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General Category => National News/Current Events => Topic started by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 06:52:04 PM

Title: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 06:52:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tfOVg5R4ngA

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Atomic Cow on April 10, 2014, 06:54:38 PM
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 10, 2014, 07:16:39 PM
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.

No sadly there are far too many that support the government's position "it's theirs to do what they want".   Protect the turtles, the lizards, the freakin snail darter...to hell with we the people.

 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: sinkspur on April 10, 2014, 07:21:58 PM
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.

Oh for God's sake!!!

Most ranchers who graze their cattle on federal land pay fees for the privilege of doing so.  Bundy wants to graze his cattle for free.

Instead of trying to work this out, he'd rather provoke a confrontation.  He's going to lose all his cattle and have to pay the fees anyway.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 07:32:05 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 07:33:12 PM
Bundy was there long before the damn turtles. The Feds stole the land, and he's fighting back. Good for him.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 10, 2014, 07:43:33 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: mountaineer on April 10, 2014, 07:56:10 PM
Why not just fine him if he's violating a law? Why kill the cattle? Why turn this into another Waco?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Chieftain on April 10, 2014, 07:59:18 PM
Why not just fine him if he's violating a law? Why kill the cattle? Why turn this into another Waco?

And that's what they are risking here.  No telling how heavily armed BLM is, or how heavy their reinforcements would be if called upon.  Look at the proliferation of SWAT teams in local Sheriff's offices across the Country, and imagine what "the Feds" have access too.  For starters, most Sheriffs can't call in helicopter gunships.....

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 08:38:10 PM
From this article:
Quote
The Bundy Ranch has been in the family for 120 years..  Back in 1993, the government regulators placed a number of new restrictions on where the ranchers could graze their cattle to protect a turtle..  According to Cliven Bundy the change violated a number of laws and contractual agreements.  Bundy lost in court but is refusing to give up the family ranch. It looks like he has the support of his neighbors

http://grumpyelder.com/2014/04/nevada-obamas-epa-thugs-attack-citizens-with-dogs-and-tasers/ (http://grumpyelder.com/2014/04/nevada-obamas-epa-thugs-attack-citizens-with-dogs-and-tasers/)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 08:41:39 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 08:53:42 PM
OUTRAGEOUS: Ranch Protesters Tasered By Federal Agents


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ6H9vlEDA&feature=player_embedded

Article at link: http://patdollard.com/2014/04/outrageous-ranch-protesters-tasered-by-federal-agents/ (http://patdollard.com/2014/04/outrageous-ranch-protesters-tasered-by-federal-agents/)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 10, 2014, 09:13:34 PM
OUTRAGEOUS: Ranch Protesters Tasered By Federal Agents


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ6H9vlEDA&feature=player_embedded

Article at link: http://patdollard.com/2014/04/outrageous-ranch-protesters-tasered-by-federal-agents/ (http://patdollard.com/2014/04/outrageous-ranch-protesters-tasered-by-federal-agents/)

Look at 1:24 into the video.  The cop knees the dog toward a girl. 

Our country is gone.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 10, 2014, 09:20:37 PM
Look at 1:24 into the video.  The cop knees the dog toward a girl. 

Our country is gone.

Thanks! I didn't catch that. I noticed the other girl came up and gave him a round of hell, and told him to get that dog out of there.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 11, 2014, 12:34:52 PM
We are not going to agree about this!  :laugh:

To give a perspective - no one here owns land. Almost no one, at least, there are a few families that have grants from the Crown. The family moves or dies out, so does the grant. Yet I am entitled, as a land "owner", to enjoy my property from 3 meters down to 50 meters up. I may also use the common land for grazing sheep, walking or just messing around, with no fee or penalty to be paid. That is part of my title and may not be removed without a specific act of Parliament.

It could be argued that Federal lands are the equivalent of common lands. Owned and to be freely available to all.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 01:10:14 PM
I'm afraid that she has misstated the facts.  Her great grandfather did nothing more than rent the land

That's what they told the Indians too.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 01:14:18 PM
I'm afraid that she has misstated the facts.  Her great grandfather did nothing more than rent the land for the purpose of grazing cattle.  The "preemptive rights" she refers to seem to be the grazing preference given to people who already hold grazing permits which entitles them to special consideration over applicants for grazing permits who haven't acquired a preference.  As I read it, this sounds basically like a right of first refusal that prevents someone from leasing grazing rights out from underneath the person currently using them.

Those grazing permits were transferred down, ultimately to her father.  In 1993 the grazing rights were up for renewal.  For whatever reason he chose not to renew or to continue paying rent for the land he was using.

In other words, stripped of the terms of art used for agricultural grazing issues, his grandfather rented the land solely for the purpose of grazing cattle and the lease for that land was eventually transferred to him, Cliven Bundy.  In other words, his grandfather's original lease was assigned to him, something that happens all the time with regular commercial leases.  In 1993 he broke the terms of the lease when he stopped paying the rent, which is what the grazing fees are.  Ever since then, for the last twenty years, he's been trespassing on that property in violation of the owner's rights.

The mere fact that his grandfather paid money to lease the grazing rights doesn't make the land his just as my paying rent doesn't make me owner of the house I'm renting.  That he and his family invested money in building fences and such doesn't change things at all.  When a renter builds stuff on the land he's renting, that stuff becomes the property of the landowner; it definitely doesn't make the renter the owner of the land.

I'm sorry but Mr. Bundy is a scofflaw of the first order and is no better than an illegal alien who initially entered legally on a temporary visa and then stayed here after the visa expired.
People lease land to drill for oil, gas, produce coal and minerals. People lease land to erect commercial and residential buildings (usally very long term).

And in this case the rancher essentially leases grazing right from the fedgov for the land where he runs his herds.

He never did own the land, notwithstanding the longevity of his usage.

Many will feel it is heavyhanded for the fedgov to be able to unilaterally insert new conditions into said leasing/fee contract. But behind that is likely legislation, by duly elected representatives of "we the people."

If you as citizen/voter prefer the rancher to have status above the tortoises, you need to convince your fellow voters.

His failure to pay his fees, places him in a weaker position. He has lost continuously in courts.

Like the outcome or not, this is the rule of law in action. We haven't had new offshore drilling in California for decades. I don't like the result, but I have not forced an armed confrontation with government authorities to make the point.

Militia coming to Nevada with arms puts the political right in a weak position, but most of those types are just itching for a chance to show off their bravado, a few in person, and more from the safety of their keyboards.

And the case supporting this rancher is weak at best.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 01:27:31 PM
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 11, 2014, 01:34:38 PM
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.

This is all about revenge toward the White Man. 

I was thinking title insurance would protect the homeowner, but only financially...should the highest Court agree with the government.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
This is all about revenge toward the White Man. 

I was thinking title insurance would protect the homeowner, but only financially...should the highest Court agree with the government.

The funny part is millions of these acres are use-owned by Hispanic ranchers in the Southwest through grants given by the Spanish when they ruled the area. They still have 800+ years to go on their land use contracts.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 01:45:42 PM
An interesting question as to whether that title would survive the change in sovereign.  It is possible that it did.

I need to refresh my memory but I recall there was a case in the late 1800s where this exact issue came up.  The US had said they would honor these grants at one point as part of encouraging loyalty.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 11, 2014, 01:47:56 PM
An interesting question as to whether that title would survive the change in sovereign.  It is possible that it did.


LOL!   You wake up one day and your home is in "Mexico". 

And of course, you're there with no papers.....oh-oh!     
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.
If traced back, my deed leads to Spanish land grants. The "crown" deeded the land to selected rich educated people, to further the colonization process. Like it or not, that is how it worked and works.

It wasn't a "lease for years" or other variant. It allowed the fee simple deedholder to further transfer ownership the property.

Bundy has never produced any deed showing him as a fee simple landowner. He has been a holder of rights, like a lease.  When he quit paying his fees, he weakens any claims to the land whatsoever. He has lost in court every time.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 01:50:50 PM
Found it.. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ending the war with Mexico guaranteed honoring those land grants and contracts. The "An Act to Ascertain and Settle Private Land Claims in the State of California" was passed by Congress in 1851 and if title was presented, it would be honored (it was controversial because if they didn't have a written title or grant, they lost the land). This is specifically California but extended to much of the Southwest.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 01:55:24 PM
If traced back, my deed leads to Spanish land grants. The "crown" deeded the land to selected rich educated people, to further the colonization process. Like it or not, that is how it worked and works.

It wasn't a "lease for years" or other variant. It allowed the fee simple deedholder to further transfer ownership the property.

Bundy has never produced any deed showing him as a fee simple landowner. He has been a holder of rights, like a lease.  When he quit paying his fees, he weakens any claims to the land whatsoever. He has lost in court every time.

The 'fees' were not part of the original contract nor were they legally taxes passed by Congress. They were just claimed by the BLM under the guise of seizing property.

It would be very much like if your home falls under land under the aforementioned California ranchos (yes, different State but same principle) as much of LA, San Diego, and other areas do. The feds decide they want your land so they decide as technical land deed owners to start assessing you a fee to use your home so high, there is no way you can comply, so they then come in and take your home.

Many people think they own their land, but they don't, they only own the rights to use the land.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 02:03:28 PM
This is interesting. A while back LA Times exposed Harry Reid's connection to solar firms and massive donations to him. It is a former Reid staffer who now runs BLM. Guess what, this land is wanted by these solar firms for a new solar project (we know how these companies work with DC, a lot of $$ involved and political kickbacks).

http://www.futurnamics.com/reid_bundyranch.php

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 03:09:09 PM
This is interesting. A while back LA Times exposed Harry Reid's connection to solar firms and massive donations to him. It is a former Reid staffer who now runs BLM. Guess what, this land is wanted by these solar firms for a new solar project (we know how these companies work with DC, a lot of $$ involved and political kickbacks).

http://www.futurnamics.com/reid_bundyranch.php

Right! Rap sent me this on FB: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/04/09/the-federal-government-moved-some-cows-and-nevadas-governor-isnt-happy-about-it/#comments (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/04/09/the-federal-government-moved-some-cows-and-nevadas-governor-isnt-happy-about-it/#comments)
125 Comments
Discussion Policy

BumperPressdotcom

2:52 PM EDT

Don't believe for a minute the FEDS are representing the rights of the public. It's desert land suitable only for cattle grazing, which is what the Bundy family has been doing there for over 100 years. The cattle and the land are suited for each other. It's a symbiotic relationship. The desert tortoise is not being threatened by the cattle grazing but by the BLM who are euthanizing them by the thousands. His great grandfather bought the rights to graze his cattle on the land long before the BLM came in. The BLM ruthlessly destroyed a way of life for all the other cattle ranchers who grazed their cattle on that land. They have all since been driven out through intimidation, except for Cliven Bundy. The FEDS want the grazing land for the minerals and oil fracking deposits, not for saving the tortoises, who were doing fine for the past 100 years, until the BLM stepped in. It's nothing but a corporate takeover of public land. The current head of the BLM is Neil Kornze, a former land policy adviser to "Dirty" Harry Reid, who stands to make millions from the land deals. Cliven Bundy is an honest man and a real American who is being trampled upon by big government. It's all about ruthless tyranny usurping his constitutional rights now, and yours later.

