Police are investigating reports of one or more active shooters in the area.
One Las Vegas hospital reported treating at least 20 victims with gunshot wounds. >snip< There were reports of active shooters at other hotels on the Strip, but those were not confirmed by authorities and it was not immediately clear if the reports were a result of the mass chaos in the area.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 02, 2017, 06:43:38 am
Officials at the University Medical Center in Las Vegas told ABC News that it had at least 20 victims with gunshot wounds right now, with the expected to grow. The hospital did not provide information on the victims' conditions.
What sounds like some kind of machine gun can be heard over the noise of the music which quickly cuts out.
It is believed that the gunman may have opened fire from the Mandalay Bay hotel which overlooks the festival site.
Armed officers have been seen going into the hotel and hiding behind their cars pointing their firearms at the building.
>snip< The nearest hospital is said to have filled with casualties very quickly and victims are now being diverted to other hospitals in the area.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 06:54:27 am
Las Vegas Shooting: At Least Two Killed, 24 Wounded in Shooting at Mandalay Bay Casino https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.815241 (https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.815241)
Quote
At least two people were killed and 24 wounded with suspected gunshot wounds after a shooting late Sunday at a music festival on the Las Vegas Strip, a hospital spokesperson said.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 06:56:39 am
At Least 24 Injured in Las Vegas Shooting – Reports
Quote
According to the Hollywood Reporter portal citing officials, shots were heard at other locations, indicating that the shooter is either on the run or that there were multiple gunmen.
I don't know if this is true or not but there are reports of active shooters in other areas of the country like NY? :shrug:
I am listening to a radio program that is giving updates.
This sounds bad. Hundreds shots from automatic weapons...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 07:25:27 am
http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-boulevard-active-shooter-shooting-victims-attack/ (http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-boulevard-active-shooter-shooting-victims-attack/) Las Vegas Boulevard Shooting: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
Quote
According to police, there are multiple shooting scenes on the Las Vegas Boulevard in the area of the Mandalay Bay casino. Police were investigating at least three locations, according to scanner reports. Multiple calls were being made reporting shots fired at several other locations in the hour after the initial calls, but people there, including police officers, were not hearing the shots. Officers believe the calls were possibly being made as a diversion.
Police were also investigating an SUV with a possible suspicious device inside on Las Vegas Boulevard.
Excerpt, more at link: http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-boulevard-active-shooter-shooting-victims-attack/ (http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/mandalay-bay-las-vegas-boulevard-active-shooter-shooting-victims-attack/)
According to comments on the page,
Quote
2 shooters one on 29th one on 32nd. Swat teams in there
Not sure how accurate that is.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 02, 2017, 07:26:24 am
The police also descended on the Ali Baba Restaurant, about a 10-minute drive from the Mandalay Bay, and they were also investigating reports of a shooting at the New York-New York Hotel and Casino.
>snip< One officer reported that civilians were “trying to take patrol cars,” but it was unclear why.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 07:29:28 am
Police said one suspect was "down", but said the situation remained "active". It is not known if any other attackers are at large. Several unconfirmed reports claimed that "two or three" gunmen were shooting from the 32nd floor of the hotel.
Twitter message at Dallas News site confirms one suspect down. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2017/10/02/shooting-shuts-las-vegas-strip (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2017/10/02/shooting-shuts-las-vegas-strip)
Quote
LVMPD ✔ @LVMPD
Confirming that one suspect is down. This is an active investigation. Again, please do not head down to the Strip at this time. 1:58 AM - Oct 2, 2017
291 291 Replies 17,240 17,240 Retweets 17,550
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 07:37:31 am
Fox is reporting that police believe there was only one gunman and that he's down.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 08:29:00 am
Fox interview of a first responder visiting Las Vegas says at least 20 are dead that he personally witnessed in the area he was in.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 08:35:16 am
Police interview says shooter was a local residence and was killed on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel. They are looking for a woman, Marilou Danley, who is associated with the shooter.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 08:36:16 am
Las Vegas police are "pretty confident" there is no longer a threat following the deaths of more than 20 people at a mass shooting on the city's Strip.
Sheriff Joe Lombardo also said more than 100 people had been injured during the shooting at a country music festival.
He said people were still in hiding and urged them to remain in place until the all-clear was given by the police.
Sheriff Lombardo said a local resident had been identified as the gunman but declined to reveal his identity. However, he said police were seeking the man's companion who he named as Mari Lou Danley.
Quote
ISIS released video calling for attacks on Las Vegas Strip
An ISIS propaganda video, which emerged in May, calling for knife and truck attacks on the Las Vegas Strip was deemed a credible threat by Las Vegas police.
The video featuring the city's famed Strip, and other U.S. cities, was posted on Telegram, an instant messaging service, with footage dating from 2015.
Metropolitan Police Department captain Christopher Darcy, who heads the Southern Nevada Counter-Terrorism Centre, told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that the threat should be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 08:47:10 am
The police chief interviewed minutes ago said multiple shooters/locations/explosions were false reports.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: rangerrebew on October 02, 2017, 08:53:44 am
Las Vegas shooting: 20 dead, scores injured in mass shooting at Route 91 Harvest Festival
Updated 9 minutes ago
Video: Multiple people shot at Las Vegas music festival (ABC News)
At least 20 people have been killed and more than 100 others injured in a shooting rampage at an outdoor music festival on Las Vegas' famous entertainment strip.
Police locked down parts of the entertainment strip, with reports a high-powered weapon was fired at the Route 91 Harvest Festival, near the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino.
Las Vegas police earlier tweeted that "one suspect is down" and later confirmed they did not believe there were any other shooters.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 09:02:52 am
Latest from http://www.smh.com.au/world/las-vegas-shooting-reports-of-active-shooter-at-mandalay-bay-casino-20171002-gysvbi.html (http://www.smh.com.au/world/las-vegas-shooting-reports-of-active-shooter-at-mandalay-bay-casino-20171002-gysvbi.html)
Quote
Sheriff Lombardo said the police were also seeking two vehicles that were registered to the suspect.
He said he could not give an accurate tally of victims but "we have well in excess of 100-plus injured and excess of 20-plus who have died at this point".
"We are comfortable the primary aggressor in this event has expired or passed away and is no longer a threat," he added.
Sheriff Lombardo said reports of multiple shooters and explosive devices were not accurate: "The only explosive contained in this event was from our SWAT team breaching the room."
"We are pretty confident that there is no longer a threat other than we are attempting to locate the person of interest."
Early reports are often flawed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 09:22:30 am
A nightmare scenario. They are looking for a woman and two vehicles connected to the shooter.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 09:24:51 am
Some are claiming this was the shooter (and the woman is his wife):
https://everipedia.org/wiki/geary-danley/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 09:29:21 am
Some are claiming this was shooter (and the woman is his wife):
https://everipedia.org/wiki/geary-danley/
That's the name the sheriff just announced for her. He didn't give the guys name. Some reports they've found her with a gunshot to the head.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 09:30:31 am
The video fox is playing has audio of the shots. Its automatic fire. Not fast semiauto, automatic.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: raml on October 02, 2017, 09:31:28 am
She the woman in the picture is not the person they described as the person they are looking for. She may have the same name but not the same description.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 09:32:07 am
A report here: https://www.facebook.com/everipedianews/?hc_ref=ARRd47_lmYmi5klIj1EQdH9NWYsHbbhSQ5a9dN7s2IffjyKAL_8AASqMloBOSmOvOb4&fref=nf
Says she was taken into custody.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 09:33:57 am
She the woman in the picture is not the person they described as the person they are looking for. She may have the same name but not the same description.
From the pictures I saw on TV and at the link, she does fit the description pretty closely.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: raml on October 02, 2017, 09:36:29 am
The picture on fox news Las vegas shows are dark haired Asian woman the woman in that picture the picture you have is not Asian
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 09:38:11 am
From the pictures I saw on TV and at the link, she does fit the description pretty closely.
Picture fox just put up is not the woman at the link above. The picture fox had up was of a woman about 50yrs old. Looked Indonesian or maybe Philippine
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 09:39:40 am
A report here: https://www.facebook.com/everipedianews/?hc_ref=ARRd47_lmYmi5klIj1EQdH9NWYsHbbhSQ5a9dN7s2IffjyKAL_8AASqMloBOSmOvOb4&fref=nf
Says she was taken into custody.
From that link:
Quote
Geary Danley
This is not the man identified as the shooter, but apparently is/was married to Marilou Danley, a person of interest. Unless further information is released to that effect, at present this man is not suspected of a crime or known to have been involved in any way. Profiles Geary Danley Facebook
Geary Danley was a man from Fayetteville, Arkansas.[8] He is married to Marilou Danley.[5] Political Views
Geary is a fan of the The Rachel Maddow Show and liked several pages on Facebook including Thank You Obama, Anti-Trump Army, Progressive Day, Organizing for Action, Not My President, Proud to Be A Democrat, Fight Trump, Boycott All Things Trump, and Impeach Trump.[6] Geary is a Democrat and is registered to vote in Washoe County, Nevada.[11] Las Vegas Shooting
Geary's wife Marilou was named a suspect in the Mandalay Bay Resort Shooting October 2017.
More on that page. Odd the one video I could get to play showed some woman at the end starting on some diatribe about Trump before she got cut off.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 09:55:45 am
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 10:36:12 am
UPDATE: Law enforcement sources report shooter is Stephen Paddock of Mesquite Nevada. The 64-year-old suspect, now deceased, had a previous criminal record and lived in San Francisco, Melbourne FL and Reno NV as well as Mesquite TX previously. Paddock likely shares a residence with Danley, sources said. http://truepundit.com/breaking-active-shooter-at-mandalay-bay-in-las-vegas-one-officer-down-others-shot/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 10:36:36 am
Suspect is Stephen Paddock.
At least 50 dead, over 200 wounded...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:37:08 am
50 dead over 200 hurt. They think they've found her. Sheriff confirmed Steven paddock
The woman is an escort so she might have been there for that.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 10:41:33 am
A registered sex offender, @johngaltreport tweeted. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLH6bhQUMAA064z.jpg)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:45:12 am
A registered sex offender, @johngaltreport tweeted. (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLH6bhQUMAA064z.jpg)
looks pretty young for mid 60s Not sure that is the right guy... Found this here:https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/914793867219783680 (https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/914793867219783680)
I read that he used a fully automatic weapon* - any confirmation of that?
*Here, among other sources (https://bluelivesmatter.blue/mandalay-bay-terrorist-attack-video/). This site has videos in which you can hear what sounds like automatic firing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=20&v=5HnPGTK-aW8
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 10:47:49 am
I read that he used a fully automatic weapon* - any confirmation of that?
*Here, among other sources (https://bluelivesmatter.blue/mandalay-bay-terrorist-attack-video/).
Sure sounded like it in the video.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:53:26 am
Scroll down a way to the video showing the singer on stage. It captures the shooting audio. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4527652/las-vegas-shooting-mandalay-bay-music-festival-latest-toll/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 10:56:35 am
... making the people below, outdoors at the concert, sitting ducks.
Exactly.
People were scattering to anywhere they could find shelter. One woman in a car took in some of the fleeing people. There are reports of some people running onto the runways of McCarran Airport.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 11:21:22 am
For those of you speculating on the weaponry used by the shooter -- ABC says they found multiple weapons in the perp's room. So it could be he used more than one type of weapon.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 02, 2017, 11:32:05 am
Horrific news to wake up to.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 11:40:36 am
People were scattering to anywhere they could find shelter. One woman in a car took in some of the fleeing people. There are reports of some people running onto the runways of McCarran Airport.
I believe the airport is a couple miles away from the site. Also there would be fences blocking them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 11:44:01 am
I believe the airport is a couple miles away from the site. Also there would be fences blocking them.
Yeah, I thought the airport wasn't that close to Mandalay Bay, but a video was shown on ABC purportedly of people running onto the runways. I believe the airport was shut down at least partially.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: CSM on October 02, 2017, 11:47:17 am
Now ABC is saying the death toll is 104. But I guess the numbers will be revised several times for quite some time.
I don't think they know with any amount of certainty. They are still searching the site.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 11:52:28 am
Oh, Geez. Now some chippy on CBS wants to know how easy it is to obtain the firearms used in this shooting in Las Vegas. Here comes the ban guns movement again. ****slapping
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 11:54:06 am
looks pretty young for mid 60s Not sure that is the right guy... Found this here:https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/914793867219783680 (https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/914793867219783680)
ABC is interviewing an eyewitness. She mentions there were a number of children at the show. Country concerts like this are family events.
Prayers up for everyone, especially the kids.
Witnesses on fox said there kids there. They knew of no kids hurt. No trample injuries seen. Firefighters said all gunshots. I'm sure there are some non gunshot injuries though.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 12:43:23 pm
Now the injured number is 400+.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 02, 2017, 12:45:46 pm
Oh, Geez. Now some chippy on CBS wants to know how easy it is to obtain the firearms used in this shooting in Las Vegas. Here comes the ban guns movement again. ****slapping
Probably not as easy as it is to get a truck!?
NO MATTER WHAT WEAPON WAS USED, IT STILL WASN'T AS DEADLY AS A TRUCK. 86 killed, 500 wounded in Nice, France.
Whether it is a truck or a gun, it doesn't matter because they are just tools. :nono:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 12:48:10 pm
Witnesses on fox said there kids there. They knew of no kids hurt. No trample injuries seen. Firefighters said all gunshots. I'm sure there are some non gunshot injuries though.
No doubt. One eyewitness was hurt trying to go over a concrete barrier. Said she was treated and released. But others I'm sure were more seriously injured just from the panic.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 12:48:51 pm
Oh, Geez. Now some chippy on CBS wants to know how easy it is to obtain the firearms used in this shooting in Las Vegas. Here comes the ban guns movement again.
From what's been reported, the man had multiple firearms in the room. Yes, you can legally purchase Class III weapons, but the process is long and the weapons are expensive. Modified weapons often fail, due to the inferior parts, lack of expertise on the installer, or tolerances of the original equipment. Given the amount of weapons at the scene, I wouldn't be surprised if some had been altered with a 'bump fire' device. They're easily obtained, legal, and relatively inexpensive, compared to a standard full auto.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 12:50:00 pm
Deputy sheriff in LV now saying Paddock died from self-inflicted gunshot. No local criminal record.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 12:53:58 pm
8 weapons...2 different shooting "platforms"...camera's recording the entire thing. Shooter killed himself as the cops breached the room.
