: :2popcorn:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LottieDah on November 18, 2018, 03:41:06 PM
Ocasio-Cortez v. Pelosi. Should be fun.

 :pop41:


The battle between Tweedlie Dumb and Tweedlie Dumber!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 18, 2018, 03:59:12 PM
I can't decide who the stupid one is in this battle.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 04:04:58 PM
I can't decide who the stupid one is in this battle.

Ocasio may be starry eyed and ignorant about economics, but she's not a morally bankrupt sociopath like Hillary Clinton. Say what you want about people like Bernie and Ocasio, but they have good souls. People like Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Shultz have no soul at all.
Title: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 18, 2018, 05:59:19 PM
(https://www.teaparty.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ocasio-5-1024x696.jpg)

Rep.-elect Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), implored more than 700 attendees of a Justice Democrats strategy call to run for office against incumbent Democrats as well as Republicans in their home districts.

During the video call with supporters Saturday evening, Ocasio-Cortez remarked that her own journey to the House began on the other end of a Justice Democrats strategy call while calling on supporters to mount similar bids in their own districts around the country.

https://www.teaparty.org/ocasio-cortez-launches-far-left-justice-democrats-calls-overthrow-incumbent-democrats-333910/ (https://www.teaparty.org/ocasio-cortez-launches-far-left-justice-democrats-calls-overthrow-incumbent-democrats-333910/)
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 18, 2018, 06:01:39 PM
I hope this horse faced jackass will enjoy her new office assignment in the mens room of the Capitol basement. The urinal cake smell is delightful in the summer.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: kevindavis on November 18, 2018, 06:26:11 PM
The Dems are going to be very sorry they let people like her in their party.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: goodwithagun on November 18, 2018, 06:31:22 PM
Oh, this is just delicious! Any retaliation by San Fran Nan & Co. will clearly be racist, misogynistic, and ageist. Alexi Socialist-Democrat, keep flapping those prominent gums!
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: kevindavis on November 18, 2018, 06:32:51 PM
Oh, this is just delicious! Any retaliation by San Fran Nan & Co. will clearly be racist, misogynistic, and ageist. Alexi Socialist-Democrat, keep flapping those prominent gums!


I think this a perfect time to step aside and let the Dems fight each other.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: txradioguy on November 18, 2018, 06:35:55 PM
The Dems are going to be very sorry they let people like her in their party.

People like her after years of indoctrination foisted on us by the likes of Pelosi Schumer and their ilk are who are gonna push the old bull Progressives out of office.

Dr. Frankenstein's Monster is going to kill them all.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: goodwithagun on November 18, 2018, 06:38:07 PM

I think this a perfect time to step aside and let the Dems fight each other.

Yep. This is going to be so entertaining.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 18, 2018, 06:47:21 PM
Ocasio may be starry eyed and ignorant about economics, but she's not a morally bankrupt sociopath like Hillary Clinton. Say what you want about people like Bernie and Ocasio, but they have good souls. People like Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Shultz have no soul at all.

Occasio and Sanders are died in the wool hard core Socialists.  There is nothing good in their souls.  There is nothing good about the opiate they push on the masses.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 06:55:44 PM
Occasio and Sanders are died in the wool hard core Socialists.  There is nothing good in their souls.  There is nothing good about the opiate they push on the masses.

That kind of all or nothing polarized thinking is what's wrong with politics. Your opposition is not evil; they're not all completely devoid of goodness. They're just people that have vastly different opinions than you.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: berdie on November 18, 2018, 07:03:00 PM
Ocasio may be starry eyed and ignorant about economics, but she's not a morally bankrupt sociopath like Hillary Clinton. Say what you want about people like Bernie and Ocasio, but they have good souls. People like Hillary and Debbie Wasserman Shultz have no soul at all.



Ocasio and Bernie don't have "good souls". Wait a while, maybe a couple of months, until she learns the ropes and get a taste of power. She will be as bad or worse that Hillary or Debbie. If Ocasio and Bernie get a foothold this country is down the tubes. As foreign as it is to me to root for Pelosi that is what I am doing.  Talk about the lesser of two evils.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 18, 2018, 07:05:28 PM
Quote
Say what you want about people like Bernie and Ocasio, but they have good souls.
I don't make that kind of judgment about their individual souls. That's for God to deal with.
However, they stand for Marxism, which has nothing good about it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 18, 2018, 07:14:42 PM
That kind of all or nothing polarized thinking is what's wrong with politics. Your opposition is not evil; they're not all completely devoid of goodness. They're just people that have vastly different opinions than you.

Actually they are the worst kind. They think they're cause is just and righteous, and their opposition evil. They are capable of anything.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 07:29:03 PM
I don't make that kind of judgment about their individual souls.

Others do. But yes, ignorant ideology can lead to evil.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 07:29:28 PM
They think they're cause is just and righteous, and their opposition evil.

That sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 18, 2018, 07:30:31 PM
They're just people that have vastly different opinions than you.

Those "vastly different opinions" will ruin this country if fully implemented.

You are extremely naive if you think otherwise.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
Those "vastly different opinions" will ruin this country if fully implemented.

That may be true, but that doesn't make people like Bernie evil. I think it's very important to make that distinction. Not doing so is dangerous.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: berdie on November 18, 2018, 07:37:14 PM
Others do. But yes, ignorant ideology can lead to evil.



I assume you include Ocasio, Bernie. et al in that group?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 07:40:48 PM


I assume you include Ocasio, Bernie. et al in that group?

Ignorant people can and often do have goodhearted intentions. Somebody does not have a bad heart and a bad soul just because in their ignorance they support bad ideas. To me that distinction is important.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: berdie on November 18, 2018, 08:05:24 PM
Ignorant people can and often do have goodhearted intentions. Somebody does not have a bad heart and a bad soul just because in their ignorance they support bad ideas. To me that distinction is important.


Your quote.."Ignorant ideology can lead to evil".

But this most latest quote seems to go a different direction.  These people do not desire the best for their constinuency. They want to give stuff to people, funded by other people's money...that will ultimately give the givers  power. Their intentions are not pure.

Bad heart? Bad soul? Maybe not.  The desire to change this country into a hell hole (see Venezuela) for their own benefit? Most likely.

Read history, @Dexter , my friend. This isn't a new thing.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: sneakypete on November 18, 2018, 08:14:57 PM
LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 18, 2018, 08:20:28 PM

Your quote.."Ignorant ideology can lead to evil".

But this most latest quote seems to go a different direction.  These people do not desire the best for their constinuency. They want to give stuff to people, funded by other people's money...that will ultimately give the givers  power. Their intentions are not pure.

Bad heart? Bad soul? Maybe not.  The desire to change this country into a hell hole (see Venezuela) for their own benefit? Most likely.

Read history, @Dexter , my friend. This isn't a new thing.

I think Bernie actually believes his way is best and that it will lead to good for this country. If you listen to him he is clearly genuine in his beliefs, even if those beliefs are misguided/wrong. He's not trying to turn the United States into a hell hole. It would be an unintentional consequence of his ignorance.

Just for the record I regularly give liberals a hard time for this stuff too. They think all of you here are the absolute worst kind of filth imaginable. Deplorable and morally bankrupt monsters. They're wrong too of course. You're all fine people as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: Night Hides Not on November 18, 2018, 08:36:23 PM
Yep. This is going to be so entertaining.

Won’t be long before she’s deserving of her own sub board.  :rolling:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Elderberry on November 18, 2018, 08:41:32 PM
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib Aren’t Finished Challenging Incumbent Democrats Who Come Up Short
https://theintercept.com/2018/11/18/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-rashida-tlaib-justice-democrats/ (https://theintercept.com/2018/11/18/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-rashida-tlaib-justice-democrats/)

By winning a Detroit-area seat long held by former Rep. John Conyers, Tlaib fended off a divided local political establishment. She addressed protesters on Tuesday before they marched on Pelosi’s office, where Ocasio-Cortez later met them. Ocasio-Cortez upset Rep. Joe Crowley, the boss of the political machine in Queens, New York.

The pledge from Tlaib and Ocasio-Cortez to continue to primary incumbents injects a new element of politics into intra-caucus maneuvering. The pair are rallying support for a Green New Deal and are likely to find an increasing number of converts eager to sign aboard in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, only a handful of incumbents refuse to take corporate PAC money, a number that is also likely to rise given the pressure of a potential primary.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: berdie on November 18, 2018, 08:45:55 PM
I think Bernie actually believes his way is best and that it will lead to good for this country. If you listen to him he is clearly genuine in his beliefs, even if those beliefs are misguided/wrong. He's not trying to turn the United States into a hell hole. It would be an unintentional consequence of his ignorance.

Just for the record I regularly give liberals a hard time for this stuff too. They think all of you here are the absolute worst kind of filth imaginable. Deplorable and morally bankrupt monsters. They're wrong too of course. You're all fine people as far as I can tell.



I don't know if Bernie is genuine or not. Maybe you know him personally.  I don't believe any politician. 

I appreciate that you have even handedness with liberals and would enjoy seeing some of your arguments against them. You have some good arguments here. Personally...I couldn't care less what the liberals think of me.  I think that comes with age. wink777

Good evening. happy77
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 18, 2018, 10:09:42 PM
Won’t be long before she’s deserving of her own sub board.  :rolling:

That's a nice thought, but people will still post pictures of her on other threads too.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 18, 2018, 10:35:44 PM
I think Bernie actually believes his way is best and that it will lead to good for this country. If you listen to him he is clearly genuine in his beliefs, even if those beliefs are misguided/wrong. He's not trying to turn the United States into a hell hole. It would be an unintentional consequence of his ignorance.

Just for the record I regularly give liberals a hard time for this stuff too. They think all of you here are the absolute worst kind of filth imaginable. Deplorable and morally bankrupt monsters. They're wrong too of course. You're all fine people as far as I can tell.

Problem is Berine doesn't practice what he preaches. That makes his motives suspect.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: austingirl on November 18, 2018, 11:13:12 PM
Socialism is for the little people, not the ruling class socialists. Just ask Bernie who might be sitting on he deck at his lake house with his corrupt wife who drove Burlington College into the ground.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 19, 2018, 04:07:35 AM
That kind of all or nothing polarized thinking is what's wrong with politics. Your opposition is not evil; they're not all completely devoid of goodness. They're just people that have vastly different opinions than you.

No it isn't. @txradioguy hit it right on the head.

They're both hardcore totalitarian zealots.

You never invite people like these in to help you decide what to do with your money, property and lives over tea.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 08:01:51 AM
Problem is Berine doesn't practice what he preaches. That makes his motives suspect.

I'm pretty sure Bernie was one of the poorest politicians in politics before his run for president, and after his run I'm pretty sure he is the absolute poorest politician that has had a legitimate shot at the presidency in modern times. Everybody in the country knows his name and he's only worth a handful of millions. Who else in politics can you say that about? The idea that he's a hypocrite because after almost 80 years of life, many decades as a senator AND a presidential run he is worth a few million is the height of absurdity. Also he has given a lot to charity despite being one of the poorest politicians. Bernie doesn't need to give away all of his wealth to not be a hypocrite.

No disrespect. To me it's important to be able to tell the difference between good and bad in your opponents AND in your own ranks. Good and bad isn't just separated by left and right. Hillary is a lying, conniving and murdering sociopath. There isn't a genuine bone in her body. Anybody with even a little bit of emotional perception gets the creeps from her. Bernie might be wrong about politics but he is a good man. His history and the clear genuineness when he speaks makes that obviously apparent in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 08:18:53 AM
I'm pretty sure Bernie was one of the poorest politicians in politics before his run for president, and after his run I'm pretty sure he is the absolute poorest politician that has had a legitimate shot at the presidency in modern times. Everybody in the country knows his name and he's only worth a handful of millions. Who else in politics can you say that about? The idea that he's a hypocrite because after almost 80 years of life, many decades as a senator AND a presidential run he is worth a few million is the height of absurdity. Also he has given millions to charity despite being one of the poorest politicians. Bernie doesn't need to give away all of his wealth to not be a hypocrite.

No disrespect. To me it's important to be able to tell the difference between good and bad in your opponents AND in your own ranks. Good and bad isn't just separated by left and right. Hillary is a lying, conniving and murdering sociopath. There isn't a genuine bone in her body. Anybody with even a little bit of emotional perception gets the creeps from her. Bernie might be wrong about politics but he is a good man. His history and the clear genuineness when he speaks makes that obviously apparent in my opinion.

Sorry, but Bernie isn’t a good man.  A good man doesn’t adopt political viewpoints that have consistently led to the worst politically-motivated violence the human species has ever seen.  Not after the 20th Century.  He is, at the very best, a “useful idiot”.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 08:27:39 AM
He is, at the very best, a “useful idiot”.

Useful idiots aren't bad people. I think we should all take more care in who we label as good and evil.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Once-Ler on November 19, 2018, 09:14:34 AM
I'm pretty sure Bernie was one of the poorest politicians in politics before his run for president, and after his run I'm pretty sure he is the absolute poorest politician that has had a legitimate shot at the presidency in modern times. Everybody in the country knows his name and he's only worth a handful of millions. Who else in politics can you say that about? The idea that he's a hypocrite because after almost 80 years of life, many decades as a senator AND a presidential run he is worth a few million is the height of absurdity. Also he has given millions to charity despite being one of the poorest politicians. Bernie doesn't need to give away all of his wealth to not be a hypocrite.

No disrespect. To me it's important to be able to tell the difference between good and bad in your opponents AND in your own ranks. Good and bad isn't just separated by left and right. Hillary is a lying, conniving and murdering sociopath. There isn't a genuine bone in her body. Anybody with even a little bit of emotional perception gets the creeps from her. Bernie might be wrong about politics but he is a good man. His history and the clear genuineness when he speaks makes that obviously apparent in my opinion.

Really good posts through this thread @Dexter  :beer:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 19, 2018, 09:20:58 AM
I guess it depends on what your definition of "poor" is.

Bernie is a Mercedes Marxist with a net worth in the $2 million range.

https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/bernie-sanders-net-worth-14678955 (https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/bernie-sanders-net-worth-14678955)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Once-Ler on November 19, 2018, 09:25:13 AM
Sorry, but Bernie isn’t a good man.  A good man doesn’t adopt political viewpoints that have consistently led to the worst politically-motivated violence the human species has ever seen.  Not after the 20th Century.  He is, at the very best, a “useful idiot”.
I have a hard time telling the difference between the liberal who says the problem with socialism is it has never been tried, and the conservative who says the problem with capitalism is it has never been tried.  Any ideology taken to the extreme can be evil.  It's a matter of degrees.

We have had socialized medicine of some degree since 1812 for soldiers.  We have had "Social" Security for almost 100 years.  The socialism is already here and widely accepted.

An economist is someone who sees something that works in practice and wonders if it would work in theory.  - Ronald Reagan
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 19, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
@Dexter

You know where the road of good intentions leads, right?

While I will agree that they are humans, and will not demonize them to the point of being less, which is how you would get an otherwise moral person to be willing to kill the otherwise human enemy during a war, I will say their own policies show a lack of faith in their fellow man.

They believe they (The Federal Government) is the only moral arbiter worth ascribing to, and without them, the poor would starve, the sick would be, etc....
They do not believe that we the people have enough moral fiber to solve these problem on a local level, and that we also lack the intelligence to do so, Constitution and 10th amendment be damned.

Just ask 'em.
They haven't really kept this a secret.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:39:07 AM
a net worth in the $2 million range.

That's extremely poor as far as politicians go. It tells a story of a man who hasn't spent his career taking money from special interests. He's been a senator for decades, had a presidential run and wrote a book that sold a lot of copies. Is it really surprising or outrageous that he's at least that wealthy?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
While I will agree that they are humans, and will not demonize them to the point of being less, which is how you would get an otherwise moral person to be willing to kill the otherwise human enemy during a war

I don't take issue with your position. You get what I'm trying to say.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: verga on November 19, 2018, 09:56:35 AM
That kind of all or nothing polarized thinking is what's wrong with politics. Your opposition is not evil; they're not all completely devoid of goodness. They're just people that have vastly different opinions than you.
Let me run three names by you and see if you want to reassess your opinion. Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, HIllary Clinton.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
Let me run three names by you and see if you want to reassess your opinion. Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters, HIllary Clinton.

I already said that Hillary is a horrible person, and obviously there are others. That doesn't change the point I'm trying to make.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 10:46:04 AM
Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party

Jazz ShawPosted at 9:31 am on November 18, 2018

She hasn’t even drawn her first paycheck as a member of Congress yet and won’t be casting any votes for a couple of months, but the political media is already flitting around Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez like moths surrounding a streetlight. And she’s responding to all the attention by setting a big agenda for herself. Rather than worrying about expanding the Democratic majority in the House two years from now or taking back the Senate, however, the newly elected socialist from New York has a different target in mind. She’s heading up a new coalition aimed at removing more Democrats in the next round of primaries and replacing them with more “diverse” candidates. You won’t need three guesses to figure out what that means.



This article from Politico provides one example of the victory parade they are setting up for Ocasio-Cortez in Washington and frames her expectations of attracting more candidates like herself into the fray. She wants the new broom to sweep away the establishment Democrats and build a burgeoning force of young socialists ready to remake America.

more
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/11/18/ocasio-cortez-prepares-war-party/

Am I the only one temped to make a donation to her?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 10:47:25 AM
I can't decide who the stupid one is in this battle.

@Frank Cannon

The correct answer to that question is ALWAYS "Maxine Waters",although she does have some stiff competition.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 10:49:47 AM
That kind of all or nothing polarized thinking is what's wrong with politics. Your opposition is not evil;...


@Dexter

In this case,YES,they ARE evil. A socialist is nothing more than a Communist with training wheels.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 10:53:36 AM
I think Bernie actually believes his way is best and that it will lead to good for this country. If you listen to him he is clearly genuine in his beliefs, even if those beliefs are misguided/wrong. He's not trying to turn the United States into a hell hole. It would be an unintentional consequence of his ignorance.

 

@Dexter

Tell me,how many homes does Bernie own,how many sit vacant most of the year,and how many homeless people he allows to live in them when they are vacant.

IIRC,I believe the cheapest home he owns cost right at a half-million. Surely he could have bought a mobile home on a quarter acre and given the rest of the money to feed and house de po?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 19, 2018, 10:58:22 AM
That's extremely poor as far as politicians go. It tells a story of a man who hasn't spent his career taking money from special interests. He's been a senator for decades, had a presidential run and wrote a book that sold a lot of copies. Is it really surprising or outrageous that he's at least that wealthy?

For someone that rails against the "evil rich and the 1%" the way Sanders does it's the very definition of hypocrisy.

It's like Bill Clinton lecturing people on on being faithful in your marriage.


Bernie needs to practice what he preaches.  As it stands what he wants for the country...which is an America where everyone is equally miserable because it's "fair"...he'll never feel the effects of because he's rich and can insulate himself and his family from his own actions for everyone else.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 11:04:26 AM
I don't see him as a hypocrite for making a decent living as a senator. I don't think he needs to be living in a dilapidated trailer on some lot to not be a hypocrite. Obama says a lot of the same stuff and his home is worth 40 million dollars. Bernie is a different breed than people like Obama and Hillary. That's why he was cheated in the Democrat primaries.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: austingirl on November 19, 2018, 11:04:59 AM
@Frank Cannon

The correct answer to that question is ALWAYS "Maxine Waters",although she does have some stiff competition.

I'm not so sure. Alexandria Occasional Cortex just pulled into the lead in the stupid Olympics with her statement the if "we work our butts off we can take back all three chambers of the congress."
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 11:05:15 AM
For someone that rails against the "evil rich and the 1%" the way Sanders does it's the very definition of hypocrisy.

It's like Bill Clinton lecturing people on on being faithful in your marriage.


Bernie needs to practice what he preaches.  As it stands what he wants for the country...which is an America where everyone is equally miserable because it's "fair"...he'll never feel the effects of because he's rich and can insulate himself and his family from his own actions for everyone else.

Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: austingirl on November 19, 2018, 11:13:59 AM
She is the future of the democrat party, just ask Tom Perez.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: jmyrlefuller on November 19, 2018, 11:21:08 AM
She is the future of the democrat party, just ask Tom Perez.
It sounds like she might be a mole. It just seems like the stuff she says isn't just plain stupid, it's crafted stupid, the kind of fake stupid Trump uses, except geared to socialists. This ought to be interesting.  :2popcorn:
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 11:44:21 AM
It sounds like she might be a mole. It just seems like the stuff she says isn't just plain stupid, it's crafted stupid, the kind of fake stupid Trump uses, except geared to socialists. This ought to be interesting.  :2popcorn:

@jmyrlefuller

Nope,it's probably real stoopid. Ever heard Maxine Waters speak? That crazy black woman from Georgia who was a congresscritter from the Atlanta area speak? Pretty much any Dim from the left coast or the northeast speak?

I can't remember his name now,but there was one white Dim congresscritter from the NE that stood up in Congress after the Republicans finally won control for the first time in decades,and declared,"You can't do that to us!" When Newt told him "Why,you did it to us.",he responded in a whine,"But it's not FAIR!!!!!!"

You can't top that stuff no matter how hard you try.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 11:52:53 AM
I'm not so sure. Alexandria Occasional Cortex just pulled into the lead in the stupid Olympics with her statement the if "we work our butts off we can take back all three chambers of the congress."

@austingirl

Not so sure that is a result of stupidity. I suspect "bat shit crazy".  Take a look at her eyes.

Still,who know,maybe there ARE "three chambers of congress" in the world she lives in?

And who better to represent the people she represents than her? "Crazy" is a step up the Evolutionary Ladder for most of them.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 11:54:41 AM
Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.

@Dexter

Uh huh. Now,tell us who gets to define "rich people".

De Debbil bees in de details.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 19, 2018, 12:17:00 PM
I'm not so sure. Alexandria Occasional Cortex just pulled into the lead in the stupid Olympics with her statement the if "we work our butts off we can take back all three chambers of the congress."
She's named them Larry, Curly and Moe.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 12:32:55 PM
She's named them Larry, Curly and Moe.

@mountaineer

LOL!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 19, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
@Frank Cannon

The correct answer to that question is ALWAYS "Maxine Waters",although she does have some stiff competition.

Nice!  :rolling:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 19, 2018, 12:58:23 PM
Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.

Rich people can hide their money in various ways the gov't will never reach.  It will be the upper midle class and middle class who get screwed.

@Dexter
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 19, 2018, 01:17:58 PM
Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.

That's bullsh*t and you know it. 

Sure'y you aren't actually that naive.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 19, 2018, 01:39:45 PM
Rich people can hide their money in various ways the gov't will never reach.  It will be the upper midle class and middle class who get screwed.

@Dexter

And on top of it all...Socialism is about control...not jsut the part about taxing the hell out of the "1%".  Socialism seeks to control every single aspect of every single thing in your life...in the the life of everyone they can bring into their web.  I

It's the anthesis of freedom and what this country was founded on.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 19, 2018, 03:14:48 PM
And on top of it all...Socialism is about control...not jsut the part about taxing the hell out of the "1%".  Socialism seeks to control every single aspect of every single thing in your life...in the the life of everyone they can bring into their web.  I

It's the anthesis of freedom and what this country was founded on.

Yes!!  Never give the government control of anything; they will abuse it; tax it and ruin it.

And I don't want to hear any more about this wacky dame.  Can't we just ignore her?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 03:55:13 PM
Rich people can hide their money in various ways the gov't will never reach.  It will be the upper midle class and middle class who get screwed.

@Dexter

@mirraflake


As always. After all that is who gets the tax codes written. Warren Buffet has been known to whine in public about how his personal secretary pays more in taxes than he does. AFAIK,no one has ever gotten close enough to him yet to ask him why he doesn't pay her more so she can live tax-free,also.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: ConstitutionRose on November 19, 2018, 04:59:45 PM
I can't ever tell if she is smiling or baring her teeth.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on November 19, 2018, 05:14:24 PM
The Dems will likely call on Hillary's strongmen to get this nuisance new House member in line.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: austingirl on November 19, 2018, 05:26:30 PM
Forget the tax code if the socialists take over- they'll confiscate your salary, bank account and retirement accounts- then decide if you get an allowance.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 19, 2018, 06:01:41 PM
Government is hard - What do it do?

