The Briefing Room

General Category => Science/Technology => Topic started by: famousdayandyear on September 17, 2013, 06:16:14 PM

Title: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 17, 2013, 06:16:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKQhkny06A
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 17, 2013, 07:25:51 PM
Ford of Germany has turned out excellent vehicles for many decades.

The latest version of the acclaimed Ford Focus is essentially a Ford of Europe creation.

I bet the winning Ford Engine is designed in Europe, too. Most of what is taking place will all automakers was leading edge a few years back in Europe; namely smaller displacement, fewer cylinders, with turbocharging.

The base 5 series BMW, Audi A6, and Jags are all turbo 4 cylinder power plants. They have MORE horsepower and torque than V8s and 6s of just a few years ago. And higher fuel economy, as well.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 17, 2013, 07:31:17 PM
Gah.  I just thought it was a very funny video.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: ABX on September 17, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
Ford of Germany has turned out excellent vehicles for many decades.

The latest version of the acclaimed Ford Focus is essentially a Ford of Europe creation.

I bet the winning Ford Engine is designed in Europe, too. Most of what is taking place will all automakers was leading edge a few years back in Europe; namely smaller displacement, fewer cylinders, with turbocharging.

The base 5 series BMW, Audi A6, and Jags are all turbo 4 cylinder power plants. They have MORE horsepower and torque than V8s and 6s of just a few years ago. And higher fuel economy, as well.

One thing I've noticed in my constant business travels is it seems domestic brands in the US are released several years behind Europe.  A good example is the Ford Mondeo in the UK. I saw the new model Taurus in the US and recognized it as the Mondeo from about 3 years ago. (the 2011 Mondeo has similar technology's the 2014 Taurus. The 2012 Mondeo had the same body styling (with new Aston styled grill) as the 14 Taurus). 
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 17, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
One thing I've noticed in my constant business travels is it seems domestic brands in the US are released several years behind Europe.  A good example is the Ford Mondeo in the UK. I saw the new model Taurus in the US and recognized it as the Mondeo from about 3 years ago. (the 2011 Mondeo has similar technology's the 2014 Taurus. The 2012 Mondeo had the same body styling (with new Aston styled grill) as the 14 Taurus). 

Interesting.  Any thoughts on why?
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 17, 2013, 09:29:51 PM
One thing I've noticed in my constant business travels is it seems domestic brands in the US are released several years behind Europe.  A good example is the Ford Mondeo in the UK. I saw the new model Taurus in the US and recognized it as the Mondeo from about 3 years ago. (the 2011 Mondeo has similar technology's the 2014 Taurus. The 2012 Mondeo had the same body styling (with new Aston styled grill) as the 14 Taurus).
That is true. Until now, Ford placed the previous version of the Focus in the US, while Europe got the latest version.

It shows you that US  manufacturers' managements have not felt Americans were particularly discriminating.

But Americans have been, discriminating enough to buy German, Korean and Japanese cars.

BTW some of what the new Chrysler Corp is selling, comes from Fiat, namely the new Dart II.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 17, 2013, 09:51:47 PM
That is true. Until now, Ford placed the previous version of the Focus in the US, while Europe got the latest version.

It shows you that US  manufacturers' managements have not felt Americans were particularly discriminating.

But Americans have been, discriminating enough to buy German, Korean and Japanese cars.

BTW some of what the new Chrysler Corp is selling, comes from Fiat, namely the new Dart II.

The new Dart (a) is butt-ugly, and (b) has nothing whatsoever in common with the original Dodge Dart.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: ABX on September 17, 2013, 11:54:33 PM
Interesting.  Any thoughts on why?

My first thought is simply regulations. Different things are required in different markets and there are also different requirements in the manufacturing process. It may be easier and cheaper to roll out some things first there.