LVMPD were able to pinpoint the room because all of the smoke from the rounds fired set off the smoke alarms.
LV Sherriff at the mic now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 12:57:27 pm
NO MATTER WHAT WEAPON WAS USED, IT STILL WASN'T AS DEADLY AS A TRUCK. 86 killed, 500 wounded in Nice, France.
Whether it is a truck or a gun, it doesn't matter because they are just tools. :nono:
Agreed. And how many people have been killed with knives or other sharp instruments? In countries where firearms are banned, killers will find some other way to inflict mass casualties.
I just found it both amusing and appalling that the dead aren't even cold yet and already, the media is pushing for gun bans.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 01:03:22 pm
FNC now saying the shooter had 10 weapons.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 01:04:16 pm
As of now, the sheriff says they don't believe the woman was involved. Apparently, she was (is?) out of the country.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 01:10:28 pm
As of now, the sheriff says they don't believe the woman was involved. Apparently, she was (is?) out of the country.
Yeah she was out of the country...he was using some of her ID he had...seems he'd been in that room since the end of last month.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 01:16:30 pm
Listening to the video...close to 30 seconds of sustained fire at one point...deeper sound than 5.56 (more of a "thud thud" than a "crack crack")...so IMHO he either illegally modified semi-auto (single shot) rifles or illegally purchased fully auto weapons and some how got them into the country.
Not even the bionic hand of the Six Million Dollar Man could fire a semi-auto rifle that fast.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 02, 2017, 01:18:44 pm
It's rather convenient that the wife is out of the country. Two theories
1) She dumped him and he snapped 2) She convinced him to do it
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 01:27:14 pm
Listening to the video...close to 30 seconds of sustained fire at one point...deeper sound than 5.56 (more of a "thud thud" than a "crack crack")...so IMHO he either illegally modified semi-auto (single shot) rifles or illegally purchased fully auto weapons and some how got them into the country.
Another possibility I mentioned previously......
http://www.slidefire.com
http://www.bumpfiresystems.com
These are legal devices that can allow a standard high capacity semi-auto to cycle in a full auto fashion.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 01:29:08 pm
Agreed. And how many people have been killed with knives or other sharp instruments? In countries where firearms are banned, killers will find some other way to inflict mass casualties.
I just found it both amusing and appalling that the dead aren't even cold yet and already, the media is pushing for gun bans.
The anti-white racism is already flowing in full force on Twitter, too.
Needless to say, I'm beyond disgusted by the whole scenario.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Polly Ticks on October 02, 2017, 01:31:56 pm
Horrible news. Prayers up for the victims' families.
Any news on the possible motive yet?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 02, 2017, 01:33:59 pm
Listening to the video...close to 30 seconds of sustained fire at one point...deeper sound than 5.56 (more of a "thud thud" than a "crack crack")...so IMHO he either illegally modified semi-auto (single shot) rifles or illegally purchased fully auto weapons and some how got them into the country.
Not even the bionic hand of the Six Million Dollar Man could fire a semi-auto rifle that fast.
Several tall, broad buildings there. There's probably a lot of echo. Can make it sound like rapid fire.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 02, 2017, 01:35:52 pm
Anybody know if the windows can be opened at Mandalay Bay? Guess if not, he could have just broken one out for his spree.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 01:36:01 pm
Anybody know if the windows can be opened at Mandalay Bay? Guess if not, he could have just broken one out for his spree.
I doubt windows can be opened in most hotels nowadays. It's an insurance thing. In this sue-happy society, hotels don't want to be liable if someone falls out or jumps.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Victoria33 on October 02, 2017, 01:39:31 pm
I went to bed around midnight, central time and wake up to this - couldn't believe the numbers killed and wounded. The numbers I heard a short time ago from the news briefing was over 50 killed and over 400 wounded. This was not a spur of the moment shooting. That killer had been in the hotel for a few days, putting this all together. Now hearing he had ten guns in the room.
Get ready for a liberal call to take everyone's guns from them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 02, 2017, 01:44:12 pm
I doubt windows can be opened in most hotels nowadays. It's an insurance thing. In this sue-happy society, hotels don't want to be liable if someone falls out or jumps.
I have been to plenty of hotels that have balconies, and expect one can get some on the Strip too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 01:44:20 pm
I went to bed around midnight, central time and wake up to this - couldn't believe the numbers killed and wounded. The numbers I heard a short time ago from the news briefing was over 50 killed and over 400 wounded. This was not a spur of the moment shooting. That killer had been in the hotel for a few days, putting this all together. Now hearing he had ten guns in the room.
Get ready for a liberal call to take everyone's guns from them.
We don't have a motive or complete background on the guy, yet, but that venue and crowd was chosen for a reason. Another James Hodgkinson type is not out of the question.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 01:46:56 pm
I have been to plenty of hotels that have balconies, and expect one can get some on the Strip too.
Video of the hotel does not show any balconies. Come to think of it, none of the hotels I stayed in on the Strip had balconies.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 01:50:08 pm
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/video-shows-the-moment-shooter-opened-fire-on-las-vegas-concert/article/2636239 Video shows the moment shooter opened fire on Las Vegas concert
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Polly Ticks on October 02, 2017, 01:50:19 pm
We don't have a motive or complete background on the guy, yet, but that venue and crowd was chosen for a reason. Another James Hodgkinson type is not out of the question.
That's a good point. Country music is typically associated with conservative viewpoints.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 01:54:50 pm
Any group gathering is not safe, including in your church at a service, or in a restaurant. Everyone should do a mental exercise over and over as to what he/she will immediately do if this happens. Think it out now so you don't panic if it happens. That is part of emergency planning to save your life.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 02:02:16 pm
What to make of this?
Quote
Vegas Concert Goer Says Woman Warned Them They Would Be Killed Right Before Shooting By Ryan Saavedra October 2, 2017
A concert goer at the Jason Aldean concert in Las Vegas said that a woman pushed her way into the concert venue and told everyone in the immediate vicinity that they were going to “die tonight.”
A young woman told a local NBC affiliate that another young woman told a group of people in the concert they were going to “die tonight” before supposedly being escorted from the conference roughly 45 minutes before the shooting happened. ...
Video of the hotel does not show any balconies. Come to think of it, none of the hotels I stayed in on the Strip had balconies.
The Mandalay doesn't have them but some hotels do. The Palms in Las Vegas has a few amazing party suites with them. The typical room that I can afford doesn't have them, its the pricey ones.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 02:04:38 pm
Quote
Monday, October 2, 2017 Breaking News: Heads I Win, Tails You Lose
Legend has it that whenever Dorothy Parker’s phone or doorbell rang she would utter “what fresh hell can this be?” That’s how I feel when I turn on the news.
So indeed, what fresh hell is this? Nobody knows nuthin’ yet. Except that the perpetrator was a white guy - Were he not, we still wouldn’t know his name.
All we know for sure is that the left will politicize the Las Vegas massacre for their purposes. Either the shooter was a Trump supporter and therefore all Trump supporters are responsible. Or, if he was not, he was driven to madness by Trump. Heads they win, tails you lose. ...
More at Michelle Obama's Mirror (http://www.michellesmirror.com/2017/10/breaking-news-heads-i-win-tails-you-lose.html#.WdJHD9FrxtR)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 02:04:42 pm
The Mandalay doesn't have them but some hotels do. The Palms in Las Vegas has a few amazing party suites with them. The typical room that I can afford doesn't have them, its the pricey ones.
Mandalay Bay has a balcony outside its Foundation Room at the top level. I've been to a few events at that Foundation Room. Some of the other hotels may have similar facilities.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:07:11 pm
I doubt windows can be opened in most hotels nowadays. It's an insurance thing. In this sue-happy society, hotels don't want to be liable if someone falls out or jumps.
I've stayed at Mnadalay Bay and at least for the room I was in and it looked like all the regular rooms, none opened or even had a balcony. I am not sure about the very top penthouses.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:10:50 pm
Anybody know if the windows can be opened at Mandalay Bay? Guess if not, he could have just broken one out for his spree.
If the broken window with the curtain fluttering in it is any indication...it looks like he broke it out...there was no balcony. It was a floor to ceiling window that has just a few jagged edges left.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 02:13:16 pm
ABC is saying the perp broke the window to do his shooting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:14:18 pm
Several tall, broad buildings there. There's probably a lot of echo. Can make it sound like rapid fire.
You'd have more of an echo effect if they were spaced closer together...IIRC Mandalay Bay is isn't jammed up against other buildings on the strip...less chance of echo confusion. And even with echo...it wouldn't give the impression of automatic fire versus semi auto fire...it would only give confusion as to the direction the fire was coming from.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 02:14:36 pm
Vegas Shooter's Brother: 'He Snapped' "He has no political affiliation, no religious affiliation, as far as we know. This wasn't a terror attack."
ByJames Barrett October 2, 2017
The brother of the man who opened fire on a country music concert in Las Vegas on Sunday night told reporters that his brother was a regular guy who appears to have just "snapped."
On Sunday night, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock of Mesquite, Nevada, opened fire from his hotel room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay resort on a crowd at a Jason Aldeen performance at the Route 41 Harvest festival. By the end of Paddock's horrific act, over 50 people were dead and over 400 injured. The nightmare — which is the most deadly mass shooting in the history of the country — ended when Paddock committed suicide via firearm in the hotel room, where he had been staying since Thursday. Authorities found a cache of ten rifles in the room. ... http://www.dailywire.com/news/21793/vegas-shooters-brother-he-snapped-james-barrett?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:14:54 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLIvOmsXcAE7pxb.jpg)
gunman
Who is Stephen Paddock? Las Vegas shooter, 64, was licensed pilot and hunting enthusiast with no criminal record who owned a $400,000 home in nearby retirement community
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 02:17:44 pm
Heartbreaking story from one witness. His buddy was shot and this witness was trying to get his friend somewhere safe and where he could get help. The friend died in his arms.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 02:18:40 pm
That'd be the simplest way to modify a standard weapon. The dispersion at distance would be wide, due to lack of two hand control. Initial reports mentioned two shooting stations. If he had bipod support for it, that would make it more manageable and concentrated on the crowd.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:19:04 pm
I went to bed around midnight, central time and wake up to this - couldn't believe the numbers killed and wounded. The numbers I heard a short time ago from the news briefing was over 50 killed and over 400 wounded. This was not a spur of the moment shooting. That killer had been in the hotel for a few days, putting this all together. Now hearing he had ten guns in the room.
Yes that's what I'm hearing too. Woke up to find out that every single news app I have had multiple notifications flooding my screen.
Quote
Get ready for a liberal call to take everyone's guns from them.
I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:21:28 pm
many photos and videos here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4940730/Thousands-music-fans-flee-Las-Vegas-massacre.html
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 02:22:19 pm
Several tall, broad buildings there. There's probably a lot of echo. Can make it sound like rapid fire.
@Cyber Liberty The video I'm seeing/hearing does not sound like echo's. I know what an echo sounds like and I've heard automatic fire as well. To me this sounds like an AK-47 or similar weapon. He probably had 30rd magazines but it sounds like he shoots longer than those would allow. The 40 Rd magazines tend to jam too much.
There are several places in Las Vegas where you can shoot full auto weapons, he might have stolen them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 02:22:57 pm
@Cyber Liberty The video I'm seeing/hearing does not sound like echo's. I know what an echo sounds like and I've heard automatic fire as well. To me this sounds like an AK-47 or similar weapon.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:34:48 pm
So now Fox is reporting there is a story starting to spread that Daesh is claiming responsibility and that this guy was a convert.
Now...I do know that in the past Daseh/Taliban like to make claims that are verifiably false. Like blowing up U.S. tanks in Afghanistan when we didn't have any in country...killing an Ambassador and then having a pic of said person standing with media in a hiddle laughing at the text of his death they all received on his phone.
That being said....
When they showed a pic of the shooter's girlfriend/partner...I thought she looked Philipino. Abu Sayyaf operates in the Philippines. If he's a convert as Daesh is claiming. This changes things greatly.
It could also help clear up how this guy got automatic weapons into the county.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 02:34:58 pm
Uuugh, a suppressor effects ballistics so it would reduce effectiveness for something that far. Plus, with a higher powered rifle, it doesn't reduce the sound very much.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 02:36:11 pm
He could have gone after a country music crowd but I'd think more likely, he was just shooting at an open crowd; is it any wonder, it would take awhile to find him and if the music was loud, you might not be aware for awhile what was going on.
So now Fox is reporting there is a story starting to spread that Daesh is claiming responsibility and that this guy was a convert.
Now...I do know that in the past Daseh/Taliban like to make claims that are verifiably false. Like blowing up U.S. tanks in Afghanistan when we didn't have any in country...killing an Ambassador and then having a pic of said person standing with media in a hiddle laughing at the text of his death they all received on his phone.
That being said....
When they showed a pic of the shooter's girlfriend/partner...I thought she looked Pilipino. Abu Sayyaf operates in the Philippines. If he's a convert as Daesh is claiming. This changes things greatly.
It could also help clear up how this guy got automatic weapons into the county.
From what I just read on one of the stories, she was an Australian national. Of course, I don't trust too many things this early.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 02:38:33 pm
Tom Brokow brought in on Today Show to call for gun control. Just said something 'time for us to unite to do something about this....'
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 02, 2017, 02:38:41 pm
The Associated PressVerified account @AP 17m17 minutes ago
BREAKING: Without providing evidence, Islamic State claims Las Vegas attack, says shooter converted to Islam months ago.
In an insane way, that makes sense. Cause this guy was not exactly a "homeless" bum. He had a $370,000 home, which would indicate that he lived well above poverty level. Radical Islam is the only thing that would explain this incident.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:39:56 pm
It just kills me that our rights are just one nutjob from being taken away.
