The Briefing Room

General Category => History/Archaelogy => Topic started by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 01:24:52 PM

Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 01:24:52 PM
Quote
The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'

    Thousands were expected to attend the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia on Saturday
    At least two were seriously hurt in the heated clashes, Virginia State police reported
    First Lady Melania Trump admonished the day's events, tweeting: 'Our country encourages freedom of speech, but let's communicate w/o hate in our hearts. No good comes from violence'
    The rally was being held at Emancipation Park and hundreds were seen stomping through the city
    Charlottesville Mayor Mike Signer denounced the 'cowardly parade of hatred, bigotry, racism, and intolerance march down the lawns of the architect of our Bill of Rights'
    A local state of emergency was declared around 11am and the rally was determined an unlawful assembly
    Alt right leader Jason Kessler led a torch lit march through the University of Virginia campus on Friday
    Hundreds of white nationalists joined him in the march which ended at the statue of Thomas Jefferson
    The alt-right activists were heard chanting 'Jews will not replace us' and 'white lives matter'
    They clashed with University of Virginia students who held an anti-racist protest on the grounds
    Director of the Center on Extremism said Saturday's event could 'be a potentially historic showcase of hate'


By Cheyenne Roundtree and Hannah Parry For Dailymail.com

Published: 01:43 EDT, 12 August 2017 | Updated: 13:17 EDT, 12 August 2017


Read more: [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783914/White-nationalists-hold-torch-lit-march-UVA-campus.html#ixzz4pYxCfMO9[/url]
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Surprised this hasn't been reported on today; hot story in the news.

Related: https://www.voanews.com/a/us-southern-secessionists/3982929.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Rivergirl on August 12, 2017, 01:29:05 PM
No wonder mulanya chose to comment about 'free speech'.    It's the alt-right being excoriated for their so called 'free speech.  She's there to offer the same type of support bannion gave to jeff lord.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 12, 2017, 01:40:14 PM
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.  What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.  Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Blizzardnh on August 12, 2017, 01:52:31 PM
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.  What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.  Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.
  https://wallbuilders.com/library-2/
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 12, 2017, 01:53:58 PM
Quote
Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump  34m34 minutes ago
More
 We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!

Now there is a Trump tweet I can get behind.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 01:55:09 PM
Surprised this hasn't been reported on today; hot story in the news.



Garbage v. Garbage.

Too bad they can't totally eliminate each other, and make the world a nicer place.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 01:59:27 PM
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.  What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.  Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.

Well put.  There are many of us southern preservationist who absolutely shudder that these pukes think they are speaking for us.

Like I said in an earlier post, it would suit me fine if all the KKK, and the BLM turds simultaneously evaporated off the earth at once.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: guitar4jesus on August 12, 2017, 02:08:35 PM
Now there is a Trump tweet I can get behind.

Yep.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 02:09:06 PM
Drudge is reporting on this so I decided to post; latest is:


Quote
Aug 12, 1:52 PM EDT
Vehicle plows into a group of counter-protesters at a white nationalist rally in Virginia; injuries unknown
[url]http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_APNEWSALERT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-08-12-13-52-16[/url]


I don't mind the Confederate flag; but when it is hijacked for other purposes or if the Swastika is also flying, I'm not going to go near that group.


Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 02:27:38 PM
Idiots all around.  Just put them all in a cage and let them beat each other to death.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: truth_seeker on August 12, 2017, 02:30:07 PM
Skokie case decided in favor of KKK's free speech rights, by the US Supreme Court.

The KKK was historically affiliated with the democrat party, was obviously racist and anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, etc.

It is a scurrilous smear, to falsely associate them with this President, or with Republicans now, or ever. It is, ironically, what democrats do. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 02:30:50 PM
Now there is a Trump tweet I can get behind.

Ditto. I wonder which staff member wrote it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 02:32:59 PM
Now there is a Trump tweet I can get behind.

Agreed. :patriot:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Victoria33 on August 12, 2017, 02:34:30 PM
A car has just plowed into a group of people.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 12, 2017, 02:36:24 PM
A car has just plowed into a group of people.

Moron wrecked his own car and the car in front of him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 02:36:49 PM
Erwin Rommel he aint.

(http://i.imgur.com/Lg0Ej9K.png)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 12, 2017, 02:39:52 PM
Skokie case decided in favor of KKK's free speech rights, by the US Supreme Court.

The KKK was historically affiliated with the democrat party, was obviously racist and anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, etc.

It is a scurrilous smear, to falsely associate them with this President, or with Republicans now, or ever. It is, ironically, what democrats do.

Still trying to erase how Nixon ran his very successful 'Southern strategy' to peel those KKK members and other like-minded voters away.  It was the perfect opportunity, too... what with the Democrats having just passed the civil rights legislation.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 02:39:53 PM
Moron wrecked his own car and the car in front of him.

I think the collective IQ of everyone there is about 50.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 12, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
One of the organizers of the march was a black man, a mod at "/r/The_Donald", according to "The_Donald" at Reddit. True or not I don't know.

Bizarre.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 02:43:09 PM
And of course the media presence is only serving to ratchet things up even more.  That's what they want.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 12, 2017, 02:49:14 PM
Still trying to erase how Nixon ran his very successful 'Southern strategy' to peel those KKK members and other like-minded voters away.  It was the perfect opportunity, too... what with the Democrats having just passed the civil rights legislation.
There was no "southern strategy." That's a canard foisted by libs to slander Nixon.  The fact was Southern whites, like many conservative Americans, were turned off by the McGovern campaign that was the most pro-socialist/leftist campaign to that point. I was a Democrat then, and I didn't vote for McGovern because of the leftists and kooks I saw at the Dem national convention.
To get those voters all Nixon had to do was appeal to patriotism and define the McGovern campaign as leftist....which it was.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 02:50:59 PM
Well, the media has gotten what they wanted.  They could have just ignored these pukes and let them have their little rally with nobody caring.  But noooooo, they wanted blood.....well, they got it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 12, 2017, 02:54:04 PM
There was no "southern strategy." That's a canard foisted by libs to slander Nixon.  The fact was Southern whites, like many conservative Americans, were turned off by the McGovern campaign that was the most pro-socialist/leftist campaign to that point. I was a Democrat then, and I didn't vote for McGovern because of the leftists and kooks I saw at the Dem national convention.
To get those voters all Nixon had to do was appeal to patriotism and define the McGovern campaign as leftist....which it was.

From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

-Kevin Phillips, Nixon's political strategist

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 12, 2017, 02:55:14 PM
Drudge is reporting on this so I decided to post; latest is:


I don't mind the Confederate flag; but when it is hijacked for other purposes or if the Swastika is also flying, I'm not going to go near that group.
Many of those white nationalists thought they had a natural ally in Trump. I'm not a huge fan of  Trump, but I knew he would not ally with those nuts.  If they thought Trump would have an interest with allying with a hate group, they were going to be severely disappointed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
Someone in the comments section stated that the "white nationalist" side only had about 200 persons... so maybe this is not even newsworthy but the media reports it and Drudge went red on his banner headline.  It is all pretty pathetic.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 03:00:34 PM
From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

-Kevin Phillips, Nixon's political strategist

Realizing political realities is not necessarily racist.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 12, 2017, 03:01:04 PM
From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

-Kevin Phillips, Nixon's political strategist
yeah, Phillips was the one who propagated the myth. So what?  The fact was many Democrats, including Northerner yours truly,  were turned off by McGovern's leftist campaign.....if appealing to patriotism and condemning leftism is a "southern strategy," then Pubbie pols across the country for the last fifty years have been employing that strategy.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:06:13 PM
Say looking in today's news, a protest in India:

(http://img.theepochtimes.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2017/08/09/2017-08-09T112726Z_1_LYNXMPED780VC_RTROPTP_3_INDIA-RALLY-676x450.jpg)
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2278558-thousands-of-protesters-disrupt-traffic-in-indias-financial-capital/?sidebar=morein

These kinds of rallies as in Virginia are always small; not really newsworthy. If Drudge wasn't making a deal of it, I probably would have skipped it.  The forum should cover what is in the news.  Fault the media or myself I guess.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 03:07:29 PM
Say looking in today's news, a protest in India:

([url]http://img.theepochtimes.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2017/08/09/2017-08-09T112726Z_1_LYNXMPED780VC_RTROPTP_3_INDIA-RALLY-676x450.jpg[/url])
[url]http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2278558-thousands-of-protesters-disrupt-traffic-in-indias-financial-capital/?sidebar=morein[/url]

These kinds of rallies as in Virginia are always small; not really newsworthy. If Drudge wasn't making a deal of it, I probably would have skipped it.  The forum should cover what is in the news.  Fault the media or myself I guess.


Exactly, the media saw this as a good opportunity to link the White Supremacist marchers with Trump.  That's the only reason they were interested in covering it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
Video of the car running through protesters here:
http://www.redstate.com/absentee/2017/08/12/breaking-terror-charlottesville-car-speeds-crowd-protesters-shocking-video/?utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=socialflow_RedState&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 03:09:26 PM
Meanwhile more people protest at Planned Parenthood offices everyday, and the media never mentions them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:10:47 PM
Louisiana still has a huge, almost half Democratic constituency, Georgia was still Democratic until the 2000s. The argument that is made doesn't even hold up.

As has been said, "smaller government", "lower taxes", "independence", there were issues to appeal to voters on besides the divisive ones.

http://blackrepublican.blogspot.com/2012/06/republicans-and-democrats-did-not.html

Quote
The "Southern Strategy" that began in the 1970's was an effort by Nixon to get fair-minded people in the South to stop voting for Democrats who did not share their values and were discriminating against blacks.  Georgia did not switch until 2004, and Louisiana was controlled by Democrats until the election of Republican Bobby Jindal, a person of color, as governor in 2007.


The timeline doesn't even hold up. Also, let's not forget at times, the Democratic party even appears anti-white, anti-Christian, etc.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:11:31 PM
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502564364260.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 03:12:36 PM
([url]https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502564364260.jpg[/url])


(http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/001/120/171/64de9eda2c877101903287672efebc3f.gif)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: truth_seeker on August 12, 2017, 03:16:01 PM
Still trying to erase how Nixon ran his very successful 'Southern strategy' to peel those KKK members and other like-minded voters away.  It was the perfect opportunity, too... what with the Democrats having just passed the civil rights legislation.
Well thanks you for bringing that up, and reminding me to cite Reagan's first campaign stop in 1980, in Alabama, where he gave his "State's Rights" speech.

You seem to be on the wrong site, for your opinions. (you are effectively calling the Republican Party, racist.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan%27s_Neshoba_County_Fair_%22states%27_rights%22_speech
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: truth_seeker on August 12, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that...but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

-Kevin Phillips, Nixon's political strategist

You are on the wrong site, if calling Republicans racists is all you have.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 12, 2017, 03:21:45 PM
Trump to speak shortly
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 12, 2017, 03:24:06 PM
Well thanks you for bringing that up, and reminding me to cite Reagan's first campaign stop in 1980, in Alabama, where he gave his "State's Rights" speech.

You seem to be on the wrong site, for your opinions. (you are effectively calling the Republican Party, racist.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan%27s_Neshoba_County_Fair_%22states%27_rights%22_speech

Buckley did a massive service for the GOP for purging the bigots.

Since then, they've crept back in.

Buchanon is a perfect example.  A persona non grata in the GOP till the 2000s, when he was somehow 'rehabilitated'.

And your views represent those pre-Buckley, Nixonian types that have skulked back into the GOP.

If anything, you are the antithesis of Reaganesque conservativism.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:30:15 PM
Buckley did a massive service for the GOP for purging the bigots.

Since then, they've crept back in.

Buchanon is a perfect example.  A persona non grata in the GOP till the 2000s, when he was somehow 'rehabilitated'.

And your views represent those pre-Buckley, Nixonian types that have skulked back into the GOP.

If anything, you are the antithesis of Reaganesque conservativism.

One likes to cast stones, as far as I can see, one is pro-Muslim, we might as well, turn the words as you do and say pro-terrorism for the way we see you construe things.   Pro-Diversity, anti-Christian and so on.

You don't put your beliefs on the line while you deprecate the views of conservatives.

As black pro-lifers say, planned parenthood, the Democrats pet cause, kills way more blacks than the Klan ever did. Yet, you may well stand behind the Democratic party.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:30:41 PM
Police caught the perp who mowed down the crowd ISIS style.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDSA-UUwAAq93j?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 03:31:53 PM
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6ZXIJQBpyY

Interesting compiler of live feeds
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:34:14 PM
HJ seems to preach multi-culturalism, hence, all of this about diversity. This is not really American and some say it is indeed Marxist or Communist as well. The person who is so critical should have their views scrutinized as well; as if calling people bigots is a big, oh my gosh, you know you are right.  Multi-culturalism is basically a religion by the left to replace Christianity.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:35:29 PM
Trump to speak shortly

On now
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 03:36:22 PM
The Sun reports one dead from that ramming incident.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4229967/white-supremacists-unite-the-right-far-right-rally-virginia/
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 12, 2017, 03:41:42 PM
Trump to speak shortly

Trump could own this moment (in a good way) if he wanted to. Wish I could see his speech.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 03:41:51 PM
I grew up less than 30 miles from here.  Robert E. Lee has always been a hero to me.  And now these white-supremacist Klucker assholes have ruined any chance of keeping these monuments up throughout the Commonwealth.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:44:43 PM
Trump could own this moment (in a good way) if he wanted to. Wish I could see his speech.

It was a good opportunity for a home run. Instead, it was an infield hit. Not bad, but not a home run either.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:46:21 PM
Not much different than ISIS's recent tactics.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDXcLdVoAA0Ywy?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:47:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDZcKbVwAAnr45.jpg:large)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: truth_seeker on August 12, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
Buckley did a massive service for the GOP for purging the bigots.

Since then, they've crept back in.

Buchanon is a perfect example.  A persona non grata in the GOP till the 2000s, when he was somehow 'rehabilitated'.

And your views represent those pre-Buckley, Nixonian types that have skulked back into the GOP.

If anything, you are the antithesis of Reaganesque conservativism.

Pure baloney. You are a phony conservative, and cannot respond point by point. Reagan went to Alabama first. Deal with it. (Buchanan didn't run as a Republican.)

I'll say it again. You are on the wrong site, if you simply intend to call Republicans, racists. Before or now.

Why don't you spend as much energy, calling blacks racists, since they vote democrat, the very party of racist Southern of yore, the KKK, etc.?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 03:56:29 PM
Hey dumbass, Trump just condemned it.

Quote
David Duke: Charlottesville Rally ‘Fulfills The Promises Of Donald Trump’

During a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va. on Saturday, former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke said the event is in line with President Trump’s “promises.”

“This represents a turning point for the people of this country. We are determined to take our country back,” Duke said. “We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump. That’s what we believed in. That’s why we voted for Donald Trump, because he said he’s going to take our country back.”

[url]http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/david-duke-charlottesville-rally-trump-promises[/url]


Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 04:00:51 PM
Driver.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDbT1cV0AAqP-r?format=jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 04:02:21 PM
Hey dumbass, Trump just condemned it.

Duke is like the "Washington Generals" to the Harlem Globetrotters.  The "Bogey Man" the Left uses.    Who pays his bills?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 04:04:12 PM
(http://thechronicleherald.ca/sites/default/files/u27129/The_Car_Uk.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 12, 2017, 04:12:28 PM
No wonder mulanya chose to comment about 'free speech'.    It's the alt-right being excoriated for their so called 'free speech.  She's there to offer the same type of support bannion gave to jeff lord.

What the heck are you talking about??   
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 04:15:26 PM
Hey dumbass, Trump just condemned it.

Yes he did and Duke's comments are a perfect example of the stupidity of so many of these people. Trump has clearly stated that he wants these confederate monuments and flag in a museum.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 04:16:13 PM
Quite honestly a lot of the blame needs to be put at the feet of the Hard Left SJW types who insist on trying to erase history.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 12, 2017, 04:24:13 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 04:29:52 PM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 04:31:08 PM
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo[/url]


At least he didn't start off with a shoutout to Joe Medicine Crow.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 04:31:30 PM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502568583136.png)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 04:33:35 PM
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502567738792.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 12, 2017, 04:36:01 PM
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo[/url]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msY25ynGTuo[/url]



Should have omitted the touting of the employment gains and such. Otherwise, very good. And he seems to mean what he says.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502568583136.png)

Glad those were grabbed before they got flushed down the Facebook memory hole.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 04:38:03 PM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.

I'd hold off on that since I'm seeing other "confirmed" names being thrown out there as well.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 12, 2017, 04:38:04 PM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.

Has this been confirmed @Hoodat ?  (I'm TV deprived and can't find a print source)  Thanks.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 04:38:20 PM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.


https://www.facebook.com/joel.notavailable
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 04:40:53 PM
Has this been confirmed @Hoodat ?  (I'm TV deprived and can't find a print source)  Thanks.

Not to my satisfaction.  Still looking.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 04:43:17 PM
Very ironic post from the perp a few years ago.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1990802580417&set=pb.1553943587.-2207520000.1502570547.&type=3&theater
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 12, 2017, 04:44:20 PM

Should have omitted the touting of the employment gains and such. Otherwise, very good. And he seems to mean what he says.

Yes . the employment segue surprised me ... but when I listened a second time I think it might have been an attempt at a reason  to calm down ... things are moving along in the right direction.    :shrug:

But I agree .. I found him sincere, too.

@endicom
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 12, 2017, 04:44:49 PM
Not to my satisfaction.  Still looking.

Me, too.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 04:45:30 PM
https://joelvanart.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 04:47:01 PM
'Unite the Right' rally: Car plows into counterprotesters


Daily Progress Staff Reports 1 hr ago


CHARLOTTESVILLE — Authorities are on the scene after a vehicle plowed into a group of people marching peacefully through downtown Charlottesville.

An Associated Press reporter saw at least one person on the ground receiving medical treatment immediately afterward the incident, which occurred approximately two hours after violent clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters.

The gray vehicle hit at least five pedestrians on the Downtown Mall near Urban Outfitters, according to media reports and police reports. A Daily Progress reporter at the scene said the car was pulled over by police. An emergency alert reported that several had broken legs.  .   .  .

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/crime/unite-the-right-rally-car-plows-into-counterprotesters/article_6086b838-7f92-11e7-9494-47d2887ee8cd.html



Here at least is something saying the driver was caught.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 12, 2017, 05:15:31 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 05:25:38 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they what, WAR

   That is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen you type @jpsb   
   To insinuate that NT'ers here are aligned with the 'progressive left' in any manner, war or no war, just because we didn't vote for 'your' guy, is just absurd, but carry on.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 05:26:01 PM
BREAKING - Charlottesville, VA helicopter crash with likely fatalities. Local fire official and Media advising crash is a Virginia State Police Helicopter- VFN102
Virginia Fire Network
20 mins ·

Charlottesville, VA: *AIRCRAFT DOWN* 43 Old Farm Rd. Helicopter down & fully involved. One or two souls possibly still aboard (VFN102)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 12, 2017, 05:29:26 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR

Are you lumping Trump's critics on TBR with the leftists AGAIN?  That's getting pretty old.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 05:29:59 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR

It seems the ones chomping at the bit for CWII or Revolution II or whatever they want to call it are the hard core freeper types who are solid pro-Trump- not the Never Trumpers.

At that, they are the ones right now cheering the driver 'clearing the way' of people blocking the road and wishing he hit more and hoping this lights the CWII fuse they think neeeds to happen. (just browse over there if you have the stomach)

The Conservative Never Trumpers as you call them, have no pieces on this particular chessboard.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 12, 2017, 05:30:50 PM
...but when I listened a second time I think it might have been an attempt at a reason  to calm down ... things are moving along in the right direction.



I think you're right, Right but I thought it didn't come across well.

@Right_in_Virginia
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 12, 2017, 05:31:03 PM
   That is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen you type @jpsb   
   To insinuate that NT'ers here are aligned with the 'progressive left' in any manner, war or no war, just because we didn't vote for 'your' guy, is just absurd, but carry on.

Not voting for is one thing, attacking 24/7 like you do @corbe is another.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Axeslinger on August 12, 2017, 05:31:31 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR
@jpsb

Trumpaholic exhibit #23,472

What a douche
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 05:31:41 PM
Uuuugh, speaking of which, just posted by a disgustoid on FR.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDNrmpUAAAxA_H.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 12, 2017, 05:32:19 PM
Are you lumping Trump's critics on TBR with the leftists AGAIN?  That's getting pretty old.

walks like a duck .......
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 05:35:57 PM
Not voting for is one thing, attacking 24/7 like you do @corbe is another.

   In defense of my Character, @jpsb I have defended the President on quite a few occasions, just not blinded by his brilliance like a few of yall are here, not that there's anything wrong with that.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Axeslinger on August 12, 2017, 05:38:49 PM
   In defense of my Character, @jpsb I have defended the President on quite a few occasions, just not blinded by his brilliance like a few of yall are here, not that there's anything wrong with that.

@corbe

There is NO need to defend your character here against the likes of @jpsb 
Both are well known and only one appears wanting (spoiler: it ain't yours)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 05:39:57 PM
BREAKING - Charlottesville, VA helicopter crash with likely fatalities. Local fire official and Media advising crash is a Virginia State Police Helicopter- VFN102
Virginia Fire Network
20 mins ·

Charlottesville, VA: *AIRCRAFT DOWN* 43 Old Farm Rd. Helicopter down & fully involved. One or two souls possibly still aboard (VFN102)

Oh no... **nononono*
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 12, 2017, 05:40:25 PM
(https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1502/56/1502564364260.jpg)

It's hard to get anything good out of that type of incident, but I did notice one thing.  People ran towards the event as it was happening, and when the creature in the car backed up, presumably to run, a number of people ran after him/her.  When I've seen videos of incidents like this elsewhere, everybody scatters and runs away.  (not always, but as a broad, general point)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 05:40:48 PM
walks like a duck .......

Of all the stupid... **nononono*
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Freya on August 12, 2017, 05:42:28 PM
Oh no... **nononono*


Oh no indeed. Prayers up.  :0001:

http://www.newsadvance.com/news/state/state-police-helicopter-crashes-near-charlottesville-area-golf-course-witnesses/article_116a62c2-dfb4-580a-a4d3-287250f8836e.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 05:44:57 PM
Oh no indeed. Prayers up.  :0001:

Yes most definitely.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 05:48:12 PM
Of all the stupid... **nononono*

Let's just say some people don't have room to talk about wanting a 'war' and such when some people were in the chorus hoping for one a short while back.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EasyAce on August 12, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
Are you lumping Trump's critics on TBR with the leftists AGAIN?  That's getting pretty old.
It still seems to escape the (I hate to use a four letter word when there are ladies present) mind
of too many that Donaldus Minimus has had critics on the right for longer than he got involved
as first a candidate and then president, and that as president he has still had numerous
enough critics on the right.

About his remarks regarding Charlottesville, I agree with @endicom - he delivered an infield
hit instead of a three-run homer. And that assent comes from one of Donaldus Minimus's
critics on the right.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 06:02:59 PM
BREAKING - Charlottesville, VA helicopter crash with likely fatalities. Local fire official and Media advising crash is a Virginia State Police Helicopter- VFN102
Virginia Fire Network
20 mins ·

Charlottesville, VA: *AIRCRAFT DOWN* 43 Old Farm Rd. Helicopter down & fully involved. One or two souls possibly still aboard (VFN102)

Had not heard this. Sad. Prayers for those affected.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 06:04:14 PM
I read in one place, the Daily Mail, someone threw a rock at a car window, the driver maybe went after them. That's sad if that happened.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783914/White-nationalists-hold-torch-lit-march-UVA-campus.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 06:05:42 PM
About his remarks regarding Charlottesville, I agree with @endicom - he delivered an infield hit instead of a three-run homer. And that assent comes from one of Donaldus Minimus's critics on the right.

I was a bit confused about the strange detour into employment numbers, but other than that it was an OK reading of a prepared statement.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 06:07:56 PM
We had a tragedy a few months ago, we should have learned in that thread, to be measured in our responses. Courteous at the least.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EasyAce on August 12, 2017, 06:10:59 PM
I was a bit confused about the strange detour into employment numbers . . .
I think that's where the ball he hit got knocked down and forced him to take the infield hit. ;)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 12, 2017, 06:11:57 PM
It seems the ones chomping at the bit for CWII or Revolution II or whatever they want to call it are the hard core freeper types who are solid pro-Trump- not the Never Trumpers.

At that, they are the ones right now cheering the driver 'clearing the way' of people blocking the road and wishing he hit more and hoping this lights the CWII fuse they think neeeds to happen. (just browse over there if you have the stomach)

The Conservative Never Trumpers as you call them, have no pieces on this particular chessboard.

@AbaraXas

I saw that thread earlier, but I think they pulled it.

They were having a big old time cheering on the driver.  Someone said he hoped Pepe the Frog was behind the wheel.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 12, 2017, 06:14:11 PM
Oh no indeed. Prayers up.  :0001:

[url]http://www.newsadvance.com/news/state/state-police-helicopter-crashes-near-charlottesville-area-golf-course-witnesses/article_116a62c2-dfb4-580a-a4d3-287250f8836e.html[/url]


@Freya

That's my local newspaper, btw.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 06:19:49 PM
BREAKING - Charlottesville, VA helicopter crash with likely fatalities. Local fire official and Media advising crash is a Virginia State Police Helicopter- VFN102
Virginia Fire Network
20 mins ·

Charlottesville, VA: *AIRCRAFT DOWN* 43 Old Farm Rd. Helicopter down & fully involved. One or two souls possibly still aboard (VFN102)



State Police helicopter crashes near Charlottesville golf course

Witnesses say a Virginia State Police helicopter has crashed near 43 Old Farm Road, near the Birdwood Golf Course in Charlottesville.

Officers guarding the scene will not confirm who or what was involved, but neighbors say the helicopter hovered low over houses before going into nearby woods.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/state/state-police-helicopter-crashes-near-charlottesville-golf-course/article_0522c15c-7fa7-11e7-97c3-3b4c4f31fc5a.html



This is just to the west of the 250 Bypass just south of US 250 to Ivy (north of I-64).



Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 12, 2017, 06:22:54 PM
Is the crash related to the riot?  Story doesn't say....
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 06:23:42 PM
Update



Two killed in crash of helicopter near Charlottesville


The Virginia State Police has confirmed that at least two people were killed in the crash of a helicopter shortly before 5 p.m. on Saturday outside Charlottesville. Initial reports said the aircraft was a state police helicopter but that has not been confirmed yet.

The helicopter crashed into a wooded area near a residence on Old Farm Road.

No one on the ground was injured. The cause of the crash remains under investigation at this time. State police were on the scene shortly after the crash, along with Albemarle County police and fire units.

Witnesses say the helicopter hovered low over houses near the Birdwood Golf Course in Charlottesville before going into nearby woods.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/state/state-police-helicopter-crashes-near-charlottesville-golf-course/article_0522c15c-7fa7-11e7-97c3-3b4c4f31fc5a.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
Presser: Charlottsville is the birthplace of democracy. Who knew?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 06:32:03 PM
Owner of car now identified as .  .  .

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHD0X2aVwAAL25G.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 06:39:39 PM
Presser: Charlottsville is the birthplace of democracy. Who knew?

I thought Athens was.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
He's a long way from home.  Maumee is just SW of Toledo.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 06:48:41 PM
Owner of car now identified as .  .  .

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHD0X2aVwAAL25G.jpg)


The preps dad owned the car.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 06:50:15 PM
To the west of Charlottesville, you will find Robert E. Lee High School in Staunton, Turner Ashby High School in Bridgewater, and Wilson Memorial High School in Fishersville.

Two are named after Confederate officers.  The other is named after the US President who federalized segregation.

Which of those will be forced to change their names?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 12, 2017, 06:51:14 PM
I read in one place, the Daily Mail, someone threw a rock at a car window, the driver maybe went after them. That's sad if that happened.

[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783914/White-nationalists-hold-torch-lit-march-UVA-campus.html[/url]


Nope.  I just saw a video of the car backing away from the scene of the crime and the tinted window was intact.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 12, 2017, 06:51:28 PM
To the west of Charlottesville, you will find Robert E. Lee High School in Staunton, Turner Ashby High School in Bridgewater, and Wilson Memorial High School in Fishersville.

Two are named after Confederate officers.  The other is named after the US President who federalized segregation.

Which of those will be forced to change their names?


The Robert E Lee one.. Never mind that Wilson set back race relations (like Obama) in this country.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 06:52:00 PM
Looks like 3 dead.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 06:53:17 PM
https://everipedia.org/wiki/james-alex-fields-jr/

Look at the timestamps on whatever this is.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 06:53:24 PM

The Robert E Lee one.. Never mind that Wilson set back race relations (like Obama) in this country.

Frankly I'd just like to see a return to Coolidge conservatism and call it good.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Rivergirl on August 12, 2017, 06:59:46 PM
Seems we have people here embracing a moral equivalence between the white supremacists and the protesters.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Freya on August 12, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
Looks like 3 dead.

Reuters is reporting this too
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 12, 2017, 07:02:09 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR
Have you considered getting off crack? From that nonsensical splattering of tortured pixels above, you should.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 07:02:59 PM
https://everipedia.org/wiki/james-alex-fields-jr/

Look at the timestamps on whatever this is.

Is this guy the same as this guy?

(https://everipedia-storage.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/ProfilePics/james-alex-fields-jr__75362.png)  (https://everipedia-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/NewlinkFiles/16940320/abbfb___james-alex-fields-jr/james-arrest-caught-onnbspsnapchat.png)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 07:04:33 PM
Is this guy the same as this guy?

No, this is the guy they arrested. He even has a picture of the car on his facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/joel.notavailable

They say the car was registered in his dad's name.


Strike all that, didn't see the post above that the Joel kid just sold the car and Fields was the new owner.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 12, 2017, 07:05:18 PM
He's a long way from home.  Maumee is just SW of Toledo.
It's a day's drive.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 07:09:16 PM
No, this is the guy they arrested. He even has a picture of the car on his facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/joel.notavailable

They say the car was registered in his dad's name.


Strike all that, didn't see the post above that the Joel kid just sold the car and Fields was the new owner.

Yes.  Joel has an air-tight alibi.  He is at a wedding in Michigan.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 07:11:11 PM
Yes.  Joel has an air-tight alibi.  He is at a wedding in Michigan.

Plus he just posted on his FB w/ in the past hour.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 12, 2017, 07:14:03 PM
Seems we have people here embracing a moral equivalence between the white supremacists and the protesters.

Actually, from what's been seen at the TOS, the statements of those who actively campaigned for Trump in the elections, and from some of the posters here...

... there looks to be more support for the white supremacists than the protestors.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 07:14:34 PM
https://everipedia.org/wiki/james-alex-fields-jr/

Look at the timestamps on whatever this is.


From that link:

Quote
Tech reporter for The Hill​ Taylor Lorenz tweeted that police officers think that the person that ran people down was not malicious in intent and that the driver was scared. His car was being swarmed and some of them turned violent.

Source: https://everipedia.org/wiki/james-alex-fields-jr/#ixzz4paNJtAHf

I call BS on that. The video shows he took a three block running start at the people with plenty of places to turn off or around. This may be what his lawyer is advising him to say, but that was obviously intentional.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 07:18:23 PM
It's a day's drive.

Well aware of it. I have made that drive on Route 23 and I-64 from Columbus to Norfolk.  He covered a similar distance from Maumee to Charlottesville. It's about 12 hours, with stops for tolls, food, fuel, breaks, etc.   That's going well out of your way for an event like that, IMO.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Restored on August 12, 2017, 07:21:39 PM
I'm not being critical but the Ohio/Indiana/Illinois area is eat up with neo-Nazis. Just sayin'.
We have the Klan.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
Seems we have people here embracing a moral equivalence between the white supremacists and the protesters.

To that amorphous comment. I will point out that the white supremacists had a permit to assemble. Antifa and BLM show up to do what they do. They tried it  out on campus and had success. Now they take it to the streets.

What is not being discussed, that I have seen, is the police failure to protect the permitted and legal assembly; and they allowed an unpermitted, hence illegal march to proceed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 07:24:33 PM

From that link:

I call BS on that. The video shows he took a three block running start at the people with plenty of places to turn off or around. This may be what his lawyer is advising him to say, but that was obviously intentional.

Agreed, he wasn't running from anyone. He drove into an obvious mass of people at speed.

Charlottesville police chief says violence was "premeditated," suspect is in custody

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/896501317912240128
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 07:32:23 PM
Seems we have people here embracing a moral equivalence between the white supremacists and the protesters.

In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 12, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.
I agree. Both stupid.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 07:35:08 PM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.


What we need is Thunderdome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHU6K47qgc8
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.

Would you abridge both their free speech rights?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Restored on August 12, 2017, 07:40:18 PM
Would you abridge both their free speech rights?

I would. Both have the right to speak. Neither has the right to incite violence.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 07:41:43 PM
The mods, etc. owner, should feel free at any time to update the headline here. It looks like it is going alright now but at some point, might be helpful.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Freya on August 12, 2017, 07:45:23 PM
Time has linked the helicopter crash to the rally

http://time.com/4898351/helicopter-crashes-near-white-nationalist-rally-in-charlottesville/

Two dead from that.

Three dead from car- official

http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article166895372.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 07:52:56 PM
Would you abridge both their free speech rights?

Not at all, it's their 1st amendment right to be terminally stupid.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 07:55:35 PM
Just got finished listening to Congressman Brat on CNN.  He echoes my exact beliefs on this.  He should be the spokesman for the entire Republican Party.

He condemned the white supremacists, condemned the violence on both sides, and then asked the press where was and McAuliffe and CNN when 700 of this same "anti" crowd showed up inciting violence at one of his town halls and shut down free speech there.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 07:57:11 PM
Just got finished listening to Congressman Brat on CNN.  He echoes my exact beliefs on this.  He should be the spokesman for the entire Republican Party.

He condemned the white supremacists, condemned the violence on both sides, and then asked the press where was and McAuliffe and CNN when 700 of this same "anti" crowd showed up inciting violence at one of his town halls and shut down free speech there.

If he had any cajones, he'd called them out by name (BLM).
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 12, 2017, 07:59:17 PM
Time has linked the helicopter crash to the rally

[url]http://time.com/4898351/helicopter-crashes-near-white-nationalist-rally-in-charlottesville/[/url]

Two dead from that.

Three dead from car- official

[url]http://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article166895372.html[/url]


Quote from "Time:"

Quote
Officials say the deaths of two people in a helicopter crash near Charlottesville, Virginia, have been linked to a violent white nationalist rally earlier in the day.


"Officials say" is no longer sufficient for me.  They lie.   No reasons were given in the article for this assertion.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 12, 2017, 08:00:26 PM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.


 :amen:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 08:01:22 PM
I would. Both have the right to speak. Neither has the right to incite violence.

Tough policing would prevent things from getting out of hand.

Chief Craig in Detroit is really good with this sort of thing starting with handing out fliers with his list of rules at the start of every march or rally. He knows the locals and knows who the trouble makers are. He recognizes the outsiders and wisely assumes they're trouble makers. If they so much as jaywalk or litter they're immediately arrested and put on the bus and may be held for as much as 72 hours without charges.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 08:06:41 PM
WaPo finally IDs the assailant:


The Dodge Challenger is registered to 20-year-old James Alex Fields of Ohio, according to vehicle registration records reviewed by The Washington Post. Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Post that a man with the same name and age was booked Saturday on suspicion of second-degree murder, malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit and run. Kumer said Fields is currently being held without bail.  .  .  .

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fights-in-advance-of-saturday-protest-in-charlottesville/2017/08/12/155fb636-7f13-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mrclose on August 12, 2017, 08:13:07 PM
It still seems to escape the (I hate to use a four letter word when there are ladies present) mind
of too many that Donaldus Minimus has had critics on the right for longer than he got involved
as first a candidate and then president, and that as president he has still had numerous
enough critics on the right.

About his remarks regarding Charlottesville, I agree with @endicom - he delivered an infield
hit instead of a three-run homer.
And that assent comes from one of Donaldus Minimus's
critics on the right.

Maybe he, (Trump) will stop by here the next time for a prepared speech, written by forum members?!
That way he can please everyone! *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: NavyCanDo on August 12, 2017, 08:15:03 PM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.

Except I dont see this as a KKK/WN vs. BLM. The anti-white supremist side included many groups and people belonging to no group at all.  Yes, I am sure BLM was there as well as the other usual suspects in large protest, but so were a lot of people not part of these groups that just wont tolerate public demonstrations of KKK and White Nationalist who are bringing violence to town.

In any event this was a traggic day
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 12, 2017, 08:20:17 PM

Yes, I am sure BLM was there as well

If you look at the media pics of the protest, there sure seemed to be a significant amount of BLM signs. 

My point is, that I bet there were some non-affiliated folks there, but counter-protests of this nature doesn't just pop up out of the blue.  Someone has to be organizing, and my bets are on the BLM pukes.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 08:25:09 PM
Maybe he, (Trump) will stop by here the next time for a prepared speech, written by forum members?!
That way he can please everyone! *****rollingeyes*****

Aw Jeez, this is a no-brainer.  Any time an opportunity comes up to slam the KKK, any Republican should jump on it.  Toss in the names of a few Democrats who opposed civil rights, and then call for renaming of the Richard B Russell Senate Building.  This is always a slam dunk win for the GOP because it exposes the lie of Democrats being the champions of civil rights.

Trump blew it.  Big time.  The only narrative you will hear from this point on is how Trump didn't condemn white supremacists.

Civil rights is a winning issue for the GOP.  It is the reason this party was founded to begin with.  Republicans led the fight to end slavery.  Republicans led the fight to end lynching.  Republicans led the fight against segregation.  Republicans led the fight to pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s, and Republicans got the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.  So hell yes, a Republican President should be condemning those Klucker bastards in terms that would even make Democrats cower.

But not Trump.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 08:25:47 PM
Maybe he, (Trump) will stop by here the next time for a prepared speech, written by forum members?!

@INVAR you up to the task?
That way he can please everyone! *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mrclose on August 12, 2017, 08:33:26 PM
Aw Jeez, this is a no-brainer.  Any time an opportunity comes up to slam the KKK, any Republican should jump on it.  Toss in the names of a few Democrats who opposed civil rights, and then call for renaming of the Richard B Russell Senate Building.  This is always a slam dunk win for the GOP because it exposes the lie of Democrats being the champions of civil rights.

Trump blew it.  Big time.  The only narrative you will hear from this point on is how Trump didn't condemn white supremacists.

Civil rights is a winning issue for the GOP.  It is the reason this party was founded to begin with.  Republicans led the fight to end slavery.  Republicans led the fight to end lynching.  Republicans led the fight against segregation.  Republicans led the fight to pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s, and Republicans got the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.  So hell yes, a Republican President should be condemning those Klucker bastards in terms that would even make Democrats cower.

But not Trump.

When a fire is lit you don't pour gasoline on it to put it out.
If all of that needs to be said, it can be said later when all of the facts come out.

Obama and the dems are famous for pouring the gas when calm is called for!

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 08:33:55 PM
@ the local brewery on cell suffering from large hand syndrone.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 08:37:17 PM
@ the local brewery on cell suffering from large hand syndrone.

With a touch of EPS?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 08:46:36 PM
If you look at the media pics of the protest, there sure seemed to be a significant amount of BLM signs. 

My point is, that I bet there were some non-affiliated folks there, but counter-protests of this nature doesn't just pop up out of the blue.  Someone has to be organizing, and my bets are on the BLM pukes.


The media got what it wanted.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 09:01:20 PM
Would you abridge both their free speech rights?

Freedom of speech comes with a great amount of responsibility...of which not using your words to incite violence or death is paramount.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 12, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR

Are you lumping Trump's critics on TBR with the leftists AGAIN?  That's getting pretty old.

I think what jp is saying, and I happen to agree, is that NT as a movement (which has its origins in the political right) is a destructive force to positive change. It's standing in the way of stopping the left's relentless march forward. It gives them aid and comfort.

As an example of what the progressives are trying to stop, Pres. Trump reversed 860 burdensome business regulations which is just one part of his conservative, constitutional agenda. His goal is to bring federal regulatory excesses to a screeching halt. The left would like nothing more than to stop this president's agenda by fomenting unrest against him by any means necessary. NeverTrump gives them cover to make the claim that the country as a whole hates Trump, both the left and the right.

So, those of us who see Trump's agenda as an opportunity to tame the federal Leviathan sometimes have trouble distinguishing between the aims of leftists and those of NeverTrumpers.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Applewood on August 12, 2017, 09:04:31 PM
Tough policing would prevent things from getting out of hand.


