The Briefing Room
General Category => Science, Technology and Knowledge => Energy => Topic started by: Smokin Joe on March 14, 2019, 12:05:23 am
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Trump’s EPA unveils plan to pump up ethanol as Big Oil cries foul
https://energynow.com/2019/03/trumps-epa-unveils-plan-to-pump-up-ethanol-as-big-oil-cries-foul/?source=de&wtv=geology@nemont.net (https://energynow.com/2019/03/trumps-epa-unveils-plan-to-pump-up-ethanol-as-big-oil-cries-foul/?source=de&wtv=geology@nemont.net)
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency on Tuesday released its proposed rule lifting a summer ban on higher-ethanol blends of gasoline to help farmers, putting the agency on a collision course with Big Oil which has called the move illegal.
The proposal to broaden sales of the so-called E15 rule marks the latest flashpoint in an ongoing battle between the corn and oil industries – two crucial constituencies for President Donald Trump – over America’s biofuels policy.
Corn farmers support any move by Washington that would expand their sales into the multibillion-gallon biofuel market, but oil companies dislike the competition and refiners say adding ethanol to their fuel costs them a fortune.
“Consistent with President Trump’s direction, EPA is working to propose and finalize these changes by the summer driving season,†said EPA Administrator Andrew Wheeler in a press release. “We will be holding a public hearing at the end of this month to gather important feedback.â€
E15 gasoline contains 15 percent ethanol, versus the 10 percent in most U.S. gasoline.
more at link...
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He promised this in Iowa. It's the one promise I had hoped he would blow off.
(where's the effing wall, hillary in irons, and the ACA repealed, root and branch?)
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I wonder where the Sierra Club and other environmental groups stand on this obvious increase in smog that this change will create?
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I wonder where the Sierra Club and other environmental groups stand on this obvious increase in smog that this change will create?
IIRC, someone did a new study that says the difference isn't that much....(just in time, too) *****rollingeyes***** **nononono*
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:facepalm:
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The article says nothing about mandating more ethanol, just allowing the sale of E15. Could be good thing if allowing those who want E15 to buy it resulted in less ethanol in E<=10.
No idea what they're thinking with regard to screwing with the production credits market.
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The article says nothing about mandating more ethanol, just allowing the sale of E15. Could be good thing if allowing those who want E15 to buy it resulted in less ethanol in E<=10.
No idea what they're thinking with regard to screwing with the production credits market.
There is no way corn based ethanol is a viable motor fuel without government subsidies and mandates. Period!
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The article says nothing about mandating more ethanol, just allowing the sale of E15. Could be good thing if allowing those who want E15 to buy it resulted in less ethanol in E<=10.
No idea what they're thinking with regard to screwing with the production credits market.
From November, 2018 https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/ethanol-industry-doubtful-of-epas-good-news-its-increasing-biofuel-mandates (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/ethanol-industry-doubtful-of-epas-good-news-its-increasing-biofuel-mandates)
It appears to be an increase in the amount of ethanol that is required to be blended with fuel stocks (regardless of how much fuel is sold). That's why the E15 thing, to permit mixing more ethanol in the fuel. I doubt that the E10 will go away, more likely have more ethanol blended in and sold as a higher octane option.
For those of us who drive older vehicles, though, it mean that we will be stuck buying fuel which would have voided vehicle warranties when the vehicles were produced, and which will likely cause some problems.
To replace my current fleet with new, equivalent, vehicles would cost well over a quarter million dollars. :shrug:
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From November, 2018 https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/ethanol-industry-doubtful-of-epas-good-news-its-increasing-biofuel-mandates (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/ethanol-industry-doubtful-of-epas-good-news-its-increasing-biofuel-mandates)
It appears to be an increase in the amount of ethanol that is required to be blended with fuel stocks (regardless of how much fuel is sold). That's why the E15 thing, to permit mixing more ethanol in the fuel. I doubt that the E10 will go away, more likely have more ethanol blended in and sold as a higher octane option.
For those of us who drive older vehicles, though, it mean that we will be stuck buying fuel which would have voided vehicle warranties when the vehicles were produced, and which will likely cause some problems.
To replace my current fleet with new, equivalent, vehicles would cost well over a quarter million dollars. :shrug:
Well that sucks.
On the bright side, they're building a Wawa near me, so I should have access to E0 without having to drive nearly as far.