Not really. Most responsible gun owners know what's up with the left's attempt to disarm us. It will take a victory by the anti-gun crowd in another civil war for that to happen.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: corbe on October 02, 2017, 02:42:47 pm
Quote
CBS News ✔ @CBSNews
“Not an avid gun guy at all...where the hell did he get automatic weapons? He has no military background,” gunman’s brother says
9:22 AM - Oct 2, 2017
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:43:46 pm
Headlines
Warren calls for action on gun violence: 'Thoughts & prayers are NOT enough'
Hillary Clinton: Our grief isn't enough, we must stand up to the NRA
Dem rep says he won't participate in moment of silence for Las Vegas victims
Dem senator: 'How many lives must be lost before we act?'
Obama: We are praying for victims of 'another senseless tragedy'
Bill Clinton: Las Vegas shooting 'should be unimaginable in America'
Dem rep: I hope Congress does 'more than stand in silence' after Las Vegas shooting
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 02:46:51 pm
Warren calls for action on gun violence: 'Thoughts & prayers are NOT enough'
Hillary Clinton: Our grief isn't enough, we must stand up to the NRA
Dem rep says he won't participate in moment of silence for Las Vegas victims
Dem senator: 'How many lives must be lost before we act?'
Obama: We are praying for victims of 'another senseless tragedy'
Bill Clinton: Las Vegas shooting 'should be unimaginable in America'
Dem rep: I hope Congress does 'more than stand in silence' after Las Vegas shooting
Now.... to connect the dots between this latest incident and the radical left in America .... which includes all of the idiots that made the politically-motivated comments (never let a crisis go to waste) above. The dots are there. But since our intelligence agencies have been compromised by that same left, I doubt those dots will ever be connected and reported on.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 02, 2017, 02:47:49 pm
Hillary is a dumb a$$ and doesn't know squat about high powered rifles.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:48:51 pm
Democrats Immediately Call For Gun Control After Las Vegas Shooting http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/democrats-immediately-call-for-gun-control-after-las-vegas-shooting/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:51:13 pm
Las Vegas Shooter Found Dead With At Least 10 Rifles [VIDEO] http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooter-found-dead-with-at-least-ten-rifles-video/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:51:33 pm
President speaking now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 02:52:15 pm
It's not all THAT hard to get at automatic weapons in country. Jussayin.
Pretty much every range around Las Vegas has class 3 weapons you can rent for range time. Many shops have them for sale too, if you can afford the $25K plus each in addition to the transfer fees.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:54:48 pm
He's saying what needs to be said...and more importantly..in a way that it needs to be said.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: INVAR on October 02, 2017, 02:54:52 pm
How conveeeenient for this guy to be some white guy who 'just snapped' with no record, no political affiliations or religion?
Too well-planned, to well executed to be some nitwit that went nuts IMO.
The screams for gun control are starting to get shrill, and the tweetosphere/FB fora is ramping up the BLM charge that whites are a national security threat.
Since so many of our own now in this land profess a searing hatred for the country and the people in it, it is hard to know if it's Antifa, BLM, ISIS or all of the above.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 02:55:22 pm
How conveeeenient for this guy to be some white guy who 'just snapped' with no record, no political affiliations or religion?
Too well-planned, to well executed to be some nitwit that went nuts IMO.
The screams for gun control are starting to get shrill, and the tweetosphere/FB fora is ramping up the BLM charge that whites are a national security threat.
Since so many of our own now in this land profess a searing hatred for the country and the people in it, it is hard to know if it's Antifa, BLM, ISIS or all of the above.
Daesh is claiming he's a convert.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Just_Victor on October 02, 2017, 02:56:26 pm
I've not seen that Trump is a particular spiritual man, but let me just say,
Well spoken Mr President.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 02, 2017, 02:56:32 pm
He appears to have been an enemy combatant (ISIS). Armed with automatics weapons that are extremely difficult to legally own. Please tell me how more laws would have prevented this attack on US civilians?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 02:57:05 pm
In an insane way, that makes sense. Cause this guy was not exactly a "homeless" bum. He had a $370,000 home, which would indicate that he lived well above poverty level. Radical Islam is the only thing that would explain this incident.
Not necessarily. The guy could have just freaked out or maybe some grudge has been simmering in him for some time.
A lot of these incidents are done, not by the usual trained terrorist, but by someone with a mental illness. Rather than trying to ban guns, perhaps more can be done to find out why people suddenly decide to take out their frustrations and grievances on innocent people.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: BassWrangler on October 02, 2017, 02:57:16 pm
Not really. Most responsible gun owners know what's up with the left's attempt to disarm us. It will take a victory by the anti-gun crowd in another civil war for that to happen.
Is that what happened with all the other anti-gun legislation that is already on the books?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 02:57:49 pm
Is that what happened with all the other anti-gun legislation that is already on the books?
IMHO a lot of it was passed pre 9/11 and when a lot of people were still naïve about just how little that law enforcement does to protect you and me from your common garden variety street corner thug.
People are wiser now and understand that the only person capably of keeping them safe...is themselves. And that requires gun ownership.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 03:00:22 pm
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/isis-claims-responsibility-for-las-vegas-killings-calls-shooter-one-of-its-soldiers/article/2636251 ISIS claims responsibility for Las Vegas shooting, calls gunman one of its 'soldiers'
No idea if this is true..Isis maybe just taking advantage of this *opportunity*
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Concerned on October 02, 2017, 03:01:04 pm
I criticize Trump when I think he deserves criticizing and praise him when I think he deserves praise. His remarks this morning were spot on IMO: prayer and support for the victims and their family, support for law enforcement, calls for unity, flags at half-staff, and plans to travel to Las Vegas on Wednesday. Good job Mr. President.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 03:01:58 pm
I won't buy any rumors until about 2 or 3 hours by now; sure, ISIS can claim this. What else would they do with an incident like this.
Then, some will say, don't trust CNN, ABC, etc.; maybe but I don't think the whole media can be bamboozled.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 03:03:10 pm
How conveeeenient for this guy to be some white guy who 'just snapped' with no record, no political affiliations or religion?
Too well-planned, to well executed to be some nitwit that went nuts IMO.
The screams for gun control are starting to get shrill, and the tweetosphere/FB fora is ramping up the BLM charge that whites are a national security threat.
Since so many of our own now in this land profess a searing hatred for the country and the people in it, it is hard to know if it's Antifa, BLM, ISIS or all of the above.
Never mind that the weapon used here was a class three weapon which you do not buy at Wal-Mart!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 03:04:26 pm
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/isis-claims-responsibility-for-las-vegas-killings-calls-shooter-one-of-its-soldiers/article/2636251 ISIS claims responsibility for Las Vegas shooting, calls gunman one of its 'soldiers'
No idea if this is true..Isis maybe just taking advantage of this *opportunity*
All sorts of enemies will come out of the woodwork claiming responsibility. And it's no help that the usual conspiracy theory nut job sites will perpetrate a few fantasies of their own.
Waiting for North Korea to chime in, claiming the shooter was one of their agents. Sigh!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 02, 2017, 03:04:41 pm
Is that what happened with all the other anti-gun legislation that is already on the books?
Those laws were done incrementally by the left....with Democrats in control, mostly. What I'm saying is... if the left thinks they're going to use an incident like this to disarm Americans nationally, (like has happened in other nations ... like Australia)... they have another think coming. We will fight another civil war first....because most of us on the right know exactly what's going on here.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 03:05:06 pm
I criticize Trump when I think he deserves criticizing and praise him when I think he deserves praise. His remarks this morning were spot on IMO: prayer and support for the victims and their family, support for law enforcement, calls for unity, flags at half-staff, and plans to travel to Las Vegas on Wednesday. Good job Mr. President.
Yes indeed!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 03:05:47 pm
All sorts of enemies will come out of the woodwork claiming responsibility. And it's no help that the usual conspiracy theory nut job sites will perpetrate a few fantasies of their own.
Waiting for North Korea to chime in, claiming the shooter was one of their agents. Sigh!
His girlfriend/partner will answer a lot of the questions about whether he was a convert IMO.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: cato potatoe on October 02, 2017, 03:07:46 pm
He appears to have been an enemy combatant (ISIS). Armed with automatics weapons that are extremely difficult to legally own. Please tell me how more laws would have prevented this attack on US civilians?
The Left will find some way to make the rest of us suffer for what this evil man did.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: BassWrangler on October 02, 2017, 03:08:01 pm
IMHO a lot of it was passed pre 9/11 and when a lot of people were still naïve about just how little that law enforcement does to protect you and me from your common garden variety street corner thug.
People are wiser now and understand that the only person capably of keeping them safe...is themselves. And that requires gun ownership.
Yeah, no.
I live in WA, and one really annoying gun law passed here just a year or so ago. You guys are missing that each generation has less people who are raised with firearms as a normal part of their life. Eventually you get enough libs and enough people who don't care or who aren't informed, and these laws pass. The anti-gun lobby is extremely well organized and well funded. The NRA didn't do squat to help us here, despite numerous requests, and the anti-gunners saturated the airwaves with ads that we didn't counter. Be especially cautious of your state's constitution allows popular vote (ballot) initiatives or amendments, because that's often how they get these laws on the books.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 02, 2017, 03:10:46 pm
He appears to have been an enemy combatant (ISIS). Armed with automatics weapons that are extremely difficult to legally own. Please tell me how more laws would have prevented this attack on US civilians?
Isis? Where is any evidence that he's ISIS? Does mystery-ak allow fake news on this website?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 03:10:48 pm
Not necessarily. The guy could have just freaked out or maybe some grudge has been simmering in him for some time.
A lot of these incidents are done, not by the usual trained terrorist, but by someone with a mental illness. Rather than trying to ban guns, perhaps more can be done to find out why people suddenly decide to take out their frustrations and grievances on innocent people.
Very true. There are well armed nut cases out there who have nothing to do with Islam. We see them bragging on the internet all the time about what they own, hoping for a civil war, telling people they would shoot first... not all are just mouthing off.
More laws won't stop these nuts just like more and more drunk driving laws don't stop drunk drivers (the numbers keep going up and up).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 03:12:10 pm
I live in WA, and one really annoying gun law passed here just a year or so ago. You guys are missing that each generation has less people who are raised with firearms as a normal part of their life. Eventually you get enough libs and enough people who don't care or who aren't informed, and these laws pass. The anti-gun lobby is extremely well organized and well funded. The NRA didn't do squat to help us here, despite numerous requests, and the anti-gunners saturated the airwaves with ads that we didn't counter. Be especially cautious of your state's constitution allows popular vote (ballot) initiatives or amendments, because that's often how they get these laws on the books.
At this point there's no hope for the deep blue states like the one you live in.
No amount of statistical or anecdotal evidence that the more restrictive the gun laws the higher the crime rate will convince them that adding one more law to the 16,000 already in place in the country won't stop an event like what happened last night in Las Vegas.
As for myself...both of my sons and both of my daughters are really good shots. :)
That's the best we can hope for with the younger generations...teach the ones in our families as much as we can and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: BassWrangler on October 02, 2017, 03:12:52 pm
Those laws were done incrementally by the left....with Democrats in control, mostly. What I'm saying is... if the left thinks they're going to use an incident like this to disarm Americans nationally, (like has happened in other nations ... like Australia)... they have another think coming. We will fight another civil war first....because most of us on the right know exactly what's going on here.
Sure, I agree with that. I didn't say anything about an outright ban. They're not that dumb. They will continue to use the "frog in the pot" method and raise the water temperature gradually. It will be the death of a thousand cuts. All they have to do is make it harder for people to own and (legally) use firearms. This causes less people to be interested in them and over time make the population more susceptible to anti-gun propaganda and laws.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 03:13:04 pm
I won't buy any rumors until about 2 or 3 hours by now; sure, ISIS can claim this. What else would they do with an incident like this.
Then, some will say, don't trust CNN, ABC, etc.; maybe but I don't think the whole media can be bamboozled.
This tragedy only happened a few hours ago. Police, FBI and who knows how many other agencies have only begun their investigations. They are searching the perp's home and will be picking his whole life apart for some time. Heck, even the number of dead and injured can't even be agreed upon yet.
So really, it's not wise to believe every story you hear. I heard that at the time of the incident, rumors were spreading of more than one shooter, more than one shooting location, and that there were several bombs set to go off around the city.
All these stories are designed to create more fear and panic. Some very sick people get their jollies from stirring up sh!t. So let's just wait till there are more confirmed details.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 03:16:00 pm
At this point there's no hope for the deep blue states like the one you live in.
No amount of statistical or anecdotal evidence that the more restrictive the gun laws the higher the crime rate will convince them that adding one more law to the 16,000 already in place in the country won't stop an event like what happened last night in Las Vegas.
As for myself...both of my sons and both of my daughters are really good shots. :)
That's the best we can hope for with the younger generations...teach the ones in our families as much as we can and hope for the best.
Mine are too. Better than me, which is no small feat, but it is only because I am losing my eyesight in my dominant eye. I've also introduced two people at work, after careful vetting, to firearms, with multiple trips to the range, and with instruction on basic firearm safety.
But I agree with you about the blue states. My main point is that it will hit the red states too. It will just take longer.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jmyrlefuller on October 02, 2017, 03:18:25 pm
How conveeeenient for this guy to be some white guy who 'just snapped' with no record, no political affiliations or religion?
Almost the same as what happened with Adam Lanza, who destroyed his hard drives, stole his brother's ID and killed his mother to prevent any motive from being discovered.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 02, 2017, 03:18:38 pm
Sure, I agree with that. I didn't say anything about an outright ban. They're not that dumb. They will continue to use the "frog in the pot" method and raise the water temperature gradually. It will be the death of a thousand cuts. All they have to do is make it harder for people to own and (legally) use firearms. This causes less people to be interested in them and over time make the population more susceptible to anti-gun propaganda and laws.
Agreed.
But ... the left is going to, per usual, go for the gusto and use this latest incident to bash Trump and the GOP with re: pushing yet more gun control laws, natch. That's a given. They know the GOP will resist and are counting on it.