Chocoholic Leprechaun

2:26 PM EDT
- Bundy is the last of 53 ranchers who grazed herds on this land. The rest have been driven off - and out of business.
- 20 years ago BLM "reclassified" the land Bundy's family has used for over a hundred years.
- Claims of protecting the desert tortoise are bogus because the BLM has started killing them in large numbers due to "lack of funding" to carefor them.
- BLM's replacement excuse is to make it a "conservation area", but conservation of this type of land does not preclude grazing.In fact, buffalo and bison roamed here.
- The BLM is destroying wells the ranchers built and maintained on the land (the "land restoration" they're doing).
- Cattle are being rounded up, at least in part, by helicopters and some cattle are dying due to running in the desert heat.
- In its wisdom, the BLM chose calving season for its raid. Calves are dying from being separated from their mothers.
- From Day 1 the BLM showed up with hundreds, including snipers stationed around the area, and Blackwater type mercenaries.
- Nevada state police on the scene have been turning their backs on the BLM because they don't approve of the tactics.
- County Sheriff Gillespie has refused to act to stop the BLM, although it is within his authority to turn back the feds when they act against thepublic safety of citizens.
- BLM is making millions on similar cleared lands in northern Nevada, auctioning mineral and gas rights onceranchers are cleared.
George74

12:48 PM EDT

If they had a case all the BLM had to do was attach the rancher's bank account so much a month. No need to spend three million dollars(!) rounding up his cattle, no need to run pregnant cattle to death with helicopters, no need to assault citizens by shooting them with tazers or pulling weapons on them, no need to block roads. This is about getting the cattle off the land so it can be used for fracking or some other use. I smell Sen Reid and his son in the background

More at link
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 03:28:56 PM
The funny part is millions of these acres are use-owned by Hispanic ranchers in the Southwest through grants given by the Spanish when they ruled the area. They still have 800+ years to go on their land use contracts.

One of the areas of federal control in Texas is "Padre Island" now a national seashore.  It is named after the original owner, a Spanish priest.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 03:36:57 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 03:47:34 PM
One of the areas of federal control in Texas is "Padre Island" now a national seashore.  It is named after the original owner, a Spanish priest.
Maybe lawyer Mark Levin can explain the legal issues. Or lawyer Hugh Hewitt.

Terms and conditions for contracts CAN be unilaterally changed, and the other party can either negotiate, accept and honor the terms, or the deal is finished.

He's a squatter, now.

Maybe the entire family could have found other lands, to graze their herds. His herds are not large in number, and suitable or better lands are probably available in nearby Nevada, Utah and Arizona.

That would be hard exacting work. And of course he'd have to pay.

I believe at the end of this, thoughtful conservatives will see the rule of law aspects.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 03:51:18 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 03:58:33 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 03:59:26 PM
Pointing a scatter gun into the air, and blasting away.....Harry Reid, fracking, solar, doesn't make a stronger case.

It is downright irresponsible urging a pickup full of armed militia yokels to go get shot at, for such a weak legal case.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 04:03:38 PM

Terms and conditions for contracts CAN be unilaterally changed, and the other party can either negotiate, accept and honor the terms, or the deal is finished.

Especially when one side disregards the rule of law.  General Motors ring any bells?

And I"m not saying this administration is the only one at fault in this case, but taking one's property via eminent domain for a freakin parking lot is NOT right.  This is only more of the same.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 04:04:14 PM
Want to know the absurdity of this BS?  Cows and drilling rigs have gotten along just fine in Texas for the past 60-70 years.
But what about tortoises?

One issue here appears to be the desire of the BLM to maintain a pristine environment for desert creatures, and getting them trampled by cattle is apparently not their plan.

A rational cattle rancher might find another parcel of land. Staying put, stopping rent payments, is not a viable long term business strategy.

This is not a strong legal case for the rancher.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 11, 2014, 04:08:14 PM
Maybe lawyer Mark Levin can explain the legal issues. Or lawyer Hugh Hewitt.

Terms and conditions for contracts CAN be unilaterally changed, and the other party can either negotiate, accept and honor the terms, or the deal is finished.

He's a squatter, now.

Maybe the entire family could have found other lands, to graze their herds. His herds are not large in number, and suitable or better lands are probably available in nearby Nevada, Utah and Arizona.

That would be hard exacting work. And of course he'd have to pay.

I believe at the end of this, thoughtful conservatives will see the rule of law aspects.

What has me pissed off is not the grazing rights - not my concern. It's the loss of the herd. A cow generation is 4 years - that is 25 generations of careful and selective breeding down the drain. Sold for peanuts to make burgers.
Let us assume he was raising beef cattle. Seems a fair assumption, since you don't open range dairy herds. Makes them kind of hard to milk. Unless his family lucked out, they have been buying bull semen at roughly $50 a straw for the last half century. Sure, maybe there was the odd inbreeding to fix a characteristic, but most of the time you buy it in. It usually takes two straws per cow to give you a 50:50 chance of a pregnancy.
Of those pregnancies, nearly 90% will be culls. Raised to about 18 months, then slaughtered. All the males and most of the females. Females at 4 years old (3 in the UK) are also slaughtered for their meat. It's pretty tough by then, but McDonalds and Walmart will buy anything.

That is a huge investment of time, money and attention - gone.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 04:09:15 PM
The Bundys ranched on that 600 acres of land since around the time Nevada became a state in 1864. Then, all of a sudden a turtle was considered endangered, which it isn't, and the feds began seizing land. Law or not, it's not the right thing to do.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 04:10:34 PM
Especially when one side disregards the rule of law.  General Motors ring any bells?

And I"m not saying this administration is the only one at fault in this case, but taking one's property via eminent domain for a freakin parking lot is NOT right.  This is only more of the same.
If you mean Kelo, I happen to agree. And the conservatives on the Court concurred with taking her house. That is one reason I don't go cultlike for anybody involved with politics.

I do not like that one bit. In my town, before Kelo, the Council decided to not use eminent domain in cases of residential properties.

So more than 20 years later, the pattern of development in a high traffic resort area, is broken by small residences next to giant parking structures, etc.

And if they decided to go the other direction, I think public opinion would weigh in again.

I don't recall all the details of Kelo, but if a parallel to my town could overlay it, the local residents would have stood with Ms. Kelo, to not take her home. I don't remember if they did, and the court ignored that.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 04:12:17 PM
But what about tortoises?

One issue here appears to be the desire of the BLM to maintain a pristine environment for desert creatures, and getting them trampled by cattle is apparently not their plan.

A rational cattle rancher might find another parcel of land. Staying put, stopping rent payments, is not a viable long term business strategy.

This is not a strong legal case for the rancher.

From what I've heard they're not even endangered.  Just because some dumb@ss can't fine one in the city...  OK different subject.

This has reference to the case I noted the other day on a different thread. 
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/62362 (http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/62362)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 04:18:24 PM
The Bundys ranched on that 600 acres of land since around the time Nevada became a state in 1864. Then, all of a sudden a turtle was considered endangered, which it isn't, and the feds began seizing land. Law or not, it's not the right thing to do.
Then what one does in our system of governance is get laws changed.

Maybe the political process will kick in and he'll get help in the form of a temporary injunction, barring the BLM from further action against his herd.

At the end of the day not everything in life is fair, nor does everything turn out your way.

BTW he should have paid the fees by the head, not by the acre. But he did not.

He could find other more suitable land, but he did not. He does NOT own the land in question.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 04:21:35 PM
If you mean Kelo, I happen to agree. And the conservatives on the Court concurred with taking her house. That is one reason I don't go cultlike for anybody involved with politics.

I do not like that one bit. In my town, before Kelo, the Council decided to not use eminent domain in cases of residential properties.

So more than 20 years later, the pattern of development in a high traffic resort area, is broken by small residences next to giant parking structures, etc.

And if they decided to go the other direction, I think public opinion would weigh in again.

I don't recall all the details of Kelo, but if a parallel to my town could overlay it, the local residents would have stood with Ms. Kelo, to not take her home. I don't remember if they did, and the court ignored that.

That's precisely what I was referring to as well as the confiscation of General Motors, turning it into Government Motors, then blessing the unions with a Christmas present.  I don't agree with any of it and the court be d*mned. 

As I said days ago, there is far more than meets the eye here.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 04:25:30 PM
His family ranched it for over 140 years. Back then Las Vegas and Reno wasn't even cities. There were other ranchers, but the government ran them off. The Bundy's are the last ranchers, and wouldn't allow themselves to be intimidated by the government. You can defend Reid and the government all you want, but what they did was unconstitutional, regardless what the law said...after the facts. I wouldn't be surprised if they are over-run with turtles.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 04:26:36 PM
Quote
As I said days ago, there is far more than meets the eye here.

Yes, there is!   :beer:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 11, 2014, 04:34:20 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 04:49:00 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 05:06:38 PM
Pointing a scatter gun into the air, and blasting away.....Harry Reid, fracking, solar, doesn't make a stronger case.

It is downright irresponsible urging a pickup full of armed militia yokels to go get shot at, for such a weak legal case.
Add to scatter gun claims, are now Brazilian interests are going to take over beef, and Chinese interests going to take over the solar--after the BLM drives the cattle rancher off, at the behest of Harry Reid.

Tea Party websites are egging people on, over this situation.

I'm worried some knuckleheaded follower is going to get himself hurt, or hurt somebody else over something they don't even understand.

On a more enlightened level, Isn't Gov. Sandoval a player? Couldn't the Nevada AG go into federal court, and ask for an injunction to stay these actions by BLM?



Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 05:50:33 PM
His family ranched it for over 140 years. Back then Las Vegas and Reno wasn't even cities. There were other ranchers, but the government ran them off. The Bundy's are the last ranchers, and wouldn't allow themselves to be intimidated by the government. You can defend Reid and the government all you want, but what they did was unconstitutional, regardless what the law said...after the facts. I wouldn't be surprised if they are over-run with turtles.
My great great uncle was born nearby 145 years ago. So by your criteria I prevail, right?

(1869 Nye County Nevada)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 05:52:06 PM
My great great uncle was born nearby 145 years ago. So by your criteria I prevail, right?

(1869 Nye County Nevada)

Did he stay and cultivate the land? The Bundy ranch has been in the same spot since around that time.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 06:20:55 PM
Did he stay and cultivate the land? The Bundy ranch has been in the same spot since around that time.
Yes he stayed for awhile. Depends on the definition of cultivate. Not much "cultivation" of open range.

But then he moved on to greener pastures, which did require building a canal for irrigation purposes, getting land granted from another state, etc. Some of them still there. In the middle of nowhere, not sexy at all, bitter climate, etc.  And they wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

But my father did want to be somewhere else, which was with my mother. And just to make sure, they moved back and forth a couple of times, between the two family locations.

In the end SoCal won over. Why shouldn't it? My family has been out west including California since the 1840s. Gold Rush. Mormons.



Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: mystery-ak on April 11, 2014, 06:38:01 PM
Breaking: Sen. Harry Reid Behind BLM Land Grab of Bundy Ranch (http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-harry-reid-behind-blm-land-grab-of-bundy-ranch/)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 11, 2014, 07:14:05 PM
With all due respect, Mr. Bundy is blowing smoke up everyone's collective dresses.  Facts, rather than opinion, can be gleaned from the various court documents which, stripped of emotion, clearly show that Mr. Bundy was originally granted a permit (a so-called "ephemeral permit") to graze the land in question - which is not the private land he owns that adjoins the grazing land in question - and that in 1993 he didn't like the terms on which he was offered a renewal of that permit, so he simply refused the renewal, stopped paying the grazing fees, and continued to graze his cattle on the land in the so-called Allotment.  In 2000 he decided that wasn't enough, so he started grazing his cattle on federal land to which he had never had a permit in the first place.

And there is no such thing as taking adverse possession of lands owned by the sovereign, which in this case is the federal government, so it doesn't matter how long he and his family have been grazing their cattle on federal land, whether with or without a permit.  He has no ownership claim to the grazing land, he is a trespasser, and the federal government is entitled to have him and his cattle removed.

If the admin will allow it, I have copies of some of the other court documents which I can let them upload to the forum's server so everyone can review them.

You are on the federal governments side of this? Seriously? They are turning this into Waco 2.0 and you post this? Who cares, it is about Harry Reid and greed. Are you the latest troll to post here?