-Occasio-Cortez
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 19, 2018, 06:33:02 PM
Forget the tax code if the socialists take over- they'll confiscate your salary, bank account and retirement accounts- then decide if you get an allowance.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 07:00:04 PM
The Dems will likely call on Hillary's strongmen to get this nuisance new House member in line.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Yeah,that might not work out as well as they hope. They have created a monster that could turn on them and explode in the political sense if the His and Her Panics think "racism",and even with the airhead white women if they get a sniff of "Sexism".

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: Emjay on November 19, 2018, 07:26:10 PM
The Dems are going to be very sorry they let people like her in their party.

It's poetic justice.  They promoted this loon; now let them live with her.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 19, 2018, 08:06:17 PM
Forget the tax code if the socialists take over- they'll confiscate your salary, bank account and retirement accounts- then decide if you get an allowance.

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

P J O'Rourke
Title: Re: Ocasio Cortez Launches Far Left “Justice Democrats” – Calls For Overthrow Of Incumbent Democrats
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 19, 2018, 08:13:57 PM
It's poetic justice.  They promoted this loon; now let them live with her.

There is nothing more comic, and satisfying, than to be in a major battle and have the other side call for a time out so they can put down a mutiny.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.

So would those who are employed by rich people.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 08:24:13 PM
So would those who are employed by rich people.

I'm not trying to argue on behalf of Bernie's ideology, just his character.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 19, 2018, 08:29:07 PM
I'm not trying to argue on behalf of Bernie's ideology, just his character.


(https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bernie-guns-greed.jpg)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 19, 2018, 08:30:02 PM
I'm not trying to argue on behalf of Bernie's ideology, just his character.

(https://powerthroughdiscipline.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/yougotberned_house.jpg)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 08:30:34 PM
 *****rollingeyes*****

 :shrug:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 08:59:18 PM
I'm not trying to argue on behalf of Bernie's ideology, just his character.

His character is the worst imaginable.  His character leads to mass starvation, oppression, and death.  His character resulted in the deaths of over one hundred million people in the last 100 years.  The entire premise of man having a need to work, and that that work should go to the benefit of everyone else is the greatest destroyer the world has ever seen.

Do you see what is happening to Venezuela right now?  This is what Bernie proposes for the US.  And you actually think this is a reflection of good character?  Please.

There is nothing good about envy.  There is nothing good about stealing from those who produce and rewarding those who do not.  It is evil, pure and simple, no matter how 'good' you deem his intentions to be.  History is a great teacher.  Yet many choose to ignore it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 09:02:04 PM
Rich people would feel the impacts of Bernie's ideology in practice more than anybody else.

Nonsense.  Who felt the bite of communism more, the little guy who had to stand in line for hours to get a loaf of crappy bread, or the party functionary with his dacha on the Black Sea?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 19, 2018, 09:04:58 PM
Nonsense.  Who felt the bite of communism more, the little guy who had to stand in line for hours to get a loaf of crappy bread, or the party functionary with his dacha on the Black Sea?

And middle to lower income people would feel more the effects of the inflation that would result
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:09:02 PM
Nonsense.  Who felt the bite of communism more, the little guy who had to stand in line for hours to get a loaf of crappy bread, or the party functionary with his dacha on the Black Sea?

Bernie claims that he doesn't stand for communism, but instead for something similar to what they do in the Scandinavian countries. He's never spoken of removing the private sector, which is a mandatory part of achieving communism. He wants rich people to pay a lot more taxes to offset the cost of things like universal healthcare and government funded college. I know a lot of conservatives think that's communism/socialism but that's just factually incorrect. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
Bernie claims that he doesn't stand for communism, but instead for something similar to what they do in the Scandinavian countries. He's never spoken of removing the private sector, which is a mandatory part of achieving communism. He wants rich people to pay a lot more taxes to offset the cost of things like universal healthcare and government funded college. I know a lot of conservatives think that's communism/socialism but that's just factually incorrect. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist.

Yeah, communists like to claim lots of things that aren’t so.  Normal people call that lying.  The president calls it truthful hyperbole, at least when he does it. 

“The rich” don’t magically disappear, not even in the pseudo-socialist Scandinavian countries.  Those who wish to remain wish simply buy the appropriate number of senior level politicians, and the party goes on. 

If the Scandinavian countries appear more egalitarian, it’s because of the relative social and racial homogeneity of those countries, not because they’ve found the magic socialist elixir. 

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 09:16:11 PM
They believe they (The Federal Government) is the only moral arbiter worth ascribing to, and without them, the poor would starve, the sick would be, etc....
They do not believe that we the people have enough moral fiber to solve these problem on a local level, and that we also lack the intelligence to do so, Constitution and 10th amendment be damned.

And more than that - They take away the responsibility.
Liberty and Responsibility are synonymous.

In fact, they are taking away liberty.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:17:36 PM
Yeah, communists like to claim lots of things that aren’t so.  Normal people call that lying.  The president calls it truthful hyperbole, at least when he does it.

What makes you think that he's lying about his position? Maybe he actually wants to emulate Scandinavian capitalism. I don't think he has ever spoken of removing the private sector. I see no reason to believe he's not telling the truth about the things he wants to do.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 09:21:32 PM
He wants rich people to pay a lot more taxes to offset the cost of things like universal healthcare and government funded college.

So what happens when rich people decide to stop working because of high taxes?  What then?  Who's going to pay for universal health care and college then?

btw, the top 3% of wage earners already pay more taxes than the bottom 97%.  Yet you think they should be paying more?  My, aren't you greedy.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
What makes you think that he's lying about his position? Maybe he actually wants to emulate Scandinavian capitalism. I don't think he has ever spoken of removing the private sector.

He’s either lying, or an idiot of epic proportions.  How is he going to impose the social, cultural, and racial homogeneity that is the real source of the apparent egalitarianism of those countries?  Sweden is falling to pieces simply because it cannot deal with a tiny minority of Muslim immigrants who will not, and in terms of race, cannot, conform. 

There are also still plenty of wealthy Swedes.  Looks like they ain’t feeling the sting that much:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedes_by_net_worth
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 09:22:04 PM
What makes you think that he's lying about his position? Maybe he actually wants to emulate Scandinavian capitalism. I don't think he has ever spoken of removing the private sector.

Scandanavia does not pay for it's defense - WE DO. Without that generosity, their system crumbles to dust, even as Venezuela.

It will not work here.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:24:08 PM
“The rich” don’t magically disappear, not even in the pseudo-socialist Scandinavian countries.  Those who wish to remain wish simply buy the appropriate number of senior level politicians, and the party goes on. 

If the Scandinavian countries appear more egalitarian, it’s because of the relative social and racial homogeneity of those countries, not because they’ve found the magic socialist elixir.

I'm just trying to make his public positions clear and explain that what he wants is not literal socialism/communism. I guess he could be lying, but I see no reason to assume that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 09:26:21 PM
I'm just trying to make his public positions clear and explain that what he wants is not literal socialism/communism. I guess he could be lying, but I see no reason to assume that.

His positions are quite clear:  he thinks that money grows on trees, that those who have it don’t deserve it, and that he, crabbed little syphilitic white devil that he is, knows better than everyone else how that free money should be distributed.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:29:02 PM
He’s either lying, or an idiot of epic proportions.  How is he going to impose the social, cultural, and racial homogeneity that is the real source of the apparent egalitarianism of those countries?   

You'd have to ask him I guess.

Sweden is falling to pieces simply because it cannot deal with a tiny minority of Muslim immigrants who will not, and in terms of race, cannot, conform.

Sweden allowed a million impoverished Middle Easterners that don't speak the language into their country of only 9 million. That's like if we let 40 million people that don't speak English immigrate here over the span of a couple of years. Can you imagine the horrifying impact that would have on our economics and society in general? They screwed up and they know it. The main difference between the left and right in Sweden is immigration. The right has recently taken a lot of control because of the immigration screw ups.

There are also still plenty of wealthy Swedes.  Looks like they ain’t feeling the sting that much:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedes_by_net_worth

Agreed.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:29:47 PM
Scandanavia does not pay for it's defense - WE DO. Without that generosity, their system crumbles to dust, even as Venezuela.

It will not work here.

We should stop paying for their defense and see what happens.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 09:32:23 PM
You'd have to ask him I guess.

Sweden allowed a million impoverished Middle Easterners that don't speak the language into their country of only 9 million. That's like us letting in 40 million people that don't speak English. Can you imagine the horrifying impact that would have on our economics and society in general? They screwed up and they know it. The main difference between the left and right in Sweden is immigration. The right has recently taken a lot of control because of the immigration screw ups.

Agreed.



No, I’m asking you, because you’re here pitching him and his policies as a good thing.  How will you enforce the necessary conformity and homogeneity necessary for this stuff to work?  Camps?  Gas?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 09:32:32 PM
We should stop paying for their defense and see what happens.

We know what happens.
Germany or Russia.
You decide.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: endicom on November 19, 2018, 09:32:33 PM
Topics merged.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:34:08 PM
We know what happens.
Germany or Russia.
You decide.

You think Germany or Russia will invade Sweden without U.S forces present in Europe?

 :pondering:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:35:18 PM
No, I’m asking you, because you’re here pitching him and his policies as a good thing.  How will you enforce the necessary conformity and homogeneity necessary for this stuff to work?  Camps?  Gas?

My stance on immigration is likely far more conservative than yours is.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 09:46:39 PM
The High Price of a Free College Education in Sweden (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/)

Swedish colleges and universities are free. Yep. Totally free.

But students there still end up with a lot of debt. The average at the beginning of 2013 was roughly 124,000 Swedish krona ($19,000).  .  .

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/)


And even with 'free' education, almost every Swedish student takes federal aid money.

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/3rdparty/2013/5/screen-shot-2013-05-25-at.png)

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 09:46:56 PM
You think Germany or Russia will invade Sweden without U.S forces present in Europe?

 :pondering:

Sooner or later, yes I do. History says Germany, more than likely.

I am not *for* paying for European defense. But neither am I blind to what will happen when those socialist countries have to pick up their own defense... The entire system will predictably collapse.

They are taxed far harder than we are, and adding defense to their bill will make all their theories in social engineering, intentionally teetering under a muslim invasion, utterly collapse. They cannot do both. It simply isn't feasible economically.

Get us out of it, and Britain out of it, and they are in trouble.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 09:49:57 PM
@Dexter

Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:50:43 PM
Sooner or later, yes I do. History says Germany, more than likely.

I am not *for* paying for European defense. But neither am I blind to what will happen when those socialist countries have to pick up their own defense... The entire system will predictably collapse.

They are taxed far harder than we are, and adding defense to their bill will make all their theories in social engineering, intentionally teetering under a muslim invasion, utterly collapse. They cannot do both. It simply isn't feasible economically.

Get us out of it, and Britain out of it, and they are in trouble.

I really don't think Sweden will be invaded by Russia or Germany, but either way I think we shouldn't be spending billions on protecting Europe from possible invasions.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:54:59 PM
The High Price of a Free College Education in Sweden (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/)

Swedish colleges and universities are free. Yep. Totally free.

But students there still end up with a lot of debt. The average at the beginning of 2013 was roughly 124,000 Swedish krona ($19,000).  .  .

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/the-high-price-of-a-free-college-education-in-sweden/276428/)


And even with 'free' education, almost every Swedish student takes federal aid money.

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/3rdparty/2013/5/screen-shot-2013-05-25-at.png)

Quote
According to the story, it’s because young people are expected to pay for things themselves instead of relying on their parents to contribute or take out loans. Unlike in the U.S., parent income is not taken into account when applying for college or financial aid. Rather, it’s based on the individual student’s income.

But what’s really noteworthy is that even though Swedish students graduate with relatively high levels of debt, they only have to put about 3.8% of their average monthly income toward the loans, according to one study. To contrast, depending on a student’s level of debt and monthly income here in the U.S., most students end up putting at least 15% of their income toward their monthly payments on the standard repayment plan.

So why is debt easier for students in Sweden to manage? For one thing, the interest rates on student loans are much lower. They’re set by the government and maintained through subsidies. And the standard length of repayment is longer that in the U.S.: 25 years or until the student turns 60.

https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment/free-college-in-sweden-high-student-debt/ (https://www.collegefinancinggroup.com/student-loan-repayment/free-college-in-sweden-high-student-debt/)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 09:56:45 PM
@Dexter

Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?

As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries. I'm not really sure how Bernie reconciles the immigration thing though. Something tells me he didn't learn anything from the mistakes Sweden made.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 19, 2018, 09:58:56 PM
As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries. I'm not really sure how Bernie reconciles the immigration thing though. Something tells me he didn't learn anything from the mistakes Sweden made.

You still didn't answer the question.  Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:01:27 PM
You still didn't answer the question.  Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?

Driven people aren't going to give up because of higher taxes. It hasn't happened in the Scandinavian countries and it wouldn't happen here.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:02:58 PM
As Oceander pointed out there are lots of rich people in Sweden, and there's even more in other Scandinavian countries.

Rich people are not the point. There were always rich people in Russia too, and any other tyrannical country you might point to.

What is important is the middle class providing mobility between poverty and wealth.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:04:46 PM
Rich people are not the point. There were always rich people in Russia too, and any other tyrannical country you might point to.

What is important is the middle class providing mobility between poverty and wealth.

Hard work is rewarded in Sweden. They have no homeless people and their middle class is strong. I've been there and my fiance was born there and spent most of her life there. I happen to be quite familiar with how things are in Sweden.

Do you think Sweden is tyrannical?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:04:53 PM
I really don't think Sweden will be invaded by Russia or Germany

Them that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
You are suffering from the illusion that modernity changes things. It does not.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:07:00 PM
Them that don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
You are suffering from the illusion that modernity changes things. It does not.

Putin isn't an idiot. The EU has nukes and it will protect its Swedish ally. Also Germany is a much different place these days. They are very embarrassed and ashamed of their past.

Maybe the Russians wouldn't be so sore at us if we didn't think they're basically as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
Hard work is rewarded in Sweden. I've been there and my fiance was born there and spent most of her life there. I happen to be quite familiar with how things are in Sweden.

Do you think Sweden is tyrannical?

Not yet they aren't. But they will become so. 3rd-Way Socialism is a very young idea.
And by the numbers, it will fail, because it must. Over-taxation will lead to class-ism, and class will reduce to elite and peasant - Necessarily so, because the tax burden inevitably removes the middle.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:09:48 PM
Putin isn't an idiot. The EU has nukes and it will protect its Swedish ally. Also Germany is a much different place these days. They are very embarrassed and ashamed of their past.

Maybe the Russians wouldn't be so sore at us if we didn't think they're basically as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.

You are stone dead wrong.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:11:47 PM
Not yet they aren't. But they will become so. 3rd-Way Socialism is a very young idea.
And by the numbers, it will fail, because it must. Over-taxation will lead to class-ism, and class will reduce to elite and peasant - Necessarily so, because the tax burden inevitably removes the middle.

There are no signs of that happening so far. According to the World Health Organization the Scandinavian countries are the happiest and healthiest on Earth. They've been doing what they're doing for a number of decades now.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:13:19 PM
You are stone dead wrong.

Putin has nothing to gain by invading western Europe. The cost would be catastrophic for everybody.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:14:28 PM
There are no signs of that happening so far. According to the World Health Organization the Scandinavian countries are the happiest and healthiest on Earth. They've been doing what they're doing for a number of decades now.

So was Venezuela.

Socialism of any kind always looks great to start with.
But reality interferes.
And sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:16:38 PM
Putin has nothing to gain by invading western Europe. The cost would be catastrophic for everybody.

Like it wasn't a disaster the last time? Your thinking is very narrow - seeing only the here and now... and maybe a decade or two either way.

What happens when someone else ascends?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:19:33 PM
So was Venezuela.

Socialism of any kind always looks great to start with.
But reality interferes.
And sooner or later, you run out of other people's money.

They've been doing this stuff for like 40+ years.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:19:35 PM
Driven people aren't going to give up because of higher taxes. It hasn't happened in the Scandinavian countries and it wouldn't happen here.

Yes, it will.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:20:46 PM
What happens when someone else ascends?

He'd have to be an illogical lunatic to invade western Europe. If Russia puts somebody like that in power and gives them access to the nuclear arsenal we are in big trouble regardless of our presence in Europe.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 10:21:05 PM
My stance on immigration is likely far more conservative than yours is.

Don’t avoid the question.  The US is already too heterogeneous for Scandinavian style socialism.  How are you going to rectify that?  Camps?  Gas?  Firing squads?  Or maybe just Stalinesque famine pogroms?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:23:37 PM
They've been doing this stuff for like 40+ years.

Right, and all of the variants of Communism and its whistle-stop, socialism, are not much older than that. 3rd way socialism will do exactly the same thing, because it must.

'Kinder, gentler socialism' is socialism all the same.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:24:54 PM
Don’t avoid the question.  The US is already too heterogeneous for Scandinavian style socialism.  How are you going to rectify that?  Camps?  Gas?  Firing squads?  Or maybe just Stalinesque famine pogroms?

If I were in charge of everything I'd close the borders to all but the most productive people and kick out any immigrant that's a net loss to the cost of the federal government. I think that'd go a long way towards making it possible.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:26:30 PM
He'd have to be an illogical lunatic to invade western Europe.

Which tyrant ever wasn't?

Quote
If Russia puts somebody like that in power and gives them access to the nuclear arsenal we are in big trouble regardless of our presence in Europe.

That is the ever-present threat of centralized power - The very same centralized power you are selling here... just to a lesser degree... Which will not remain a 'lesser degree'.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 19, 2018, 10:27:24 PM
If I were in charge of everything I'd close the borders to all but the most productive people and kick out any immigrant that's a net loss to the cost of the federal government. I think that'd go a long way towards making it possible.

You really do not like the necessary implications of your own ideas.  Come on, own it.  Since blacks are a distinct social, cultural, and ethnic minority, you will have to get rid of them in order to accomplish the necessary homogeneity for Scandinavian socialism.  Will you gas the ghettoes, or just wall them in and starve them to death?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:29:34 PM
You really do not like the necessary implications of your own ideas.  Come on, own it.  Since blacks are a distinct social, cultural, and ethnic minority, you will have to get rid of them in order to accomplish the necessary homogeneity for Scandinavian socialism.  Will you gas the ghettoes, or just wall them in and starve them to death?

I just think you're wrong that it won't work because black people.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:33:35 PM
If we did something equivalent to what Sweden did and let 40 million people that don't speak English into the country it would probably make any social program impossible and have horrifying ramifications all throughout our society.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 19, 2018, 10:34:50 PM
That may be true, but that doesn't make people like Bernie evil. I think it's very important to make that distinction. Not doing so is dangerous.
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

These folks just wanted people's shoes to fit better. Who could argue with that idea?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 19, 2018, 10:35:37 PM
If we did something equivalent to what Sweden did and let 40 million people that don't speak English into the country it would probably make any social program impossible and have horrifying ramifications all throughout our society.
Si!

Oh, wait.....
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 19, 2018, 10:36:10 PM
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

No arguments there. Bad results aren't always caused by bad people.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 19, 2018, 10:36:33 PM
Si!

Oh, wait.....

EXACTLY!!!

 :beer:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 11:22:18 PM
Bernie claims that he doesn't stand for communism, but instead for something similar to what they do in the Scandinavian countries. He's never spoken of removing the private sector, which is a mandatory part of achieving communism. He wants rich people to pay a lot more taxes to offset the cost of things like universal healthcare and government funded college. I know a lot of conservatives think that's communism/socialism but that's just factually incorrect. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist.

@Dexter

The Swedes were able to get away with that for a couple of reasons,the prime ones being an educated population that WANTED to work,and all that North Shore oil money coming in to help pay for it. Mega oil bucks and a educated and hard-working SMALL population are the two prime factors.

Then they got cocky and started importing Muslim parasites as pets,so Sweden's days as a First World Nation are numbered.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 19, 2018, 11:32:19 PM

Maybe the Russians wouldn't be so sore at us if we didn't think they're basically as bad as Hitler and the Nazis.

@Dexter

Say WHAT????? The Soviets made the Nazi's look like child care workers by comparison. Do you know NOTHING of history?

Hell,they were even allies that split Poland between them before Hitler screwed Stalin by invading the USSR.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 19, 2018, 11:52:43 PM
@Dexter

The Swedes were able to get away with that for a couple of reasons,the prime ones being an educated population that WANTED to work,and all that North Shore oil money coming in to help pay for it. Mega oil bucks and a educated and hard-working SMALL population are the two prime factors.

Then they got cocky and started importing Muslim parasites as pets,so Sweden's days as a First World Nation are numbered.

Over time, their  welfare state will face more strain as, like us, their population ages
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 12:39:57 AM
@Dexter

Say WHAT????? The Soviets made the Nazi's look like child care workers by comparison. Do you know NOTHING of history?

Hell,they were even allies that split Poland between them before Hitler screwed Stalin by invading the USSR.

Cultures change. They're not what they once were. They're far from perfect obviously, but it's not the same anymore. We should be attempting to repair relations with Russia.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 01:57:53 AM
Driven people aren't going to give up because of higher taxes. It hasn't happened in the Scandinavian countries and it wouldn't happen here.

 So why has there been movement by businesses and people from higher tax states to lower tax states?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: verga on November 20, 2018, 08:23:03 AM
@Dexter

Again, what happens when "the rich" decide that higher taxes have taken away their incentive to work, and they choose to stay at home instead?  Who's going to pay for all the free stuff then?
The Tax System Explained - Using a Beer Analogy
8 April 2016
Esme Shakeshaft
Suppose that once a week, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to £100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7.
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
And the tenth man (the richest) would pay £59. 
So, that's what they decided to do.
 
The ten men drank in the bar every week and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until, one day, the owner caused them a little problem. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your weekly beer by £20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just £80.
 
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free but what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? They realized that £20 divided by six is £3.33 but if they subtracted that from everybody's share then not only would the first four men still be drinking for free but the fifth and sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. 

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fairer to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage. They decided to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

And so, the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (a100% saving).
The sixth man now paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33% saving).
The seventh man now paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28% saving).
The eighth man now paid £9 instead of £12 (a 25% saving).
The ninth man now paid £14 instead of £18 (a 22% saving).
And the tenth man now paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16% saving). 
Each of the last six was better off than before with the first four continuing to drink for free. 

But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got £1 out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got £10!" 
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a £1 too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!" 

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back, when I only got £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" 

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. 

The next week the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important - they didn't have enough money between all of them to pay for even half of the bill! 

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 08:58:37 AM
Bernie claims that he doesn't stand for communism, but instead for something similar to what they do in the Scandinavian countries. He's never spoken of removing the private sector, which is a mandatory part of achieving communism. He wants rich people to pay a lot more taxes to offset the cost of things like universal healthcare and government funded college. I know a lot of conservatives think that's communism/socialism but that's just factually incorrect. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist.

Sweden is going more capitalist all the time.
Why?
Because they have discovered that Scandinavian socialism just doesn't work, even in Scandinavia.
See "Sweden: Lessons for America?".
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:04:35 AM
Sweden is going more capitalist all the time.
Why?
Because they have discovered that Scandinavian socialism just doesn't work, even in Scandinavia.
See "Sweden: Lessons for America?".

Sweden has never not been capitalist. The main difference between left and right in Sweden is stances on immigration. The right has gained momentum recently because of immigration issues. The Scandinavian countries will never reverse course on their humanitarian priorities when it comes to their citizens. If the impression you got is that they'll stop universal healthcare, or stop subsidizing college costs for their young people, you are mistaken.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 20, 2018, 09:05:32 AM
Cultures change. They're not what they once were. They're far from perfect obviously, but it's not the same anymore. We should be attempting to repair relations with Russia.

@Dexter

This is one case where I am in complete agreement with you. I have been on record for years stating that the US,Russia,and England should be the "Big Three" Alliance. Now that England has invited Muslim invaders to just come right in and take over their country,they are on their own AFAIAC.