I've been to Charlottesville.  Nice town, but uber-liberal.  I don't think they believe in tough policing.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 12, 2017, 09:11:40 PM
Edit, picture isn't transferring. Never mind.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 09:12:45 PM
I think what jp is saying, and I happen to agree, is that NT as a movement (which has its origins in the political right) is a destructive force to positive change. It's standing in the way of stopping the left's relentless march forward. It gives them aid and comfort.

That's not what he said but nice try at spinning it.

Quote
As an example of what the progressives are trying to stop, Pres. Trump reversed 860 burdensome business regulations which is just one part of his conservative, constitutional agenda. His goal is to bring federal regulatory excesses to a screeching halt. The left would like nothing more than to stop this president's agenda by fomenting unrest against him by any means necessary. NeverTrump gives them cover to make the claim that the country as a whole hates Trump, both the left and the right.

You and others here use that term "never trump" as a cover to smear and lump together anyone who has even emoted the faintest of criticism of Donald Trump.  It's a tired and hackneyed lie. 

I've never seen a bigger group of unhappy winners in my entire life.

People by and large don't care if some 860 business regulations that will never affect them in their lives have been reversed...that's minutiae that only policy wonks care about.

They want to know when their taxes are going to be lowered.  They want to know when the flood of illegals is going to stop and they want to know when they will be able to afford healthcare again and not have to go without to pay for their out of control monthly Obamacare bill.

That is what they want to see...those  big campaign boasts that were shoved in their face nightly for 15 months...the things they were told would happen starting day one of a Trump Presidency.

Quote
So, those of us who see Trump's agenda as an opportunity to tame the federal Leviathan sometimes have trouble distinguishing between the aims of leftists and those of NeverTrumpers.

Some of us are waiting for him to actually do something tangible along the lines of what he promised in his campaign...not late night twitter rants and empty threats of military action against places like Venezuela and North Korea that play into the leftist meme about nation building and war mongering.

And those same people aren't as stupid as you make them out to be with your convoluted fan dance attempt to explain away a TBR member here lumping fellow members in with hard left extremists at todays rally and blame them for the shameful events that occurred as a result.

Quit insulting their intelligence.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 12, 2017, 09:21:07 PM
Freedom of speech comes with a great amount of responsibility...of which not using your words to incite violence or death is paramount.

But avoiding hurting someone's feelings is not part of that responsibility. And as far as inciting violence, there were plenty of cameras there.  I would welcome charges for all such incitements, as well as charges for disrupting a permitted assembly.

I have not heard of a permit for anyone to march in the street.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 09:24:27 PM
But avoiding hurting someone's feelings is not part of that responsibility.

There is a difference between saying something that hurts someone's feelings and saying something that incites a riot or panic that results in injury.

You can't yell fire in a theater or talk about the bomb in your bag on an airplane.

Quote
And as far as inciting violence, there were plenty of cameras there.  I would welcome charges for all such incitements, as well as charges for disrupting a permitted assembly.

As I said earlier this whole thing could have been avoided if the SJW's weren't trying to mimic the USSR and erase people and names from History that they don't like.

Quote
I have not heard of a permit for anyone to march in the street.

Which is the reason the police were sent in.  The original marchers didn't have a permit.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 09:24:39 PM
But avoiding hurting someone's feelings is not part of that responsibility. And as far as inciting violence, there were plenty of cameras there.  I would welcome charges for all such incitements, as well as charges for disrupting a permitted assembly.

I have not heard of a permit for anyone to march in the street.

Where was Governor McAuliffe?   If he were a Republican, the press would be all over him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 12, 2017, 09:26:00 PM
Where was Governor McAuliffe?   If he were a Republican, the press would be all over him.

He has already given a presser...told them all to get out of his state..lol
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 09:28:09 PM
But avoiding hurting someone's feelings is not part of that responsibility. And as far as inciting violence, there were plenty of cameras there.  I would welcome charges for all such incitements, as well as charges for disrupting a permitted assembly.

I have not heard of a permit for anyone to march in the street.

I was thinking the same thing. Maximum penalty for inciting a riot. Especially since it involves deaths.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 12, 2017, 09:28:26 PM
He has already given a presser...told them all to get out of his state..lol

Does he realize that "his state" consists of more than just Northern Virginia and the Beltway? LOL!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 09:31:38 PM
But avoiding hurting someone's feelings is not part of that responsibility. And as far as inciting violence, there were plenty of cameras there.  I would welcome charges for all such incitements, as well as charges for disrupting a permitted assembly.

I have not heard of a permit for anyone to march in the street.

Correct.  They had a permit for their gathering, but in a specific area.

Mr. Kessler, who organized the event on Saturday and calls himself a “white advocate,” said in an interview that his goal was to “de-stigmatize white advocacy so that white people can stand up for their interests just like any other identity group.”

In the run-up to Saturday, there has been confusion over where, precisely, the Unite the Right rally will take place. City officials denied Mr. Kessler’s request to hold it in Emancipation Park, and instead granted a permit for a bigger park. On Thursday, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit on behalf of Mr. Kessler, seeking to keep the demonstration at Emancipation Park.

On Friday, a judge ruled in Mr. Kessler’s favor.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 09:34:08 PM
He has already given a presser...told them all to get out of his state..lol

Dude was born and raised in Syracuse, NY
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 12, 2017, 09:36:08 PM
Correct.  They had a permit for their gathering, but in a specific area.

Mr. Kessler, who organized the event on Saturday and calls himself a “white advocate,” said in an interview that his goal was to “de-stigmatize white advocacy so that white people can stand up for their interests just like any other identity group.”

In the run-up to Saturday, there has been confusion over where, precisely, the Unite the Right rally will take place. City officials denied Mr. Kessler’s request to hold it in Emancipation Park, and instead granted a permit for a bigger park. On Thursday, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit on behalf of Mr. Kessler, seeking to keep the demonstration at Emancipation Park.

On Friday, a judge ruled in Mr. Kessler’s favor.

Interesting. Puts some things in perspective.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 09:40:56 PM
(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/UCvR8izP.l7CCUfL88PIFg--/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9NDgwO3E9NzU7c209MQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-GB/homerun/the_independent_635/dddfb84c66f493f2bd1d3dfe12f5e807)

White nationalists, neo-Nazis and members of the 'alt-right' with body armor and combat weapons evacuate comrades who were pepper sprayed after the 'Unite the Right' rally was delcared a unlawful gathering by Virginia State Police

Actually amazing things weren't worse with tensions high and armed elements present.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 09:47:23 PM
Interesting. Puts some things in perspective.

I would like to see what made the permitted protestors decide to take to the street.

If they spin this as being all the fault of "white supremacists" I'll be for calling BS on that. But I don't know that I care enough to research it. I don't know that I have a "skin" in the game other than to lay a huge part of the divide in this country on obama.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: INVAR on August 12, 2017, 09:50:21 PM
I think what jp is saying, and I happen to agree, is that NT as a movement (which has its origins in the political right) is a destructive force to positive change. It's standing in the way of stopping the left's relentless march forward. It gives them aid and comfort.

I have heard this repeated often by you Trump Militants, usually followed with the word 'Treason" and then I get reminded what the 'penalty for treason' is.  A nice subtle threat that because I do not seig-heil your leader, I am guilty of treason and deserving of death for it.

Fine.

If you and your fellow Trump Loyalists want to try and make good on such a threat, I'll be waiting.

So, those of us who see Trump's agenda as an opportunity to tame the federal Leviathan sometimes have trouble distinguishing between the aims of leftists and those of NeverTrumpers.

Funny.  We can say the same thing about AlwaysTrump.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 12, 2017, 09:53:13 PM
@INVAR  Come on please edit your post for me..
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 12, 2017, 09:53:37 PM
If you look at the media pics of the protest, there sure seemed to be a significant amount of BLM signs. 

My point is, that I bet there were some non-affiliated folks there, but counter-protests of this nature doesn't just pop up out of the blue.  Someone has to be organizing, and my bets are on the BLM pukes.

Sure looked like the Antifa people were there and loaded for bear.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 09:57:15 PM
I would like to see what made the permitted protestors decide to take to the street.

If they spin this as being all the fault of "white supremacists" I'll be for calling BS on that. But I don't know that I care enough to research it. I don't know that I have a "skin" in the game other than to lay a huge part of the divide in this country on obama.


In reference to this post.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276030.msg1417615.html#msg1417615
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 12, 2017, 09:57:31 PM
No matter the topic of discussion,  it always seems to deteriorate into Trumpfest: AT vs. NT in a knockdown,  drag out fight about not much at all.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 09:58:12 PM
Sure looked like the Antifa people were there and loaded for bear.

They weren't the only ones. See 164.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 12, 2017, 10:00:00 PM
They weren't the only ones. See 164.

Yes, absolutely.  But the people in 164 had a permit.  Looks like the police did little to keep the peace either.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Rivergirl on August 12, 2017, 10:04:15 PM
This president, as candidate, refused to disavow support from David Duke  He insisted he had no idea who David Duke was.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 12, 2017, 10:04:51 PM
No matter the topic of discussion,  it always seems to deteriorate into Trumpfest: AT vs. NT in a knockdown,  drag out fight about not much at all.

It's tiring especially the name calling.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
I have heard this repeated often by you Trump Militants, usually followed with the word 'Treason" and then I get reminded what the 'penalty for treason' is.  A nice subtle threat that because I do not seig-heil your leader, I am guilty of treason and deserving of death for it.

Fine.

If you and your fellow idiots want to try and make good on such a threat, I'll be waiting.

Funny.  We can say the same thing about AlwaysTrump.

Taming the federal leviathan requires federalism but the constant demands for fealty to Trump are the exact opposite of federalism.

If Trump really wants to tame the federal leviathan, let it begin with diminishing the power of his own presidency. Let him call for the courts to refrain from ruling on issues not enumerated in the constitution. Let him call for the powers to be restored to the states. Let him call for senators to be returned to the control of their states.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: starstruck on August 12, 2017, 10:08:31 PM
I would like to see what made the permitted protestors decide to take to the street.

If they spin this as being all the fault of "white supremacists" I'll be for calling BS on that. But I don't know that I care enough to research it. I don't know that I have a "skin" in the game other than to lay a huge part of the divide in this country on obama.
The left(including the media wing of the democrats) determines cold weather incidents to be relegated to just weather and hot weather incidents to AWG. This incident will be treated the same way. If it was a liberal it's weather. If it's a conservative it's AWG.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 10:08:47 PM
Yes, absolutely.  But the people in 164 had a permit.  Looks like the police did little to keep the peace either.

In that photo, they're reacting to a member of their group being pepper sprayed by police.  The VA State Police declared it an unlawful gathering. None of the groups had permits to be in the streets.  I should have included the caption previously and I edited the post to reflect that.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 12, 2017, 10:12:07 PM

So, those of us who see Trump's agenda as an opportunity to tame the federal Leviathan sometimes have trouble distinguishing between the aims of leftists and those of NeverTrumpers.

Im not a never Trumper but I'm probably closer to that camp than to those to whom Trump can do no wrong. Having said that, the racial divide and violence belongs completely to our last president.  Obama did more to damage race relations in this country than any other figure I can think of.  BLM started, fluorished and was encouraged by his administration. We are reaping the whirlwind the last administration sewed.

Believe me I can blame a lot on Trump, but there is no way this can be pinned on him. In a like manner, there is no way this can be pinned on Trump critics either.  I give Trump credit for his tweet tonight. It was clearly one of his best and took just the right tone.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 10:13:35 PM
The left(including the media wing of the democrats) determines cold weather incidents to be relegated to just weather and hot weather incidents to AWG. This incident will be treated the same way. If it was a liberal it's weather. If it's a conservative it's AWG.


@starstruck

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276030.msg1417615.html#msg1417615
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 12, 2017, 10:16:54 PM
In that photo, they're reacting to a member of their group being pepper sprayed by police.  The VA State Police declared it an unlawful gathering. None of the groups had permits to be in the streets.  I should have included the caption previously and I edited the post to reflect that.

OK, did they have a permit and/or a judicial ruling that they could march or not?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 10:18:46 PM
OK, did they have a permit and/or a judicial ruling that they could march or not?

Yes - in a specific park.  See 161.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: INVAR on August 12, 2017, 10:20:01 PM
@INVAR  Come on please edit your post for me..

Edited it as much as I am willing to edit it.

If you wish to delete more, it's your place and prerogative to do so - but it will not be by my hand.


Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 12, 2017, 10:31:26 PM
Aw Jeez, this is a no-brainer.  Any time an opportunity comes up to slam the KKK, any Republican should jump on it.  Toss in the names of a few Democrats who opposed civil rights, and then call for renaming of the Richard B Russell Senate Building.  This is always a slam dunk win for the GOP because it exposes the lie of Democrats being the champions of civil rights.

Trump blew it.  Big time.  The only narrative you will hear from this point on is how Trump didn't condemn white supremacists.

Civil rights is a winning issue for the GOP.  It is the reason this party was founded to begin with.  Republicans led the fight to end slavery.  Republicans led the fight to end lynching.  Republicans led the fight against segregation.  Republicans led the fight to pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s, and Republicans got the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.  So hell yes, a Republican President should be condemning those Klucker bastards in terms that would even make Democrats cower.

But not Trump.

Yes...

Except that would demoralize the GOP base now.  For those words would be taken as an attack on themselves.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 10:34:28 PM
Let 'em frickin' march. What's the big deal were they any threat.  Why do some feel the need to oppose people they happen to disagree with. Just ignore them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 10:41:34 PM
Aw Jeez, this is a no-brainer.  Any time an opportunity comes up to slam the KKK, any Republican should jump on it.  Toss in the names of a few Democrats who opposed civil rights, and then call for renaming of the Richard B Russell Senate Building.  This is always a slam dunk win for the GOP because it exposes the lie of Democrats being the champions of civil rights.

Trump blew it.  Big time.  The only narrative you will hear from this point on is how Trump didn't condemn white supremacists.

Civil rights is a winning issue for the GOP.  It is the reason this party was founded to begin with.  Republicans led the fight to end slavery.  Republicans led the fight to end lynching.  Republicans led the fight against segregation.  Republicans led the fight to pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s, and Republicans got the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.  So hell yes, a Republican President should be condemning those Klucker bastards in terms that would even make Democrats cower.

But not Trump.


The neonazis have already seized upon it and are declaring that Trump didn't name them because Trump loves and supports them.

(http://i.imgur.com/i6GMSVY.png)

He can fix this and he needs to fix this first thing tomorrow morning. He needs to clearly name both sides but make no mistake, it was the klan side who actually killed and injured people and they deserve the bulk of the fire from Trump.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 10:45:54 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20729551_1059851650812833_1832218435593561983_n.jpg?oh=2b58f2447b3f704e2280d365a5031251&oe=5A373F0D)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 10:46:01 PM
The neonazis have already seized upon it and are declaring that Trump didn't name them because Trump loves and supports them.

David Duke is mad at him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 10:49:02 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20729551_1059851650812833_1832218435593561983_n.jpg?oh=2b58f2447b3f704e2280d365a5031251&oe=5A373F0D)

Ditto to that.  But you misspelled 'Charlottesville'.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 12, 2017, 10:52:16 PM
Ditto to that.  But you misspelled 'Charlottesville'.

I didn't write it, I stole it. :)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 11:12:13 PM
On the bright side, by next week, today's shitshow will be soooo last week.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 11:21:21 PM
On the bright side, by next week, today's shitshow will be soooo last week.


(http://twt-media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2013/03/17/who-shot-jr-640.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 12, 2017, 11:25:10 PM
([url]http://twt-media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2013/03/17/who-shot-jr-640.jpg[/url])


He did.  In the back of the head. 14 times.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:26:44 PM
Quote
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.


@Mom MD


Why would you say that? Are you so ignorant you swallow the swill the press puts out that the whites were all neo-Nazi's Kluxxers attacking the saintly Black Lives Matter and Communists with their heads?

Maybe you have been living in The People's Republic of Maryland too long,and need to get out and visit America?


 
Quote
What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.


Quote
There can be no question about that.

Quote
Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

Gee,do ya think that MAYBE that is why the talking heads and the politicians are identifying all the white people there as neo-Nazi's and Kluxxers?

I'd be willing to bet money there was a MUCH higher percentage of veterans in the crowd wanting to preserve our history than the leftist swine that want to change it to fit their communist agenda.


Quote
I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.

There is no attempt whatsoever being made to educate anyone in America anymore. You don't even have to be able to read or write to graduate from high school any more. All you have to do is put in the time,and you get a diploma. What the schools are doing and were already doing when I first started school in the 1950's is indoctrinating children,NOT educating them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:29:24 PM
Garbage v. Garbage.

Too bad they can't totally eliminate each other, and make the world a nicer place.

@catfish1957

So,you suddenly believe the media when they tell you all the white people marching to preserve the Lee statue are Kluxxers and Neo-Nazi's?

Well,HELL,WHY NOT? After all,the leftist media would never lie to manipulate public opinion,would they?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 12, 2017, 11:31:49 PM
Like it or not it was the KKK that applied for the permit. They are vermin.  Any vets or true conservatives should have avoided that demonstration like the plague and held their own some other time/place.  If you want to defend scum on either side go ahead but I refuse to.  Lie down with dogs get up with fleas.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 11:34:24 PM
Who shot Buckwheat?

(http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/929jackfm.com/files/2012/07/buckwheat-300x184.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:34:54 PM
Quote
Well put.  There are many of us southern preservationist who absolutely shudder that these pukes think they are speaking for us.

@catfish1957 Uh,huh. And YOUR plan to help preserve the south,and by extension America,is to label ever white person that the left and the racists of Black Lives Matter hate and protest against as being Nazi's and Kluxxers?

Whose side did you say you are on,again?


Quote
Like I said in an earlier post, it would suit me fine if all the KKK, and the BLM turds simultaneously evaporated off the earth at once.

And,other than the media,the college alleged "intellectual" airheads,and the BLM crowd,who we all know would never lie to us,WHO exactly identified all those white marchers as Kluxxers?

They certainly didn't identify THEMSELVES as being Kluxxers or Nazi's.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 11:35:32 PM
([url]http://twt-media.washtimes.com/media/community/viewpoint/entry/2013/03/17/who-shot-jr-640.jpg[/url])


Kristin, the sister of Sue Ellen - a character so minor, the reveal was the biggest disappointment in TV plot writing.  Then, they outdid themselves with the 'dream season.'
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 12, 2017, 11:35:37 PM
Who shot Buckwheat?

([url]http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/929jackfm.com/files/2012/07/buckwheat-300x184.jpg[/url])


And Texxon is there.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:36:28 PM
Skokie case decided in favor of KKK's free speech rights, by the US Supreme Court.

The KKK was historically affiliated with the democrat party, was obviously racist and anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, etc.

It is a scurrilous smear, to falsely associate them with this President, or with Republicans now, or ever. It is, ironically, what democrats do.

@truth_seeker

Thank you!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 12, 2017, 11:39:27 PM
Like it or not it was the KKK that applied for the permit. They are vermin.  Any vets or true conservatives should have avoided that demonstration like the plague and held their own some other time/place.  If you want to defend scum on either side go ahead but I refuse to.  Lie down with dogs get up with fleas.

Klan Republic is in denial and claiming it was a Soros false flag.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 12, 2017, 11:39:50 PM
And Texxon is there.

(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53226a32e4b0a11842c6876f/5505b236e4b052040efac1b2/5505b239e4b0f9921cd457bc/1426436665196/1983-03-19-18.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 12, 2017, 11:39:59 PM
@catfish1957

So,you suddenly believe the media when they tell you all the white people marching to preserve the Lee statue are Kluxxers and Neo-Nazi's?

Well,HELL,WHY NOT? After all,the leftist media would never lie to manipulate public opinion,would they?


This has been going on for a few weeks.  It didn't start today.



The KKK rally in Charlottesville was outnumbered by counterprotesters


By Ralph Ellis, CNN     |     Updated 3:14 AM ET, Mon July 10, 2017


A Ku Klux Klan rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, drew about 50 Klan members and supporters Saturday -- and several hundred counterprotesters, authorities said.
Members of the North Carolina-based Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan -- some wearing Klan robes and carrying Confederate flags -- arrived in midday to protest the city's plan to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a park, one of several steps the city is taking to reduce its number of Confederate monuments.

Some Klansmen had said they would carry loaded firearms -- allowable under Virginia's open-carry law.

They were confronted by shouting counterprotesters as tensions ratcheted up and a large group of law enforcement officers, including members of the state police, set up police lines.
Police escorted the Klansmen through the shouting crowds to reach their designated spot for a demonstration: Justice Park, which until recently had been named after Confederate hero Gen. Stonewall Jackson.
About 1,000 counterprotesters were there, said city spokeswoman Miriam Dickler.  .  .  .

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/08/us/kkk-rally-charlottesville-statues/index.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: corbe on August 12, 2017, 11:43:42 PM
Kristin, the sister of Sue Ellen - a character so minor, the reveal was the biggest disappointment in TV plot writing.  Then, they outdid themselves with the 'dream season.'

   I liked the @sneakypete theory, you just know that guy is capable and he was in Texas at that time, or so I've heard.
   I've heard he played in Oswald's Band, before Rafael got the gig.

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/5e/Osbanj2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081116202319)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 12, 2017, 11:45:38 PM
Klan Republic is in denial and claiming it was a Soros false flag.

Of course they are.  They don't want the blame either. In the end this protest has been identified with the KKK for a number of weeks, and whoever marched with them is going to be painted with that brush.  Any true patriots who wanted to demonstrate should have sought their own event.  And no one is saying the KKK is a right wing organization @sneakypete   I think we all remember senator "sheets" Byrd and which side of the aisle he sat on.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 12, 2017, 11:53:23 PM
Quote from "Time:"

"Officials say" is no longer sufficient for me.  They lie.   No reasons were given in the article for this assertion.
Just flying over an event on patrol is not enough of a link to attribute a crash that may have resulted from any number of things to the group holding the rally. Without a cause of the crash that tracks back to someone affiliated taking action to make the crash happen, the link is only coincidental. The crash could have resulted from aerial traffic surveys or vehicle pursuit activity and they would not have called it 'linked to traffic' or the result of a high speed chase.

Someone is fishing for a higher body count without the cause of the crash being known unless they have evidence that actions taken by people on the ground caused the crash.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:54:42 PM
Realizing political realities is not necessarily racist.

@dfwgator

When communists rule the media and the political arena,telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

I'd be willing to bet that 99 percent of the counter protesters still think the War of Northern Aggression was about eliminating slavery.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:56:35 PM
Exactly, the media saw this as a good opportunity to link the White Supremacist marchers with Trump.  That's the only reason they were interested in covering it.

@dfwgator

Trump is nothing but a minor player. The core reason they did this is it gave them yet one more excuse to label ALL whites who don't suck up to the left as racist neo-Nazi's.

And shockingly to me,even most of the people here seem to be buying into it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 12, 2017, 11:57:43 PM
Meanwhile more people protest at Planned Parenthood offices everyday, and the media never mentions them.

@dfwgator

Those protests run counter to their agenda,so they are going to ignore them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:00:34 AM
([url]http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/001/120/171/64de9eda2c877101903287672efebc3f.gif[/url])


Can someone tell me why so many of the college-age protest crowd always carries backpacks to these things? Is it because they want a change of clothes to escape if someone rips the red bandanas off their faces?

Seems like it's ALWAYS the leftists wearing backpacks at these things,even when they are the ones marching.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:03:32 AM
I grew up less than 30 miles from here.  Robert E. Lee has always been a hero to me.  And now these white-supremacist Klucker assholes have ruined any chance of keeping these monuments up throughout the Commonwealth.

@Hoodat

You're kidding,right?

You seriously believe the press reports that all those protesters were kluxxers and nazi's?

REALLY?

Why?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 13, 2017, 12:04:15 AM
Of course they are.  They don't want the blame either. In the end this protest has been identified with the KKK for a number of weeks, and whoever marched with them is going to be painted with that brush.  Any true patriots who wanted to demonstrate should have sought their own event.  And no one is saying the KKK is a right wing organization @sneakypete   I think we all remember senator "sheets" Byrd and which side of the aisle he sat on.

The problem here is that these alt right neonazis ARE Trump supporters. The fact that they're traditionally democrat doesn't mean squat especially since Trump is only marginally republican in the first place.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:05:52 AM
Quite honestly a lot of the blame needs to be put at the feet of the Hard Left SJW types who insist on trying to erase history.

@txradioguy

Honestly,there is no one else that can be blamed for it,with the exception of their political masters,who ARE the hard left leadership.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 13, 2017, 12:06:49 AM
The problem here is that these alt right neonazis ARE Trump supporters. The fact that they're traditionally democrat doesn't mean squat especially since Trump is only marginally republican in the first place.

Trump and his supporters need to denounce these scum loudly and long.  No one can be blamed if repugnant people support them, but they can be blamed if they do not disavow that support.  And we have Trump supporters here trying to defend their actions. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: INVAR on August 13, 2017, 12:07:26 AM
Why would you say that? Are you so ignorant you swallow the swill the press puts out that the whites were all neo-Nazi's Kluxxers attacking the saintly Black Lives Matter and Communists with their heads?
...Gee,do ya think that MAYBE that is why the talking heads and the politicians are identifying all the white people there as neo-Nazi's and Kluxxers?

I'd be willing to bet money there was a MUCH higher percentage of veterans in the crowd wanting to preserve our history than the leftist swine that want to change it to fit their communist agenda.

I would submit your supposition is probably more correct than not.

I saw some 3%ers out there and they are not Klansmen. They are patriots, most former .mil. 

There is no attempt whatsoever being made to educate anyone in America anymore. You don't even have to be able to read or write to graduate from high school any more. All you have to do is put in the time,and you get a diploma. What the schools are doing and were already doing when I first started school in the 1950's is indoctrinating children,NOT educating them.

Cannot disagree with a single syllable there.  Amen.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:08:07 AM
Driver identified as Joel Vangheluwe - liberal.

@Hoodat

Interesting. I just read a national media board about this,and everybody there is claiming the murderer,and that IS what he is,was a white racist.

BTW,once again,there is NOTHING "liberal" about the left,so we need to stop calling them the positive name they want to be identified with.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 12:08:20 AM
And,other than the media,the college alleged "intellectual" airheads,and the BLM crowd,who we all know would never lie to us,WHO exactly identified all those white marchers as Kluxxers?

They certainly didn't identify THEMSELVES as being Kluxxers or Nazi's.


ummmmm

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHC1KDyUMAAsKi2.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHC0_MtXYAAzMHN.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHCYo-nXsAUYZM7.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHEPjMAV0AAZdxj.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHBLLcAXkAIJcRj.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGOJeyAXkAQ5F3x.jpg)

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:10:17 AM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR

@jpsb

Even if they weren't consciously pushing for a war,and they are for the most part unconscious,that is what they are going to get if they keep pushing.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:11:29 AM
   That is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen you type @jpsb   
   To insinuate that NT'ers here are aligned with the 'progressive left' in any manner, war or no war, just because we didn't vote for 'your' guy, is just absurd, but carry on.

@corbe @jpsb

Useful fools,useful tools.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 13, 2017, 12:11:55 AM
I would submit your supposition is probably more correct than not.

I saw some 3%ers out there and they are not Klansmen. They are patriots, most former .mil. 


Most conservatives and patriots would agree with the protest and want to preserve our history.  But it is not appropriate to do it at an event sponsored/permitted by the Klan.  We need to hold our own event and make every effort to exclude the alt right crowd.  I know they are not right wing, but we have lost the war of words over what they are called.  We need to be sure we denounce them as swiftly and thoroughly as we do BLM, not attend events with them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:12:33 AM
The problem here is that these alt right neonazis ARE Trump supporters.

A good deal of the ones looking like extras from American History X are separatists and don't want anything to do with those in 'gubmint.'
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 12:12:43 AM
I'm not sure if it is every Thursday morning, 2 Thursday mornings, Richard Spencer was on Jesse Lee Peterson's show; Spencer was indeed articulate and didn't say anything ugly. I think he was there today in Va.  Someone can't be marching with people who look like the above in Abaraxas' post.  If someone is not saying anything overly offensive or objectionable, I suppose one can listen to them.  It make me think of what Larry Elder would do. I'm not sure if Peterson caught any flack for that. I'm pretty indifferent, not knowing a lot about Spencer.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:13:16 AM
BREAKING - Charlottesville, VA helicopter crash with likely fatalities. Local fire official and Media advising crash is a Virginia State Police Helicopter- VFN102
Virginia Fire Network
20 mins ·

Charlottesville, VA: *AIRCRAFT DOWN* 43 Old Farm Rd. Helicopter down & fully involved. One or two souls possibly still aboard (VFN102)

@don-o

And the news reports that it was shot down by Neo-Nazi Kluxxers in a Camaro with a painting of Trump on the hood will start in 5....4.....3.....2.....1.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 12:14:24 AM
@dfwgator

Trump is nothing but a minor player. The core reason they did this is it gave them yet one more excuse to label ALL whites who don't suck up to the left as racist neo-Nazi's.

And shockingly to me,even most of the people here seem to be buying into it.

Conspicuously absent from your most recent version of events is the protestor who defends  Lee's legacy while at the same time condemns the white supremacists who have stolen the valor of the Confederate battle flag by turning it into a symbol of racism while hiding their faces like a bunch of cowards.

To hell with these racist scumbags on both sides.  We could have saved Lee's legacy.  But after today, there is no way possible of doing so, because the Lee name is now associated in blood with these schmucks.

Yet all you care about is propping up Trump.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 13, 2017, 12:14:46 AM
   That is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever seen you type @jpsb   
   To insinuate that NT'ers here are aligned with the 'progressive left' in any manner, war or no war, just because we didn't vote for 'your' guy, is just absurd, but carry on.

Trump is more aligned with the progressive left than NTers.  Conservatives and those who don't support Trump do so because he is too far left, not too far right.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Mom MD on August 13, 2017, 12:15:50 AM
 
Conspicuously absent from your most recent version of events is the protestor who defends  Lee's legacy while at the same time condemns the white supremacists who have stolen the valor of the Confederate battle flag by turning it into a symbol of racism while hiding their faces like a bunch of cowards.

To hell with these racist scumbags on both sides.  We could have saved Lee's legacy.  But after today, there is no way possible of doing so, because the Lee name is now associated in blood with these schmucks.

Yet all you care about is propping up Trump.


:amen:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:17:31 AM
Presser: Charlottsville is the birthplace of democracy. Who knew?

@don-o

It's not.  I believe that "honor" goes to Moscow.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 13, 2017, 12:17:36 AM
Conspicuously absent from your most recent version of events is the protestor who defends  Lee's legacy while at the same time condemns the white supremacists who have stolen the valor of the Confederate battle flag by turning it into a symbol of racism while hiding their faces like a bunch of cowards.

To hell with these racist scumbags on both sides.  We could have saved Lee's legacy.  But after today, there is no way possible of doing so, because the Lee name is now associated in blood with these schmucks.

Yet all you care about is propping up Trump.

And the worst part is, they're too stupid or cowardly to admit that Trump feels the same about the confederate battle flag and monuments as Barrack Obama or Nancy Pelosi.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 12:18:41 AM
Most conservatives and patriots would agree with the protest and want to preserve our history.  But it is not appropriate to do it at an event sponsored/permitted by the Klan.  We need to hold our own event and make every effort to exclude the alt right crowd.  I know they are not right wing, but we have lost the war of words over what they are called.  We need to be sure we denounce them as swiftly and thoroughly as we do BLM, not attend events with them.


Ditto to the umpteenth power!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:19:36 AM
I thought Athens was.

@Hoodat

I think Athens was just the first one we know about. There is no such thing as a successful democracy,and never has been.

Which is why the Founding Fathers took care to make sure America  wouldn't be a democracy. A wise move the career criminals we call politicians are still working hard at reversing on a daily basis.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: GtHawk on August 13, 2017, 12:21:06 AM
@don-o

And the news reports that it was shot down by Neo-Nazi Kluxxers in a Camaro with a painting of Trump on the hood will start in 5....4.....3.....2.....1.
Sorry, hours ago there was FR headcase claiming it was shot down by a BLM sniper brought back from Afghanistan. To the credit of a semblance of sanity on the site, he was roundly ridiculed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:22:25 AM
In my eyes, not a lick of difference between KKK and BLM.  Both scum that I wish would evaporate off the face of the earth.

@catfish1957

Yeah,what you said!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:24:55 AM
Would you abridge both their free speech rights?

@catfish1957  @don-o

I can't speak for catfhis1957,but I certainly wouldn't. If I did,I would be no better than  them. This is America,and EVERYBODY is supposed to have the right to speak their minds without fear  of government retribution.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:26:37 AM
If he had any cajones, he'd called them out by name (BLM).

@catfish1957

Maybe he did,and the media edited his comments for PC reasons?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:29:08 AM
Quote
Yes, I am sure BLM was there as well as the other usual suspects in large protest, but so were a lot of people not part of these groups that just wont tolerate public demonstrations of KKK and White Nationalist who are bringing violence to town.



@NavyCanDo

Uhhh,who were the aggressors,the protesters,or the communist agitators?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:32:11 AM
Where was Governor McAuliffe?   If he were a Republican, the press would be all over him.

@dfwgator

Careful how you talk about our next president!

You don't really want you name on a list,do you?

BTW,his son was recently arrested with a crowd of anarchists that were rioting on the left coast. He was all dressed in black,and wearing a black handkerchief on his face while creating mischief,and someone pulled his handkerchief down  right before some news photographer took a photo.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:38:28 AM
([url]https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/UCvR8izP.l7CCUfL88PIFg--/YXBwaWQ9eW15O3c9NDgwO3E9NzU7c209MQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-GB/homerun/the_independent_635/dddfb84c66f493f2bd1d3dfe12f5e807[/url])

White nationalists, neo-Nazis and members of the 'alt-right' with body armor and combat weapons evacuate comrades who were pepper sprayed after the 'Unite the Right' rally was delcared a unlawful gathering by Virginia State Police




@edpc


And you KNOW the men in that photo were White Nationalists and Neo-Nazi's HOW?

Maybe it was the American flag sewn on the front of the vest,next to the Confederate Flag.

Ever heard of the "letters of Confederation"? If not,you might want to look them up.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 12:42:41 AM
@Hoodat

You're kidding,right?

You seriously believe the press reports that all those protesters were kluxxers and nazi's?

REALLY?

Why?
I have been playing catch-up, but you have touched on a few things I'd like to sum up. First, if the media see one cross, one hood, or even a Confederate Battle Flag, they'll whip out the KKK. If they see one guy with a swastika, the whole gathering will be painted as neo-Nazis. It is how the media roll. Unfortunately, the presentation in the future will be that anyone trying to preserve the history of those who risked all they had to fight for their home States autonomy and the Confederacy, independent of the Union, will be painted as neoNazis or Klansmen without any regard to their background or motives.
Big Brother has spoken, and the "counter-protests" were indeed likely well-organized disruptive events, perhaps tipped off by people in government who sympathize, for whatever reason, with the BLM and Antifa types. Add in the official disruption and confusion about where the permit for protests was to be sited, and some earnest people walked into a set-up flat footed. The media have their optics, the fool who ran down people in the street has guaranteed that it will be far more difficult to protest the destruction of monuments, the renaming of buildings, streets, and the ongoing erasure of a significant part of this country's history from public view.
With the fables being spooned into little brains about the entire conflict, the concept of rebelling against Federal usurpation and mistreatment will be crushed as an historical reality.
That is what must be fought against, and those who one would expect to fight against the muzzling of voices from the past are instead fighting to shut any opposition up, to make them nonpersons in an historical sense. Typical of Socialist Orwellianism, the Antifa and BLM people are actually fighting for Fascist control of information, about as totalitarian as it gets. Now their allies in the media have an event to point to and examples to wave of blood in the streets, likely none of which would have happened if they had let the protesters have their say and booked the park for the week after.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:45:20 AM
Quote
Like it or not it was the KKK that applied for the permit.

Where did you get that info from? This is the first time I have heard that. The reports I read earlier didn't identify the permit holder as a Kluxxer.


Quote
They are vermin.

Is that any way to talk about undercover FBI agents?

Show a little respect for your masters!


Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 12:46:07 AM


Is that any way to talk about undercover FBI agents?

 :silly:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:51:00 AM
I would submit your supposition is probably more correct than not.
Quote
I saw some 3%ers out there and they are not Klansmen. They are patriots, most former .mil.


Who/what are the 3 percenters? Never heard of them before.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:51:50 AM
And you KNOW the men in that photo were White Nationalists and Neo-Nazi's HOW?

Maybe it was the American flag sewn on the front of the vest,next to the Confederate Flag.

Ever heard of the "letters of Confederation"? If not,you might want to look them up.

@sneakypete

The words in the post are in italics because it's the caption that accompanied the photo.  Take it up with AP.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 12:54:45 AM
Daily Mail shows suspect in march; one can ignore their sensationalizing which they are doing, it's their business.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4785732/Man-charged-murder-plowing-car-protesters.html

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/13/05/433642FA00000578-4785732-image-a-39_1502597598840.jpg)
With glasses on left.  What he did seems like something a 20 year old might do, lack of self-control, possibly let his emotions get the best of him. Of course, we don't know the full story yet, I just speculate on this.

Quote
([url]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/13/02/4335E57A00000578-4785732-image-a-55_1502589355480.jpg[/url])([url]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/13/02/4335E57300000578-4785732-image-m-54_1502589349982.jpg[/url])
The day was met with more tragedy, when a Virginia State Police helicopter, carrying Lieutenant H Jay Cullen (left), 48, and Trooper-Pilot Berke M.M. Bates. Police confirmed that they both died at the scene

Read more: [url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4785732/Man-charged-murder-plowing-car-protesters.html#ixzz4pbkLWMsv[/url]
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My condolences to these troopers' families and friends.

Charlottesville will be sued if it is all true and I suspect that it is, the police stood down.

Kyle Bristow may have been the organizer from what I've heard, an alt-right activist.  He's the one who might have had a permit. The "Unite the Right" people did have a permit from what I understand.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 12:57:36 AM

My condolences to these troopers' families and friends.


Agreed. Prayers up for their families and friends.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:02:03 AM
@INVAR @Mom MD

Quote
Most conservatives and patriots would agree with the protest and want to preserve our history.  But it is not appropriate to do it at an event sponsored/permitted by the Klan.

I can't argue with that on one level,but on another level,why are we allowing the media and the lef (repeating myself here) define who we can associate with? ESPECIALLY given that they have the habit of identifying pretty much every random white guy you see as a Nazi,a Kluxxer,or both?

Don't get me wrong,I have no problem at all with the permit holder saying "you can stay,but you gotta go" to anyone,but we MUST stop  allowing the media to pimp us out.


 
Quote
We need to hold our own event and make every effort to exclude the alt right crowd.


There is nothing preventing protest organizers from doing this now,but the lack of will. Wouldn't even be hard to do. Pretty much all a protest organizer would have to do would be to put up posters and notify the media that Swastikas and White sheets and hoods as articles of clothing would NOT be allowed,and then then sell tickets  stating the same. Charge a buck apiece for the tickets,and donate all money over expenses to the national debt. If you sell someone a ticket and they accept,they are agreeing to your terms and you have a right to eject them if they violate the agreement.




Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:10:37 AM
Quote
Conspicuously absent from your most recent version of events is the protestor who defends  Lee's legacy while at the same time condemns the white supremacists who have stolen the valor of the Confederate battle flag by turning it into a symbol of racism while hiding their faces like a bunch of cowards.

@Hoodat

Say WHUT?????? You mean to tell me those retards with single-digit IQ's actually have the power to steal all that valor and symbols?

Hoodathunkit?

Hey! MAYBE it was the media that have kept saying that over and over,and now you believe it to be true?


Quote
To hell with these racist scumbags on both sides.  We could have saved Lee's legacy.  But after today, there is no way possible of doing so, because the Lee name is now associated in blood with these schmucks.

Not one chance in hell. How old are you,anyhow,3? Lee's legacy has been dragged through the mud ever since the day he resigned from Mr.Lincoln's Army and came home to lead the Army of Virginia. I have heard his described as a "traitor and rebel" my whole damn life.

In case nobody has ever splained this to you,the winners get to write the history books.


Quote
Yet all you care about is propping up Trump.

That's the ticket,Bubba! Bring Trump into it because you have nothing else.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:14:43 AM
And the worst part is, they're too stupid or cowardly to admit that Trump feels the same about the confederate battle flag and monuments as Barrack Obama or Nancy Pelosi.

@Cripplecreek

WHY are you people continuing to get distracted by outside forces? Near as I can tell,Trump,Pelosi,and Obomber were not even there.