Quote
US Senator Joins Critics of Federal Cattle Roundup

LAS VEGAS April 10, 2014 (AP)

By KEN RITTER Associated Press
 
A Republican U.S. senator added his voice Wednesday to critics of a federal cattle roundup fought by a Nevada rancher who claims longstanding grazing rights on remote public rangeland about 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas

Sen. Dean Heller of Nevada said he told new U.S. Bureau of Land Management chief Neil Kornze in Washington, D.C., that law-abiding Nevadans shouldn't be penalized by an "overreaching" agency.

Republican Gov. Brian Sandoval pointed earlier to what he called "an atmosphere of intimidation," resulting from the roundup and said he believed constitutional rights were being trampled.

Heller said he heard from local officials, residents and the Nevada Cattlemen's Association and remained "extremely concerned about the size of this closure and disruptions with access to roads, water and electrical infrastructure."

The federal government has shut down a scenic but windswept area about half the size of the state of Delaware to round up about 900 cattle it says are trespassing.

BLM and National Park Service officials didn't immediately respond Wednesday to criticisms of the roundup that started Saturday and prompted the closure of the 1,200-square-mile area through May 12.

It's seen by some as the latest battle over state and federal land rights in a state with deep roots in those disputes, including the Sagebrush Rebellion of the 1970s and '80s. Nevada, where various federal agencies manage or control more than 80 percent of the land, is among several Western states where ranchers have challenged federal land ownership.

The current showdown pits rancher Cliven Bundy's claims of ancestral rights to graze his cows on open range against federal claims that the cattle are trespassing on arid and fragile habitat of the endangered desert tortoise. Bundy has said he owns about 500 branded cattle on the range and claims the other 400 targeted for roundup are his, too.

BLM and Park Service officials see threats in Bundy's promise to "do whatever it takes" to protect his property and in his characterization that the dispute constitutes a "range war."

U.S. Rep. Steven Horsford, D-Las Vegas, noted that BLM officials were enforcing federal court orders that Bundy remove his animals. The legal battle has been waged for decades.

Kornze, the new BLM chief, is familiar with the area. He's a natural resource manager who grew up in Elko, Nev., and served previously as a senior adviser to Senate Democratic Majority Leader Harry Reid.

Reid aide Kristen Orthman said her boss "hopes the trespassing cattle are rounded up safely so the issue can be resolved."

Sandoval, a former state attorney general and federal district court judge, weighed in late Tuesday after several days of media coverage about blocked roads and armed federal agents fanning out around Bundy's ranch while contractors using helicopters and vehicles herd cows into portable pens in rugged and remote areas.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/nevada-governor-decries-blm-rancher-dispute-23265149 (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/nevada-governor-decries-blm-rancher-dispute-23265149)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 11, 2014, 07:23:38 PM
You are on the federal governments side of this? Seriously? They are turning this into Waco 2.0 and you post this? Who cares, it is about Harry Reid and greed. Are you the latest troll to post here?

Gazoo!

Whether you agree with his POV or not, he provides an intelligent, fact-based rebuttal on many broad statements said on behalf of Bundy.

I prefer more of a "We report  post....you decide" mentality.  Don't you?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 07:43:16 PM
You are on the federal governments side of this? Seriously? They are turning this into Waco 2.0 and you post this? Who cares, it is about Harry Reid and greed. Are you the latest troll to post here?

Facts (should) trump emotions for people capable of understanding the situation. Why does he lose in court for the last 21 years, long before Harry Reid or Barrack Obama?

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 11, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Facts (should) trump emotions for people capable of understanding the situation. Why does he lose in court for the last 21 years, long before Harry Reid or Barrack Obama?

Common sense should trump your know it all facts. Only recently did anyone care about where the cows grazed. Common sense should trump your thought that this man deserved to be seized Waco style, for Harry Reids greed.  Emotions? Wouldn't you be emotional if your ranch was raided and you were not a criminal?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 07:55:26 PM
Common sense should trump your know it all facts. Only recently did anyone care about where the cows grazed. Common sense should trump your thought that this man deserved to be seized Waco style, for Harry Reids greed.  Emotions? Wouldn't you be emotional if your ranch was raided and you were not a criminal?

Agree!
Quote
shady builder Jim Rhodes (the four lane improved highway to Searchlight goes right by Reid's land). Then there are the shenanigans involving the Coyote Springs development of lawyer/friend Harvey Whittemore where Reid moved mountains to obtain transmission line and desert tortoise rights ? now defunct the land is being repositioned for largess from a solar plant operator. Currently there is the Anderson Dairy scandal where dairyman (with real cows) and Republican member of the State Assembly Ed Goedart was forced to ship milk to California, then ship California milk back to Nevada while Reid supporter Andersen Dairy is given a waiver.
  http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 11, 2014, 08:07:56 PM
Agree!   http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWkS8tPZFRg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWkS8tPZFRg)

You don't have to buy the dudes book to know that Reid was not vetted and protected and mirrored by the radical Obama progressives.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 11, 2014, 08:16:04 PM
Gazoo!

Whether you agree with his POV or not, he provides an intelligent, fact-based rebuttal on many broad statements said on behalf of Bundy.

I prefer more of a "We report  post....you decide" mentality.  Don't you?

And I posted my POV. Knock yourself out valuing opinions. Reply to them. If you don't like my replies to them, lump it and don't read them.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 11, 2014, 09:25:16 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: mystery-ak on April 11, 2014, 09:35:06 PM
Sean will cover this story at 9central on his show at Fox
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 11, 2014, 10:25:29 PM
Common sense should trump your know it all facts. Only recently did anyone care about where the cows grazed. Common sense should trump your thought that this man deserved to be seized Waco style, for Harry Reids greed.  Emotions? Wouldn't you be emotional if your ranch was raided and you were not a criminal?
".....know it all" facts?  You're hurting my "feelings."
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 11, 2014, 11:33:13 PM
FAA just declared the space over the ranch a no fly zone with only BLM and relief (ie emergency) activity allowed.

Quote
NOTAM : 4/1687
 
FDC 4/1687 ZLA NV..AIRSPACE MESQUITE, NV..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS WITHIN AREA DEFINED AS 3NM RADIUS OF 364624N/1141113W (MMM71 RADIAL AT 4.3NM) SFC-3000FT AGL LAW ENFORCEMENT INVESTIGATION. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 91.137(A)(1) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT. ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF BLM ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE. BLM TELEPHONE 702-335-3191 IS IN CHARGE OF ON SCENE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACTIVITY. LOS ANGELES /ZLA/ ARTCC TELEPHONE 661-265-8205 IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. 1404112140-1405111434

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/notam_actual_4_1687.html
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: R4 TrumPence on April 12, 2014, 12:28:00 AM
The hardest part of getting licensed in real estate in NV was the state law test!  I have taken 3 state tests now and NV was the hardest and craziest and most of it dealt with the BLM! That is one agency that needs to go!!!  The regulations and the oversight are gestapo like!!!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 12, 2014, 12:58:04 AM
And I posted my POV. Knock yourself out valuing opinions. Reply to them. If you don't like my replies to them, lump it and don't read them.

Then please stop calling a poster with a minority POV a troll.

Thank you.   :patriot:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 12, 2014, 01:10:57 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bk-96rWCQAElQfP.jpg)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 01:13:22 AM
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.


Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.

The contract wasn't dishonored. Mr. Bundy voided the contract by refusing to pay the fees.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 12, 2014, 01:27:44 AM
The hardest part of getting licensed in real estate in NV was the state law test!  I have taken 3 state tests now and NV was the hardest and craziest and most of it dealt with the BLM! That is one agency that needs to go!!!  The regulations and the oversight are gestapo like!!!
BLM is federal, so that part is not exclusive to Nevada. Overall 86% of the land in Nevada is government owned.

I hope some trigger happy militiaman doesn't damage the conservative cause, because of what he "feels" the laws should be.  An act by militia will be tied to the Tea Party, to conservatism, and to Republicans.

A group that often proclaims we are a Constitutional Republic, that we are governed by laws not by men, had best sit still and take stock of what the facts are in this case, instead of "shooting from the hip."

There is a bunch of goofy stuff being claimed here, that is simply not accurate. Chinese, Brazilians, solar, fracking, Reno, Laughlin, etc.

I hope Bundy gets some legal and political help, gets his day in court again, etc. Unless he is hell bent on losing, he needs to be reasonable, willing to compromise.

Anybody with a serious mind, would have to consider his action to become $300,000 in arrears in grazing fees, puts him at a disadvantage in a court case.

In America, when we lose in court, we don't start firing guns. He's lost in court numerous times.

 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: NavyCanDo on April 12, 2014, 01:30:15 AM
America, home of the free.    It was a great ride while it lasted.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: R4 TrumPence on April 12, 2014, 03:41:16 AM
BLM is federal, so that part is not exclusive to Nevada. Overall 86% of the land in Nevada is government owned.

I hope some trigger happy militiaman doesn't damage the conservative cause, because of what he "feels" the laws should be.  An act by militia will be tied to the Tea Party, to conservatism, and to Republicans.

A group that often proclaims we are a Constitutional Republic, that we are governed by laws not by men, had best sit still and take stock of what the facts are in this case, instead of "shooting from the hip."

There is a bunch of goofy stuff being claimed here, that is simply not accurate. Chinese, Brazilians, solar, fracking, Reno, Laughlin, etc.

I hope Bundy gets some legal and political help, gets his day in court again, etc. Unless he is hell bent on losing, he needs to be reasonable, willing to compromise.

Anybody with a serious mind, would have to consider his action to become $300,000 in arrears in grazing fees, puts him at a disadvantage in a court case.

In America, when we lose in court, we don't start firing guns. He's lost in court numerous times.

 

I know it is federal, but it is quite a bit on the NV test. Which is the only part I had to take BTW.  My problem is exactly what you just posted. STATE LAND!  So why are the BLM involved at all?

If you follow what Bundy and others have been saying, there is a lot more to it, than he just not paying that "fee" all these years.

plus there is no reason for the BLM to go in all gestapo like we live in a banana republic!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 09:20:35 AM

I hope some trigger happy militiaman doesn't damage the conservative cause, because of what he "feels" the laws should be.  An act by militia will be tied to the Tea Party, to conservatism, and to Republicans.


The way I see it, the BLM is creating laws they "feel" are right.  Same BS as the EPA and numerous other federal agencies that are operating well outside of their jurisdiction. 

The common response is "if you don't like it, go to Congress and change the law".    Would that also apply to the other side also?  But they don't seem to have to do that, they just make it up as they go along.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 12, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 10:31:32 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlACbxhCEAAhYRb.jpg)

I tried saying this early on and no one seemed to hear.

The problem came from his cattle "trespassing" on the BLM's (ours) land.  It was said even the BLM does no know where the imaginary line is located between the ranch and the state/federal lands. 

If they are so concerned about the turtles, why don't they build a fence?  Must not be about turtles huh? 

Fences make good  neighbors but since the feds cannot even build one on the southern border, I suppose one here is completely out of the question.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 12, 2014, 10:39:26 AM
I tried saying this early on and no one seemed to hear.

The problem came from his cattle "trespassing" on the BLM's (ours) land.  It was said even the BLM does no know where the imaginary line is located between the ranch and the state/federal lands. 

If they are so concerned about the turtles, why don't they build a fence?  Must not be about turtles huh? 

Fences make good  neighbors but since the feds cannot even build one on the southern border, I suppose one here is completely out of the question.

The same people who are decrying Bundy's actions  would have been one of the ones decrying to tossing of tea into Boston harbor...
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 10:50:06 AM
The same people who are decrying Bundy's actions  would have been one of the ones decrying to tossing of tea into Boston harbor...