Still,America and Russia working together as allies are unbeatable. The Muslim uprising the globalists dream of would be squashed like a bug,and given the Russian tendency to be "Russians",would have too few survivors to continue when the smoke settled. Don't forget,the Russians have already lived in a Soviet police state,so they know what living in a police state is like,and there is no way in HELL they are going to roll over and live in a Muslim police state.

Between Clinton and Obomber,that seems less likely today than ever,though.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:09:03 AM
@Dexter

This is one case where I am in complete agreement with you. I have been on record for years stating that the US,Russia,and England should be the "Big Three" Alliance. Now that England has invited Muslim invaders to just come right in and take over their country,they are on their own AFAIAC.

Still,America and Russia working together as allies are unbeatable. The Muslim uprising the globalists dream of would be squashed like a bug,and given the Russian tendency to be "Russians",would have too few survivors to continue when the smoke settled. Don't forget,the Russians have already lived in a Soviet police state,so they know what living in a police state is like,and there is no way in HELL they are going to roll over and live in a Muslim police state.

Between Clinton and Obomber,that seems less likely today than ever,though.

We need to stop demonizing the Russians so much. We're not perfect either, y'know? They're a powerful and prideful people. They'd make amazing allies. I'm glad we're in agreement on this.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 09:11:00 AM
Periodically, the CBO assesses our fiscal situation and will state what needs to be done to try to repair it

I have yet to read a CBO report that recommends “free” healthcare and college for all as a remedy

And rising interest rates with 21 trillion in debt will complicate any new spending
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 20, 2018, 09:19:48 AM
Sweden has never not been capitalist. The main difference between left and right in Sweden is stances on immigration. The right has gained momentum recently because of immigration issues. The Scandinavian countries will never reverse course on their humanitarian priorities when it comes to their citizens. If the impression you got is that they'll stop universal healthcare, or stop subsidizing college costs for their young people, you are mistaken.

@Dexter

Really? What will happen when their industries all fail due to being forced to hire Muslim workers that don't give a damn about anything other than Islam and money,and the uber wealthy Swedes move all their money out of the country and invest it in Asia,for example,instead?

How are they going to continue to subsidize every goober with a pulse when the North Sea oil money isn't enough to cover expenses?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 09:23:27 AM
I have yet to read a CBO report that recommends “free” healthcare and college for all as a remedy

And rising interest rates with 21 trillion in debt will complicate any new spending

But . . . but . . . but "free stuff" isn't supposed to cost anything.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:25:05 AM
@Dexter

Really? What will happen when their industries all fail due to being forced to hire Muslim workers that don't give a damn about anything other than Islam and money,and the uber wealthy Swedes move all their money out of the country and invest it in Asia,for example,instead?

How are they going to continue to subsidize every goober with a pulse when the North Sea oil money isn't enough to cover expenses?

They're becoming harder on immigration rapidly because of what happened with the Muslim immigrants. They will correct that mistake. Their countries are not going to fall apart. Their economies are doing fine.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 20, 2018, 09:26:32 AM
We need to stop demonizing the Russians so much. We're not perfect either, y'know? They're a powerful and prideful people. They'd make amazing allies. I'm glad we're in agreement on this.

@Dexter

I have been to Russia a couple of times on vacation as a lone traveler,living in Russian hotels or apartments,and hiring local drivers,etc,etc,etc. It has been MY experience back in the 80's that most Russians really like Americans,but they seem to think we are all gullible fools because without exception EVER Russian I befriended warned me to "NEVER trust a Russian! They will lie to you!" I thought that was hilarious.

This was back right after the USSR imploded,and almost all the Russians I met were glad it failed and very happy to meet and socialize with an American. Then "Clinton happened",along with the theft of most of the World Bank funds given to help Russia survive the first winter after the collapse of their government,and it was followed by another 4 years of Clinton corruption and outright theft. I have been told that Americans are not as welcome there now as we were back then.

Putin,and the Russian people have damn good reasons to be suspicious of us,thanks to the freaking Clinton's,who ironically enough rose to power as Soviet agents.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:31:09 AM
Sweden has never not been capitalist. The main difference between left and right in Sweden is stances on immigration. The right has gained momentum recently because of immigration issues. The Scandinavian countries will never reverse course on their humanitarian priorities when it comes to their citizens. If the impression you got is that they'll stop universal healthcare, or stop subsidizing college costs for their young people, you are mistaken.

Now you are telling me I have gotten impressions that I never expressed?
There you go again, changing the tune.

I've made the statement, and stand by it 100% the the previous model of socialism they've employed since the 70's had to be changed, or else it would have collapsed.
They have just under 10 million people, so they can probably work out a system on healthcare and education issues that works for them.
They are smaller than a lot of our states.
States?
Oh yeah, that reminds me, we have a 10th amendment!
If the states want to subsidize college education and free healthcare, go ahead, but leave the Federal Government out of it.
One single version for over 300 million people would wreck the economy.


Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: endicom on November 20, 2018, 09:33:02 AM
@Dexter

Really? What will happen when their industries all fail due to being forced to hire Muslim workers that don't give a damn about anything other than Islam and money...


That problem preceded the Islamic influx and forced the government to be less generous to non-workers. The Islamic problem is its own thing.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:50:51 AM
Now you are telling me I have gotten impressions that I never expressed?
There you go again, changing the tune.

I've made the statement, and stand by it 100% the the previous model of socialism they've employed since the 70's had to be changed, or else it would have collapsed.
They have just under 10 million people, so they can probably work out a system on healthcare and education issues that works for them.
They are smaller than a lot of our states.
States?
Oh yeah, that reminds me, we have a 10th amendment!
If the states want to subsidize college education and free healthcare, go ahead, but leave the Federal Government out of it.
One single version for over 300 million people would wreck the economy.

I agree with letting the states decide, but our government won't let that happen either. The left and right step all over each other and everything gets screwed up for everybody. For the record the U.S has a lot more land and cash flow than Sweden. Our higher population doesn't make it impossible here.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:51:37 AM

That problem preceded the Islamic influx and forced the government to be less generous to non-workers. The Islamic problem is its own thing.


There is obviously a balance that must be found. They will continue to help people as much as is possible.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 20, 2018, 10:22:09 AM

There is obviously a balance that must be found. They will continue to help people as much as is possible.

@Dexter

Sing along!

"We iz da wurld.......

 We iz da peep-pulls......"
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 10:27:07 AM
Now you are telling me I have gotten impressions that I never expressed?
There you go again, changing the tune.

I've made the statement, and stand by it 100% the the previous model of socialism they've employed since the 70's had to be changed, or else it would have collapsed.
They have just under 10 million people, so they can probably work out a system on healthcare and education issues that works for them.
They are smaller than a lot of our states.
States?
Oh yeah, that reminds me, we have a 10th amendment!
If the states want to subsidize college education and free healthcare, go ahead, but leave the Federal Government out of it.
One single version for over 300 million people would wreck the economy.

 States have tried to implement universal healthcare.  The obstacle? Cost. It’s as simple as that. You cannot defeat math or economics
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 10:37:45 AM
States have tried to implement universal healthcare.  The obstacle? Cost. It’s as simple as that. You cannot defeat math or economics

Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 10:44:36 AM
Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it.

You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 10:47:07 AM
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.

Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 20, 2018, 10:50:37 AM
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.

Like with any consumer product or producer that is impacted by an increase in costs forced on them by the government...that increased cost gets passed along to the consumer.

Businesses have to pay higher costs for healthcare due to Obamacare being forced on them...they pass along the increase to the consumer to cover their own costs.  the alternative is to cut employees to cover the cost.

IIRC Medicare only pays doctors that take it .70 cents on the dollar and they take their sweet time reimbursing the doctors for the care they give.

Obamacare was trying to force doctors to accept .60 cents on the dollar at one point with the same slow repayment.

Doctors are small businessmen...they have costs...payrolls...staff that all have to get paid...to stay in business they ahve to increase the cost of the care they give to the people that can afford not to have Obamacare.

You want healthcare costs to come down...besides tort reform...get the government the hell out of the healthcare business...they don't belong there...not in the capacity they have put themselves in.

Amen to all you said.  Didn't GWB try to pass tort reform in Texas?  Seems like I remember that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: endicom on November 20, 2018, 10:56:02 AM
You want to get rid of that kind of cost.  Then push your Congress Critters to pass tort reform.

Healthcare costs are as sky high as they are due in large part to the amount of malpractice insurance an individual doctor or a hospital has to carry to protect itself from the slip and fall John Edwards type lawyers out there.


I was at an HMO clinic and seated outside the lounge/lunch room. The conversation inside was about little else than the costs of malpractice insurance. This was in 1990.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 11:00:07 AM
Amen to all you said.  Didn't GWB try to pass tort reform in Texas?  Seems like I remember that.

It was passed in 2003.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 11:50:15 AM
Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.

No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
It was passed in 2003.

And he was still pushing for it in 2005 to try and bring down toe out of control settlements in medical malpractice lawsuits.

To stop the John Edwards' of the word from channeling the the spirit of a dead child to sway a jury to give multi million dollar settlements in class action lawsuits based on shaky if not outright junk science.

I don't think any meaningful tort reform in that arena has been passed yet.  I seem to remember it still being discussed in 2010 about the time Obamacare was set to pass.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 11:57:05 AM
No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.

And Europe implemented their systems while we funded their defense during the Cold War. But they also have an aging population so their systems will face increasing pressures
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
And Europe implemented their systems while we funded their defense during the Cold War. But they also have an aging population so their systems will face increasing pressures

Exactly.  Their birthrate replacement levels have been dangerously low for decades...hence the reason countries like Germany have been taking in so many refugees...they need the bodies to do the jobs.

The populations are old and dying and causing a bigger and bigger drain on the system.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 12:04:23 PM
No we couldn't.  What the left fails to take into consideration when using European health care as an example of something we should use here is the vast population differences between the European countries and the U.S.

It's a lot easier to pull off government run health care in a country of 20 million than it is in a country of 320 million.

A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 12:15:03 PM
We are the richest country on Earth.

The implementation of socialism will change all that.  Nothing puts a dent in GDP quite like government replacing the free market.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 12:21:34 PM
A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.

A smaller population with higher European tax rates is what allows socialized medicine to work in Europe and why it wouldn't work here.

Those European countries have high income taxes plus state and their equivalent of federal tax rates.  All used to fund their Socialist way of life.

Outside of our corporate rates we don't have the extremely high confiscatory tax rates that Europe does and that would be needed in a country of 320 million to have single payer healthcare.

Now if you want to crank up our tax rates in individual income to about 45% across the board and implement say a 19% VAT tax on all goods people buy like countries like Germany have...then it might work.


But at the end of the day what the liberals talk about and what people think they are hearing are completely different.

Liberals talk about health insurance coverage for everyone...not medical care for everyone.  Nowhere in what they say do they guarentee medical care for what ails you.  Even Obama brazenly admitted that during a speech.

And all people hear is "free" and they stop listening right there...and they miss the rest of what is being sold to them.

So you'll have health insurance...but that won't equate to getting treated in a timely manner if at all for what is wrong with you.

Got cancer and it's in Stage 3?  in America right now you'll get the best care possible by a cancer doc to rid you of the cancer and help you to live a long and fruitful life for however long that might be depending on your age.

In the Obamacare/Socialized Medicine world...it's cheaper to "manage" the disease by giving you medicines to ease your pain as the cancer ravages your body and kills you.



Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 12:24:53 PM
Liberals talk about health insurance coverage for everyone...not medical care for everyone.  Nowhere in what they say do they guarentee medical care for what ails you.  Even Obama brazenly admitted that during a speech.

Obamacare is horrible, and also Obama would be considered pretty right wing in most European countries. Bernie is talking about medical care for everyone.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 12:30:25 PM
Obamacare is horrible, and also Obama would be considered pretty right wing in most European countries.

Obama is on the record as saying Obamacare is a stepping stone to the Liberals eventual goal of Single Payer government run healthcare.

Obama was only kept in check by a Republican House and Senate for 6 of his 8 years in office.  Otherwise the damage he'd have been to the left of most Socialist leaders in Europe.


Bernie is talking about medical care for everyone.
[/quote]

Of course he is...but he doesn't talk about the increase to the deficit...to the tune of 2.3 trillion dollars...it would add to already out of control federal spending.

Who's gonna pay for that?  As of 2016 every child born starts out with $42K in debt because of what we're spending today.

We're literally bankrupting our children and in my case grandchildren's future for feel good measures that actually take us backwards as a society like socialized medicine.

And the sad thing is young people these das think it's a right to have health insurance.

Show me where healthcare is a right.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 12:35:36 PM
Quote
Myth 3: It Would Provide Insurance Coverage to All

Champions of a single-payer emphasize that even with implementation of the Affordable Care Act, millions of Americans still lack health coverage—and they see single-payer as a solution. They argue that if the government created a single-payer option, similar to what Medicare today provides to people over the age of 65, all eligible Americans would have an insurance card. But the question is, What would be the value of that coverage in the future?

Healthcare costs are rising faster than our ability to pay and, as a result, prices are increasing in parallel at an accelerated rate. This is a fundamental business truism. Over time, price and cost must parallel each other. The drivers of cost inflation are drug prices rising at double-digit rates, new medical technology increasing expenditures on procedures, wages going up in response to labor shortages, and expensive regulatory requirements. Price controls in this environment can’t work.

Soon after implementation of a government-run, single-payer system, Congress would have to progressively increase taxes, reduce payments to doctors and hospitals or do both. The former won’t be palatable to the American people or the current Congress, and the latter will result in a two-tier system, with prolonged delays in access for those without added private coverage. This is what exists today in most countries that have implemented a government-run, single-payer system. We can get a glimpse of this by looking at the difference in care provided to the poor through Medicaid. Over time, if our nation tried this approach more broadly, that would become the experience of the middle class as well.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2017/03/16/why-a-government-run-single-payer-healthcare-approach-is-doomed-to-fail/#28eca6f92d81 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertpearl/2017/03/16/why-a-government-run-single-payer-healthcare-approach-is-doomed-to-fail/#28eca6f92d81)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 12:38:11 PM
Of course he is...but he doesn't talk about the increase to the deficit...to the tune of 2.3 trillion dollars...it would add to already out of control federal spending.

Who's gonna pay for that?  As of 2016 every child born starts out with $42K in debt because of what we're spending today.

We're literally bankrupting our children and in my case grandchildren's future for feel good measures that actually take us backwards as a society like socialized medicine.

And the sad thing is young people these das think it's a right to have health insurance.

Show me where healthcare is a right.

I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

(http://www.silkyquote.com/upload/quote_author_images/bruce-lee-quotes-if-you-think-a-thing-is-impossible-youll-only-make-it-impossible-0238025519-quotes.jpg)

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: jmyrlefuller on November 20, 2018, 12:40:08 PM
A country of 320 million has a lot more cash flow than a country of 20 million. I don't think the population argument works. Bigger population = more taxes to work with. We are the richest country on Earth.
Far more people take from health care than pay into it.

Most of socialized Europe does not have the wealth inequality that America, with barons like Jeff Bezos cornering whole sectors of the economy, has. To successfully pull off single-payer, it would take confiscatory tax rates on those barons, higher than even the rates in Europe, simply because there are fewer of them compared to how many would take advantage of the system.

Either that, or you'd have to ration access to the system. Much of rural America is already dangerously short on medical care, which is a real problem. Obamacare tried to force people into a system they'd rarely, if ever, be able to use.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 12:40:27 PM
Show me where healthcare is a right.

It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level. Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 12:48:27 PM
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: jmyrlefuller on November 20, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level. Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.
The high price of health care in America is driven by a shortage of it. Then, pile on the onerous cost of medical school which doctors then pass on the costs to their patients, and you realize the American system is built upon the premise of shortage.

Imposing a European system will only shift the costs to the government, which in turn passes those back to the people or into debt (which our country seems to be so adept at doing lately, but such luck probably won't last forever). It doesn't actually cut the obscene prices we have today, or increase access to doctors that are already overworked.

You can't guarantee basic access to a service commodity when there isn't enough of it to go around, and it is literally unconstitutional to force another person or entity to serve you in a medical capacity or otherwise.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 12:54:05 PM
Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?

@Hoodat

 :amen:

And I’ve been working in the healthcare field for 30 years. And many government run healthcare programs such as Medicare and Medicaid have been already slashing benefits. In fact, if you’re on Medicare you better have private insurance if you want to get good care
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 12:54:44 PM
It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level.

Everyone in this country already has access to basic healthcare.


Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.

Yet you seem to be OK with people dying because the rationing of health care leaves some people going without.

Oh, and for the record, it isn't about money.  Fully one-sixth of our GDP goes towards health care costs.  This is the highest in the world.  So no, people aren't dying in this country because they don't happen to have enough money.  However, in other countries, people are indeed dying because government has replaced the individual as the health care consumer.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: goodwithagun on November 20, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
Do you think it's possible to somehow bring the costs of healthcare down to the point that it is possible? You're right. It'll never be cost possible as long as hospitals are charging people 50 dollars for a Tylenol and 100 dollars for a bag with water in it.

You’re right, and the only way to bring costs down is to eliminate any federal or state health insurance requirements. When employers and governments are no longer required to provide health insurance, you’ll see prices drop to levels that working class families can afford to pay out of pocket.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 01:06:38 PM
You’re right, and the only way to bring costs down is to eliminate any federal or state health insurance requirements. When employers and governments are no longer required to provide health insurance, you’ll see prices drop to levels that working class families can afford to pay out of pocket.

You got that right.  Before Obamacare, my daughter had an individual policy with a $500 deductible that gave here everything she wanted.  It cost her $118/month.  After Obamacare, the only thing that came close was a policy with a $5,800 deductible.  It cost $300/month.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Everyone in this country already has access to basic healthcare.


Yet you seem to be OK with people dying because the rationing of health care leaves some people going without.

Oh, and for the record, it isn't about money.  Fully one-sixth of our GDP goes towards health care costs.  This is the highest in the world.  So no, people aren't dying in this country because they don't happen to have enough money.  However, in other countries, people are indeed dying because government has replaced the individual as the health care consumer.

I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 20, 2018, 01:46:49 PM
I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

I went to an emergency room at a hospital in Irving one time.  My husband had some kind of emergency.

It was a real eye-opener for me.

While I was there with him, three Black families came in, one after another.  They were bringing their children because of head lice.  All families were treated with care and respect.  They were given help and instructions on how to deal with the lice.

We DO all have emergency health care.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
I used to work in an emergency room and there was a sign inside the door that said “everybody will be treated regardless of ability to pay” that’s the law

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 01:58:06 PM
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.


Your problem is you're looking at this strictly from an emotional point of view.  You're not looking at it logically from any fact based perspective.  Your perspective is completely driven by emotion.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

(http://www.silkyquote.com/upload/quote_author_images/bruce-lee-quotes-if-you-think-a-thing-is-impossible-youll-only-make-it-impossible-0238025519-quotes.jpg)

It's simple history.
If we could do this correctly (whatever that may mean), and efficiently, you wouldn't be hearing horror stories about the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid.
If they can't provide proper healthcare to these smaller segments of the population, why do you think they will be able to do so if we add everyone?
The conversations HAS been had and the evidence IS in.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 02:17:18 PM
Your problem is you're looking at this strictly from an emotional point of view.  You're not looking at it logically from any fact based perspective.  Your perspective is completely driven by emotion.

If 400 million+ people in Europe can make national healthcare work then so can the United States. Things can and should be adjusted. If you think that's impossible I think you severely underestimate American intelligence and ingenuity. To me nationalism is about elevating all Americans as much as possible. I want us to be the healthiest and most educated country on Earth. I want us to produce state of the art technology that's the envy of the world, and when they buy it from us I want a big god damn American flag on it so they never forget who kicks the most ass. I just don't see it your way and I never will. I try to use my logic and my emotions when sorting through these issues. I think balance is necessary.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 02:18:16 PM
It's simple history.
If we could do this correctly (whatever that may mean), and efficiently, you wouldn't be hearing horror stories about the VA, Medicare, and Medicaid.
If they can't provide proper healthcare to these smaller segments of the population, why do you think they will be able to do so if we add everyone?
The conversations HAS been had and the evidence IS in.

We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 20, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 You have demonstrated with this that you don’t know  what emergency care is
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 02:30:08 PM
You have demonstrated with this that you don’t know what emergency care is

I must be pretty clueless to not understand what emergency care is.

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: austingirl on November 20, 2018, 02:33:21 PM
Conservatives are having that conversation with you right now.  And it's not because we aren't looking for the possibilities because we aren't interested in the prospect.  We are looking at the historical evidence as well as the practicalities of what is needed.  The Conservative approach on these threads has been to ask questions about problems that could (and will) arise.  And each and every time, you have abstained from addressing them.  So if here is anyone here who doesn't want to have the conversation, it is you.

You have been asked about maximizing tax revenue.  You have been asked about removing incentives to work.  You have been asked about current deficits, service shortfalls, monopoly inefficiency, the failures of current socialist systems, and even Bernie Sanders' own words.  And each and every time, you have refused to have the conversation. 

The ball is in your court.  Conservatives here have shown an eagerness to engage in conversation.  They have shown a willingness to discuss feasibility and implementation.  Why haven't you?
@Hoodat

Bravo, excellent post. 888high58888
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: austingirl on November 20, 2018, 02:38:25 PM
Look at England where they have public healthcare. They have a two tier system and anyone with money goes to a private doctor. Look at Canada where the waiting list is months long for basic surgeries and rather than wait, Canadiens with money come to the US for surgery. Seems like it all boils down to money.

Healthcare is a service provided by trained people who spent money to be educated in the field so they could be licensed and provide the service. Much of the cost is for personnel. I suppose some want the providers to work for little to no money. Sounds like a brilliant socialist idea.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 02:44:40 PM
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

If my 3 examples of what we have tried so in the US do not convince you, perhaps nothing will, but I'll try this:


The social welfare model is crumbling as the European Union fragments. Falling birthrates and increasing lifespans, moreover, are shrinking Europe's labor market. As their economies languish, many EU members, especially those in Southern Europe, have begun relying on debt to finance their increasingly unsustainable welfare systems. And proposed solutions to this problem, such as drawing in more migrants to join the workforce, increasing the retirement age, raising taxes or cutting social spending, have met with public backlash. Instead of curtailing spending, Europe's early health care reforms will likely focus on incentivizing efficiency. Taking away what voters have come to expect from their governments would be a risky endeavor for Europe's leaders. Besides, the cracks already are starting to show in the long-standing socialized system as for-profit hospitals pop up across the Continent.


...it could just be the reality that any of these universal health care systems are doomed to failure, given enough time, wrong demographics,waste, abuse, fraud, etc.

It may have nothing to do with how "really freaking stupid we are" or if "our potential far exceeds theirs".

One's own health care is an awfully powerful thing to leave in the hands of bureaucrats.......




Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 20, 2018, 03:17:27 PM
Details aside for just a moment, do you think it would be possible for us to lower those prices and then emulate European healthcare? I'm not asking if you agree with it, just if you think it would be possible.
Why emulate the second string?  Many of the costs inherent in the healthcare system are government imposed: HIPAA cost so much more for one local doctor (just to have people to fill out the paperwork so he could see patients) that he finally just quit. When patients get treated and do not pay (despite obamacare, there are a host of 'undocumented' patients), and those most likely to need the highest levels of critical care (ER, trauma surgery) aren't generally the wealthiest, but those who are busy shooting each other in inner cities. There are far too many freebie seekers, and the government restructuring of insurance plans has made it more difficult for those who don't just get insurance at work to carry coverage to at least defray the costs of the most severe medical circumstances.

Typically, the government has made the problem worse, not better.

Hospitals, doctors, extended care/rehab facilities (not drug rehab, but injury rehab) are all businesses. If they can't run in the black, there will be no new equipment, no paint on the walls, no incentive to not be a stockbroker or CPA instead. You can love what you do, but you can't continue to do it at a loss. You want people who literally hold the life or death of a patient in their hands to work for chump change? Won't happen, as a rule.
Consider as much as half their gross will go to insurance payments for malpractice insurance, and the rest is a disincentive to pursue the field.