The other thing it may be is the diversity of the European market may allow for more experimentation to see what people like in the markets that have higher mark-ups. Roll out two or three different option packages and looks there then focus group it to see which ones go over best here. Then transfer that model to the domestic market.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: ABX on September 17, 2013, 11:55:20 PM
The new Dart (a) is butt-ugly, and (b) has nothing whatsoever in common with the original Dodge Dart.

They should have just called it the Dodge Neon 2.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 17, 2013, 11:56:43 PM
They should have just called it the Dodge Neon 2.

I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 17, 2013, 11:57:50 PM
My first thought is simply regulations. Different things are required in different markets and there are also different requirements in the manufacturing process. It may be easier and cheaper to roll out some things first there.

The other thing it may be is the diversity of the European market may allow for more experimentation to see what people like in the markets that have higher mark-ups. Roll out two or three different option packages and looks there then focus group it to see which ones go over best here. Then transfer that model to the domestic market.

I believe that crash standards in the US are more rigorous than those in most European countries, so perhaps it takes longer to get a design crash-worthy for the US regulators than it does for European regulators.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: flowers on September 18, 2013, 12:34:38 PM
The new Dart (a) is butt-ugly, and (b) has nothing whatsoever in common with the original Dodge Dart.
You got that right!
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: GourmetDan on September 18, 2013, 12:37:08 PM

Ya, but the engine is Ford's 999cc 3-cylinder turbo-diesel I believe.


Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 18, 2013, 01:01:42 PM
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: massadvj on September 18, 2013, 01:02:06 PM
Ford of Germany has turned out excellent vehicles for many decades.

The latest version of the acclaimed Ford Focus is essentially a Ford of Europe creation.

I bet the winning Ford Engine is designed in Europe, too. Most of what is taking place will all automakers was leading edge a few years back in Europe; namely smaller displacement, fewer cylinders, with turbocharging.

The base 5 series BMW, Audi A6, and Jags are all turbo 4 cylinder power plants. They have MORE horsepower and torque than V8s and 6s of just a few years ago. And higher fuel economy, as well.

Not just Europe.  I test drove a Mazda Speed3 6-speed last year and found it to be way more animal than I could handle.  I ended up buying the 6-speed 2.5 liter and find it's plenty fast enough and fun to drive.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: jmyrlefuller on September 18, 2013, 03:29:45 PM
The new Dart (a) is butt-ugly, and (b) has nothing whatsoever in common with the original Dodge Dart.
Oh... don't get me started on modern automotive designs.

It seems like ever since the late 1990s or so, pretty much every vehicle in existence has looked the same. Ever eager to make their cars as aerodynamic as possible, cars have become ugly (those swept-back headlights are not flattering), homogenous and bland. You could not make a car like the beautiful '66 Polara (my personal favorite) today.

Of course, the ever increasing mileage pressures (made even more onerous with the ethanol mandates) have not helped.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 18, 2013, 07:26:41 PM
Oh... don't get me started on modern automotive designs.

It seems like ever since the late 1990s or so, pretty much every vehicle in existence has looked the same. Ever eager to make their cars as aerodynamic as possible, cars have become ugly (those swept-back headlights are not flattering), homogenous and bland. You could not make a car like the beautiful '66 Polara (my personal favorite) today.

Of course, the ever increasing mileage pressures (made even more onerous with the ethanol mandates) have not helped.

Ethanol will kill the internal combustion engine.  It's destroying my car as we speak; and just about pricing me out of the food market.  Seen the cost of bread lately?   Or anything that uses good ole corn products?  What do they feed hogs these days.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 18, 2013, 07:32:31 PM
Ethanol will kill the internal combustion engine.  It's destroying my car as we speak; and just about pricing me out of the food market.  Seen the cost of bread lately?   Or anything that uses good ole corn products?  What do they feed hogs these days.
It goes beyond engine damage and food prices.

It serves to subsidize farmers growing corn, making lotsa money.

Merely another government "dole" that can't seemingly be ended.