LOL, you have a good point there. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 11:28:03 AM
LOL, you have a good point there.

Maybe you're right, but that still doesn't mean that Bundy is not in the wrong here.

There is a highway that I've traveled daily for decades in South Florida, last year the State government made it a toll road and suddenly I was paying to use a road that I'd used for free for years.

If I run those toll booths, I will be arrested, and no matter how hard I try to argue that I don't agree with the decision to transform free roads to tolled roads, that I am not getting anything extra for those tolls, and that I have some sort of pre-eminent domain right to use those roads for free as a result of having always used those roads for free, the descendants of those people who threw the tea into the harbor set up the system of government that we all currently live under, and the law that was enacted which took my daily route to work from free to a tolled route, was enacted according to the governing mechanisms that they basically set into place, albeit bloated and dysfunctional.

The same basic situation applies to the Bundy case.

We can start to overthrow the government over situations like these, and God knows I think we need a whole new Constitution and government, but as that crazy old fart in the city council said, both sides better start setting up some funeral plans.

The tree of liberty is refreshed with the blood of both patriots and tyrants.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 11:39:06 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlACbxhCEAAhYRb.jpg)

The State gave the land over to the Federal government to manage it. That is as common as you owning rental property and giving the management aspect over to a management company.

If Bundy refuses to pay fees to the Feds, he's wrong... it was the State who gave the land over to the Feds to manage and collect the grazing fees.

I am as anti-Federal government as they come, but I don't see how Bundy is right here.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 12, 2014, 11:42:09 AM
Then please stop calling a poster with a minority POV a troll.

Thank you.   :patriot:

Why do you constantly defend people not engaged in real conversation of the same goals as most here; dire concern for our country to fix America from the brink? Ever notice they never engage in conversation of any other subject than this current Bundy one and defending the GOP Establishment? Who are you, their keeper? Let them speak for themselves.

Who are you to tell me how to post? Go whine and get me banned, I really don't care. Few here call these trolls out. When I have. Think real hard, about their reaction. They complained I cussed and showed bad mod manners. Then you pointed out I have no seniority here, they do. Whoopie flip! They never engage in the debate of their POV or goals. They ignore and attack when asked their political affiliation. There is a reason one of them has been banned from every site. Most are liberal posters recruited from DU from another site that failed at mixing conservatives with republicans. I had better debate with Libby than these people. So until I see differently you bet your sweet red-headed loving ass, I will call them trolls with the goal of disrupting and creating division.

This http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html  (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html)  is what they are defending. Only progressives are defending this. It is one thing to be a jerk like TOS and ban all in rampages for being trolls. It is another to sit by and watch them ruin a website with you as their nanny. Defending this issue and Harry Reid is quite odd. Let them defend their side of things. If they are real in their POV it would be clear too many here by now, don't you think? They don't need a protector.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 11:47:43 AM
Why do you constantly defend people not engaged in real conversation of the same goals as most here; dire concern for our country to fix America from the brink? Ever notice they never engage in conversation of any other subject than this current Bundy one and defending the GOP Establishment? Who are you, their keeper? Let them speak for themselves.

Who are you to tell me how to post? Go whine and get me banned, I really don't care. Few here call these trolls out. When I have. Think real hard, about their reaction. They complained I cussed and showed bad mod manners. Then you pointed out I have no seniority here, they do. Whoopie flip! They never engage in the debate of their POV or goals. They ignore and attack when asked their political affiliation. There is a reason one of them has been banned from every site. Most are liberal posters recruited from DU from another site that failed at mixing conservatives with republicans. I had better debate with Libby than these people. So until I see differently you bet your sweet red-headed loving ass, I will call them trolls with the goal of disrupting and creating division.

This http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html  (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html)  is what they are defending. Only progressives are defending this. It is one thing to be a jerk like TOS and ban all in rampages for being trolls. It is another to sit by and watch them ruin a website with you as their nanny. Defending this issue and Harry Reid is quite odd. Let them defend their side of things. If they are real in their POV it would be clear too many here by now, don't you think? They don't need a protector.

Name calling in a debate Gazoo, is a sign of immaturity.

Grow up.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 12, 2014, 11:49:05 AM
Gazoo - a total aside:

Thank you for reminding me of Libby (or k8tee??) I miss her rather a lot. She were a tough ass, could hold her corner against all comers, and was a very sweet person.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 12, 2014, 11:53:30 AM
Gazoo - a total aside:

Thank you for reminding me of Libby (or k8tee??) I miss her rather a lot. She were a tough ass, could hold her corner against all comers, and was a very sweet person.

I enjoyed debating Libby. She was real. Have a good day EC!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Gazoo on April 12, 2014, 11:55:29 AM
Name calling in a debate Gazoo, is a sign of immaturity.

Grow up.

Where did I name call?  If you don't like my post don't read it or report me.

Thanks for your valuable ever so wise, mature input.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 12:02:41 PM
Where did I name call?  If you don't like my post don't read it or report me.

Thanks for your valuable ever so wise, mature input.

Being called names for having an opinion that's not "popular" with other posters is what makes TOS what it is, and not what myst wants this place to be. I don't want to ignore your posts because then I'd miss the other valuable points that you make, but calling other people names because you don't agree with their point of view is wrong and immature, so grow up.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: flowers on April 12, 2014, 12:51:03 PM
BREAKING NEWS: BLM ends roundup of Bundy cattle

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25230368/major-development-in-bunkerville-cattle-battle-between-cliven-bundy-and-blm

Quote
LAS VEGAS -- The Bureau of Land Management has announced it will stop the roundup of cattle owned by rancher Cliven Bundy. The BLM says the animals have been illegally grazing on public lands for 20 years.

The BLM made the announcement Saturday morning, a week after rangers started gathering the animals off land near Gold Butte.

The agency says it is concerned about the safety of its employees and the public.

The I-Team has learned the deal to end the gather was brokered by Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie.

According to sources, the BLM wants to proceed with the sale of the cattle already gathered during the roundup but is reportedly willing to share the revenue from the sale with Bundy.

Sheriff Gillespie has been negotiating with Bundy
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 12, 2014, 12:59:03 PM
I enjoyed debating Libby. She was real. Have a good day EC!

You should have tried debating Libby about women's "rights"..................i.e. abortion.

She was a total jerk.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 12, 2014, 01:09:40 PM
You should have tried debating Libby about women's "rights"..................i.e. abortion.

She was a total jerk.

I never posted there. I must have missed some "good" stuff!  :whistle:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: mystery-ak on April 12, 2014, 01:10:31 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 12, 2014, 01:12:53 PM
I never posted there. I must have missed some "good" stuff!  :whistle:

She was good at pretending to be a decent and reasonable person, but she had very long claws when it came to the 'right' to kill babies.

There were others far worse, but she definitely wasn't any more rational than the majority of leftists out there.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 12, 2014, 01:13:47 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: flowers on April 12, 2014, 01:57:23 PM
I'll be interested if finding out how this came about!
I am thinking Harry Reid had a bit to do with this event today. The powers that be didn't want anything messy before the midterms.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 12, 2014, 02:55:54 PM
I am thinking Harry Reid had a bit to do with this event today. The powers that be didn't want anything messy before the midterms.

Good probability.  Filthy leftists trying to hide filthy behavior.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 12, 2014, 03:34:45 PM


Why do you constantly defend people not engaged in real conversation of the same goals as most here; dire concern for our country to fix America from the brink? Ever notice they never engage in conversation of any other subject than this current Bundy one and defending the GOP Establishment? Who are you, their keeper? Let them speak for themselves.


Who are you to tell me how to post? Go whine and get me banned, I really don't care. Few here call these trolls out. When I have. Think real hard, about their reaction. They complained I cussed and showed bad mod manners. Then you pointed out I have no seniority here, they do. Whoopie flip! They never engage in the debate of their POV or goals. They ignore and attack when asked their political affiliation. There is a reason one of them has been banned from every site. Most are liberal posters recruited from DU from another site that failed at mixing conservatives with republicans. I had better debate with Libby than these people. So until I see differently you bet your sweet red-headed loving ass, I will call them trolls with the goal of disrupting and creating division.

This http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html  (http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas/recent_lease_sales.html)  is what they are defending. Only progressives are defending this. It is one thing to be a jerk like TOS and ban all in rampages for being trolls. It is another to sit by and watch them ruin a website with you as their nanny. Defending this issue and Harry Reid is quite odd. Let them defend their side of things. If they are real in their POV it would be clear too many here by now, don't you think? They don't need a protector.

Gazoo!   You're beginning to remind me of Johnny Tyler (Billy Bob Thornton)  in Tombstone.   "I thought we was friends!"

It's not the poster I defend....it's the RIGHT of the minority opinion to be accepted and tolerated without somebody impugning their motives.

As far as all the other stuff in your post....    :shrug:   KMA!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 12, 2014, 03:53:36 PM
You should have tried debating Libby about women's "rights"..................i.e. abortion.

She was a total jerk.

I missed those. Figure if I father a child, or pick one up, I look after it - otherwise not my concern.

She did have some sharp insights on the up and down sides of term limits though.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 12, 2014, 04:11:28 PM
The way I see it, the BLM is creating laws they "feel" are right.  Same BS as the EPA and numerous other federal agencies that are operating well outside of their jurisdiction. 

The common response is "if you don't like it, go to Congress and change the law".    Would that also apply to the other side also?  But they don't seem to have to do that, they just make it up as they go along.
Apparently the BLM is operating under statutes dating to at least 1934.

It appears the popular opinion here is relying on Alex Jones for information, but it could get even worse than that.

We could all get stirred up about the management by fedgov of our interstate highways and waterways, get ourselves some camo costumes and guns, and go protest alongside the roads. Maybe cause a wreck or two, before we start firing.

I just can't decide which outlandish stuff to start with. Fracking, solar, beef, China, Brazil, Reno, Laughlin, Reid, Obama, Pelosi.

They all been plotting this since 1934?

BTW it is 192 miles from Bunkerville Nevada to Circleville Utah, Butch Cassidy's hometown. (Robert Leroy Parker)

He specialized in the non-violent art of robbing without killing. Highly intelligent, carefully planned, successful.  No camo gear needed.

Hopefully those involved in Bunkerville can come away without injury. But I worry that low information Militia will feel deprived of their fight some day soon, and make a mess of the conservative's chances in 2014 and 2016.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 05:59:47 PM
Maybe you're right, but that still doesn't mean that Bundy is not in the wrong here.

There is a highway that I've traveled daily for decades in South Florida, last year the State government made it a toll road and suddenly I was paying to use a road that I'd used for free for years.


The tree of liberty is refreshed with the blood of both patriots and tyrants.

Don't think there has ever been a fight or disagreement where one side is totally right and the other totally wrong, that's the way of things.

Bad comparison on the toll roads.  They tried that here and were told no, not going to happen.  They are not free to travel, I paid for them the first time as I'm sure you did for yours. 

Agreed on the last and I'm afraid it's getting closer and closer.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 06:05:39 PM
Don't think there has ever been a fight or disagreement where one side is totally right and the other totally wrong, that's the way of things.

Bad comparison on the toll roads.  They tried that here and were told no, not going to happen.  They are not free to travel, I paid for them the first time as I'm sure you did for yours. 

Agreed on the last and I'm afraid it's getting closer and closer.

We don't disagree on till roads at all.

You either pay the new tolls or you find other roads to travel.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 07:03:26 PM
Apparently the BLM is operating under statutes dating to at least 1934.

It appears the popular opinion here is relying on Alex Jones for information, but it could get even worse than that.

We could all get stirred up about the management by fedgov of our interstate highways and waterways, get ourselves some camo costumes and guns, and go protest alongside the roads. Maybe cause a wreck or two, before we start firing.