If the best and brightest don't go into medicine, that bodes ill for the future.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 03:38:33 PM
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

And you're really naive if you think that the European way works better than ours.

I lived there for 6 years and saw how it worked for Europeans.

It doesn't work near as well as you think it does.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 20, 2018, 03:53:48 PM
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

Sure.  Radically limit damages for personal injuries, cut back on medical malpractice claims, and let people die from mostly age-related illnesses that they don’t die from over here.  Let it take six months to a year or longer between the time your doctor orders heart valve replacement surgery and the time it’s scheduled to happen.  A significant number of the affected will “voluntarily” contribute to cost-cutting by dying before their surgery is scheduled.  Oh, and find a sugar-daddy who will pay for the development of the miracle drugs you sell at low prices, because price controls will kill off this country’s pharma research. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 20, 2018, 04:03:49 PM
And you're really naive if you think that the European way works better than ours.

I lived there for 6 years and saw how it worked for Europeans.

It doesn't work near as well as you think it does.

It's no better in England.  I had a dear friend in my church who was a British war bride who made a good career for herself in banking.  She was always nostalgic about England.

 A few years after her husband died, she sold everything and moved back.  It wasn't a month before harsh reality and deep disappointment set in.

  Not only was her family not as great as she remembered but the health care she thought would be great was horrible.  She wrote me saying 'she'd made the biggest mistake of her life.'  It took her a year to return but the whole thing took a toll on her health.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 04:15:11 PM
Sure.  Radically limit damages for personal injuries, cut back on medical malpractice claims, and let people die from mostly age-related illnesses that they don’t die from over here.  Let it take six months to a year or longer between the time your doctor orders heart valve replacement surgery and the time it’s scheduled to happen.  A significant number of the affected will “voluntarily” contribute to cost-cutting by dying before their surgery is scheduled.  Oh, and find a sugar-daddy who will pay for the development of the miracle drugs you sell at low prices, because price controls will kill off this country’s pharma research.

...other than that, we'd be perfectly fine..... :cool:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 04:24:42 PM
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

We must be really freaking stupid to insist that this will work here without devoting a second of critical thought and reason to the equation.  Besides, it wouldn't be fair to Canadians who rely on the US hospitals to treat the ailments that are left untreated in Canada.

But it is clear to the rest of us that you want less doctors, less hospitals, considerably less money spent, longer waits, lower medical availability, and lower quality care just so we can be like Europe.  Because that is EXACTLY what your emotions are advocating.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 04:32:55 PM
If the best and brightest don't go into medicine, that bodes ill for the future.

Currently, the best and brightest all over the world come to the United States to practice medicine.  In Canada, 88% of medical school graduates leave Canada to become doctors elsewhere.  If the financing of our healthcare industry becomes marginalized through government takeover, then we will lose this uptake of the best and brightest.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 04:51:33 PM
If the financing of our healthcare industry becomes marginalized through government takeover, then we will lose this uptake of the best and brightest.

Which country without universal healthcare would they go to?

 :pondering:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 05:56:48 PM
They would most likely remain in their home country.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 05:58:51 PM
I simply don't believe these things are impossible to do efficiently somehow. I think conservatives aren't looking for those possibilities because they're simply not interested in the prospect. They don't want to have that conversation.

That is the point - there is no efficiency the minute you do it by government.
You have been given your answer throughout this conversation - It is YOU who doesn't want to hear it:

Government is NEVER the answer. The government powerful enough to do what you want is powerful enough to do what IT wants, and that has never been a good thing.

If you want cheap, excellent health care, then knock out the things that are propping up the price and let the free market work. What is propping up the price? The number one thing is government. The next thing is insurance. Follow with tort reform and regulations and licensing.... ALL of these things prop up the market and cause the cost to be artificially high. What you propose not only will further increase the cost, but will lock it into a governmental monopoly - The very worst case of all.

And further, restore the ability of non-profit charitable orgs to be in the business of health care. In my youth, churches owned all the hospitals except pitiable county hospitals... At the time, a churches' balance sheet was treated en-toto, with a bottom line providing whether or not they could maintain non-profit status.  Some time in the 70's that changed. Changes in law made it to where individual aspects of a charity were taken on their own merit - Since healthcare was a profitable sector, it caused churches to get out of hospitals and clinics, because they could no longer 'hide' the 'profit' by shifting it to feeding the poor or some such...

In a single sweep, the federal government gave healthcare to for-profit businesses, and greatly diminished the Church in all aspects of charity (by removing their money generating health systems) - Supercharging the 'need' for federal welfare and federal healthcare.

Now insurance companies own the hospitals and hospitals own the doctor groups... Can't you see how that is a problem? Give it back to the Church. The Church does charity naturally, and way better than business or government ever will.
   
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 20, 2018, 06:23:15 PM
It's no better in England.  I had a dear friend in my church who was a British war bride who made a good career for herself in banking.  She was always nostalgic about England.

 A few years after her husband died, she sold everything and moved back.  It wasn't a month before harsh reality and deep disappointment set in.

  Not only was her family not as great as she remembered but the health care she thought would be great was horrible.  She wrote me saying 'she'd made the biggest mistake of her life.'  It took her a year to return but the whole thing took a toll on her health.

2-3 years ago IIRC there was a big NHS scandal about hiding numbers of people who'd died from lack of care at one of the Hospitals in England. 

The VA and all the problems...backlogs of people waiting for care...hidden waiting lists and corruption should be all the reason we need not to nationalize health care for the entire country.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 20, 2018, 06:23:49 PM
And further, restore the ability of non-profit charitable orgs to be in the business of health care. In my youth, churches owned all the hospitals except pitiable county hospitals... At the time, a churches' balance sheet was treated en-toto, with a bottom line providing whether or not they could maintain non-profit status.  Some time in the 70's that changed. Changes in law made it to where individual aspects of a charity were taken on their own merit - Since healthcare was a profitable sector, it caused churches to get out of hospitals and clinics, because they could no longer 'hide' the 'profit' by shifting it to feeding the poor or some such...

In a single sweep, the federal government gave healthcare to for-profit businesses, and greatly diminished the Church in all aspects of charity (by removing their money generating health systems) - Supercharging the 'need' for federal welfare and federal healthcare.

Back in the 60s when Medicaid was first proposed, the AMA fought it bitterly.  At the time, there wasn't a doctor in America who didn't give free service to the poor.  It was simply part of being a doctor - to take care of people, house calls and all.

Unfortunately, government won out.  And in an instant, doctors stopped giving out free service to the poor.  They stopped making house calls too.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 06:30:36 PM
It seems noble to want all people to have access to basic healthcare regardless of their income level. Being okay with people dying because they don't have enough money seems...wrong. I think we can do better than that.

Yes... It SEEMS noble.

Think.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 06:42:58 PM
We must be really freaking stupid if we can't figure out how to make this stuff work at least as well as it does in Europe. I happen to think our potential far exceeds theirs.

It doesn't work well in Europe... They come HERE for what they cannot get...
I invite you to see what you are selling, via a clip from Crowder, a Canadian, well familiar with that 'vaunted' system, so often hailed by liberals:

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw#)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 06:53:04 PM
Back in the 60s when Medicaid was first proposed, the AMA fought it bitterly.  At the time, there wasn't a doctor in America who didn't give free service to the poor.  It was simply part of being a doctor - to take care of people, house calls and all.

Unfortunately, government won out.  And in an instant, doctors stopped giving out free service to the poor.  They stopped making house calls too.

The only medical entity to fully and wholly write off my bill was St. Patricks in Missoula, at the time, at least, still a church hospital... Their take on it:

We're just going to write you off. When God gives you back your health, please remember that we did.

And I do.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 08:47:31 PM
It doesn't work well in Europe

Why does the European public disagree? Public approval of healthcare in Europe is far higher than in the states. In some places it has a 94% approval.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 08:56:33 PM
Why does the European public disagree? Public approval of healthcare in Europe is far higher than in the states. In some places it has a 94% approval.

They don't know the difference. Ask those who do, like the friend of a friend I know in Wales, who literally came here, became indigent, and went on welfare to be treated for cancer that he could not be treated for in Europe. It would have killed him there, because the system would not treat him. They hung him out to die.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 08:58:54 PM
They don't know the difference. Ask those who do, like the friend of a friend I know in Wales, who literally came here, became indigent, and went on welfare to be treated for cancer that he could not be treated for in Europe. It would have killed him there, because the system would not treat him. They hung him out to die.

Why is public approval of our healthcare system so low compared to Europe?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:09:25 PM
They don't know the difference.

True, Germany started in the late 1800's, and I figure the latest in Europe has  been around since the 70's, meaning European Adults born in in the 1950's and later know no any other way.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:13:07 PM
Why is public approval of our healthcare system so low compared to Europe?

They have been told by our MSM and the left wing that the only hope is Government control over the healthcare system, and those who have a low approval believe this.
It's all they've heard since Hillary tried to start Hillarycare back when she was First Lady. That was over 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:15:39 PM
They have been told by our MSM and the left wing that the only hope is Government control over the healthcare system, and those who have a low approval believe this.
It's all they've heard since Hillary tried to start Hillarycare back when she was First Lady. That was over 20 years ago.

I think approval over there is way higher because their healthcare works a lot better for average people. American healthcare is only the best in the world if you're rich.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:22:40 PM
I think approval over there is way higher because their healthcare works a lot better for average people. American healthcare is only the best in the world if you're rich.

I disagree.
Only in rural areas is healthcare lacking, due to the expanse and proximity to the providers, which would also be an issue anywhere in the world, including Europe.
The suburbs are fine, and the inner cities are where most the major hospitals and medical centers are located.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:23:27 PM
Why is public approval of our healthcare system so low compared to Europe?

Because it SUCKS, especially since Obamacare. That does not mean that socialist heathcare is better.'Or that it has a more robust safety net. It does not.

True healthcare reform in the USA will not include socializing medicine. That WILL make it worse, not better.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: goodwithagun on November 20, 2018, 09:24:23 PM
Why does the European public disagree? Public approval of healthcare in Europe is far higher than in the states. In some places it has a 94% approval.

Listen up. I’m a 39 year old cancer patient that started her journey at 36. I have an amazing professional firefighter husband (read that as 24 hour+ shifts), and three kids 10 and under. My oldest is on the high functioning end of the spectrum with a near genius IQ and an eidetic memory. His little sisters are already testing into advanced classes in the private school we gladly pay for. My first bout at this landed us in $20K medical debt that we couldn’t write off. It ecrued over eight months, but in two calendar years. Now we start again down the same path and we’re discussing going to Harvard for my radiology diagnosis. That is where I got my previous diagnosis (AFTER 7 MONTHS) so it makes the most sense.

I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:29:35 PM
I disagree.
Only in rural areas is healthcare lacking, due to the expanse and proximity to the providers, which would also be an issue anywhere in the world, including Europe.
The suburbs are fine, and the inner cities are where most the major hospitals and medical centers are located.

I really don't think that enormous difference in approval can be chalked up to the things you've claimed.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:30:17 PM
I think approval over there is way higher because their healthcare works a lot better for average people. American healthcare is only the best in the world if you're rich.

That is an utter lie.  Total bullshit.
I lost EVERYTHING due to illness, and wound up in a wheelchair, on welfare.
I had as good of care on welfare disability as ever, with the exception of dental care and chiropractic (and other alt means).
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:30:24 PM
Listen up. I’m a 39 year old cancer patient that started her journey at 36. I have an amazing professional firefighter husband (read that as 24 hour+ shifts), and three kids 10 and under. My oldest is on the high functioning end of the spectrum with a near genius IQ and an eidetic memory. His little sisters are already testing into advanced classes in the private school we gladly pay for. My first bout at this landed us in $20K medical debt that we couldn’t write off. It ecrued over eight months, but in two calendar years. Now we start again down the same path and we’re discussing going to Harvard for my radiology diagnosis. That is where I got my previous diagnosis (AFTER 7 MONTHS) so it makes the most sense.

I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.

Thanks  @goodwithagun, and God bless you and your family.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:31:35 PM
Because it SUCKS, especially since Obamacare. That does not mean that socialist heathcare is better.'Or that it has a more robust safety net. It does not.

True healthcare reform in the USA will not include socializing medicine. That WILL make it worse, not better.

So we can at least agree that what they have is a lot better than what we have right now?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:32:24 PM
That is an utter lie.  Total bullshit.
I lost EVERYTHING due to illness, and wound up in a wheelchair, on welfare.
I had as good of care on welfare disability as ever, with the exception of dental care and chiropractic (and other alt means).

I think you would have been cared for in Europe without having to lose everything due to your illness.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on November 20, 2018, 09:34:32 PM
I think approval over there is way higher because their healthcare works a lot better for average people. American healthcare is only the best in the world if you're rich.

Bullshit @Dexter
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:35:02 PM
So we can at least agree that what they have is a lot better than what we have right now?

No, they absolutely do not... And I speak with authority wrt Canada - They come HERE for health. Often. Being 70 miles from the border, we get Canadian 'health vacationers' here a ton.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:36:01 PM
I think you would have been cared for in Europe without having to lose everything due to your illness.

That is absurd if that is the case.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 09:37:11 PM
That is absurd if that is the case.

I agree.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 20, 2018, 09:37:19 PM
I really don't think that enormous difference in approval can be chalked up to the things you've claimed.

I agree that the disapproval is real, but due to propaganda.
The government has screwed this up, even pre-Obama, which you've seen some things write about here, and every government attempt to fix it has made it even worse.
They don't want this for altruistic reasons, they want the power to control.
Healthcare is something everyone needs at one time or another and is roughly 1/6 of the economy.

Control the healthcare, and you can control everything from travel habits to diet.
Just claim this or that is unhealthy, and you can tax it, or threaten to withhold treatment to people involved in behaviors not sanctioned by the government.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:37:39 PM
I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.

RIGHT ON!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: goodwithagun on November 20, 2018, 09:39:14 PM
Thanks  @goodwithagun, and God bless you and your family.

Thank you. It’s a tough road to hoe, but my kids need to know how to face adversity. I’m more than willing to model it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 20, 2018, 09:44:51 PM
Listen up. I’m a 39 year old cancer patient that started her journey at 36. I have an amazing professional firefighter husband (read that as 24 hour+ shifts), and three kids 10 and under. My oldest is on the high functioning end of the spectrum with a near genius IQ and an eidetic memory. His little sisters are already testing into advanced classes in the private school we gladly pay for. My first bout at this landed us in $20K medical debt that we couldn’t write off. It ecrued over eight months, but in two calendar years. Now we start again down the same path and we’re discussing going to Harvard for my radiology diagnosis. That is where I got my previous diagnosis (AFTER 7 MONTHS) so it makes the most sense.

I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.

So sorry about the problems and so glad you have a sterling husband and three great kids to help you through it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 09:45:12 PM
I agree.

You seemed to be promoting it - that 'if we were more like Europe I would not have had to lose everything'...

I think that is morally and statistically absurd...

Of COURSE I had to lose everything before appealing to my fellows to give me a hand up. OF COURSE relying on their charity and largess came only after expending every resource I had.

Though even that is not precisely true - I did not lose my home. And I did not lose a vehicle to get around... Even destitute in America ain't so bad... But I DID have to burn up my other properties, and all my other titled vehicles and UL listed equipment.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 10:18:07 PM
True, Germany started in the late 1800's, and I figure the latest in Europe has  been around since the 70's, meaning European Adults born in in the 1950's and later know no any other way.

That's right, and equally, the other way around... I think you and I are probably old enough to remember what it was like here before, as compared to now... And folks here don't know anywhere near how well they've got it, EVEN YET.

I DO know. I have never worked for anyone since my teens... Made my own way... And worked myself all the way up to upper middle class, with a business worth more than me... And I saw it all leave, to include just about all of it, so I know all about welfare and medicare/medicaid.

Now, on the way back up, I can tell folks with all honesty that the bottom of the barrel is not the hard part - it is that first rung up that is the doozie... Especially as disabled. The place there ain't enough help is right there on that first rung that will get you off the system, and back on your own two feet. The system is set up to penalize that first rung, not encourage it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 10:57:21 PM
That's right, and equally, the other way around... I think you and I are probably old enough to remember what it was like here before, as compared to now... And folks here don't know anywhere near how well they've got it, EVEN YET.

I DO know. I have never worked for anyone since my teens... Made my own way... And worked myself all the way up to upper middle class, with a business worth more than me... And I saw it all leave, to include just about all of it, so I know all about welfare and medicare/medicaid.

Now, on the way back up, I can tell folks with all honesty that the bottom of the barrel is not the hard part - it is that first rung up that is the doozie... Especially as disabled. The place there ain't enough help is right there on that first rung that will get you off the system, and back on your own two feet. The system is set up to penalize that first rung, not encourage it.

I think you shouldn't have had to lose so much because you got sick.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 20, 2018, 11:21:02 PM
I think you shouldn't have had to lose so much because you got sick.

I think you are wrong.
There has to be risk.
If there is no risk, there is no profit.
Somebody gets to lose. In this case, it was me.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 20, 2018, 11:31:20 PM
I think you are wrong.
There has to be risk.
If there is no risk, there is no profit.
Somebody gets to lose. In this case, it was me.

Making it so people won't lose everything when they get sick is not going to stop people from seeking upward momentum.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 21, 2018, 12:10:24 AM
Making it so people won't lose everything when they get sick is not going to stop people from seeking upward momentum.

Right. The taxes for a social program of that magnitude would stop people from seeking upward momentum.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Frank Cannon on November 21, 2018, 12:29:02 AM
It amuses the hell out of me that we cranked out ten pages over someone who is barely literate and doesn't know what the three branches of govt' are. The only reason she won this election is because NY State couldn't get their act together on a Primary election law. She is about as irrelevant to the real world as unicorns and Britney Spears.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 21, 2018, 06:33:33 AM
Making it so people won't lose everything when they get sick is not going to stop people from seeking upward momentum.

Why don’t we make it so that nobody has to lose anything when anything bad happens?   Invested in a Ponzi scheme?  Oh well, the taxpayers will make it all better. 

Shit happens, and oftentimes it’s not fair. 

And as for stopping the losses:  that’s what the bankruptcy laws are for.  You don’t lose everything.

It’d be nice to see some thinking through on your part, rather than simply believing in fairies, unicorns, and infinite free cash from the taxpayers.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 21, 2018, 07:32:47 AM
Why don’t we make it so that nobody has to lose anything when anything bad happens?   Invested in a Ponzi scheme?  Oh well, the taxpayers will make it all better. 

Shit happens, and oftentimes it’s not fair. 

And as for stopping the losses:  that’s what the bankruptcy laws are for.  You don’t lose everything.

It’d be nice to see some thinking through on your part, rather than simply believing in fairies, unicorns, and infinite free cash from the taxpayers.

I think we both knows that a national healthcare system is not "fairies and unicorns."
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 21, 2018, 07:35:00 AM
I think we both knows that a national healthcare system is not "fairies and unicorns."

Really?  Then why do so many of the beneficiaries of national healthcare systems come over here for care?

Socialist healthcare is great for the minor booboos; it sucks for real healthcare emergencies. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 21, 2018, 07:40:02 AM
Really?  Then why do so many of the beneficiaries of national healthcare systems come over here for care?

Because they're rich, and healthcare here is the best in the world if you're rich. If you're not rich then you're better off in Europe.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 21, 2018, 08:00:54 AM
Because they're rich, and healthcare here is the best in the world if you're rich. If you're not rich then you're better off in Europe.

Not true at all.  My in-laws, neither of whom is rich, both received heart valve replacement surgery here that they would not have received in Europe. 

Get your facts straight, then take some Econ 101 classes, and then come discuss. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 21, 2018, 08:30:24 AM
It amuses the hell out of me that we cranked out ten pages over someone who is barely literate and doesn't know what the three branches of govt' are. The only reason she won this election is because NY State couldn't get their act together on a Primary election law. She is about as irrelevant to the real world as unicorns and Britney Spears.

I agree

or

I disagree.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 09:13:49 AM
So we can at least agree that what they have is a lot better than what we have right now?

Because care wise...it's not.  My son has been treated twice in the German healthcare system due to location of where his injury ocurred.

Their system is not better than what we have right now.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 21, 2018, 09:37:03 AM
I think we both knows that a national healthcare system is not "fairies and unicorns."

Yes, in fact, it is.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 09:59:58 AM
Why does the European public disagree? Public approval of healthcare in Europe is far higher than in the states. In some places it has a 94% approval.

@Dexter

Since what they have is all they know,what are they comparing it to,and why do so many Europeans come to the US and other countries for surgeries?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:01:23 AM
Why is public approval of our healthcare system so low compared to Europe?

@Dexter

Because America is full of idealistic fools like you that dream of getting something for nothing,and never once allow logic or reality to intrude on your brain farts.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Oceander on November 21, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Why does the European public disagree? Public approval of healthcare in Europe is far higher than in the states. In some places it has a 94% approval.

Perhaps they simply don’t know what they’re missing. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:03:04 AM
They have been told by our MSM and the left wing that the only hope is Government control over the healthcare system, and those who have a low approval believe this.
It's all they've heard since Hillary tried to start Hillarycare back when she was First Lady. That was over 20 years ago.

@GrouchoTex

Truth to tell,the 'murikan publik have been told that ONLY government can solve their problems ever since King Franklin and his commie wife infested the White House.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:06:43 AM

I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.

@goodwithagun

I am in complete agreement,but it is never going to happen because there are too many beaks being dipped into that pool for the professional political class to ever allow it to be drained.

Just look at how many lawyers would be out of work,and standing on street corners with "Will Lie For Cash" signs hanging around their necks.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:07:47 AM
So we can at least agree that what they have is a lot better than what we have right now?

@Dexter

You have a toe dipped in that water,don't you?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: musiclady on November 21, 2018, 10:09:53 AM
Perhaps they simply don’t know what they’re missing.

Most likely the case.

If you've never experienced what quality health care is like, waiting months for routine procedures that we get in days, and you didn't grow up knowing that your Doctors can treat you like an individual, and not part of a massive machine, you don't know that you're in a vastly inferior system.

But thanks to Obama, the Democrats, the Republicans and Trump, we will be losing the best health care in the world for the vastly inferior European model.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: musiclady on November 21, 2018, 10:11:14 AM
Because they're rich, and healthcare here is the best in the world if you're rich. If you're not rich then you're better off in Europe.

That statement is 100% false.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:12:35 AM
That's right, and equally, the other way around... I think you and I are probably old enough to remember what it was like here before, as compared to now... And folks here don't know anywhere near how well they've got it, EVEN YET.

 

@roamer_1

I had an adverse reaction to the polio shot when it first came out,and was bedridden for months due to fever and not being able to walk. My father was a carpenter that was paid by the hour and had zero insurance. I remember the doctor and his black bag coming to my house and bedside to check on me and provide me with medical care,and oddly enough,my father was able to pay his bills from his weekly paycheck.

Compare that to the medical circuses of today.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: musiclady on November 21, 2018, 10:13:56 AM
Because care wise...it's not.  My son has been treated twice in the German healthcare system due to location of where his injury ocurred.

Their system is not better than what we have right now.

Not even close.

A relative in Canada had a torn ACL and a surgery that she would have had in a matter of weeks here took a number of months.

The same is true for more serious issues.

The US health care system, as it was when it was free (not financially, but medically) was vastly superior to Europe's or Canada's.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 21, 2018, 10:15:37 AM
@GrouchoTex

Truth to tell,the 'murikan publik have been told that ONLY government can solve their problems ever since King Franklin and his commie wife infested the White House.


@sneakypete

Truedat
You could go back to Woodrow Wilson, and even Teddy Roosevelt to find government overreach.
The case can be made that Lincoln did it, suspending Habeas Corpus, but that always starts a range war, so I won't bring that up.