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There is no way corn based ethanol is a viable motor fuel without government subsidies and mandates. Period!
Correctamundo. Not only can it not compete with gasoline, it can't compete with sugar-based ethanol either. If only there was a politician - some Senator from Texas perhaps - who would stand on principle and oppose corn-ethanol subsidies.
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Correctamundo. Not only can it not compete with gasoline, it can't compete with sugar-based ethanol either. If only there was a politician - some Senator from Texas perhaps - who would stand on principle and oppose corn-ethanol subsidies.
I seem to recall someone like that.
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Correctamundo. Not only can it not compete with gasoline, it can't compete with sugar-based ethanol either. If only there was a politician - some Senator from Texas perhaps - who would stand on principle and oppose corn-ethanol subsidies.
Yeah! That alone would do it! /s
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(https://www.nysun.com/pics/10013.jpg)
Let the Market decide: No Federal Subsidies.
(he won Iowa after that)
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Another outstanding conservative move by the Orange one. (/s)
sheesh.
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He promised this in Iowa. It's the one promise I had hoped he would blow off.
(where's the effing wall, hillary in irons, and the ACA repealed, root and branch?)
The wall is being built as we speak...Judicial Watch, Jim Jordon, others are working on Hillary crimes...ACA? YOUR John McCain was the ONE VOTE that stopped a total repeal of ACA. That Rino..did this. THAT IS ALL ON C0NGRESS. GOP did manage to removed the MANDATE...which was the main issue. Forcing people to buy into that NOT affordable, Hitler/Lenin , NOT about health, health plan. It was to tax us with 19 more taxes, and put in JOB KILLING REGULATIONS. They were removed too. Need to see if this is an old thread. I thought everyone already knew this? The wall is not a magic wall. Poof...there it is. Why are you so pissed at my president? BLAME THE RESISTANCE AND OBSTRUCTIONIST...CONGRESS.
President TRUMP is not a dictator. Most of you want him to act like one..EXCEPT when you don't want him to act like one.
E.O. on slowing down H-1B visa's. I posted two video's on that too. Those were put in 1990! People are blaming President TRUMP for that too. Is it a full moon? Something in the water? TROLL SHILLS getting to you all? DEMON-RATS are stepping up their program to bash president TRUMP..even MORE!
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xs1P1olxR4#)
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I seem to recall someone like that.
NOPE....just another con artist, professional politician. People never learn. Just like those who want socialism.
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Friggin idiot.
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(https://hottopic.scene7.com/is/image/HotTopic/11240428_hi?$pdp_hero_standard$)
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Walk away movement. Now, DEMON-RATS...are putting out more negative items about TRUMP. You will have no America if you keep bashing president TRUMP. He is our last chance. You have been warned. Blame yourself's when we become like Venezuela.
New York De-Blasio, now mandated a "no meat" day. Too much gas emissions. Following IDIOT AOC. Demon-rats. This was 3-4-2019. A whole series of UNTRUTH ABOUT Donald Trump. CHARLOTTESVILLE ISSUE..WAS CREATED BY SOROS...BOTH SIDES!
JASON KESSLER, did that for Soros, Just like Jason created O.W.S for SOROS. I know a bit off topic, but one thing leads to another.
It all ties in, bottom line. Not everything president TRUMP is doing will please everyone! Suck up time.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rJB6OmKMvw#)
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Walk away movement. Now, DEMON-RATS...are putting out more negative items about TRUMP. You will have no America if you keep bashing president TRUMP. He is our last chance. You have been warned. Blame yourself's when we become like Venezuela.
New York De-Blasio, now mandated a "no meat" day. Too much gas emissions. Following IDIOT AOC. Demon-rats. This was 3-4-2019. A whole series of UNTRUTH ABOUT Donald Trump. CHARLOTTESVILLE ISSUE..WAS CREATED BY SOROS...BOTH SIDES!
JASON KESSLER, did that for Soros, Just like Jason created O.W.S for SOROS. I know a bit off topic, but one thing leads to another.
It all ties in, bottom line. Not everything president TRUMP is doing will please everyone! Suck up time.
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rJB6OmKMvw#)
You are discussing just about anything and everything but what the dumping of another 5% ethanol in fuel will do to the vehicles in use, in America, today.