FOCUS,PEOPLE,FOCUS!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:17:47 AM
I have been playing catch-up, but you have touched on a few things I'd like to sum up. First, if the media see one cross, one hood, or even a Confederate Battle Flag, they'll whip out the KKK. If they see one guy with a swastika, the whole gathering will be painted as neo-Nazis. It is how the media roll. Unfortunately, the presentation in the future will be that anyone trying to preserve the history of those who risked all they had to fight for their home States autonomy and the Confederacy, independent of the Union, will be painted as neoNazis or Klansmen without any regard to their background or motives.
Big Brother has spoken, and the "counter-protests" were indeed likely well-organized disruptive events, perhaps tipped off by people in government who sympathize, for whatever reason, with the BLM and Antifa types. Add in the official disruption and confusion about where the permit for protests was to be sited, and some earnest people walked into a set-up flat footed. The media have their optics, the fool who ran down people in the street has guaranteed that it will be far more difficult to protest the destruction of monuments, the renaming of buildings, streets, and the ongoing erasure of a significant part of this country's history from public view.
With the fables being spooned into little brains about the entire conflict, the concept of rebelling against Federal usurpation and mistreatment will be crushed as an historical reality.
That is what must be fought against, and those who one would expect to fight against the muzzling of voices from the past are instead fighting to shut any opposition up, to make them nonpersons in an historical sense. Typical of Socialist Orwellianism, the Antifa and BLM people are actually fighting for Fascist control of information, about as totalitarian as it gets. Now their allies in the media have an event to point to and examples to wave of blood in the streets, likely none of which would have happened if they had let the protesters have their say and booked the park for the week after.

@Smokin Joe

WELL STATED!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:22:50 AM
Daily Mail shows suspect in march; one can ignore their sensationalizing which they are doing, it's their business.

[url]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4785732/Man-charged-murder-plowing-car-protesters.html[/url]

([url]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/13/05/433642FA00000578-4785732-image-a-39_1502597598840.jpg[/url])
With glasses on left.  What he did seems like something a 20 year old might do, lack of self-control, possibly let his emotions get the best of him. Of course, we don't know the full story yet, I just speculate on this.
My condolences to these troopers' families and friends.

Charlottesville will be sued if it is all true and I suspect that it is, the police stood down.

Kyle Bristow may have been the organizer from what I've heard, an alt-right activist.  He's the one who might have had a permit. The "Unite the Right" people did have a permit from what I understand.


@TomSea

I am just GUESSING the helicopter did what helicopters are prone to do,and just fell out of the sky for mechanical reasons. I once had a helicopter pilot in the army correct me when I said helicopters fly. He said "They don't fly. What they do is beat the air into submission".

BUT.....,if somebody DID shoot it down or cause it to crash in some way,I hope those people are caught,convicted, and quickly put to death.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: INVAR on August 13, 2017, 01:33:18 AM
Who/what are the 3 percenters? Never heard of them before.

The name is taken from the historical fact of the Revolutionary war, that only 3% of the existing population took an active role in our Independence.  Many are Militia and a good number are ex-mil.  Not affiliated directly with Oathkeepers, but many Oathkeepers also identify as 3 Percenters.

Usually you can find patches with roman numeral 3 inside the stars of a Betsy Ross flag or the stars and bars.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 05:59:53 AM
Trump and his supporters need to denounce these scum loudly and long.  No one can be blamed if repugnant people support them, but they can be blamed if they do not disavow that support.  And we have Trump supporters here trying to defend their actions.

They had many, MANY chances to do so during the 2016 primaries and general election.  (When David Duke endorsed Trump, when the Klan newspaper endorsed Trump, when alt-right leaders robocalled for him with explicitly white nationalist calls, etc, etc, etc).

How many times does he have to not denounce these things... before one understands that he doesn't disapprove of this type of this.

Heck, he's got Bannon at the White House... the guy who made Breitbart 'home of the alt-right' and employed Milo Yiannopoulos.  I mean, for Pete's sake... look at it!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EC on August 13, 2017, 06:38:56 AM
They had many, MANY chances to do so during the 2016 primaries and general election.  (When David Duke endorsed Trump, when the Klan newspaper endorsed Trump, when alt-right leaders robocalled for him with explicitly white nationalist calls, etc, etc, etc).

How many times does he have to not denounce these things... before one understands that he doesn't disapprove of this type of this.

First - my opinion is that Trump is about as racist as a lump of limestone. In other words, not in the slightest - he gives damn one about the green, not the colour or religion of hand that's holding it.

At the same time, I can sort of see a reasoning behind being slow to denounce (he DID denounce Duke during the primaries  in the end, just way too slowly) above and beyond the "any publicity is good publicity" mindset he has. The left have their shock troops, their emminently disposable useful idiots. Why shouldn't the right? It's twisted, but it's a possible. Bannon is certainly capable of being that cynical.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 13, 2017, 07:07:37 AM
@catfish1957

So,you suddenly believe the media when they tell you all the white people marching to preserve the Lee statue are Kluxxers and Neo-Nazi's?

Well,HELL,WHY NOT? After all,the leftist media would never lie to manipulate public opinion,would they?

@sneakypete

I am guessing you didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge the many pics of the idiots in robes at this rally.  I stand 100% behind every post in this thread.  I am a southern preservationist for any reasons (including my tagline), and absolutely detest the Klan and their ilk for hijacking the CBF, and creating the backlash toward icons of southern heritage.

Didn't expect an apology in any case.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 13, 2017, 07:12:57 AM
@catfish1957 Uh,huh. And YOUR plan to help preserve the south,and by extension America,is to label ever white person that the left and the racists of Black Lives Matter hate and protest against as being Nazi's and Kluxxers?

Whose side did you say you are on,again?


And,other than the media,the college alleged "intellectual" airheads,and the BLM crowd,who we all know would never lie to us,WHO exactly identified all those white marchers as Kluxxers?

They certainly didn't identify THEMSELVES as being Kluxxers or Nazi's.

@sneakypete

Guess those hooded guys were Boy Scouts huh?

Misplaced meltdowns are a "b" aren't they?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EC on August 13, 2017, 07:19:37 AM
@sneakypete

I am guessing you didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge the many pics of the idiots in robes at this rally.  I stand 100% behind every post in this thread.  I am a southern preservationist for any reasons (including my tagline), and absolutely detest the Klan and their ilk for hijacking the CBF, and creating the backlash toward icons of southern heritage.

Didn't expect an apology in any case.

Pete shoots first and asks questions later - if he can remember or be bothered to.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Rivergirl on August 13, 2017, 07:23:04 AM
Some might consider the Unite the Right riot.......nothing at all.
Pity.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 13, 2017, 07:32:46 AM
They had many, MANY chances to do so during the 2016 primaries and general election.  (When David Duke endorsed Trump, when the Klan newspaper endorsed Trump, when alt-right leaders robocalled for him with explicitly white nationalist calls, etc, etc, etc).

How many times does he have to not denounce these things... before one understands that he doesn't disapprove of this type of this.

Heck, he's got Bannon at the White House... the guy who made Breitbart 'home of the alt-right' and employed Milo Yiannopoulos.  I mean, for Pete's sake... look at it!

David Duke was at the rally yesterday and said he was there in part to support Trump.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 07:45:31 AM
First - my opinion is that Trump is about as racist as a lump of limestone. In other words, not in the slightest - he gives damn one about the green, not the colour or religion of hand that's holding it.

That was apparent in his association with Don King and defense of Mike Tyson.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 13, 2017, 07:59:56 AM
FWIW, via Facebook:
Quote
Rita Chalfant
8 mins ·

Someone that was there: outa orda.

"OK, I'm sure you've all been watching the news about Charlottesville. Here is MY account. Keep in mind, I'm ONE person with two eyes so my view/scope is limited.

Before I go on - this was NOT meant to be a white power rally. I NEVER would have gone. And even though white supremacy groups were (sadly) present, it was as much an anarchist/Antifa event as it was a white supremacist group. Both groups were EQUALLY problematic, so when you hear the news that this was a white nationalist nightmare - that is only HALF the story. And that is really the only half that the lying media wants you to know.

Anyway... I arrived at the rally about 7:30am. I came with no picket signs, was not carrying a flag, and wore neutral, unidentifiable clothing. Throughout the event, I did not chant or even speak much.

It was not scheduled to start until noon. I parked at a distance, and took a taxi to about a block of the event. I then walked past another park, where BLM was already there because I heard loud chanting of "No Justice, No Peace". There were Antifa milling about here and there around that second park.

The 'right' group had a permit for Emancipation Park, and that is where most of this had occurred. I was one of the first few people inside the park. There might have been about 10 people inside, and about the same out on the street. The numbers quickly grew. The first 'group' that I saw come in was a militia group, armed to the kilt with automatic rifles, hip pistols, etc. The were escorted in by police. They were not associated with any group that I could tell. They assembled themselves along the side walk facing the street around the park. They did not interact with anyone. What happened to them as the day went on, I have no idea because the crowd grew so unruly.

There were many racist white groups inside the park eventually. Not everyone belonged to those groups, but they organized mostly by different groups. The way that the police had the park set up was ALMOST sufficient for safety. The park was divided in two sections, with a metal barrier 'buffer zone' going down the middle and in front of the half where the groups were all congregated. I stayed on the other side until the last few minutes before the state of emergency was called. Seeing the racist groups, I didn't want to be associated with them. But of course, that doesn't matter to the Antifa group since to them, we are all racist. I met a very nice woman who was there with her husband and 16 year old son. She knew the person who planned the event, and she voiced to me that she didn't like the hate groups who were pleasant, so we both stayed on the other side. Of course, this side was open to anyone and everyone coming in.

Two white BLM ignorant bitches paraded back and forth in front of me and this woman, very loudly chanting, and then one took out a cow bell and proceeded to look at us directly and continue clanging it directly beside our ears. We each asked them to stop. When she didn't, I grab it and pushed it away from her. In a WELL COORDINATED response, she began yelling at the top of her lungs "assault! assault! assault" until some of her cronnies came over with cameras and took my picture for their little Antifa photo album I guess.

There were two watch groups present. The first were the ACLU watchers, and the other was some lawyer guild watchers. The ladies with the cow bell went over to the ACLU and was complaining about my injuring her. The ACLU told her to report it to the police. She walked over to the police, and started complaining that I scratched her (I don't even have fingernails!). The cop said "I saw it all and it never happened". The BLM honey stomped off in defeat. I never saw them again.

By this time, a large group of clergy assembled directly facing the park, singing loudly 'this little light of mine', praying loudly. Another group started singing Christian songs actually in the park.

So by now, the street in front of the park began to fill with mostly Antifa. Chants from their side got the nationalists started, and their chant was "You will not replace us".

Now, three very lovely ladies approached the bench that I was standing on. As one got closer, she vomitted at my feet, and then took a step and vomitted again. I offered her water, and a clean rag and a mint. Her shirt had splatter marks on her. The vomitting lady told me 'they', pointing to our crowd, had thrown URINE on her. As we stood there talking, the other lady said it hit her too, but she thought it came from the Antifa group in the street. As we talked, we saw another bottle of urine get hurled from the street into the park, so it was indeed Antifa throwing urine.

The next thing that I remember seeing were bottles being tossed from the street into the side of the park that I was in. Immediately after that, the air began to sting my eyes - Antifa was now throwing tear gas canisters into the crowd. The nationalist group, by now, in small groups, was exiting the side of the park they were on, and marching down the street to my side of the park, and then back. During this time, I saw many on our side coming back from the street after being hit with pepper spray, and what they were calling 'bear spray'. I could see down into the street, and there were fights happening.

As more and more gas cans landed on my side of the park, I moved close to the police area, right up against the barricade. I had to cover my face because the air was so thick with the gas burning my lungs and eyes. With a can landing close by the police, I heard them say, they are throwing gas cans (I really don't think they were aware until now), let's go! So the police left their buffer area. I did not see them move into the street to stop Antifa who were doing all of the chemical attacks.

Then the barriers between the sections of the park went down, and the police formed a line behind us, and started telling us that this was now an unlawful assembly, and started moving the group toward the front of the park, towards the street, where Antifa was waiting. We tried telling them that we were not safe with what they were doing, but still they continued to threaten us with arrest and continued pushing us out into the Antifa crowd.

In the meantime, I started seeing many of the nationalist group and others on the right coming in with their eyes and faces covered with pepper spray. I had made a medical bag, just in case, and began treating them as best I could. In all, I treated about a dozen men and one woman who had been hit with pepper spray directly to the face. In addition, several men had gaping wounds to their heads. I cleaned some of those, and gave rags to stop the bleeding. One I heard had gone to the hospital for treatment.

I was doing all of this at the same time I was inching forward into the Antifa crowd because the police were still pushing. Finally, they gave us another way that let us onto the street just in front of the Antifa line. I heard these right groups say they were moving to another park. As I tried to move with them to be safe (as I said, I was alone so didn't want to move through the violent Antifa crowd on my own), I got pulled away by a news crew to do an interview.

As I spoke to them, a gas canister hit my foot. I kicked it back in the direction that it came. In the 3 or 4 minutes that I spoke to the reporter, the 'right' group had disappeared. I walked in the direction that I thought they were in, but couldn't find them. I walked into another near by park, and noticed it was full of Antifa, so I quickly turned around and asked a security guard for directions.

I ended up somehow back at emancipation park, where the police were standing, and Antifa was STILL there, holding a full blown rally in the park where WE had the permit, and the police showed absolutely NO sign of making THEM leave like they tried to make our side leave. Oddly enough, I think I may just look like Antifa with my dreadlocks, and I stayed safe. I think if I didn't have my locks, I'd probably have been beaten since I was alone. I saw NO other members of the 'right' still at Emancipation Park.

As an after thought, IF the driver of the car that hit and killed the bystanders turns out to be Antifa, I wouldn't be surprised because the Nationalists, by this time, were all dispersed a few miles away at another park. We'll see.

Eventually, I caught up with the stragglers from the 'right' group. I met a very nice older gentleman who was having trouble keeping up with the distance and the heat as I was. This guy, and his nephew, later were the ones to give me a ride to my car, which was God-knows-where on the other side of town. Together, we headed for McIntyre park, but by the time that we reached there, we were told that police turned the 'right' group away.

We hung out on a busy corner for about 20 minutes, people from the 'right' coming and going. Most said they were leaving Charlottesville. I watched as a large group of white power people packed up and left together.

As we were there, many cars drove by calling us names. My back was turned, by the older gentleman that I had met told me that someone spit at my back but missed as they drove by.

So I want to make one thing perfectly clear: The police did a pretty good job PLANNING to keep people separated, but did not account for group mobility between and around the parks.

BLM and Antifa groups did NOT start out at Emancipation Park. They came TO US. They could have peacefully protested in a different park, and we all could have been safe.... I'm not even sure that they had a permit to be at Emancipation Park. They should have been stopped at some perimeter around the park.

The other point, I already made, but WHY was the group that had the permit forced to leave and the antagonist group allowed to stay at Emancipation Park?"
I do not know this poster and cannot vouch for her veracity. Just posting this for informational purposes.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 08:06:46 AM
@sneakypete

I am guessing you didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge the many pics of the idiots in robes at this rally.  I stand 100% behind every post in this thread.  I am a southern preservationist for any reasons (including my tagline), and absolutely detest the Klan and their ilk for hijacking the CBF, and creating the backlash toward icons of southern heritage.

Didn't expect an apology in any case.

I don't know why Southern preservationists only seem to focus in on the Civil War.

A rebellion against the US and its Constitution.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 08:10:07 AM
FWIW, via Facebook:I do not know this poster and cannot vouch for her veracity. Just posting this for informational purposes.

This report is somewhat similar to one where I heard a local female reporter go to a rally to cover an event, a different event, not yesterday's; and though a "neutral reporter", basically got harassed by the antifas, she wanted to leave as soon as possible. Her car being parked in a Sear's parking lot, she thought if she didn't leave, her car was going to get rocks thrown at it.

For the record, ACLU Virginia; one can read their tweets and yes, their observers were there.
https://twitter.com/ACLUVA
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:11:41 AM
FWIW, via Facebook:I do not know this poster and cannot vouch for her veracity. Just posting this for informational purposes.

I saw something similar on twitter.

Whoever let the blm/antifa crowd do their part should be charged with inciting a riot and blamed for the violence and deaths.

Such utter BS, IMO.

All the polly's are gonna be crying for Trump to denounce the "white supremacists" for this. All those polly's, including the rubio and cruz need to be slapped down. They are total POS.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 13, 2017, 08:22:25 AM
Also making the rounds is a video about 27 minutes long posted on Facebook by members of a patriot group who were in Charlottesville during the violent events. I didn't watch the entire thing. Again, I nothing about these guys and do not vouch for their veracity, nor do I endorse the profanity.  :nometalk:
https://www.facebook.com/joshgemmipatriotmedia/videos/335928490197751/
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 13, 2017, 08:25:26 AM
That was apparent in his association with Don King and defense of Mike Tyson.

Unfortunately not caring where his money and support comes from only encourages them. The statement from the Daily Stormer clearly states that Trump didn't name them so Trump still supports them.

Look at Klan Republic, they're saying it was a George Soros false flag operation even as one poster sits there among them complaining that the alt right neonazis haven't been aggressive enough and haven't busted enough jaws.

When I was 14 or 15 years old an elderly German man spoke at the men's club breakfast at our church. He says he didn't support the nazis but ended up just as guilty because he chose to look away rather than oppose them when he had a chance. He laid out the same arguments I'm seeing here. "The nazis aren't with us so we don't need to denounce them or defend ourselves". "The communists are just as bad, why isn't anyone doing something about them". In the end, nazi crimes were ignored as countless communists were charged on ridiculously trumped up charges but by then, no one had the courage to speak. He said it was not widely believed that the communists started the reichstag fire but it was well known that attracting the attention of the nazis was bad.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 08:31:33 AM
Didn't Trump get a higher percentage of the black vote than either Romney or McCain?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 08:35:32 AM
I saw something similar on twitter.

Whoever let the blm/antifa crowd do their part should be charged with inciting a riot and blamed for the violence and deaths.

Such utter BS, IMO.

All the polly's are gonna be crying for Trump to denounce the "white supremacists" for this. All those polly's, including the rubio and cruz need to be slapped down. They are total POS.

Remember how the left shut down Trump's Chicago rally? And, all the other candidates quickly came out from under their rocks to denounce the hate and violence of Trump supporters! not the leftist BLM/ soros protesters?! I was most disappointed to see Cruz among the GOP candidates who were deeply concerned about Trump's behavior inciting his supporters to violence.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 08:38:14 AM
I don't know why Southern preservationists only seem to focus in on the Civil War.

A rebellion against the US and its Constitution.
Exactly what is a "Southern preservationist" anyway?  Someone proud of their heritage perhaps?

And you really need to read up on your history a bit more.  There was no 'Civil War' in this country.

Call it a War Between the States or a War Against Union Aggression if you like, but there was never a war to overthrow the government of this country, which is a Civil War.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:41:32 AM
Remember how the left shut down Trump's Chicago rally? And, all the other candidates quickly came out from under their rocks to denounce the hate and violence of Trump supporters! not the leftist BLM/ soros protesters?! I was most disappointed to see Cruz among the GOP candidates who were deeply concerned about Trump's behavior inciting his supporters to violence.

I think the statement Trump made, denouncing both sides, was the correct response.  The statements being made by the pollys like rubio and cruz, are not.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 13, 2017, 09:03:53 AM
I think what jp is saying, and I happen to agree, is that NT as a movement (which has its origins in the political right) is a destructive force to positive change. It's standing in the way of stopping the left's relentless march forward. It gives them aid and comfort.

As an example of what the progressives are trying to stop, Pres. Trump reversed 860 burdensome business regulations which is just one part of his conservative, constitutional agenda. His goal is to bring federal regulatory excesses to a screeching halt. The left would like nothing more than to stop this president's agenda by fomenting unrest against him by any means necessary. NeverTrump gives them cover to make the claim that the country as a whole hates Trump, both the left and the right.

So, those of us who see Trump's agenda as an opportunity to tame the federal Leviathan sometimes have trouble distinguishing between the aims of leftists and those of NeverTrumpers.

Exactly correct and thank you for taking the time to explain. I've just about given up trying to explain things here.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
FWIW, via Facebook:I do not know this poster and cannot vouch for her veracity. Just posting this for informational purposes.

That account lines up with what I read from eyewitnesses in the park. At first I was troubled at how the cops performed. BUT, the blame for all of this falls on the Mayor or Governor, whoever ordered the ending of the permitted rally, and then allowed the antifa et al to illegally march in the street. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Blizzardnh on August 13, 2017, 09:36:20 AM
(Buchanan didn't run as a Republican.)


You might want to rethink that. He won the NH primary as a Republican.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 09:36:47 AM
Exactly correct and thank you for taking the time to explain. I've just about given up trying to explain things here.

You're welcome.

Yes, you are so right. There's so much being said here by Trump critics that just isn't so. I read someone's post and just gotta throw up my hands. What's the point of engaging? I can't spend my days arguing with people willfully ignoring the facts and in a constant state of high dudgeon.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 13, 2017, 09:39:43 AM
Exactly what is a "Southern preservationist" anyway?  Someone proud of their heritage perhaps?

And you really need to read up on your history a bit more.  There was no 'Civil War' in this country.

Call it a War Between the States or a War Against Union Aggression if you like, but there was never a war to overthrow the government of this country, which is a Civil War.
"but there was never a war to overthrow the government of this country"
Well, actually, if you declare yourselves to an independent country and fire upon the soldiers of the country which had been your country, you have effectively overthrown that previous government.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 09:58:28 AM
FWIW, via Facebook:I do not know this poster and cannot vouch for her veracity. Just posting this for informational purposes.

Interesting.  I sure wish she had said what she thought she was going to.  What was it she was attending and why?  Who had the permit?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 10:14:04 AM
Not one chance in hell. How old are you,anyhow,3?

I am old enough to recognize ad hominem when I see it.  Can't say that I am fond of non-rational persuasion, but it seems to be your forte.


Lee's legacy has been dragged through the mud ever since the day he resigned from Mr.Lincoln's Army and came home to lead the Army of Virginia. I have heard his described as a "traitor and rebel" my whole damn life.

In case nobody has ever splained this to you,the winners get to write the history books.


As someone who was schooled in the Commonwealth, I was taught more about the American Revolution and the War of Secession than you could ever hope to know.  And no, Robert E. Lee was never described as either "traitor" or "rebel".  Lee fought for Virginia and Virginia alone against Northern invaders.  His battles were fought exclusively in Virginia, Maryland, and Pennsylvania.  So I don't know where you live where Lee was referred to in such despicable terms, but it certainly isn't in the Commonwealth of Virginia or any other Southern state for that matter.  If Lee's name was really thought of in these terms, then there wouldn't be a Lee park in Charlottesville to begin with, much less a Robert E. Lee high school 40 miles to the west or a Monument Street in the former Confederate capital 70 miles to the east.

Of course none of this has a thing to do with you defending white supremacists who are trampling on Lee's good name in order to thrust themselves into the spotlight.   (See:  'Non-rational Persuasion' above)

The bottom line here is that you don't know a damn thing about Virginia, Southern history, or the hijacking of War of Secession symbols by white racist scumbags who have trampled on the graves of true Southern patriots.  Which is why you defend the racist marchers instead of Robert E. Lee.


That's the ticket,Bubba! Bring Trump into it because you have nothing else.

It was Trump's response that we were discussing.  Try to keep up.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 10:22:09 AM
Interesting.  I sure wish she had said what she thought she was going to.  What was it she was attending and why?  Who had the permit?

Unite the Right had the permit. Antifa evidently forgot to get a permit to hurl urine into the permitted assembly.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 10:23:25 AM
Interesting.  I sure wish she had said what she thought she was going to.  What was it she was attending and why?  Who had the permit?

Though she didn't directly say it, the group Unite The Right had the permit.  They were protesting the planned removal of the Robert E. Lee statue in Emancipation Park.  They petitioned to have the protest there because it's the location of the monument and until recently, the area was called Robert E. Lee Park.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 10:23:46 AM
Ohio man charged with murder in car attack


Associated Press and Staff Reports     |     18 hrs ago


James Alex Fields Jr., of Maumee, Ohio, has been charged with second-degree murder, three counts of malicious wounding and failing to stop at the scene of an accident that resulted in a death after a car plowed into a crowd on the Downtown Mall.

The crash killed a 32-year-old woman and injured 19 others following an alt-right demonstration downtown.

Charlottesville Police Chief Al Thomas has been empowered to "regulate, restrict or prohibit any assembly of persons, or the movement of persons or vehicles" on any public property including parks, streets and sidewalks, according to a release from city officials.

The emergency ordinance passed City Council unanimously during an emergency meeting at the Albemarle County Office Building, according to the release.

Mayor Mike Signer was quoted in the release, "The Council's decision to give Chief Thomas the authority to enact a curfew as appropriate was made out of an abundance of caution. We did so, having full confidence in Chief Thomas and regional law enforcement's ability to make the final call.”

Chief Thomas has yet to take any action, according to the release.

Other arrests made in connection with the unrest in Charlottesville are:

    Jacob L. Smith, 21, of Louisa, Virginia, was arrested and charged with misdemeanor assault & battery.
    James M. O’Brien, 44, of Gainesville, Florida, was arrested and charged with carrying a concealed handgun.
    Troy Dunigan, 21, of Chattanooga, Tennessee, was arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/crime/ohio-man-charged-with-murder-in-car-attack/article_6086b838-7f92-11e7-9494-47d2887ee8cd.html



Louisa is not far from Charlottesville.  The others are obviously from outside the Commonwealth.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 10:35:50 AM
More background.  Because of the car assailant, the prior events leading up to it are not being given due diligence.


Unite the Right' rally: Violence erupts even before protest begins

CHARLOTTESVILLE — A massive white nationalist rally in this progressive Virginia college town turned violent Saturday morning even before a car slammed into counterprotesters Saturday afternoon.

Intense skirmishes broke out between counterprotesters and attendees.

Pepper spray filled the air as the two groups engaged in physical fights. At one point, the rally attendees, many of whom were outfitted with shields, guns and sticks, appeared to launch at least four tear gas canisters on the counterprotesters, scattering them in search of medical attention.

At 11:30 a.m., police, who had a heavy presence in the area but for the most part did not intervene in the violence, declared the assembly unlawful and began to clear the park.

The rally, which was called to protest the city’s plan to remove a Confederate Statue from a downtown park and advocate for a mishmash of white nationalist and supremacist positions, had been set to begin at noon. Organizers had expressed a hope that the event, which drew as many as a thousand supporters from around the country, would galvanize their fringe movements into a greater political force.

Attendees quickly dispersed, many looking ragged. As of 12:30 p.m., police reported 1 arrest and eight injuries.

“Police sprayed me, the (counterprotesters) sprayed me, everyone sprayed me,” said 29-year-old William Fears, a contruction worker who traveled from Houston, Texas, to join the rally.

Fears had stripped down to only his underpants because he said his clothes had been drenched in an unknown chemical weapon. He said he travelled to Charlottesville to “defend white history, advocate our rights to exist and to make friends.”

Thousands of Charlottesville residents turned out to make their displeasure with the rally known. Among them was George Stepp, a city native, who waved a large portrait of Barrack and Michelle Obama at the rally attendees, taunting them.

“This is my first time every coming out to a protest like this,” Stepp said. “I just want to get in their mind how great of a president Obama was – rub it in a little bit.”

While many of the rally attendees waved signs expressing support for President Donald Trump, the president denounced the rally in a tweet, saying “We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!”

President Donald Trump and First Lady Melania Trump called for peace after violent clashes broke out at a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville.

The President said at 1:19 p.m. Saturday on Twitter: "We ALL must be united & condemn all that hate stands for. There is no place for this kind of violence in America. Lets come together as one!"

Melania Trump, about 45 minutes earlier, tweeted: "Our country encourages freedom of speech, but let's communicate w/o hate in our hearts. No good comes from violence."

Hundreds of white nationalists and counter protestors faced off Saturday in downtown Charlottesville, with several violent clashes erupting.

It's the latest confrontation in the city since it voted to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a downtown park.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/state/unite-the-right-rally-violence-erupts-even-before-protest-begins/article_4aa6dc12-7f94-11e7-a7bf-67121773eaa6.html



The intolerant violence of the left should not be ignored.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
"but there was never a war to overthrow the government of this country"
Well, actually, if you declare yourselves to an independent country and fire upon the soldiers of the country which had been your country, you have effectively overthrown that previous government.
Nope, there was zero attempt to overthrow the duly-elected government of the United States.

That is a bald-faced lie.

History is not your strong suit, is it?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: catfish1957 on August 13, 2017, 10:45:13 AM
I don't know why Southern preservationists only seem to focus in on the Civil War.

A rebellion against the US and its Constitution.

Where did I say I only focused on the civil war?  It's a huge piece, but not the only one.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 11:09:36 AM
There was no 'Civil War' in this country.

Call it a War Between the States or a War Against Union Aggression if you like, but there was never a war to overthrow the government of this country, which is a Civil War.

Factually incorrect.  The simplest definition of a civil war is armed conflict between factions of the same state.  The Confederacy never achieved formal recognition from the US government or foreign nations.  Therefore, they were still part of the United States, despite efforts to secede.

It is correct the goal was not to conquer the north and overthrow the government in Washington, but that's more in line with being a coup or revolution.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
I don't know why Southern preservationists only seem to focus in on the Civil War.

We don't.   But at the moment, no one is taking away our collards, black-eyed peas, and barbeque.


A rebellion against the US and its Constitution.

Uh, no.  Not a rebellion.  Virginia simply opted out.  No one tried to overthrow Washington, DC or any of the other states.  Let's keep in mind on whose territory the battle of Manassas was fought.  Which one was the invading army?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 11:24:57 AM
We don't.   But at the moment, no one is taking away our collards, black-eyed peas, and barbeque.


Uh, no.  Not a rebellion.  Virginia simply opted out.  No one tried to overthrow Washington, DC or any of the other states.  Let's keep in mind on whose territory the battle of Manassas was fought.  Which one was the invading army?

Oh yeah, wasn't that the zeroth amendment to the constitution, the "Opt Out Clause"?

:facepalm2:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 13, 2017, 11:31:32 AM
Here is what Andrew Jackson said about succession.


But each State having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with the other States a single nation, cannot from that period possess any right to secede, because such secession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation, and any injury to that unity is not only a breach which would result from the contravention of a compact, but it is an offense against the whole Union.  To say that any State may at pleasure secede from the Union, is to say that the United States are not a nation because it would be a solecism to contend that any part of a nation might dissolve its connection with the other parts, to their injury or ruin, without committing any offense. Secession, like any other revolutionary act, may be morally justified by the extremity of oppression; but to call it a constitutional right, is confounding the meaning of terms, and can only be done through gross error, or to deceive those who are willing to assert a right, but would pause before they made a revolution, or incur the penalties consequent upon a failure
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 11:33:53 AM
Oh yeah, wasn't that the zeroth amendment to the constitution, the "Opt Out Clause"?

@Oceander

You must be thinking of the 'right to vote' clause.  Oh wait, that doesn't exist either.

So according to your logic, Virginia can't secede because there is no explicit clause saying they can.  And you can't vote because there is no explicit clause saying you can.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 11:36:16 AM
Here is what Andrew Jackson said about secession.

Do you know what Andrew Jackson said about ignoring Supreme Court orders?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 13, 2017, 11:37:31 AM
Do you know what Andrew Jackson said about ignoring Supreme Court orders?


I know about that and that was wrong for him to do it. He is right in this case.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 11:38:12 AM
Factually incorrect.  The simplest definition of a civil war is armed conflict between factions of the same state.
  So by your definition any fight between anybody in a country is a civil war.  You better rethink that line as it don't hold mustard.
Quote
The Confederacy never achieved formal recognition from the US government or foreign nations.  Therefore, they were still part of the United States, despite efforts to secede.
Ever read about how Lincoln went to such great lengths to prevent that, so much he was willing to risk war with the British by taking one of its ships at sea?  https://history.state.gov/milestones/1861-1865/trent-affair

I know, you won't call that Union Agression either, will you?
[/quote]
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 11:41:24 AM

I know about that and that was wrong for him to do it. He is right in this case.

His inductive statement may be logically strong, but it is legally baseless.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 11:42:48 AM
Probably the best photo from yesterday. 

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20770473_805895859590455_4259490074476118268_n.jpg?oh=ca0c025cc8e939c7cff78e197a7d3763&oe=5A3402F4)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
Probably the best photo from yesterday. 

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20770473_805895859590455_4259490074476118268_n.jpg?oh=ca0c025cc8e939c7cff78e197a7d3763&oe=5A3402F4)

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 11:44:05 AM
Probably the best photo from yesterday. 

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20770473_805895859590455_4259490074476118268_n.jpg?oh=ca0c025cc8e939c7cff78e197a7d3763&oe=5A3402F4)

Exactly.  Ignore them.    But noooooooooo.   
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 11:45:09 AM
Exactly.  Ignore them.    But noooooooooo.   

Cavities in ones teeth don't go away if ignored. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Suppressed on August 13, 2017, 11:46:43 AM
Factually incorrect.  The simplest definition of a civil war is armed conflict between factions of the same state.  The Confederacy never achieved formal recognition from the US government or foreign nations.  Therefore, they were still part of the United States, despite efforts to secede.

It is correct the goal was not to conquer the north and overthrow the government in Washington, but that's more in line with being a coup or revolution.

If they were still part of the US, then the US operated illegally, not having quorum in Congress.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 11:47:35 AM
Exactly.  Ignore them.    But noooooooooo.   

I was thinking more like he is doing his job protecting those even though they hate him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 11:47:55 AM
Cavities in ones teeth don't go away if ignored.

Oh, please.  These idiots are no threat.   99.9% of the country think think they're idiots.  Let them have their little circle jerk.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 11:51:27 AM
If they were still part of the US, then the US operated illegally, not having quorum in Congress.

I believe they managed a quorum in a good parliamentarian fashion. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 11:52:22 AM
I believe they managed a quorum in a good parliamentarian fashion.

I especially liked the film clip where one of them was punching a girl.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 11:53:58 AM
Oh, please.  These idiots are no threat.   99.9% of the country think think they're idiots.  Let them have their little circle jerk.

Even when one of them puts actions to words and kills?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:05:03 PM
The name is taken from the historical fact of the Revolutionary war, that only 3% of the existing population took an active role in our Independence.  Many are Militia and a good number are ex-mil.  Not affiliated directly with Oathkeepers, but many Oathkeepers also identify as 3 Percenters.

Usually you can find patches with roman numeral 3 inside the stars of a Betsy Ross flag or the stars and bars.

@INVAR

Ok,thanks. I didn't know that. I did know about the low actual participation in the Revolutionary War,but I don't recall a big deal being made about it back then.

Then again,I guess it wasn't as relevant in the 1950's and 1960's as it is today.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 12:06:07 PM
One of the counter-demonstrators, antifa side, had some sort of little flamethrower. There is that photo out there too if it is authentic. If the opposition is armed with that, it's not exactly something that one can ignore.

I'm sure and especially since it was a college town, there were probably a lot of innocent parties on the counter-protesters side and likely on the Unite the Right side as well.

A lot of people probably just showed up to see what would happen.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 12:08:19 PM
One of the counter-demonstrators, antifa side, had some sort of little flamethrower. There is that photo out there too if it is authentic. If the opposition is armed with that, it's not exactly something that one can ignore.

I'm sure and especially since it was a college town, there were probably a lot of innocent parties on the counter-protesters side and likely on the Unite the Right side as well.

A lot of people probably just showed up to see what would happen.

It's starting to look like the streets of Berlin, circa 1930, with Nazis and Communists brawling in the streets.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:08:56 PM
  So by your definition any fight between anybody in a country is a civil war.  You better rethink that line as it don't hold mustard.Ever read about how Lincoln went to such great lengths to prevent that, so much he was willing to risk war with the British by taking one of its ships at sea?  https://history.state.gov/milestones/1861-1865/trent-affair

I know, you won't call that Union Agression either, will you?

It's not my definition, it's the definition.  Check a dictionary. 

As for the Trent affair, they ran a blockade and had belligerents on board.  What else would you expect to happen?  They were sent on their way, not 'seized.'  There was no real risk of war with Britain for many reasons.  They needed the grain shipments coming from NY, they had closer concerns occurring in Europe, and heavy British investing had been put into American railroads.

The point is, they didn't achieve recognition from anyone, most importantly, the US government.  The Union flag started the war with 33 stars and ended with 35.  It was a civil war by clear definition and the south lost.  They don't get to call it other things due to butthurtedness over it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 13, 2017, 12:11:30 PM
It's starting to look like the streets of Berlin, circa 1930, with Nazis and Communists brawling in the streets.

Exactly!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:11:39 PM
Quote
First - my opinion is that Trump is about as racist as a lump of limestone. In other words, not in the slightest - he gives damn one about the green, not the colour or religion of hand that's holding it.

@EC

WHAT??? How DARE YOU suggest this man with Jewish children and grandchildren isn't a Neo-Nazi!

Gee,you would almost think that at least one of the "uber intelligent and informed" talking heads on one of the Sunday news shows would have thought of this and mentioned it,wouldn't you?

Or the FACT that the real racists have  been damning him since Day One for having Jews and blacks in his cabinet. (extreme sarcasm alert!)


Quote
At the same time, I can sort of see a reasoning behind being slow to denounce (he DID denounce Duke during the primaries  in the end, just way too slowly) above and beyond the "any publicity is good publicity" mindset he has.

I think the real "problem" here,which I consider to be an asset,is that he is not a career politician,and this means he more tuned into results than he is public opinion. He does what he thinks is the right thing to do,and is totally deaf to how this will be played in the media.

He does seem to be learning,though.



Quote
The left have their shock troops, their emminently disposable useful idiots. Why shouldn't the right? It's twisted, but it's a possible. Bannon is certainly capable of being that cynical.

True.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 12:18:53 PM
It's starting to look like the streets of Berlin, circa 1930, with Nazis and Communists brawling in the streets.

Yep. And initially they were a very small minority but people were egged on and 'encouraged' to take sides.  There was a lot of propaganda that you are either 'with x or you support y' from both sides. It blew up into  basically philosophical tribal warfare and the rest is history.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 13, 2017, 12:23:49 PM

This is worth a look. You have to click to left of the play arrow.

http://www.pscp.tv/FaithGoldy/1yNGamRYYAgGj (http://www.pscp.tv/FaithGoldy/1yNGamRYYAgGj)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
Yep. And initially they were a very small minority but people were egged on and 'encouraged' to take sides.  There was a lot of propaganda that you are either 'with x or you support y' from both sides. It blew up into  basically philosophical tribal warfare and the rest is history.

Yep, two groups of leftists.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 12:25:18 PM
It's starting to look like the streets of Berlin, circa 1930, with Nazis and Communists brawling in the streets.


For you, @dfwgator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syyxZdNK4vE
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 12:25:20 PM
Because of what happened in Greenesboro NC in 1979; it was in the back of my mind that something again could happen yesterday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

Quote
Rally

Four local TV news camera teams arrived at the Morningside Homes at the corner of Carver and Everitt streets to cover the protest march. Members of the CWP and other anti-Klan supporters gathered to rally the march, which was planned to proceed through the city to the Greensboro City Hall.

As the marchers collected, a caravan of ten cars (and a van) filled with an estimated 40 KKK and American Nazi Party members drove back and forth in front of the housing project. Several marchers beat at the cars with picket sticks or threw rocks at them. In response, the KKK and ANP members got out of their cars, took shotguns, rifles and pistols from the trunks, and fired into the crowd of protesters.

Perhaps, I'm wrong to even draw the two incidences together. 5 deaths in that, so even worse.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: INVAR on August 13, 2017, 12:26:28 PM
Yep. And initially they were a very small minority but people were egged on and 'encouraged' to take sides.  There was a lot of propaganda that you are either 'with x or you support y' from both sides. It blew up into  basically philosophical tribal warfare and the rest is history.

It's where we are heading, and most insist that kind of thing 'can never happen here'.

Usually followed by a comment regarding a tinfoil haberdashery.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 12:38:15 PM
Because of what happened in Greenesboro NC in 1979; it was in the back of my mind that something again could happen yesterday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

I remember many years back here in Atlanta that some local Klan group applied for a permit to march in College Park.  COLLEGE PARK !!!  Talk about suicidal tendencies.  Anyway, the most impressive part of the ordeal was civil rights icon Hosea Williams asking the Klan leader during a TV interview if he could join them in a lawsuit giving them the right to march.