What I want to know is.... how is it that someone can smuggle that many rifles into a hotel room over a period of 3-4 days without being noticed. Seems like hotel security was asleep at the switch.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 02, 2017, 03:19:56 pm
Brother says he had no political or religious affiliation. The Las Vegas sheriff describes him as a distraught person (he was going through a divorce).
This may or may not be true, and the guy may have been a convert to Islam, or not. The truth will come out pretty soon after things settle down a bit.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 03:22:27 pm
Mine are too. Better than me, which is no small feat, but it is only because I am losing my eyesight in my dominant eye. I've also introduced two people at work, after careful vetting, to firearms, with multiple trips to the range, and with instruction on basic firearm safety.
Good on you. Hopefully they won't have to ever use what you've taught them.
Quote
But I agree with you about the blue states. My main point is that it will hit the red states too. It will just take longer.
Hopefully it will be after I'm long gone.
Weird to think that it used to be normal to have your rifle mounted in the window in your truck and now if you tried that you'd have the cops tossing you on the ground and cuffing you. had to explain that to my son when he wanted to buy a gun rack for his truck so he could put his Ruger 10/22 in there.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 03:31:35 pm
I think those politicizing this on both sides can go jump in a lake, this is a national tragedy, not "blue states without hope" and the President "did good enough", a discussion on gun rights before these bodies are even identified and still warm. How vile, really. Some have to get in their shots no matter what.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 03:31:56 pm
How conveeeenient for this guy to be some white guy who 'just snapped' with no record, no political affiliations or religion?
Too well-planned, to well executed to be some nitwit that went nuts IMO.
He checked in last Thursday and you'd have to think getting everything to the room would require multiple trips and/or assistance from someone else. As you say - too much went into planning and execution for it to be an opportunistic or heat of passion event.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 02, 2017, 03:33:14 pm
So people are now saying this is a conspiracy theory in here?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 02, 2017, 03:33:34 pm
Quote
Report: 'Samir al-Hajib,' shooter from Las Vegas
According to an unofficial report from Reshet Bet, the Las Vegas shooter's name is Samir al-Hajib. He is an American who converted to Islam at the age of 30 and lives in Las Vegas.
Israel National News (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/399561)
I have no idea whether the site is legit.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: GrouchoTex on October 02, 2017, 03:33:37 pm
Weird to think that it used to be normal to have your rifle mounted in the window in your truck and now if you tried that you'd have the cops tossing you on the ground and cuffing you. had to explain that to my son when he wanted to buy a gun rack for his truck so he could put his Ruger 10/22 in there.
I used to be a fairly common sight.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 02, 2017, 03:34:12 pm
Isis? Where is any evidence that he's ISIS? Does mystery-ak allow fake news on this website?
So you know for a fact that it was not ISIS? You know for a fact that ISIS claiming it was is a lie? ISIS calling for an attack on the Vegas strip back in May was just a coincidence?
REPORT: Las Vegas Strip ISIS Threats Emerge on Video (http://heavy.com/news/2017/05/las-vegas-isis-threats-terrorist-attack-video-propaganda-strip-hotels/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 02, 2017, 03:35:25 pm
So you know for a fact that it was not ISIS? You know for a fact that ISIS claiming it was is a lie? ISIS calling for an attack on the Vegas strip back in May was just a coincidence?
<a herf="http://heavy.com/news/2017/05/las-vegas-isis-threats-terrorist-attack-video-propaganda-strip-hotels/">REPORT: Las Vegas Strip ISIS Threats Emerge on Video[/url]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Burden of proof is on you.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 03:36:10 pm
@Cyber Liberty The video I'm seeing/hearing does not sound like echo's. I know what an echo sounds like and I've heard automatic fire as well. To me this sounds like an AK-47 or similar weapon. He probably had 30rd magazines but it sounds like he shoots longer than those would allow. The 40 Rd magazines tend to jam too much.
There are several places in Las Vegas where you can shoot full auto weapons, he might have stolen them.
I heard it on the radio on the way into work. Definitely auto fire.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 03:38:54 pm
Death toll up to 59.
515 injured.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 02, 2017, 03:39:19 pm
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Burden of proof is on you.
News outlets are reporting that ISIS has claimed this guy as one of their own. The burden of proof is not on us.
Quote
ISIS claims responsibility for Las Vegas massacre By Yaron Steinbuch October 2, 2017 | 10:23am
ISIS claimed responsibility Monday for the Las Vegas rampage, saying without offering evidence that the shooter had converted to Islam a few months ago, according to reports.
“The Las Vegas attack was carried out by a soldier of the Islamic State and he carried it out in response to calls to target states of the coalition,” the terror group’s news agency Amaq said in reference to the US-led coalition fighting the group in the Middle East.
“The Las Vegas attacker converted to Islam a few months ago,” Amaq also on the Telegram online messaging service, according to Agence France-Presse.
US officials said Monday that there was no evidence that the attacker was tied to any international militant group, though one official said security agencies were examining the ISIS claim of responsibility, Reuters reported. ...
New York Post (http://nypost.com/2017/10/02/isis-claims-responsibility-for-las-vegas-massacre/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 03:42:25 pm
It wasn't that long ago that kids would bring a gun to school and we would re-blue barrels, make new firing pins, refinish stocks, etc..... and no one thought twice about it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 03:53:51 pm
I think there was some other case that I can't remember, where a shooter went after a business in this way over a grudge. Maybe I will remember it later.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 03:54:27 pm
It wasn't that long ago that kids would bring a gun to school and we would re-blue barrels, make new firing pins, refinish stocks, etc..... and no one thought twice about it.
And now schools are gun-free zones. Perfect targets for some crazy guy with the right firepower.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 03:58:46 pm
They really should split the injured into "injured by gunfire" and "other causes," because I'm imagining quite a few people were probably trampled or whatnot.
Then again, I'm not watching the news, so what do I know?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 04:00:29 pm
It wasn't that long ago that kids would bring a gun to school and we would re-blue barrels, make new firing pins, refinish stocks, etc..... and no one thought twice about it.
They did when I was in high school, and it wasn't in the 1950s. I graduated HS in the 90s. We had hunting safety class and it wasn't unusual for someone to bring a hunting rifle to class to learn how to properly clean it. During deer season, you would often see rifles on racks in truck windows in the school parking lot. The rule was keep it unloaded, keep your vehicle locked.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 04:01:27 pm
NBC NewsVerified account @NBCNews 14m14 minutes ago
BREAKING: FBI says they have determined that there is no connection between the Las Vegas shooter and an international terror group
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: skeeter on October 02, 2017, 04:03:40 pm
They really should split the injured into "injured by gunfire" and "other causes," because I'm imagining quite a few people were probably trampled or whatnot.
Then again, I'm not watching the news, so what do I know?
Right now, I doubt anyone has time to split up the number of injured. From what I heard this morning, the hospitals are in enough chaos just trying to treat all the injured. One reporter talked about one hospital as being especially trained and equipped to handle mass casualties, but even that hospital is having trouble keeping up with treating the injured. I doubt anyone can be that prepared for something like this.
Title: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:07:00 pm
President Trump's Remarks on Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017 Youtube, Oct 2, 2017. WhiteHouse.gov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A0F8akW4Gc
Title: Re: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:07:16 pm
Posting for those who may have missed this live.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 04:10:58 pm
Paul Joseph WatsonVerified account @PrisonPlanet 4h4 hours ago
Leftist Teacher Celebrates “White Trump Supporters” Being Killed in Las Vegas Massacre - https://www.infowars.com/leftist-teacher-celebrates-white-trump-supporters-being-killed-in-las-vegas-massacre/ … (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLIf2WNWAAAAPMN.jpg)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: CSM on October 02, 2017, 04:12:12 pm
Uuugh, a suppressor effects ballistics so it would reduce effectiveness for something that far. Plus, with a higher powered rifle, it doesn't reduce the sound very much.
Democrats think that life is accurately portrayed in the movies. Thy honestly believe a "silencer" silences a gun to just a pfft sound.....idiots.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:12:59 pm
NBC NewsVerified account @NBCNews 14m14 minutes ago
BREAKING: FBI says they have determined that there is no connection between the Las Vegas shooter and an international terror group
Very misleading- the FBI hedged by saying "determined to this point no connection with international terrorist group and as the investigation continues we will continue to work with our partners to make sure that is factual...."
That NBC reporter is really making a leap- does anyone believe that they have investigated Paddock's entire life, the several places he's lived where he owned homes at which he was rarely present- which is strange? It is way too early to have a hard and fast motive.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:14:59 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
Title: Re: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:15:18 pm
It was amazing to watch, very spiritual.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: CSM on October 02, 2017, 04:15:39 pm
He could have gone after a country music crowd but I'd think more likely, he was just shooting at an open crowd; is it any wonder, it would take awhile to find him and if the music was loud, you might not be aware for awhile what was going on.
Now, we will have to rethink about large gatherings per security.
3 football fields away and I saw another excerpt, 400 yards away.
A lot of unconfirmed info out there, 2 windows broken out, 110 feet separate from each other. I don't know if I believe that.
One sees from the graphic, how easy it would be to cause havoc in this manner.
Either the picture is creating an optical illusion, or a skewed perspective or the target area is a very long ways away from the hotel.
Does anyone here know how far that is? It appears to me to be in the neighborhood of a 1,000 yard shot. I wish I had paid more attention in High School Geometry....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 04:16:51 pm
One reporter talked about one hospital as being especially trained and equipped to handle mass casualties, but even that hospital is having trouble keeping up with treating the injured. I doubt anyone can be that prepared for something like this.
You can't, completely. Mass casualties, by definition, overwhelm the staff and facility capacity. It takes a great amount of communication and organization at the scene to triage, prioritize, and distribute patients to facilities. I worked at a Baltimore hospital in 1987 when an Amtrak and freight train collided. They only had around a dozen dead and 150 injured in that accident and it was still chaotic.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:17:28 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
Posted earlier: I think it would not be too hard to bust out a window and shoot from that location and maybe this was at night too.
They did when I was in high school, and it wasn't in the 1950s. I graduated HS in the 90s. We had hunting safety class and it wasn't unusual for someone to bring a hunting rifle to class to learn how to properly clean it. During deer season, you would often see rifles on racks in truck windows in the school parking lot. The rule was keep it unloaded, keep your vehicle locked.
Where I taught, getting a deer or two was the difference between having meat on the table of going hungry. On several occasions I had students called out of class to go home because "The cows got out of the fence."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:19:22 pm
Either the picture is creating an optical illusion, or a skewed perspective or the target area is a very long ways away from the hotel.
Does anyone here know how far that is? It appears to me to be in the neighborhood of a 1,000 yard shot. I wish I had paid more attention in High School Geometry....
3 football fields, one quote I saw said 400 yards. I hope that is what you are asking.
So, I imagine, this person spraying the crowd randomly.
Also, maybe some trampling deaths? Fox News did show some video of the folks running away but nothing about "trampling deaths" that can happen.
Title: Re: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 04:19:51 pm
It's a good speech and I like when Trump's speeches are prepared for him. He sounds presidential. It's just that left to his own devices, he comes off badly.
Of course, no one is as bad as Obama was. I bet if this tragedy occurred during his reign, Obama would be apologizing to terrorists or something. And he too would be using this opportunity to advance more gun control. The guy was absolutely no comfort in a sad situation like this.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 02, 2017, 04:20:23 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
I've watched some of the YOUTUBE videos of this attack and did not notice any muzzle flash from the Mandalay which featured prominently in the videos. People were saying it was the sound system or fireworks. The sound is that of automatic fire, then shooting stops while he reloads or gets another weapon. Several periods of shooting- unmistakable sound IMO.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:21:02 pm
Paul Joseph WatsonVerified account @PrisonPlanet 4h4 hours ago
Leftist Teacher Celebrates “White Trump Supporters” Being Killed in Las Vegas Massacre - https://www.infowars.com/leftist-teacher-celebrates-white-trump-supporters-being-killed-in-las-vegas-massacre/ … (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLIf2WNWAAAAPMN.jpg)
Words fail me. They just fail me. **nononono*
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:21:13 pm
3 football fields, this has been well reported in the news; he really was far away. Anyone can hunt down the details if they don't believe. That's why this would have been hard to get the killer right off the bat. It's actually an effective ploy to create such mayhem.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: SZonian on October 02, 2017, 04:22:32 pm
I've watched some of the YOUTUBE videos of this attack and did not notice any muzzle flash from the Mandalay which featured prominently in the videos. People were saying it was the sound system or fireworks. The sound is that of automatic fire, then shooting stops while he reloads or gets another weapon. Several periods of shooting- unmistakable sound IMO.
But no one .. no security crew ... within the hotel could locate this guy? (I'm not saying anything more than ... wow. So much for hotel security. **nononono*)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:24:04 pm
But no one .. no security crew ... within the hotel could locate this guy? (I'm not saying anything more than ... wow. So much for hotel security. **nononono*)
He was in his room since mid-September I believe they said, with an arsenal of guns. I don't see why that would be surprising. 33rd floor, big hotel, Sunday night, it might take awhile to discover what's going on.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:28:39 pm
He was in his room since mid-September I believe they said, with an arsenal of guns. I don't see why that would be surprising. 33rd floor, big hotel, Sunday night, it might take awhile to discover what's going on.
I guess this makes some sense.
The whole event is just so senseless.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 04:29:03 pm
He was in his room since mid-September I believe they said, with an arsenal of guns. I don't see why that would be surprising. 33rd floor, big hotel, Sunday night, it might take awhile to discover what's going on.
He's been in the hotel since last Thursday -- the 28th.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 02, 2017, 04:29:24 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
Have you been to one of these hotels on the strip? Do you realize how big they are? And how noisy? I think it's miraculous they found him as quickly as they did and got SWAT in place so quickly. The first cop there can't just charge the room they had to get the right personnel and equipment in place. What if he would have had enough explosives in the room to kill many in the hotel when detonated?
Title: Re: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 04:29:59 pm
Have you been to one of these hotels on the strip? Do you realize how big they are? And how noisy? I think it's miraculous they found him as quickly as they did and got SWAT in place so quickly. The first cop there can't just charge the room they had to get the right personnel and equipment in place. What if he would have had enough explosives in the room to kill many in the hotel when detonated?