 :cool:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 21, 2018, 10:26:32 AM
@roamer_1

I had an adverse reaction to the polio shot when it first came out,and was bedridden for months due to fever and not being able to walk. My father was a carpenter that was paid by the hour and had zero insurance. I remember the doctor and his black bag coming to my house and bedside to check on me and provide me with medical care,and oddly enough,my father was able to pay his bills from his weekly paycheck.

Compare that to the medical circuses of today.

@sneakypete
Ol doc Kiley stitched me up more than once after dark on his kitchen table... Then he'd reach in a drawer and pull out a handful of pain reliever samples and hand them to me... I hardly ever paid him. He always had a lawn mower than needed fixing, or a fence, or a gutter... And he wasn't being nice, either - I am a handy guy and he appreciated my work. Just a couple of mutually beneficial transactions going on here...

But by that time, he was a rare duck. I didn't need insurance until he retired.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 10:43:30 AM
Not even close.

A relative in Canada had a torn ACL and a surgery that she would have had in a matter of weeks here took a number of months.

The same is true for more serious issues.

The US health care system, as it was when it was free (not financially, but medically) was vastly superior to Europe's or Canada's.

The closest we have in this country to what Dexter is wanting is the VA system and military healthcare.  And it's not better than what is out on the economy these days.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 10:46:03 AM
Not even close.

A relative in Canada had a torn ACL and a surgery that she would have had in a matter of weeks here took a number of months.

The same is true for more serious issues.

The US health care system, as it was when it was free (not financially, but medically) was vastly superior to Europe's or Canada's.

Germany's system is tiered based on which coverage level you have.  Bottom level..."take this aspirin and wait over there we might get to you in a couple hours."

Top level "right this way we have a private room waiting for you and our best doctors who were all trained in the U.S.  will be with you monetarily."
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 11:25:08 AM
The closest we have in this country to what Dexter is wanting is the VA system and military healthcare.  And it's not better than what is out on the economy these days.

@txradioguy

I had emergency heart surgery a couple of months ago (no big deal,just a stent),and am STILL waiting to see if the VA is going to pay my hospital and doctors bills. The nearest VA hospital to me is 75 miles away,so I went to a local hospital.

Meanwhile,the medical bills are still rolling in,my credit rating is taking a hit again,and I still don't have a clue about if they are going to pay or not,DESPITE me being a 100 percent service-connected disabled veteran.

I ended up having to pay my own bills for the last 3 emergency operations I had because the VA ruled that I should have gone to a VA hospital for treatment or applied and gotten approval in advance.

How many of YOU  want "free medical care" like this?

BTW,if you want to amuse yourself,try to buy medical insurance after telling them you are an Agent Orange veteran.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 21, 2018, 12:11:23 PM
Because care wise...it's not.  My son has been treated twice in the German healthcare system due to location of where his injury ocurred.

Their system is not better than what we have right now.

I have a friend who grew up in Germany. In her late teens, she tore a ligament in her knee playing volleyball. Instead of repairing the torn ligament, the German doctors told her that she would be able to walk but could never play volleyball again.

Years later, she moved to the US. She was surprised to learn from Doctor's here that repairing ligaments is routine. She couldn't understand since she had been led to believe in Germany that the US. let people die outside in the streets at hospitals.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 21, 2018, 12:14:53 PM
Because they're rich, and healthcare here is the best in the world if you're rich. If you're not rich then you're better off in Europe.

Rich Europeans are better off because they can afford to fly to the US for their health care.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 21, 2018, 12:22:20 PM


BTW,if you want to amuse yourself,try to buy medical insurance after telling them you are an Agent Orange veteran.

You can enroll every Nov to Dec 15th-no medical questions. They have to take you. No one is denied. No prexisting conditions.

If you are 65 + same with Medicare. Open enrollment every Oct-December.

@sneakypete
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 21, 2018, 12:37:32 PM
.

I’m against preexisting condition mandates and single payer. The only thing that will fix this problem is for all government entities, from the feds to the villages, to end health insurance requirements including HIPPA. That’s it. All costs will plummet making it possible for the average working American to pay OOP.

I have been a health insurance broker for 30+ years with over 10 of the top carriers.

The no Pre -Ex clause, Cobra(Under Reagan) and Hipaa portability is the best thing to happen to the American consumer.

Before these took affect I have seen literally hundreds of people  lose their job at age 55 due to downturns or offshoring, no one will hire them due to their age and they have serious health conditions and lose everything  to pay for their health care  and declare bankruptcy  because they could not purchase health insurance.

You and your husband are gov't employees with cushy health care and pensions that allow you to retire in your early to mid 50's  and you don't  have a clue what the average American has to pay for their premiums.


My wife and I pay $1600 month for a $4000 deductible each and we are age 56 and 57.

What is costing health insurance cost to rise is the rampant opbesity/smoking of the American people and the American people demanding insurance co's pay for the latest million dollar procedure/drugs and treating people on their death bed at age 95 with expensive treatment when they should be just allowed to die.

Your let them eat cake attitude is why Republicans lost this November. Health care cost is killing the American family. and it was the #1 issue this past November.

@goodwithagun
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 12:43:33 PM
You can enroll every Nov to Dec 15th-no medical questions. They have to take you. No one is denied. No prexisting conditions.

If you are 65 + same with Medicare. Open enrollment every Oct-December.

@sneakypete

@mirraflake

This also applies to a 100 percent service-connected veteran already on Medicare? I was under the impression my only option was to pay Medicare more for a better grade of Medicare?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 12:48:54 PM
@txradioguy

I had emergency heart surgery a couple of months ago (no big deal,just a stent),and am STILL waiting to see if the VA is going to pay my hospital and doctors bills. The nearest VA hospital to me is 75 miles away,so I went to a local hospital.

Meanwhile,the medical bills are still rolling in,my credit rating is taking a hit again,and I still don't have a clue about if they are going to pay or not,DESPITE me being a 100 percent service-connected disabled veteran.

I ended up having to pay my own bills for the last 3 emergency operations I had because the VA ruled that I should have gone to a VA hospital for treatment or applied and gotten approval in advance.

How many of YOU  want "free medical care" like this?

BTW,if you want to amuse yourself,try to buy medical insurance after telling them you are an Agent Orange veteran.

I know it's an understatement...but that is just not right on so many levels Pete.  I'm sorry they are doing that to you.

I had to help my father-in-law recently after he had a stroke and was treated via the VA.  It's given me more insight into the VA as I approach retirement than I wanted to see.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 21, 2018, 12:55:31 PM
"What is costing health insurance cost to rise is the rampant opbesity/smoking of the American people and the American people demanding insurance co's pay for the latest million dollar procedure/drugs and treating people on their death bed at age 95 with expensive treatment when they should be just allowed to die."

@mirraflake

Great, now you come along and tell us how to live and when to die.
No thanks.

The cost have skyrocketed because real competition has been squelched by the government, who has had its hand in this far too long, and continues to try and takeover more all the time.
The government pays 70 cents on the dollar for those on their programs, and the difference is made up by us.
Hell, they've been shooting for 60 cents on the dollar.


Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 21, 2018, 12:55:54 PM
@mirraflake

This also applies to a 100 percent service-connected veteran already on Medicare? I was under the impression my only option was to pay Medicare more for a better grade of Medicare?

Yes, you would have to pay more. If you have Part B Medicare as well you can enroll onto a private Medicare Supp with numerous carriers.  Not sure of your age  but most would be $120-150 month + a Part D drug card which is another 10-100.00 depending on what plan.

There are also Medicare select/advantage plans you can enroll into that cost you zero or very little but these plans usually have some sort of deductible and coinsurance and you have to use their network. How these plans wotk that cost you zero is the gov't  instead of paying claims as they role in,  they give the carrier so much each month  for each member..say $600. I f you use $300 the carrier  makes 300 off of you . If you use $700 the insurance carrier lose a 100 that month. The law of averages is more people are healthy than unheahlthy so they make money.

I would call a health broker in your area and let them guide you. Last day to sign up is coming up though.

@sneakypete

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 12:56:03 PM
I know it's an understatement...but that is just not right on so many levels Pete.  I'm sorry they are doing that to you.

I had to help my father-in-law recently after he had a stroke and was treated via the VA.  It's given me more insight into the VA as I approach retirement than I wanted to see.

@txradioguy

It's not just me,it's practically everybody,as you noticed with your FIL.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 01:00:55 PM
@txradioguy

It's not just me,it's practically everybody,as you noticed with your FIL.

Yeah I saw that.  He's 67 now and because his disability isn't service related and he didn't retire...he doesn't get the full health benefits that he should now.  We were literally one step ahead of the VA trying to get his Medicaid Part B in place to cover his 10 days in the UofL stroke center.

Now we're waiting for his Part A to kick in.  He had to pay a penalty and wait a year to get Part A because he failed to enroll when he turned 65.  The person he'd been working with at the VA told him he was automatically enrolled when he wasn't.  We didn't find that out until he was already at the hospital.

We ducked a huge financial bullet because when he was having his stroke I took him straight to the VA Hospital ER in Louisville instead of the local hospital.  Because we went there first and they transported him to UofL the VA picked up the initial tab.

But even in his after care it's been a sh*t fight with them to get the authorizations for physical and speech therapy.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 21, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
Yeah I saw that.  He's 67 now and because his disability isn't service related and he didn't retire...he doesn't get the full health benefits that he should now.  We were literally one step ahead of the VA trying to get his Medicaid Part B in place to cover his 10 days in the UofL stroke center.

Now we're waiting for his Part A to kick in.  He had to pay a penalty and wait a year to get Part A because he failed to enroll when he turned 65.  The person he'd been working with at the VA told him he was automatically enrolled when he wasn't.  We didn't find that out until he was already at the hospital.

We ducked a huge financial bullet because when he was having his stroke I took him straight to the VA Hospital ER in Louisville instead of the local hospital.  Because we went there first and they transported him to UofL the VA picked up the initial tab.

But even in his after care it's been a sh*t fight with them to get the authorizations for physical and speech therapy.

@txradioguy
@sneakypete

Astounding to me that some think we should institute this kind of thing nationwide, to the whole populace.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 21, 2018, 01:11:16 PM
"What is costing health insurance cost to rise is the rampant opbesity/smoking of the American people and the American people demanding insurance co's pay for the latest million dollar procedure/drugs and treating people on their death bed at age 95 with expensive treatment when they should be just allowed to die."

@mirraflake

Great, now you come along and tell us how to live and when to die.
No thanks.

The cost have skyrocketed because real competition has been squelched by the government, who has had its hand in this far too long, and continues to try and takeover more all the time.
The government pays 70 cents on the dollar for those on their programs, and the difference is made up by us.
Hell, they've been shooting for 60 cents on the dollar.

We have free market in healthcare.  There is competition.  Look at the drug ads on TV competing for the dollar.

The system is broken.    Young healthy people are not enrolling onto health insurance plans only the sick and older folks. Yes fatties are killing health care cost. Rampant HBP, diabetes, numerous cancers, heart disease, sleep apnea, joint problems I could go on and on.

Vast majority of health care cost goes towards obesity related conditions.

Let's not get started on health care wages.  So over inflated it's beyond stupid. Male nurses in my  area are pulling in 120k or more per year, 3 days of work, 4 days off.

As I said the system is broken. 

As for allowing people to die I'm not talkin about  70 year old that needs a stent but in my case  my 94 year old aunt with numerous health conditions that only lived due to machines should have been allowed to die instead of prolonging the treatments for the last 2 years of her life which had zero hope. My 95 year old uncle finally put  a stop to the nonsense and told them no more.



@GrouchoTex
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 01:18:39 PM
@txradioguy
@sneakypete

Astounding to me that some think we should institute this kind of thing nationwide, to the whole populace.

But...but...it's fair!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 21, 2018, 01:23:56 PM
I like lil horseface.  She's got spunk. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 01:30:09 PM
Yeah I saw that.  He's 67 now and because his disability isn't service related and he didn't retire...he doesn't get the full health benefits that he should now.  We were literally one step ahead of the VA trying to get his Medicaid Part B in place to cover his 10 days in the UofL stroke center.

Now we're waiting for his Part A to kick in.  He had to pay a penalty and wait a year to get Part A because he failed to enroll when he turned 65.  The person he'd been working with at the VA told him he was automatically enrolled when he wasn't.  We didn't find that out until he was already at the hospital.

We ducked a huge financial bullet because when he was having his stroke I took him straight to the VA Hospital ER in Louisville instead of the local hospital.  Because we went there first and they transported him to UofL the VA picked up the initial tab.

But even in his after care it's been a sh*t fight with them to get the authorizations for physical and speech therapy.

@txradioguy

It can be a real nightmare when you consider the confusion of many elderly vets,and the misinformation sometimes given to them by VA clerks that don't really know what they are talking about,

If you continue to have problems,try contacting the Disabled American Vets rep at your local VA hospital. Their people DO know the regulations,and usually have good connections at the VA hospital and know who to see there to cut red tape or correct mistakes quickly.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 21, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
@txradioguy

It can be a real nightmare when you consider the confusion of many elderly vets,and the misinformation sometimes given to them by VA clerks that don't really know what they are talking about,

If you continue to have problems,try contacting the Disabled American Vets rep at your local VA hospital. Their people DO know the regulations,and usually have good connections at the VA hospital and know who to see there to cut red tape or correct mistakes quickly.

Thanks Pete...I'll have to remember that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 01:42:08 PM
@txradioguy
@sneakypete

Astounding to me that some think we should institute this kind of thing nationwide, to the whole populace.

@GrouchoTex

You ain't the only one. I avoid treatment at the VA hospitals now even if it means I have to do to a regular hospital and pay out of pocket. Last time I went to a VA hospital to have them cut out a "undefined growth" (I  am an Agent Orange vet,and very few of my medical problems are ever defined by the VA),they cut it out,and then forgot to reattach the blood vein when they sewed me up. The result was a loss of circulation that caused my leg to turn black and purple,with them doing nothing more than telling me to take more fluid pills to try to make the swelling go down,and that if nothing else works they will be happy to amputate my leg and give me one of the fancy new high-tech ones.

I basically told them to go piss up a rope because I wanted a second opinion,and went to a local vascular surgeon who told me that IF I had came to him when the problem started it would have been no problem at all,but at that point we had to get rid of the infection before he could operate. It took about 3 weeks for it to heal,and then he did a standard vein replacement procedure right there in his office under a local anesthetic,and 45 minutes later I was out the door and on my way home. 15 years later I am still having trouble with the leg and infections,but I still have it and am still walking around. Even though my leg and foot are still so big I have to wear a bigger shoe on my left foot than my right foot because of the typical swelling.

BTW,I had to pay for the vein replacement surgery and treatments out of pocket,too. No big deal because after Medicare it only ran to 400-500 bucks total.

I was told later that the VA didn't suggest this surgery to me because they didn't offer it,and their doctors are not allowed to suggest surgeries they don't offer.  Because of this they were prepared to amputate my leg and offer me a 20k + prosthetic replacement,+ physical thearapy,as opposed to a couple of hundreds bucks to save my leg.

And people wonder why the government always needs more money.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 21, 2018, 02:04:04 PM
@mirraflake is spot on.  I have work in the healthcare industry as a CNA and then as an RN or 30 years.   Everything he has posted is true. I’ve have even told other nurses that our wages are unsustainable. And I have seen plenty of elderly people being artificially kept alive and brought back into the hospital  to be treated for the same thing over and over again without any positive outcomes

I have also seen the  people come in through the emergency room over and over and admitted in to the hospital  over and over  because of poor lifestyle choices that they keep making

These problems will get worse not only here but throughout Europe and other parts of the world as the population’s age more and more and there’s fewer young people able or even willing to pay for all this


Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 02:05:16 PM


I would call a health broker in your area and let them guide you. Last day to sign up is coming up though.

@sneakypete

@mirraflake

Thanks,I didn't even know such critters existed.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 21, 2018, 02:19:25 PM
@mirraflake is spot on.  I have work in the healthcare industry as a CNA and then as an RN or 30 years.   Everything he has posted is true. I’ve have even told other nurses that our wages unsustainable. And I have seen plenty of elderly people being artificially kept alive and brought back into the hospital  to be treated for the same thing over and over again without any positive outcomes

Thank You!!!!!.  I know nursing is rough and you have to put up with a lot I did not mean it was  an easy job.


I have been reading upon health care trends.  You watch @LMAO   the next medical step in the developed world will be  sending patients to China or India   for non emgergency treatment.

Hip transplant in US 27-30k  in India at a world class hospital it's $3500 or less. with the same exact results

It is already taking place  in the US-sending patients to other countries.

South Korea is becoming the worlds leader in plastic surgery at a quarter of the cost in the US.



Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: DCPatriot on November 21, 2018, 02:56:39 PM
@GrouchoTex

You ain't the only one. I avoid treatment at the VA hospitals now even if it means I have to do to a regular hospital and pay out of pocket. Last time I went to a VA hospital to have them cut out a "undefined growth" (I  am an Agent Orange vet,and very few of my medical problems are ever defined by the VA),they cut it out,and then forgot to reattach the blood vein when they sewed me up. The result was a loss of circulation that caused my leg to turn black and purple,with them doing nothing more than telling me to take more fluid pills to try to make the swelling go down,and that if nothing else works they will be happy to amputate my leg and give me one of the fancy new high-tech ones.

I basically told them to go piss up a rope because I wanted a second opinion,and went to a local vascular surgeon who told me that IF I had came to him when the problem started it would have been no problem at all,but at that point we had to get rid of the infection before he could operate. It took about 3 weeks for it to heal,and then he did a standard vein replacement procedure right there in his office under a local anesthetic,and 45 minutes later I was out the door and on my way home. 15 years later I am still having trouble with the leg and infections,but I still have it and am still walking around. Even though my leg and foot are still so big I have to wear a bigger shoe on my left foot than my right foot because of the typical swelling.

BTW,I had to pay for the vein replacement surgery and treatments out of pocket,too. No big deal because after Medicare it only ran to 400-500 bucks total.

I was told later that the VA didn't suggest this surgery to me because they didn't offer it,and their doctors are not allowed to suggest surgeries they don't offer.  Because of this they were prepared to amputate my leg and offer me a 20k + prosthetic replacement,+ physical thearapy,as opposed to a couple of hundreds bucks to save my leg.

And people wonder why the government always needs more money.

@sneakypete

Wow!   My eyes and mouth are wide opened after reading that post, my friend.

Thank you for your service!   :patriot:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 21, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
@GrouchoTex

You ain't the only one. I avoid treatment at the VA hospitals now even if it means I have to do to a regular hospital and pay out of pocket. Last time I went to a VA hospital to have them cut out a "undefined growth" (I  am an Agent Orange vet,and very few of my medical problems are ever defined by the VA),they cut it out,and then forgot to reattach the blood vein when they sewed me up. The result was a loss of circulation that caused my leg to turn black and purple,with them doing nothing more than telling me to take more fluid pills to try to make the swelling go down,and that if nothing else works they will be happy to amputate my leg and give me one of the fancy new high-tech ones.

I basically told them to go piss up a rope because I wanted a second opinion,and went to a local vascular surgeon who told me that IF I had came to him when the problem started it would have been no problem at all,but at that point we had to get rid of the infection before he could operate. It took about 3 weeks for it to heal,and then he did a standard vein replacement procedure right there in his office under a local anesthetic,and 45 minutes later I was out the door and on my way home. 15 years later I am still having trouble with the leg and infections,but I still have it and am still walking around. Even though my leg and foot are still so big I have to wear a bigger shoe on my left foot than my right foot because of the typical swelling.

BTW,I had to pay for the vein replacement surgery and treatments out of pocket,too. No big deal because after Medicare it only ran to 400-500 bucks total.

I was told later that the VA didn't suggest this surgery to me because they didn't offer it,and their doctors are not allowed to suggest surgeries they don't offer.  Because of this they were prepared to amputate my leg and offer me a 20k + prosthetic replacement,+ physical thearapy,as opposed to a couple of hundreds bucks to save my leg.

And people wonder why the government always needs more money.


Thank you for your service Pete.

It's not just the VA.

Whole Country needs to get rid of State by State Govt mandated medication menus/standards of care.

State boards decide which drugs/treatments Docs are allowed to prescribe/perform, even when the Doc knows something else could/would work a whole lot better.

They're cited as a Courtroom defense after the fact.

(Of course that wouldn't cover gross negligence like what the VA did to you.)

And as you'd expect most of those menus are clogged up with obscenely expensive, patent protected drugs.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 21, 2018, 06:31:27 PM
We have free market in healthcare.  There is competition.  Look at the drug ads on TV competing for the dollar.

The system is broken.    Young healthy people are not enrolling onto health insurance plans only the sick and older folks. Yes fatties are killing health care cost. Rampant HBP, diabetes, numerous cancers, heart disease, sleep apnea, joint problems I could go on and on.

Vast majority of health care cost goes towards obesity related conditions.

Let's not get started on health care wages.  So over inflated it's beyond stupid. Male nurses in my  area are pulling in 120k or more per year, 3 days of work, 4 days off.

As I said the system is broken. 

As for allowing people to die I'm not talkin about  70 year old that needs a stent but in my case  my 94 year old aunt with numerous health conditions that only lived due to machines should have been allowed to die instead of prolonging the treatments for the last 2 years of her life which had zero hope. My 95 year old uncle finally put  a stop to the nonsense and told them no more.



@GrouchoTex

And thus comes the chooser.
In the end, insurance is what is breaking the system. It is risk abatement, and that in itself breaks everything.
There has to be risk. Without risk, there is no profit. Risk abatement is profit abatement.
And risk abatement always has choosers.
People that begin by suggesting less risk-inherent paths.
And end up with the power to drag you by your nose down less risk-inherent paths.
Till THEY are telling YOU what you can and cannot do.

eff friggin choosers.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Fishrrman on November 21, 2018, 08:37:58 PM
@sneakypete -

You're over 65, right?
If so, for gosh sakes, quit relying on the VA system and get yourself into Medicare (I think you have until Dec. 7).
Sign up for part A and part B (about $110 per month).
Get yourself into a Medicare advantage plan.
I'd suggest Aetna if they have it where you are.
If they have Aetna, I'd recommend the "Elite PPO" plan (H5521-157).
$0 premium per month and decent plan benefits.
You can use plan doctors or non-plan doctors (that's why they call it PPO).
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 09:47:37 PM
@sneakypete -

You're over 65, right?
If so, for gosh sakes, quit relying on the VA system and get yourself into Medicare (I think you have until Dec. 7).
Sign up for part A and part B (about $110 per month).
Get yourself into a Medicare advantage plan.
I'd suggest Aetna if they have it where you are.
If they have Aetna, I'd recommend the "Elite PPO" plan (H5521-157).
$0 premium per month and decent plan benefits.
You can use plan doctors or non-plan doctors (that's why they call it PPO).

@Fishrrman

Thank you. That is exactly what I will do.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 21, 2018, 09:48:40 PM
@Fishrrman

Thank you. That is exactly what I will do.

You use social programs?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 21, 2018, 10:11:26 PM
You use social programs?

 :2popcorn:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 21, 2018, 10:15:51 PM
You use social programs?

@Dexter

Huh?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 21, 2018, 10:27:45 PM
@Dexter

Huh?

Is Medicare not social medicine?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 21, 2018, 10:29:00 PM
How about social security? Any of you use that?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 21, 2018, 10:32:11 PM
How about social security? Any of you use that?

What are you getting at?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: truth_seeker on November 21, 2018, 11:25:11 PM
@sneakypete -

You're over 65, right?
If so, for gosh sakes, quit relying on the VA system and get yourself into Medicare (I think you have until Dec. 7).
Sign up for part A and part B (about $110 per month).
Get yourself into a Medicare advantage plan.
I'd suggest Aetna if they have it where you are.
If they have Aetna, I'd recommend the "Elite PPO" plan (H5521-157).
$0 premium per month and decent plan benefits.
You can use plan doctors or non-plan doctors (that's why they call it PPO).

Blue Shield 65 Plus HMO has served my mother, my mother in law, and prompted me to take it when I hit 65, then my wife.



Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 22, 2018, 12:01:52 AM
You use social programs?