Minorities, single moms, government defense contractors, real estate
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 18, 2013, 08:02:50 PM
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Rapunzel on September 18, 2013, 08:16:22 PM
We had one - yep ONE - candidate in 2012 who was anti-ethanol. The corn lobby defeated him in Iowa's primary.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 18, 2013, 09:13:36 PM

I'm not sure I would exactly call that leading from behind.  Since Ford presumably owns its European operations, including the design studios, it would seem to follow (so to speak) that Ford is, in fact, on the leading edge of design, it just does that designing in Europe rather than the US.
Point taken. It is fairly recent, that Ford have brought their best stuff to the US in a timely manner.

Until the current model, Europe used to be one model ahead of us with the Focus.

And the winning engine isn't used in the US at present. 
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: jmyrlefuller on September 18, 2013, 09:39:59 PM
We had one - yep ONE - candidate in 2012 who was anti-ethanol. The corn lobby defeated him in Iowa's primary.
You hit the nail on the head. The corn lobby, thanks to Iowa being first in line, has a disproportionate influence in American society, and I strongly suspect that they're part of the reason why that high-fructose corn syrup junk pervades so much of our food. (Pardon my digression here, but you can't possibly tell me it tastes the same as sugar. You can mask the corny taste with certain acids, which is how they do it in soda, but I can notice the difference.)

Anyway, back to the car talk...
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: Oceander on September 18, 2013, 11:11:51 PM
Point taken. It is fairly recent, that Ford have brought their best stuff to the US in a timely manner.

Until the current model, Europe used to be one model ahead of us with the Focus.

And the winning engine isn't used in the US at present. 

I think you are correct in that the design culture has moved from the US to Europe, as it seems it is Ford's European designers, not its American designers, who are on the cutting edge.

Wasn't Ford also planning on releasing a new Mustang model that was based on a European platform?
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 18, 2013, 11:19:04 PM
May I have one of these, please:

(http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/06/13/18/41/1967_shelby_cobra-pic-30251.jpeg)
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 19, 2013, 02:20:45 PM
I think you are correct in that the design culture has moved from the US to Europe, as it seems it is Ford's European designers, not its American designers, who are on the cutting edge.

Wasn't Ford also planning on releasing a new Mustang model that was based on a European platform?

Bottom line: While the US auto-industry continued to decline, they still did well enough with "light trucks" to survive. That is pickups and SUVs. Big vehicles, big V8 engines. Nothing particularly innovative there.

Meanwhile the international competition was advancing towards the next era, evidenced by the investment Toyota made in hybrid technology. And the investment VW Group made in clean diesel technology.

The problem for US companies is this: the competitors are not standing still. Once behind, the US firms stand little to no chance of leapfrogging to the front.

The Europeans use racing, to advance and to showcase technology. Audi (VW Group) have dominated LeMans racing, using diesel technology. Formula 1 uses variations of hybrid bits.

Meanwhile Nascar goes around and around ovals, in low tech vehicles, to the delight of their undemanding fans.

With a few exceptions, US firms simply don't participate in the highest levels of international racing.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 19, 2013, 02:57:46 PM
Quote
Meanwhile Nascar goes around and around ovals, in low tech vehicles, to the delight of their undemanding fans.

Ok.  You done took yo ignant stick and poked it right there at my lil ole heart.

Let's talk after you have visited a NASCAR shop and checked out the engine building department.  Where do you think all the technology in tire development, fuel efficiencies, weight to performance improvements, safety apparatus come from required to meet US specific mandated standards? 
PS:  Worked the circuit 1988-1996; know the best in the field.  Please retract that "undemanding", "low-tech" crap as a matter of professional courtesy.   Or come on down here and I'll take you to Charlotte.  You can see for yourself, seeker of truth.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: truth_seeker on September 19, 2013, 04:05:03 PM
Ok.  You done took yo ignant stick and poked it right there at my lil ole heart.