50 miles out of 1954 is a whopping 2 1/2% of the border. That wall you are jibber-jabbering about with the same old video people have been jibber-jabbering about for a year, is mainly replacement wall, and not even 20 miles of new wall.
Hillary is contemplating running for POTUS again, not trusty in her cell block.
The ACA may not be as onerous as it was, but it is still alive and well, while I am buying health insurance for others and can't afford it myself.
I want you to consider one other something before you go waving any hero in my face and even thinking about calling ME unAmerican.
WE are our last chance. AMERICANS. Regardless of who is in office, regardless of what laws they make in foggy bottom, regardless of who or what is sent to push those laws down our throat. Regardless what the chattering class says, regardless of the lies the universities are stuffing empty heads with nowadays. We are it. IF you don't think that the people (Soros included) who want to enslave us ALL aren't having fun at seeing every backbiting AT take another swing at an NT, blacks versus whites versus browns, versus whoever came here last month from wherever, legally or not, you are missing the point.
Either WE, AMERICANS, get our collective shit together and realize that we'd best look out for ALL our Rights instead of keep fabricating new injuries to be insulted over, or WE are going to lose this country.
The people who have billions of dollars don't give a rabid rat's ass in the long run because they have enough money it WON'T AFFECT THEM. I'm not in that economic weight class. If my grandchildren are not going to be slaves, it's on me (and them) to prevent it, because the people we sent to Washington to stop that AREN'T DOING THEIR JOB.
But this thread is about requiring American fuel to contain a quantity of alcohol so great that E10 won't blend it all, and the E15 they're talking about is NOT manufacturer approved for use in 155,000,000 of the 235,000,000 vehicles on the road today. Two out of three vehicles out there, that level of ethanol in the fuel would void the warranty.
I reckon that just isn't going to please everyone, but eff up two out of three vehicles? How bad does it have to get?
(And that does not mention every small engine (air cooled, especially) used in everything from outboard motors to chainsaws, to motorcycles, to generators, to lawn care equipment and beyond).
Now the EPA can approve whatever it wants, but that isn't going to help my ass when I'm stuck on the side of a remote road with a failed fuel pump in a blizzard. (Yes, I have been there). It isn't going to repair the engines in the vintage vehicles I own, It won't rebuild my motorcycle engines, but it amounts to shooting my horses and declaring that okay, by government decree. It won't get my father to shore from a mile out when he's fishing, when the outboard craps out again because of sh*t fuel--a situation as life threatening as me being stuck in the boonies in a blizzard.
All to fulfill his promise to the Iowa corn lobby and 'Big Ag' (Monsanto, ADM, Dekalb, etc). If North Dakota had had a Presidential Primary (The absence of which was the last straw between me and the GOP) I would have happily voted for the guy who said "Let the market decide." on this one issue alone.
But between the bump stock ruling redefining a semi automatic rifle with a bump stock as a machine gun (technically wrong, and overturning an Obama era ruling which said the bump stock was okay and NOT a machine gun), and now crap fuel with vehicle damaging levels of ethanol, he's come after the gun and the pickup, and I have to ask what's next?
The dog?
We knew he was a city boy, but he is standing squarely on some rural toes, more than the corn lobby will take the hurt out of. Now look at the map and tell me who voted for him.
In the meantime, the border is still being overrun, Hillary is not under indictment or even being credibly investigated, and the sales of veterinary antibiotics are up as people do their own doctoring on the cheap because they can't afford not to.
We will have no AMERICA if we trust someone else to take care of business for us without even looking at what they are and are not doing.
That complacency is how the Republicans skated through years without lifting a finger or doing the wrong thing, excused because, well, they at least were not as bad as the Democrats. That's a pretty limp pole to hang your standard on.
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We will have no AMERICA if we trust someone else to take care of business for us without even looking at what they are and are not doing.
That complacency is how the Republicans skated through years without lifting a finger or doing the wrong thing, excused because, well, they at least were not as bad as the Democrats. That's a pretty limp pole to hang your standard on.
BUMP THAT. Great post Joe. :beer:
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Bad Trump. Ethanol is a subsidy to farmers that bleep up small engines.
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Correctamundo. Not only can it not compete with gasoline, it can't compete with sugar-based ethanol either. If only there was a politician - some Senator from Texas perhaps - who would stand on principle and oppose corn-ethanol subsidies.