At that moment, Williams became my favorite Atlanta politician of all time.  The man stood on principle.  Don't get me wrong.  I don't think Hosea should ever have been allowed to drive a car again considering his DUI history.  But the man spoke with integrity which is so refreshing in this political climate.

Another incident from this same event has also stuck out in my mind.  Some pre-march Klan protesters were protesting somewhere in South Fulton county.  One was brandishing a Confederate battle flag.  I will never forget some man charging forward and snatching that flag out of his hands and yelling 'How dare you use this flag as a symbol of the KKK'.  It was an act of courage that I will never forget.

Anyway, the Klan never got their permit to march in College Park (smart move) although they did get a permit to march in downtown Atlanta.  On march day, less than a dozen had the courage to show up, surrounded by 200 state troopers with full riot gear, and tens of thousands of Atlantans expressing their displeasure with their march.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:39:06 PM
Usually followed by a comment regarding a tinfoil haberdashery.

More accurately and specifically, a tinfoil milliner.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 12:45:36 PM
@sneakypete

Quote
I am guessing you didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge the many pics of the idiots in robes at this rally.


You are right. I didn't. What I DID notice is that the minority wearing the robes and carrying the Nazi flags were given more focus than the vast majority of the protesters that were NOT wearing costumes.

I will admit I didn't search out videos of this,though. I just looked at what happened to appear before me on tv when I was watching the news.


Quote
I stand 100% behind every post in this thread.


Ok. You have as much right to be wrong as anyone else.

Quote
I am a southern preservationist for any reasons (including my tagline), and absolutely detest the Klan and their ilk for hijacking the CBF, and creating the backlash toward icons of southern heritage.

I'm with ya on that one,as long as you are talking about what passes for the KKK these days. The original Klan came into existence because after the War of Northern Aggression ended,the typical white southerner had NO police or legal protection at all after all the sheriff,judicial,and political positions were filled with northerners who"had friends in high places". Some were radical abolitionists who really and truly hated the idea of slavery and hated all white southerners because they held them all responsible for it,but most were nothing more than common thieves whose sole focus was seizing and selling property for back taxes at unannounced sales to friends and relatives.

The woman that raised me was born in 1910. Her parents both died in the flue epidemic of 1918. She was 8,and her sister was 6. Their ancestors were Scots-Irish.

There was no such thing as a social services department back then OTHER than the KKK. They were still the shadow government during the first half of the 20th century. Anyway,what happened was the Klan knew there were two little girls that needed a home that had nowhere to live,and they also knew of a one-legged Civil War veteran that was living by himself,and needed help. So they decided the thing to do was to put them together. They took my mother and her sister over to his house and told him,and I quote my mother "Old man,these two little girls need a place to live,and you need someone to cook,clean and keep you company. We are going to leave them here to help you,and you are going to be held responsible for feeding,clothing,and sending them to school.",and left.

This worked and then a short while later word got back to the Klan that the girls weren't going to school,and the old man was drinking and gambling his pension away.

My mother told me that one Friday night the Klan showed up on horseback with their robes and burning torches,and called the old man and girls out into the yard and told him "We have heard you are not sending these girls to school or treating them right. This stops now. The next time we hear this we are going to come back,tie you t that tree on the corner of your yard,and horsewhip you until my arm is tired.",and left.

My mother told me they never again had a minute of trouble from that old man right up to the day he died.

BTW,I now own the land where that old man lived,and am the third member of my family to have bought it. I am sitting right now about 50 feet from where that tree stood. It was still standing when I bought this property. So was the house she and her sister lived in.

I am telling you this because THIS is the sort of thing the KKK was organized to do. Yes,they did lynch some blacks. The reason they did was because in some areas the appointed sheriffs would refuse to arrest blacks that abused whites,and either the Klan hanged the rapists and murderers,or they went unpunished. They also hanged white rapists and murderers for the same reason,but the media will never mention this. After all,it's not like they had courtrooms and jails to try them and lock them up in.

The "modern" KKK is an entirely different organization,though. Truth to tell,it was taken over by the FBI and the alleged Justice Department starting in the late 1920's and early 1930's because the Republicans in the North saw them as a political force that would keep the Dixie-crats in power forever,and because they were extending their reach into the north with events like the KKK March on DC in the 1920's,and it had the northern elites terrified they were going to lose political power and access to the Treasury.

Things didn't really get rolling downhill until the Kennedy Klan took over control of the feral goobermint in the early 60's. By the late 50's most Klan groups were under the direction of FBI/Justice Dept informants,and that was when the stuff like bombing black churches started happening. Think about this for a minute,do you REALLY believe that "Gawd-fearing!" southern citizens in the freaking Bible Belt would actually bomb churches?

People that went to the Church of Lenin has no such moral restrictions,though,and starting with King Franklin,they started gaining political power and gaining career political positions. They,nor anyone else ever tried to screw with Hoover much because he had the dirt on EVERYBODY while he was alive,but once he died there was no one in public office really fighting the left other than McCarthy,and after seeing what the left got away with doing to him,the rest of the people inclined to oppose the left remained silent. 


Quote
Didn't expect an apology in any case.

I apologize when I think I have been proven wrong,but I NEVER apologize in order to "get along". I'm not on any of these political boards to make friends. I come to them to point out truths where I think they are being overlooked. Lots of times they are "unpopular truths",but their popularity has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:51:03 PM
I remember many years back here in Atlanta that some local Klan group applied for a permit to march in College Park.  COLLEGE PARK !!!  Talk about suicidal tendencies.  Anyway, the most impressive part of the ordeal was civil rights icon Hosea Williams asking the Klan leader during a TV interview if he could join them in a lawsuit giving them the right to march.

At that moment, Williams became my favorite Atlanta politician of all time.  The man stood on principle.  Don't get me wrong.  I don't think Hosea should ever have been allowed to drive a car again considering his DUI history.  But the man spoke with integrity which is so refreshing in this political climate.

Another incident from this same event has also stuck out in my mind.  Some pre-march Klan protesters were protesting somewhere in South Fulton county.  One was brandishing a Confederate battle flag.  I will never forget some man charging forward and snatching that flag out of his hands and yelling 'How dare you use this flag as a symbol of the KKK'.  It was an act of courage that I will never forget.

Anyway, the Klan never got their permit to march in College Park (smart move) although they did get a permit to march in downtown Atlanta.  On march day, less than a dozen had the courage to show up, surrounded by 200 state troopers with full riot gear, and tens of thousands of Atlantans expressing their displeasure with their march.

Then you may remember how Carter cozied up to racist elements during his 1970 run for GA governor.  It's OK and excusable when Democrats do it.

Leroy Johnson, a black state Senator, voiced his support for Carter, saying, "I understand why he ran that kind of ultra-conservative campaign. ... I don't believe you can win this state without being a racist."
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
Even when one of them puts actions to words and kills?

I thought it was bad to blame an entire group for the actions of one person.........at least that's what I hear every time there is a Muslim act of terror.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 12:59:45 PM
I thought it was bad to blame an entire group for the actions of one person.........at least that's what I hear every time there is a Muslim act of terror.

Just wait and see what kind of elements show up outside the courthouse when his trial begins.

Should be a real mostrar de merde.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 01:01:28 PM
Just wait and see what kind of elements show up outside the courthouse when his trial begins.

Should be a real mostrar de merde.

I think there's a greater-than-zero chance this guy doesn't live to see his trial.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 01:03:09 PM
http://coed.com/2017/08/12/james-alex-fields-jr-charlottesville-suspect-arrest-driver-rams-car-into-protesters-white-nationalist-rally-counter-protest-injuries/

Some on what might have happened. Of course, we won't really know until a trial or we are provided with more info.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:04:48 PM
Just wait and see what kind of elements show up outside the courthouse when his trial begins.

Should be a real mostrar de merde.

@edpc

It will primarily be attention whores from both the far right and the left,and it's going to be an absolute nightmare for the local sheriff and his deputies.

If you watch it on tv,try to focus your attention more on the people in the background,on the fringes,than on the fools up front. Those are the people,like McAulliff's son in the northwest,that organized and paid for the anarchists to show up.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 01:09:36 PM
I think there's a greater-than-zero chance this guy doesn't live to see his trial.

@dfwgator

Not a chance. There will  be too much media attention focused on him for the sheriffs department to take any chances. That goober is going into the locked room in the closest state mental institution or prison,and he's going to be watched 24/7.

Chances are his next stop from there will be a federal prison because you can bet your bippy he is going to be facing federal prosecution for civil rights charges,and once there he will never be seen or heard from again. Once people get life sentences at federal prisons,they just disappear forever. The only time we will hear about him after that is when his obit is published after he dies from natural causes or suicides out.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 01:10:51 PM
@edpc

It will primarily be attention whores from both the far right and the left,and it's going to be an absolute nightmare for the local sheriff and his deputies.

If you watch it on tv,try to focus your attention more on the people in the background,on the fringes,than on the fools up front. Those are the people,like McAulliff's son in the northwest,that organized and paid for the anarchists to show up.

 I'm guessing there'll also be a change of venue. Perhaps Richmond.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 01:11:03 PM
Oh, please.  These idiots are no threat.   99.9% of the country think think they're idiots.  Let them have their little circle jerk.

Or we could simply use the images and hysteria to smear the president as being aligned with racists. Yeah, that'll help move the right's agenda forward.

Sure it will.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 01:11:32 PM
I remember many years back here in Atlanta that some local Klan group applied for a permit to march 

At that moment, Williams became my favorite Atlanta politician of all time.  The man stood on principle. 


Mine too.

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0419_Atlanta-_Operation_R.html

 A black City Councilman, Hosea Williams, who marched with the late Martin Luther King, Jr. in the civil rights movement, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: “I think what is happening in Atlanta right now is just terribly anti-American. It hurts me so bad that we who were the leaders of the movement in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, are now the political leaders, and we are doing the same things to demonstrators that George Wallace and Bull Connor and those did to us.”

Williams also blasted the department and the city for their unwillingness to tolerate peaceful dissent. “When I saw the police twisting arms and bending fingers and using pressure points, well that’s the way Adolf Hitler got started,” he said. “I was very hurt and surprised at the way the anti-abortion demonstrators were mistreated.”

---------------------------------------------------

I was there. Met my wife there in 1988.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 01:13:07 PM
@dfwgator

Not a chance. There will  be too much media attention focused on him for the sheriffs department to take any chances. That goober is going into the locked room in the closest state mental institution or prison,and he's going to be watched 24/7.
 

I'm just saying, if there's a chance that any 'inconvenient facts' may come to light during the trial.......
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 01:16:41 PM
Though she didn't directly say it, the group Unite The Right had the permit.  They were protesting the planned removal of the Robert E. Lee statue in Emancipation Park.  They petitioned to have the protest there because it's the location of the monument and until recently, the area was called Robert E. Lee Park.

OK, that helps.  It's beginning to make sense. 

Next question is about the group "Unite the Right".  Were they just formed for this protest?  What is/was their mission?  Do they share members with the KKK or any other "white power" groups?  Or, were they a convenient excuse for those groups to piggyback onto?  I don't know, but I'm very uncomfortable with the media/left complex labeling this as a "white nationalist" thing when it may have not started that way and excuses the other groups who bear some responsibility.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
My mother told me that one Friday night the Klan showed up on horseback with their robes and burning torches,and called the old man and girls out into the yard and told him "We have heard you are not sending these girls to school or treating them right. This stops now. The next time we hear this we are going to come back,tie you t that tree on the corner of your yard,and horsewhip you until my arm is tired.",and left.

My mother told me they never again had a minute of trouble from that old man right up to the day he died.


Interesting.  This would explain your sympathy for the KKK.  I've heard the same stories from my Florida relatives.  However, that in no way absolves the Klan for their detestable history.


Yes,they did lynch some blacks.

Some?  Don't try to minimize it.  Lynching one was too many.


The reason they did was because in some areas the appointed sheriffs would refuse to arrest blacks that abused whites,and either the Klan hanged the rapists and murderers,or they went unpunished.

Bullshit.  They lynched blacks because they could, regardless of whatever trumped up charge they could come up with.  And any sheriff refusing to arrest an accused rapist or murderer would find a noose around his neck as well.  Do you really deep down believe this lie you are peddling?

It's all about fear, power, and scapegoating a group of people.


Things didn't really get rolling downhill until the Kennedy Klan took over control of the feral goobermint in the early 60's. By the late 50's most Klan groups were under the direction of FBI/Justice Dept informants,and that was when the stuff like bombing black churches started happening. Think about this for a minute,do you REALLY believe that "Gawd-fearing!" southern citizens in the freaking Bible Belt would actually bomb churches?

Let me get this right.  You are seriously suggesting that the FBI/Justice Department - not the Klan - was responsible for the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing in 1963?  Wow.  Just wow.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EC on August 13, 2017, 01:19:53 PM

The original Klan came into existence because after the War of Northern Aggression ended,the typical white southerner had NO police or legal protection at all after all the sheriff,judicial,and political positions were filled with northerners who"had friends in high places". Some were radical abolitionists who really and truly hated the idea of slavery and hated all white southerners because they held them all responsible for it,but most were nothing more than common thieves whose sole focus was seizing and selling property for back taxes at unannounced sales to friends and relatives.

The woman that raised me was born in 1910. Her parents both died in the flue epidemic of 1918. She was 8,and her sister was 6. Their ancestors were Scots-Irish.

There was no such thing as a social services department back then OTHER than the KKK. They were still the shadow government during the first half of the 20th century. Anyway,what happened was the Klan knew there were two little girls that needed a home that had nowhere to live,and they also knew of a one-legged Civil War veteran that was living by himself,and needed help. So they decided the thing to do was to put them together. They took my mother and her sister over to his house and told him,and I quote my mother "Old man,these two little girls need a place to live,and you need someone to cook,clean and keep you company. We are going to leave them here to help you,and you are going to be held responsible for feeding,clothing,and sending them to school.",and left.

You know, if you change the words Klan to Cosa Nostra and northerners to aristocracy, you have the identical origin story of the Mafia.  :shrug:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 01:20:33 PM
Here is what Andrew Jackson said about succession.


But each State having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with the other States a single nation, cannot from that period possess any right to secede, because such secession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation, and any injury to that unity is not only a breach which would result from the contravention of a compact, but it is an offense against the whole Union.  To say that any State may at pleasure secede from the Union, is to say that the United States are not a nation because it would be a solecism to contend that any part of a nation might dissolve its connection with the other parts, to their injury or ruin, without committing any offense. Secession, like any other revolutionary act, may be morally justified by the extremity of oppression; but to call it a constitutional right, is confounding the meaning of terms, and can only be done through gross error, or to deceive those who are willing to assert a right, but would pause before they made a revolution, or incur the penalties consequent upon a failure

Yeah, I've made it a lifelong habit to never quote Andy Jackson.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 01:29:42 PM
OK, that helps.  It's beginning to make sense. 

Next question is about the group "Unite the Right".  Were they just formed for this protest?  What is/was their mission?  Do they share members with the KKK or any other "white power" groups?  Or, were they a convenient excuse for those groups to piggyback onto?  I don't know, but I'm very uncomfortable with the media/left complex labeling this as a "white nationalist" thing when it may have not started that way and excuses the other groups who bear some responsibility.

Everything I've found searching for 'Unite The Right' and the leader, Jason Kessler, has been through news or opposition sources.  That said, you'll get a view of who he is and what the group stands for through that prism.   I've yet to discover anything directly from him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 01:35:21 PM
Everything I've found searching for 'Unite The Right' and the leader, Jason Kessler, has been through news or opposition sources.  That said, you'll get a view of who he is and what the group stands for through that prism.   I've yet to discover anything directly from him.

Thanks for sharing what you have found.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 13, 2017, 01:36:51 PM
Quote
I am telling you this because THIS is the sort of thing the KKK was organized to do. Yes,they did lynch some blacks. The reason they did was because in some areas the appointed sheriffs would refuse to arrest blacks that abused whites,and either the Klan hanged the rapists and murderers,or they went unpunished. They also hanged white rapists and murderers for the same reason,but the media will never mention this. After all,it's not like they had courtrooms and jails to try them and lock them up in.

The "modern" KKK is an entirely different organization,though. Truth to tell,it was taken over by the FBI and the alleged Justice Department starting in the late 1920's and early 1930's because the Republicans in the North saw them as a political force that would keep the Dixie-crats in power forever,and because they were extending their reach into the north with events like the KKK March on DC in the 1920's,and it had the northern elites terrified they were going to lose political power and access to the Treasury.

Things didn't really get rolling downhill until the Kennedy Klan took over control of the feral goobermint in the early 60's. By the late 50's most Klan groups were under the direction of FBI/Justice Dept informants,and that was when the stuff like bombing black churches started happening. Think about this for a minute,do you REALLY believe that "Gawd-fearing!" southern citizens in the freaking Bible Belt would actually bomb churches?

People that went to the Church of Lenin has no such moral restrictions,though,and starting with King Franklin,they started gaining political power and gaining career political positions. They,nor anyone else ever tried to screw with Hoover much because he had the dirt on EVERYBODY while he was alive,but once he died there was no one in public office really fighting the left other than McCarthy,and after seeing what the left got away with doing to him,the rest of the people inclined to oppose the left remained silent. 

Fascinating thanks for taking the time to tell that story.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 01:40:39 PM
Fascinating thanks for taking the time to tell that story.

Fascinating indeed.  It's not every day that you run into a KKK apologist.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 01:45:34 PM
Fascinating indeed.  It's not every day that you run into a KKK apologist.

I warned people prior to the election.

And like Cassandra, was scorned and ridiculed for it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 01:45:59 PM
Mine too.

[url]http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0419_Atlanta-_Operation_R.html[/url]

 A black City Councilman, Hosea Williams, who marched with the late Martin Luther King, Jr. in the civil rights movement, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: “I think what is happening in Atlanta right now is just terribly anti-American. It hurts me so bad that we who were the leaders of the movement in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, are now the political leaders, and we are doing the same things to demonstrators that George Wallace and Bull Connor and those did to us.”

Williams also blasted the department and the city for their unwillingness to tolerate peaceful dissent. “When I saw the police twisting arms and bending fingers and using pressure points, well that’s the way Adolf Hitler got started,” he said. “I was very hurt and surprised at the way the anti-abortion demonstrators were mistreated.”

---------------------------------------------------

I was there. Met my wife there in 1988.


@don-o

Do you remember when Julian Bond's girlfriend got busted for cocaine possession (with intent to distribute)?  When the investigators turned their investigation to Bond, they were promptly fired and drawn up on charges themselves.  Institutionalized corruption.

I once remember Hosea talking about how Jesse Jackson had been sent out to pick up some chicken biscuits for breakfast when King was shot.  But after he returned, he pretended that he was standing right by him when the bullets were fired and that King died in his arms.  Hosea didn't think much of Jesse.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 01:46:08 PM
As for the Trent affair, they ran a blockade and had belligerents on board.  What else would you expect to happen?  They were sent on their way, not 'seized.'  There was no real risk of war with Britain for many reasons.
Am sorry you cannot read a history lesson, even when I spell it out for you.

The Trent did not run a blockade, but was in Spanish waters when the US aggressively seized the British vessel for inspection.

The US forcibly removed several non-British citizens onboard by declaring them 'contraband'.

There is no precedence for such an action, and most historians since that time have declared this an illegal action by the US.  It caused the British, who had declared in no uncertain terms it would not accept a forced action by the US in removal of these people, to be highly upset.

The US government was only able to pacify the British by declaring the US Navy Captain making the seizure acted without authority.  It was a certain lie and in spite of the lie, the people taken from the British ship illegally were seized and not 'sent on their way'.

You can revise the history books on saying some things, but this was indisputably a Northern Aggression.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 01:50:35 PM
@sneakypete

I am guessing you didn't notice or didn't want to acknowledge the many pics of the idiots in robes at this rally.  I stand 100% behind every post in this thread.  I am a southern preservationist for any reasons (including my tagline), and absolutely detest the Klan and their ilk for hijacking the CBF, and creating the backlash toward icons of southern heritage.

Didn't expect an apology in any case.
While there are many pics, count them. Really, count the individuals. The line is never more than two deep, there are lots of angles, but not a lot of different faces.
It reeks of the sort of photography done with CNN setting up the Muslims protesting terrorism, another group with thin ranks well imaged to appear much more numerous.
I'd wager between neonazis and the Klan folks there were not fifty present.

There are a lot of people who would, like you or I, protest (as we are doing here) the destruction of the heritage of people who were militarily forced back into the United States. The state I came from (and in which my heritage goes back to early colonial times) was occupied for the duration and only released after it had replaced its Constitution, years after the war. My ancestors fought that like anyone who had their home overrun by invading armies would. To see that heritage besmirched by those who claim to support its preservation, and destroyed by the other side is a source of constant vexation.

Now that the issue returns to this Republic with California making secessionist noises (for more marxist motives), the question arises of whether the Union will invade and burn their cities, destroy their industry, blockade their ports, rip up their rail lines, and loot their fields like they did to the South.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 13, 2017, 01:52:05 PM
Fascinating indeed.  It's not every day that you run into a KKK apologist.

I do not know much about the KKK but most of what I do know is not good. But I will say reconstruction in the south was very hard on the Southerns. So I can easily image a Southern milia forming to protect Southerns from the Yankee carpetbaggers and other criminals that came south to steal what little the south still had in wealth.

I've read that there were two KKKs. The first formed after the civil war for protection and a second that formed early mid 20th century. This second KKK was motivated not for self defense but racism.

There is no doubt in my mind that both KKKs were racist organization. I can see the justification for the first KKK but not the second. As I said I am no expert so I am going can to lurk mode on all things KKK.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 01:54:44 PM
I warned people prior to the election.

And like Cassandra, was scorned and ridiculed for it.

If we are talking about my friend @sneakypete , let's not forget he says he is of Native American ancestry, wholly or partially. I hope Sneakypete , you don't mind me saying this and that this is accurate. If not, my apologies.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
This is the young lady killed by the terrorist in the car yesterday. Heather Heyer.

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10294348_788927697803705_8325056670754692271_n.jpg?oh=5985d3925599934f905346c540c833a1&oe=5A32850A)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 02:04:00 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/20728013_10155811993981336_7540449640211170268_n.jpg?oh=51e249ad69a77f5c1b0fcc5b80178922&oe=59EE2450)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 02:04:30 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDZcKbVwAAnr45.jpg:large)
Damn.  What a waste of such a fine piece of American Muscle.  I hope the guy fries.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 02:07:12 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/20728013_10155811993981336_7540449640211170268_n.jpg?oh=51e249ad69a77f5c1b0fcc5b80178922&oe=59EE2450)

Yet her father couldn't bring himself to say it. (tweet it)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 02:15:32 PM
This is the young lady killed by the terrorist in the car yesterday. Heather Heyer.

Difficult to tell, because it happened so quickly, but she may be the person that is propelled through the air over the silver car that was struck in the rear.  Similar hair color and length – Caucasian person, but unclear.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 02:17:16 PM
Yet her father couldn't bring himself to say it. (tweet it)


What's so great about being "United".     Nazi Germany was "United".  I want a country where people are free to express their views, even if I disagree.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 02:18:32 PM
@don-o

Do you remember when Julian Bond's girlfriend got busted for cocaine possession (with intent to distribute)?  When the investigators turned their investigation to Bond, they were promptly fired and drawn up on charges themselves.  Institutionalized corruption.

I once remember Hosea talking about how Jesse Jackson had been sent out to pick up some chicken biscuits for breakfast when King was shot.  But after he returned, he pretended that he was standing right by him when the bullets were fired and that King died in his arms.  Hosea didn't think much of Jesse.

Vague memories of Bond; but Hosea much mote memorable. Boortz had him on the radio a lot.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 02:21:37 PM
Difficult to tell, because it happened so quickly, but she may be the person that is propelled through the air over the silver car that was struck in the rear.  Similar hair color and length – Caucasian person, but unclear.

I think she was crushed between the cars when the car slammed into the one before backing up. You can see in a photo I posted way up thread, there is a lot of hair and blood on the car that was hit. I'm actually surprised more people weren't killed. He took a three block running start and had some momentum behind him.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 02:25:23 PM
Oh yeah, wasn't that the zeroth amendment to the constitution, the "Opt Out Clause"?

:facepalm2:
Actually, I thought the 'opt out' clause had been settled long before the events of 1860.
to wit:
Quote
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
   We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
   That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
2.3    Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
   But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
   Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.
& c.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 02:27:57 PM
I think she was crushed between the cars when the car slammed into the one before backing up. You can see in a photo I posted way up thread, there is a lot of hair and blood on the car that was hit. I'm actually surprised more people weren't killed. He took a three block running start and had some momentum behind him.

Yes - what likely saved a lot of people from getting killed was the presence of the other cars.  People were off to the side, rather than being in the middle of the street.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 02:30:47 PM
Yes - what likely saved a lot of people from getting killed was the presence of the other cars.  People were off to the side, rather than being in the middle of the street.

I was reading some articles from the NPPA (National Press Photographer Association) about covering events like these and suggest #1 was never be in the middle of the street or in the front of the crowd, especially if things look like they will escalate.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 02:31:07 PM
Yes - what likely saved a lot of people from getting killed was the presence of the other cars.  People were off to the side, rather than being in the middle of the street.

Which makes me question is the driver really had to motive of inflicting mass casualties, or if he was fleeing because he felt threatened. 

Well, that's what the trial should be for,  to answer those questions.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 02:32:50 PM
I was reading some articles from the NPPA (National Press Photographer Association) about covering events like these and suggest #1 was never be in the middle of the street or in the front of the crowd, especially if things look like they will escalate.

Ground view is always the most dangerous.  I alway prefered to shoot down.  Safer elevation.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 02:33:31 PM
Quote
Taylor Lorenz‏Verified account @TaylorLorenz 24h24 hours ago
Replying to @TaylorLorenz

Anyway several police officers at the station here think the guy running people down wasn't malicious. They said the driver was scared
677 replies 1,544 retweets 1,968 likes

https://twitter.com/taylorlorenz

Who is Taylor Lorenz? She is the reporter for the Hill that was punched in the face yesterday; apparently the suspect additionally has an outstanding warrant.

I see the police chief is saying it was a premeditated act, maybe or even probably. I'm sure he has some pressure on him as well.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Which makes me question is the driver really had to motive of inflicting mass casualties, or if he was fleeing because he felt threatened. 

Well, that's what the trial should be for,  to answer those questions.

There are several videos upthread of this. He was not fleeing. He took a three block running start at the crowd. He had many areas to turn off or turn around safely before he got anywhere near them. From the videos, it was obviously intentional.

He has also been identified as a radical neo-nazi member of Vanguard America which is a pretty violent arm of The Nationalist Front, one of the worst WN groups. This is him on the left.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFEphdUQAE2TEl.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 02:36:07 PM
There are several videos upthread of this. He was not fleeing. He took a three block running start at the crowd. He had many areas to turn off or turn around safely before he got anywhere near them. From the videos, it was obviously intentional.

He has also been identified as a radical neo-nazi member of Vanguard America which is a pretty violent arm of The Nationalist Front, one of the worst WN groups. This is him on the left.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFEphdUQAE2TEl.jpg)

Like I said, it will all come out in the trial.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
He has also been identified as a radical neo-nazi member of Vanguard America which is a pretty violent arm of The Nationalist Front, one of the worst WN groups. This is him on the left.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFEphdUQAE2TEl.jpg)

Unsurprisingly, Vanguard America has denied his affiliation with Fields.

"The driver of the vehicle that hit counterprotesters today was, in no way, a member of Vanguard America,” read the statement. “All our members had been safely evacuated by the time of the incident. The shields seen do not denote membership, nor does the white shirt. The shirts were freely handed out to anyone in attendance.”

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Freya on August 13, 2017, 02:52:20 PM
@Freya

That's my local newspaper, btw.

Neat!!!!
@CatherineofAragon
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 02:58:28 PM
People, maybe on the extremes, did blame Obama for police officers killed during his administration. I really remember Obama condemning this... not... maybe he said something somewhere.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Fishrrman on August 13, 2017, 02:58:35 PM
Hey!
One of my banjos looks pretty much like that.
Don't give us banjo players a bad name!
That creep never learned to play!

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/5/5e/Osbanj2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081116202319)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 03:01:09 PM
Hey!
One of my banjos looks pretty much like that.
Don't give us banjo players a bad name!
That creep never learned to play!


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yIl69Nolprc/Tsxr_Ca3qqI/AAAAAAAAFko/q-0eb2kL08M/s1600/oswaldsinger.jpg)

Nope - he just sang....
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 03:15:54 PM
There are several videos upthread of this. He was not fleeing. He took a three block running start at the crowd. He had many areas to turn off or turn around safely before he got anywhere near them. From the videos, it was obviously intentional.

He has also been identified as a radical neo-nazi member of Vanguard America which is a pretty violent arm of The Nationalist Front, one of the worst WN groups. This is him on the left.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFEphdUQAE2TEl.jpg)

Unfortunately, that photo is photoshopped. Look at how the temple of the eye glasses immediately behind his right ear seems to be in front of his ear. There's no borderline. It's photoshopped.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 03:17:17 PM
([url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yIl69Nolprc/Tsxr_Ca3qqI/AAAAAAAAFko/q-0eb2kL08M/s1600/oswaldsinger.jpg[/url])

Nope - he just sang....


"I'm Just a Patsy.",  went to Number One with a bullet.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Unfortunately, that photo is photoshopped. Look at how the temple of the eye glasses immediately behind his right ear seems to be in front of his ear. There's no borderline. It's photoshopped.

No, it's not.  What you're pointing out is the tapering of the rim's upper corner.  Besides, the group released a statement saying they gave him a shield, but he wasn't really part of their organization.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 03:33:40 PM
Actually, I thought the 'opt out' clause had been settled long before the events of 1860.
to wit: 

Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 03:37:18 PM
Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Written by a man who owned slaves.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 03:40:05 PM
No, it's not.  What you're pointing out is the tapering of the rim's upper corner.  Besides, the group released a statement saying they gave him a shield, but he wasn't really part of their organization.

Don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but that photo is clearly Photoshopped.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 03:42:33 PM
Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Really? Is that why the Yankees kept their slaves long after the Revolution, too? Nice try. :thud: :silly:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 13, 2017, 03:43:50 PM
Thank goodness all this debate over slavery will have some effect on history itself! Woo hoo.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 03:44:27 PM
Never let a good crisis go to waste.



Charlottesville Mayor Blames Trump for Violence: ‘Look at the Campaign He Ran’

‘I mean, this is not hard’

Aug 13, 2017


The Democratic mayor of Charlottesville, Va., Michael Signer, is pinning blame directly on President Trump for the white nationalist protest and related violence that occurred in his city this weekend.

The blame for these events, he said, falls "right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president."

On Sunday he appeared on CNN's State of the Union and accused Trump of intentionally courting white nationalists. Here's a transcript:

TAPPER: You said you place blame for these terrifying events -- quote -- "right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president" -- unquote.

That is a -- that is a very strong charge to level. Why do you think the president himself bears responsibility?

SIGNER: Well, look at the campaign he ran. I mean, look at the intentional courting, both on the one hand of all these white supremacists, white nationalists, a group like that, anti-Semitic groups, and then look on the other hand the repeated failure to step up, condemn, denounce, silence, you know, put to bed all those different efforts, just like we saw yesterday.

I mean, this is not hard. There's -- you know, there's two words that need to be said over and over again, domestic terrorism and white supremacy. That is exactly what we saw on display this weekend.

And we just aren't seeing leadership from the White House. We certainly are going to see leadership from cities like Charlottesville, from mayors, from leaders all around the country left and right.

Republicans and Democrats, if there is an issue that can unite this country, that this can be a turning point for this democracy, I think it just happened right now this weekend in Charlottesville.

You know, I -- to be honest, it doesn't matter much to me whether -- he's already on the sidelines, I think, of so many issues. But the country is going to move ahead. This will be a turning point for the country to overcome this stuff, just like we have overcome these challenges in our past. And I think it's happening right now, as we speak.

https://news.grabien.com/story-charlottesville-mayor-blames-trump-look-campaign-he-ran-and



Another Democrat scumbag with blood on his hands because he did nothing to quell the violence.  Nothing.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 03:45:27 PM


Another Democrat scumbag with blood on his hands because he did nothing to quell the violence.  Nothing.

Scumbag, he is.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 03:47:53 PM
Never let a good crisis go to waste.



Charlottesville Mayor Blames Trump for Violence: ‘Look at the Campaign He Ran’

‘I mean, this is not hard’

Aug 13, 2017


The Democratic mayor of Charlottesville, Va., Michael Signer, is pinning blame directly on President Trump for the white nationalist protest and related violence that occurred in his city this weekend.

The blame for these events, he said, falls "right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president."


Another Democrat scumbag with blood on his hands because he did nothing to quell the violence.  Nothing.

Classic case of deflection. 
In other words he is going to be out of a job soon.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 03:50:06 PM
Really? Is that why the Yankees kept their slaves long after the Revolution, too? Nice try. :thud: :silly:


Where? NY? No, Ohio? No. Nice try.  A few border states? Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, not really yankee states.

(http://faculty.unlv.edu/pwerth/Free-slave-states.jpg)

 :thud:

Some of these states outlawed slavery long before the Civil War because they were aware of problems like slave rebellions and so on.

 *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but that photo is clearly Photoshopped.

No, the one in the post below it is clearly photoshopped.   Vanguard already acknowledged his presence among them and denied he was a member.  You are entertaining moon battery.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: driftdiver on August 13, 2017, 03:51:50 PM
The progressive left and their allies the NeverTrumpers have been pushing for a war, maybe they will get what they want, WAR

@jpsb

They have to break the system before they can rebuild it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 03:52:46 PM
Charlottesville rally organizer chased from press conference by protesters

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/13/charlottesville-rally-organizer-chased-from-press-conference-by-protesters.html

White nationalist blogger Jason Kessler, who organized Saturday’s “Unite the Right” in Charlottesville, Va., was suddenly chased out of a press conference he was holding Sunday afternoon.

Footage on social media showed Kessler being escorted by law enforcement away from the area, with protesters shouting the name of Heather Heyer, the woman who was killed after a car plowed into a crowd of people at yesterday’s rally.

Kessler was chased away from the press conference by protesters. As he exited the area, there were audible chants of “shame” coming from the crowd.

WARNING: VIDEO CONTAINS GRAPHIC LANGUAGE
 

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 03:53:11 PM
Some purported photos not being widely displayed:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHDtB8lU0AAlr1L.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/896554853555634177/KQwoTb70?format=jpg&name=600x314)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 03:55:07 PM
No, the one in the post below it is clearly photoshopped.   Vanguard already acknowledged his presence among them and denied he was a member.  You are entertaining moon battery.

Sorry, but the physical world doesn't work that way. I see the temple projecting practically in to his ear. Zoom in, anyone can see it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 03:55:15 PM
Really? Is that why the Yankees kept their slaves long after the Revolution, too? Nice try. :thud: :silly:

Yeah and almost 100 years after the revolution began, confederate leaders justified the institution through racial superiority after it had been abolished elsewhere in western civilization.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 03:56:40 PM
Some purported photos not being widely displayed:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/896554853555634177/KQwoTb70?format=jpg&name=600x314)

I like this one.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mountaineer on August 13, 2017, 03:57:47 PM
Yeah, what does it say on his/her shirt about "transgender"?  *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 03:57:47 PM
Never let a good crisis go to waste.



Charlottesville Mayor Blames Trump for Violence: ‘Look at the Campaign He Ran’

‘I mean, this is not hard’

Aug 13, 2017


The Democratic mayor of Charlottesville, Va., Michael Signer, is pinning blame directly on President Trump for the white nationalist protest and related violence that occurred in his city this weekend.

The blame for these events, he said, falls "right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president."

On Sunday he appeared on CNN's State of the Union and accused Trump of intentionally courting white nationalists. Here's a transcript:

TAPPER: You said you place blame for these terrifying events -- quote -- "right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president" -- unquote.

That is a -- that is a very strong charge to level. Why do you think the president himself bears responsibility?

SIGNER: Well, look at the campaign he ran. I mean, look at the intentional courting, both on the one hand of all these white supremacists, white nationalists, a group like that, anti-Semitic groups, and then look on the other hand the repeated failure to step up, condemn, denounce, silence, you know, put to bed all those different efforts, just like we saw yesterday.

I mean, this is not hard. There's -- you know, there's two words that need to be said over and over again, domestic terrorism and white supremacy. That is exactly what we saw on display this weekend.

And we just aren't seeing leadership from the White House. We certainly are going to see leadership from cities like Charlottesville, from mayors, from leaders all around the country left and right.

Republicans and Democrats, if there is an issue that can unite this country, that this can be a turning point for this democracy, I think it just happened right now this weekend in Charlottesville.

You know, I -- to be honest, it doesn't matter much to me whether -- he's already on the sidelines, I think, of so many issues. But the country is going to move ahead. This will be a turning point for the country to overcome this stuff, just like we have overcome these challenges in our past. And I think it's happening right now, as we speak.

https://news.grabien.com/story-charlottesville-mayor-blames-trump-look-campaign-he-ran-and



Another Democrat scumbag with blood on his hands because he did nothing to quell the violence.  Nothing.
Time for another chorus of "We Shall Overcome".  *****rollingeyes*****

The unpermitted group was allowed to assault and displace the group who had a lawful assembly permit. Police did not stop that. Were any of the 'counter-protestors' arrested for throwing urine and chemical agents onto those who had a permit to assemble? For assault?

Yet the mayor, (as those who would ignore what happened to Virginia during the War might opine) blames those invaded, not the invaders, blames the attacked, not the attackers, even though the former had complied with the law.
No wonder he wants the statues torn down, they are a reminder of his personal perfidy.
 
Whatever happened to "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 13, 2017, 03:58:50 PM
Some purported photos not being widely displayed:


(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/896554853555634177/KQwoTb70?format=jpg&name=600x314)

I'm OK with the sentiment, but not really thrilled it's from an Anarchist.   :shrug:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:00:53 PM
Yeah and almost 100 years after the revolution began, confederate leaders justified the institution through racial superiority after it had been abolished elsewhere in western civilization.
Some fellow came out with a book about that stuff....It's still taught in less contentious form, but was the philosophy to justify all sorts of things we might consider grievous. Darwin! that's the guy!

Oh, let's not ignore the profit motive for the ship owners running the golden triangle, either, nor how unpopular slavery suddenly became near their home ports when they couldn't profit off that cargo.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:01:31 PM
No, it's not.  What you're pointing out is the tapering of the rim's upper corner.  Besides, the group released a statement saying they gave him a shield, but he wasn't really part of their organization.

I agree; no photoshopping.  But, hey, you give the guy a shield and a shirt and he's yours for that point in time anyway.  Hard to argue "he was with us, but not one of us".
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 04:02:13 PM
Yeah, what does it say on his/her shirt about "transgender"?  *****rollingeyes*****

Under his Pink bandana in white letters.  Can't make it out either?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 04:04:40 PM
Whatever happened to "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Liberals never have been big on Voltaire.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:05:21 PM
Under his Pink bandana in white letters.  Can't make it out either?
Top line says "Transgender Veteran". Can't make out the rest.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:05:45 PM
I like this one.


Well, except for the "A" for anarchy part.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: DCPatriot on August 13, 2017, 04:07:21 PM
I'm OK with the sentiment, but not really thrilled it's from an Anarchist.   :shrug:

No way should the police allow either side to come into contact with each other.   

This is no different than burning and destroying the Berkeley campus to 'protest' Ann Coulter's sanctioned/scheduled speech.

BLM is a terrorist group.  They don't represent all blacks.

These skinheads and anarchists don't represent us.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 13, 2017, 04:09:25 PM
Unfortunately, that photo is photoshopped. Look at how the temple of the eye glasses immediately behind his right ear seems to be in front of his ear. There's no borderline. It's photoshopped.


But it seems that he was there:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFe-VNXsAAD-n9.jpg:large)

Note that this picture was taken with a bright flash.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 04:14:11 PM
No, it's not.  What you're pointing out is the tapering of the rim's upper corner.  Besides, the group released a statement saying they gave him a shield, but he wasn't really part of their organization.

Thanks, you beat me to it. It also came from a media twitter account posted long before the incident.  There were several there you can see him in it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 04:14:40 PM
No way should the police allow either side to come into contact with each other.   

This is no different than burning and destroying the Berkeley campus to 'protest' Ann Coulter's sanctioned/scheduled speech.

BLM is a terrorist group.  They don't represent all blacks.

These skinheads and anarchists don't represent us.

100% correct on all four counts.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 04:15:58 PM
Top line says "Transgender Veteran". Can't make out the rest.