I just can't decide which outlandish stuff to start with. Fracking, solar, beef, China, Brazil, Reno, Laughlin, Reid, Obama, Pelosi.

They all been plotting this since 1934?

BTW it is 192 miles from Bunkerville Nevada to Circleville Utah, Butch Cassidy's hometown. (Robert Leroy Parker)

He specialized in the non-violent art of robbing without killing. Highly intelligent, carefully planned, successful.  No camo gear needed.

Hopefully those involved in Bunkerville can come away without injury. But I worry that low information Militia will feel deprived of their fight some day soon, and make a mess of the conservative's chances in 2014 and 2016.

They've been rounding up turtles since 1934?  Probably not eh?

Have heard of Alex Jones, but don't really follow.  have a link?

Outlandish?  How about confiscation of private property, I.E. the cattle?  what's next, the ranch?

Low information militia? Retired LE, ex military?  The ones I know are far from low info people.

Started this a while back and got hung up on the phone.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 12, 2014, 07:06:28 PM
We don't disagree on till roads at all.

You either pay the new tolls or you find other roads to travel.

 They exist in the cities, but so far we have kept them at bay in the country.   
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 07:47:33 PM
They exist in the cities, but so far we have kept them at bay in the country.

The point being that once they become toll roads you pay them.

Once the BLM was handed the management of those lands by the State of Nevada, you have to pay the grazing fees to whoever is collecting them.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 12, 2014, 07:55:37 PM
The point being that once they become toll roads you pay them.

Once the BLM was handed the management of those lands by the State of Nevada, you have to pay the grazing fees to whoever is collecting them.

The standoff proves that Nevada needs to change the way it operates. The people weren't being served by the BLM, but pocketbooks were. Sometimes you just have to take a stand and say, "enough is enough". People have rebelled against red light cameras after laws took effect and won. What's so different about this? There are other times that fed up people rebelled to change things. This is nothing more than a scheme to run ranchers off their land and using the government to do so. I hope this started something big. It's past time the government needs a shakeup.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 08:17:30 PM
The standoff proves that Nevada needs to change the way it operates. The people weren't being served by the BLM, but pocketbooks were. Sometimes you just have to take a stand and say, "enough is enough". People have rebelled against red light cameras after laws took effect and won. What's so different about this? There are other times that fed up people rebelled to change things. This is nothing more than a scheme to run ranchers off their land and using the government to do so. I hope this started something big. It's past time the government needs a shakeup.

You mean the Bundy family wasn't "being served".

 Most of the people of Nevada didn't appear to give much of a Shiite.

They keep re-electing Harry Reid.

Btw, this law has been in place for decades, and it's been upheld by the Courts.

If you don't agree with all that, then all you have left is armed insurrection to overthrow the Government. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 08:37:51 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: evadR on April 12, 2014, 08:59:23 PM
I dunno.

Did the feds show up to evict Bundy while "our guy" was in office? Did they send in armed troops and snipers?
Maybe that's why the militias showed up.

just askin'
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 12, 2014, 09:06:43 PM
Loki wrote above:
[[ In this instance that is not the case.  The BLM is not making up the law as they go along.  They are following the law as written and as construed by the courts, including the Supreme Court. ]]

That may well be true. But if the BLM was solidly "in the right" in this case, why did they suddenly decide to pack it in not long after it was revealed that there may have been some shady doin's by Harry Reid and some Chinese investors -- looking for land on which to build a solar farm?

When a government agency has a solid case -- and considering that the BLM, like every other federal agency is probably thoroughly permeated by leftist ideology -- they have no need to back off. I don't for one minute believe that they were retreating because of a "fear of violence", particularly if the law and past court decisions are on their side.

Nope. Somethin' else is goin' on here...
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: evadR on April 12, 2014, 09:27:04 PM
I dunno.

Did the feds show up to evict Bundy while "our guy" was in office? Did they send in armed troops and snipers?
Maybe that's why the malitias showed up.

just askin'

That is a decent question.  At least from the court documents and whatnot it seems that the BLM people were trying to find a way to work things out with Mr. Bundy and put a lot of time into it.

I am inclined to think that the prod that finally got them moving was the impending suit by an environut group over this turtle thing.

But even so, I do not think an armed militia is the proper response to this because Mr. Bundy is not innocent here, has played a very substantial role in getting things to this point, and the BLM could have done this many years ago.  From that perspective, the BLM effectively gave Mr. Bundy a lot more time to get his cattle in good order than he was given by the courts.

I agree.
My response was simply directed to the question posed "why didn't the militias show up before now".

I'll tell you what really bothers me about this whole affair...I consider myself to be a person who believes in the rule of law, even if I don't agree with the law. I don't believe in civil disobedience or violent demonstrations.

And yet, I feel good that the feds chose to back down, for now.  I'm very ashamed and disappointed in my government right now and feel it has lost total credibility in all respects.

If Barack Hussein Obama should somehow trip up and actually speak the truth about something, I wouldn't believe him and that's how I feel about this case against the Bundys. Our government has zero credibility.

That's sad.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: evadR on April 12, 2014, 10:26:30 PM

It would appear that the appearance of the militia helped get them to back down.  I suppose I'm just a little too risk-averse to want to play chicken with the federal gov't using militias.
True dat.
Funny thing is, up until now, I had never much cared for militias any more than I cared for the black panthers.

I may have to rethink that position.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: evadR on April 12, 2014, 10:29:27 PM
If that's what it takes to get this lawless government we have, and I'm speaking broadly here, to back down and rethink what they are doing, then maybe it's a good thing.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 12, 2014, 11:21:36 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 06:50:27 AM
That is a decent question.  At least from the court documents and whatnot it seems that the BLM people were trying to find a way to work things out with Mr. Bundy and put a lot of time into it.

I am inclined to think that the prod that finally got them moving was the impending suit by an environut group over this turtle thing.

But even so, I do not think an armed militia is the proper response to this because Mr. Bundy is not innocent here, has played a very substantial role in getting things to this point, and the BLM could have done this many years ago.  From that perspective, the BLM effectively gave Mr. Bundy a lot more time to get his cattle in good order than he was given by the courts.

Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 13, 2014, 07:13:34 AM
Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.

You don't need to. That is when you go for the groin.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 09:50:17 AM
Sorry, the armed militia is the EXACT response for these shenanigans.  You can't see the whites of their eyes when their boots on your neck.

The government's cheerleaders can say what they wish about the excessive show of force to collect, per said cheerleaders, back rent, but I also think the militia made the difference here. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 11:02:03 AM

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

Sometimes it requires a scoundrel to get the ball rollling.  It seems the core of the American Right are too busy with concern with their franchise opportunities and strings of poloponies to look up from their smartphones.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 11:02:51 AM
The government's cheerleaders can say what they wish about the excessive show of force to collect, per said cheerleaders, back rent, but I also think the militia made the difference here.

You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 11:03:19 AM
Sometimes it requires a scoundrel to get the ball rollling.  It seems the core of the American Right are too busy with concern with their franchise opportunities and strings of poloponies to look up from their smartphones.

I wonder where radio gadfly and finger to the winder Limbaugh will come down on this?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 11:04:37 AM
You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.

I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 11:06:22 AM
I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.

Anarchy IS tyranny.

What protection s the individual afforded in anarchy against a greater force?

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 11:08:38 AM
I support anarchy over tyranny.  I would at least pretend to think I have rights.

You have no rights in a country were anarchy reigns, or at least you have no one to protect you against the violation of those rights by people with greater strength.

Anarchy is constant strife and rule by he who wields the greatest brute force over the weak.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 13, 2014, 11:13:29 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: andy58-in-nh on April 13, 2014, 11:19:21 AM
Anarchy IS tyranny.

What protection is the individual afforded in anarchy against a greater force?

Anarchy is one form of tyranny, defined by an absence of laws necessary to protect human rights. Totalitarian rule represents the other extreme: the rule of men by means of unnatural laws that deny natural human rights.

Anarchy is not the answer to tyranny. The answer is ordered liberty: a system of constitutionally-limited and representative government based upon the rule of law.

It would be wonderful indeed if we were to return to one, some day.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 11:28:53 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 13, 2014, 11:29:53 AM

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.


Come on, that's a bit strong, don't you think?

Ever seen "Open Range"?  Great flick!


Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 11:50:56 AM
You guys are making a hero out of the wrong guy here.

This guy appears to be some sort of quasi anarchist who doesn't recognize or accept any law beyond his own wishes.

The land that he's had his cattle grazing on belonged to Mexico until 1848. Ownership of it was transferred to the United States at that time, a full 16 years before there even was a Nevada.

As per the 1864 Constitution of Nevada and every applicable court case since that time, the land remained the property of the United States, as it remains today the property of the United States.

Bundy refuses to recognize the validity of the United States government as well as the validity of his own State's Constitution. He's violated Court orders and has refused to pay grazing fees for 20 years.

Of all the entities that may own that land, he is the one who absolutely has zero claim to ownership of it, yet he insists that the land his his to use as he sees fit, at no cost to himself.

If you wish to uphold anarchy as patriotism that's your right, but remember that anarchy translates into tyranny by the strongest, which eventually leads to the loss of all liberty.

Beware what it is that you support.

Not in the slightest Luis.   I have rental property, I don't get to call in snipers when the rent is late.  I would have my ass thrown in jail so quick it would make your head spin.  You wish to tolerate this action by our government on it's own citizens?

What I have major issues with is the massive overreach by ALL government agencies these days, this is only one of them.   If "self proclaimed" conservatives support this behavior in our local, state, and federal agencies, this country is already lost.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 11:56:16 AM
You have no rights in a country were anarchy reigns, or at least you have no one to protect you against the violation of those rights by people with greater strength.

Anarchy is constant strife and rule by he who wields the greatest brute force over the weak.

There is fascist, trust fund tyranny as exemplified by the OWS crowd.  Then there is the other type of anarchy.  The anarchy of the sovereign man.  True libertarianism.  Where there is no government to pick through my garbage or my garments.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 11:59:40 AM

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

Really Loki?

I have always wondered if the situation would have turned out differently if more citizens had arrived on scene.

From what is being reported, the sheriff diffused the situation in Nevada, same thing could have happened in Waco if the feds would have included local LE.  But no, that wasn't the case, the feds had to show how tough they were.

If you wish to support saving the children by killing them, go right ahead.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 12:05:54 PM

I am sure that David Koresh would agree with you.

With all due respect, if this had turned violent, at least 50% of the blame for that would lie with these "militias."

It's too bad that the militias won't come out in support of more worthy causes, rather than coming out for a cheat, a trespasser, and a mooch off the taxpayer teat.

You have to wonder why they don't "Koresh" some of this little muslim hamlets.  You know, the folks who actually cause trouble and stir up misery.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: andy58-in-nh on April 13, 2014, 12:23:45 PM
There is fascist, trust fund tyranny as exemplified by the OWS crowd.  Then there is the other type of anarchy.  The anarchy of the sovereign man.  True libertarianism.  Where there is no government to pick through my garbage or my garments.

Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 12:26:00 PM
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

 :patriot:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 12:58:12 PM
Not in the slightest Luis.   I have rental property, I don't get to call in snipers when the rent is late.  I would have my ass thrown in jail so quick it would make your head spin.  You wish to tolerate this action by our government on it's own citizens?

What I have major issues with is the massive overreach by ALL government agencies these days, this is only one of them.   If "self proclaimed" conservatives support this behavior in our local, state, and federal agencies, this country is already lost.

If they stay there twenty years, in violation of court orders to vacate your property, and they threaten violence if anyone ties to remove them, people with guns and protective gear, overwhelming force, will be called, by you, to have them removed.

The government gave Bundy twenty years to abide by the Court rulings. If the same government takes twenty years to remove renters from your property after a Court orders them out, you'd be attacking the government for not doing its job.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 12:59:00 PM
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

Hear, hear.