You do know that ethanol from corn is "sugar-based ethanol". There are other crops with more yield for producing sugar-based ethanol, such as sugar beets, sugarcane, cassava, and sweet sorghum.
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You do know that ethanol from corn is "sugar-based ethanol". There are other crops with more yield for producing sugar-based ethanol, such as sugar beets, sugarcane, cassava, and sweet sorghum.
And many sources that are not food! Switchgrass being but one. But NONE of them can remotely compete with gasoline or diesel as motor fuels in a marketplace free of government intervention. Not even close.
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You do know that ethanol from corn is "sugar-based ethanol". There are other crops with more yield for producing sugar-based ethanol, such as sugar beets, sugarcane, cassava, and sweet sorghum.
@Elderberry
By 'sugar', I mean 'sucrose' - not simple carbohydrates in general. Corn is not used to create refined sugar (C12H22O11). In a free market, sugarcane will always beat out corn as the most cost-efficient way to produce ethanol. Which is why Brazil leads the world in ethanol exports.
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But NONE of them can remotely compete with gasoline or diesel as motor fuels in a marketplace free of government intervention. Not even close.
@Bigun
When it comes to picking winners and losers, our government has an uncanny propensity for choosing the latter. Ethanol is inferior in every way - price, quality, chemical properties, transport, etc. And even with those insisting on ethanol, we would be better off buying directly from Brazil than producing our own.
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@Bigun
When it comes to picking winners and losers, our government has an uncanny propensity for choosing the latter. Ethanol is inferior in every way - price, quality, chemical properties, transport, etc. And even with those insisting on ethanol, we would be better off buying directly from Brazil than producing our own.
We do. We imported 77 million gallons of ethanol from Brazil, but are a net exporter of the stuff.
http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/15021/us-exported-a-record-1-37-billion-gallons-of-ethanol-in-2017 (http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/15021/us-exported-a-record-1-37-billion-gallons-of-ethanol-in-2017)
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And many sources that are not food! Switchgrass being but one. But NONE of them can remotely compete with gasoline or diesel as motor fuels in a marketplace free of government intervention. Not even close.
Switchgrass does not produce sugar. It was billed to use for ethanol for a process that takes much more energy to work from cellulose.
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Switchgrass does not produce sugar. It was billed to use for ethanol for a process that takes much more energy to work from cellulose.
I know a number of years ago ,spent sugar cane stalks were being evaluated for bio-fuel. Haven't heard much since, so it guess it didn't pan out.
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Switchgrass does not produce sugar. It was billed to use for ethanol for a process that takes much more energy to work from cellulose.
And that is the problem with using ANY of this stuff to produce fuels! It takes more energy to produce than the energy you get back!
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There is no way corn based ethanol is a viable motor fuel without government subsidies and mandates. Period!
Not the way the market functions now, you are correct. Ethanol is struggling out here. The whole industry structure is a dang dinosaur.
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@Elderberry
By 'sugar', I mean 'sucrose' - not simple carbohydrates in general. Corn is not used to create refined sugar (C12H22O11). In a free market, sugarcane will always beat out corn as the most cost-efficient way to produce ethanol. Which is why Brazil leads the world in ethanol exports.
@Hoodat
You'll just have to excuse me. My Organic Chemistry Major does that to me. Words have meanings. I get too anal that way. So I see that corn is used to create "refined sugar"(glucose). (C6H12O6)
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@Hoodat
You'll just have to excuse me. My Organic Chemistry Major does that to me. Words have meanings. I get too anal that way.
@Elderberry
No problem from this end. I have learned to appreciate 'anal'. Also have a strong love for chemistry, although 'organic' is a completely different animal. I still have nightmares of the 'wheel of death' which is something a professor came up with to show 15 different things that could be done with cyclopentene.
(http://www.pherobase.com/pherobase/gif/1-cyclopentene.GIF)
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@Elderberry
I have learned to appreciate 'anal'.
Frank Cannon, a forum turns it's lonely eyes to you.
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Frank Cannon, a forum turns it's lonely eyes to you.
It may require some tasteful nude selfies to get him back, Roos.
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It may require some tasteful nude selfies to get him back, Roos.
I don't think that's Roos....
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I don't think that's Roos....
Gee, you're right. I went by the avatar and didn't even look at the name.