Now see here.

When a person Was working the Govt took money Out of their check with the promise they'd give it back later on when the person couldn't work anymore.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 12:18:42 AM

Now see here.

When a person Was working the Govt took money Out of their check with the promise they'd give it back later on when the person couldn't work anymore.

More to the point, what else is there? If the government weren't taxing the crap out of wealth, and raping inheritance, if government were not curtailing charity in the private sector in order to impose its own, perhaps there would be enough income and wealth in families to take care of their own, and help along the way by robust charities in a position to help... As has been the case across centuries without end.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 22, 2018, 12:28:38 AM
How about social security? Any of you use that?

Do we have a choice?  It is a cruel ponzi scheme that was forced upon us by Democrats.  It is the single biggest contributor to cyclical poverty today.  It insures that poorer Americans will have zero inheritance to leave to their children and grandchildren.

If the average American were allowed to invest their social security taxes into actual investments, they would retire as millionaires.  And that prospect terrifies Democrat politicians whose livelihoods depend on poor voters.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 22, 2018, 01:38:05 AM
More to the point, what else is there? If the government weren't taxing the crap out of wealth, and raping inheritance, if government were not curtailing charity in the private sector in order to impose its own, perhaps there would be enough income and wealth in families to take care of their own, and help along the way by robust charities in a position to help... As has been the case across centuries without end.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 03:11:42 AM
If anyone wants to actually know what happened to our health care system, go find the 'The Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973' passed under Nixon.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 22, 2018, 07:40:33 AM
Is Medicare not social medicine?

@Dexter

Not after you pay into it for 50 years it isn't.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 07:49:44 AM
@Dexter

Not after you pay into it for 50 years it isn't.

It is literally a social program still and whether or not y’all want to admit it those programs help a lot of people. It sounds like at least one person in this thread would be completely screwed without some of those programs.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 07:51:35 AM
Is Medicare not social medicine?

Yes. And even conservatives have bought that because they paid into it, it’s theirs

And it’s currently trimming back what it’s willing to pay, is facing insolvency, and has trillions in unfunded liabilities. Anyone who is on Medicare should also have supplemental insurance

The financial  problems facing Medicare, like SS, mostly stem from the fact that there’s more people living longer than when both were enacted. That, and there  isn't enough younger people to pay. Also, and keep an eye out for this in the future, many states, especially CA, NY, and Ill., are facing insurmountable public employee pension crisis. 

You speak often of how Europe is great and does not have the same issues facing them but rest assured, they do. Like this country, the average person on Medicare likes it but most have no idea the problems facing it. They just go to the Doctor or hospital and Medicare pays for part of it. Most never heard of the word “insolvency”or “unfunded liabilities”

I don’t see either SS or Medicare disappearing entirely, although Medicare is in more trouble that SS. But they’ll become more restricted on who and what they’ll pay.

Another thing to watch going forward is all these new Medicaid sign ups under Obamacare in the next decade or so

Politicians in Europe, like those here, know the issues facing their overly generous social programs. But taking away or restricting who receives them is hard once people have come to expect them


Also, add the rise of automation in this mix
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:02:26 AM
Yes.

And it’s currently trimming back what it’s willing to pay, is facing insolvency, and has trillions in unfunded liabilities. Anyone who is on Medicare should also have supplemental insurance

The financial  problems facing Medicare, like SS, mostly stem from the fact that there’s more people living longer than when both were enacted. That, and there  isn't enough younger people to pay. Also, and keep an eye out for this in the future, many states, especially CA, NY, and Ill., are facing insurmountable public employee pension crisis. 

You speak often of how Europe is great and does not have the same issues facing them but rest assured, they do. Like this country, the average person on Medicare likes it but most have no idea the problems facing it. They just go to the Doctor or hospital and Medicare pays for part of it. Most never heard of the word “insolvency”or “unfunded liabilities”

I don’t see either SS or Medicare disappearing entirely, although Medicare is in more trouble that SS. But they’ll become more restricted on who and what they’ll pay.

Another thing to watch going forward is all these new Medicaid sign ups under Obamacare in the next decade or so

Politicians in Europe, like those here, know the issues facing their overly generous social programs. But taking away or restricting who receives them is hard once people have come to expect them


Also, add the rise of automation in this mix

And here I thought SS struggles were related to the government stealing from our funds. Automation ultimately will make this stuff easier.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 08:06:22 AM
And here I thought SS struggles were related to the government stealing from our funds. Automation ultimately will make this stuff easier.

Except SS is not “our funds” The money you paid into SS has been spent on current retirees
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:08:27 AM
Except SS is not “our funds” The money you paid into SS has been spent on current retirees

More of it has been grabbed and wasted by the government. The program would work fine if it was left unmolested.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:13:45 AM
What are you getting at?

@roamer_1

He's trying to infer that some here are hypocrites for raking him over the coals about single payer government run healthcare while talking about the various options for people over a certain age with Medicare and Medicaid and those that get a Social Security check.

It's a lame "gotcha" at best.

Dex fails to realize that it's federal law that you sign up for Medicare at age 65 and if you don't you incur fines from the government for IIRC every year you don't sign.

It's not hypocrisy Dex...sorry guy...its the Federal law that we have to sign up and use it.

Social Security is taken from our paychecks every month with the Government assurance that we'll have that money when we retire at 65...the same year Federal law says we have to sign up for Medicare.

Bottom line if the Government is taking money from my paycheck and my wallet every month for the 50-60 years I work...you're damn right I want a return on the forced investment in these government run government mandated programs.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 08:14:57 AM
More of it has been grabbed and wasted by the government. The program would work fine if it was left unmolested.

Not entirely true. SS is a tax. That means the government can do with it what it wants. Once tax dollars end up in DC, they get spent. Now, you can argue what’s wasteful or unwasteful spending. But it appears you’ve bought into the “I’ve paid into it so it’s mine” myth. Do you know what the term “unfunded liabilities” means?

When SS was enacted, no one was really supposed to live long enough to collect it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:15:12 AM
It is literally a social program still and whether or not y’all want to admit it those programs help a lot of people. It sounds like at least one person in this thread would be completely screwed without some of those programs.

And that is because the federal government has left us no other alternative.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:16:10 AM
@roamer_1

He's trying to infer that some here are hypocrites for raking him over the coals about single payer government run healthcare while talking about the various options for people over a certain age with Medicare and Medicaid and those that get a Social Security check.

It's a lame "gotcha" at best.

Dex fails to realize that it's federal law that you sign up for Medicare at age 65 and if you don't you incur fines from the government for IIRC every year you don't sign.

It's not hypocrisy Dex...sorry guy...its the Federal law that we have to sign up and use it.

Social Security is taken from our paychecks every month with the Government assurance that we'll have that money when we retire at 65...the same year Federal law says we have to sign up for Medicare.

Bottom line if the Government is taking money from my paycheck and my wallet every month for the 50-60 years I work...you're damn right I want a return on the forced investment in these government run government mandated programs.

Would you say Medicare and social security do more harm than good?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:17:07 AM
Not entirely true. SS is a tax. That means the government can do with it what it wants. Once tax dollars end up in DC, they get spent. Now, you can argue what’s wasteful or unwasteful spending. But it appears you’ve bought into the “I’ve paid into it so it’s mine” myth. Do you know what the term “unfunded liabilities” means?

When SS was enacted, no one was really supposed to live long enough to collect it.

Clinton raided the trust fund in the 90's and used what was in there along with some creative accounting to claim he'd "balanced" the budget.

Republicans and Dems alike have been using the money form the trust fund ever since.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:17:28 AM
Not entirely true. SS is a tax. That means the government can do with it what it wants. Once tax dollars end up in DC, they get spent. Now, you can argue what’s wasteful or unwasteful spending. But it appears you’ve bought into the “I’ve paid into it so it’s mine” myth. Do you know what the term “unfunded liabilities” means?

When SS was enacted, no one was really supposed to live long enough to collect it.

The majority of our national debt is owed to social security.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 08:18:30 AM
Would you say Medicare and social security do more harm than good?

To our fiscal situation, they do more harm than good.   Both programs have the biggest driver of our debt.  You’re confusing good intentions with math and economics.  Both programs are growing faster than our economy and people’s ability to pay
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:19:00 AM
Would you say Medicare and social security do more harm than good?

Yes I would.  99.9% of Americans would be better off if the Government let them use the money that is taxed for these two programs to seek out their own healthcare and retirement plans without Federal interference.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:19:52 AM
To our fiscal situation, they do more harm than good.   Both programs have the biggest driver of our debt.  You’re confusing good intentions with math and economics.  Both programs are growing faster than our economy and people’s ability to pay

Social security creates debt because they are funding wars with it. That wasn’t the deal.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:20:24 AM
The majority of our national debt is owed to social security.

No actually it's whats called the "unfunded liabilities"...the social programs that are kept off the balance sheet.

And the majority of that is welfare.  The welfare system in this country and the fact more and more people want free stuff will be what breaks this country in the long run.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:20:52 AM
Social security creates debt because they are funding wars with it. That wasn’t the deal.

You have a link to anything to back up that wild claim?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:21:15 AM
Yes I would.  99.9% of Americans would be better off if the Government let them use the money that is taxed for these two programs to seek out their own healthcare and retirement plans without Federal interference.

A lot of old Americans that are less intelligent than us would suffer a lot without those programs.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:24:41 AM
You have a link to anything to back up that wild claim?

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 (https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:40:01 AM
https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124 (https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-the-u-s-national-debt-3306124)

And nothing in there that backs up your wild claim that Social Security creates debt because they are funding wars with it

Nothing...nada
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:40:30 AM
A lot of old Americans that are less intelligent than us would suffer a lot without those programs.

No they wouldn't...what a dumb thing to say.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 08:58:19 AM
And nothing in there that backs up your wild claim that Social Security creates debt because they are funding wars with it

Nothing...nada

You don’t think what you saw in that link plays a role in social security issues? When we want another war or a stimulus package funds are taken from social security.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 08:59:05 AM
And nothing in there that backs up your wild claim that Social Security creates debt because they are funding wars with it

Nothing...nada

His claim makes many stretches and assumptions that are not supported in the link he posted

This may be were the claim comes from

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/03/facebook-posts/did-george-w-bush-borrow-social-security-fund-war-/ (https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug/03/facebook-posts/did-george-w-bush-borrow-social-security-fund-war-/)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 09:01:39 AM
No they wouldn't...what a dumb thing to say.

Yes they would. Not everybody is smart or skilled enough to put away enough of a nest egg to make it to the end of life after they can’t work anymore. You’d have a lot more homeless elderly people.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 09:02:30 AM
You don’t think what you saw in that link plays a role in social security issues? When we want another war or a stimulus package funds are taken from social security.

No it doesn't.  Congress Critters raiding the trust fund to pay for pork programs for their own states...to help fund the expansion of government agencies we don't need at the federal level and all kinds of unnecessary "neighborhood" programs is where that money goes.

Oh and the Stimulus package money...that's now a part of the regular yearly budgetary spending thanks to Obama and the Democrats.


You should really quit now trying to act smart about this stuff...you're getting in over your head.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 09:03:10 AM
Yes they would. Not everybody is smart or skilled enough to put away enough of a nest egg to make it to the end of life after they can’t work anymore. You’d have a lot more homeless elderly people.

Spoken like a true emotionally driven factually challenged Liberal.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 09:05:39 AM
Spoken like a true emotionally driven factually challenged Liberal.

Your responses are becoming increasingly childish. I’m bored now.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 09:10:31 AM
No it doesn't.  Congress Critters raiding the trust fund to pay for pork programs for their own states...to help fund the expansion of government agencies we don't need at the federal level and all kinds of unnecessary "neighborhood" programs is where that money goes.

Oh and the Stimulus package money...that's now a part of the regular yearly budgetary spending thanks to Obama and the Democrats.


You should really quit now trying to act smart about this stuff...you're getting in over your head.

The program would pay for itself and then some if the government didn’t take from it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
Spoken like a true emotionally driven factually challenged Liberal.

Actually, there is some truth to his statements. Americans have put themselves in a lot of personal debt. It appears the general public is as fiscally irresponsible as the government. And inflation, which is sure to rise in the coming decades, will put pressure on people’s savings.

All this would be easier to manage if we just died after 65....lol

These are complex issues. No easy black and white solutions
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 22, 2018, 10:37:29 AM
Not entirely true. SS is a tax. That means the government can do with it what it wants. Once tax dollars end up in DC, they get spent. Now, you can argue what’s wasteful or unwasteful spending. But it appears you’ve bought into the “I’ve paid into it so it’s mine” myth. Do you know what the term “unfunded liabilities” means?

When SS was enacted, no one was really supposed to live long enough to collect it.

@LMAO

Not true. My grandfather lived to be 103. He died in the 1940's. Back then people that managed to live long enough to become adults were generally strong and healthy,and barring accident or warfare,they lived long lives.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 10:42:53 AM
@LMAO

Not true. My grandfather lived to be 103. He died in the 1940's. Back then people that managed to live long enough to become adults were generally strong and healthy,and barring accident or warfare,they lived long lives.

http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html (http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 22, 2018, 10:51:31 AM
More of it has been grabbed and wasted by the government. The program would work fine if it was left unmolested.

No, it would not.  Left unmolested, it would already be bankrupt.  It is a ponzi scheme that relies solely on new suckers joining in to fund the checks of those drawing out.

And as already stated, it is the single biggest contributor for ensuring that the cycle of poverty gets repeated generation after generation.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 22, 2018, 11:04:00 AM
The majority of our national debt is owed to social security.

That gives our government a huge incentive not to pay it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 11:19:27 AM
http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html (http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html)

I don't think that's right, or true. And I have asked it of very old men who remembered far back into their youth, and knew very old men back then.

I'd bet there are statistical shenanigans in those numbers.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 22, 2018, 11:44:36 AM
@Fishrrman

Thank you. That is exactly what I will do.

I sell for Aetna, Blue Cross United health Care etc.  Find a independent insurance broker in your area and he/she will tell you the best  plan  for your area. 

Cloesly look at the doctor/hospital network in your area. Some carriers don't have good networks in all areas.

@sneakypete
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 22, 2018, 11:51:16 AM
Yes I would.  99.9% of Americans would be better off if the Government let them use the money that is taxed for these two programs to seek out their own healthcare and retirement plans without Federal interference.

Lol Nope.  75% of people would spend their retirement on a new Harley or vacations over the years and never have enough for retirement and you know it.

I think that stats are only 20-25% of Americans have more than $25k in retirement savings at age 65 and most of the 75% have less than 10k.

Then there would be unscrupoulus investment firms going belly up and ripping off savers.

Look what happened before SS, people were allowed to invest their own money and their seniors were near destitute and lived like the Waltons with grampa and granny living down the hall.

@LMAO

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 12:04:05 PM
Lol Nope.  75% of people would spend their retirement on a new Harley or vacations over the years and never have enough for retirement and you know it.

I think that stats are only 20-25% of Americans have more than $25k in retirement savings at age 65 and most of the 75% have less than 10k.

Then there would be unscrupoulus investment firms going belly up and ripping off savers.

Look what happened before SS, people were allowed to invest their own money and their seniors were near destitute and lived like the Waltons with grampa and granny living down the hall.

@LMAO

The quote you responded to wasn’t from me. But the poor savings rates by Americans is another issue to throw in the mix.

What a mess

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 12:06:04 PM
Look what happened before SS, people were allowed to invest their own money and their seniors were near destitute and lived like the Waltons with grampa and granny living down the hall.


You make that sound like it's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 22, 2018, 12:20:08 PM
Lol Nope.  75% of people would spend their retirement on a new Harley or vacations over the years and never have enough for retirement and you know it.

I think that stats are only 20-25% of Americans have more than $25k in retirement savings at age 65 and most of the 75% have less than 10k.

Then there would be unscrupoulus investment firms going belly up and ripping off savers.

@mirraflake

Your concern is valid.  Here is what I would like to see.  Currently, Government dictates that roughly 12.5% of everyone's income go into the Social Security ponzi scheme.  How about if Government instead kept the 12.5% mandate, but instead allowed workers to direct those funds into one or more government-approved investment accounts.  That way, there would be an actual investment backing the funds.  It is similar to what insurance companies do with the policy payments given to them.  And instead of government wasting their 12.5% by immediately spending it, that money instead would be fed directly into economic growth.

The worker would have a say on where his money is invested.  He would be able to track that investment similar to a 401(k).  And when he dies, he would have an actual inheritance to pass on to his children and grandchildren instead of government keeping it all.

One of the most racist aspects of government is Social Security.  The life expectancy of a black American lags by several years the life expectancy of a white American.  Which means that white Americans get more out of Social Security than black Americans at the same income level.  So when that black retiree dies at the age of 69 after only four years of collecting Social Security, the government hands his family a $255 check and keeps the rest.  And his children and grandchildren get no inheritance.  Yet if he has been allowed to invest that money, his family could have close to $1 million.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: dfwgator on November 22, 2018, 12:22:20 PM

Look what happened before SS, people were allowed to invest their own money and their seniors were near destitute and lived like the Waltons with grampa and granny living down the hall.

@LMAO

Nothing wrong with extended families living together.  Lord knows the McMansions are big enough to accommodate them.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 12:24:38 PM
Nothing wrong with extended families living together.  Lord knows the McMansions are big enough to accommodate them.

Probably the single most destructive element of modern living is the removal of grandparents from the immediate family.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 22, 2018, 12:28:01 PM
You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

It’s not bad or good but it wasn’t uncommon for families to live under one roof. My grandma said the same thing they did when she was growing up.

These fiscal issues interest, and concern, me. I’m not naive enough to believe that without SS, people would save. We see that now. But as SS and Medicare face further pressure, what’s the answer? Dexter’s solution of just letting the government take over everything is not a solution and has its own set of problems. Ezekiel Emmanuel’s idea that after 72 or 75 you should get no healthcare? Tell people that they need to work until 75? Ignoring the issue isn’t a solution, either.


Conservatives sometimes are just as Utopia minded as the left
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 22, 2018, 12:31:58 PM
Would you folks really want your mother in law living with you rest of her life? 

My MIL (RIP)  would drive you batty in one day..trust me.

..and I would not want my parents RIP)  living with us either. My wife and I like our privacy.

My parents  when they were alive would never want to live with us kids and burden us and take away our privacy and told us as much-they liked their privacy as well.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 12:46:19 PM
You don’t need to live in the same house to be close.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 12:49:24 PM

Conservatives sometimes are just as Utopia minded as the left

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 22, 2018, 12:57:25 PM
I don't think that's right, or true. And I have asked it of very old men who remembered far back into their youth, and knew very old men back then.

I'd bet there are statistical shenanigans in those numbers.

Not shenanigans, the numbers simply include deaths in early childhood which have a huge impact on overall life expectancy for population as a whole.  Decreased infant mortality will show a higher life expectancy, even though the average adult isn't going to live a lot longer.

If you looked at life expectancy for 25 year olds, you'd see improvement, but not so substantial.  And that probably would make more sense when discussing something like SS.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 01:00:22 PM
It’s not bad or good but it wasn’t uncommon for families to live under one roof. My grandma said the same thing they did when she was growing up.

These fiscal issues interest, and concern, me. I’m not naive enough to believe that without SS, people would save. We see that now. But as SS and Medicare face further pressure, what’s the answer? Dexter’s solution of just letting the government take over everything is not a solution and has its own set of problems. Ezekiel Emmanuel’s idea that after 72 or 75 you should get no healthcare? Tell people that they need to work until 75? Ignoring the issue isn’t a solution, either.


Conservatives sometimes are just as Utopia minded as the left

Back in the day, it was not uncommon for an aging father to turn the reigns over to one of his sons... The son got instant equity, and the return to the father was a stipend in the form of a payment, and likely a room or a floor of the big house where he, and more importantly and long lasting, his wife, would live out their golden years.

Before ordinances removed the capability, 'mother-in-law houses' were very common on any land holding of some size - A converted garage or boathouse... etc. Built in babysitting, built in help with the garden and the dinner table... The imparting of wisdom to the young, and purpose for the old.

One of the best run families that I know of had a big house... When the oldest lad got married, they built a honeymoon hut for them, right on the property... Three sons eventually moved into and out of that little house, and as their families grew, went on to build larger homes elsewhere on the same property. In the end, when the father finally hung up his guns, he and his wife moved into that little home, and his eldest son took over the big house.

It was a wonder to me, and a brilliant model - one communal garden with all the women participating... One communal set of barns and shops where the menfolk plied the family business and worked the livestock... And one common dinner table - All the women preparing together, and all of them sitting around that grand table in the dining room every night.

A very successful family, rich in wealth, materials, and love.

That is the 'utopia' that we have let go by. And it is a cryin shame.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 22, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
More of it has been grabbed and wasted by the government. The program would work fine if it was left unmolested.

I guess we'll have to start it anew. 

Hey, I have an idea!  Why don't we just throw all the old people that worked their whole lives out of the system, and leave the people who lived on welfare their whole lives stay in?  That would save oodles of cash for young people in it today.  Like you, coincidentally.  I'm sure you can use your growing population of voters to push Congress to pass the required laws.  As more and more people get old and croak, your day will come.

They're already talking about means-testing SS, so people who saved get cut out because they're "rich" and don't need SS like the folks who saved nothing for retirement can get it.   Makes perfect sense to the Progressive mind, I'd think.  BTW, every time it's said "Why does Bill Gates deserve SS?" I answer "Because he paid for it."
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 22, 2018, 02:22:43 PM
I sell for Aetna, Blue Cross United health Care etc.  Find a independent insurance broker in your area and he/she will tell you the best  plan  for your area. 

Cloesly look at the doctor/hospital network in your area. Some carriers don't have good networks in all areas.

@sneakypete

@mirraflake

Thanks,but I try to avoid the closest hospital in my area if possible.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 22, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
It’s not bad or good but it wasn’t uncommon for families to live under one roof. My grandma said the same thing they did when she was growing up.

These fiscal issues interest, and concern, me. I’m not naive enough to believe that without SS, people would save. We see that now.

@LMAO

I personally know people that worked all their lives as commercial fishermen,scrappers,etc,etc,etc who never paid a dime into SS and never saved a dime. I even know people who hit 62 who had never had a steady job in their lives. They lived with mama,and only worked when they needed money.

 One is now 75 and running up and down the road with a rollback everyday to have enough money to live and pay his property taxes. Beat up and stiff from car accidents,work accidents,working in bad weather,etc,etc,etc. Nice guy,hard worker,not stupid,but never paid in a dime other than what the army paid when he was drafted,and never saved a dime. He did set his 4 kids up in businesses or trades,though. All his money went to build his business and to give his kids a start  on a good life. Never drank,gambled,or did any of the other foolish things other than forget to take care of himself.

I also know people that retired and sold successful businesses,and between what they got from their businesses and the investments they made,are living pretty good.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: dfwgator on November 22, 2018, 02:42:28 PM


That is the 'utopia' that we have let go by. And it is a cryin shame.

And Big Government moved in and filled that void.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 02:43:19 PM
And Big Government moved in and filled that void.

That's right.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Smokin Joe on November 22, 2018, 05:41:36 PM
And here I thought SS struggles were related to the government stealing from our funds. Automation ultimately will make this stuff easier.
And everyone dances around the 60,000,000 people who could have been paying in since Roe....
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 22, 2018, 05:53:58 PM
And everyone dances around the 60,000,000 people who could have been paying in since Roe....

An excellent point.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: jmyrlefuller on November 22, 2018, 06:41:31 PM
And here I thought SS struggles were related to the government stealing from our funds.
That is a myth. It was never stolen, only invested in bonds. Left alone, the fund would be even smaller because it wouldn't be earning interest. (Much of that is just a tricky way of diverting general tax revenue into the fund under the category of "debt service.")
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Free Vulcan on November 22, 2018, 07:30:00 PM
Back in the day, it was not uncommon for an aging father to turn the reigns over to one of his sons... The son got instant equity, and the return to the father was a stipend in the form of a payment, and likely a room or a floor of the big house where he, and more importantly and long lasting, his wife, would live out their golden years.