Libertarianism is anarchy to authoritarians and statists.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 01:14:41 PM
Libertarianism is not anarchy. It is a philosophy of limited government, not one of no government.

Government has a purpose in a free society: to protect and enforce contracts, to secure individual rights against force and fraud, to adjudicate legal disputes, to secure the borders, to maintain public facilities and accommodations, and yes, to levy taxes to support its legitimate purposes.

Progressive statists have lately been using the straw man of "anarchy" as a means of attacking libertarian and Tea Party citizens, pretending in essence that the only alternative to a massive government powerful enough to read your emails and dig through your trash is a condition of total anarchy. They are lying, as always.

Those of us who want to be left alone to live our lives do not expect nor demand the imposition of anarchy, but rather a return to ordered Constitutional liberty as envisioned by America's Founders.

Who sets the limits?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 01:21:46 PM
Who sets the limits?

The people via their State and Federal Constitutions, neither of which Bundy recognizes as legitimate.

 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 13, 2014, 02:13:18 PM
The people via their State and Federal Constitutions, neither of which Bundy recognizes as legitimate.

 
His group of supporters must be impressed by the cowboy hat and tough talk, because it can't be for his demonstrated respect for our system of laws, through elected representatives.

Thousands of other ranchers pay their fees, under exactly the same system. What makes him special?

BTW Sharron Angle's husband was a BLM employee.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 13, 2014, 02:50:53 PM

I do apologize for the colorful language.  But the fact remains that he is a trespasser on someone else's property.  He knows that and he has openly admitted that he's a trespasser.  That makes him a lawbreaker.

I would like to put forward a rather blunt analogy:  Mr. Bundy is an illegal immigrant.  On the Bunkerville Allotment he overstayed his visa.  On the Gold Butte areas he simply took his cattle across the border without anyone's permission.  I'm not entirely sure why Mr. Bundy is a hero and all the rest devils.

Technically, you are an illegal immigrant.  :whistle:

Which Native tribe granted your ancestors land and permission to stay?

You knew I had to go there - the God of Mischief should expect it!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 03:04:14 PM
If they stay there twenty years, in violation of court orders to vacate your property, and they threaten violence if anyone ties to remove them, people with guns and protective gear, overwhelming force, will be called, by you, to have them removed.

The government gave Bundy twenty years to abide by the Court rulings. If the same government takes twenty years to remove renters from your property after a Court orders them out, you'd be attacking the government for not doing its job.

Something that continues to me misstated, I don't know whether intentional or not, but the Bundys were not and are not living on government (OUR) land.  The gubmint grass in question is next door.

You do understand what a sniper does right?  The scope on that rifle is not there to count turtles. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 03:38:09 PM
Something that continues to me misstated, I don't know whether intentional or not, but the Bundys were not and are not living on government (OUR) land.  The gubmint grass in question is next door.

You do understand what a sniper does right?  The scope on that rifle is not there to count turtles.

No one is saying that the Bundys are living on government land. Their cattle is grazing on government land.

No one is trying to take Bundy's home or his property. They are removing his cattle from government land because he hasn't paid his grazing fees since 1993.

The fact that he has (in the past) paid grazing fees should make it very clear, to even the most obstinate soul, that Bundy was using someone else's lad, since you don't have to pay grazing fees for your cattle to graze on your own property.

The snipers were there because Bundy has frequently threatened to use violence against anyone who tried to enforce the court orders.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 13, 2014, 04:32:32 PM
Okay!  Okay!  "Uncle" already!


Was just thinking that this may have been a teachable moment as to why our military and our U.S. bases don't allow soldiers to carry loaded weapons.

Even my son carried an empty rifle while on guard duty in Germany.

THAT'S why nobody got hurt.  Militia were steadfast in not shooting first.  Thank God none of them were like Boyd Crowder.

Imagine IF the rancher's supporters DID fire on the government...and it was discovered that they carried unloaded weapons?  Interesting...
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 13, 2014, 04:58:35 PM
Here are the Dry Lake Solar documents that used to be on the BLM website up until a day or so ago. Copies of court orders also included.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ke3ap5qfw101r71/5YXGPwqndA

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/th7etvwuuk815o0/IPvUa6xBit
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: andy58-in-nh on April 13, 2014, 05:04:28 PM
Who sets the limits?

Ultimately: the laws of God or Nature; take your pick. But people have a right to establish their own government, elect their own representatives, and to enact the rules by which such government must serve the people.  Our Constitution was designed for those purposes. It also includes the right to alter or abolish any government that exceeds its authority, especially when it violates inalienable human rights.   
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 05:08:42 PM
No one is saying that the Bundys are living on government land. Their cattle is grazing on government land.

No one is trying to take Bundy's home or his property. They are removing his cattle from government land because he hasn't paid his grazing fees since 1993.

The fact that he has (in the past) paid grazing fees should make it very clear, to even the most obstinate soul, that Bundy was using someone else's lad, since you don't have to pay grazing fees for your cattle to graze on your own property.

The snipers were there because Bundy has frequently threatened to use violence against anyone who tried to enforce the court orders.

Quite a few have blurred the lines on this.  And confiscating his cattle IS seizing his property. 

The snipers were there to prove who was in charge, who is the master and who is the peon.

I give up, you want that kind of government, fine.  Don't call me when they come for you and yours.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 13, 2014, 05:16:32 PM
Ultimately: the laws of God or Nature; take your pick. But people have a right to establish their own government, elect their own representatives, and to enact the rules by which such government must serve the people.  Our Constitution was designed for those purposes. It also includes the right to alter or abolish any government that exceeds its authority, especially when it violates inalienable human rights.

That would be correct.  How many people in the past 244 years have accused the government as illegitimate?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 13, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
Not in the least.  I was born here.  Ius Soli.  Same reason some people dislike "anchor babies."  My great-greats (at least) were the anchors, however.

That's funny.

From your avatar, I thought you were a Norse god....   :smokin:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: oldno7 on April 13, 2014, 05:54:00 PM
 I don't post here much, so I'll make it quick.

Is everyone here accepting of laws written by "lawmakers", for good or bad?(ie-we accept them)

Who writes laws enforced by the blm?

I'm done, see that was easy.

Better throw in a quote before I run..

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: katzenjammer on April 13, 2014, 06:21:34 PM
I don't post here much, so I'll make it quick.

Is everyone here accepting of laws written by "lawmakers", for good or bad?(ie-we accept them)

Who writes laws enforced by the blm?

I'm done, see that was easy.

Better throw in a quote before I run..

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

Good quote, you should post more often! 

One of the main problems that we have is that these (extra Constitutional for the most part) federal agencies write their own "regulations" which have the effect of "laws" actually written by the lawmakers that are supposed to have this authority (i.e., Congress and/or state legislatures).  Not only do these unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats write their own laws, but they have their own (armed to the teeth) enforcement divisions, and their own courts.  (And BTW, in these administrative law "courts," the citizen is not presumed innocent with the state required to make a case for guilt; it is basically the opposite, the citizen is presumed to be "guilty" with the burden of "proving" her/his innocence (and quite often being bankrupted in the process).)

This is one of the main ways that we have all been "criminalized" (referring to your Atlas Shrugged quote) and until it stops, the tyranny will just continue to harden day after day, as it has for decades.  Some will continue to cheer it on by taking the side of the tyrannical gubmint whenever possible, and others will fight it at every opportunity that presents itself.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: oldno7 on April 13, 2014, 06:31:37 PM
 Very well stated.

These were the points I wanted to bring up.

There is a lot more to this than a rancher refusing to pay a lease.


Here is a blm document showing the approved "renewable energy projects"

Of course one would take water from the muddy river, which empties into the Virgin river--you guessed it, just across from the land Cliven Bundy runs cattle.

This isn't made up info--these are facts.

All of the other renewable projects, flew through their EIS's,

ALL under the obama administration.

So it's clear--they get to choose where and how many turtles they can kill.

This has never been about cattle or turtles, it is clear.

www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/renewab...ewable_projects.html
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: aligncare on April 13, 2014, 07:34:42 PM

"There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them.
One declares so many things to be a crime
that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

I spent this weekend learning to navigate the new and old laws (now seriously being enforced) in healthcare.

HIPAA - Health Care Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, (established medical privacy laws). This is the legislation that put us on the road to nationalized medicine. We are currently seeing stepped up enforcement of HIPAA .

ACA, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) public law 111-148. Establishes provider screening and compliance programs.

Office of Inspector General (OIG) Report (June 2005) : The OIG determined that [significant numbers] of claims are in error or fraudulent.

DHHS AND DOJ ISSUE WARNING ON POTENTIAL EHR (Electronic Health Records) MISUSE  (Thursday, Oct 4, 2012)

-------------------

So, many doctors who are innocently unaware that a certain percentage of their customary practices are now illegal could find themselves getting a visit from the FBI, with jail time and fines in the millions of dollars simply for running afoul new regulations related to patient privacy and billing or for not being in "compliance" with HIPAA or Obamacare.

How does any of this help doctors get sick people well?


Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 09:37:05 PM
Very well stated.

These were the points I wanted to bring up.

There is a lot more to this than a rancher refusing to pay a lease.


Here is a blm document showing the approved "renewable energy projects"

Of course one would take water from the muddy river, which empties into the Virgin river--you guessed it, just across from the land Cliven Bundy runs cattle.

This isn't made up info--these are facts.

All of the other renewable projects, flew through their EIS's,

ALL under the obama administration.

So it's clear--they get to choose where and how many turtles they can kill.

This has never been about cattle or turtles, it is clear.

www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/renewab...ewable_projects.html


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Vx9EIsggqlY/U0lkfsT27JI/AAAAAAAAoBk/MDZnSkufs5M/s1600/Bk-nqfUIIAArsS9.jpg)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 13, 2014, 09:38:23 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L1Uzn7SdkR4/U0llEctrhHI/AAAAAAAAoBs/VBUCGVe2uMc/s1600/BlBLbuGCIAAuE8l.jpg)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: ABX on April 13, 2014, 10:32:27 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 13, 2014, 11:20:54 PM



Kena fails to mention one tiny little point:  A big chunk of the land Mr. Bundy is trespassing on is land that he never had a grazing permit for in the first place.  That makes everything else ring hollow.

This is actually sad.

There is such built up animus for the government, so much distrust and such pent up frustration that people are willing to believe any story that paints the government in a bad light, even when the facts do not support the memes. As the news circulate through the blogosphere, the story begins to take a life of its own, and suddenly we have protected turtles, Harry Reid and the Chinese and facts no longer matter.

I think that reason stops at a certain point, and people don't care whether Bundy is right or wrong. They just want to fight the government.

It's dangerous times that we live in.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SPQR on April 14, 2014, 03:57:05 AM
Just leave this guy in peace. The government is getting a little petty in fighting a rancher.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 14, 2014, 04:35:43 AM

I agree.  It's a shame also because all of that energy could be spent in so many more productive ways.  And it also ends up doing long-term damage because this will be portrayed to the undecided as just another reason to avoid the conservative "kooks" in November.

I respectfully disagree.  This may be exactly what's necessary to cut the dead wood from the legislatures.  People have long memories after situations like this.  It hangs with you like bile.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 14, 2014, 08:52:21 AM
I respectfully disagree.  This may be exactly what's necessary to cut the dead wood from the legislatures.  People have long memories after situations like this.  It hangs with you like bile.

You're going to cut "dead wood from the legislatures" based on the behavior of an individual who doesn't recognize the supremacy of either his State's or his nation's Constitution, who will not abide by laws and Court mandates that have been in effect for decades and who claims title to territories whose ownership has been settled for 166 years?