Okay ... calm down. Point made, point taken.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 04:31:57 pm
Either the picture is creating an optical illusion, or a skewed perspective or the target area is a very long ways away from the hotel.
Does anyone here know how far that is? It appears to me to be in the neighborhood of a 1,000 yard shot. I wish I had paid more attention in High School Geometry....
The perspective does seem off, I think it has something to do with how Google is adding 3D buildings which, in this case, appear very small (think about the width of a 4 lane road). When I was there last year, it felt like the buildings were all right close to each other. You are looking at a few hundred yards, not a few thousand.
This shows a better idea of the building size and how it is practically right on top of the area where the concert is. (http://static.local-hero.org/images/venues/las_vegas_mandalay_bay_big.jpg)
Here is Google Street view of the location.
https://goo.gl/maps/3Ybv69Q82Bw
I'm going to check on Google Earth in a little bit and measure the distance.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 04:36:35 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
A couple of high powered rifle rounds will are a good start to compromising the integrity of the glass to the point where you can use the butt of the weapon to clear the rest of it out.
Quote
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
Muzzle flash is the best way. But if the shooter doesn't stand directly in the window and backs up a couple feet from the edge to start firing...it reduces the chance of being seen.
From what i've been hearing this morning...the smoke detectors going off in his room is what helped the cops zero in on where he was shooting from.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Ghost Bear on October 02, 2017, 04:37:03 pm
Have you been to one of these hotels on the strip? Do you realize how big they are? And how noisy? I think it's miraculous they found him as quickly as they did and got SWAT in place so quickly. The first cop there can't just charge the room they had to get the right personnel and equipment in place. What if he would have had enough explosives in the room to kill many in the hotel when detonated?
From the news reports that I heard this morning, the hotel staff were able to tell the police which room he was in because the firearms that he was using put off enough exhaust from being fired to set off the smoke alarm in his room.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 02, 2017, 04:37:50 pm
NBC NewsVerified account @NBCNews 14m14 minutes ago
BREAKING: FBI says they have determined that there is no connection between the Las Vegas shooter and an international terror group
Gee, that was sure quick.
How come the "Russia," influence thing is taking them sooooooo long?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 04:38:05 pm
Weird thing about Vegas -- at least for me -- is that sometimes it's difficult to perceive distance. I can look outside my window of a hotel, see a building across the way and think it's close by, then try to walk there and find out it isn't all that close. Or some things might look far, but in reality, they are much closer than I realize. I don't know why that is -- just that I've been fooled on more than one occasion.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 04:39:12 pm
Attached is a rough distance calculation from Google Earth of 404 yards, not very far at all. Considering he was shooting down into a crowd of over ten thousand from an elevated position, no special skill would be needed.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 04:39:32 pm
Have you been to one of these hotels on the strip? Do you realize how big they are? And how noisy? I think it's miraculous they found him as quickly as they did and got SWAT in place so quickly. The first cop there can't just charge the room they had to get the right personnel and equipment in place. What if he would have had enough explosives in the room to kill many in the hotel when detonated?
I read that he was easily found because the smoke from firing the weapon set off the room's smoke alarm.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 04:40:19 pm
Attached is a rough distance calculation from Google Earth of 404 yards, not very far at all. Considering he was shooting down into a crowd of over ten thousand from an elevated position, no special skill would be needed.
Nope none at all if all you're doing is spraying bullets at a large area target...which is what that crowd was.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 04:40:50 pm
The perspective does seem off, I think it has something to do with how Google is adding 3D buildings which, in this case, appear very small (think about the width of a 4 lane road). When I was there last year, it felt like the buildings were all right close to each other. You are looking at a few hundred yards, not a few thousand.
This shows a better idea of the building size and how it is practically right on top of the area where the concert is. (http://static.local-hero.org/images/venues/las_vegas_mandalay_bay_big.jpg)
Here is Google Street view of the location.
A lot would depend on which room he was actually in but I think he was pretty close to the end. This morning on Fox they said it was 1000-1200 ft, so 250 to 300 yards. Difficult with iron sites but then he didn't really have to be very accurate. His rate of fire would have precluded aimed shots anyway. Again, didn't matter with the density of the people at the concert.
In my experience everything in Vegas is about this far from everything else. Going down a block and across the street can be a 1/2 mile of walking.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 04:44:16 pm
Attached is a rough distance calculation from Google Earth of 404 yards, not very far at all. Considering he was shooting down into a crowd of over ten thousand from an elevated position, no special skill would be needed.
Especially so with a full auto weapon involved.
This is a highly premeditated event. He spent some time working all this out.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 04:44:27 pm
Saying this is footage of him at an anti-Trump rally, so take it with a grain of salt; who knows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzO0lgvQID0
Again, this is unconfirmed, I don't want to just post speculation, remove if it doesn't seem proper.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 04:46:01 pm
A lot would depend on which room he was actually in but I think he was pretty close to the end. This morning on Fox they said it was 1000-1200 ft, so 250 to 300 yards. Difficult with iron sites but then he didn't really have to be very accurate. His rate of fire would have precluded aimed shots anyway. Again, didn't matter with the density of the people at the concert.
In my experience everything in Vegas is about this far from everything else. Going down a block and across the street can be a 1/2 mile of walking.
The two windows the media keeps showing are on that spur that is just to the left of the McDonalds sign...he had a perfect field of fire down on the crowd from above and behind the stage from one window and then to the right of the stage from the other window.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: CSM on October 02, 2017, 04:46:04 pm
Attached is a rough distance calculation from Google Earth of 404 yards, not very far at all. Considering he was shooting down into a crowd of over ten thousand from an elevated position, no special skill would be needed.
Very interesting, thank you for doing that research. 400 yards isn't peanuts, but it is much closer than I was thinking.....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 04:47:16 pm
So you know for a fact that it was not ISIS? You know for a fact that ISIS claiming it was is a lie? ISIS calling for an attack on the Vegas strip back in May was just a coincidence?
REPORT: Las Vegas Strip ISIS Threats Emerge on Video (http://heavy.com/news/2017/05/las-vegas-isis-threats-terrorist-attack-video-propaganda-strip-hotels/)
Of course no one is surprised ISIS would want to attack this country. But it's not logical to assume right off the bat that they're behind every murder/mass killing. That's conspiracy thinking. Especially when you discount what the FBI is saying.
Btw, that site is partially owned by a guy whose last name is Assaad. :pondering:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 04:47:19 pm
CBS Legal Exec: No Sympathy For Vegas ‘Because Country Music Fans Often Are Republican’ http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/cbs-legal-exec-no-sympathy-because-country-music-fans-often-are-republican/
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 04:48:13 pm
Saying this is footage of him at an anti-Trump rally, so take it with a grain of salt; who knows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzO0lgvQID0
Again, this is unconfirmed, I don't want to just post speculation, remove if it doesn't seem proper.
That's way too out of focus to get anything from it. Not all old guys with gray hair are the same person (and the guy in the video is wearing a pink hat so even more difficult to make any sort of speculation). I'm sure there are a million people around that area that could potentially fit that description.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 04:50:16 pm
CBS Legal Exec: No Sympathy For Vegas ‘Because Country Music Fans Often Are Republican’ http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/cbs-legal-exec-no-sympathy-because-country-music-fans-often-are-republican/
Listening to the video...close to 30 seconds of sustained fire at one point...deeper sound than 5.56 (more of a "thud thud" than a "crack crack")...so IMHO he either illegally modified semi-auto (single shot) rifles or illegally purchased fully auto weapons and some how got them into the country.
Not even the bionic hand of the Six Million Dollar Man could fire a semi-auto rifle that fast.
@txradioguy Some people have suggested he used a binary trigger. Those shoot once when you pull and again when you release. The shooting seems to regular to me.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 04:53:08 pm
That's way too out of focus to get anything from it. Not all old guys with gray hair are the same person (and the guy in the video is wearing a pink hat so even more difficult to make any sort of speculation). I'm sure there are a million people around that area that could potentially fit that description.
Then, also, the woman next to him in some of the pictures, appears to look like his Asian wife. That part makes it a bit interesting and I'd say, per hair and sunglasses, it does look like this Marilou.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 04:54:57 pm
@txradioguy Some people have suggested he used a binary trigger. Those shoot once when you pull and again when you release. The shooting seems to regular to me.
I've never heard of those. Time to do some research.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 04:55:39 pm
Sixty-four is a bit old for this kind of lunacy. Isn't it?
My guess is that his target was merely a copycat thing. He wanted a high victim count. In the news recently was a bombing at the end of a big concert. He just copied the idea.
The big question is, what is the root of this rage and need for attention?
Given his age and other currently known facts, the only thing that makes any sense would be a terminally ill person with an axe to grind with the demographic at the event. But, that's a WAG on my part, trying to make sense of something senseless.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 04:55:56 pm
Well this is interesting.
His father was on the FBI most wanted list, bank robber. Escaped prison and was caught, died in prison.
Either the picture is creating an optical illusion, or a skewed perspective or the target area is a very long ways away from the hotel.
Does anyone here know how far that is? It appears to me to be in the neighborhood of a 1,000 yard shot. I wish I had paid more attention in High School Geometry....
In order for it to be a 1,000 yard shot the hotel needs to be 994 yards from the music venue. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 A=320 feet or 107 yards squared = 11449 yards C=1000 yards squared = 1,000.000 yards C^2-A^2 = 988552 SQ Root of 988552= 994
But looking at google Earth I'd say the music venue was 200 yards from the hotel so that makes B=200 yds B^2 is 40,000 yds 40,000 + 11449 = 51449 Sq Root of 51449 is 227 yards so shooter was taking 200+ yards shots. Not at all a hard shot if you know what you are doing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 05:00:34 pm
CBS Legal Exec: No Sympathy For Vegas ‘Because Country Music Fans Often Are Republican’ http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/cbs-legal-exec-no-sympathy-because-country-music-fans-often-are-republican/
In order for it to be a 1,000 yard shot the hotel needs to be 994 yards from the music venue. A^2 + B^2 = C^2 A=320 feet or 107 yards squared = 11449 yards C=1000 yards squared = 1,000.000 yards C^2-A^2 = 988552 SQ Root of 988552= 994
But looking at google Earth I'd say the music venue was 200 yards from the hotel so that makes B=200 yds B^2 is 40,000 yds 40,000 + 11449 = 51449 Sq Root of 51449 is 227 yards so shooter was taking 200+ yards shots. Not at all a hard shot if you know what you are doing.
True ballistic range changes at high angles, as well. There wouldn't be much bullet drop from that position and crowd size makes accuracy less important. The biggest problem would be dispersion in full auto fire.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 05:08:05 pm
Especially at that hotel where there is a golf course (Bali Hai) across the street. (opposite side of the hotel from the shooting side).
Just speculation at this point but it would be a way to bring a lot of gear in. Just looks like the hundred other guests who are going in and out for some rounds of golf.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 05:14:40 pm
Since he was there for awhile I was wondering about if a maid noticed anything in his room...Mandalay spokeperson on Fox has stated employess had been in and out of his room and noticed nothing nefarious..
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Oceander on October 02, 2017, 05:17:21 pm
CBS Legal Exec: No Sympathy For Vegas ‘Because Country Music Fans Often Are Republican’ http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/02/cbs-legal-exec-no-sympathy-because-country-music-fans-often-are-republican/
That's disgusting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 02, 2017, 05:17:45 pm
True ballistic range changes at high angles, as well. There wouldn't be much bullet drop from that position and crowd size makes accuracy less important. The biggest problem would be dispersion in full auto fire.
There would still be drop but as you say not as much as with a horizontal shot. I could do the math but it is lunch time, plus I'd need to know the velocity of the bullet which I don't know. All in all it looks like he was shooting fish in a barrel. You get almost instant feed back shooting full auto with a large magazine and if he had tracers every 3rd or 4th round ...... piece of cake.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 02, 2017, 05:19:32 pm
How is it someone can break out a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel ... and no one knows this? (Sorry if this seems like a silly question .. but it's just bothering me so much)
He shot them out.
Quote
How can no one identify the room once the shooting starts?
It'd be the one with the windows shot out. He also tripped the fire alarm in the room because of all the gun smoke. So they knew right away where he was.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 05:19:48 pm
I'm not buying this "crazy" thing. Crazy and evil are two different things and our current culture tends to conflate the two.
Kevin Spacey's character in Seven summed it up quite well when he said, 'It's more comfortable for you to label me insane.'
People, in general, have a hard time accepting someone with rational and clear thinking could do such a thing. Mostly, it's due to the fact we view things from our own perspective and cannot imagine ourselves doing the same, unless we were mentally ill.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 05:20:33 pm
Hard sided suitcases...backpacks...golf bag...depending on the size of the rifle and it's ability to be broken down you can carry a rifle in any of those bags and no one would ever know what I've got.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 05:21:10 pm
I've never heard of those. Time to do some research.
@txradioguy Pretty much the same as the other things already posted. They function slightly different but are attempts to bypass the law. I've always shied away from them as I think they are too risk. And while full auto is fun its not all that useful unless you are in close quarter combat.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 05:22:06 pm
Since he was there for awhile I was wondering about if a maid noticed anything in his room...Mandalay spokeperson on Fox has stated employess had been in and out of his room and noticed nothing nefarious..
Sheriff's office says maids have been in and out of the room...didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.
If it were me...it would all stay hidden in my car in the parking garage until I was ready to execute.
Also, he very well could have kept everything broken down in suitcases in the closet in the room. The maids wouldn't have had any reason to open them and see what he really had packed in them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 05:24:13 pm
It'd be the one with the windows shot out. He also tripped the fire alarm in the room because of all the gun smoke. So they knew right away where he was.
"Police said they believe Paddock killed himself prior to police entry. Authorities believe the suspect used a device similar to a hammer to smash the hotel room windows."
I posted the quote from the CBS Legal Exec on Facebook and was immediately condemned by liberal acquaintances. They charged for me to repeat what she said was worse then her saying it.
Our country is in big trouble. The things these people are saying are not isolated.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 05:29:24 pm
Genius. Killed and maimed many, for years. Evil of course. Crazy? Don't know.