Weird. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:17:33 PM
Sorry, but the physical world doesn't work that way. I see the temple projecting practically in to his ear. Zoom in, anyone can see it.

If you can't look at the clear left side, see how the frame tapers into the earpiece, then compare that to the right side, and tell it's not altered, you're engaging in willful denial.

Compare it to this one, where it's part of a sequence of photos, taken by the NY Daily News.  Same group of people together, but looking in different directions than the previous. I suppose it's Photoshopped as well?

(https://assets-nydailynews-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w1200/assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.3407239.1502598317!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/fields13n-6-web.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:19:13 PM
If you can't look at the clear left side, see how the frame tapers into the earpiece, then compare that to the right side, and tell it's not altered, you're engaging in willful denial.

Compare it to this one, where it's part of a sequence of photos, taken by the NY Daily News.  Same group of people together, but looking in different directions than the previous. I suppose it's Photoshopped as well?
...

Ed, any idea what the symbol on the shields means?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:20:33 PM
Weird.
Not when you consider the Marxists play identity politics where 'victimhood' is the only price of admission. They don't mind putting together a coalition of 'victims' to go out and 'fight the man' because they see anyone who isn't a victim as either an ally or an enemy.

To me the weird part is why some ugly guy would want to identify as an ugly woman. Queen of the howler monkeys or something...
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 04:21:13 PM
Ed, any idea what the symbol on the shields means?

I thought they were crossed rolling pins.   I think they make pies in their spare time.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 04:21:27 PM
Ed, any idea what the symbol on the shields means?


That's the symbol of Vanguard America which is a violent arm of The Nationalist Front, a very overt neo-nazi group. What looks like 'rolling pins' are Fasces which is an old Roman symbol for power and authority.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: DCPatriot on August 13, 2017, 04:21:44 PM
From our good friend, Clarice Feldman:

Quote

As abhorrent as we might find some who allied with the Alt-right in Charlottesville, the videos and reliable accounts of the riot, show they had a permit to demonstrate and were doing so peacefully until the police funneled them into the hands of the Antifa gang who started to attack them. Looks like once again, the right to peacefully assemble is available to only one side, and the media is happy to play along,
If you thought the ACLU was right when they obtained an order for Nazis to march thru Skokie, why do you look the other way when they are being beaten up with police connivance in Charlottesville?




http://www.facebook.com/clarice.feldman?hc_ref=ARRyXrJLo1LGKIN-gRMmpOWey44o_nCLbBNYsYOE7N5PMJrCcdmeshfXh4EkzP48zLs&fref=nf (http://www.facebook.com/clarice.feldman?hc_ref=ARRyXrJLo1LGKIN-gRMmpOWey44o_nCLbBNYsYOE7N5PMJrCcdmeshfXh4EkzP48zLs&fref=nf)

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 13, 2017, 04:21:50 PM

But it seems that he was there:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHFe-VNXsAAD-n9.jpg:large)

Note that this picture was taken with a bright flash.

Agree, second photo settles the issue. But, can anybody explain the oddity of the first picture? That temple clearly crosses the edge of his ear.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:22:41 PM
Ed, any idea what the symbol on the shields means?

They're crossed axes, often associated with white supremacy.   The first time I saw them, I thought they were rolling pins which was hilarious to me. An army of bakers?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 04:22:43 PM
Whether I agree with the sign of not per above; supposedly we have a right to free speech. The left says some very nasty things but it is their right.

From Richard Spencer being punched two times on camera I understand, to the flame thrower, and on and on, provocation needs to be recognized and it is on both sides.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 04:24:47 PM
  The first time I saw them, I thought they were rolling pins which was hilarious to me. An army of bakers?

Glad it wasn't just me!  lol
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:24:48 PM
...
To me the weird part is why some ugly guy would want to identify as an ugly woman. Queen of the howler monkeys or something...

Because they are deeply and pathologically unhappy with who they are and "if only they could be someone/something else" everything would be fine.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:26:10 PM
They're crossed axes, often associated with white supremacy.   The first time I saw them, I thought they were rolling pins which was hilarious to me. An army of bakers?
Not just axes, but fasces, a Roman symbol of power later used as a symbol of fascism.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 04:28:04 PM
Not just axes, but fasces, a Roman symbol of power later used as a symbol of fascism.

Yep, Fasces which is where the word Fascism comes from.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:30:06 PM
Whether I agree with the sign of not per above; supposedly we have a right to free speech. The left says some very nasty things but it is their right.

From Richard Spencer being punched two times on camera I understand, to the flame thrower, and on and on, provocation needs to be recognized and it is on both sides.

One of these times, the aerosol can will literally blow up in their face, as it did to this kid in England who did it as a prank.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/nintchdbpict000255024346.jpg?strip=all&w=609)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:30:54 PM
OK, got it now.  I thought I had seen that symbol before.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Fasces.svg/135px-Fasces.svg.png)

Quote
Fasces (/ˈfæsiːz/, (Italian: Fasci, Latin pronunciation: [ˈfa.skeːs], a plurale tantum, from the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle")[1] is a bound bundle of wooden rods, sometimes including an axe with its blade emerging. The fasces had its origin in the Etruscan civilization, and was passed on to ancient Rome, where it symbolized a magistrate's power and jurisdiction. The image has survived in the modern world as a representation of magisterial or collective power. The fasces frequently occurs as a charge in heraldry, it is present on an older design of the Mercury dime and behind the podium in the United States House of Representatives, it is used as the symbol of a number of Italian syndicalist groups, including the Unione Sindacale Italiana, and it was the origin of the name of the National Fascist Party in Italy (from which the term fascism is derived).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:31:23 PM
Whether I agree with the sign of not per above; supposedly we have a right to free speech. The left says some very nasty things but it is their right.

From Richard Spencer being punched two times on camera I understand, to the flame thrower, and on and on, provocation needs to be recognized and it is on both sides.
Who has the 'right' to invade a permitted assembly and incite and engage in violent behaviour?
The people in that assembly had a permit to be there, the "counter-protestors" did not. Punching someone is not "provocation": the word you are looking for is "assault".

I'm not defending the actions nor beliefs of either group, but the one group had jumped through the hoops necessary to conduct a lawful and peaceful protest. The other attacked them.

If Antifa and Co. had attacked the Daughters of the Confederacy at that venue would you see it the same way? Or the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution)? 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 13, 2017, 04:31:42 PM
Ed, any idea what the symbol on the shields means?


I'll be damned. Vanguard America is a 'fascist' organization that really is fascist.

"Vanguard America stands indomitably opposed to the tyranny of globalism and capitalism, a system under which nations are stripped of their heritage and their people are turned into nothing more than units of cheap, expendable labor."

https://bloodandsoil.org/manifesto/

@Sanguine
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 04:32:03 PM
One of these times, the aerosol can will literally blow up in their face, as it did to this kid in England who did it as a prank.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/nintchdbpict000255024346.jpg?strip=all&w=609)

Hope his eyebrows grow back.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:34:08 PM
Not just axes, but fasces, a Roman symbol of power later used as a symbol of fascism.

Yes – and unfortunately, we use a variation of that with arrows surrounded by bundles, instead of axes.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:38:41 PM
Hope his eyebrows grow back.

According to the story at the picture source, he put out the fire by rolling in a puddle outside of a pub. Probably a puddle of 'patron recycled ale' and vomit.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 04:41:24 PM
Yes – and unfortunately, we use a variation of that with arrows surrounded by bundles, instead of axes.
(http://www.coinfacts.com/dimes/mercury_dimes/1938_dime_rev.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 13, 2017, 04:42:12 PM
Yes – and unfortunately, we use a variation of that with arrows surrounded by bundles, instead of axes.


And we have a Senate. Every modern nation has elements of Rome.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 04:47:49 PM
([url]http://www.coinfacts.com/dimes/mercury_dimes/1938_dime_rev.jpg[/url])


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/US_Army_National_Guard_Seal.png)

This is the one I had in mind.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 04:50:25 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p235x350/20770045_10155618919299776_3600329049663440699_n.jpg?oh=3e4d2a13365f0937acc77ab03c640a44&oe=59ECAAC3)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 04:51:15 PM
It's massive!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Applewood on August 13, 2017, 05:30:11 PM
From our good friend, Clarice Feldman:

[url]http://www.facebook.com/clarice.feldman?hc_ref=ARRyXrJLo1LGKIN-gRMmpOWey44o_nCLbBNYsYOE7N5PMJrCcdmeshfXh4EkzP48zLs&fref=nf[/url] ([url]http://www.facebook.com/clarice.feldman?hc_ref=ARRyXrJLo1LGKIN-gRMmpOWey44o_nCLbBNYsYOE7N5PMJrCcdmeshfXh4EkzP48zLs&fref=nf[/url])


Sorry, but I don't know Clarice Feldman and I don't trust social media as a reliable source of information.  

Besides, I see she has a video from Infowars posted on her page.  Anything from Infowars sets off an alarm in me.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 05:35:28 PM
Sorry, but I don't know Clarice Feldman and I don't trust social media as a reliable source of information. 

Besides, I see she has a video from Infowars posted on her page.  Anything from Infowars sets off an alarm in me.

Oh good grief, she is pushing the 'crisis actor' angle.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 05:39:07 PM
Rally organizer punched as news conference devolves into chaos
Staff Reports 1 hr ago


(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/dailyprogress.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/91/d918e998-8063-11e7-8b4b-97d7e7fea343/5990b3871ae4f.image.jpg)

A planned news conference by Jason Kessler, organizer of the white nationalist Unite the Right rally, dissolved into chaos as an angry mob chased him from in front of City Hall on the Downtown Mall.

After attempting to make remarks that were drowned out by a chanting crowd, Kessler was whisked away by authorities into the Charlottesville Police Department building.

Several in the crowd approached Kessler as he was speaking and shoved him before he was punched. He then fled on foot, led by Charlottesville police.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/news/local/rally-organizer-punched-as-news-conference-devolves-into-chaos/article_917b64d0-8063-11e7-9023-732e158fd8dc.html



Let's see.  Charlottesville cop standing right there, yet no one was arrested for assault and battery.  Go figure.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: DCPatriot on August 13, 2017, 05:49:27 PM
It's a shame 'we've' given them a target.

...for it's a mere hop, skip and jump to Conservative media.

They had a right to be heard.  Especially, since they had obtained the necessary civic permits.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 13, 2017, 05:52:34 PM
A local editorial from the News-Virginian



EDITORIAL: And already, the blame game begins


The violence we witnessed in Charlottesville on Saturday is as heart-wrenching as it is senseless.

As horrifying as the death and mayhem experienced by our neighbor to the east is, however, we must not allow knee-jerk rhetoric and accusations to rule our response to the violence.

That’s much easier said than done, of course. Less than an hour after a car plowed through a crowd of counter-protesters to the alt-right rally in Charlottesville on Saturday, social media was abuzz with finger-pointing.

Here’s a sampling of the commentary, found in less than two minutes, on Facebook and Twitter Saturday afternoon.

“Conservatives knew this would happen. They wanted it to happen.”

“This is all on Trump and his Rambo-on-steroids rhetoric.”

“Obama started it with all his race-baiting rhetoric.”

“Liberal radicals are more violent than the right ever was.”

All this before the name of the driver was even released. Before anyone knew his motivation or his politics. Before anyone had an idea even if it had anything to do with the protests and counter-protests taking place in Charlottesville at the time.

The fact is the fault for Saturday’s violence lies with the people who committed it, no matter which side they’re on. Neither President Trump nor Barack Obama drove that car into a crowd of people.

Liberals and conservatives both have been guilty of volatile rhetoric, that much is true. And unfortunately, rhetoric sometimes spurs dangerous or unstable people to act violently.

But for anyone — politician or anonymous social media poster alike — to start throwing around accusations with no proof (and often without any idea what they’re talking about) is stupid, counter-productive and an example of the continuing erosion of our social discourse.

We can say without hesitation that anyone espousing hate, bigotry and malice towards a group of people based on the color of their skin, the God they worship, the country they were born in, or the person they fall in love with, is wrong, and we reject it.

But we also reject the idea that anyone who opposes affirmative action, for instance, or gay marriage, or uncapped immigration is automatically a racist, a homophobe or a bigot.

It’s important, for the sake of our country and for the sake of civil society, that we listen to those we disagree with most vehemently — and that they listen back.

Those found to be responsible for the acts of violence on Saturday should be held accountable, and hate, in all its forms, should be denounced.

But so should hair-trigger accusations of hate and blame.

President Trump got it right, mostly, in his initial response to Saturday's violence.

“We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides," Trump said. "It has been going on for a long time in our country — not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. It has been going on for a long, long time. It has no place in America."

We would have liked to hear Trump denounce the hateful speech, and clearly racist philosophy of the white nationalists whose rally was the  flash point for Saturday's protests and counter-protests (which is NOT the same as saying that group is to blame for Saturday's violence. As of this writing, we don't yet know who is responsible.) Just as we would have expected the president to denounce the calls last year by black radicals to kill police officers. Hatred and calls for violence, whoever it involves, must be denounced.

But Trump is right in that both hatred and violence come from many sides — and have no place in our nation.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/newsvirginian/opinion/editorials/editorial-and-already-the-blame-game-begins/article_374e5fca-7fbf-11e7-be52-b75c446cd8a8.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
The Democratic mayor of Charlottesville, Va., Michael Signer, is pinning blame directly on President Trump for the white nationalist protest and related violence that occurred in his city this weekend.

I bet this guy is a master at picking corn out of his shit.

I am reminded (don't know why) of the story of Anwar Sadat raising the price of their flat bread from one piaster to two. Then he went on vacay. He was standing on his villa balcony and asked what all the smoke in the city was from?

The entire country is tearing everything apart looking for your head.

He promptly lowered the price of bread.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 06:00:46 PM
It's a shame 'we've' given them a target.

...for it's a mere hop, skip and jump to Conservative media.

They had a right to be heard.  Especially, since they had obtained the necessary civic permits.

The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

There is no we in any of those groups yesterday. (at least I hope not)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 06:02:32 PM
The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

 goopo
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 06:10:45 PM

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

This.

A peek into my worldiew:

There is only ONE race on the planet that matters.

The Human Race. I admit it does take some practice to fully be one. So practice being a human being every day.

I see a whole bunch of amateurs out there pretending. They are--wearisome.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 13, 2017, 06:19:10 PM
The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

There is no we in any of those groups yesterday. (at least I hope not)

QFT

Best lost of the the discussion by far.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 13, 2017, 06:22:40 PM
The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

There is no we in any of those groups yesterday. (at least I hope not)

Exactly what I am thinking..we said.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Restored on August 13, 2017, 06:22:41 PM
The same mayor who allowed the rally in his town.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 06:41:49 PM
Actually, I thought the 'opt out' clause had been settled long before the events of 1860.
to wit:  & c.

Yeah, right.  The Constitution is an agreement amongst equals and does not contain a secession clause.  So, if a state tries to leave without the consent of the others, it continues to act honorably and satisfy its obligations, which means it remains subject to federal law - it voluntarily agreed that federal law was the supreme law of the land - or it doesn't, in which case it consists of nothing more than dishonorable welches and mooches who won't live up to their obligations. 

The Declaration of Independence came before the Constitution, not after, so the Constitution trumps the Declaraton. 

In other words, if you want to secede, you can be a steer, or you can be a queer, but those are your only two choices if you wish to secede. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 06:44:11 PM
Kessler gives press conference today saying what occurred yesterday was the responsibility of police not doing their job.  Not long after, he gets swarmed, accosted, chased, and tackled before police intervened.  Way to give him credibility.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 06:48:01 PM
The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

There is no we in any of those groups yesterday. (at least I hope not)
While I fully agree, the MSM has been pushing the "us vs them" false dichotomy for a long time.

"You are with us or against us"

"If you don't vote for X, it's a vote for Y."

You either support ______ or you are a "Hater".

No middle ground is to be tolerated in the polarization of America, and the two sides (because the Media will not acknowledge nor intellectually tolerate any more than that) will be characterized by the worst or best elements, depending on how the Media want to spin the story.

The Fourth Estate has become the Fifth Column.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 06:51:34 PM
Rally organizer punched as news conference devolves into chaos
Staff Reports 1 hr ago


(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/dailyprogress.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/d/91/d918e998-8063-11e7-8b4b-97d7e7fea343/5990b3871ae4f.image.jpg)

A planned news conference by Jason Kessler, organizer of the white nationalist Unite the Right rally, dissolved into chaos as an angry mob c

Look at all the pretty flowers! 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 06:54:30 PM
Yeah, right.  The Constitution is an agreement amongst equals and does not contain a secession clause.  So, if a state tries to leave without the consent of the others, it continues to act honorably and satisfy its obligations, which means it remains subject to federal law - it voluntarily agreed that federal law was the supreme law of the land - or it doesn't, in which case it consists of nothing more than dishonorable welches and mooches who won't live up to their obligations. 

The Declaration of Independence came before the Constitution, not after, so the Constitution trumps the Declaraton. 


The Declaration laid out the fundamental bases for the later agreement. The concept of unalienable rights endowed by our Creator, and the Right to throw off the bonds of government which no longer served the ends of protecting those rights. At that point, there was no power justly derived from the consent of the governed: the governed did not consent any longer. The very fundamental logic of throwing off the British Monarchy is just as valid in the negation of any other compact.
Quote
In other words, if you want to secede, you can be a steer, or you can be a queer, but those are your only two choices if you wish to secede.
Aside from the obvious and egregious insult to hundreds of thousands who gave their lives in the pursuit of defending their homeland after the Secession, you can tell that to California (where you will find both steers and bleep), because they are on their way to lighting that bonfire again.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 07:01:07 PM
Look at all the pretty flowers!

(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5990a4bb1500007d208b6595.jpeg?ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)

He got tackled by a girl!

Obvious caption, here but I'll let you do it, so I don't get banned.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 07:01:46 PM
While I fully agree, the MSM has been pushing the "us vs them" false dichotomy for a long time.

"You are with us or against us"

"If you don't vote for X, it's a vote for Y."

You either support ______ or you are a "Hater".

No middle ground is to be tolerated in the polarization of America, and the two sides (because the Media will not acknowledge nor intellectually tolerate any more than that) will be characterized by the worst or best elements, depending on how the Media want to spin the story.

The Fourth Estate has become the Fifth Column.


I wasn't even realy referencing the 'media' in who is pushing the us versus them element. There are many factions that push this, not to mention, just group peer pressure to take sides. It is also part of our nature to see things in such a dichotomy.

We (and in this case i do mean we, as in the people here and those who think like we do), need to see this for what it is, an attack on individuality and liberty by many forces that want to divide all of us for their own purposes. Individualism and liberty mean less control for the powerful. No, I'm not talking about some big Buildacheeseburger conspiracy to control and enslave people, but the very common action of anyone or group in or or who desires power. The easy way is to get their 'team' rallying to them by creating an enemy.

The way I see it, this is a battle that this country was founded on, liberty versus collectivism. All of these groups, be it BLM, Alt-Right, Antifa, DNC, etc, all desire their own tribe to control, their own collectivism. They want their big central authority to control others and tell others what to do.

Just like in the 1930s Germany when the Communists and Fascists clashed for power. Neither side represented Liberty and people then would have been best served to stand together against both of them versus siding up with one or the other against the opposite side.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 13, 2017, 07:06:01 PM
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5990a4bb1500007d208b6595.jpeg?ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)

He got tackled by a girl!

Obvious caption, here but I'll let you do it, so I don't get banned.

The comment above, apparently missed:  Kessler just proved his point the cops were complicit in the violence yesterday, by allowing this today.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 07:06:17 PM
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5990a4bb1500007d208b6595.jpeg?ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)

He got tackled by a girl!

Obvious caption, here but I'll let you do it, so I don't get banned.

As Neil Young once said..... Four dead in Ohio...
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 07:07:53 PM
The Declaration laid out the fundamental bases for the later agreement. The concept of unalienable rights endowed by our Creator, and the Right to throw off the bonds of government which no longer served the ends of protecting those rights. At that point, there was no power justly derived from the consent of the governed: the governed did not consent any longer. The very fundamental logic of throwing off the British Monarchy is just as valid in the negation of any other compact. Aside from the obvious and egregious insult to hundreds of thousands who gave their lives in the pursuit of defending their homeland after the Secession, you can tell that to California (where you will find both steers and bleep), because they are on their way to lighting that bonfire again.

Union was a one-way door, and the Declaration of Independence doesn't cut it because the colonies weren't cutting loose from an agreement they voluntarily entered into. 

The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution - otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Sometimes that's what it takes, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can slap some lipstick on that pig and call it anything else. 

There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 13, 2017, 07:21:23 PM
Union was a one-way door, and the Declaration of Independence doesn't cut it because the colonies weren't cutting loose from an agreement they voluntarily entered into. 

The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution - otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Sometimes that's what it takes, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can slap some lipstick on that pig and call it anything else. 

There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union.

Its almost as hard to get in as it is to get out. It also requires everybody else to vote.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 07:44:08 PM
Union was a one-way door, and the Declaration of Independence doesn't cut it because the colonies weren't cutting loose from an agreement they voluntarily entered into. 

The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution - otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Sometimes that's what it takes, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can slap some lipstick on that pig and call it anything else. 

There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union.

There is the often not mentioned document in these discussions, The Articles of Confederation.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: don-o on August 13, 2017, 07:53:03 PM
The problem here is the constant associating 'we' with any of this. This isn't an 'us versus them' game and if you don't like Antifa/BLM you must support the other side, or vice versa. The same with the monument issue. Just because X groups supports keeping it up does not mean you have to be in any associated or even feel the need to defend them.

The way I see it, all of those groups have nothing to do with myself or any of my beliefs and they can all pound sand for all I care.

And to even take sides because one side got the crowns permission to protest on the crown's land and the other didn't?  That doesn't make either group worthy of defending or standing up for in any way.

There is no we in any of those groups yesterday. (at least I hope not)

Principles, not personalities...not even loathesome personalities and political positions

I expect statists to blithely ignore the First Amendment as exigent circumstances arise. After all, "some animals are more equal that others." - /G. Orwell

I do not march to that drumbeat.



Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 07:56:15 PM
Another video of the car ramming the protestors. Warning, very graphic which is why I'm not embedding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcKpsM1zi1g
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 08:01:43 PM
I like this one.

Same.

Remember when people used to say that the only good Nazi was a dead one?

Now they claim the mantle of Trump's base.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 08:08:26 PM
Another video of the car ramming the protestors. Warning, very graphic which is why I'm not embedding it.

The lady who was in between the black truck and the driver's car when he backed up is lucky to have survived.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Another video of the car ramming the protestors. Warning, very graphic which is why I'm not embedding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcKpsM1zi1g

Did someone lose a foot?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 08:12:15 PM
Union was a one-way door, and the Declaration of Independence doesn't cut it because the colonies weren't cutting loose from an agreement they voluntarily entered into. 

The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution - otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Sometimes that's what it takes, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can slap some lipstick on that pig and call it anything else. 

There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union.
All those assertions you claim seem so certain the way you state them, yet that is all they are, assertions/opinions/manure.

Point to the place in the Constitution that backup those arguments.  You cannot as it does not exist.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 08:13:45 PM
The lady who was in between the black truck and the driver's car when he backed up is lucky to have survived.

I think the one they were trying to resuscitate at the 6:40 mark was the one who died. What little you can see, she fits the pictures of the young lady who was murdered by Fields.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 13, 2017, 08:14:42 PM
All those assertions you claim seem so certain the way you state them, yet that is all they are, assertions/opinions/manure.

Point to the place in the Constitution that backup those arguments.  You cannot as it does not exist.

I'm pretty sure it was tried.

And it failed.

So the practical experiment proved that your view fails the real life test.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:15:08 PM
Did someone lose a foot?

I thought it was a red lined show is all.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 08:17:06 PM
Another video of the car ramming the protestors. Warning, very graphic which is why I'm not embedding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcKpsM1zi1g
coming up from behind a car that just ran over people is a really stupid move.  Like walking up to a man shooting people.  Not heroic at all.  Just stupid.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 08:17:46 PM
I think the one they were trying to resuscitate at the 6:40 mark was the one who died. What little you can see, she fits the pictures of the young lady who was murdered by Fields.

Her brains were all over the pavement. Terrible.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:18:10 PM
coming up from behind a car that just ran over people is a really stupid move.  Like walking up to a man shooting people.  Not heroic at all.  Just stupid.

There was a whole lot of stupid out there.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 08:19:11 PM
There was a whole lot of stupid out there.

Goes without saying.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 08:19:36 PM
coming up from behind a car that just ran over people is a really stupid move.  Like walking up to a man shooting people.  Not heroic at all.  Just stupid.

In a crisis mode, people don't think rationally and weigh all the options. It is easy to watch a video after the fact and analyze what people should have done. it is another thing to be involved in the middle of a situation that happens in fractions of a second at a time, with adrenaline pumping, people screaming, and everything moving quickly- and you are just an average Joe with no training or experience in crisis situations.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 13, 2017, 08:22:40 PM
I'm pretty sure it was tried.

And it failed.

So the practical experiment proved that your view fails the real life test.
stupid argument.  Sorta like saying you cannot keep what you own because a thief stole from someone else, so keeping your possessions safe 'fails the real life test'.

We have a law called the Constitution.  That is our real dictate.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:23:50 PM
Goes without saying.

First comment under that vid.


amy jenkins
15 hours ago
Whoever was driving is an American Hero !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 08:24:32 PM
First comment under that vid.


amy jenkins
15 hours ago
Whoever was driving is an American Hero !!!!!!!!

Yep, a lot of stupid going around there, on all sides.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 08:27:06 PM
First comment under that vid.


amy jenkins
15 hours ago
Whoever was driving is an American Hero !!!!!!!!

Sick

Unfortunately I've seen a lot of comments like that the past 24 hours.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 08:27:26 PM
I think the one they were trying to resuscitate at the 6:40 mark was the one who died. What little you can see, she fits the pictures of the young lady who was murdered by Fields.

At the 17 second mark, you can see her lying by the passenger side of the car near the rear wheel, before he backs up.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 08:29:19 PM
This would all go away if the MSM treated it like Benghazi.   Or if President Trump will Tweet he is bombing NOKO in the morning.

I think a Trump Tweet is in order.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 08:31:44 PM
Other than the obvious mayhem, what I find most disturbing about the video is the lack of action/control by the police. Most of them are milling around doing nothing.  They're not rendering aid and aren't even moving people out of the streets or doing anything close to crowd control until other vehicles arrive.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 08:33:51 PM

I wasn't even realy referencing the 'media' in who is pushing the us versus them element. There are many factions that push this, not to mention, just group peer pressure to take sides. It is also part of our nature to see things in such a dichotomy.

We (and in this case i do mean we, as in the people here and those who think like we do), need to see this for what it is, an attack on individuality and liberty by many forces that want to divide all of us for their own purposes. Individualism and liberty mean less control for the powerful. No, I'm not talking about some big Buildacheeseburger conspiracy to control and enslave people, but the very common action of anyone or group in or or who desires power. The easy way is to get their 'team' rallying to them by creating an enemy.

The way I see it, this is a battle that this country was founded on, liberty versus collectivism. All of these groups, be it BLM, Alt-Right, Antifa, DNC, etc, all desire their own tribe to control, their own collectivism. They want their big central authority to control others and tell others what to do.

Just like in the 1930s Germany when the Communists and Fascists clashed for power. Neither side represented Liberty and people then would have been best served to stand together against both of them versus siding up with one or the other against the opposite side.
You get it. The media are doing what they ever do--selling a product--in this case, the conflict.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 08:38:39 PM
Other than the obvious mayhem, what I find most disturbing about the video is the lack of action/control by the police. Most of them are milling around doing nothing.  They're not rendering aid and aren't even moving people out of the streets or doing anything close to crowd control until other vehicles arrive.

I heard it mentioned even that there should have been roadblocks.

Well, there are plenty of examples where there are roadblocks nowadays, sports events. I'm unsure about protests but they will start to be there now.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 13, 2017, 08:38:52 PM
The comment above, apparently missed:  Kessler just proved his point the cops were complicit in the violence yesterday, by allowing this today.

It's a strange world isn't it?  The group that is particularly anti-cop was allowed to attack the other group, who I assume is fairly anti-cop, but by default rather than plan.  Three opposing groups.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 13, 2017, 08:40:26 PM
And when the woman attacked him that people are mentioning, I mean, as if a man is going to hit a woman.  In this case,  I doubt it especially with the police around.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 08:44:31 PM
It's a strange world isn't it?  The group that is particularly anti-cop was allowed to attack the other group, who I assume is fairly anti-cop, but by default rather than plan.  Three opposing groups.

Strange?

I find it...inspiring.  :laugh:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 08:49:43 PM
It's a strange world isn't it?  The group that is particularly anti-cop was allowed to attack the other group, who I assume is fairly anti-cop, but by default rather than plan.  Three opposing groups.

One of the problems is the coverage given to this event. It was plain to see that the police did little to keep the conflicting groups apart and that will only embolden future conflicts elsewhere.   There is a similar event going on in Seattle, where the police are keeping far right and far left groups apart. You're not hearing much about that, because there's no 'excitement' to report.   We definitely need the law and order Trump promised during the campaign.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/msnbc-goes-live-tense-seattle-222826360.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 08:52:06 PM
Union was a one-way door, and the Declaration of Independence doesn't cut it because the colonies weren't cutting loose from an agreement they voluntarily entered into. 

The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution - otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Sometimes that's what it takes, but don't fool yourself into thinking you can slap some lipstick on that pig and call it anything else. 

There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union.
If this statement is true:
Quote
That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
against the depredations of a Monarchy, it is equally true against any compact not honored.

The statement either expresses a fundamental truth, one which legitimizes our entire existence as a country, or those points are invalid.

If they are truth, then they are truth at any time, and in any context.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 08:59:33 PM
Quote
Interesting.  This would explain your sympathy for the KKK.  I've heard the same stories from my Florida relatives.  However, that in no way absolves the Klan for their detestable history.

The key thing to keep in mind is the KKK of today is not the KKK of years gone by.

Quote
Some?  Don't try to minimize it.  Lynching one was too many

I disagree.The last lynching I know of in this county was back in the late 20's or early 30's,and the lynchee was an adult black that raped and murdered a slow-witted little white guy under 10 years of age. IMHO,they should have cut him down at the last moment,revived him,and then hanged him again.

And "yes",they did know they had the right guy because he and the victims family lived up the same road,both had walked to the local grocery store at roughly the same time that afternoon,and when they went to his house the groceries she had been sent to pick up were in his house,and so was the candy she had bought.


Quote
Bullshit.  They lynched blacks because they could, regardless of whatever trumped up charge they could come up with.  And any sheriff refusing to arrest an accused rapist or murderer would find a noose around his neck as well.  Do you really deep down believe this lie you are peddling?

One thing you need to understand right now is that I don't lie,bubba. You are obviously one of those shitheads that bases their "FACTS" on what they have read and been told by their teebees. I'm not. I have talked with people who were alive at the time and knew what was going on. 

You obviously also don't know the power local sheriff's wielded in rural areas right up until recently. They did whatever the hell it was they wanted to do ,and nobody cared as long as they made sure the "power players" got what they wanted.

Quote
It's all about fear, power, and scapegoating a group of people.

"Nobie nos,de trubbles ahb seed.........."

Imagine all those black people being murdered every day,with nobody caring or even being arrested for it! Why,there musta been MILLIONS of them!

Where are they all buried,Bubba? If the racist whites in the south,and we ALL know they were ALL racist murderers,don't we,were free to kill as many as they wanted at any time with no bag limit,how come there are so many blacks still alive and running around today?

Quote
Let me get this right.  You are seriously suggesting that the FBI/Justice Department - not the Klan - was responsible for the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing in 1963?  Wow.  Just wow.

You can bet money on it. The head Feeb in charge of investigating the Klan back then pretty much admitted it while the movie made from his book "Mississippi Burning" was made that the two missing "civil rights workers" that was the focus of that book and movie were in reality two instigators the Feebs hired to go down there and stir up trouble in order to justify bringing the Feebs in. When they had a hard time renting rooms in a local motel,he said the alleged Justice Department told him "You have an unlimited budget. Buy the motel if that is what you have to do."

BTW,the two missing/murdered "Civil Rights Workers" were in reality communist agitators from NYC. One was Jewish and had a beard and long hair,and the other was a arrogant black with an Afro from NYC,and they were sent down there with pockets full of cash to pay people to register to vote,and they were driving a brand new car with air-conditioning. Almost nobody local had air-conditioned cars OR houses at the time. In other words,they did everything they could do to build up resentment and hate in order to be attacked.

No,this didn't and doesn't justify murdering them,but I have VERY little sympathy for someone that asks for trouble and then gets it. You bought the ticket,so take the damn ride!

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 09:00:46 PM
You know, if you change the words Klan to Cosa Nostra and northerners to aristocracy, you have the identical origin story of the Mafia.  :shrug:

@EC

That's probably true of people and governments all over the world. Human nature is human nature.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 09:01:02 PM
One of the problems is the coverage given to this event. It was plain to see that the police did little to keep the conflicting groups apart and that will only embolden future conflicts elsewhere.   There is a similar event going on in Seattle, where the police are keeping far right and far left groups apart. You're not hearing much about that, because there's no 'excitement' to report.   We definitely need the law and order Trump promised during the campaign.

[url]https://www.yahoo.com/tv/msnbc-goes-live-tense-seattle-222826360.html[/url]


It is about to go down on 9/11 down at Texas A&M. Some of these same groups are planning a 'White Lives Matter' event and everyone on all sides are already gearing up and arming up.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Activist-White-Lives-Matters-event-planned-at-11806903.php

This time with almost a month's notice to prepare.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 09:03:47 PM
Here is what Andrew Jackson said about succession.


But each State having expressly parted with so many powers as to constitute jointly with the other States a single nation, cannot from that period possess any right to secede, because such secession does not break a league, but destroys the unity of a nation, and any injury to that unity is not only a breach which would result from the contravention of a compact, but it is an offense against the whole Union.  To say that any State may at pleasure secede from the Union, is to say that the United States are not a nation because it would be a solecism to contend that any part of a nation might dissolve its connection with the other parts, to their injury or ruin, without committing any offense. Secession, like any other revolutionary act, may be morally justified by the extremity of oppression; but to call it a constitutional right, is confounding the meaning of terms, and can only be done through gross error, or to deceive those who are willing to assert a right, but would pause before they made a revolution, or incur the penalties consequent upon a failure
@kevindavis

I don't give a rabid rats ass what Andrew Jackson said about it. What matters is what was in the Articles of Confederacy that the original 13 states agreed to and signed in agreement with.

It was a VOLUNTARY union. Look up the definition of the word "voluntary" when you have the time.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 09:06:29 PM
Probably the best photo from yesterday. 

(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20770473_805895859590455_4259490074476118268_n.jpg?oh=ca0c025cc8e939c7cff78e197a7d3763&oe=5A3402F4)

@AbaraXas

Is that camera in the center of his chest typical of what cops wear today?

I ask because it seems kind of big to me.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 09:09:35 PM
I especially liked the film clip where one of them was punching a girl.

@Hoodat

I saw that too. It was aired several times. If I were that guy, would have put her lights out. First of all,she looked to be bigger than him,and secondly,she threw the first punch. When you throw the first punch,you have nothing to bitch about when a few come back your way.

And truth to tell,it looked to me like almost all of the guys were punching like girls. Never seen such a pack of wusses all in one place in my entire life.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 09:10:11 PM
@

Is that camera in the center of his chest typical of what cops wear today?

I ask because it seems kind of big to me.

Why would AbaraXas know. He ain't a cop.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 13, 2017, 09:12:08 PM
Why would AbaraXas know. He ain't a cop.

@Wingnut

I was just guessing he lives in a city like most people,and is more familiar with what equipment city cops carry than I am.

It's not important,anyway. Just something I was curious about.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 09:13:35 PM
@AbaraXas

Is that camera in the center of his chest typical of what cops wear today?

I ask because it seems kind of big to me.


Yep. I'm sure most of the size is for batteries and memory.  I've seen smaller ones, but it seems those would have short battery life. 

The one in that pic seems to be common from other images I'm finding.

(http://blog.quantum.com/wp-content/uploads/ows_138249664029519.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 09:14:46 PM
Why would AbaraXas know. He ain't a cop.

I have Bing. :)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 09:20:30 PM
@Wingnut

I was just guessing he lives in a city like most people,and is more familiar with what equipment city cops carry than I am.

It's not important,anyway. Just something I was curious about.
Sorry.  Fitting Cops with Cams are all the rage now.  That's how they found out why Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 09:23:05 PM
What matters is what was in the Articles of Confederacy that the original 13 states agreed to and signed in agreement with.

It was a VOLUNTARY union. Look up the definition of the word "voluntary" when you have the time.

Small problem.  They volunteered to enter the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, key words being perpetual union.  Later, that was superseded by the US Constitution, which they ratified, and had an Article 1 Section 10 stating -

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 09:23:27 PM
Sorry.  Fitting Cops with Cams are all the rage now.  That's how they found out why Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond
I was out for a bit. What happened there?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
Sorry.  Fitting Cops with Cams are all the rage now.  That's how they found out why Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond

oh wingy that person you named=another, killed me   :laugh:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 09:25:58 PM
Small problem.  They volunteered to enter the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, key words being perpetual union.  Later, that was superseded by the US Constitution, which they ratified, and had an Article 1 Section 10 stating -

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
I still fail to see where that precludes an exit--at which point the State would be free to do as its people please. They just would not be one of the United States any more.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 09:27:58 PM
I was out for a bit. What happened there?

I might have been redacted?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 13, 2017, 09:38:31 PM
I might have been redacted?
Again?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EC on August 13, 2017, 09:39:42 PM
@EC

That's probably true of people and governments all over the world. Human nature is human nature.

@sneakypete

Yep, my friend. People are people, and the one universal truth of people is anything they organise, no matter how noble or inspiring, eventually becomes evil.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 09:44:31 PM
@sneakypete

Yep, my friend. People are people, and the one universal truth of people is anything they organise, no matter how noble or inspiring, eventually becomes evil.

I wouldn't go that far, but I certainly think Lord Acton's maxim still hold plenty of water.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 10:04:41 PM
Again?

I am as shocked as you are. :shrug:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 10:12:05 PM
I still fail to see where that precludes an exit--at which point the State would be free to do as its people please. They just would not be one of the United States any more.

OK...that's the point of the forum...having discourse.  Just pointing out reasons why secession may have been null.  I was a navy brat - born in Florida, lived in Puerto Rico, and grew up in Maryland, living in Kansas.  My parents were raised in Virginia and Connecticut.  I'm basically the man from nowhere, with no dog in the fight.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Fishrrman on August 13, 2017, 10:32:09 PM
edpc wrote above (quoting the Declaration):
"Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."


The same guy who wrote those lines above, also wrote these lines below:
====================
"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate, than that these people are to be free; nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion have drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 10:40:42 PM
edpc wrote above (quoting the Declaration):
"Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."


The same guy who wrote those lines above, also wrote these lines below:
====================
"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate, than that these people are to be free; nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion have drawn indelible lines of distinction between them."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Yes, but we endeavor to reach beyond the hypocrisy of some founders and realize the potential of the words, instead of succumbing to the cornerstone of the confederacy, as Alexander Stephens described it.

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 10:40:49 PM
Seeing some of the comments on the videos is highly disturbing to me. Cheering on running someone over with a car? These are supposed "conservatives"?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 10:42:51 PM
Seeing some of the comments on the videos is highly disturbing to me. Cheering on running someone over with a car? These are supposed "conservatives"?

I felt sorry for the car.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Oceander on August 13, 2017, 10:43:26 PM
I felt sorry for the car.

Yup.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 13, 2017, 10:45:05 PM
I felt sorry for the car.

Moron ruined his car, his life, and ended someone else's life. In a split second decision. Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend, or hanging at the beach.

We all have choices.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 10:47:23 PM
Moron ruined his car, his life, and ended someone else's life. In a split second decision. Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend, or hanging at the beach.

We all have choices.

 Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend

Or a boyfriend,   you know those Nazis and their tendency to be latent homosexuals.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 10:48:57 PM
Moron ruined his car, his life, and ended someone else's life. In a split second decision. Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend, or hanging at the beach.

We all have choices.

Life is full of choices.  Some chose poorly.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 10:50:16 PM
Moron ruined his car, his life, and ended someone else's life. In a split second decision. Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend, or hanging at the beach.

We all have choices.

I've seen the fascist/white supremacist groupie chicks.  They don't look like Fairuza Balk in American History X.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 13, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
I've seen the fascist/white supremacist groupie chicks.  They don't look like Fairuza Balk in American History X.