The Constitution of Nevada states that:

Quote
ORDINANCE

      Slavery prohibited; freedom of religious worship; disclaimer of public lands. [Effective until the date Congress consents to amendment or a legal determination is made that such consent is not necessary.]In obedience to the requirements of an act of the Congress of the United States, approved March twenty-first, A.D. eighteen hundred and sixty-four, to enable the people of Nevada to form a constitution and state government, this convention, elected and convened in obedience to said enabling act, do ordain as follows, and this ordinance shall be irrevocable, without the consent of the United States and the people of the State of Nevada:
      First. That there shall be in this state neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, otherwise than in the punishment for crimes, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.
      Second. That perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of said state shall ever be molested, in person or property, on account of his or her mode of religious worship.
      Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States

Bundy refuses to recognize that as law.

Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States says that:

Quote
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States;

Bundy refuses to recognize the power of the Federal government over the land that the Federal government owns.

So when you do cut all that dead wood, and you do set new laws in place and when that next individual comes along and decides that he doesn't want to abide by your new laws and that he will not respect either Constitutions or Court mandates, what will you do?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: evadR on April 14, 2014, 08:56:00 AM
This is actually sad.

There is such built up animus for the government, so much distrust and such pent up frustration that people are willing to believe any story that paints the government in a bad light, even when the facts do not support the memes. As the news circulate through the blogosphere, the story begins to take a life of its own, and suddenly we have protected turtles, Harry Reid and the Chinese and facts no longer matter.

I think that reason stops at a certain point, and people don't care whether Bundy is right or wrong. They just want to fight the government.


It's dangerous times that we live in.
So true.
It defines my feelings pretty well with the exception that I don't want to fight my government, I just want it to return to a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 14, 2014, 09:07:28 AM
You're going to cut "dead wood from the legislatures" based on the behavior of an individual who doesn't recognize the supremacy of either his State's or his nation's Constitution, who will not abide by laws and Court mandates that have been in effect for decades and who claims title to territories whose ownership has been settled for 166 years?

The Constitution of Nevada states that:

Bundy refuses to recognize that as law.

Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States says that:

Bundy refuses to recognize the power of the Federal government over the land that the Federal government owns.

So when you do cut all that dead wood, and you do set new laws in place and when that next individual comes along and decides that he doesn't want to abide by your new laws and that he will not respect either Constitutions or Court mandates, what will you do?

I don't mean this man or his situation specifically.  It's like an ear worm.  It reminds them of their trouble at DMV, a snotty receptionist at the town hall or their cousin Edwin's audit.  It's like a hemorrhoidal flare up.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: oldno7 on April 14, 2014, 09:13:30 AM
 What is actually sad is that an agency of un elected officials can write laws willy nilly AND  courts  uphold said laws!

Believing this agency(blm) does this for the benefit of We The People, is naive.

Knowing who the blm answers to is paramount.

blm---Dept of Interior--Secretary of the interior(Presidents Cabinet)--President

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We all know that no administration would use any agency to their political advantage....


Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: oldno7 on April 14, 2014, 09:43:23 AM
 On a related subject---

Who would ever think that Taxation Without Representation, might cause a war??
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 14, 2014, 09:44:36 AM
What is actually sad is that an agency of un elected officials can write laws willy nilly AND  courts  uphold said laws!

Believing this agency(blm) does this for the benefit of We The People, is naive.

Knowing who the blm answers to is paramount.

blm---Dept of Interior--Secretary of the interior(Presidents Cabinet)--President

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

We all know that no administration would use any agency to their political advantage....

The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: EC on April 14, 2014, 09:49:26 AM
The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?

The BLM originally had a decent purpose.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 14, 2014, 09:53:15 AM
The BLM reminds me of the EPA.  What is the difference?

The difference is Article IV, Section 3 of he Constitution of the United States.

I've said that we need a new Constitution, but everyone disagrees.

We need a new Constitution correcting all the loopholes and firmly restricting the powers of the Executive. We need to set irrevocable term limits in place for every position in the Federal government, and we need to make  the action of even trying to change that BY ANYONE IN ANY BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (Courts included) reason for immediate impeachment if not treason.

That's just a start.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 14, 2014, 09:20:57 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 12:04:30 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: pjohns on April 15, 2014, 02:10:27 AM
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 05:45:23 AM
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...

Backed off?  More likely realized there are many ways to cook a chicken.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 08:28:08 AM
I would imagine that the feds simply did not want another Waco or Ruby Ridge, to serve as a rallying cry against a heavy-handed government; so they simply backed off (and backed down)...

Being in violation of two separate Court orders, Cliven Bundy may be about to find himself in jail.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 08:31:03 AM
On a related subject---

Who would ever think that Taxation Without Representation, might cause a war??

Cliven Bundy has had more than his fair share of representation and more than his fair share of due process.  If you wish to analogize to the American Revolution, then Cliven Bundy is firmly in the British camp, not the American camp.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 08:36:47 AM
Let's say that we do that.

Let's say that we spill the blood, burn the cities, raze the fields and do all that it will take to fight that open fight.

Let's say that we win, and that we set things right.

That we set the Constitution in place, and that we set our institutions rights. The Courts, Congress, everything.

Then we get a man who will not abide by established laws (Both the Constitutions of the State of Nevada and the US Constitution clearly establish who the pieces of land in question belong to) will not recognize treaties made by the United States under its Constitutional powers set in place via Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of said Constitution  (Treaty of Hidalgo) will not recognize the Supremacy of his own State's Constitution when it clearly states who the land belongs to (Nevada Constitution of 1864), and who has the constitutional authority to manage them (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 U.S. Constitution), and that when that man takes his dispute to the Courts, the Courts find that he is wrong, and that he must abide by the laws and institutions that we shed blood to set in place, yet this man ignores every legal order issued by the Courts, refuses to abide by all authority, and threatens to do violence to anyone who tries to execute the Court orders.

Would you let that stand?

What good would your Constitution be then? 

Bundy is wrong.

He is dead wrong.

The Founders themselves put down Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion because they understood that once founded, the nation could not survive rebellions stemming from anti-government sentiment justified or not justified.

If you all really want to get behind someone, look up E. Wayne Hage and show his family some support.

Not this Bundy guy.


Shay's Rebellion is actually a very apt analogy
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 09:51:22 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 10:08:38 AM
Cliven Bundy has had more than his fair share of representation and more than his fair share of due process.  If you wish to analogize to the American Revolution, then Cliven Bundy is firmly in the British camp, not the American camp.

You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 15, 2014, 10:10:55 AM
You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!

 :beer:
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 10:13:02 AM
You don't leave fish to find fish.  This isn't a perfect situation but it is a point to rally.  Based upon OVERALL reaction against the feds, it's a start and a good one at that.  The fuse doesn't go in search of the match!

as luis has pointed out, geo. washington would disagree with you.  shay's rebellion led to greater centralization and empowerment of the federal government; Bundy's rebellion - if that is what it comes to - will do the same.  That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 15, 2014, 10:20:08 AM

That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.


You misspelled "turtle".



Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 10:48:09 AM
as luis has pointed out, geo. washington would disagree with you.  shay's rebellion led to greater centralization and empowerment of the federal government; Bundy's rebellion - if that is what it comes to - will do the same.  That's a pretty stupid price to pay for defending a scofflaw.

I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 10:56:20 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 11:00:52 AM
I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.

On federal land?  State law enforcement has only as much jurisdiction on federal land as the federal government allows them to have.  As far as that is concerned there is nothing for the states to take back because the Constitution expressly gives the federal government paramount jurisdiction over federally-owned land.

If people want their local lives back then they ought not live them on federal lands.  If I don't like the rules my landlord puts in my lease I have two choices:  (a) find a new place to rent, or (b) buy my own place.  I do not - unless I'm Cliven Bundy - have the right to call out thousands of armed vigilantes to make my landlord back down so I can continue living in his house rent-free and without any regard for his rules.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?
This is like stopping Common Core or closing national monuments during the sequester.  People want their local lives back.  If played wisely, it can be a boon.

Take what power back?

Quote
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 U.S. Constitution:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

The State of Nevada never had power over the land in question.

Are you suggesting that we should overthrow the Constitution of the United States?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: SouthTexas on April 15, 2014, 11:13:56 AM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 15, 2014, 11:21:13 AM
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: FEDERAL AGENTS STOLE BUNDY PROPERTY, & SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPusi7TXzH4&feature=player_detailpage
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 11:37:35 AM
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: FEDERAL AGENTS STOLE BUNDY PROPERTY, & SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPusi7TXzH4&feature=player_detailpage

Which makes Napolitano a hypocrite.

As a judge, he would have had Bundy arrested for ignoring his orders.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 15, 2014, 12:00:08 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 12:27:28 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: musiclady on April 15, 2014, 12:29:38 PM
Which makes Napolitano a hypocrite.

As a judge, he would have had Bundy arrested for ignoring his orders.

With tanks, weapons and thugs??

Surely you jest....
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 15, 2014, 12:29:57 PM
Another interesting post about Mr. Bundy's "contract" with the BLM. I have no way to vouch for its veracity. Take it for what it is:
==============
The Feds & the BLM are out of control. They spent over $3 million to harass Bundy & go after $1 million in grazing fees they say he owes. Also- They cut his grazing allotment down to where they were only allowing him 250 cows on 260,000 acres!!! Do the math! That is over 1000 acres PER COW!! It is also not enough cows to run the ranch profitably. That kind of land/cow ratio is nuts!!!
==============
source:
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3144592/posts?page=31#31

Again -- why sign an agreement imposed under such duress?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 15, 2014, 12:30:50 PM
Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 of the Constitution of The United States.
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States;
 

and the wheel goes round and round....... Wish Alan Dershowitz and/or Mark Levin would tell us their respective POVs.

Glenn Beck however, is quite a megaphone to provide the alternative POV regarding Bundy being hero or villain.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 15, 2014, 12:58:18 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 01:01:12 PM
@ Oceander and Luis

This has moved into the realm of perception.  What is the image of the full weight of the American government, tanks, soldiers, guys with sunglassed and bullet proof vests against a ragtag group of ranchers and cowboys.  Place this against the backdrop of single mothers with obamaphones and obamacare.
Fine, not all the Is are dotted and Ts crossed but this, this is the stand.  Let the parlor pundits discuss fine points over brandy and cigars, hale fellows well met, while the dirty work is to be done.  This man is our Pavel Trofimovich Morozov, captures the imagination of the American West. 
As someone else mentioned, why are other ranchers standing behind this man?  Do they regret signing over their inheritance like Esau?
You go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had.  The only failure in this situation is the lack of other places to start similar situations around the West.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 15, 2014, 01:43:12 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 01:53:02 PM
and the wheel goes round and round....... Wish Alan Dershowitz and/or Mark Levin would tell us their respective POVs.

Glenn Beck however, is quite a megaphone to provide the alternative POV regarding Bundy being hero or villain.

I'm a pragmatic sort of a guy. I seldom get caught up in the emotional aspect of an issue.

I see that the Constitution clearly gives the United States the power to manage that land as it sees fit, and I see that the ownership of the land is clearly defined.

I see people like Meghan Kelly and even Glenn Beck acknowledging the fact that Bundy doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, and I see that he's had his day(s) in Court and that he's lost there.

Our side of the political spectrum argues that the Constitution should be adhered to, and respected as the Supreme Law of the Land, until we get to a case like this, when we forego all reason and embrace emotions.

We all need to abide by one Constitution and we all need to abide by the decisions of our Courts, because otherwise we will never have a sustainable Constitution.     