Before ordinances removed the capability, 'mother-in-law houses' were very common on any land holding of some size - A converted garage or boathouse... etc. Built in babysitting, built in help with the garden and the dinner table... The imparting of wisdom to the young, and purpose for the old.

One of the best run families that I know of had a big house... When the oldest lad got married, they built a honeymoon hut for them, right on the property... Three sons eventually moved into and out of that little house, and as their families grew, went on to build larger homes elsewhere on the same property. In the end, when the father finally hung up his guns, he and his wife moved into that little home, and his eldest son took over the big house.

It was a wonder to me, and a brilliant model - one communal garden with all the women participating... One communal set of barns and shops where the menfolk plied the family business and worked the livestock... And one common dinner table - All the women preparing together, and all of them sitting around that grand table in the dining room every night.

A very successful family, rich in wealth, materials, and love.

That is the 'utopia' that we have let go by. And it is a cryin shame.

Yes, yes we have. I am lucky, I saw the tail end of that. What we have sold out to and given up for in this modern society makes me weep.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 22, 2018, 08:00:22 PM
Lol Nope.  75% of people would spend their retirement on a new Harley or vacations over the years and never have enough for retirement and you know it.

Then that's on them quite frankly.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: berdie on November 22, 2018, 08:26:17 PM
Then that's on them quite frankly.


And then it will be on us, quite frankly.

This country doesn't allow indigent people to die on the streets (unless that is their choice i.e. homeless by choice).

So one way or another...we are on the hook.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 22, 2018, 10:34:40 PM
Then that's on them quite frankly.

I'm glad you are now in agreement that the removal of social security and medicare would lead to a lot more elderly homeless people.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 22, 2018, 10:58:19 PM
I favor the ice-floe solution for seniors who refused to save to finance their own retirement.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 22, 2018, 11:02:23 PM
I favor the ice-floe solution for seniors who refused to save to finance their own retirement.

 :cool:

That's funny.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 08:38:37 AM

And then it will be on us, quite frankly.

This country doesn't allow indigent people to die on the streets (unless that is their choice i.e. homeless by choice).

So one way or another...we are on the hook.

Yup

Without serious reforms,  people will still get their Social Security checks.  It’s just the purchasing power of those checks will be greatly diminished.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 23, 2018, 09:32:38 AM

There is no logical reason why you and I should be laced "on the hook" if someone who worked their entire adult life at a good job didn't save a dime for retirement and instead spent that money on material things.

Adult decisions have adult consequences.  If someone doesn't save and thinks they'll use Social Security as their retirement "plan" will live with the consequences of having to live ou their life on a very small very fixed income.

As for people dying in the streets...there were charitable organizations and religious organizations before Social Security and "The Great Society" that took care of and took in people.

We need to quit falling for the trap that the Government is the only answer.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 23, 2018, 09:33:56 AM
I'm glad you are now in agreement that the removal of social security and medicare would lead to a lot more elderly homeless people.

We're in agreement on nothing kid.  Quit trying for a "gotcha" moment.  You suck at it.

That's not what I was trying to say and you know it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 10:09:05 AM
We're in agreement on nothing kid.  Quit trying for a "gotcha" moment.  You suck at it.

That's not what I was trying to say and you know it.

Stuffing words in other peoples mouths is his most enduring quality.  He misses this important lesson:

“You can’t soar with the eagles if you’re hanging with the turkeys.”
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 23, 2018, 10:12:52 AM
Then that's on them quite frankly.

If they did not have money in retirement they would vote for even more gov't then we have now.

@txradioguy
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 23, 2018, 10:35:33 AM
If they did not have money in retirement they would vote for even more gov't then we have now.

@txradioguy

We don't know that for sure.  For all we know without the government teat...some of these people so accustomed to living off of it might actually learn to stand on their own and take advantage of one thing the Federal government is actually charged with giving all Americans.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 23, 2018, 12:42:50 PM
We don't know that for sure.  For all we know without the government teat...some of these people so accustomed to living off of it might actually learn to stand on their own and take advantage of one thing the Federal government is actually charged with giving all Americans.

@txradioguy

What *I* understand to be an absolutely certainty that any sudden change to the current system would be a catastrophe. Geezers like me who are already retired on SS had that planned into our retirements,and many,many would lose their houses and pretty much everything else they had if the money were to suddenly stop. And do NOT try to say that is our fault and tough titty.

If/when there is a change,it MUST be generational,and NOT apply to the current generation that is already vested into the current plan and paying. There has to be an established date at sometime in the future so that future generations of employees  have time to adjust,and the businesses that people work for and run will have time to adjust,also.

BTW,I am NOT claiming that the current SS system should change. Nor am I claiming it should not change. I am just stating what must happen IF it changes.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 23, 2018, 12:46:38 PM
@txradioguy

What *I* understand to be an absolutely certainty that any sudden change to the current system would be a catastrophe. Geezers like me who are already retired on SS had that planned into our retirements,and many,many would lose their houses and pretty much everything else they had if the money were to suddenly stop. And do NOT try to say that is our fault and tough titty.

If/when there is a change,it MUST be generational,and NOT apply to the current generation that is already vested into the current plan and paying. There has to be an established date at sometime in the future so that future generations of employees  have time to adjust,and the businesses that people work for and run will have time to adjust,also.

I agree too it must be generational.  I guess more what I was trying to get at is that if you're in your 30's now and haven't started some kind of retirement plan either through an investor or your company that's on you when you still have to find a side job after your career is over.

Sadly our Congress Critters will never even go for some kind of gradual transition away from Social Security because they need the money generated from the SS tax to spend elsewhere and they need voters dependent on them to justify their existence.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 23, 2018, 01:00:28 PM
Quote
I agree too it must be generational.  I guess more what I was trying to get at is that if you're in your 30's now and haven't started some kind of retirement plan either through an investor or your company that's on you when you still have to find a side job after your career is over.

@txradioguy

IMNSHO,anyone that young that can't see they need to start making their own retirement plans separate from SS is a fool. Given the way our illustrious leaders have been allowing parasites into our nation the last couple of decades,the FACT that they end up being retired in place on OUR SS money without ever having contributed a dime,and the FACT that Congress seems to have no genuine interest in stopping this means the current system MUST collapse.

I don't even pretend to be happy about this,but there is no denying that reality IS reality and cares nothing for what anyone thinks.

We can save the current system and make it solvent again IF our congresscritters grow a pair and suddenly decide to be pro-American and cut off foreign access to the SS " Trust" (how is THAT for bureaucratic irony?) Funds and deporting the parasites back to their home nations.

No,I don't see that happening,either. I have no doubt that Trump will try if he gets a second term,but there are just too many "charities",religions, and law firms sucking on Uncle Sugar's Tits for that to happen,and too many politicians using that money to buy votes with by giving it away to more and more people.  And why should THEY worry? After all,THEIR retirement isn't affected,and they get a MUCH sweeter deal anyhow.

 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:03:02 PM
I agree too it must be generational.  I guess more what I was trying to get at is that if you're in your 30's now and haven't started some kind of retirement plan either through an investor or your company that's on you when you still have to find a side job after your career is over.

Sadly our Congress Critters will never even go for some kind of gradual transition away from Social Security because they need the money generated from the SS tax to spend elsewhere and they need voters dependent on them to justify their existence.

The vast majority of young people today don't want social security and medicare to end. They want those things to still be around when they are seniors. Maybe the seniors of today shouldn't be dictating what world the seniors of tomorrow will be living in by deciding that they'd be better off without those things. It seems kinda ridiculous and wrong.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:04:39 PM
@txradioguy

IMNSHO,anyone that young that can't see they need to start making their own retirement plans separate from SS is a fool. Given the way our illustrious leaders have been allowing parasites into our nation the last couple of decades,the FACT that they end up being retired in place on OUR SS money without ever having contributed a dime,and the FACT that Congress seems to have no genuine interest in stopping this means the current system MUST collapse.

I don't even pretend to be happy about this,but there is no denying that reality IS reality and cares nothing for what anyone thinks.

We can save the current system and make it solvent again IF our congresscritters grow a pair and suddenly decide to be pro-American and cut off foreign access to the SS " Trust" (how is THAT for bureaucratic irony?) Funds and deporting the parasites back to their home nations.

No,I don't see that happening,either. I have no doubt that Trump will try if he gets a second term,but there are just too many "charities",religions, and law firms sucking on Uncle Sugar's Tits for that to happen,and too many politicians using that money to buy votes with by giving it away to more and more people.  And why should THEY worry? After all,THEIR retirement isn't affected,and they get a MUCH sweeter deal anyhow.

There are a lot of fools Pete, and we'd be fools to not account for that. I don't want to see a bunch of homeless old people in 40-50 years.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 01:16:24 PM
The vast majority of young people today don't want social security and medicare to end. They want those things to still be around when they are seniors. Maybe the seniors of today shouldn't be dictating what world the seniors of tomorrow will be living in by deciding that they'd be better off without those things. It seems kinda ridiculous and wrong.

Kewl!  I've found another ice floe enthusiast!  Short of that, old geezers need to STFU and accept what they are given.  It's a young man's word, right?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:23:50 PM
Kewl!  I've found another ice floe enthusiast!  Short of that, old geezers need to STFU and accept what they are given.  It's a young man's word, right?

If young people today want social security and medicare in old age then seniors today really shouldn't be trying to get in the way of that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 01:25:45 PM
Kewl!  I've found another ice floe enthusiast!  Short of that, old geezers need to STFU and accept what they are given.  It's a young man's word, right?

I wouldn't put one of these snowflakes living today incharge of a snake roundup in Ireland.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
I wouldn't put one of these snowflakes living today incharge of a snake roundup in Ireland.

They should be in charge of their own destiny. This issue won't impact seniors today. They should stay out of it.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 23, 2018, 01:40:07 PM

  Short of that, old geezers need to STFU and accept what they are given.  It's a young man's word, right?

@Cyber Liberty

That's always worked for me.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 01:41:57 PM
@Cyber Liberty

That's always worked for me.

Me too, but one day I woke up and I was retired and realized I'm closer to "geezer" status than I realized.   888mouth
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 01:44:14 PM
They should be in charge of their own destiny. This issue won't impact seniors today. They should stay out of it.

They can be in charge:  If you don't have a Retirement Account, start one.  If you already have one, stuff it to the maximum allowed to be tax-deferred.

ETA:  I'm fine with staying away from it, but don't start chipping away at it, now that it's too late for older Americans who don't have the option of saving anymore.  One of the latest gimcrack's I've seen bandied around is
 means-testing SS, because it's unfair that people who saved up a nest egg get to receive as much as somebody who didn't.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:46:13 PM
They can be in charge

I'm glad you think so.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
I'm glad you think so.

I do.  It requires a life-long sacrifice to make it happen, but it's available to every working person.  Most don't avail themselves and that is not my fault.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 01:59:13 PM
I do.  It requires a life-long sacrifice to make it happen, but it's available to every working person.  Most don't avail themselves and that is not my fault.

It's none of your business. Young people want social security and medicare and it has nothing to do with you.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mirraflake on November 23, 2018, 02:11:06 PM
I do.  It requires a life-long sacrifice to make it happen, but it's available to every working person.  Most don't avail themselves and that is not my fault.

Saving is hard work and takes discipline but here is also a huge amount of luck involved.

Many follow the rules and save  but a lifelong illness ( example stroke)  of the breadwinner of the family at middle age and many life savings are wiped out.

Also seen people go through several long term downturns and get laid off through no fault of their own and eat up their life savings.

A friend of the family got laid off at age 58 and the only companies that would hire him was minimum wage. p/t  no benefits due to his age.

@Cyber Liberty

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 02:12:25 PM
It's none of your business. Young people want social security and medicare and it has nothing to do with you.

Sorry, but us old codgers have a whole lot to do with it, because we are here to block your silly notions until you grow old enough in years to obtain wisdom. And by then you will think  quite a bit like we do, and you will be the codger, blocking the exuberant idiocy of the youth in your day.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 02:16:05 PM
Many follow the rules and save  but a lifelong illness ( example stroke)  of the breadwinner of the family at middle age and many life savings are wiped out.

It happened to me. Went from hale and hearty to a POS in screaming pain within 2 months... another 6 months and everything I had built and saved was gone. Insurance bailed on me by technicality, and I had to eat my seed corn.

Prince to pauper in nothing flat.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
It happened to me. Went from hale and hearty to a POS in screaming pain within 2 months... another 6 months and everything I had built and saved was gone. Insurance bailed on me by technicality, and I had to eat my seed corn.

Prince to pauper in nothing flat.

You would have been in big trouble without social safety nets. You are the perfect example of why these things exist. You shouldn't have lost everything because of an illness in a world where it's possible to prevent that from happening. We all deserve better than that. I especially want better than that for my son and hopefully grandchildren someday.

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 02:35:18 PM
You would have been in big trouble without social safety nets. You are the perfect example of why these things exist. You shouldn't have lost everything because of an illness in a world where it's possible to prevent that from happening. We all deserve better than that. I especially want better than that for my son and hopefully grandchildren someday.

That is exactly wrong. I HAD to take advantage of those safety nets simply because those safety nets have entirely subsumed the nets that ought to be there.

If the government were not taxing wealth and inheritance, my family would be infinitely more prepared to help me without a broader scale. And if the government had not removed churches from the ownership of hospitals and health, medical charity would be far more available, and that at far less cost. And if the government had not vastly curtailed non-profit means (as they were competition to their monopoly on 'charity'), non-profit assistance without governmental intervention would be far more robust at far less cost.

I am not against governmental charity. It has always been there. But it should be very last as an option. The focus should be family, then community, then county, then state - and the federal government should have NO role whatsoever, in either welfare or healthcare.

That is the fact of the matter.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 02:40:25 PM
That is exactly wrong. I HAD to take advantage of those safety nets simply because those safety nets have entirely subsumed the nets that ought to be there.

If the government were not taxing wealth and inheritance, my family would be infinitely more prepared to help me without a broader scale. And if the government had not removed churches from the ownership of hospitals and health, medical charity would be far more available, and that at far less cost. And if the government had not vastly curtailed non-profit means (as they were competition to their monopoly on 'charity'), non-profit assistance without governmental intervention would be far more robust at far less cost.

I am not against governmental charity. It has always been there. But it should be very last as an option. The focus should be family, then community, then county, then state - and the federal government should have NO role whatsoever, in either welfare or healthcare.

That is the fact of the matter.

Sounds like liberal logic:  Create a problem that puts a hurt on innocent people so they'll demand socialism to fix the pain caused by liberals.  That describes Obastardcare to a "T," doesn't it?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 02:42:15 PM
It's none of your business. Young people want social security and medicare and it has nothing to do with you.

Utter leftist bullshit.  It becomes my business when youthful idiots start plotting ways to plunder my nest egg.  Don't be obtuse.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: musiclady on November 23, 2018, 02:44:06 PM
That is exactly wrong. I HAD to take advantage of those safety nets simply because those safety nets have entirely subsumed the nets that ought to be there.

If the government were not taxing wealth and inheritance, my family would be infinitely more prepared to help me without a broader scale. And if the government had not removed churches from the ownership of hospitals and health, medical charity would be far more available, and that at far less cost. And if the government had not vastly curtailed non-profit means (as they were competition to their monopoly on 'charity'), non-profit assistance without governmental intervention would be far more robust at far less cost.

I am not against governmental charity. It has always been there. But it should be very last as an option. The focus should be family, then community, then county, then state - and the federal government should have NO role whatsoever, in either welfare or healthcare.

That is the fact of the matter.

This analysis is historically correct and precisely hones in on the source of the problem.

But we see that the liberals on this board (young, I believe) have been convinced that government is the answer and that without it, societies fail.

The truth is that it is because of government programs and interference, we can no longer take care of family and community as we once did.

They are asking for more of the disease, and ignoring the cure.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 02:44:30 PM
Sounds like liberal logic:  Create a problem that puts a hurt on innocent people so they'll demand socialism to fix the pain caused by liberals.  That describes Obastardcare to a "T," doesn't it?

Next comes the accusation of hypocrisy which is so circular that the only way I would not be rendered an hypocrite is to have sucked a bullet... The ONLY other way is to admit the benevolence of the system and bow before our liberal overlords. Watch and see.  *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 02:52:56 PM
This analysis is historically correct precisely hones in on the source of the problem.

But we see that the liberals on this board (young, I believe) have been convinced that government is the answer and that without it, societies fail.

The truth is that it is because of government programs and interference, that we can no longer take care of family and community as we once did.

They are asking for more of the disease, and ignoring the cure.

That is PRECISELY right.
In the end it quintessentially ends where I go so very often:

Liberty has responsibilities
Freedom has consequences.

We have an inherent responsibility to help those who succumb... to give a hand up to those who have fallen. To care for those who have no means to care for themselves in true charity.

Giving over that responsibility to government gives the individual freedom instead.
Freedom from enacting that responsibility oneself.
And freedom has consequences, which we are seeing, as they exponentially unfold.

Nearly every social moray can be viewed through that prism to find the true answer to the problem.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 03:15:32 PM
Next comes the accusation of hypocrisy which is so circular that the only way I would not be rendered an hypocrite is to have sucked a bullet... The ONLY other way is to admit the benevolence of the system and bow before our liberal overlords. Watch and see.  *****rollingeyes*****

You forgot "racist."  *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 23, 2018, 05:06:48 PM
The vast majority of young people today don't want social security and medicare to end. They want those things to still be around when they are seniors. Maybe the seniors of today shouldn't be dictating what world the seniors of tomorrow will be living in by deciding that they'd be better off without those things. It seems kinda ridiculous and wrong.


The "Seniors" should just be dictated to by the no nothing snowflakes like yourself...we should leave our destiny up to a bunch of clueless Socialists like you?

Yeah right.

The seniors have a world of experience you lack and a sense of history that you are absent of. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: jmyrlefuller on November 23, 2018, 05:56:59 PM
It's none of your business. Young people want social security and medicare and it has nothing to do with you.
Yet they're not having nearly enough children to make such programs viable.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 06:00:21 PM
Yet they're not having nearly enough children to make such programs viable.

Wouldn't you know it?  They literally had ONE JOB, and a thoroughly enjoyable one at that, and they effed it up.  And they swim in a sea of STDs. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: sneakypete on November 23, 2018, 06:17:55 PM
It's none of your business. Young people want social security and medicare and it has nothing to do with you.

@Dexter

HorseHillary! Young people think the need for medicare and social security doesn't apply to them because they won't be old for another 1,000 years or so.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 23, 2018, 06:47:32 PM
I wonder if these supposed young people are really stupid enough to think that these programs can go on indefinitely, or if they're just hoping it isn't their generation that gets screwed.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 07:22:21 PM
I wonder if these supposed young people are really stupid enough to think that these programs can go on indefinitely, or if they're just hoping it isn't their generation that gets screwed.

I think they know it's coming, that's why they are thumping the tub for "reform."  They hope to screw over the preceding generations, if we let them.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:24:08 PM
Utter leftist bullshit.  It becomes my business when youthful idiots start plotting ways to plunder my nest egg.  Don't be obtuse.

I don't think young people want to take away your nest egg.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:25:25 PM
Next comes the accusation of hypocrisy which is so circular that the only way I would not be rendered an hypocrite is to have sucked a bullet... The ONLY other way is to admit the benevolence of the system and bow before our liberal overlords. Watch and see.  *****rollingeyes*****

I'm just amazed that so many people here can't see any good in social security and medicare.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:29:07 PM
we can no longer take care of family and community as we once did.

Can churches and other form of community charity really replace what these programs do to help people? We have a population of over 330 million. Would it perhaps be the case that a lot of people wouldn't get the kind of help they currently get from the government?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:29:36 PM
You forgot "racist."  *****rollingeyes*****

Disappointing.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 07:29:53 PM
I don't think young people want to take away your nest egg.

You are a special kind of stupid if you believe that.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:34:41 PM


The "Seniors" should just be dictated to by the no nothing snowflakes like yourself

You're not being dictated. It has been suggested that you shouldn't be pushy in a race you have no horse in, like the future of social security. This issue doesn't concern you. Let young people decide. Ultimately you have no choice but to entrust the future to them. They might not be as "no nothing" as you assume.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:35:30 PM
You are a special kind of stupid if you believe that.

Quality post.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Bigun on November 23, 2018, 07:36:39 PM
You are a special kind of stupid if you believe that.

I told you that he was a  LONG time ago but here he is still trolling.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 07:37:38 PM
You're not being dictated. It has been suggested that you shouldn't be pushy in a race you have no horse in, like the future of social security. This issue doesn't concern you. Let young people decide. Ultimately you have no choice but to entrust the future to them. They might not be as "no nothing" as you assume.

Dex.  You live in your mothers basement don't you?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 23, 2018, 07:42:41 PM
I think they know it's coming, that's why they are thumping the tub for "reform."  They hope to screw over the preceding generations, if we let them.

If I understand your comment correctly, I see it quite differently.

If SS died today, and folks like us who paid in never got anything back, it wouldn't be the younger generations that screwed us.  It would be us, our parents, and our grandparents.  The kids that are going to be expected to pay taxes to pay my SS never had a say in the matter.  Just because I paid in to pay the benefits for my parents and grandparents doesn't mean I should expect my kids and grandkids to pay for my benefits.  It's a Ponzi scheme, that's been evident from day one.  We could have taken the hit (actually, I expect I will, so I've always planned accordingly and just considered it yet another tax) and put an end to it, but we didn't. 

I'll stand up and applaud the generation who steps up and says, "No.  Screw that.  We didn't promise you jack.  Game over."
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:43:38 PM
I told you that he was a  LONG time ago but here he is still trolling.

That's funny coming from people that would call me stupid and launch other ad hominem attacks rather than actually have a cordial discussion. Logic traps, gotchas and all that "trolling" jazz doesn't work if your world view is sound.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
I'll stand up and applaud the generation who steps up and says, "No.  Screw that.  We didn't promise you jack.  Game over."

Young people would never do that to you. I hope when I'm a senior that remains true.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 23, 2018, 07:47:36 PM
Young people already know that there won't be a dime of Social Security money for them when they retire.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 07:50:18 PM
Young people already know that there won't be a dime of Social Security money for them when they retire.

Not according to Dextor.   Socialists always find money,.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 07:50:52 PM
I don't think young people want to take away your nest egg.

I've been told they don't want to take away my guns, either. 

:happyhappy:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 07:51:07 PM
The vast majority of young people today don't want social security and medicare to end.

Evidence?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:52:02 PM
Not according to Dextor.   Socialists always find money,.

If you think I'm a socialist it's only because you don't understand what that actually is. Also I doubt you've ever met anybody on the left with my particular set of views.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 07:52:07 PM
Young people already know that there won't be a dime of Social Security money for them when they retire.

What they’ll get is a check with reduced purchasing power
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 07:53:13 PM
I told you that he was a  LONG time ago but here he is still trolling.

I know.   I think Nancy keeps cishim around for entertainment value.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:54:39 PM
Evidence?

https://www.nasi.org/learn/social-security/public-opinions-social-security (https://www.nasi.org/learn/social-security/public-opinions-social-security)

Public opinion in general is strongly in favor of social security. Young people tend to be left leaning in particular, as I'm sure you know.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
If I understand your comment correctly, I see it quite differently.

If SS died today, and folks like us who paid in never got anything back, it wouldn't be the younger generations that screwed us.  It would be us, our parents, and our grandparents.  The kids that are going to be expected to pay taxes to pay my SS never had a say in the matter.  Just because I paid in to pay the benefits for my parents and grandparents doesn't mean I should expect my kids and grandkids to pay for my benefits.  It's a Ponzi scheme, that's been evident from day one.  We could have taken the hit (actually, I expect I will, so I've always planned accordingly and just considered it yet another tax) and put an end to it, but we didn't. 

I'll stand up and applaud the generation who steps up and says, "No.  Screw that.  We didn't promise you jack.  Game over."

I'd hate to be from a generation that preceded that guy. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 07:56:09 PM
I'd hate to be from a generation that preceded that guy.