Charles Whitman, Univ. of Texas Tower, planned, executed, brain tumor.
There are many different types of 'crazy' (which is not a medical term). You have your schizophrenics of various degrees who have distorted views of reality. Psychopaths who have distorted views of morals and ethical ramifications. You have those who have various traumatic issues who express that in different ways. Some have emotional or anger issues and/or the inability to cope with normal society. There are also deep depression and self-harm issues. Also, many are influenced through outside factors (drugs, religious extremism, etc).
All of these we would label 'crazy' but are very different and can manifest themselves in different ways. With almost every single one of these, you could see this person on the street, work with this person, or even live with this person and not know what they are facing on the inside until there is a 'snap' and something changes. Luckily, in most cases it doesn't result in instances like this.
So 'crazy' certainly is a factor, it is just a matter of what type of crazy and how it is manifested.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Meldrew on October 02, 2017, 05:30:02 pm
That's what I thought when I heard it too. Long continuous stream of 7.62 fire.
Some military training is implied. Those pauses in fire are letting the barrel cool. The M16A4 3 round burst is made to slow the fire rate. You can't fire continuously. The gun won't take it.
The fact that he pauses every few seconds, tell me that he has done this before. He knew what he was doing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 05:32:36 pm
It's a good speech and I like when Trump's speeches are prepared for him. He sounds presidential. It's just that left to his own devices, he comes off badly.
Well put.
I wish we saw more of this Trump. And it was really good for this moment.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 02, 2017, 05:37:57 pm
Some military training is implied. Those pauses in fire are letting the barrel cool. [...] The fact that he pauses every few seconds, tell me that he has done this before. He knew what he was doing.
I think the two stations were for that purpose, and the time between was moving between stations. While one is cooling off, he's using the other. Definitely longer than a simple mag change, even if unfamiliar with the rig...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 05:40:16 pm
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 05:42:23 pm
Possible political donations.
I don't know if this is him, so take it with a grain of salt. The problem is they say he moved a lot recently, 40 something different addresses, so no way to pinpoint if any of these are him or just some guy with the same name. http://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=Stephen+Paddock
AnyWho show at least 10 Stephen Paddocks in the US, many could be the same person with multiple addresses. https://www.anywho.com/people/stephen-paddock
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 02, 2017, 05:42:58 pm
If the broken window with the curtain fluttering in it is any indication...it looks like he broke it out...there was no balcony. It was a floor to ceiling window that has just a few jagged edges left.
that glass splattering around from 32 stories up would have caused a commotion by itself.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 05:44:40 pm
Las Vegas shooting: Call for blood donors to help hundreds wounded http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-call-for-blood-donors-to-help-hundreds-wounded.html
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 05:47:07 pm
Dana Loesch just said there were reports of active military in the crowd who fell on top of other people to shield them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 05:47:36 pm
that glass splattering around from 32 stories up would have caused a commotion by itself.
Around the lower floors is a covered entryway and drop off area as well as covered walkways to the two main buildings and parking garages. Also, his room looks to be above the conference room and casino area so there would be the top of those attached buildings below his room. The glass could have fallen on the roof of that and no one would be the wiser.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 05:47:56 pm
Saying this is footage of him at an anti-Trump rally, so take it with a grain of salt; who knows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzO0lgvQID0
Again, this is unconfirmed, I don't want to just post speculation, remove if it doesn't seem proper.
In the comments below the video on youtube, someone identifies this woman as his estranged wife. She does look similar to the woman next to him in the video, but it's impossible to say if that is her for sure.
https://twitter.com/pattipaddock
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 05:48:39 pm
that glass splattering around from 32 stories up would have caused a commotion by itself.
Yeah the people in the lobby or at the valet parking would have noticed it...music from the concert would have negated the concert goers from noticing. And until the gunfire started the hotel would have treated it like a job for maintenance.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 05:51:41 pm
In the comments below the video on youtube, someone identifies this woman as his estranged wife. She does look similar to the woman next to him in the video, but it's impossible to say if that is her for sure.
https://twitter.com/pattipaddock
I don't believe that is her real twitter. This happens all the time. If you right click on the profile image and look at the properties, that profile image was just updated recently today. It is also easy to change the handle of a twitter account. Happens during all of these events. Trolls have a bunch of fake accounts and when something like this happens, they change the account to look like someone related to the event. Also, I can't find a record of that twitter handle before today in archive search. It probably was just changed today.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 02, 2017, 05:54:15 pm
Talk about connecting dots, wasn't OJ released at about the same time? Wasn't he in a Nevada prison? Wasn't he apprehended in Las Vegas and holds a grudge for them? Wasn't he caught with a gun? Doesn't he hate country music?
Oh, I see he missed being a suspect for a few hours.
Back to the message boards.....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 05:55:41 pm
Talk about connecting dots, wasn't OJ released at about the same time? Wasn't he in a Nevada prison? Wasn't he apprehended in Las Vegas and holds a grudge for them? Wasn't he caught with a gun? Doesn't he hate country music?
Oh, I see he missed being a suspect for a few hours.
Back to the message boards.....
LOL, don't give the TOS types any ideas.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: 240B on October 02, 2017, 05:58:10 pm
It is that twinge.
When I heard that gunfire, all I wanted was get into that building. Find the guy. And kill him.
How many of us wanted to run toward that gunfire. It is an instinct.
A guy in Africa told me, 'You Americans are crazy!' He said, 'We run away from gunfire, Americans run to it!'
I would have shot that guy dead. And I wouldn't lose any sleep about it. Oh well, we shall see how this plays out.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 06:00:01 pm
I think the two stations were for that purpose, and the time between was moving between stations. While one is cooling off, he's using the other. Definitely longer than a simple mag change, even if unfamiliar with the rig...
@roamer_1 I'd wager it wasn't to let the weapons cool off. A couple of minutes isn't going to matter much in the long run.
I'd bet it was to give him two different angles to increase the number of people he could hit. The extra weapons were probably just to give him back up in case of a malfunction or if he managed to keep the cops out for any length of time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 06:03:09 pm
@driftdiver it's almost impossible to hold down an AK-47 and keep the muzzle from jumping up if it's on full auto.
Tried a few times with some captured ones in Iraq.
@txradioguy Anyone with training would have used bursts. They'll probably find a lot of bullets impacted well beyond the concert area as his barrel rose. still he didn't have to be very accurate. The number of wounded indicate he was able to control the weapon. maybe he had it strapped down.
Hard to believe someone didn't pick up a clue he was going to do this.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 06:04:36 pm
Around the lower floors is a covered entryway and drop off area as well as covered walkways to the two main buildings and parking garages. Also, his room looks to be above the conference room and casino area so there would be the top of those attached buildings below his room. The glass could have fallen on the roof of that and no one would be the wiser.
Similar to Jean Stein's suicide (Katrina Vanden Heuvel's mother) this past May. She jumped from her 15th floor apartment, but landed on the 8th floor overhang. They only found out because people saw legs hanging over the edge.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 06:07:57 pm
@roamer_1 I'd wager it wasn't to let the weapons cool off. A couple of minutes isn't going to matter much in the long run.
I'd bet it was to give him two different angles to increase the number of people he could hit. The extra weapons were probably just to give him back up in case of a malfunction or if he managed to keep the cops out for any length of time.
Even to let the weapons cool off no longer implies formal training. If one were to research using an automatic weapon, they'll find hundreds of videos in minutes on YouTube that mention this. You can also rent Class 3 firearms at ranges all over Vegas and the instructors there will give you this basic piece of knowledge.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 02, 2017, 06:09:12 pm
@roamer_1 I'd wager it wasn't to let the weapons cool off. A couple of minutes isn't going to matter much in the long run.
@driftdiver It isn't a couple minutes. I think that's why he had multiple weapons. assuming a couple of the seized weapons were pistols (one for sure, with which he offed himself), that's four rifles per station.
Of course, if he didn't figger he was leaving that room, I don't suppose he is going to care if he's burning the barrels down...
Quote
I'd bet it was to give him two different angles to increase the number of people he could hit. The extra weapons were probably just to give him back up in case of a malfunction or if he managed to keep the cops out for any length of time.
I dunno. The two stations don't make sense to me. He had a seriously rich target environment, off of either nest. Why move?
Just trying to understand the thinking.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 02, 2017, 06:11:09 pm
I don't know if this is him, so take it with a grain of salt. The problem is they say he moved a lot recently, 40 something different addresses, so no way to pinpoint if any of these are him or just some guy with the same name. http://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=Stephen+Paddock
AnyWho show at least 10 Stephen Paddocks in the US, many could be the same person with multiple addresses. https://www.anywho.com/people/stephen-paddock
Not the same Paddock (I already checked and found nada).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 06:12:38 pm
Around the lower floors is a covered entryway and drop off area as well as covered walkways to the two main buildings and parking garages. Also, his room looks to be above the conference room and casino area so there would be the top of those attached buildings below his room. The glass could have fallen on the roof of that and no one would be the wiser.
Another aspect of the "planned meticulously" theory?
This guy was no dummy... unless he had help and guidance. I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Emjay on October 02, 2017, 06:13:33 pm
Especially sick because of the comments by some media people. I cannot believe they said such things as ... we don't care ... country music lovers are usually 'repuglicans.'
How divided is this country?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 06:14:45 pm
@driftdiver It isn't a couple minutes. I think that's why he had multiple weapons. assuming a couple of the seized weapons were pistols (one for sure, with which he offed himself), that's four rifles per station.
Of course, if he didn't figger he was leaving that room, I don't suppose he is going to care if he's burning the barrels down...
I dunno. The two stations don't make sense to me. He had a seriously rich target environment, off of either nest. Why move?
Just trying to understand the thinking.
What's interesting about the two windows broken out, and this could totally be coincidence based on the layout of his room, (bolding that for emphasis) would be the two fields of view, One overlooked the concert area, one overlooked the entrance to the hotel. IF (big IF) this were planned this way, could it be he was using the broken window overlooking the hotel entrance to fire on any law enforcement coming into the hotel to get him?
Again, big IF; probably speculating too much.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 06:15:22 pm
Dana Perino said moments ago that Paddock was known to LEO......then went to the WH press briefing
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 06:16:09 pm
Another aspect of the "planned meticulously" theory?
This guy was no dummy... unless he had help and guidance. I guess time will tell.
Nope, that's how the the hotel is in general. He wouldn't have had to planned to be in a room overlooking one of these covered areas, it almost all is over these areas.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 06:16:24 pm
What's interesting about the two windows broken out, and this could totally be coincidence based on the layout of his room, (bolding that for emphasis) would be the two fields of view, One overlooked the concert area, one overlooked the entrance to the hotel. IF (big IF) this were planned this way, could it be he was using the broken window overlooking the hotel entrance to fire on any law enforcement coming into the hotel to get him?
Again, big IF; probably speculating too much.
That seems to be a very large room..
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: chae on October 02, 2017, 06:16:40 pm
Well, according to Pamela Geller, it was him at the anti-Trump protest. She added that Lockheed Martin had NASA contracts, which could explain the "NASA" shirt he's wearing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 02, 2017, 06:17:10 pm
@driftdiver It isn't a couple minutes. I think that's why he had multiple weapons. assuming a couple of the seized weapons were pistols (one for sure, with which he offed himself), that's four rifles per station.
Of course, if he didn't figger he was leaving that room, I don't suppose he is going to care if he's burning the barrels down...
I dunno. The two stations don't make sense to me. He had a seriously rich target environment, off of either nest. Why move?
Just trying to understand the thinking.
Based on the pictures I've seen, the one window angle may have been somewhat obstructed by the large concert screen. The corner window didn't seem to be as much. Also, the crowd would most likely move directly away from the stage, into his second field of fire.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 02, 2017, 06:18:25 pm
What's interesting about the two windows broken out, and this could totally be coincidence based on the layout of his room, (bolding that for emphasis) would be the two fields of view, One overlooked the concert area, one overlooked the entrance to the hotel. IF (big IF) this were planned this way, could it be he was using the broken window overlooking the hotel entrance to fire on any law enforcement coming into the hotel to get him?
Again, big IF; probably speculating too much.
I don't know. He DIDN'T go after LEOs approaching, so no...
I'd say maybe just to get ventilation to get the fire alarm to quit screaming... But that can't be... Police reports specify two separate nests. There was a purpose to it, and I don't understand it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Emjay on October 02, 2017, 06:18:29 pm
What's interesting about the two windows broken out, and this could totally be coincidence based on the layout of his room, (bolding that for emphasis) would be the two fields of view, One overlooked the concert area, one overlooked the entrance to the hotel. IF (big IF) this were planned this way, could it be he was using the broken window overlooking the hotel entrance to fire on any law enforcement coming into the hotel to get him?
Again, big IF; probably speculating too much.
@AbaraXas He was obviously intelligent and seems to have planned this out to the smallest detail. He took so many lives and damaged so many more. He emboldened our enemies and empowered those trying to destroy America. Its unfathomable but not surprising they are already using it against us.
A sick evil bastard, I hope he rots in hell.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 06:21:26 pm
I don't know. He DIDN'T go after LEOs approaching, so no...
I'd say maybe just to get ventilation to get the fire alarm to quit screaming... But that can't be... Police reports specify two separate nests. There was a purpose to it, and I don't understand it.
@roamer_1 He apparently had cameras in the hallway so he probably knew the cops were there. The cops used explosives to enter the room, something he may not have anticipated. It might have thrown him off. If so good, otherwise we'd be hearing complaints about how the cops shot him.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 06:21:38 pm
Well, according to Pamela Geller, it was him at the anti-Trump protest. She added that Lockheed Martin had NASA contracts, which could explain the "NASA" shirt he's wearing.
Seriously, that is one very, very blurry video with zero evidence it is him other than it looks like a million other old guys. That could have been Paul Krugman or Jeff Bridges for all we know in that video.
Someone like her making that conclusive statement is very, very irresponsible.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 06:24:28 pm
Based on the pictures I've seen, the one window angle may have been somewhat obstructed by the large concert screen. The corner window didn't seem to be as much. Also, the crowd would most likely move directly away from the stage, into his second field of fire.