Well most of them are latent homosexuals anyway (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 10:57:18 PM
Well most of them are latent homosexuals anyway (not that there's anything wrong with that).


Fair enough is you can vouch for them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: bigheadfred on August 13, 2017, 11:03:35 PM
oh crap i am going to bed i thought it said latex homosexuals
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 13, 2017, 11:06:07 PM
oh crap i am going to bed i thought it said latex homosexuals

Those are probably available in the Castro District.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 13, 2017, 11:14:39 PM
oh crap i am going to bed i thought it said latex homosexuals



At this point, the road crew, as all road crews must from time to time,
borrow some of the big rock group's equipment and have a blues jam
session, indicating to the kneeling maidens that they are endowed with
a great deal of raw talent, as well as massive meat....

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 13, 2017, 11:17:24 PM
(https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/20767764_692955980910440_3219941889597621906_n.png?oh=a157104b3d5b8d674492159e510118ea&oe=5A243282)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:17:25 AM
Yep. I'm sure most of the size is for batteries and memory.  I've seen smaller ones, but it seems those would have short battery life. 

The one in that pic seems to be common from other images I'm finding.

([url]http://blog.quantum.com/wp-content/uploads/ows_138249664029519.jpg[/url])


@AbaraXas

Thanks.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:20:56 AM
Sorry.  Fitting Cops with Cams are all the rage now.  That's how they found out why Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond

@Wingnut

I know,and IMHO any cop in a populated area that doesn't wear one is nuts. You can play the film and the truth is there for everyone to see.

The only cops I have any contact with are local rural cops,and none of them wear the cameras because we haven't had the sort of problems most cities have.

It's coming,though. It's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:25:21 AM
Quote
Small problem.  They volunteered to enter the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, key words being perpetual union.

Key words being "They VOLUNTEERED".

 
Quote
Later, that was superseded by the US Constitution, which they ratified, and had an Article 1 Section 10 stating -

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

True,but once they exercised their RIGHT to secede from the Union,they were no longer states,and no clause of the US Constitution applied to them.

The Union was like a marriage. Promises were made and agreements reached. If at any time in the future the Union violated the rights of the states,the states had a right to get a divorce (secede).
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Rivergirl on August 14, 2017, 07:27:07 AM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 07:27:29 AM
I wonder if his car had a backup camera?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 07:37:17 AM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO

The coming plight of all decent people.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:39:57 AM
@sneakypete

Yep, my friend. People are people, and the one universal truth of people is anything they organise, no matter how noble or inspiring, eventually becomes evil.

@EC

If there is ONE "universal truth" that applies to all people and all nations everywhere it is that people who seek power over others are people who love having power over others. They might claim,and even believe themselves that they want to lead because they want to make things better for everyone,but that is only a small part of the bigger truth,which is they seek power so they can exercise power.

Up until recent decades,America was pretty unique in that we had the ability and the will to limit those who sought power and abused it. Those days are over. The REAL power in America today lies in the hands of the media and the mobs they agitate. Elected leaders are mere figureheads.

To put it in plainer language,we are now ruled by Mob Rule,and the people who own and control the media own and control the mobs.

Proof of that is even Trump is afraid to mention black or leftist violence by name,and the media is howling after him like a wolf pack that smells blood,trying to get him to name the "other hate groups whose violence he mentioned".

It is now no longer acceptable to criticize or demonize anyone but conservatives,and as much as white conservatives are abused,non-white conservatives almost need to be put into the political equivalent of witness protection programs to protect them from physical attack by the "peace-loving left".

IF/WHEN the revolution finally happens,the very first people that need to tracked down and hanged where found are the members of the media. The ONLY difference between them and the Nazi Propaganda Ministry of the Nazi's is the Nazi's loved snappy uniforms and had an official public leader that made public appearances and gave speeches. We have Soros and a few others,and they hide in the shadows and send others out to do their dirty work for them and to take all the risks.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 07:40:58 AM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO

Lots of mixed messages. Trump is a fairly strong Israel supporter, and so is Steve Bannon. Hard to figure out.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:54:44 AM
Quote
edpc wrote above (quoting the Declaration):

@edpc  @Fishrrman

Quote
"Except the Confederacy didn't believe in this part....
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Complete and utter BullBush. You obviously believe the secession was about slavery,and it wasn't. No bigger authority on the issue than Abraham Lincoln himself said he would have been content to allow slavery to continue to exist if that would have been the price paid to maintain the union.

In FACT, General US Grant,the commanding General of the Union Army owned slaves himself,and didn't free them until after the war ended and a law was passed making it illegal to own slaves.

In FACT,Lincoln didn't free a single slave in his life.

In FACT,the Emancipation Proclamation did NOT end slavery and did not free ONE SINGLE SLAVE because it wasn't anything more than a tactic used to try to get the slaves in the south to revolt and start murdering their masters in order to weaken the Confederate Army due to Officers deserting to go home to defend their families.

The ONLY slaves "freed" by the Emancipation Proclamation were the slaves held in the south,and at that time the southern states had already seceded,and Lincoln and the northern courts had no dominion over them.

Yet school children have been taught those lies were the truth ever since Mr.Lincolns War ended,and are still being taught that lie today.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:59:26 AM
Seeing some of the comments on the videos is highly disturbing to me. Cheering on running someone over with a car? These are supposed "conservatives"?

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

No,they're not. They don't even claim to be conservatives. The ones cheering are proud to announce they are Nazi's or some other form of cretin.

It is the MEDIA that calls them conservatives,and unfortunately,we have no one with balls in public office because if we did,they would stand up on their hind legs and call them on it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 07:59:29 AM
The Union was like a marriage. Promises were made and agreements reached. If at any time in the future the Union violated the rights of the states,the states had a right to get a divorce (secede).

Interesting example.  When you're married and things go badly, one partner just can't say 'OK, we're divorced' and walk away without consequence.  Especially if it's contested by the other.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 08:02:28 AM
Moron ruined his car, his life, and ended someone else's life. In a split second decision. Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend, or hanging at the beach.

We all have choices.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

I am NOT defending that guy or excusing him,but I'm not so sure he had any choices.  I strongly suspect he is legally and actually insane,and incapable of being rational.

Having said that,I sincerely hope he remains locked away for the rest of his life. It may not be PC to say this,but people that far gone to sea never find their way back to shore. He will never be a rational being if he lives another hundred years. The BEST he can be is sedated.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 08:03:49 AM
Could have been hanging out with a girlfriend

Or a boyfriend,   you know those Nazis and their tendency to be latent homosexuals.

@dfwgator

That does seem to be a "thing" with them,doesn't it?

I think it must be all that leather. Brings them in like bees to sugar water.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 08:05:28 AM
oh crap i am going to bed i thought it said latex homosexuals


@bigheadfred

Uhhhh,"sweet dreams",Fred,  :laugh:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 08:08:32 AM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO

@Rivergirl

Trump has Jewish children and grandchildren,and you are STILL so freaking desperate to condemn him that you dare to call him anti-Semitic?

Have you people no sense of shame at all?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 08:10:00 AM
Complete and utter BullBush. You obviously believe the secession was about slavery,and it wasn't.

Not completely, but it was a huge component and you don't have to look any further than the Cornerstone Speech given by Alexander Stephens to know it.  The idea a group of people can be subjugated because of their supposed natural inferiority is absurd and obscene.  Quit defending the indefensible.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
Interesting example.  When you're married and things go badly, one partner just can't say 'OK, we're divorced' and walk away without consequence.  Especially if it's contested by the other.

@edpc

Sure you can. Marriage doesn't turn you into a slave,even if it seems that way. You may still be LEGALLY married,but there is no law requiring you to live with your spouse,and I am betting a good lawyer that wasn't afraid of being murdered by divorce lawyers could make and win a case that it is un-constitutional for one marriage partner to refuse to allow the other marriage partner a divorce because that amounts to slavery.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 08:15:06 AM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......

Slurs against Hillary Rodham Clinton???  What slurs?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Suppressed on August 14, 2017, 08:15:56 AM
Slurs against Hillary Rodham Clinton???  What slurs?

You cut the quote too soon.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
Lots of mixed messages. Trump is a fairly strong Israel supporter, and so is Steve Bannon. Hard to figure out.

Trump and Bannon are strong supporters of anything advantageous to themselves. Both men seem to love surrounding themselves with alt right antisemites.

From what I'm seeing it looks like most "conservatives" are sympathizers.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 08:21:06 AM
You cut the quote too soon.

No, not really.  The rest of the list has been disproven ages ago.  Claiming that candidate Trump slurred Clinton , well, this is new.  At least in the public forum.   
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 08:29:02 AM
@edpc

Sure you can. Marriage doesn't turn you into a slave,even if it seems that way. You may still be LEGALLY married,but there is no law requiring you to live with your spouse,and I am betting a good lawyer that wasn't afraid of being murdered by divorce lawyers could make and win a case that it is un-constitutional for one marriage partner to refuse to allow the other marriage partner a divorce because that amounts to slavery.

You're conveniently leaving out the part where I said you couldn't do it without consequence.  Unless you have a prenup, 50% of your assets belong to the spouse.  If children are involved, you're responsible for support.  Since you'd still be legally married, you'd be punished for bigamy if you entered another.  In that era, there were consequences for adultery, as well.  The union wasn't set up like a marriage under sharia law where you could say 'I divorce thee' three times and be done with it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 08:39:38 AM
Trump and Bannon are strong supporters of anything advantageous to themselves. Both men seem to love surrounding themselves with alt right antisemites.

From what I'm seeing it looks like most "conservatives" are sympathizers.

I'm still trying to figure out if that is true or not.  What "alt-right antisemites"?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 08:41:44 AM
I'm still trying to figure out if that is true or not.  What "alt-right antisemites"?

If you haven't figured it out yet consider yourself among their sympathizers and put me on ignore.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 08:51:24 AM
It's a strange world isn't it?  The group that is particularly anti-cop was allowed to attack the other group, who I assume is fairly anti-cop, but by default rather than plan.  Three opposing groups.
From this article today, it appears the lawful assembly was shut down prior to it formally was to begin, yet an unlawful assembly was allowed to proceed two hours after the streets were ordered to be cleared.

Smells very fishy here.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/08/is_virginia_governor_terry_mcauliffe_culpable_in_charlottesville_riot_.html
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Restored on August 14, 2017, 08:56:25 AM
The same alt.left fascists were attacking the police at the previous rally. If the death had not happened, I bet they would have attacked the police again. Ironic that the police were protecting their attackers.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 09:02:59 AM
Interesting example.  When you're married and things go badly, one partner just can't say 'OK, we're divorced' and walk away without consequence.  Especially if it's contested by the other.
Of course one person does not need the consent of the other to divorce.  Of course it is not as easy if they both do not agree.

@sneakypete 's example of divorce is as good a synopsis of secession in this country as any.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 09:07:12 AM
  The idea a group of people can be subjugated because of their supposed natural inferiority is absurd and obscene.  Quit defending the indefensible.
Your moral horse is riding pretty high, isn't it?

You are taking what @sneakypete said (which happens to be factually true) and twisted it to somehow claim he is defending slavery.

You should be working for CNN or MSNBC.  You have your agenda, and just need to find ways to proclaim it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 09:19:33 AM
Yeah, right.  The Constitution is an agreement amongst equals and does not contain a secession clause.

@Oceander

As has been pointed out to you already, the Constitution also does not contain a right-to-vote clause.  According to your logic, anyone voting is in open rebellion against the Constitution.

If the Constitution was intended to legally bind States under it's rule for eternity, then it would have stated as such.  Similar language can be found in the Articles of Confederation, but was pointedly removed from our Constitution.  It was done so for a reason, so that States would not be bound for eternity, but would always retain their right to self-determination above and beyond the power of the remaining States.


The Declaration of Independence came before the Constitution, not after, so the Constitution trumps the Declaraton.

The Declaration of Independence is a treatise of intent.  It demonstrates that our Founding Fathers believed that each colony should not forcibly be bound by government rule, but should have the right to self-determination.  That right did not die when the Constitution was ratified, given the only constraint being that each state have a republican form of government.


Union was a one-way door

Your basis?  Simply repeating the claim does not make it true.

(See:  Logical fallacy - begging the question)


The only way out with honor is with the consent of the other states - a so-called Velvet Revolution

Again, your basis.


otherwise, it's just a violent rebellion.

Ah, violent.  Funny you should add that qualifier, because in the case of the Commonwealth of Virginia, the only violence that ensued was when it was invaded without provocation by a hostile army from the North.


There is no right, legal or moral, to unilaterally secede from the Union. 

Yet Virginia was allowed to secede from the Articles of Confederation.  Go figure.

Again, you have zero legal basis for your claim.   None.  Zip.  Nada.  And the fact that you falsely portray it as such removes any claims of morality upon it.  Moral right?  Seriously?  That's funny.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 09:36:29 AM
Your moral horse is riding pretty high, isn't it?

If you read that speech and don't find it the least bit troubling, your moral horse should be in a glue bottle.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 09:36:29 AM
I have Bing. :)

Ditto.   Google is the devil.  Any time I hear someone say "Hey Google", I tell them to ask Google what Bing would say.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 09:38:20 AM
If you read that speech and don't find it the least bit troubling, your moral horse should be in a glue bottle.
Thanks, CNN.

You made my point.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 09:42:01 AM
@Oceander

As has been pointed out to you already, the Constitution also does not contain a right-to-vote clause.  According to your logic, anyone voting is in open rebellion against the Constitution.

If the Constitution was intended to legally bind States under it's rule for eternity, then it would have stated as such.  Similar language can be found in the Articles of Confederation, but was pointedly removed from our Constitution.  It was done so for a reason, so that States would not be bound for eternity, but would always retain their right to self-determination above and beyond the power of the remaining States.


The Declaration of Independence is a treatise of intent.  It demonstrates that our Founding Fathers believed that each colony should not forcibly be bound by government rule, but should have the right to self-determination.  That right did not die when the Constitution was ratified, given the only constraint being that each state have a republican form of government.


Your basis?  Simply repeating the claim does not make it true.

(See:  Logical fallacy - begging the question)


Again, your basis.


Ah, violent.  Funny you should add that qualifier, because in the case of the Commonwealth of Virginia, the only violence that ensued was when it was invaded without provocation by a hostile army from the North.


Yet Virginia was allowed to secede from the Articles of Confederation.  Go figure.

Again, you have zero legal basis for your claim.   None.  Zip.  Nada.  And the fact that you falsely portray it as such removes any claims of morality upon it.  Moral right?  Seriously?  That's funny.

Do states have a right to secede?

Do counties have a right to secede from states?

Do towns have a right to secede from counties?

Do neighborhoods have a right to secede from towns?

Do individuals have a right to secede from towns?

We can play this game all day if you want to.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 09:43:27 AM
Now, a mayor in KY. wants to remove statues in his town.

Some have floated that this could be a 'honeypot operation', I don't buy that but these jokers, the Klan and Neo-Nazi types, do more damage to the cause than liberals, anarchists could ever do, at least in the span of a few days in regards to these statues and heritage.

Again, following the Seattle story, that Joey Gibson organizer, doesn't allow these types to participate in events he puts on.  No Nazi flags, nothing like that from what I can tell.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 09:47:06 AM
From this article today, it appears the lawful assembly was shut down prior to it formally was to begin, yet an unlawful assembly was allowed to proceed two hours after the streets were ordered to be cleared.

Smells very fishy here.
[url]http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/08/is_virginia_governor_terry_mcauliffe_culpable_in_charlottesville_riot_.html[/url]


@IsailedawayfromFR

Not for Charlottesville and UVA it isn't. Might as well be "Berkley East".

The cops there do what their bosses tell them to do,just like the cops everywhere else,and the Mayor,city council,and the police chief are  all left-wing whackjobs.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 09:50:06 AM
Trump and Bannon are strong supporters of anything advantageous to themselves. Both men seem to love surrounding themselves with alt right antisemites.

From what I'm seeing it looks like most "conservatives" are sympathizers.

@Cripplecreek

That's because you are a Dim in Republican clothing. You think anyone that doesn't have a Che tattoo is a Nazi. Like all the rest of your kind,you don't think,you "feel".

Calling someone an idiot that accuses a man with Jewish children and grandchildren an "anti-Semite" is almost bragging on them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 09:56:02 AM
Do states have a right to secede?

Yes.  (See:  Amendment X)


Do counties have a right to secede from states?

Not without the consent of that State's legislature as well as the consent of Congress.  (See:  Article 4, Sec 3)


Do towns have a right to secede from counties?

In some states, yes.  Virginia being one.  It depends on each state's law.


Do neighborhoods have a right to secede from towns?

In some states, yes.  It depends on each state's law.


Do individuals have a right to secede from towns?

Individuals are not land.  They are not part of towns.


We can play this game all day if you want to.

I'm not the one here playing the game.  I am asking for someone to cite the legal basis prohibiting a state from seceding.  So far, no one has stepped to the plate.  Instead, I get these silly ladder analogies like the one you gave that are not only full of holes, but is completely devoid of any legal foundation.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 09:58:05 AM
Quote
You're conveniently leaving out the part where I said you couldn't do it without consequence.

You can't get up and go to the bathroom without possible consequences. You might miss a tornado warning or some other announcement you might have needed or wanted to hear. Virtually EVERY decision you make in life has consequences.

However,it's not likely any of them will involve being invaded by a foreign army. Which,after succession,describes the Union Army.


 
Quote
Unless you have a prenup, 50% of your assets belong to the spouse.


The Articles of Confederation amount to a prenup.

 
Quote
If children are involved, you're responsible for support.  Since you'd still be legally married, you'd be punished for bigamy if you entered another.  In that era, there were consequences for adultery, as well.  The union wasn't set up like a marriage under sharia law where you could say 'I divorce thee' three times and be done with it.

You are determined to stretch this thing out to impossible limits in your effort to "prove" you are right,aren't  you?

Nation States,which is what the original 13 Colonies were,and by extension is/was also true for any states joining the Union afterwards, don't have children and they don''t have to ask for permission that was already granted when they signed to document forming the union.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 09:59:11 AM
If you haven't figured it out yet consider yourself among their sympathizers and put me on ignore.

@Cripplecreek

What,and not be able to laugh at you?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 10:02:18 AM
Yes.  (See:  Amendment X)

Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 10:03:37 AM
Individuals are not land.  They are not part of towns.

Really? So I can secede my property from my town and declare myself ruler of WeirdTolkienishFiguresville? Not pay any local taxes! Sweet!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: driftdiver on August 14, 2017, 10:04:53 AM
Trump and Bannon are strong supporters of anything advantageous to themselves. Both men seem to love surrounding themselves with alt right antisemites.

From what I'm seeing it looks like most "conservatives" are sympathizers.

@Cripplecreek

I know you're from Michigan but cmon man.   Trump was successful in NYC.   He knows how to work the system there.   There are a lot of jewish people in a lot of influential positions there.  You cannot get a big project done there if you do not work well with jewish people.   Its ridiculous.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 10:05:39 AM

@IsailedawayfromFR @edpc
Quote
Your moral horse is riding pretty high, isn't it?

You are taking what @sneakypete said (which happens to be factually true) and twisted it to somehow claim he is defending slavery.

The left and other "sensitive fellows" HAVE to take things out of context and twist meanings  in order to justify their brain farts. They are people who don't think,they "FEEL,and "only impolite brutes and other uncivilized people non-Meterosexuals would dare to attack feelings!"


Quote
You should be working for CNN or MSNBC.  You have your agenda, and just need to find ways to proclaim it.

And there you have it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 10:10:19 AM
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 10:10:52 AM
@Oceander

As has been pointed out to you already, the Constitution also does not contain a right-to-vote clause.  According to your logic, anyone voting is in open rebellion against the Constitution.

Quote
If the Constitution was intended to legally bind States under it's rule for eternity, then it would have stated as such.  Similar language can be found in the Articles of Confederation, but was pointedly removed from our Constitution.  It was done so for a reason, so that States would not be bound for eternity, but would always retain their right to self-determination above and beyond the power of the remaining States.


@Hoodat   @Oceander

The Founding Fathers were trying to set up a government that was obedient to the people,not a dictatorship like they were risking their lives to leave. WHY would they fight a war  with England for their Freedom,and then turn around and once again become slaves to the state?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 10:16:34 AM
Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.

@Weird Tolkienish Figure

Ahhh,the old "Might makes right!" excuse!

Did Germany and the USSR have a right to invade and occupy Poland? Since they did,I guess by YOUR standards,they did have that right,huh?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 14, 2017, 10:18:03 AM
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

:2popcorn:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 10:19:28 AM
@Cripplecreek

I know you're from Michigan but cmon man.   Trump was successful in NYC.   He knows how to work the system there.   There are a lot of jewish people in a lot of influential positions there.  You cannot get a big project done there if you do not work well with jewish people.   Its ridiculous.

@Cripplecreek @driftdiver

AND his children and his grandchildren are Jewish.

There is no lie or slur the left,including the Bush Republicans/Pod People won't tell to try to harm the man that is a danger to their power and status as "insiders".
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 14, 2017, 10:22:51 AM
@Cripplecreek @driftdiver

AND his children and his grandchildren are Jewish.

History is rife with instances that prove what you're saying doesn't matter one whit.  People will turn against family, religion, race in order to immerse themselves in an ideology they believe in.

Your argument is a straw man.

Quote
There is no lie or slur the left,including the Bush Republicans/Pod People won't tell to try to harm the man that is a danger to their power and status as "insiders".

Psst...hey Pete...hate to break it to you...Trump is one of those insiders himself.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 10:23:04 AM
On that topic, if one has a chance to see that picture of that African-American police officer again, one of those guys in the background is holding a pretty inflammatory sign about Jews it seems.  These guys are bad and should not be admitted to these marches in my opinion. One can have a different opinion.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 10:26:08 AM
Quote
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

@Sanguine

Of course they had the right to choose. Nobody was forcing them to join at gunpoint. At least not at first. Once the yankees invaded the only choice was to stick together.

Quote
Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

ROFLMAO! Slavery already existed there. What the south was doing was planning on opening trade relations with Cuba and Latin America to counter the boycott the north had put on them. 

And of course once the war ended a number of Confederates left America and went to various Central and South American countries to live.


Quote
Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

What I have trouble understanding why you people have such a hard time understanding the concept of states having rights.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: txradioguy on August 14, 2017, 10:26:44 AM
On that topic, if one has a chance to see that picture of that African-American police officer again, one of those guys in the background is holding a pretty inflammatory sign about Jews it seems.  These guys are bad and should not be admitted to these marches in my opinion. One can have a different opinion.

Seen the pic.  IMHO it's Pulitzer quality just for the silent message it's conveying.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 10:28:54 AM
The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 10:30:35 AM
The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.

Stay out of what you don't know, @TomSea.  If you want to harden attitudes against your stand, this is the way to do it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 10:31:02 AM
Thanks, CNN.

You made my point.

No, you've made mine.  Two of the bloodiest wars in this nation's history were fought - and won -against leaders who based their regimes around racial superiority over others.  Y'all's hero, Robert E. Lee, believed if slavery was supposed to end, god would make it so.  Consider the defeat of his army and destruction of the confederacy that wrath and fulfillment of will.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: driftdiver on August 14, 2017, 10:31:04 AM
History is rife with instances that prove what you're saying doesn't matter one whit.  People will turn against family, religion, race in order to immerse themselves in an ideology they believe in.

Your argument is a straw man.

Psst...hey Pete...hate to break it to you...Trump is one of those insiders himself.

@txradioguy @sneakypete
Yep, the opinion of the Trump haters is impartial and vastly outweighs what our eyes see.  Nope, there is no bias.  Their hate and ego has not made them blind.

Nope, no sirreee    /s

Trump certainly has his problems but to say he's an anti-Semite is ludicrous.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 10:32:27 AM
@Sanguine

Of course they had the right to choose. Nobody was forcing them to join at gunpoint. At least not at first. Once the yankees invaded the only choice was to stick together.

ROFLMAO! Slavery already existed there. What the south was doing was planning on opening trade relations with Cuba and Latin America to counter the boycott the north had put on them. 

And of course once the war ended a number of Confederates left America and went to various Central and South American countries to live.


What I have trouble understanding why you people have such a hard time understanding the concept of states having rights.

@sneakypete, I only have time this morning to make this one comment.  Sorry, but I will be back on this evening.

 I just showed, in black and white, that the states did not have the right to make this decision.  That negates the "states-rights" argument.  Just no real way around that.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.

@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 10:47:46 AM
The left and other "sensitive fellows" HAVE to take things out of context and twist meanings  in order to justify their brain farts. They are people who don't think,they "FEEL,and "only impolite brutes and other uncivilized people non-Meterosexuals would dare to attack feelings!"

Other times, keyboard warriors feel like they can be a Johnny-come-lately to a thread, blitz it with posts in self-aggrandizing large font, and think they have uttered brilliance.   Nobody is impressed with your penchant for ponderous, pretentious, pansophism posting.

Nothing was taken out of context. You said the war was not exclusively about slavery. I agreed, but pointed out how it was a large part of the confederacy's foundation - accurately - based on the words of their Vice President.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 10:52:41 AM
The South was a White Supremacist society; if one makes incendiary remarks about the North, that is one fact that can not be gotten around. Read the remarks of Calhoun, etc. And slavery would have been on the way out eventually. States like NY got rid of slavery exactly for the reason that it enabled slave rebellion. States like SC were really outnumbered by slaves, then, one has to start talking about denying voting rights and right on down the line.

@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 11:04:26 AM
@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.

There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 11:11:04 AM
@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.


I'm not refighting either, but all one needs to do is look at the ordinances of secession of every Confederate state to confirm your point. Almost all listed slavery or equal rights of blacks as their 1st or 2nd reason. Unless one wants to say they were all lying, that's what the Confederate states said themselves, anything else is revisionism.  A few states didn't list any reasons at all in the ordinances but simply said they seceded but the reasons can be found in their legislative sessions debating the issue. Of these, only one, Missouri, listed something else, specifically Federal Soldiers occupying their capitol.

(click on each one to read the full ordinance, only the preamble is shown on the landing page- http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp )

A few pull quotes (most go into a lot more detail over it too):

South Carolina:
Quote
The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows:
"No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.


Mississippi:
Quote
It has grown until it denies the right of property in slaves, and refuses protection to that right on the high seas, in the Territories, and wherever the government of the United States had jurisdiction.
It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion.
It tramples the original equality of the South under foot.
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact, which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain.
It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.


Georgia:
Quote
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.....

...The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization....


Texas:
Quote
....She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery - the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits - a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slaveholding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them? .....



Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
@Sanguine

I don't have a problem with your post.  I'm a born-and-raised Southerner and I love the south.  But I just don't see the point of trying claim slavery had nothing to do with it.  Come on---it did.

I'm not interested in refighting the Civil War.  The Revolutionary War is more interesting to me personally.

I like to say, "Oh, the CW was about states' rights? States' rights to do what?" Of course, we all know the answer was the right to deprive human beings of their rights.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 11:26:23 AM
@TomSea 

You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time.

Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

That moral high horse of yours has no legs, so you might as well jump off.
"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: thackney on August 14, 2017, 11:39:18 AM
"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.


http://slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm

...In 1830, of the 3,568 Northern blacks who remained slaves, more than two-thirds were in New Jersey. The institution was rapidly declining in the 1830s, but not until 1846 was slavery permanently abolished. At the start of the Civil War, New Jersey citizens owned 18 "apprentices for life" (the federal census listed them as "slaves") -- legal slaves by any name.

"New Jersey's emancipation law carefully protected existing property rights. No one lost a single slave, and the right to the services of young Negroes was fully protected. Moreover, the courts ruled that the right was a 'species of property,' transferable 'from one citizen to another like other personal property.' "[10]
Thus "New Jersey retained slaveholding without technically remaining a slave state."...
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 11:51:02 AM
"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.

Runaway slaves were an issue as well. They could be free in the north but courts ruled that they could be taken back south if caught.

Its why there are underground railroad houses around where I live here in Michigan. The anti slavery sentiment was pretty strong here in Michigan so runaway hunters weren't a huge concern
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
[url]http://slavenorth.com/newjersey.htm[/url]

...In 1830, of the 3,568 Northern blacks who remained slaves, more than two-thirds were in New Jersey. The institution was rapidly declining in the 1830s, but not until 1846 was slavery permanently abolished. At the start of the Civil War, New Jersey citizens owned 18 "apprentices for life" (the federal census listed them as "slaves") -- legal slaves by any name.

"New Jersey's emancipation law carefully protected existing property rights. No one lost a single slave, and the right to the services of young Negroes was fully protected. Moreover, the courts ruled that the right was a 'species of property,' transferable 'from one citizen to another like other personal property.' "[10]
Thus "New Jersey retained slaveholding without technically remaining a slave state."...
That is correct, thanks for the info.  Nevertheless, even NJ had technically abolished slavery decades earlier and was in the process of completely eliminating the institution. What they created was some sort of weird "indentured servant" clause, but in effect the people were still slaves. The last 13 slaves/"indentured servants" were freed in 1865.
 Name a southern state that was in the process of abolishing slavery even on NJ's terms.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: thackney on August 14, 2017, 12:03:41 PM
That is correct, thanks for the info.  Nevertheless, even NJ had technically abolished slavery decades earlier and was in the process of completely eliminating the institution. What they created was some sort of weird "indentured servant" clause, but in effect the people were still slaves. The last 13 slaves/"indentured servants" were freed in 1865.


The indentured servants, slaves for a limited time period happened in other Northern States as well.

http://slavenorth.com/paemancip.htm

...Yet the passage of the 1780 act ending slavery in the state reversed this trend and started indentured labor on a sudden, sharp recovery. From fewer than 400 at the end of the Revolution, Philadelphia's indentured servant population reached 2,000 by the end of the century....

....The indenture system in Pennsylvania became more severe after 1780, because the terms of service were longer. Formerly it had been limited to about seven years, and it rarely exceeded four among immigrants. Indentures generally had not lasted past age 21, for males, and 18, for females. This allowed at least the pretense of the bondsman or woman learning a trade (housework, almost always, in the case of the women) in exchange for their labor and being sent out into the world with at least a decade of productive labor or family life ahead. This was no quibble in an age when debility at 40 was common and many laboring people did not live to see 30.

Yet in Pennsylvania after 1780, the bound labor contract began to take 28 as the age of freedom. The abolition act had made it so, setting this as the age of release of children of slaves, and it would have seemed unjustified not to also do so in other cases. Shortly after the act was passed, the overseers of the poorhouse in Philadelphia began binding out children of black paupers up to age 28....

Name a southern state that was in the process of abolishing slavery even on NJ's terms.


While there was limited abolitionist support in the South, I am not aware of any state government actions along those lines in states that formed the Confederacy.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
No, you've made mine.  Two of the bloodiest wars in this nation's history were fought - and won -against leaders who based their regimes around racial superiority over others.  Y'all's hero, Robert E. Lee, believed if slavery was supposed to end, god would make it so.  Consider the defeat of his army and destruction of the confederacy that wrath and fulfillment of will.

YOU sir are woefully ignorant on this subject!

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:

Quote
I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war. There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

Note the date of the letter!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

@Cripplecreek

Agree on all points.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:13:40 PM
Let's not re-fight the Civil War on this thread..if you want to do that start a new thread in the History Cat.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 12:14:16 PM
There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

Bears repeating!  So I did!   
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:15:39 PM
Let's not re-fight the Civil War on this thread..if you want to do that start a new thread in the History Cat.


Thank You!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 12:17:33 PM
Or we could look back at the Trump campaign and see the slurs against HRC......dollar bills floating around a jewish star that DT insisted was only a sheriff's badge.  The references to Goldman Sachs (oh the irony), and Trump's insistence that he didn't know anything about David Duke.   I am sure there were other subtle and not so subtle anti semitic inferences.
We can pretend there is no danger in Unite the Right and other alt-right actions........but we do so at our own peril.   Unless there are those who are unfazed by the coming plight of the Jewish people.
JMHO

Let's not forget the active robocalls made for his campaign by white supremacists... and whose contents were blatantly keeping in the that tradition.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 12:19:49 PM
Let's not forget the active robocalls made for his campaign by white supremacists... and whose contents were blatantly keeping in the that tradition.

Let's do forget it. Your point of view in calling Irish Catholics like Pat Buchanan whom have no ties to the Democratic Party who has real baggage in Jim Crow and the Klan,  is ornery as well.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 12:20:03 PM
@EC

If there is ONE "universal truth" that applies to all people and all nations everywhere it is that people who seek power over others are people who love having power over others. They might claim,and even believe themselves that they want to lead because they want to make things better for everyone,but that is only a small part of the bigger truth,which is they seek power so they can exercise power.

Up until recent decades,America was pretty unique in that we had the ability and the will to limit those who sought power and abused it. Those days are over. The REAL power in America today lies in the hands of the media and the mobs they agitate. Elected leaders are mere figureheads.

To put it in plainer language,we are now ruled by Mob Rule,and the people who own and control the media own and control the mobs.

Proof of that is even Trump is afraid to mention black or leftist violence by name,and the media is howling after him like a wolf pack that smells blood,trying to get him to name the "other hate groups whose violence he mentioned".

It is now no longer acceptable to criticize or demonize anyone but conservatives,and as much as white conservatives are abused,non-white conservatives almost need to be put into the political equivalent of witness protection programs to protect them from physical attack by the "peace-loving left".

IF/WHEN the revolution finally happens,the very first people that need to tracked down and hanged where found are the members of the media. The ONLY difference between them and the Nazi Propaganda Ministry of the Nazi's is the Nazi's loved snappy uniforms and had an official public leader that made public appearances and gave speeches. We have Soros and a few others,and they hide in the shadows and send others out to do their dirty work for them and to take all the risks.

Does anyone know what is said about 'the media'?

And notice the injection of Soros as another tie in to help get the meme across.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 12:20:08 PM
'How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.'

How does this in any way contradict my paraphrasing?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: endicom on August 14, 2017, 12:20:40 PM
@mystery-ak may as well start a religion forum so that TBR can be all that FR used to be.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 12:21:32 PM
@Weird Tolkienish Figure

No,they're not. They don't even claim to be conservatives. The ones cheering are proud to announce they are Nazi's or some other form of cretin.

It is the MEDIA that calls them conservatives,and unfortunately,we have no one with balls in public office because if we did,they would stand up on their hind legs and call them on it.


No, they claim the conservative mantle and the press runs with it.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 12:24:15 PM
'How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence.'

How does this in any way contradict my paraphrasing?

Your out of context paraphrase attempted to portray General Lee's position as something it patently was not!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 12:27:09 PM
Interesting example.  When you're married and things go badly, one partner just can't say 'OK, we're divorced' and walk away without consequence.  Especially if it's contested by the other.
Partners go to court. Nations go to war. i.e. 1776.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:28:03 PM
Trump to make a statement shortly
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:28:42 PM
Trump to make a statement shortly

The media already has their criticism of his statement ready to go.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 12:28:56 PM
I'm not refighting either, but all one needs to do is look at the ordinances of secession of every Confederate state to confirm your point. Almost all listed slavery or equal rights of blacks as their 1st or 2nd reason. Unless one wants to say they were all lying, that's what the Confederate states said themselves, anything else is revisionism.  A few states didn't list any reasons at all in the ordinances but simply said they seceded but the reasons can be found in their legislative sessions debating the issue. Of these, only one, Missouri, listed something else, specifically Federal Soldiers occupying their capitol.

(click on each one to read the full ordinance, only the preamble is shown on the landing page- [url]http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp[/url] )

A few pull quotes (most go into a lot more detail over it too):

South Carolina:
Mississippi:
Georgia:
Texas:


@AbaraXas

Thank you for posting that.

That makes it about as clear as it's going to get, I think.  Why pretend otherwise?  Is it that we want to believe we were right?

The thing is, the desire to protect and perpetuate slavery wasn't right, and it was doomed to defeat one way or another.

Now let me go get a Diet Mt. Dew and settle down for the accusations of self-hating White, BLM lover, Southern traitor, etc.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 12:30:02 PM
(http://images.zap2it.com/assets/p183949_n1275_cc_v4_aa/all-in-the-family.jpg)

It's a joke to go after anyone as a bigot; how many of us have done anything that could be called racist or bigotted?  Good for anyone that can claim they are not.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: skeeter on August 14, 2017, 12:30:36 PM
Trump to make a statement shortly

I hope he spells out each and every hate group - ALL of them. Thats the discussion America needs to have.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: GourmetDan on August 14, 2017, 12:30:50 PM
A classic case of "Let's you and him fight."

Unfortunate that so few recognize what is really happening and look behind the curtain...
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:31:44 PM
Trump to make a statement shortly

Thanks for the heads-up. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 12:32:27 PM
@AbaraXas

Thank you for posting that.

That makes it about as clear as it's going to get, I think.  Why pretend otherwise?  Is it that we want to believe we were right?

The thing is, the desire to protect and perpetuate slavery wasn't right, and it was doomed to defeat one way or another.

Now let me go get a Diet Mt. Dew and settle down for the accusations of self-hating White, BLM lover, Southern traitor, etc.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the word or phrase in the U.S. Constitution which would prevent a state from seceeding even today. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:34:14 PM
I hope he spells out each and every hate group - ALL of them. Thats the discussion America needs to have.

He is supposed to but they will all claim it's too little too late.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:35:17 PM
I hope he spells out each and every hate group - ALL of them. Thats the discussion America needs to have.

Agree @skeeter
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:35:26 PM
Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:36:31 PM
He is supposed to but they will all claim it's too little too late.

We  can count on this ... but I wonder if anyone will ask what it's too late for??
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 12:39:17 PM
Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?

Depends  on who you ask. Actual Conservatives will tell you they are fascists and people with white supremacy tendencies. The left will tell you it's anyone who does not hold to their views.   Personally, I never understood how Nazis got associated with the right, since they were national socialists and socialism is not a right wing idea.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
Okay POTUS just named them....
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 12:42:46 PM
Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?


Here is the Breitbart/Milo supportive view- http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/

Here is the traditional conservative view from The Weekly Standard- http://www.weeklystandard.com/what-exactly-is-the-alternative-right/article/2000310

Here is more of the modern 'tea party' type view of it from Ben Shapiro- http://www.dailywire.com/news/8638/what-alt-right-ben-shapiro

Here is the Libertarian view- https://fee.org/articles/five-differences-between-the-alt-right-and-libertarians/

I left out the liberal view, that's obvious. The only one that sees them in a favorable light is the Breitbart/Milo view.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 12:43:32 PM
Okay POTUS just named them....

Good, maybe he'll take this opportunity to step up, change course, and become an adult. No more sitting on the sidelines playing internet popularity games.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:44:00 PM
Depends  on who you ask. Actual Conservatives will tell you they are fascists and people with white supremacy tendencies. The left will tell you it's anyone who does not hold to their views.   Personally, I never understood how Nazis got associated with the right, since they were national socialists and socialism is not a right wing idea.

To the left, Nazism is all about language, borders and culture.  Anyone who stands up for these things is therefore labelled a "Nazis".   So anyone who thinks we need to better control immigration, is a "Nazi".  Anyone who believes we should preserve our culture, is a "Nazi."
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:44:28 PM
Excellent statement by POTUS but I thought the first one was too!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:44:34 PM
Okay POTUS just named them....

They'll never be happy.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:44:46 PM
Okay POTUS just named them....

It won't be enough. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: GourmetDan on August 14, 2017, 12:45:24 PM
Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?


The guys on the left are alt-right... the guy on the right is a normal, decent human being...


(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s658/GourmetDan/literal-1024x515_zpsdvtuohya.jpg)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:45:48 PM
Excellent statement by POTUS but I thought the first one was too!

I agree @mystery-ak
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:46:20 PM
It won't be enough.

It never is.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: jpsb on August 14, 2017, 12:47:18 PM
Can someone explain to me who the alt-right is...are the Nazis and White Supremacist part of them?

Nazis and White Supremacist is my understanding, back in the day we called them skin heads. But these days lots of guys shave their head for some strange reason.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on August 14, 2017, 12:49:48 PM
It never is.

I hope after his presser later today, this is the last the President says about this.  "I cannot speak about an ongoing investigation" should be the standard answer from this point on.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 12:52:02 PM
Trump and Bannon are strong supporters of anything advantageous to themselves. Both men seem to love surrounding themselves with alt right antisemites.

From what I'm seeing it looks like most "conservatives" are sympathizers.
Well, that's the optic the Left has been pushing from at least the days of GHWB, so small wonder. The SPLC and others have been painting any two gun owning Caucasian Christians (AKA "Bitter Clingers") who meet for coffee as a Vast Right Winged Conspiracy, and the images they rarely fail to invoke are those of skinheads, the Klan, and the like.