We should ignore each other if we can't have quality discussion. It's better for the forum.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 07:58:12 PM
We should ignore each other if we can't have quality discussion. It's better for the forum.

Since you are racking up the posts, I suppose it is I who should STFU, right? 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:00:22 PM
Since you are racking up the posts, I suppose it is I who should STFU, right?

I see no reason for us to acknowledge each other at all if it can't be done cordially. I'm not interested in flame wars.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 08:00:26 PM
If you think I'm a socialist it's only because you don't understand what that actually is. Also I doubt you've ever met anybody on the left with my particular set of views.

Like BigUn I know when a guy wants to <Gimme a break here> with views particular to yours,  And you sir are that kind of guy.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 08:00:55 PM
https://www.nasi.org/learn/social-security/public-opinions-social-security (https://www.nasi.org/learn/social-security/public-opinions-social-security)

Public opinion in general is strongly in favor of social security. Young people tend to be left leaning in particular, as I'm sure you know.

The link doesn’t break down age groups. I’m not saying you’re wrong or right. It’s you haven’t provided evidence to back your claim
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:03:24 PM
The link doesn’t break down age groups. I’m not saying you’re wrong or right. It’s you haven’t provided evidence to back your claim

It's common sense I think. Public opinion across all age groups is in favor of SS, so even without any other information what I said is true. Young people want social security. Also young people today are more left leaning than any other generation. It's obvious that they are very strongly in favor of social programs. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 08:04:08 PM
I see no reason for us to acknowledge each other at all if it can't be done cordially. I'm not interested in flame wars.

You have a point.  Since you are so thin-skinned that everything I say has some kind of quality problem, I'd suggest you exercise the "Ignore" feature at TBR.  I will not return the favor, because you're amusing to me.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 08:07:32 PM
Americans SAY they’re willing to pay more taxes to fund SS and Medicare, but it’s one thing to tell something to a pollster verses ones actions. Many of those same people will take all tax deductions to lower their personal burden.

What most people mean is they’re willing to have others pay more taxes.

BTW, I’m not against SS and Medicare as a safety net. But I think we need to face the mathematical and demographic realities when it comes to both. At one time, there was a lot more workers per retiree than today

Some have talked about things like means testing, block grants to states, partial privatization.

Each has its pros and cons
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 08:07:52 PM
You have a point.  Since you are so thin-skinned that everything I say has some kind of quality problem, I'd suggest you exercise the "Ignore" feature at TBR.  I will not return the favor, because you're amusing to me.

He is amusing.  I have seen his kind before.   Only Oceander has lasted the test of time.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:11:51 PM
You have a point.  Since you are so thin-skinned that everything I say has some kind of quality problem, I'd suggest you exercise the "Ignore" feature at TBR.  I will not return the favor, because you're amusing to me.

If I had thin skin I'd get upset at you and escalate the conflict rather than try to deescalate it. I want my presence to generate quality discussion and disagreement. I don't want to ignore you because I know you're capable of better. I don't come here to troll and be a jerk. I like to bounce my thoughts off of groups of people that see things differently. That's how I learn things and grow politically. I think it's possible for people to disagree with each other, never come to a complete resolution but learn something anyway.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:16:10 PM
Like BigUn I know when a guy wants to <Gimme a break here> with views particular to yours,  And you sir are that kind of guy.

All I want is to know more tomorrow than I know today, and challenging myself to face the opposition on their turf is a great way to achieve that. That's why I originally came here. It wasn't to cause trouble. I'm here because I'm not afraid to be wrong.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 08:18:49 PM
If I had thin skin I'd get upset at you and escalate the conflict rather than try to deescalate it. I want my presence to generate quality discussion and disagreement. I don't want to ignore you because I know you're capable of better. I don't come here to troll and be an bleep. I like to bounce my thoughts off of groups of people that see things differently. That's how I learn things I didn't know before and grow. I think it's possible for people to disagree with each other, never come to a complete resolution but maybe learn something anyway.

I think that is is total hogwash. You are and have always been a dem troll.   
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 23, 2018, 08:19:19 PM
Another issue facing these programs is rising interest rates and with 21 trillion in debt and rising, servicing the debt will become more expensive. Also, if taxes get too high for people’s comfort level, they make economic decisions that they feel are in their best interest. A perfect example is people leaving high tax states for lower tax states

SS is in less trouble than Medicare

BTW, I’m not mean and heartless. I’m a realist
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:24:43 PM
I think that is is total hogwash. You are and have always been a dem troll.

Trolls seek to reduce the quality of discussion. Do you really think that's my intention?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Trolls seek to reduce the quality of discussion. Do you really think that's my intention?

Oh no.  You always want to be the center of attention.  Please play thu.  The Mods have your back. 
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
The Mods have your back.

They're good mods. They know I'm not about low quality bickering so they tolerate me even though they probably take issue with a lot of my opinions. Do you want an echo chamber? That's boring.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 23, 2018, 08:49:47 PM
Is there anything else to be said about Miss Occasional Cortex, or are we just waiting for her next bone headed pronouncement?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 23, 2018, 09:04:17 PM
Is there anything else to be said about Miss Occasional Cortex, or are we just waiting for her next bone headed pronouncement?

Pretty sure it's the latter. 333cleo
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: The Ghost on November 23, 2018, 09:26:44 PM
They're good mods. They know I'm not about low quality bickering so they tolerate me even though they probably take issue with a lot of my opinions. Do you want an echo chamber? That's boring.

Oh no they know you are a low quality poster.  They took offense at my calling you a bleep and deleted my comment.   For that I apologize.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 09:29:40 PM
Can churches and other form of community charity really replace what these programs do to help people? We have a population of over 330 million. Would it perhaps be the case that a lot of people wouldn't get the kind of help they currently get from the government?

They did before.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 09:41:32 PM
I'm here because I'm not afraid to be wrong.

Well you've got to do what you're good at.  :shrug:

Don't worry... by the time you get some age on, time and experience will have no doubt knocked your socialist dreams to tatters There is a reason young folks are socialists and old folks are conservative.
You'd do well to listen to your elders. They didn't get to be elders by chance.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: roamer_1 on November 23, 2018, 09:44:05 PM
Is there anything else to be said about Miss Occasional Cortex, or are we just waiting for her next bone headed pronouncement?

We ran out of material on the first page... Just not that much to work with. :shrug:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 23, 2018, 09:49:36 PM
Is there anything else to be said about Miss Occasional Cortex, or are we just waiting for her next bone headed pronouncement?

Waiting?  I think she's the author of just about every other post on this thread.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 23, 2018, 09:58:50 PM
Waiting?  I think she's the author of just about every other post on this thread.

I wonder how she feels about immigration and nationalism.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Hoodat on November 23, 2018, 11:43:59 PM
It's common sense I think. Public opinion across all age groups is in favor of SS, so even without any other information what I said is true.

Apparently, logic is not your strong suit.  In order to make a valid claim that most young people are in favor of Social Security, you would have to present a sample exclusively made up of young and then polling them for their support/opposition to Social Security.  Instead, you have made a blanket statement of all people and then applied that statement exclusively to young people with zero evidence of support.  So no, there is no deductive way to claim your statement as "true".


Young people want social security.

Apparently, math isn't your strong suit either.  Consider a worker earning $25K/yr ($12/hr).  Beginning at age 25, this worker is allowed to take the portion of his income earmarked for Social Security taxes and invest that money in a fund averaging 7% growth.  He does this for 40 years earning the same $25K and investing the same amount each month.

When he retires at age 65, he will have a retirement fund of over $680,000.  The interest alone on that will net him a retirement salary of $47K - almost double what he made as a worker.  And he won't even have to touch the $680K.  That will remain intact until he dies, at which point it would pass to his children and grandchildren.

Given this option, you seriously think a young worker would prefer giving his money over to the government instead (to be spent immediately) with some promise that he will get a check from them until he dies at which point his children and grandchildren will be given a whopping $255 check?  Think, man.


Also young people today are more left leaning than any other generation.

Young people today are more cynical and apolitical than any other generation., thanks to broken government promises.  And they are already pissed off that the government has screwed them over bigtime on student loans with interest rates 3 times the discount rate.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 24, 2018, 01:19:30 AM
They're good mods. They know I'm not about low quality bickering so they tolerate me even though they probably take issue with a lot of my opinions. Do you want an echo chamber? That's boring.

@Dexter

Nobody here wants an echo chamber.

But a very good majority of us Don't want over simplified, worn out solipsisms and previously, copiously debunked BANNER ONE LINERS masking as serious debate.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 08:24:29 AM
Apparently, logic is not your strong suit.  In order to make a valid claim that most young people are in favor of Social Security, you would have to present a sample exclusively made up of young and then polling them for their support/opposition to Social Security.  Instead, you have made a blanket statement of all people and then applied that statement exclusively to young people with zero evidence of support.  So no, there is no deductive way to claim your statement as "true".

If all age groups are in favor of SS then that means young people are in favor of SS.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 08:30:48 AM
@Dexter

Nobody here wants an echo chamber.

But a very good majority of us Don't want over simplified, worn out solipsisms and previously, copiously debunked BANNER ONE LINERS masking as serious debate.

Most left leaning people would be calling you a Nazi and cursing your very existence. Surely I'm at least better than most of the others, right? I can't fit into any circle anymore because of my particular set of views, and that's thanks to things I've learned on this forum. I'd get banned from DU in about 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Axeslinger on November 24, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
Most left leaning people would be calling you a Nazi and cursing your very existence. Surely I'm at least better than most of the others, right? I can't fit into any circle anymore because of my particular set of views, and that's thanks to things I've learned on this forum. I'd get banned from DU in about 10 minutes.
@Dexter

Like what?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Night Hides Not on November 24, 2018, 08:47:41 AM
@Dexter

Nobody here wants an echo chamber.

But a very good majority of us Don't want over simplified, worn out solipsisms and previously, copiously debunked BANNER ONE LINERS masking as serious debate.

I'm not so sure about that, TWB.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Night Hides Not on November 24, 2018, 08:52:34 AM
Most left leaning people would be calling you a Nazi and cursing your very existence. Surely I'm at least better than most of the others, right? I can't fit into any circle anymore because of my particular set of views, and that's thanks to things I've learned on this forum. I'd get banned from DU in about 10 minutes.

Absolute horse dung. Only the most virulent of liberals go so low as to invoke Hitler/Nazism. The kind of broad brush claims you're making are indicative of intellectual laziness. They detract from the points you're trying to make.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 09:12:32 AM
Absolute horse dung. Only the most virulent of liberals go so low as to invoke Hitler/Nazism. The kind of broad brush claims you're making are indicative of intellectual laziness. They detract from the points you're trying to make.

I think you underestimate how polarized and rage-driven the left has become. I can't even talk to most of them anymore because everything is exaggerated or intentionally misinterpreted nonsense. They're not honest.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 09:13:57 AM
@Dexter

Like what?

Nationalism, immigration and the second amendment. Even on the right most people don't take those things as far as I do. Liberals on DU hate this country and anybody that prioritizes its interests.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Once-Ler on November 24, 2018, 09:21:20 AM
Quality post.
:rolling:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 09:30:42 AM
Obama and Hillary are suggesting that the right is a bunch of racists and deplorables. It should come as no surprise that most drones on the left see y'all as such.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Once-Ler on November 24, 2018, 09:37:11 AM
They're good mods. They know I'm not about low quality bickering so they tolerate me even though they probably take issue with a lot of my opinions. Do you want an echo chamber? That's boring.
@Dexter
They are good mods, and you are challenging the popular opinions of this group in a dignified, forceful, and rational way...that is why some call you names and sputter impotently, and others rise to the challenge and offer substantive rebuttals.  I am enjoying the thoughtful debate, and laughing at the name callers.  It's a win-win for me.  Bravo
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 24, 2018, 09:40:46 AM
Obama and Hillary are suggesting that the right is a bunch of racists and deplorables. It should come as no surprise that most drones on the left see y'all as such.

That's because they are totally ignorant of history.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 09:51:20 AM
@Dexter
They are good mods, and you are challenging the popular opinions of this group in a dignified, forceful, and rational way...that is why some call you names and sputter impotently, and others rise to the challenge and offer substantive rebuttals.  I am enjoying the thoughtful debate, and laughing at the name callers.  It's a win-win for me.  Bravo

Thank you Once-Ler. There have always been great posters here; that's why years later I'm still here throwing my ideas into the fray. Even the ones that name call tend to have quite a lot of depth to their thinking. I really wish I could engage with people like @Bigun more. If he stopped assuming the worst about me I could probably learn a lot from him, even if we'll never share the same world view.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: bigheadfred on November 24, 2018, 09:51:36 AM
That's because they are totally ignorant of history.

You could have stopped at totally ignorant.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
That's because they are totally ignorant of history.

Most people just want to be told how to think by people they trust. I think that's unfortunately true of both sides. The people in places like this are the exception.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 24, 2018, 09:55:54 AM
This debate here is a microcosm of what we are going to see in the next decade or so in Congress as funds become increasingly tighter as deficits and debt rise. Ultimately, it’s not going to be taxpayers or politicians that decide this but investors. Thats what happened in Greece, Spain, Portugal, ect ect and, here, Detroit and soon to other cities. And if the economy crashes as a result and austerity is forced, it can never be said the warning signs weren’t  there
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 24, 2018, 10:01:15 AM
You could have stopped at totally ignorant.

Most people have no clue when it comes to our country’s fiscal situation. Nor do they know the true cost, including unfunded liabilities, of the entitlement programs
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 24, 2018, 10:05:11 AM
Most people have no clue when it comes to our country’s fiscal situation. Nor do they know the true cost, including unfunded liabilities, of the entitlement programs
That's true. And newly minted congresswoman Ocasio knows even less than most!  9999hair out0000
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: txradioguy on November 24, 2018, 10:05:34 AM
Most people just want to be told how to think by people they trust. I think that's unfortunately true of both sides. The people in places like this are the exception.

No if you study history...truly look at it for yourself and not just what's indoctrinated to you in schools...you'll find that the Democrat party of 2018 isn't that much different from the party in 1918...they've just come up with modern day versions of slavery for people of color.  The left has always been about control...whether it's slaves on a plantation or population control with eugenics or just control over everyone and everything they do under the guise of health care.  The left isn't about individual freedoms and rights...they are bout group think...top down control only allowing a person to have as much freedom as the government feels they need.

And people who trust that kind of political philosophy...are sheep.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Bigun on November 24, 2018, 10:12:47 AM
No if you study history...truly look at it for yourself and not just what's indoctrinated to you in schools...you'll find that the Democrat party of 2018 isn't that much different from the party in 1918...they've just come up with modern day versions of slavery for people of color.  The left has always been about control...whether it's slaves on a plantation or population control with eugenics or just control over everyone and everything they do under the guise of health care.  The left isn't about individual freedoms and rights...they are bout group think...top down control only allowing a person to have as much freedom as the government feels they need.

And people who trust that kind of political philosophy...are sheep.

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."

Daniel Webster
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 24, 2018, 10:46:06 AM
Thank you Once-Ler. There have always been great posters here; that's why years later I'm still here throwing my ideas into the fray. Even the ones that name call tend to have quite a lot of depth to their thinking. I really wish I could engage with people like @Bigun more. If he stopped assuming the worst about me I could probably learn a lot from him, even if we'll never share the same world view.

Sounded good in your head, didn't it?  *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 11:09:56 AM
Sounded good in your head, didn't it?  *****rollingeyes*****

I wish you could forgive me for being incapable of thinking the way you do. I respect you even if we're political adversaries. The quality I admire the most in other people is intelligence. I respect you a lot more than I respect dumb people that agree with everything I say. There are things you can teach me. Dumb people have no use to me.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: bigheadfred on November 24, 2018, 11:55:46 AM
History. One of the greatest masterstrokes was the advent of the industrial revolution.  Instead of being a mere serf, or "slave"  you had the chance to become one of the "Jones'. The oligarchy realized they could amass Trillions in wealth. While at the same time keeping their subjects under control. The American Dream. Let the people be self-determining. Be their own man. With their new found wealth the people were more than willing to accept "Amendments" to the Constitution. To accept entitlement programs. To DIE in meaningless wars. For freedom.

Then throw entertainment at them. Pro sports. And now tech. Smoke and mirrors.

Not to get too Biblical, but here it comes.

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

I am no different than most. A wage slave. But I hate money. But still, render unto Ceasar. But truly in my heart and my head--my soul, I only (try) to serve one Master.




Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 24, 2018, 12:08:07 PM
No if you study history...truly look at it for yourself and not just what's indoctrinated to you in schools...you'll find that the Democrat party of 2018 isn't that much different from the party in 1918...they've just come up with modern day versions of slavery for people of color.  The left has always been about control...whether it's slaves on a plantation or population control with eugenics or just control over everyone and everything they do under the guise of health care.  The left isn't about individual freedoms and rights...they are bout group think...top down control only allowing a person to have as much freedom as the government feels they need.

And people who trust that kind of political philosophy...are sheep.

Another Texas radio guy (David Gold) used to call them sheeple.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Emjay on November 24, 2018, 12:10:40 PM
This is the first time I've clicked on this thread.  The topic was of no interest to me and I couldn't figure out why it was of 19 page interest to other people.

Now I know.  Infighting.  Our favorite sport.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: bigheadfred on November 24, 2018, 12:18:20 PM
This is the first time I've clicked on this thread.  The topic was of no interest to me and I couldn't figure out why it was of 19 page interest to other people.

Now I know.  Infighting.  Our favorite sport.

I first clicked on this thread last night. Had to go back to page one to find out what the thread topic was actually supposed to be.

PS: Happy Halloween!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: LMAO on November 24, 2018, 12:31:21 PM
This is the first time I've clicked on this thread.  The topic was of no interest to me and I couldn't figure out why it was of 19 page interest to other people.

Now I know.  Infighting.  Our favorite sport.

One of the legs of the Conservative stool is fiscal conservatism. I am as deficit hawkish as they come. In so much as I’m probably on of the few that actually read CBO reports on our fiscal situation. And I have found in my own surroundings that most cannot tell you what our debt is or our current debt to GDP ratio is. Any polls that tell you that people are willing to pay more for such and such are misleading. I have no doubt that when people are asked if they are willing to pay more in taxes for entitlement programs that most people answered yes.   However, in the real world, without the fear of looking bad to a Pollster,  they make economic decisions to avoid paying more taxes.  Examples are moving out of high tax areas, and looking for every deduction.

I consider these fiscal issues the biggest issue threatening this country. I don’t care what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom. My conservatism is along the lines of Calvin Coolidge or Barry Goldwater. And although sometimes he can be off his rocker a little bit, I like a lot of what Ron Paul has to say.

Statements like we need to raise taxes even more to pay for things or we need to get rid of fraud and waste in these programs to save them sounds good but in the real world, it’s a lot more difficult

I understand the pressure politicians are under. Getting Americans to accept  meaningful and necessary reforms in entitlement programs that are currently popular is difficult, especially when you have politicians making promises that sound good but  probably won’t be able to be kept.  And the average persons economic ignorance doesn’t help, either. I have seen Medicare starting pay for less and less over my 30 year career. I suspect that’s going to continue

Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 24, 2018, 12:34:13 PM
This is the first time I've clicked on this thread.  The topic was of no interest to me and I couldn't figure out why it was of 19 page interest to other people.

Now I know.  Infighting.  Our favorite sport.

Complete with calling posters "low-quality."  That little shit gets no-quality from me..not worth the waste of my time. *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Dexter on November 24, 2018, 12:39:23 PM
Complete with calling posters "low-quality."  That little shit gets no-quality from me..not worth the waste of my time. *****rollingeyes*****

I didn't call anybody low quality. I said some people choose to make low quality/effort posts sometimes.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: DCPatriot on November 24, 2018, 01:13:48 PM
I'm not so sure about that, TWB.

Nobody wants an echo chamber whatsoever.

@Dexter is actually a sight for sore eyes.   Honest debate with opened mind.

Debating with intelligent, albeit stubborn egos over everything Trump for 3+ years now has gotten tired and worn at the edges.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 24, 2018, 02:29:48 PM
Debating with intelligent, albeit stubborn egos over everything Trump for 3+ years now has gotten tired and worn at the edges.

As a somewhat disinterested third-party (as you know I don't have a "side"), I have to agree with you.  I'm tired of the Trump Wars, and wish somebody would talk about something else for a change.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: mountaineer on November 24, 2018, 02:32:50 PM
This thread is better than tryptophan!
(https://modernfarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Turkey_anatonmy-.jpg)
Happy post-Thanksgiving to all!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 24, 2018, 02:35:22 PM
This thread is better than tryptophan!
(https://modernfarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Turkey_anatonmy-.jpg)
Happy post-Thanksgiving to all!

I hope you've had a happy and blessed Thanksgiving!
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 24, 2018, 02:37:14 PM
I didn't call anybody low quality. I said some people choose to make low quality/effort posts sometimes.

I'm glad you make that distinction, because when I'm tired or in a stroppy mood I dump all pretenses of quality assurance.   :cool:

(I can't be profound 24/7.)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: bigheadfred on November 24, 2018, 02:46:43 PM
I'm glad you make that distinction, because when I'm tired or in a stroppy mood I dump all pretenses of quality assurance.   :cool:

(I can't be profound 24/7.)

The pros and cons. If you can find it.  :laugh:

Ask our "Founding" fathers, if need be.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: DCPatriot on November 24, 2018, 03:20:03 PM
This is the first time I've clicked on this thread.  The topic was of no interest to me and I couldn't figure out why it was of 19 page interest to other people.

Now I know.  Infighting.  Our favorite sport.

"Great perils have this beauty, that they bring to light the fraternity of strangers"... Victor Hugo

...except if it involves Donald J. Trump      wink777
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: bigheadfred on November 24, 2018, 05:57:43 PM
"Great perils have this beauty, that they bring to light the fraternity of strangers"... Victor Hugo

...except if it involves Donald J. Trump      wink777

Close. But not quite. It isn't Trump we are relying on.  It is YOU. And until, if ever, you can see, feel, or understand, stand by your idol. With your mouth shut.

 333cleo



Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: DCPatriot on November 24, 2018, 11:31:51 PM
Close. But not quite. It isn't Trump we are relying on.  It is YOU. And until, if ever, you can see, feel, or understand, stand by your idol. With your mouth shut.

 333cleo

September 11, 2001 was a date that brought strangers together.  December 7, 1941 was another.

And November 8, 2016 was too!   But ya'll didn't catch it with your head up your a$$.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: WarmPotato on November 25, 2018, 12:47:56 AM
She's a snore, why bother talking about her?
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: Cyber Liberty on November 25, 2018, 01:07:22 AM
She's a snore, why bother talking about her?

@WarmPotato

Because she cornered the market on white Chiclets and we have to do something!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Kaugummis_cropped.jpg)
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: InHeavenThereIsNoBeer on November 25, 2018, 01:30:27 AM
@WarmPotato

Because she cornered the market on white Chiclets and we have to do something!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Kaugummis_cropped.jpg)

BUT WHAT ABOUT MY WORTHLESS YOUTYUBE CHANNEL???
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: To-Whose-Benefit? on November 25, 2018, 03:30:31 AM
@WarmPotato

Because she cornered the market on white Chiclets and we have to do something!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Kaugummis_cropped.jpg)


New Study: the only people who don't know what socialism is are the socialists.
Title: Re: Ocasio-Cortez prepares for war… on her own party
Post by: GrouchoTex on November 26, 2018, 09:11:40 AM
No if you study history...truly look at it for yourself and not just what's indoctrinated to you in schools...you'll find that the Democrat party of 2018 isn't that much different from the party in 1918...they've just come up with modern day versions of slavery for people of color.  The left has always been about control...whether it's slaves on a plantation or population control with eugenics or just control over everyone and everything they do under the guise of health care.  The left isn't about individual freedoms and rights...they are bout group think...top down control only allowing a person to have as much freedom as the government feels they need.

And people who trust that kind of political philosophy...are sheep.

True, shades of Woodrow Wilson, Indeed.