Alright, I'd say, except two nests. If he got all set up, and was running out of targets, and moved to the secondary, it would have been an ad-hock/impromptu/make do station. He purposefully built two nests.
He's got some hunting experience, so that explains the high perch, but predicting a requirement for two seems odd.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 06:25:08 pm
No, I have a nephew born almost the same date and he looks like a kid. People look younger than they used to.
True. Some people don't look their age, but in this case, I think the photo of an older man that is being circulated is him. Presumably, he was identified from his driver's license photo.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 06:25:23 pm
Prayers for all of the dead, 58 last count I saw,
515 injured, that's one heckuva high toll also. Over half a thousand.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Emjay on October 02, 2017, 06:27:33 pm
Seriously, that is one very, very blurry video with zero evidence it is him other than it looks like a million other old guys. That could have been Paul Krugman or Jeff Bridges for all we know in that video.
Someone like her making that conclusive statement is very, very irresponsible.
Someone in public needs to be cautious but I don't. That definitely looks like him in the video and I think it will eventually be proven to be him
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 06:29:04 pm
Alright, I'd say, except two nests. If he got all set up, and was running out of targets, and moved to the secondary, it would have been an ad-hock/impromptu/make do station. He purposefully built two nests.
He's got some hunting experience, so that explains the high perch, but predicting a requirement for two seems odd.
Well, he had been there since last Thursday and the concert was a multi-day event. He had plenty of time to watch/study entries, exits, crowd movement, and security.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 02, 2017, 06:33:57 pm
@roamer_1 He apparently had cameras in the hallway so he probably knew the cops were there. The cops used explosives to enter the room, something he may not have anticipated. It might have thrown him off. If so good, otherwise we'd be hearing complaints about how the cops shot him.
Already at least one news agency said this shooting mimicked the 1966 UT tower shooting in which Charles Whitman gunned down dozens, killing many. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-recalls-similar-slaughter-texas-clock-tower-shooting.html
No one complained on the police taking him out with one officer unloading his revolver and another with a shotgun.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 02, 2017, 06:34:20 pm
Someone in public needs to be cautious but I don't. That definitely looks like him in the video and I think it will eventually be proven to be him
I just find all the speculation that this was just some hopped up liberal at this point as irresponsible as MSNBC saying this was a Tea Party member or right wing gun nut. We just don't know.
Also, no offense, but I fail to understand how anyone can say with any certainty that the man in the video is the shooter. All you can tell from the blurry video is he is a middle aged or older man with possibly gray hair. That could be a million other people in the area and 50 million people in the country that fits that description.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 06:34:36 pm
Well, according to Pamela Geller, it was him at the anti-Trump protest. She added that Lockheed Martin had NASA contracts, which could explain the "NASA" shirt he's wearing.
Wasn't he with Lockheed (not Lockheed Martin) for only 3 years in the 80s?
Pamela Geller isn't what I'd consider a great source.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 06:35:02 pm
Based on the pictures I've seen, the one window angle may have been somewhat obstructed by the large concert screen. The corner window didn't seem to be as much. Also, the crowd would most likely move directly away from the stage, into his second field of fire.
Those days he spent in the room prior to last night would have given him ample time to see the ingress and egress patters of the crowds when the daily concerts were over so as to better know which way the people would head once the gunfire began.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 06:35:52 pm
Already at least one news agency said this shooting mimicked the 1966 UT tower shooting in which Charles Whitman gunned down dozens, killing many. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-recalls-similar-slaughter-texas-clock-tower-shooting.html
No one complained on the police taking him out with one officer unloading his revolver and another with a shotgun.
And it was a civilian with a rifle from the CMP that went up the tower, too, and drew the gunman's attention, saving a cop from getting ambushed, IIRC.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 06:36:12 pm
515 injured, that's one heckuva high toll also. Over half a thousand.
Indeed. Of course, the alphabet networks are proclaiming this as the worst mass shooting tragedy ever in the US. Don't mind that except that some of these news readers almost sound gleeful when they say it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 06:37:32 pm
Those days he spent in the room prior to last night would have given him ample time to see the ingress and egress patters of the crowds when the daily concerts were over so as to better know which way the people would head once the gunfire began.
Agreed. I speculated the same a few posts above, #387.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 06:37:45 pm
I hope that at the last minute, he repented and asked for forgiveness by grace.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 06:38:49 pm
From a friend of mine that lives in Vegas:
Quote
One of the Facebook "I'm safe" pages has all kinds of Vegas residents offering shelter & rides as many could not return to their hotel or have family in hospitals now.
I sure hope that gets reported on the news. Too many times the individual acts of human kindness and decency never get covered.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 06:39:45 pm
Indeed. Of course, the alphabet networks are proclaiming this as the worst mass shooting tragedy ever in the US. Don't mind that except that some of these news readers almost sound gleeful when they say it.
Which it wasn't. The Colfax Massacre was, but I guess the media doesn't count it because the victims were all African Americans.
Also, let's not forget Wounded Knee.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 06:42:25 pm
Already at least one news agency said this shooting mimicked the 1966 UT tower shooting in which Charles Whitman gunned down dozens, killing many. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-recalls-similar-slaughter-texas-clock-tower-shooting.html
No one complained on the police taking him out with one officer unloading his revolver and another with a shotgun.
Something that is not often discussed in the UT shooting incident was the fact students had rifles in their vehicles and were shooting back. That kept Whitman occupied, under cover, and unable to shoot more people.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 06:44:28 pm
Already at least one news agency said this shooting mimicked the 1966 UT tower shooting in which Charles Whitman gunned down dozens, killing many. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/las-vegas-massacre-recalls-similar-slaughter-texas-clock-tower-shooting.html
No one complained on the police taking him out with one officer unloading his revolver and another with a shotgun.
I sure hope that gets reported on the news. Too many times the individual acts of human kindness and decency never get covered.
Some of these stories are being reported. Saw one interview of a man and woman who put some of the injured into the back of their pickup truck and sped them to the hospital. Other motorists took in those fleeing the venue. And there are reports of some military using their bodies to shield some of the concertgoers.
There are still some good people out there.
Title: Re: President Trump's Remarks On Shooting in Nevada: Oct 2, 2017
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 02, 2017, 06:46:07 pm
Well done Mr. President.
Now if someone can keep if off Twitter for at least a few days.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 06:47:35 pm
I just find all the speculation that this was just some hopped up liberal at this point as irresponsible as MSNBC saying this was a Tea Party member or right wing gun nut. We just don't know.
Also, no offense, but I fail to understand how anyone can say with any certainty that the man in the video is the shooter. All you can tell from the blurry video is he is a middle aged or older man with possibly gray hair. That could be a million other people in the area and 50 million people in the country that fits that description.
I only said that it looks like him to me and there are probably ways to prove whether or not it was him.
I'm just an individual with an opinion.
The opinions you need to be concerned about are the media opinions that this was okay because country music fans are mainly Republicans.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: corbe on October 02, 2017, 07:23:46 pm
Despairingly, I have followed this here since I woke up this morning, It breaks my heart.
I have a bad feeling about this and where it will end up politically.
Those aren't muzzle flashes. Too small. Probably a reflection of a flashing light or the big screen/sign in front of the building. That's also facing the wrong direction. Also, there weren't broken out windows down that low to shoot from.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Emjay on October 02, 2017, 07:45:03 pm
That is not muzzle flash. That's a reflection of a siren or something.
Remove the tinfoil. There was no one on the grassy knoll.
We're all wearing tinfoil right now and speculation is everywhere.
And there were a few people on the grassy knoll so let's not fight among ourselves right now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: 240B on October 02, 2017, 07:49:10 pm
When is some Christian group going to open up on a Muslim group, and slaughter them by the dozens.
Oh wait! I know the answer. NEVER. Because Christians don't do that. That kind of behavior is reserved for 'the religion of peace' and Leftist fanatics.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 07:49:17 pm
Sheriff's office says maids have been in and out of the room...didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.
If it were me...it would all stay hidden in my car in the parking garage until I was ready to execute.
Also, he very well could have kept everything broken down in suitcases in the closet in the room. The maids wouldn't have had any reason to open them and see what he really had packed in them.
You can fit a lot in a guitar case. Especially broken down or with a collapsible/folding stock. A bullpup would take even less room. Reload times (gaps between shots) and number of rounds fired between those gaps suggest awkward reloads (drum mags as opposed to conventional).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 07:50:00 pm
72 minute rampage is one of the headlines at drudgereport; in case, anyone wondered about the time frame, I certainly did. Especially when people were saying, why did it take so long to get the guy. I had not heard how long this lasted.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 07:51:04 pm
When is some Christian group going to open up on a Muslim group, and slaughter them by the dozens.
Oh wait! I know the answer. NEVER. Because Christians don't do that. That kind of behavior is reserved for 'the religion of peace' and Leftist fanatics.
72 minute rampage is one of the headlines at drudgereport; in case, anyone wondered about the time frame, I certainly did. Especially when people were saying, why did it take so long to get the guy. I had not heard how long this lasted.
damn..that was a long time...I am surprised more people weren't killed....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 07:58:57 pm
damn..that was a long time...I am surprised more people weren't killed....
Only so many targets. I'll bet that most of the casualties occurred in the first 5 minutes or so. Not that it is all that important when they occurred.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 02, 2017, 08:02:23 pm
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/father-of-suspected-shooter-in-las-vegas-was-on-fbis-most-wanted-list/article/2636284 Father of suspected shooter in Las Vegas was on FBI's Most Wanted list
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 08:02:35 pm
damn..that was a long time...I am surprised more people weren't killed....
72 minutes .... not only am I surprised more people weren't killed..... I don't understand how/why no security anywhere located him and ended this sooner.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 08:05:47 pm
Only so many targets. I'll bet that most of the casualties occurred in the first 5 minutes or so. Not that it is all that important when they occurred.
He was shooting fish in a barrel.
I wonder what greeted him on the other side.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 08:08:15 pm
damn..that was a long time...I am surprised more people weren't killed....
They had to go through the hotel floor by floor in the general location of where the gunfire was coming from. In these situations it takes a long time to search and clear the floors. If it hadn't been for the smoke detector going off it would have taken them longer to pinpoint the room.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 08:09:41 pm
Uuuugh, and here they come. The Infowhores/4chan types are already saying it was a false flag.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 08:10:31 pm
They had to go through the hotel floor by floor in the general location of where the gunfire was coming from. In these situations it takes a long time to search and clear the floors. If it hadn't been for the smoke detector going off it would have taken them longer to pinpoint the room.
@txradioguy I haven't heard they went floor by floor. I heard they showed up at the hotel and were told the fire alarm was going off in that room.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 02, 2017, 08:10:54 pm
They had to go through the hotel floor by floor in the general location of where the gunfire was coming from. In these situations it takes a long time to search and clear the floors. If it hadn't been for the smoke detector going off it would have taken them longer to pinpoint the room.
Seems like it would have been faster and easier to put a floodlite on the building and see which windows were blown out to determine which room he was in. Then again, there had to already be plenty of light in the area. :shrug:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on October 02, 2017, 08:12:42 pm
@txradioguy I haven't heard they went floor by floor. I heard they showed up at the hotel and were told the fire alarm was going off in that room.
Ahhh ok...it was speculation on my part on how they would do it if they weren't sure where the shooter was. Gotta remember the cops don't always do it like the military would clear a building.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 08:13:55 pm
Seriously, I'm not much on anything 'big government' but I'm almost about ready to support putting Thorazine in the water supply. (just kidding, I know someone would make that a conspiracy if I didn't put this disclaimer)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 08:14:07 pm
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/father-of-suspected-shooter-in-las-vegas-was-on-fbis-most-wanted-list/article/2636284 Father of suspected shooter in Las Vegas was on FBI's Most Wanted list
Quote
He was also diagnosed as "psychopathic" and had "carried firearms in commission of bank robberies
But, then on the side, it says "bullets rained down for 10 minutes", that sounds more like it.
I'm not sure if Drudge has crossed his wires up or what.
The alphabet networks this morning said the shooting went on for 4 and a half minutes. But it was also said there were pauses - perhaps to reload or switch to another weapon?
Still lots of conflicting info out there. Probably won't know the whole story for some time -- if ever.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 08:21:33 pm
Cavuto interviewed a witness and said the shooting lasted 10 to 12 mins...
Simple explanation is simply that some are reporting how long the actual shooting lasted, others are reporting how long from when it started until the police declared it all clear. (ie, how long shots were heard versus how long until it was determined there was no longer a danger).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 08:53:33 pm
@txradioguy Anyone with training would have used bursts. They'll probably find a lot of bullets impacted well beyond the concert area as his barrel rose. still he didn't have to be very accurate. The number of wounded indicate he was able to control the weapon. maybe he had it strapped down.
Hard to believe someone didn't pick up a clue he was going to do this.
His target was a rectangle below. Aim lower left corner, pull trigger. Weapon goes up and right.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 02, 2017, 08:55:01 pm
I've heard conflicting reports that this guy was in a bunch of anti-Trump groups, is that true?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 02, 2017, 08:55:25 pm
Indeed. The Liberals have forgotten that there are times in life where they need to STFU with the political drumbeat and act like decent human beings.
But right now that seems like a bar too high for them to reach.
I'm just wishing that they would someday let the FACT that guns are inanimate objects which cannot do a damned thing by themselves! soak into their thick skulls!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 08:57:50 pm
I'm just wishing that they would someday let the FACT that guns are inanimate objects which cannot do a damned thing by themselves! soak into their thick skulls!
That will never happen. They have to make them living breathing evil animate objects in order to push their gun grabbing agenda.
I've got 6 guns in my house right now in various locations and at no time have I ever gotten up in the middle of the night and found them wandering the house on their own looking for a target.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 08:58:24 pm
I've heard conflicting reports that this guy was in a bunch of anti-Trump groups, is that true?
I haven't seen anything official on that. However, there was a name falsely reported this morning that was in a lot of anti-Trump groups, but it wasn't the shooter. It was the ex-husband of someone who was married to a woman with a similar name as the shooter's girlfriend.
Not even a true 6 degree of separation, just started by internet sleuths digging up the wrong person.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: LadyLiberty on October 02, 2017, 08:58:48 pm
AP has tweeted that his brother says that he was a multi-millionaire real estate investor. ???