In this case, (Charlottesville) the one group had a permit to do their little gathering in the park. Another group invaded the space, pushed those people out of the place they had a permit to have their shindig, and continued to attack the group, claiming "Free Speech".

If we change it to the Ladies' Garden Club being attacked by the Coalition to Preserve Noxious Weeds, could you see the wrong?

Regardless of who the groups were, one had the right and the permits required to hold their gathering. They had not only invoked their right to peaceably assemble but had jumped through the local hoops to obtain the permit to do so. They were attacked and driven from that permitted location by another group who was there for the express purpose of suppressing that right, in violation of the permit rules imposed on the first group. That the group who did the attacking were violent in their suppression of the other group's rights makes this all the more onerous.

One group, regardless of who they are was in the right, the other group was in the wrong.
As for the car driver running people down, that was wrong, no matter who he associated himself with, and that unnecessary level of violence is unacceptable.  Unfortunately, that is the optic of violence which will dominate the discussion of the day's events, not the violence by Antifa and BLM and the like, which makes me question the background of the driver. Some things are just a little too convenient for all the wrong people.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 12:53:31 PM
Well, that's the optic the Left has been pushing from at least the days of GHWB, so small wonder

When they were running against Obama, they even called McCain and Romney "Nazis."    If you have an "R" next to your name, you're a Nazi no matter what to them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 12:53:48 PM
Quote
Ana Navarro‏Verified account @ananavarro 4m4 minutes ago

If Trump had given speech like this on Saturday, we'd have commended him. On Monday, it does nothing for me. Zero. I suspect, I'm not alone.


Quote
The Briefing Room‏ @Briefing__Room 52s52 seconds ago

The Briefing Room Retweeted Ana Navarro

I doubt it...no matter what he says and when he says it is never enough!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 12:53:49 PM
Excellent statement by POTUS but I thought the first one was too!

It was fine and he was correct to say 'all sides' in the first statement.  The original group with the permit just wanted to protest the statue removal and assault on heritage. Does anyone really believe there would've been trouble without the left-wing element present with their bats, clubs, and urine bottles? Of course not.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: aligncare on August 14, 2017, 01:00:30 PM
Nazis and White Supremacist is my understanding, back in the day we called them skin heads. But these days lots of guys shave their head for some strange reason.

I posted this on another thread. History of the term alt right:


I wonder if anyone ever stopped to consider that the term alt right wasn't in use anywhere in the media in 2015 and early 2016? And that originally, alternative right was a term used by Steve Bannon to describe a new breed of young republican as apposed to the old guard.

It had nothing to do with race until the left appropriated it to mean anything from racist to anti Semitic, nationalist, white supremacist etc.

And republicans just meekly accept the theft of language to be used by the left as a political bludgeon. Welcome to PC hell, folks.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 01:03:18 PM
 According to Charles Gasparino, a source tells him Bannon is a goner. Steve Deace retweeted the quote.

I've wondered if Bannon was counseling Trump on this, and other staffers convinced him Bannon was wrong---and that he should make a new statement.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 01:06:27 PM
Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.
Wars are fought for economic reasons. That there is nothing in the USC about seceding reserves the right.

Amendment 10:
Quote
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 01:07:14 PM
I posted this on another thread. History of the term alt right:


I wonder if anyone ever stopped to consider that the term alt right wasn't in use anywhere in the media in 2015 and early 2016? And that originally, alternative right was a term used by Steve Bannon to describe a new breed of young republican as apposed to the old guard.

It had nothing to do with race until the left appropriated it to mean anything from racist to anti Semitic, nationalist, white supremacist etc.

And republicans just meekly accept the theft of language to be used by the left as a political bludgeon. Welcome to PC hell, folks.


Incorrect on all counts. An archive news article search shows it going back even further.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alt-right&safe=off&biw=1920&bih=940&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2014%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2015&tbm=nws

At that, in 2015, Breitbart even compared it to Satanism. This was after Bannon had taken editorial control over Breitbart. So before it was advantageous to use them, his publication was calling it satanic.

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/10/31/when-satanism-met-the-internet/

Quote
A rational Satanist does not apologize for that fact of the world, but rather embraces it. In this regard, Satanism has a lot in common with the modern “alt-right” movement on the internet......

.....In the social media sphere, the emerging “alternative right” or alt-right movement openly embraces the same type of evolutionary philosophy that LaVey borrowed from Ragnar Redbeard. “As a society, we have been searching in vain for about two centuries for evidence that all people are equal and have found none whatsoever,” one alt-right website says. “The alt-right is the right wing stripped of any superstitious belief in human equality.”......

So, if you consider yourself part of the alt-right, and are also an atheist who enjoys a little sexual deviancy now and again, you may already be a Satanist.....
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EasyAce on August 14, 2017, 01:07:51 PM
It was fine and he was correct to say 'all sides' in the first statement. 
The first statement was an infield hit. Today he hit one over the center field fence.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 01:08:34 PM
The first statement was an infield hit. Today he hit one over the left field fence.

The media will just say, "A day late and a dollar short."
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Restored on August 14, 2017, 01:09:14 PM
I don't allow white people to lecture me on racism. I've been wanting to strangle Facebook to the floor all day.

You are not noble if you condemn racism. No one openly supports it, not even the racists. Why bring it up?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 01:10:26 PM
It gets lost in the story because of what happened and who did it, but Antifa is the real problem. They never have rallies or demonstrations to bring attention to an issue. Their sole purpose is to disrupt, provoke, and incite at events.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 14, 2017, 01:10:30 PM
According to Charles Gasparino, a source tells him Bannon is a goner. Steve Deace retweeted the quote.

I've wondered if Bannon was counseling Trump on this, and other staffers convinced him Bannon was wrong---and that he should make a new statement.


If true, look for Breitbart to go after Trump.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 01:12:54 PM
The first statement was an infield hit. Today he hit one over the center field fence.

Honestly, my only problem with the first statement was the departure into employment numbers. I found that irrelevant, distracting, and tone deaf to the situation.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 01:14:36 PM
Wars are fought for economic reasons. That there is nothing in the USC about seceding reserves the right.

Amendment 10:

 :shrug:

Tell it to people in the 1860's. They fought a war over it. The South lost.

Try it again and the same thing will happen.  :seeya:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 01:15:57 PM

If true, look for Breitbart to go after Trump.

Yep.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 01:17:18 PM
Incorrect on all counts. An archive news article search shows it going back even further.
[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=alt-right&safe=off&biw=1920&bih=940&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2014%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2015&tbm=nws[/url]

At that, in 2015, Breitbart even compared it to Satanism. This was after Bannon had taken editorial control over Breitbart. So before it was advantageous to use them, his publication was calling it satanic.

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2015/10/31/when-satanism-met-the-internet/[/url]


To me, the term is so diluted, it's pretty meaningless. I do see Aligncare's point. .

Per Front Page Mag:
Quote
Some Observations From the Man Who Created Alt-Right
An intellectual movement that Democrats want to use to smear Breitbart and Trump.
August 30, 2016
Paul Gottfried
132
AddThis Sharing Buttons
Share to Facebook337Share to TwitterShare to More219Share to Print

Editor’s note: Frontpage’s recent article by Matthew Vadum, The Alt-Right is Coming! Hillary Shrieks, exposed the dishonest nature of Hillary’s and the Left’s slanderous attacks on Trump, Breitbart and the “Alt-Right,” revealing that the situation is far more complicated than their smear campaign would suggest. For instance, Clinton and leftists blame individuals such Richard Spencer for the Alt-Right, but it was Dr. Paul Gottfried, Professor Emeritus of Humanities at Elizabethtown College, who actually invented the term for the movement. Below we are publishing Gottfried’s account of the narrative to help clarify matters for our readers.

Last week I was reminded by a call from Associated Press that I had invented the term “Alternative Right.” When I asked about how I had accomplished that, the woman on the other end of the phone referred to a speech I had given in November 2008 in which I urged the creation of an “Alternative Right.” The same ...  More: [url]http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263988/some-observations-man-who-created-alt-right-paul-gottfried[/url]


Yet, almost nowhere are folks going to say Gottfried should get the credit for the term.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 01:19:52 PM
It gets lost in the story because of what happened and who did it, but Antifa is the real problem. They never have rallies or demonstrations to bring attention to an issue. Their sole purpose is to disrupt, provoke, and incite at events.

The vast majority of the sheeple don't even know that Antifas even exist.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Applewood on August 14, 2017, 01:20:24 PM
I posted this on another thread. History of the term alt right:


I wonder if anyone ever stopped to consider that the term alt right wasn't in use anywhere in the media in 2015 and early 2016? And that originally, alternative right was a term used by Steve Bannon to describe a new breed of young republican as apposed to the old guard.

It had nothing to do with race until the left appropriated it to mean anything from racist to anti Semitic, nationalist, white supremacist etc.


And republicans just meekly accept the theft of language to be used by the left as a political bludgeon. Welcome to PC hell, folks.

If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats.  The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan.  So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 01:25:16 PM
If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats.  The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan.  So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.

And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

At that, it almost seems the death of Buckley was a symbolic point that saw a major shift in the Republican party and those speaking for us. Kind of like it seemed the Clinton Impeachment changed how Democrats acted.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 01:31:54 PM
I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.

It's also when the Democratic Party went way to the Left.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 01:32:09 PM
I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129

Quote
National Review’s opposition to federal civil rights legislation put it at odds not only with self-proclaimed “modern Republicans” such as Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon. (In 1957, years before he adopted the southern strategy, Nixon was one of the highest-profile defenders of civil rights in the Republican Party). But it also put him at odds with conservative Republicans, whom the magazine supported editorially, such as Senate Minority Leader William Knowland, the 1957 Civil Rights bill’s primary sponsor.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 01:34:17 PM
I can remember when "open borders" was just the default conservative position.

I also remember when free trade was a conservative position as well.

Then they let the rubes in.

Then we saw the consequences of those positions.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 01:42:49 PM
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.
States could choose to become part of the Confederacy or not. No one put a gun to their heads.

At its core, forced manumission was an economic sanction. The Northerners who ran the shipping companies which imported the slaves had made their money already. Nothing like selling a product and passing a law against it.
Even worse was the idea of literally dumping a huge population of people who had no education on a region, but some interests have been exploiting that group ever since.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: kevindavis on August 14, 2017, 01:46:36 PM
And Buckley in the 60s successfully purged the KKK/Neo-Confederate/WN types from the Republican party.

I do find the timing interesting, if not simply coincidence, that when Buckley died in 2008 we started seeing the resurgence of some of these types of groups latching on to the right, and as one pointed out upthread, the root of 'alt-right' can be traced to 2008.

At that, it almost seems the death of Buckley was a symbolic point that saw a major shift in the Republican party and those speaking for us. Kind of like it seemed the Clinton Impeachment changed how Democrats acted.


I think it was after the 04 elections when the root of 'alt-right' started to latch on. Remember the Minutemen Group?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 01:46:37 PM
I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

[url]http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129[/url]


I don't know about the 'southern strategy' for Nixon.  Wallace won 5 states in 1968.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 02:10:54 PM
If I remember my history correctly (probably not), the KKK was once comprised of Democrats. 
Of course it was. After the War, the only Republicans down South were invaders. That old Klan was the shadow government which ran what the Yankees, Carpetbaggers, and Scalywags did not.
Quote
The Democrats managed to distance themselves from the present day Klan. 
As has been pointed out, the Klan just after the War was a vigilante group, but not so much a 'hate' group. That part starts in the 1900s. Similarly, the Democrat Party changed to a largely Marxist organization in the 1960s with the advent of The New Left (if the 1930s didn't foreshadow that).
Quote
So now it seems the Klan and others like them are trying to rebrand as Republicans and/or conservatives.
They aren't Marxists, and in the world of media driven false dichotomies, that leaves the GOP. The media have been calling Republicans Nazis (recall "BushHitler" memes?), perhaps because the 'Nazis' are an enemy the Marxists can understand.
Quote
  That must be the story perpetrated by lefty media such as MSNBC because I have liberal friends who are fans of MSNBC and others like them and they keep telling me that these Klan/neo-Nazi/white supremacist groups are conservative or Republican.
  The media have been trying (along with groups like the SPLC) to lump everyone from the Young Republicans to the NRA to Right to Life folks and Stormfront all together in a tidy little package to hate for a very long time. It was Federal 'investigation' that led to the Ruby Ridge incident when Randy Weaver would not act as an informant on his separatist neighbors (GHWB), despite entrapment over gun charges being used as leverage by the Feds. The whole incident on the ridge was over charges of "Failure to appear" on a warrant where the date had been moved up and Weaver was notified of a different date. 
The attempt to conflate people who love Jesus (and even Jews) who own firearms, revere the Constitution, believe in the Rule of Law, and the Bill of Rights with the KKK and NeoNazis has been going on a long time, but so has the media foisted ignorance of the groups involved, smeared with disinformation campaigns by the media to remove the very great distinctions.
Quote
  It's exhausting to try to explain to my loved ones that they are being fed a line of BS by dishonest lefty media.  These hateful people do not represent me anymore than BLM represents every black person.
Point out to your relatives the spectrum on the Left from the Communists to Antifa to BLM to PETA and the Sierra Club (I know, it's hard to find a Leftist group who aren't Communists at their core) and ask them if they think everyone over there shares anything but a disdain for the Constitution and the Rule of Law.  The media present two dimensional false dichotomies for a reason. People are more complicated than that.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 02:11:13 PM

If true, look for Breitbart to go after Trump.

@kevindavis

I think they will, too.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 02:13:43 PM
@kevindavis

I think they will, too.


FR already is.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3577045/posts

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: EasyAce on August 14, 2017, 02:17:41 PM
I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

[url]http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129[/url]


From the very article from which you quoted:

Quote
As he contemplated the merits of the franchise and to whom to extend it, Buckley had restated views he
had advanced while a student at Millbrook, his preparatory school. In a term paper he had written for his
headmaster, Buckley maintained that uneducated voters might be manipulated by demagogues into surrendering
some of their freedom in exchange for benefits raised through taxation of the citizenry. In staking out this position,
Buckley was taking his place in a long line of conservative theorists beginning as far back as Aristotle, who saw
in such democratic practices the roots of tyranny.

It was these intellectual currents that turned Buckley away from the Southern politicians of the time—and toward
his reversal on civil rights.

At this time, a political transformation was taking place in the South, as the “old Bourbons,” with which he and his
southern-rooted family identified, were being displaced in governors’ and congressional offices by a “new breed”
of politicians that Buckley termed “welfare populists.” Whereas the Bourbons shunned harsher racial rhetoric and
sought to break up the Ku Klux Klan, their successors practiced a more guttural and violent form of politics,
especially crafted to crush, by whatever means, the aspirations of African-Americans in the region.

The Buckleys had ample experience with such politicians before and had come to treat them with contempt. Buckley’s
uncle vividly recalled Buckley’s grandfather, John Buckley, the sheriff of Duval County, Texas, going into tirades
against the “white trash of the town.” The uncle held them directly responsible for the voter fraud and intimidation
of Mexican-Americans that resulted in the sheriff’s defeat at the polls.

By 1963, Buckley was voicing outrage at Southern populists like Alabama Governor George C. Wallace on two
grounds: their agitation for greater federal intervention in the economy (a no-no among movement conservatives)
and their refusal to extend the benefits of such largesse to African-Americans. It may have been his disdain for
these kind of ideologically impure politicians that hastened Buckley’s eventual 180 on federal intervention. Looking
back on the period in 2004, Buckley told Time magazine, “I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim
Crow. I was wrong. Federal intervention was necessary.”

Buckley’s religious concerns rose up to meet his political ones. Privately, he was beginning to harbor doubts about
legal segregation, a practice he had accepted without question his entire life. Early in 1963, he wrote his mother,
the most religious person he knew, inquiring how she could “reconcile Christian fraternity” with “the separation of
the races.” Aloise Buckley responded that she had gone to church and prayed for humility and wisdom from the
Holy Spirit and that she would answer his question as the inspiration came to her.

That May, racial tensions mounted in Birmingham, Alabama, when Commission of Public Safety Bull Connor ordered
hoses, nightsticks and dogs turned on young demonstrators. During these months, Buckley remained on an intellectual
and emotional seesaw that still tilted southward. He wrote that the police had no alternative but to impose order
and that the South could do without “massive infusions of northern moralism.” Yet he juxtaposed these statements
with calls on Southerners to respect the right of people to demonstrate, lest they ease over into the “hands of the
federal government … a greater and greater role in the revolution of Southern affairs.”


The Inside Story of William F. Buckley, Jr.'s Crusade Against the John Birch Society (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448774/william-f-buckley-john-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch)
Anatomy of a Takedown: William F. Buckley, Jr. vs. George Wallace (http://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2017/03/06/resisting-trump-the-william-f-buckley-jr-way-rich-barlow)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 02:18:56 PM
:shrug:

Tell it to people in the 1860's. They fought a war over it. The South lost.

Try it again and the same thing will happen.  :seeya:
You are being disingenuous. You think that slavery wasn't an economic issue?

Not only did slaves represent a huge investment, but they made both cotton and tobacco agriculture work.

Those were the big cash crops that drove the Southern economy, and were ready export crops. In other words, not only the economy of the South, but a great deal of the export economy depended on those hands picking cotton or stripping tobacco.
That economy was great enough the North threatened it, then seized it by force of arms when it threatened to go away.

Otherwise, the Yankees had a slave-free country just by letting go. 

Tell farmers today you are going to take away their tractors and see if they won't shoot your ass to keep them.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: CatherineofAragon on August 14, 2017, 02:23:28 PM
FR already is.

[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3577045/posts[/url]


@AbaraXas

Wow.  One of them pointed out his new tag line condemning 5 Democratic presidents----Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump.

I doubt JimRob will zot anyone.  He likely realizes now that he has to hang onto every donor he has.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 02:28:05 PM
Tell farmers today you are going to take away their tractors and see if they won't shoot your ass to keep them.

 :huh?:

Who wants to take away farmer's tractors? I wouldn't support that in any circumstance.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 02:33:18 PM
FR already is.

[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3577045/posts[/url]


I see the 'it was a setup by Soros' crowd is present there.   For a group of people that decry victimhood so much, they sure spend a lot of time blaming that old man for their woes.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: AbaraXas on August 14, 2017, 02:43:49 PM
I see the 'it was a setup by Soros' crowd is present there.   For a group of people that decry victimhood so much, they sure spend a lot of time blaming that old man for their woes.

It is hilarious how the completely try to deny that there could be anyone negative on the side they like (and if they are it was an 'obvious plant'), yet there are other posts from FReepers who said they attended.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 02:46:19 PM
Quote
VA Police Spokesperson Echoes Trump's Statement: Yes, There Was Violence on 'All Sides'

...

Someone who wasn't condemned for making a similar statement was Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller, who echoed Trump's comments, blaming the violence on “all sides”:

    “We were hoping that it would not elevate to this level of the violence that we witnessed amongst the participants in the crowds, on all sides. They were throwing bottles, they were throwing soda cans with cement in them. [...]”

Geller also said participants “were launching chemicals into the crowd,” although she didn't place the blame on either side.

[url]http://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017/08/946717-va-police-spokesperson-echoes-trumps-statement-yes-violence-sides/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social[/url]
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 02:49:04 PM
From the very article from which you quoted:

The Inside Story of William F. Buckley, Jr.'s Crusade Against the John Birch Society ([url]http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448774/william-f-buckley-john-birch-society-history-conflict-robert-welch[/url])
Anatomy of a Takedown: William F. Buckley, Jr. vs. George Wallace ([url]http://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2017/03/06/resisting-trump-the-william-f-buckley-jr-way-rich-barlow[/url])

John Birch society isn't the Ku Klux Klan, they are not near that.

William Buckley is not the final word on whom are racists and are not. Nevermind, that Buckley actually was for segregation at one point.

I only see that JBS article as being about the kooky views the JBS had, as in communism.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
:huh?:

Who wants to take away farmer's tractors? I wouldn't support that in any circumstance.
The slaves were the harvesting implements of their day. They were the 'tractors' of that time period, along with draft animals, and as essential to the 1850s cotton and tobacco farming export economy as tractors are today.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 02:55:31 PM
Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.
Yes there is.  It is the tenth Amendment.  Read it at your leisure.

Fighting one war and losing does not end things.  Otherwise Europe would still be Roman.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Cyber Liberty on August 14, 2017, 02:56:52 PM
The slaves were the harvesting implements of their day. They were the 'tractors' of that time period, along with draft animals, and as essential to the 1850s cotton and tobacco farming export economy as tractors are today.

We need to make it a Social Justice issue!

Tractors of the World, UNITE!  Power to the tractors!!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on August 14, 2017, 02:58:23 PM
Yes there is.  It is the tenth Amendment.  Read it at your leisure.

In your opinion. The USSC does not agree with you.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 03:00:07 PM
We have a history area here and we've already been told about it once.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 03:00:36 PM
I want to read what Buckley did; respectfully, I'm not just going to take at face value all that is said in this forum.

[url]http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/13/william-f-buckley-civil-rights-215129[/url]
The so-called "southern strategy" is balderdash.  The truth was the south had been gradually turning Republican for decades before Nixon's '72 campaign.  In the meanwhile, the Dems had been turning left with FDR's admin being the impetus.
The "deep South" states still remained in Dem hands  for a decade after Nixon left the office.  The outer, more civil-rights positive outer southern states had been voting for Republicans long before the Deep South states did.
Nixon just appealed to patriotism and painting the '72 Dems as having lurched off the left side of the political spectrum. Which they had.
Liberal Dems just couldn't stand the fact that their party had made a severe left turn and tried to blame racist Republicans for votes they were destined to lose because of their radical left stances.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 03:02:19 PM
“We were hoping that it would not elevate to this level of the violence that we witnessed amongst the participants in the crowds, on all sides. They were throwing bottles, they were throwing soda cans with cement in them. [...]”

Geller also said participants “were launching chemicals into the crowd,” although she didn't place the blame on either side.

Well the citizens of Charlottesville and the Commonwealth were hoping everyone in the state would obey the law, but they paid taxes to hire a police force just in case.  This was something easily preventable had they bothered to do an ounce of research on the opposing groups.  Similar elements were at Seattle protests over the weekend.  Their riot control police kept a strong presence between the two and there haven't been serious incidents.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 14, 2017, 03:03:46 PM
  Otherwise Europe would still be Roman.

Long live the Toga! 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: dfwgator on August 14, 2017, 03:08:40 PM
Long live the Toga!

(https://media.giphy.com/media/sOKKFW5ArfIys/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 03:10:33 PM
I like to say, "Oh, the CW was about states' rights? States' rights to do what?" Of course, we all know the answer was the right to deprive human beings of their rights.
A goofy post.

I hope your realize that is exactly what liberals and Democrats do, don't you?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 03:11:26 PM
Long live the Toga!


Also, it would be awesome to get the evening news from this guy in Gladiator.....

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2130/1655405063_c669e84a38.jpg?v=0)

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 03:13:01 PM
Where? NY? No, Ohio? No. Nice try.  A few border states? Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, not really yankee states.

([url]http://faculty.unlv.edu/pwerth/Free-slave-states.jpg[/url])

 :thud:

Some of these states outlawed slavery long before the Civil War because they were aware of problems like slave rebellions and so on.

 *****rollingeyes*****
1860? The Revolution began in 1776.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 03:14:03 PM
I don't know about the 'southern strategy' for Nixon.  Wallace won 5 states in 1968.
The "southern strategy" was a lie foisted on the nation by liberals who couldn't stand the fact they were destined to lose conservative southern whites who were naturally turned off by radical leftism....which the Dem party was turning into.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Wingnut on August 14, 2017, 03:14:06 PM
Also, it would be awesome to get the evening news from this guy in Gladiator.....

([url]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2130/1655405063_c669e84a38.jpg?v=0[/url])


Oy!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__m-dZEqmGUM/TRSToTU4YxI/AAAAAAAAAbI/VhRsFTnJOWk/s1600/jesus-christ-superstar.jpg.bmp)
Oh and the Roman Bath houses!   Just to die for!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 03:14:41 PM
I like to say, "Oh, the CW was about states' rights? States' rights to do what?" Of course, we all know the answer was the right to deprive human beings of their rights.

Agreed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 03:14:41 PM
We need to make it a Social Justice issue!

Tractors of the World, UNITE!  Power to the tractors!!
TLM, baby! John Deeres matter!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 03:18:00 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me the word or phrase in the U.S. Constitution which would prevent a state from seceeding even today.
It cannot be done.

Those who wish to subjugate the sovereign states fall back on the mantra "there was a war fought about it and it was decided", not knowing they are idiots for proposing that a 'war to end all wars' was said about WWI, yet we still had WWII, and will have more and more and more wars.

WARS DO NOT END ANYTHING, they just settled a certain outcome at the time.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 03:19:53 PM
The "southern strategy" was a lie foisted on the nation by liberals who couldn't stand the fact they were destined to lose conservative southern whites who were naturally turned off by radical leftism....which the Dem party was turning into.

BINGO!!!  888high58888
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 03:23:04 PM
John Birch society isn't the Ku Klux Klan, they are not near that.

William Buckley is not the final word on whom are racists and are not. Nevermind, that Buckley actually was for segregation at one point.

I only see that JBS article as being about the kooky views the JBS had, as in communism.
"John Birch society isn't the Ku Klux Klan, they are not near that."

I used to know a guy at a place I worked who was so radical, he was kicked out of the JBS. He was a nice guy, but was definitely anti-Semitic and said nice things about Hitler.  I think the JBS was far more concerned about rooting out communists than any other issue. They  didn't want people who championed Nazism.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 03:23:10 PM
It cannot be done.

Those who wish to subjugate the sovereign states fall back on the mantra "there was a war fought about it and it was decided", not knowing they are idiots for proposing that a 'war to end all wars' was said about WWI, yet we still had WWII, and will have more and more and more wars.

WARS DO NOT END ANYTHING, they just settled a certain outcome at the time.

Unfortunately, that particular war managed to alter the fundamental nature of our federal government and opened the door wide for every progressive to come along since.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 03:25:12 PM
Those who wish to subjugate the sovereign states fall back on the mantra "there was a war fought about it and it was decided", not knowing they are idiots for proposing that a 'war to end all wars' was said about WWI, yet we still had WWII, and will have more and more and more wars.

Interesting example, since the losing side of WWI didn't like the outcome, pursued a better one in WWII, and suffered an even more devastating loss.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 03:27:27 PM
The slaves were the harvesting implements of their day. They were the 'tractors' of that time period, along with draft animals, and as essential to the 1850s cotton and tobacco farming export economy as tractors are today.
Maybe if you had said 'horses' and '100 years ago' he might have grasped your meaning.

100 years ago, if you took someone's horse, you were strung up.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 03:28:49 PM
In your opinion. The USSC does not agree with you.
Point out exactly where that is, please.


Oh, and the USSC is not the Constitution.

Do you think it is?
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goatprairie on August 14, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
Yes there is.  It is the tenth Amendment.  Read it at your leisure.

Fighting one war and losing does not end things.  Otherwise Europe would still be Roman.
I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it.
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead. You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.
Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: skeeter on August 14, 2017, 03:30:53 PM
It cannot be done.

Those who wish to subjugate the sovereign states fall back on the mantra "there was a war fought about it and it was decided", not knowing they are idiots for proposing that a 'war to end all wars' was said about WWI, yet we still had WWII, and will have more and more and more wars.

WARS DO NOT END ANYTHING, they just settled a certain outcome at the time.

If you'll allow me to tweak your statement a bit - wars that are not settled JUSTLY end nothing.

You might have your foot on your opponent's neck right now but unless treated justly human beings, being who they naturally are, are less likely to accept their subordinate position for long.

Its also why Alan West's take on this weekend's fiasco is dead nuts on target.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 03:37:16 PM
I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it.
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead. You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.
Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?
As has been pointed out the same logic used to break ties with the English Monarchy applies.
There is nothing in the Constitution which prohibits the secession of a State. There is no statement that the Federal Government has the Right or the Power to coerce a State to remain. Rights and powers not specifically granted the Federal Government nor prohibited to it or the States by the Constitution remain the powers and Rights of the States and the People, respectively. (Amendment 10).
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 03:38:09 PM
I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it.
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead. You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.
Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?

A fact made even more clear by the fact that the Articles of Confederation, which were overthrown and done away with by the rump convention which brought forth the new Constitution,  clearly do say "perpetual  union". The New Constitution, which was duly adopted and is now the supreme law of this land, makes no mention of that at all!
 
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 03:42:36 PM
1860? The Revolution began in 1776.


Yes, and a lot of states got rid of slavery well before 1860, but someone said the Yankees still had slaves, so not true but for some corner of Delaware, whatever the details were.

Also, I have also seen it written per this talk of secession, that the government then, would have had the right to execute all who wished to do it per sedition.

It's in the discussion here: http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/weblogs/jackblog/2015/jun/21/confederates-speak-yes-we-fought-the-civil-war-ove/

Perhaps those defending slavery and a white supremacist society will find that of interest.

States like Missouri sure weren't Union states.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 03:43:44 PM
Let's not re-fight the Civil War on this thread..if you want to do that start a new thread in the History Cat.

History Cat says, "Meow!"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/549668973432668160/iXS-qLKf.jpeg)
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: TomSea on August 14, 2017, 03:44:45 PM
History Cat says, "Meow!"

(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/549668973432668160/iXS-qLKf.jpeg)

 000hehehehe
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 03:46:58 PM
I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it. 
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead. You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.
What a twisted, crazy way to explain this away.

You do realize, don't you, that the absence of something in a legal setting is not an admission of it being there, but an admission of it being NOT being there?
Quote
Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?
I call that a freedom. What do you call it?  Slavery?
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 03:47:23 PM
The guys on the left are alt-right... the guy on the right is a normal, decent human being...


([url]http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s658/GourmetDan/literal-1024x515_zpsdvtuohya.jpg[/url])


A can of hairspray is not a literal flamethrower.

This is a literal flamethrower:

(https://d2p4va2bfxy5el.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/silver-flamethrower-front1.png)
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: EasyAce on August 14, 2017, 03:52:31 PM
History Cat says, "Meow!"

([url]https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/549668973432668160/iXS-qLKf.jpeg[/url])

(http://www.mylespaul.com/media/puddytat.81518/full?d=1492885054)
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Wingnut on August 14, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
A can of hairspray is not a literal flamethrower.

This is a literal flamethrower:






(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/b3DGfHbu6Xk/hqdefault.jpg)



Last weekend at the beach house.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 03:55:38 PM
The "southern strategy" was a lie foisted on the nation by liberals who couldn't stand the fact they were destined to lose conservative southern whites who were naturally turned off by radical leftism....which the Dem party was turning into.

Not according to Nixon's own political advisor.

And the guy who crafted Nixon's 'southern strategy' verifying this is far more validation than anything else.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 14, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
Yes, and a lot of states got rid of slavery well before 1860, but someone said the Yankees still had slaves, so not true but for some corner of Delaware, whatever the details were.

Also, I have also seen it written per this talk of secession, that the government then, would have had the right to execute all who wished to do it per sedition.

It's in the discussion here: [url]http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/weblogs/jackblog/2015/jun/21/confederates-speak-yes-we-fought-the-civil-war-ove/[/url]

Perhaps those defending slavery and a white supremacist society will find that of interest.

States like Missouri sure weren't Union states.
Work your way back to the OP.
There is a reason I mentioned the Revolution, namely that you stated some did not believe the 'all men are created equal' clause of the Declaration of Independence.

While defenders of the Union's invasion, destruction, forcible 'repatriation', and looting of the South point to Slavery as their great moral banner, the bottom line is that the increasingly industrializing economy of the North did not need slaves, except as house servants, and had plenty of Europeans to do the scut work--enough to slight the Irish, who 'need not apply'.
When you have some other group to stuff on the bottom of the socioeconomic totem pole, you can get all high and mighty about not forcing the servitude of those the Northern shipping magnates got filthy rich off of shipping to the South at a profit and without regard for their 'humanity'.

No one here is defending slavery as an institution or a practice.

The war was fought over economics, like all wars are, ultimately. Slavery became a hot issue not out of great moral purity, but because it was no longer a profitable venture in the North and an economic brickbat with which to beat the South, which the North was exploiting like a third world country--enough so that the trade in cotton persisted even during the war. At the time that labor force was essential to the production of Cotton and Tobacco, two major economic products of the South, cotton being a product with export value which ordinarily would have exceeded the price the Northern mills were willing to pay if not for other economic constraints.
Additionally, the South was industrializing on its own, and the war not only destroyed much of that industry, but set it back decades, allowing the South to be further exploited.
But as long as agitprop like the novels Uncle Tom's Cabin and Roots are taught as "History", the view of that era through a modern lens will continue to be grossly distorted. After all, "The victors will be the judges, the vanquished, the accused." applied even then.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
Interesting example, since the losing side of WWI didn't like the outcome, pursued a better one in WWII, and suffered an even more devastating loss.
Yes.  Yes. Yes.

So what is your point anyway?
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 04:20:04 PM
Work your way back to the OP.
There is a reason I mentioned the Revolution, namely that you stated some did not believe the 'all men are created equal' clause of the Declaration of Independence.

While defenders of the Union's invasion, destruction, forcible 'repatriation', and looting of the South point to Slavery as their great moral banner, the bottom line is that the increasingly industrializing economy of the North did not need slaves, except as house servants, and had plenty of Europeans to do the scut work--enough to slight the Irish, who 'need not apply'.
When you have some other group to stuff on the bottom of the socioeconomic totem pole, you can get all high and mighty about not forcing the servitude of those the Northern shipping magnates got filthy rich off of shipping to the South at a profit and without regard for their 'humanity'.

No one here is defending slavery as an institution or a practice.

The war was fought over economics, like all wars are, ultimately. Slavery became a hot issue not out of great moral purity, but because it was no longer a profitable venture in the North and an economic brickbat with which to beat the South, which the North was exploiting like a third world country--enough so that the trade in cotton persisted even during the war. At the time that labor force was essential to the production of Cotton and Tobacco, two major economic products of the South, cotton being a product with export value which ordinarily would have exceeded the price the Northern mills were willing to pay if not for other economic constraints.
Additionally, the South was industrializing on its own, and the war not only destroyed much of that industry, but set it back decades, allowing the South to be further exploited.
But as long as agitprop like the novels Uncle Tom's Cabin and Roots are taught as "History", the view of that era through a modern lens will continue to be grossly distorted. After all, "The victors will be the judges, the vanquished, the accused." applied even then.

 :amen: very well said indeed!   :patriot:
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 04:21:02 PM


 I just showed, in black and white, that the states did not have the right to make this decision.  That negates the "states-rights" argument.  Just no real way around that.
I read your comment and did not see that in it.  How does anything you said negate a "states rights" argument?

Is this what you are referring to?
Quote
I'm going to throw a big old bone in the "refight the War" pot.

The constitution of the confederacy mandated that all confederate states honor the institution of "negro slavery".  Any states accepted into the confederacy after the fact must become slave states.  They did not allow states to choose. 

Remember also, that confederate leaders also had plans to go into Cuba and Latin America in order to expand slavery. 

Hard to argue it as a "states rights" issue.
And do you realize that Cuba was the second to the last country to abolish slavery in this hemisphere?  1886. Brazil followed.
Have to wonder what you mean when you say it was to go to Cuba to expand slavery.


Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: Weird Tolkienish Figure

Do states have a right to secede?

Yes.  (See:  Amendment X)

Apparently not, since a war was fought. Face the facts: there's nothing in the USC about seceding.

The fact that a war was fought takes nothing away from Amendment X.  In fact, it doesn't address it at all.  In other words, you completely ignore the wording of the Constitution itself, referring instead to the brute force aggression of the United States as the arbiter of rights.  Some people would call that 'tyranny'.



Do individuals have a right to secede from towns?

Individuals are not land.  They are not part of towns.

Really? So I can secede my property from my town and declare myself ruler of WeirdTolkienishFiguresville? Not pay any local taxes! Sweet!

Property was not mentioned.  You specifically said 'individuals'.  If you want to now move the goal posts and replace 'individuals' with 'private property' then I would again refer to you state law (which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the question at hand).

And after yet another round, not one person can provide any legal basis whatsoever that prohibits a state from seceding.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 06:30:30 PM
Quote
History is rife with instances that prove what you're saying doesn't matter one whit.  People will turn against family, religion, race in order to immerse themselves in an ideology they believe in.

@txradioguy

So what? That is a VERY wide generality that has NOTHING to do with Trump and his family. It's a lie,you all know it's a lie,but you don't care because you hate Trump.


Quote
Your argument is a straw man.

I hope you were looking in a mirror when you typed that.

Quote
Psst...hey Pete...hate to break it to you...Trump is one of those insiders himself.

Ahhh,but he is not a Republican on Dim insider. If he were,you would love him instead of hate him.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:19:51 PM
@sneakypete, I only have time this morning to make this one comment.  Sorry, but I will be back on this evening.

 I just showed, in black and white, that the states did not have the right to make this decision.   

@Sanguine

Well,I am confident you THINK you did,anyhow.

But you are wrong.
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:22:31 PM
 
Quote
Nobody is impressed with your penchant for ponderous, pretentious, pansophism posting.



@edpc

MY,what BIG words you have,Brer Wolf!

Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Sanguine on August 14, 2017, 07:28:51 PM
@Sanguine

Well,I am confident you THINK you did,anyhow.

But you are wrong.

Now, that's two things we disagree on!   :beer:
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:30:45 PM
@TomSea 

@CatherineofAragon   @TomSea

Quote
You've been corrected on this before, but let's do it one more time.

Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time
.

One yankee slave owner that was forced to give up his slaves AFTER the war ended was none other than General U.S.Grant,the commanding General of the Union Army.


Quote
Many blacks who escaped to the North met with persecution and hatred from "White Supremacist" Northerners.

ONE reason many of the industrialists in the north wanted slavery ended was because the Europeans that came here to work in their factories were starting to get uppity,and demanding higher wages and shorter hours. One reason for the higher wages was because they were tired of having their paychecks docked each week for the company housing they were being forced to live in,and they were tired of being forced to shop in the company stores.

They figured the blacks,who had no idea about the value of money because they had never had any,would be thrilled to work for them long hours for little money.

It has been said,and I see no reason to disbelieve it,that the corruption in the government and the army during the Civil War was enormous. Partly because the thieves in government and the politicians they bribed had never been exposed to a wide open US Treasury like that before. Everything was needed "yesterday",so they were changing 3 or 4 more than normal,and getting paid without question by corrupt government officials.


Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: EasyAce on August 14, 2017, 07:32:09 PM
Nobody is impressed with your penchant for ponderous, pretentious, pansophism posting.
@edpc
Is that another way of calling him a nattering nabob of negativism with a hopeless hysterical hypochondria of history? ;)
Title: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:33:10 PM
There was plenty of resistance to the confederacy in the south as there was resistance to the war in the north. People who want all things to be a nice neat black and white contrast will always be disappointed by reality.

Booker T Washington repeatedly spoke of the vast generosity of former slaveholders and their donations to the Tuskeegee school.

@Cripplecreek 

History has also recorded that former General Nathan Bedford Forrest was very popular with the freed blacks in Tennessee after the war.

For those of you who don't know,he was the guy that started the KKK.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 07:36:12 PM


MY, what BIG words you have ,Brer Wolf!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PIxAC-rd4wA

 :tongue2:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 14, 2017, 07:40:59 PM
"Pockets of slavery existed in the North up until the end of the war, and Yankee slave ships continued to ply their trade during that time."

Quote
Certainly, the border states like Kentucky, Missouri, etc. had slaves, but what non-border union states had slaves? And what northern ships were plying the slave trade many decades after it, slave ships,  had been abolished?
All irrelevant anyway. 
If the north had been hypocrites about slavery, they would not have passed the 13th amendment abolishing slavery.


@goatprairie

Quote
I know that General US Grant owned slaves right up to the day the he was ordered to free them,after the war was over. I suspect he owned them in his home state of Illinois,but can't remember for sure. He may have owned them in DC because that is where his family was during the war.

There were others,too.

Lincoln himself has stated the war had nothing to do with slavery,and if it would keep the union together,he would be content to allow it to remain.

I don't know about you,but *I* think Lincoln was the  ultimate authority on what Lincoln was thinking.

To be fair to everyone because who really knows the motives of any individual of the mid 1800's,there were some people that thought slavery should just be phased out slowly instead of just ended abruptly to allow time for the slaves being held them to be educated about what to expect and how to live as free people in order to keep them from being taken advantage of again once freed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 08:06:01 PM
I've read the tenth amendment a number of times. Strange, I didn't find anything written about the right of states to secede whenever they felt like it.
Don't you think something as momentous as a  state seceding from the union would have something codified in the U.S. constitution allowing it to do so instead.