So the first step in getting back to that Constitutional Republic we once were and the original intent of the Framers CANNOT BE the complete disregard of the Constitution, because once it becomes accepted practice that disregarding the Constitution is the proper way to protest unpalatable Constitutional actions by the government, disregarding every Constitution will become the norm, and no Constitution will ever be seen as legitimate.     
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 15, 2014, 02:04:22 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 02:19:08 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: aligncare on April 15, 2014, 02:51:45 PM
I'm a pragmatic sort of a guy. I seldom get caught up in the emotional aspect of an issue.

I see that the Constitution clearly gives the United States the power to manage that land as it sees fit, and I see that the ownership of the land is clearly defined.

I see people like Meghan Kelly and even Glenn Beck acknowledging the fact that Bundy doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, and I see that he's had his day(s) in Court and that he's lost there.

Our side of the political spectrum argues that the Constitution should be adhered to, and respected as the Supreme Law of the Land, until we get to a case like this, when we forego all reason and embrace emotions.

We all need to abide by one Constitution and we all need to abide by the decisions of our Courts, because otherwise we will never have a sustainable Constitution.     

So the first step in getting back to that Constitutional Republic we once were and the original intent of the Framers CANNOT BE the complete disregard of the Constitution, because once it becomes accepted practice that disregarding the Constitution is the proper way to protest unpalatable Constitutional actions by the government, disregarding every Constitution will become the norm, and no Constitution will ever be seen as legitimate.   

Well argued.

There's ample room to question whether this battle is worth it. As a legal loser, whether it risks the cause itself.

Yet, one can't help but root for the lone rancher! That grizzled, iconic figure pitted against the machine of state. I wonder if he signed the movie rights yet?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 04:55:26 PM
Ya know, these Constitutional and legal arguments are truly flying near the bizarre.  The other side had suspended the Constitution.  Torn it to shreds and wiped their mangy asses with it.  So you can fight and do what you need or you get ready to do this




[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: happyg on April 15, 2014, 05:02:51 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlMkEREIQAANIr5.jpg)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 05:25:50 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlMkEREIQAANIr5.jpg)

Jefferson is one of the guys who had a hand in drafting the Constitution.

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 of the Constitution of The United States.
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 05:29:20 PM
Win at all costs.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 05:29:23 PM
Ya know, these Constitutional and legal arguments are truly flying near the bizarre.  The other side had suspended the Constitution.  Torn it to shreds and wiped their mangy asses with it.  So you can fight and do what you need or you get ready to do this

So, shouldn't the fight be about letting no one violate the Constitution instead of letting everyone violate it?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 05:36:37 PM
Win at all costs.

People want to make this into something that it isn't.

They want to turn this into a little guy versus an oppressive liberal government.

That's not what this is about.

This is an individual who will not recognize the validity of his State's Constitution, the Supremacy of the Federal Constitution, or the authority of the Courts.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 05:48:07 PM
So, shouldn't the fight be about letting no one violate the Constitution instead of letting everyone violate it?

In a world of puppet shows and ice cream sundaes, yeah.  The Left has the destruction of the U.S. Constitution as their primary goal.  Part of that strategy has been to ignore and destroy at their will and wont. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 05:56:12 PM
In a world of puppet shows and ice cream sundaes, yeah.  The Left has the destruction of the U.S. Constitution as their primary goal.  Part of that strategy has been to ignore and destroy at their will and wont.

So how is the left destroying the Constitution in the Bundy case? 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: sinkspur on April 15, 2014, 06:01:19 PM
Well, it appears the right has found its equivalent to MSNBC's Bridgegate and CNN's Malaysian airliner story.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 06:02:56 PM
Well, it appears the right has found its equivalent to MSNBC's Bridgegate and CNN's Malaysian airliner story.

Pithy.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 15, 2014, 06:07:09 PM
So how is the left destroying the Constitution in the Bundy case?

Not yet visible although Harry Reid isn't too far away.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 07:10:48 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 07:40:56 PM
Not yet visible although Harry Reid isn't too far away.

It's not that it is "not yet visible", it is that in this case, there is no violation of the Constitution, only violation of Constitutional laws and Court mandates by Cliven Bundy.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: DCPatriot on April 15, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
Ya know, these Constitutional and legal arguments are truly flying near the bizarre.  The other side had suspended the Constitution.  Torn it to shreds and wiped their mangy asses with it.  So you can fight and do what you need or you get ready to do this

I've been thinking that too.....this Administration boasts that they will decide which laws to enforce and which ones they're not.

They are ignoring the most porous border in the South we've seen in a decade....to harass one remaining farmer.

Mark Levin was just discussing that the US government owns 25% of the United States land... Alaska and Hawaii excepted.  Why?

Furthermore, only between something like 4.6 to 6.5 percent of all land in the US is developed.

This administration is condemning many peoples' homes that happen to be surrounded by US parkland.  You think you're buying your paradise and instead, you lose it all.

Add in the fact that all new developments are preplanned and they crowd residences into small clusters.

This all smacks in the face of those of us born and raised on apple pie, baseball and Chevrolet.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 07:45:21 PM
This is so plainly in error I'm not even sure where to start.  I'm also pretty sure that there isn't any point to starting because no amount of reason or discussion seems to shake the belief that the federal government does not own that land and that Mr. Bundy can do as he pleases.

The only people disregarding the Constitution here are Mr. Bundy, his supporters and his enablers.  They are no better than Harry Reid and all the other Constitution-ignoring democrats/liberals.

I'll just pick one sentence:

Quote
The Founding Fathers never imagined the citizens of a state would be subject to such treatment at the hands of the federal government.

Three words:

The Whiskey Rebellion.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 07:49:21 PM
I've been thinking that too.....this Administration boasts that they will decide which laws to enforce and which ones they're not.

That was one of the lead comments on one of the FOX News shows earlier today, and FOX's comments were telling.

They pointed out that most law enforcement, from the street cop through to the President and AG, have wide discretionary powers as to which laws to enforce, and when, and which laws not to enforce but that citizens have no such discretionary ability, and that we're bound to obey all laws at all times.

Cliven Bundy lacks the right to decide which laws and whose mandates he will abide by.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 07:57:26 PM
It seems that there is something those urging violence are missing:  if an armed rebellion against the United States is successful, the Constitution will be irretrievably destroyed.  The legitimacy of the rebels' cause requires that the Constitution be illegitimate, that is, broken.  Because if the Constitution still stands, then the rebels' cause is nothing more than lawless armed insurrection.  In other words, those of Mr. Bundy's supporters who are calling for armed insurrection are not upholding the Constitution, they are attempting to destroy it.  They ought at least to be honest about that.

Plus they'd have the extra added bonus of engaging in the Constitutional definition of treason.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 08:04:02 PM
Still, that discretion cannot be boundless and it cannot be exercised in an arbitrary or capricious manner.  There must be some content to the president's duty to see that the laws are faithfully enforced.  The problems are finding the line between legitimate discretion and caprice, and what to do about an arbitrary, capricious executive.  In my view, the way to deal with such an executive is through the vote and through the courts.

Yet, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the people of Nevada will re-elect Harry Reid.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: truth_seeker on April 15, 2014, 08:19:12 PM
Yet, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that the people of Nevada will re-elect Harry Reid.
Last time around Reid was polling well behind a generic GOP opponent, until they picked the Tea Party's Sharron Angle, to oppose him.

Maybe with a stronger candidate, he can be defeated.

Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Fishrrman on April 15, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
Luis wrote above:
[[ We all need to abide by one Constitution and we all need to abide by the decisions of our Courts, because otherwise we will never have a sustainable Constitution... ]]

Judging from the behavior of the current administration over the last 5+ years, and the failure of Congress to oppose it, we don't seem to have "a sustainable Constitution" now.

Whatcha gonna do about it?

Luis also wrote in post #222:
[[ They want to turn this into a little guy versus an oppressive liberal government.
That's not what this is about. ]]

But, yes, it -is- what this is about.

Did you read my post #208 above?

I'll repeat it:
==============
The Feds & the BLM are out of control. They spent over $3 million to harass Bundy & go after $1 million in grazing fees they say he owes. Also- They cut his grazing allotment down to where they were only allowing him 250 cows on 260,000 acres!!! Do the math! That is over 1000 acres PER COW!! It is also not enough cows to run the ranch profitably. That kind of land/cow ratio is nuts!!!
==============
source:
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3144592/posts?page=31#31

I cannot verify if the numbers above are correct. But if they are, the land use "agreement" that the BLM tried to foist upon Mr. Bundy was indeed lopsided and "oppressive".

Mr. Bundy's side claims that the BLM forced the other ranchers in the area out of business. Again, if the numbers above are to be believed, that's easy to understand.

Brings to mind the scene in "The Godfather" in which Micheal Corleone tells Kay about the time his father and Luca Brazi visited someone. In Michael's words, "Luca Brazi held a gun to his head and said either his signature or his brains would be on the contract."

1,000+ acres per cow?
Where's the gun?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: pjohns on April 15, 2014, 09:32:00 PM
I'm not so sure centralization will be a consequence in this case.  It may be the perfect point for states to take some power back.  Who is better suited to react, respond and plan to conditions on the ground, a state agency or some agency suit in Washington?

This is a very good point, in my opinion. 
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: aligncare on April 15, 2014, 09:32:50 PM
Last time around Reid was polling well behind a generic GOP opponent, until they picked the Tea Party's Sharron Angle, to oppose him.

Maybe with a stronger candidate, he can be defeated.

They say you can't replace something with nothing. In Reid's case you can - and still get a better senator out of it.
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: aligncare on April 15, 2014, 09:55:23 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Oceander on April 15, 2014, 10:39:36 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on April 15, 2014, 11:32:43 PM
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 16, 2014, 07:11:25 AM
In word and in deed, the Executive branch has decided which laws they will enforce and which laws they will not.  Now, if that were a marriage, that would be cause for divorce.  If that were a business contract, that would make the contract null and void. 
This may be the worse but it is the last bit of puss that brings the pimple to a head.  You can decide if you will continue to be the aggrieved partner, the abused spouse or you can stand up for yourself and say "Not one more step!".
It's not a matter of being a "Keyboard Commando" or a hot-head.  It's standing up for what you will accept and what you will not.  The Constitution is a piece of vellum with words written upon it.  America however, is an idea, an ideal.  No man is above the law, not a rancher, not an AG, not a President.  If there were a press with teeth and not a giggle group of schoolgirl syncophants, this joker would have been long gone.
Let me give you a quick example about discretion.  I need a new fishing knife.  New Jersey, in all it's wisdom, has changed knife laws from blade length to "intent".  What did you intend to do with the knife?  That new knife would be kept in my tackle box.  Now it's a concealed weapon.  So, am I supposed to take a chance on Officer Friendly's mood on the "intent" of my knife?
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: aligncare on April 16, 2014, 07:46:46 AM

does this legislation call for a convention limited to certain specified topics, or does it just call for a convention?  if it just calls for a convention without restrictions, then it's a recipe for pure disaster.  people think the democrats engage in electoral fraud just to win ordinary elections?  then think carefully about just how much fraud they'll commit in order to gain control of such a convention, to completely redraw the Constitution to their own liking.

Specific amendments directing federal government to operate within the Constitution. But, I'm not an expert on this subject. Check out Liberty Amendments by Mark Levin and google article V convention of states for more detailed analysis of how it would work.

On the surface this appears a good idea and may be our only avenue for peacefully and legally reining in fedgov abuses.

The Blaze - Growing chorus of state lawmakers ... (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/20/growing-chorus-of-state-lawmakers-call-for-constitutional-convention-to-force-fiscal-discipline-in-washington/)
Title: Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
Post by: olde north church on April 16, 2014, 08:42:53 AM
As a matter of fact, to those without scales upon their eyes, this is just another step toward the Zimbabwe-zation of America.  Confiscation of land.  Militants at polls.  Transfer of wealth via health insurance policy payments.  Destruction of a nation by those unworthy to lead it.  Rhodesia on steroids.