Let's talk after you have visited a NASCAR shop and checked out the engine building department.  Where do you think all the technology in tire development, fuel efficiencies, weight to performance improvements, safety apparatus come from required to meet US specific mandated standards? 
PS:  Worked the circuit 1988-1996; know the best in the field.  Please retract that "undemanding", "low-tech" crap as a matter of professional courtesy.   Or come on down here and I'll take you to Charlotte.  You can see for yourself, seeker of truth.
Since your involvement, GM and Chrysler have failed. GM got their best cars from their Australian subsidiary near the end. There are no no American interests represented in Formula 1, the premier auto racing series.

The demanding high tech stuff is happening in international series, like Formula 1, LeMans, German Touring Car, etc.

Since you asked so nicely, I will retract my remark  ""undemanding", "low-tech" crap as a matter of professional courtesy."

Retracted.

Next year Formula 1 will be running turbo 4 cyl. putting out about 700 hp, to 17000 rpm. And with the number of engines limited for the season.

Mario Andretti has started announcing races, for NBC Sports Network. There is a new world class track near Austin, built for Formula 1.

You go to Charlotte, I go to Laguna Seca. At Sonoma the Nascars have to turn both left and right.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 19, 2013, 04:21:24 PM
Quote
You go to Charlotte, I go to Laguna Seca. At Sonoma the Nascars have to turn both left and right.

You *could* go to Sonoma or Watkins Glen if you really were as open-minded as you claim.  BTW, Juan Fangio and Aryton Senna are heroes of mine.  I taught myself to drive an Austin-Healy 100 after just reading things Fangio wrote about driving--when I was 13.   Others are Stirling Moss and Niki Lauda.  Born and raised in NC, I grew up with Southern stock cars.  But I love ALL racing which has given so much to automotive advances over the years.

GM and Chrysler had/have bad *UNION* problems; and they did not have car guys running the joints.  And GM sucks developing new passenger cars. Ford is doing quite well.  My view is that Europe is a 'small' place compared to the United States; automotive requirements there are very very different.  Horse lane roads; relatively short distances. Apples and oranges.

Thank you for retraction.  And please do not patronize me by saying you complied because I asked *nicely*.  It is. seeker, simply an honorable thing to do.  Problem is no one understands honor anymore.  But thanks, anyway.

Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: ABX on September 23, 2013, 09:19:49 AM
Ok.  You done took yo ignant stick and poked it right there at my lil ole heart.

Let's talk after you have visited a NASCAR shop and checked out the engine building department.  Where do you think all the technology in tire development, fuel efficiencies, weight to performance improvements, safety apparatus come from required to meet US specific mandated standards? 
PS:  Worked the circuit 1988-1996; know the best in the field.  Please retract that "undemanding", "low-tech" crap as a matter of professional courtesy.   Or come on down here and I'll take you to Charlotte.  You can see for yourself, seeker of truth.

I look at NASCAR like a precision sniper rifle and F1 like a smart-bomb.  Snipers generally use the most basic of platforms, a simple bolt action rifle, and have fine tuned their rifle, ammunition, as well as their own skills to maximum performance. Smart-bombs are packed with millions in technology to reach out and touch the enemy from miles above.

Both maximize the performance for the application they are using and require immense skill and knowledge. The platforms are worlds apart but they are both effective for the use they were designed for. Apples and oranges.
Title: Re: And the Best Engine 2013 is. . .
Post by: famousdayandyear on September 23, 2013, 10:14:33 AM
I look at NASCAR like a precision sniper rifle and F1 like a smart-bomb.  Snipers generally use the most basic of platforms, a simple bolt action rifle, and have fine tuned their rifle, ammunition, as well as their own skills to maximum performance. Smart-bombs are packed with millions in technology to reach out and touch the enemy from miles above.

Both maximize the performance for the application they are using and require immense skill and knowledge. The platforms are worlds apart but they are both effective for the use they were designed for. Apples and oranges.

A wonderful illustration of the exceptional uniqueness of each form of racing technology.
I thank you especially for your appreciation of what we do down here in redneck country.
Let's hope NASCAR doesn't get all 'tech-y' on us--beyond what they have already done.
Thanks again from North Carolina.