@goatprairie

You won't find anything about individuals having the right to vote either.  Don't you think something as momentous as an individual having the right to vote would have something codified in the US Constitution?

Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the right to free speech either.  Go figure.  Oh sure, it places a limitation on what the legislature can do.  But it doesn't give you the right to free speech.


You've really got to twist the meaning of the amendment to interpret it as the fed. gov. okaying secession.

Let's take a closer look at that wording, shall we?

Amendment X (https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/tenth_amendment):  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Rights not delegated by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states?  Gee, that would include the right to secede.  And as it specifically says, that right would be "reserved to the states respectively".  No twisting there.  It is exactly what it says.

Just imagine living in a country where at any time some  majority of people in a state could vote for secession. Don't you think that would be kind of a crazy country?

Yet that is exactly what the United States was intended to be.  It is an additional check on the national government that makes it accountable to the States.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 08:09:19 PM
A fact made even more clear by the fact that the Articles of Confederation, which were overthrown and done away with by the rump convention which brought forth the new Constitution,  clearly do say "perpetual  union".

So where is that perpetual union now?  Looks like all 13 states were effectively allowed to opt out of that perpetual union.


The New Constitution, which was duly adopted and is now the supreme law of this land, makes no mention of that at all!

Yep.  They made a point of doing away with all that 'perpetual union' nonsense.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 08:26:56 PM
Not according to Nixon's own political advisor.

And the guy who crafted Nixon's 'southern strategy' verifying this is far more validation than anything else.

Nixon won a grand total of five Southern states in 1968 - less than half.  So much for a Southern Strategy.

Besides, Republicans were the ones who had been championing civil rights for the last three decades.  Why would a bunch of racist Southern Democrats switch parties to vote for the same GOP that got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 09:31:20 PM
I have read a lot of the comments on this thread, and find a woeful amount of intelligent conversation from those who propose the Confederacy was a racist-only group and that there is not rights by the states to uphold their sovereignty.

This aspect perpetuates other threads in which these two topics, slavery and secession are brought up.

It remains a fact that there is nothing but an expressive sentiment about slavery and another one about the freedom of a sovereign state to secede.

Hate to say it to you guys, but slavery is not the issue.  It is about freedom.  A state has, just like any of you, an absolute right to choose who it/he/she wishes to subjugate it/he/she to.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 09:41:28 PM
I have read a lot of the comments on this thread, and find a woeful amount of intelligent conversation from those who propose the Confederacy was a racist-only group and that there is not rights by the states to uphold their sovereignty.

This aspect perpetuates other threads in which these two topics, slavery and secession are brought up.

It remains a fact that there is nothing but an expressive sentiment about slavery and another one about the freedom of a sovereign state to secede.

Hate to say it to you guys, but slavery is not the issue.  It is about freedom.  A state has, just like any of you, an absolute right to choose who it/he/she wishes to subjugate it/he/she to.

What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 09:45:16 PM
What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?

The freedom to govern their own affairs in all the areas they had not specifically ceded to the federal government for starters!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 09:49:51 PM
The freedom to govern their own affairs in all the areas they had not specifically ceded to the federal government for starters!

What areas?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 09:50:52 PM
What areas?

I just told you with great specificity! 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 09:51:17 PM
What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?

It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: HonestJohn on August 14, 2017, 09:53:13 PM
It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.

But you've seen plenty of historical evidence that it is.  1,264,000 pieces of evidence.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 09:54:35 PM
I just told you with great specificity!

Somebody upthread (a few pages ago) posted links to all the seceding states' documents for joining the CSA. They all have one thing in common.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:01:41 PM
What specific freedom did the southern states want that they felt it necessary to secede?
Do you understand what freedom is?

Please let me know what your definition is.

Mine is to be free.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:02:29 PM
Do you understand what freedom is?

Please let me know what your definition it.

Mine is to be free.

I'm sure that what the enslaved people thought as well  :shrug:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:05:42 PM
@Cripplecreek 

History has also recorded that former General Nathan Bedford Forrest was very popular with the freed blacks in Tennessee after the war.

For those of you who don't know,he was the guy that started the KKK.

That general was a real military genius.  I have read up on him and he epitomizes how to win.  It does not surprise me that civilians rallied around him.  He must have been charismatic bigtime.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:06:45 PM
I'm sure that what the enslaved people thought as well  :shrug:
Exactly who do you think enslaved people are?  Give me a good definition.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:08:24 PM
Exactly who do you think enslaved people are?  Give me a good definition.

Are we still talking about the Civil War :shrug:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: catfish1957 on August 14, 2017, 10:10:04 PM
But you've seen plenty of historical evidence that it is.  1,264,000 pieces of evidence.

I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist. 
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:11:50 PM
Are we still talking about the Civil War :shrug:
You chose to say it, so say it, with gusto.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:13:49 PM
You chose to say it, so say it, with gusto.

Say what?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:15:48 PM
Are you intoxicated or illiterate?

You made a statement.  I asked for a definition.

Do you require remedial help?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
Somebody upthread (a few pages ago) posted links to all the seceding states' documents for joining the CSA. They all have one thing in common.

So what!  That doesn't have one damned thing to do with the subject of this conversation!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
It doesn't matter.  That is the equivalent of asking what someone is going to say before allowing them free speech.

States are either prohibited from seceding, or they are not.  And so far, I have not seen one single shred of Constitutional evidence indicating any such prohibition.

I agree that states have the right to secede. My issue isn't about states' right to seced; it's about why these particular states chose that path.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
So what!  That doesn't have one damned thing to do with the subject of this conversation!
I think he left to have another drink.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:17:38 PM
Are you intoxicated or illiterate?

You made a statement.  I asked for a definition.

Do you require remedial help?

Haha! I was about to type the same thing to you but backspaced!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:19:02 PM
I think he left to have another drink.

And don't call me he. You do conservatives a great disservice when you ASSume that shooting is a male only sport.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:23:37 PM
And don't call me he. You do conservatives a great disservice when you ASSume that shooting is a male only sport.
Nothing to refute but to obfuscate with a generic phrase even the Bible uses to describe man.

What else do you have?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 10:23:46 PM
And don't call me he. You do conservatives a great disservice when you ASSume that shooting is a male only sport.

I was gonna tell him but the phone rang!  :whistle:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: mystery-ak on August 14, 2017, 10:25:48 PM
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:26:04 PM
Nothing to refute but to obfuscate with a generic phrase even the Bible uses to describe man.

What else do you have?

Indeed. I read the Declaration in a similar fashion: "all men" literally means all humans, not just those capable of overpowering others.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:27:24 PM
Indeed. I read the Declaration in a similar fashion: "all men" literally means all humans, not just those capable of overpowering others.
so what is the definition? 
Are you intending just to dance around what is the answer to the question?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:28:08 PM
I was gonna tell him but the phone rang!  :whistle:

I hate when that happens, and now I just might have a glass of wine before bed. Hey, I've already been accused of drinking so I may as well fulfill that  :silly: :silly: :silly: Plus, I'm loving Diana: In Her Own Words on NatGeo right now. Not to thread highjack, but Charles is an ass!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:29:47 PM
so what is the definition? 
Are you intending just to dance around what is the answer to the question?

The same as our Founders' including their sentiments about slavery that were struck out of the Declaration's draft.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:30:32 PM
Say what?
Since you appear challenged.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276015.msg1420214.html#msg1420214
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: mountaineer on August 14, 2017, 10:32:03 PM
Geez, give it a rest, Isailed.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:32:20 PM
The same as our Founders' including their sentiments about slavery that were struck out of the Declaration's draft.
Please be specific on what that is.

You mentioned being enslaved.


Does the word 'enslaved' appear in what you are referencing.  If it does, what does it mean?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:35:57 PM
Geez, give it a rest, Isailed.
the guy made a statement about being 'enslaved'.

I want to know what he she thinks that means.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 10:37:06 PM
But you've seen plenty of historical evidence that it is.  1,264,000 pieces of evidence.

Where in the Constitution can this be found?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:37:17 PM
Please be specific on what that is.

You mentioned being enslaved.


Does the word 'enslaved' appear in what you are referencing.  If it does, what does it mean?

If you have no knowledge of the slavery portion of the Declaration's draft and why it was struck from the final doc I suggest you google (generic term, like you prefer) it. Otherwise, I'll not do your homework for you.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:38:23 PM
If you have no knowledge of the slavery portion of the Declaration's draft and why it was struck from the final doc I suggest you google (generic term, like you prefer) it. Otherwise, I'll not do your homework for you.
So you admit you do not know what being 'enslaved'means.

I thought so.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:40:33 PM
So you admit you do not know what being 'enslaved'means.

I thought so.

I'm not even searching for the JLaw, "Yeah, whatever," eye roll gif.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: bigheadfred on August 14, 2017, 10:41:36 PM
So you admit you do not know what being 'enslaved'means.

I thought so.

I know what it means. I am going to bed. I have to get up early to feed the monster.

Good night all.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:43:20 PM
I'm not even searching for the JLaw, "Yeah, whatever," eye roll gif.
then you have absolutely no basis to make the statement that you made in this thread as you cannot back up your definition.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276015.msg1420206.html#msg1420206
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:45:02 PM
I know what it means. I am going to bed. I have to get up early to feed the monster.

Good night all.
:silly:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: bigheadfred on August 14, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
then you have absolutely no basis to make the statement that you made in this thread as you cannot back up your definition.

[url]http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276015.msg1420206.html#msg1420206[/url]


Screw it. I'll be a bit more specific.

I have no redress.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:51:46 PM
then you have absolutely no basis to make the statement that you made in this thread as you cannot back up your definition.

[url]http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,276015.msg1420206.html#msg1420206[/url]


. . . posts the person who has yet to comment on the struck portion of the Declaration. Pouring wine, watching tv. Bye Felicia!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 10:53:26 PM
. . . posts the person who has yet to comment on the struck portion of the Declaration. Pouring wine, watching tv. Bye Felicia!

With all due respect, do you realize that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a governing document?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 10:55:22 PM
With all due respect, do you realize that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a governing document?

And where would we be without it? Supreme Court decisions have been made based on it as well as other non-governing docs.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 10:58:36 PM
. . . posts the person who has yet to comment on the struck portion of the Declaration. Pouring wine, watching tv. Bye Felicia!
Do not comment if you cannot back it up.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 14, 2017, 11:00:47 PM
And where would we be without it? Supreme Court decisions have been made based on it as well as other non-governing docs.

Indeed! And the people who rendered those decisions should have been impeached for making them!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 14, 2017, 11:03:02 PM
Indeed! And the people who rendered those decisions should have been impeached for making them!
We have been obviously talking to an individual who has no comprehension of what this country's history or historical basis is.

He/she/it has drunk the koolaid.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:03:46 PM
Indeed! And the people who rendered those decisions should have been impeached for making them!

There are many conservative wins based on our Founders's writings. I would hope those judges weren't impeached!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:07:49 PM
There are many conservative wins based on our Founders's writings. I would hope those judges weren't impeached!

The Federalist papers were used as a guide.  But it is ultimately the Constitution upon which those decisions were based.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:07:50 PM
There are many conservative wins based on our Founders's writings. I would hope those judges weren't impeached!

I'm too tired to look it up, but I think there might even be a 2A ruling based on the testimony of an English grammar specialist.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:09:42 PM
The Federalist papers were used as a guide.  But it is ultimately the Constitution upon which those decisions were based.

Absolutely! The justices do use our Founders' writings to base their rulings of modern issues.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:11:16 PM
Absolutely! The justices do use our Founders' writings to base their rulings of modern issues.

No, they used the Constitution to base their rulings.  Otherwise, it can't be defined as a Conservative decision.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:17:05 PM
No, they used the Constitution to base their rulings.  Otherwise, it can't be defined as a Conservative decision.

Really? I just did a quick search.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:17:55 PM
And?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:22:19 PM
And?

Jefferson's private writing on church and state. Also, a group of Xbox players are currently suing Microsoft. Never expected to see that!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: INVAR on August 14, 2017, 11:24:08 PM
With all due respect, do you realize that the Declaration of Independence is NOT a governing document?

No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:25:54 PM
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.

 :amen:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:25:56 PM
Jefferson's private writing on church and state.

I yield to @Bigun

Indeed! And the people who rendered those decisions should have been impeached for making them!


and to @IsailedawayfromFR

We have been obviously talking to an individual who has no comprehension of what this country's history or historical basis is.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:28:45 PM
I yield to @IsailedawayfromFR

Okay then! It's a free country, unless you are a slave!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: endicom on August 14, 2017, 11:29:02 PM
I’m coming, I’m coming, for my head is bending low:
I hear those gentle voices calling, “TOS”
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 11:30:17 PM
Good 'ol Alex Jones weighs in and never fails to push the limits of lunacy.....

The "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday saw aggressive clashes between demonstrators and counter protesters, with an anti-fascist killed after a car ploughed into the group she was demonstrating with at speed. But Jones claimed “leftist Jews” has dressed up as white supremacists to create clashes and discredit the rally.

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,” Trump supporter Jones said on The Alex Jones Show on Sunday.

“Literally they’re just Jewish actors. Nothing against Jews in general, but they are leftists Jews that want to create this clash and they go dress up as Nazis,” he added.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:30:31 PM
Okay then! It's a free country, unless you are a slave!

Slavery is unconstitutional.  You should try reading the Constitution when you have some spare time.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:33:15 PM
Slavery is unconstitutional.  You should try reading the Constitution when you have some spare time.

Aaaaand we're back to why the CSA states seceded!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:41:15 PM
Aaaaand we're back to why the CSA states seceded!

Why they seceded doesn't matter. The point is that they had the right to secede.

Your right to free speech is not conditional upon what you have to say.  Just as a state's right to secede is not conditional upon the correct reason.

And for the record, slavery was constitutional at the time of secession.  It wasn't until the Ted Cruz/John Fremont wing of the GOP was able to force the 13th amendment into the 1864 platform.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:42:32 PM
Why they seceded doesn't matter. The point is that they had the right to secede.

Your right to free speech is not conditional upon what you have to say.  Just as a state's right to secede is not conditional upon the correct reason.

And for the record, slavery was constitutional at the time of secession.  It wasn't until the Ted Cruz/John Fremont wing of the GOP was able to force the 13th amendment into the 1864 platform.

I posted earlier that I believe states have the right to secede. Their rights to secede end when the basis is the deprivation of the rights of others, namely slaves.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 11:42:42 PM
Good 'ol Alex Jones weighs in and never fails to push the limits of lunacy.....

The "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday saw aggressive clashes between demonstrators and counter protesters, with an anti-fascist killed after a car ploughed into the group she was demonstrating with at speed. But Jones claimed “leftist Jews” has dressed up as white supremacists to create clashes and discredit the rally.

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,” Trump supporter Jones said on The Alex Jones Show on Sunday.

“Literally they’re just Jewish actors. Nothing against Jews in general, but they are leftists Jews that want to create this clash and they go dress up as Nazis,” he added.

Jones channeling Yasser Arafat?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:43:09 PM
btw, still waiting for you to cite a Conservative Supreme Court case that was based on something other than these other (non-Constitution) documents you say came from our founding fathers.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:46:47 PM
I posted earlier that I believe states have the right to secede. Their rights to secede end when the basis is the deprivation of the rights of others, namely slaves.

No, it doesn't work that way.  You don't get to be the arbiter of that right.  Either they have that right or they do not.

btw, slavery remained legal in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri after those other eleven states left the Union.  So those eleven states did not secede so that they could legalize slavery.  It was already legal.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 14, 2017, 11:46:57 PM
Jones channeling Yasser Arafat?

Maybe.  I can recall many occasions where Arafat said in interviews, 'all I want is piss.'  There seemed to be plenty of bottles filled with it flying around on Saturday.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: corbe on August 14, 2017, 11:47:46 PM
    I like the TEXAS secession Threads better, JS.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 11:51:14 PM
Maybe.  I can recall many occasions where said in interviews, 'all I want is piss.'  There seemed to be plenty of bottles filled with it flying around on Saturday.


I just love this because its so much fun to ridicule Jones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2lhdZx0gJc
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:52:38 PM

Your right to free speech is not conditional upon what you have to say.  Just as a state's right to secede is not conditional upon the correct reason.

Libel, slander?
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 14, 2017, 11:55:51 PM
Good 'ol Alex Jones weighs in and never fails to push the limits of lunacy.....

The "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday saw aggressive clashes between demonstrators and counter protesters, with an anti-fascist killed after a car ploughed into the group she was demonstrating with at speed. But Jones claimed “leftist Jews” has dressed up as white supremacists to create clashes and discredit the rally.

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,” Trump supporter Jones said on The Alex Jones Show on Sunday.

“Literally they’re just Jewish actors. Nothing against Jews in general, but they are leftists Jews that want to create this clash and they go dress up as Nazis,” he added.

Ahh, the Joos are at it again  *****rollingeyes***** Seriously, Alex could be less predictable.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 14, 2017, 11:57:12 PM
Libel, slander?

Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.  Civil actions based upon someone exercising their right to free speech.  I never said there weren't consequences.  Yet free speech was nevertheless exercised.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Cripplecreek on August 14, 2017, 11:59:05 PM
Ahh, the Joos are at it again  *****rollingeyes***** Seriously, Alex could be less predictable.

I like juice.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 15, 2017, 12:00:23 AM
Ahh, the Joos are at it again  *****rollingeyes***** Seriously, Alex could be less predictable

Now that I think about it, he may have a point. 

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,”

Maybe Michael Richards was there?  He's got a history of racial utterances.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: dfwgator on August 15, 2017, 12:03:53 AM
Now that I think about it, he may have a point. 

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,”

Maybe Michael Richards was there?  He's got a history of racial utterances.


(http://static.rogerebert.com/redactor_assets/pictures/scanners/django-unchain-my-heart-and-set-me-free/blazingsaddleskkk-thumb-510x288-56892.jpg)

"....And now for my next impression......Jesse Owens!"
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 15, 2017, 12:06:53 AM
Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.  Civil actions based upon someone exercising their right to free speech.  I never said there weren't consequences.  Yet free speech was nevertheless exercised.

But you state that a state doesn't need a "correct reason" to secede.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 15, 2017, 12:09:59 AM
Now that I think about it, he may have a point. 

"I mean, quite frankly, I've been to these events, a lot of the KKK guys with their hats off look like they’re from the cast of Seinfeld,”

Maybe Michael Richards was there?  He's got a history of racial utterances.
.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goodwithagun on August 15, 2017, 12:12:32 AM
I like juice.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 15, 2017, 12:13:10 AM
Those would be civil actions - not criminal ones.

There's no federal law against it, but 15 states have criminal defamation laws.

Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 15, 2017, 12:35:50 AM
I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist.
THe first invasion wasn't even a State that had seceded, nor was it allowed to. There was bloodshed during that invasion, bridges were destroyed, rail lines disrupted to slow its progress, and the first dead of the war, shot by Northern Militias all happened in Maryland.

The opening verses of the State song, written by an expatriate in Louisiana:

The despot's heel is on thy shore, Maryland!
His torch is at thy temple door, Maryland!
Avenge the patriotic gore That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
And be the battle queen of yore, Maryland! My Maryland!

Hark to an exiled son's appeal, Maryland!
My mother State! to thee I kneel, Maryland!
For life and death, for woe and weal, Thy peerless chivalry reveal,
And gird they beauteous limbs with steel, Maryland! My Maryland!



source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/miscellaneouslyrics/statesongslyrics/marylandstatesonglyrics.html
 (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/miscellaneouslyrics/statesongslyrics/marylandstatesonglyrics.html)

Maryland voted for Breckinridge in 1860, but a vote on secession was not allowed until the Legislature had been replaced during the war. Maryland remained an occupied State for the duration and beyond.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 15, 2017, 12:41:19 AM
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.
Well said!
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 15, 2017, 12:51:12 AM
I posted earlier that I believe states have the right to secede. Their rights to secede end when the basis is the deprivation of the rights of others, namely slaves.
A right's existence is not contingent on the motivation for the action.
 
Slavery was an issue (a threat of economic sanction), but economics were the reason for the secession.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: HonestJohn on August 15, 2017, 01:16:58 AM
I've resisted responding to your anti-Confederate rhetoric, claiming my ancestors were treasonous, etc.

Guess what buddy....  6 of 7 of my direct civil war ancestors did not own slaves, but fought with valor for their homeland.

So answer this.   A foreign power invades your land.  (Which the north did first in VA), threatening your economic well being, and way of life.  You just lay down? 

You have been seriously brainwashed by the PC history revisionist.

America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Smokin Joe on August 15, 2017, 01:46:58 AM
America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.
IIRC, the matter at issue was exactly whether the States in Secession were Federal Land.
(I thought that was limited to the federal District and some military outposts).
Trial by combat often does not produce justice.
As for secession, we'll see, won't we? California may be the next test case.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: INVAR on August 15, 2017, 02:19:04 AM
But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.

Had the Colonies lost to the Crown, King George III would be singing the same exact tune.

However, none of that diminishes the truth of what was outlined in the Declaration.  Tyranny is imposed by force.

Which is exactly all your line of reasoning is.

Just another variation of 'Bake the cake!"  No, you may NOT refuse to do as we say!

All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Sighlass on August 15, 2017, 03:18:17 AM
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.


Agree the Declaration is Independence is part of our law system.

@INVAR

Natural Law

http://www.visionandvalues.org/barker/
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: catfish1957 on August 15, 2017, 06:02:13 AM
America is a foreign power in its own land?

Who's brainwashed again?

I pointed out the obvious, that one can argue hypothetical points of law until the cows come home.  But at the end of the day, history shows what really happened.  1,264,000 Americans died and there is no Confederacy.

For America will fight a major war to stop any rebellious state from trying to secede.

A foreign force tearing  through a seceded land is not an invasion? Do you understand what that sounds like?  I bet you were cheerleading as Sherman was raping and pillaging through Georgia and SC in that non-invasion.

Yeah, you never answered my question about whether my ancestors were treasonous for defending themselves.  Yep, you are past brainwashed.  You have terminally succumbed to the PC historical revisonist propaganda.  A full tilt dumbing down.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 15, 2017, 07:12:38 AM
The Federalist papers were used as a guide.  But it is ultimately the Constitution upon which those decisions were based.

Many things have been cited as dicta in court decisions but very few of those decisions were rendered on the basis of those things.  I think @IsailedawayfromFR  is right about @goodwithagun not being up to speed on this subject.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Bigun on August 15, 2017, 07:28:31 AM
No.  It's more important than the Constitution.

It's the ESTABLISHING document by which the governing document derives its existence.

Without the Establishing document - there is no governing document that would have been created for the sole purpose of limiting governance to very specific and menial things necessary for a civil society to exist with its liberty intact.

Our rights, nor the existence of liberty comes from any document from men.  It is established along with fundamental rights that a people possess to abolish the forms to which they are grown accustomed which evinces the design to render them under absolute despotism.  A reality we now live in that we lie to ourselves about because mankind are more disposed to suffer evil while evils are sufferable than right themselves.

So all kinds of excuses are made to justify existing under despotism, because such evil is sufferable, and any thoughts or efforts to abolish it are rendered distasteful by those unwilling to risk the thought of liberty.

The Declaration of Independence is EXACTLY what it says it is!  It is a DECLARATION proclaiming the many reasons why the Original 13 colonies were taking the action they chose to take against the King and his government.  Pretty much the same thing the 11 states who sought to leave the Union were doing!  But, as a legal matter, it is just a statement and nothing more.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on August 15, 2017, 09:00:03 AM
No, it doesn't work that way.  You don't get to be the arbiter of that right.  Either they have that right or they do not.

btw, slavery remained legal in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri after those other eleven states left the Union.  So those eleven states did not secede so that they could legalize slavery.  It was already legal.
Freedom works that way.  One is nothing but a slave if one is chained down and forced to be subjugated against one's will.  The Declaration of Independence spells it out pretty succinctly.  It was not about the issue of slavery as that was preserved, it was about the issue of freedom.

That is what @goodwithagun failed to grasp when he began talking about 'enslavement'.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goatprairie on August 15, 2017, 09:18:10 AM



@goatprairie
Grant's wife had owned a few slaves which Grant obtained one through no effort of his own.  He wrote a letter of manumission in 1859 freeing the man named Jones (look it up...it's on the internet) and certainly owned no slaves during the war.
Grant also made mention during the war of "knocking out slavery."
Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: At least two seriously hurt in clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters at massive march in Virginia as governor warns public to 'stay away'
Post by: The_Reader_David on August 15, 2017, 09:20:25 AM
One of those clashes where you hope both sides lose.  What is concerning though is our history is systematically being erased from the south to placate BLM.  Unfortunately when the KKK and white nationalists are the ones standing up for these monuments, its hard for anyone else to see the cause as very sympathetic.

I'm afraid our attempt to educate our children with the true history of our country, both good and bad, is becoming much harder with the sanitization by some of the snowflakes and vilification by the others of prominent events and figures in our history.

Spot on.

I'd like to see a "plague on both there houses" movement by people who actually want to preserve Southern heritage that would take the position that monuments to Confederate figures who were irredentist after the Civil War be pulled down, while those who were models of reconciliation, at least late in life, be preserved with new plaques commemorating both their martial hardihood and their work of reconciliation.  That would leave Robert E. Lee's statues up, with plaques commemorating his kneeling beside a freed slave at the communion rail;  Nathan Bedford Forrest would be commemorated for repenting of founding the original KKK and ordering its disbanding and becoming a noted benefactor of the black community later in life; and P.G.T Beauregard commemorated for his work in the Reform Party in Louisiana, advocating for civil rights and voting rights for freed slaves.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: TomSea on August 15, 2017, 09:21:24 AM
The Declaration of Independence is EXACTLY what it says it is!  It is a DECLARATION proclaiming the many reasons why the Original 13 colonies were taking the action they chose to take against the King and his government.  Pretty much the same thing the 11 states who sought to leave the Union were doing!  But, as a legal matter, it is just a statement and nothing more.

This is exactly right. The DOI is a pep talk, a rallying cry, a great document but I guess, it's not exactly binding. I've heard that discussed before.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 09:47:07 AM
Grant also made mention during the war of "knocking out slavery."
Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.

During the War, Grant also was known to say, "Pass me another bottle of bourbon, Lieutenant!"


Certainly, a  number of Northerners, like Sherman, had no problem with slavery.
But the fact of the matter the institution was destroyed by the war never to recover.

The institution of slavery was destroyed by abolitionists like John Fremont who threatened to leave the GOP if they didn't make it part of their 1864 platform.  Not wanting to lose Fremont's support, Lincoln reluctantly agreed.




Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: HonestJohn on August 15, 2017, 09:53:31 AM
A foreign force tearing  through a seceded land is not an invasion? Do you understand what that sounds like?  I bet you were cheerleading as Sherman was raping and pillaging through Georgia and SC in that non-invasion.

Yeah, you never answered my question about whether my ancestors were treasonous for defending themselves.  Yep, you are past brainwashed.  You have terminally succumbed to the PC historical revisonist propaganda.  A full tilt dumbing down.

No one gets to claim defense when initiating war.

The Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians weren't defending themselves in the 1967 war.

The North Koreans weren't defending themselves as UN forces overran Pyongyang in the Korean War.

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goatprairie on August 15, 2017, 10:04:44 AM
@goatprairie

You won't find anything about individuals having the right to vote either.  Don't you think something as momentous as an individual having the right to vote would have something codified in the US Constitution?

Come to think of it, there is nothing in the Constitution that grants the right to free speech either.  Go figure.  Oh sure, it places a limitation on what the legislature can do.  But it doesn't give you the right to free speech.


Let's take a closer look at that wording, shall we?

Amendment X (https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/tenth_amendment):  The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Rights not delegated by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the states?  Gee, that would include the right to secede.  And as it specifically says, that right would be "reserved to the states respectively".  No twisting there.  It is exactly what it says.

Yet that is exactly what the United States was intended to be.  It is an additional check on the national government that makes it accountable to the States.
If you want to interpret the tenth amendment as a license for states to secede, I can't stop you. But it's ridiculous.
Do really think the fed. gov. would grant territories, the other 37 states, statehood if they knew that any time those new states could legally secede?  They would never have done so.
Why do you think the FFs ditched the Articles of Confederation for the union? If they had thought individual states were "sovereign" and had the right to secede whenever, they would have EXPLICITLY!! put it in the constitution.
If you look at it the whole idea of any state thinking themselves to be sovereign is ridiculous. If some other resident of my state, Wisconsin, went around babbling about being a "sovereign" country, he'd be treated as a lunatic.
I'm proud to be from Wisconsin, but I  think of myself as an American and not some citizen of a sovereign midwestern state.
No amount of nuts (and we have our share) in my state wanting secession would somehow justify secession.
You're trying to do that typical backwards justification for secession through a tortured interpretation of the tenth amendment. 
As to the issue of citizens being justified in rebelling against tyranny, tell me how the South was being tyrannized. The tariff issue had been discussed, but that certainly wasn't the reason why the Southern states rebelled as the Ordinances of Secession plainly stated.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 10:20:02 AM
The Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians weren't defending themselves in the 1967 war.

The Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians crossed the border and invaded Israel.  They were the aggressors.  Likewise, the North crossed the border and invaded Virginia.  They too were the aggressors.


In retrospect, as a Southerner I agree with Lincoln's purpose which was to preserve the Union.  And history shows it to be the right call.  But I am not going to change the facts and sugarcoat the events to portray one side in a better light.

The whole point here is to preserve history.  As George Santayana once said, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Robert E. Lee resigned from his commission and chose to serve his State.  Not slavery.  Not the Confederacy.  But Virginia.  In my eyes, he will forever be a hero to the Commonwealth.  And it galls me to no end to see his legacy impugned.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: catfish1957 on August 15, 2017, 10:25:41 AM
The Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians crossed the border and invaded Israel.  They were the aggressors.  Likewise, the North crossed the border and invaded Virginia.  They too were the aggressors.


In retrospect, as a Southerner I agree with Lincoln's purpose which was to preserve the Union.  And history shows it to be the right call.  But I am not going to change the facts and sugarcoat the events to portray one side in a better light.

The whole point here is to preserve history.  As George Santayana once said, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Robert E. Lee resigned from his commission and chose to serve his State.  Not slavery.  Not the Confederacy.  But Virginia.  In my eyes, he will forever be a hero to the Commonwealth.  And it galls me to no end to see his legacy impugned.

Well put.  Honest John is the real "lost causer"
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: edpc on August 15, 2017, 10:45:28 AM
The Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians crossed the border and invaded Israel.  They were the aggressors.

Not in 1967.  The Israelis launched a pre-emptive strike to prevent attack/invasion by the arab coalition.  They did, however, have just cause, due to the blockade (a recognized act of war) in the Straits of Tiran by Egypt, cutting off the Israeli port of Eliat.

Historians have argued whether the first shots on US troops at Ft. Sumter were the Union's just cause.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: catfish1957 on August 15, 2017, 10:54:11 AM

Historians have argued whether the first shots on US troops at Ft. Sumter were the Union's just cause.

And will be debated to infinitum.  Still 2 facts remain....

(1) The SC governemnt  asked that occupants of Moultrie/ Sumpter leave peaceably.

(2) On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina seceded from the Union, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie, spiking its large guns, burning its gun carriages, and taking its smaller cannon with him that were aimed at Charleston. (paraphrased from wiki)

In this tinderbox....... I can see (2) as an act of aggression
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 10:56:00 AM
If you want to interpret the tenth amendment as a license for states to secede, I can't stop you.


If you want to interpret ________________________ as a license to prohibit secession, I can't stop you.

Oh wait, you have nothing.  Nothing more than your own personal vision of tyranny that you would inflict upon an entire nation if given the chance.

Here's you: 
"States can't secede unless they have a very good reason that I approve of."


Nothing personal, but I will take the Constitution of the United States of America over that any day of the week.


Do really think the fed. gov. would grant territories, the other 37 states, statehood if they knew that any time those new states could legally secede?  They would never have done so.


But they did do so.


Why do you think the FFs ditched the Articles of Confederation for the union?


Why do you think the Founding Fathers ditched the "perpetuity" clause when drafting the Constitution?


If they had thought individual states were "sovereign" and had the right to secede whenever, they would have EXPLICITLY!! put it in the constitution.


By that same line of reasoning, if they had thought that individuals has the right to vote, they would have explicitly put that in the Constitution.  But they didn't.
You also won't find anything in the Constitution explicitly granting you free speech rights either.  So according to you, the Founding Fathers didn't want you to have it.


If you look at it the whole idea of any state thinking themselves to be sovereign is ridiculous.


Strawman.  No one is making that argument.

See:  Logical fallacies - Straw man (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html)


You're trying to do that typical backwards justification for secession through a tortured interpretation of the tenth amendment. 


Compare that to you offering an interpretation of _______________________.  Oh wait, you haven't offered up a damn thing other than your personal view of how the world should be and how you think that view should be imposed upon others at the point of a gun.  When faced with that choice, I will choose the Constitution of the United States of America every time.

btw, did you catch that part where it says "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution"?  Amazing.  The Founding Fathers made allowance for things that were not explicitly enumerated.  Imagine that.  Yet you willfully choose to ignore that, relying instead on your own personal view of how things should be.


As to the issue of citizens being justified in rebelling against tyranny, tell me how the South was being tyrannized.


Well for starters, there were the good citizens of Manassas waking up to the sound of Union cannon fire on the morning of July 21, 1861.


The tariff issue had been discussed, but that certainly wasn't the reason why the Southern states rebelled as the Ordinances of Secession plainly stated.


The reason doesn't matter.  It was Virginia's decision - not yours.  You do not get to be the arbiter of whether their reason was good enough or not.

Yet the open gap in your world view is noted.  Since you believe yourself to be the arbiter of who gets to secede and who does not, you open the door for the possibility of secession, which effectively trashes your earlier claims about explicitly stated Constitutional rights.

Trying to have it both ways will always make you look foolish.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: catfish1957 on August 15, 2017, 11:05:28 AM
I might as well be trying to teach calculus to Maxine Waters.

 :beer:
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 11:08:52 AM

Quote
So where is that perpetual union now?  Looks like all 13 states were effectively allowed to opt out of that perpetual union.

@Hoodat

Now you sound like one of those Black Lives Matter retards uttering,"might makes right" as you "liberate" designer sneakers from a shop you are looting.

Which,IN EFFECT,is what that asshat Lincon ended up doing to the delight of his criminal supporters.


You might want to check the level on your oxygen tank.  My point is that it is ridiculous to use the 'perpetuity' clause of the Articles of Confederation as the US Constitution basis prohibiting States from seceding.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
And will be debated to infinitum.  Still 2 facts remain....

(1) The SC governemnt  asked that occupants of Moultrie/ Sumpter leave peaceably.

(2) On December 26, 1860, six days after South Carolina seceded from the Union, U.S. Army Major Robert Anderson abandoned the indefensible Fort Moultrie, spiking its large guns, burning its gun carriages, and taking its smaller cannon with him that were aimed at Charleston. (paraphrased from wiki)

And . . .

(3) With the White House and Capitol within eyesight from Virginia soil, the Commonwealth of Virginia did nothing.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: INVAR on August 15, 2017, 11:17:59 AM
The Declaration of Independence is EXACTLY what it says it is!  It is a DECLARATION proclaiming the many reasons why the Original 13 colonies were taking the action they chose to take against the King and his government.  Pretty much the same thing the 11 states who sought to leave the Union were doing!  But, as a legal matter, it is just a statement and nothing more.
The Declaration establishes as immutable, the sovereign natural rights of men and their right to alter or abolish such government that they no longer want to be part of.  It is the foundational and fundamental precept IN WRITING that declares the foundational purpose of government and the right of a people to alter and abolish it.

SCREW the legal matters that make the state the Supreme sovereign (which is what this entire argument is about).   'Legality' outside the parameters of the covenant as ratified since broken has absolutely no authority other than what agents of the state demand when they put guns to our heads to force compliance.

Which is tyranny.

Which necessitates resistance by force, or we become subjugated slaves.

Period.  End of discussion.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: sneakypete on August 15, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
Indeed. I read the Declaration in a similar fashion: "all men" literally means all humans, not just those capable of overpowering others.

@goodwithagun @IsailedawayfromFR

Judging from some of the commentators on this thread,it wouldn't surprise me at all to see someone here arguing that "Mankind" exists without women.

I honestly think about a third of the posters on this thread have to have someone tie their shoes and empty their drool cups. They have staked out a kneejerk positions,and BY GAWD AND BARACK OBAMA,THEY AIN'T GOING TO ALLOW A LITTLE THING LIKE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE CHANGE IT".

Even President Abraham Lincoln has said the war he started had NOTHING to do with slavery,and here we are all these decades later,and the PC Public is saying Lincoln didn't know what he was talking about.

BTW,after I close out the thread today I will not be responding to it anymore. I have already said everything I have to say and backed it up with evidence none of you <NOPE> is interested in looking at,so from this point on it's just wasting time. I might as well be trying to teach calculus to Maxine Waters.

Cut it out, Pete.

- MOD

Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: goatprairie on August 15, 2017, 11:25:04 AM
If you want to interpret ________________________ as a license to prohibit secession, I can't stop you.

Oh wait, you have nothing.  Nothing more than your own personal vision of tyranny that you would inflict upon an entire nation if given the chance.

Here's you: 
"States can't secede unless they have a very good reason that I approve of."


Nothing personal, but I will take the Constitution of the United States of America over that any day of the week.


But they did do so.


Why do you think the Founding Fathers ditched the "perpetuity" clause when drafting the Constitution?


By that same line of reasoning, if they had thought that individuals has the right to vote, they would have explicitly put that in the Constitution.  But they didn't.
You also won't find anything in the Constitution explicitly granting you free speech rights either.  So according to you, the Founding Fathers didn't want you to have it.


Strawman.  No one is making that argument.

See:  Logical fallacies - Straw man ([url]http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html[/url])


Compare that to you offering an interpretation of _______________________.  Oh wait, you haven't offered up a damn thing other than your personal view of how the world should be and how you think that view should be imposed upon others at the point of a gun.  When faced with that choice, I will choose the Constitution of the United States of America every time.

btw, did you catch that part where it says "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution"?  Amazing.  The Founding Fathers made allowance for things that were not explicitly enumerated.  Imagine that.  Yet you willfully choose to ignore that, relying instead on your own personal view of how things should be.


Well for starters, there were the good citizens of Manassas waking up to the sound of Union cannon fire on the morning of July 21, 1861.


The reason doesn't matter.  It was Virginia's decision - not yours.  You do not get to be the arbiter of whether their reason was good enough or not.

Yet the open gap in your world view is noted.  Since you believe yourself to be the arbiter of who gets to secede and who does not, you open the door for the possibility of secession, which effectively trashes your earlier claims about explicitly stated Constitutional rights.

Trying to have it both ways will always make you look foolish.
I'm sorry sir..it's you have literally nothing in this argument. I don't believe I'm the arbiter of who gets to secede...there's nothing in the constitution that allows for lawful secession.
People who feel they're being harmed by an oppressive gov. have the right to rebel. That's what the Confederacy was...a rebellion. But there was no lawful secession.

People like you can claim you have the right to secede, but you don't. So you have to twist the meaning of the 10th amendment to reason backwards. Can you seriously say with a straight face that the founders in passing an amendment meant to define the rights of states while still claiming the supremacy of federal law provides for the rights of states to unilaterally leave? And that they would establish future states that supposedly would be sovereign countries?
 One state can't have any more rights than another under the constitution.  How in the world could a state like my state of Wisconsin, which previously was a territory,  be considered a sovereign country? Again, the whole idea is ludicrous.
Title: Re: The battle of Charlottesville: A continuing discussion thread about the War between the States
Post by: Hoodat on August 15, 2017, 11:39:32 AM
there's nothing in the constitution that allows for lawful secession.


There is nothing in the Constitution that grants you the right to vote either.  Does that mean you can't lawfully vote?


People who feel they're being harmed by an oppressive gov. have the right to rebel.


Your basis?


That's what the Confederacy was...a rebellion. But there was no lawful secession.


The Confederacy played no role in Virginia's secession.  Or in South Carolina's either for that matter.  When those states seceded, they were not part of any confederacy.


People like you can claim you have the right to secede, but you don't.


My claim is based upon the Constitution of the United States of America.  And your claim is based upon ___________________.

Oh, nevermind.   You still have no legal basis.  Yet you still feel inclined to dictate to everyone else what they can and can't do.


So you have to twist the meaning of the 10th amendment to reason backwards.


I twist nothing.  Here it is again:


The powers not delega