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 08:59:41 pm
Maybe it was 72 minuets between commencement of fire and when the shooter assumed room temperature?
More than likely time from the shooting started until the all clear was called. Even though they had one shooter at room temp they had to make sure there weren't more.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 09:18:20 pm
I've got 6 guns in my house right now in various locations and at no time have I ever gotten up in the middle of the night and found them wandering the house on their own looking for a target.
Well, I did see two attack Marylin Manson this weekend.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 02, 2017, 09:20:43 pm
Maybe it was 72 minutes between commencement of fire and when the shooter assumed room temperature?
Quite possible. The North Hollywood bank robbery incident lasted 44 mins as a running shootout, in daylight, with identified suspects. Factor nighttime, confusion, assessment, and positioning - that could take a lot of time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 02, 2017, 09:25:42 pm
The story that John Rich just relayed on Fox News was that an off duty policeman from Minnesota was in the bar Rich owns just down from the Mandalay while the shooting was going on...showed his badge and said "this is awkward but for the first time in my life I don't have my gun on me are you armed?"
Rich replied that he was...and showed the cop his permit.
The cop then proceeded to ask Rich if he could use his gun to secure the front of the bar.
Rich handed it over and said the cop was there for a couple hours providing security at the entrance to the bar until the all clear was given.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 02, 2017, 09:50:19 pm
The story that John Rich just relayed on Fox News was that an off duty policeman from Minnesota was in the bar Rich owns just down from the Mandalay while the shooting was going on...showed his badge and said "this is awkward but for the first time in my life I don't have my gun on me are you armed?"
Rich replied that he was...and showed the cop his permit.
The cop then proceeded to ask Rich if he could use his gun to secure the front of the bar.
Rich handed it over and said the cop was there for a couple hours providing security at the entrance to the bar until the all clear was given.
Good story.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 09:55:09 pm
I've heard conflicting reports that this guy was in a bunch of anti-Trump groups, is that true?
There is a video going around of an anti-Trump rally and one guy in the video is identified by the narrator as the Vegas shooter. However, the narrator of the video puts up what has been identified as a real photo of the shooter alongside a closeup of the guy in the video, and while it might look like the same guy, it's really not easy to tell. The narrator himself says later he isn't sure it's the same guy.
Sort of like that photo of two guys with Lee Harvey Oswald and some guy on Infowars claimed one of the men was Ted Cruz's father. No real proof in either case.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 10:03:15 pm
On another board, people were saying that a poorly done conversion will result in the "variable ROF" noted by some. Is that true?
They're generally unreliable and can be dangerous to the user. The semi-auto components aren't rated for the heat and stress generated. Could be the reason why there were multiple weapons and pauses.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 10:06:44 pm
Kevin Spacey's character in Seven summed it up quite well when he said, 'It's more comfortable for you to label me insane.'
People, in general, have a hard time accepting someone with rational and clear thinking could do such a thing. Mostly, it's due to the fact we view things from our own perspective and cannot imagine ourselves doing the same, unless we were mentally ill.
Not really.
Somehow, doing this 'made sense' to the shooter.
Too much planning and forethought and loiter time beforehand for an impulse act.
Absence of a viable exit and escape strategy indicates either poor planning, failure to account for some factor (like smoke alarms pinpointing his location), poor execution, or the absence of desire to escape. Maybe he was overwhelmed with a 'sense of power' and broke with a plan which could have allowed him to leave by continuing to shoot past the point where he could escape. (Note: many shooters suicide or suicide by cop).
Now, the mental framework within this 'made sense' to the shooter isn't what we'd consider normal, and ranges in possibility from a personal grudge against some one/entity taken out on a crowded venue to some religious motivation to seeing things and listening to the voices in his head, or perhaps an act of desperation from someone who felt they had nothing to lose.
There is a possibility of a blackmail attempt that had its bluff called, only it wasn't a bluff, but lost in what might be ordinary levels of threat traffic--the 'give me a million by midnight or something bad will happen' bit.
Discerning motive, and this seems like the act of someone who has nothing to lose, something desperate, although the person appears to be one of ample means. That appearance can be deceiving, and loss of those means lead to desperation. Whatever the case, we have insufficient data. Without knowing more about the shooter's politics, religious standpoint, personal economics, associations, medical pathology, and other factors, the motive is impossible to discern, and whether that motive was predicated upon a specific set of delusional beliefs or cult behaviour cannot be assessed..
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 10:07:44 pm
They're generally unreliable and can be dangerous to the user. The semi-auto components aren't rated for the heat and stress generated. Could be the reason why there were multiple weapons and pauses.
I think the shooter was using drum magazines at the start and those are a more awkward reload than the standard double stack mags.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 10:09:01 pm
Quote
Las Vegas shooting: 'YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE' – SHOCK WARNING 45 minutes before attack
...
One woman, who was at the Route 91 music event, claimed an unidentified woman had told other concert-goers they were “all going to die” after pushing her way to the front of the venue.
Las Vegas shooting: Witness claims a woman told crowd "everyone is going to die"
The witness, 21, told local news: “She had been messing with a lady in front of her and telling her she was going to die, that we were all going to die.
“They escorted her out to make her stop messing around with all the other people, but none of us knew it was going to be serious.”
Continued at: http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861252/Las-Vegas-shooting-latest-news-Mandalay-Bay-Route-91-Marilou-Danley
I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the thread but I do think it's probably meaningless, things happen and perhaps just this woman is saying this. I thought it might be worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 10:10:03 pm
They're generally unreliable and can be dangerous to the user. The semi-auto components aren't rated for the heat and stress generated. Could be the reason why there were multiple weapons and pauses.
Was it variations in the cyclic ROF between pauses (explainable by different weapons), or within the same burst (sorry...haven't heard the audio/video of this...just going by what I read)?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 02, 2017, 10:12:51 pm
I've heard conflicting reports that this guy was in a bunch of anti-Trump groups, is that true?
Not sure about the shooter. The husband of the woman who was a person of interest and supposedly was accompanying the shooter appears to be from a facebook profile posted on a site last night. However, any connection between him and the shooter is questionable unless established by other means. Even her relationship to/with the shooter has been questioned.
In other words, we have no evidence to that effect.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 10:15:02 pm
If this was a converted gun, it could have used a 'bump fire' stock system which makes a conventional platform imitate a full auto. You can pick these up for under $200 at Cabelas of off the internet. Legal to buy, installs in just a few minutes, no ATF stamps or anything like that. Usually they are just range toys and not very efficient. But it could be a low cost, easily accessible way he could have gone full auto (like) without spending $25K plus for a transferable class 3 or going into the black market.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 10:17:42 pm
Not sure about the shooter. The husband of the woman who was a person of interest and supposedly was accompanying the shooter appears to be from a facebook profile posted on a site last night. However, any connection between him and the shooter is questionable unless established by other means. Even her relationship to/with the shooter has been questioned.
In other words, we have no evidence to that effect.
The one I saw, it wasn't even the same woman's husband. The one they found was a much younger woman with the same (similar) name.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 10:18:16 pm
I'm not sure if this was mentioned in the thread but I do think it's probably meaningless, things happen and perhaps just this woman is saying this. I thought it might be worth mentioning.
One story early on said this woman was supposedly the shooter's lady friend, but she's not even in the country.
I think this was one of the fake stories that went around after the shooting -- such as there were bombs panted around Vegas, another shooter was seen, more shootings scheduled for later, etc. Some sick people delight in spreading false stories just to enhance the panic and confusion.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 10:19:21 pm
One story early on said this woman was supposedly the shooter's lady friend, but she's not even in the country.
I think this was one of the fake stories that went around after the shooting -- such as there were bombs panted around Vegas, another shooter was seen, more shootings scheduled for later, etc. Some sick people delight in spreading false stories just to enhance the panic and confusion.
You can't go ten feet in Vegas without some street preacher or crazy person in your face saying 'the end is near' or 'repent or die'.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:19:43 pm
If this was a converted gun, it could have used a 'bump fire' stock system which makes a conventional platform imitate a full auto. You can pick these up for under $200 at Cabelas of off the internet. Legal to buy, installs in just a few minutes, no ATF stamps or anything like that. Usually they are just range toys and not very efficient. But it could be a low cost, easily accessible way he could have gone full auto (like) without spending $25K plus for a transferable class 3 or going into the black market.
I don't think money was an issue for this guy. We should know whether the firearms were legal before too long. He could have easily flown his plane down to mexico and bought some.
With his money he might also have started a company and bought them through it. Not sure the legalities of doing this but maybe he got his FFL. All conjecture at this point.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 02, 2017, 10:22:03 pm
I don't think money was an issue for this guy. We should know whether the firearms were legal before too long. He could have easily flown his plane down to mexico and bought some.
With his money he might also have started a company and bought them through it. Not sure the legalities of doing this but maybe he got his FFL. All conjecture at this point.
Very true. There are also firearm trusts set up where the firearms are actually owned by a corporation of private members. This way, lets say you have 5-6 friends with too much money, who want a couple of class 3s to take out on range day, they are purchased through the trust but accessible to all the members. I won't confirm or deny my familiarity with these. ;) (but it is all totally legal)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:23:39 pm
Was it variations in the cyclic ROF between pauses (explainable by different weapons), or within the same burst (sorry...haven't heard the audio/video of this...just going by what I read)?
@Suppressed Its pretty hard to say what caused the pauses but my guess is he simply stopped pulling the trigger. All of the binary trigger/bump stock type tools work to a degree but are difficult to use. We'd probably hear more inconsistencies in the firing if he were using one of those. Just my opinion from having fired full auto weapons and semi-auto with the trigger devices. IMO the trigger devices are dangerous toys which the ATF will probably make illegal eventually.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 02, 2017, 10:24:51 pm
Very true. There are also firearm trusts set up where the firearms are actually owned by a corporation of private members. This way, lets say you have 5-6 friends with too much money, who want a couple of class 3s to take out on range day, they are purchased through the trust but accessible to all the members. I won't confirm or deny my familiarity with these. ;) (but it is all totally legal)
I need to find a lawyer. i already have a corporation and would love to buy a new manufacture Class III firearm or 10.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 10:25:37 pm
You can't go ten feet in Vegas without some street preacher or crazy person in your face saying 'the end is near' or 'repent or die'.
Didn't see too many street preachers when I was there -- just plenty of mostly Hispanic people passing out cards advertising "escorts" and strippers. Those vendors just about tripped people trying to shove their cr@p in their faces.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 02, 2017, 10:27:35 pm
Jonesboro, Ark Aurora Virginia Tech Northern Illinois University Las Vegas
What was the motive in these killings?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 10:28:56 pm
The gun shops where he purchased some of the weapons have been located and interviewed. He passed background checks. Semi-auto and shotguns. Probably not the guns used though.
Was it variations in the cyclic ROF between pauses (explainable by different weapons), or within the same burst (sorry...haven't heard the audio/video of this...just going by what I read)?
You can hear the audio on some of the videos from early in the development of the story. Steady fire for 50+ rounds (approx. 10 seconds) then a similar delay until fire resumes. The first couple of bursts (not really the right term, because I think the shooter just fired until the mag ran dry) were sustained, about the same pitch and volume. Going by that, and that the shooting started as the song did, the shooter went through one mag, reloaded, and started on the second before the people holding the phone realized there was a threat. My estimate is that the shooter had fired 100 rounds into the crowd before people started running for cover and getting down to reduce their target profile in the open. By the end of the third magazine, you can hear bullets striking in the vicinity of the people with the phone, which might mean the shooter started firing at the front of the crowd (nearer the stage) and let the muzzle climb sweep the crowd. By then the band had stopped playing, and I am sure people were down. http://youtu.be/9gVf11wSzPY (http://youtu.be/9gVf11wSzPY) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quNwKZ6JrH0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quNwKZ6JrH0) According to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwSJiAwoMpY) By the end of the video above, that AK (if it was an AK-47) should have been smoking hot, and on the verge of cooking off. Switching weapons would prevent that or failure of the firearm, which would imply that the shooter knew enough to not excessively overheat the weapons, whether that was so he could shoot more people or because he somehow anticipated that he might escape. My guess is that with that many weapons, he intended to shoot longer or anticipated having one or more an accomplices. If there are any indications of the latter, LVPD may be keeping quiet in order to reduce panic and have time to find/track them. Another high profile incident seems unlikely.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 10:29:55 pm
Too much planning and forethought and loiter time beforehand for an impulse act.
Absence of a viable exit and escape strategy indicates either poor planning, failure to account for some factor (like smoke alarms pinpointing his location), poor execution, or the absence of desire to escape. Maybe he was overwhelmed with a 'sense of power' and broke with a plan which could have allowed him to leave by continuing to shoot past the point where he could escape. (Note: many shooters suicide or suicide by cop).
Now, the mental framework within this 'made sense' to the shooter isn't what we'd consider normal, and ranges in possibility from a personal grudge against some one/entity taken out on a crowded venue to some religious motivation to seeing things and listening to the voices in his head, or perhaps an act of desperation from someone who felt they had nothing to lose.
There is a possibility of a blackmail attempt that had its bluff called, only it wasn't a bluff, but lost in what might be ordinary levels of threat traffic--the 'give me a million by midnight or something bad will happen' bit.
Discerning motive, and this seems like the act of someone who has nothing to lose, something desperate, although the person appears to be one of ample means. That appearance can be deceiving, and loss of those means lead to desperation. Whatever the case, we have insufficient data. Without knowing more about the shooter's politics, religious standpoint, personal economics, associations, medical pathology, and other factors, the motive is impossible to discern, and whether that motive was predicated upon a specific set of delusional beliefs or cult behaviour cannot be assessed..
Except I was responding specifically to a post as to why some place evil and insanity in the same category. So - yes, really.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 02, 2017, 10:31:00 pm
Does that allow you to purchase new manufacture or just the pre-1986 ones made out of solid gold.
Just pre 86 eligible for transfer that already has the stamp. It also is a great way to protect and acquire C&R firearms (curio and relic, aka antiques and vintage military (WWII and prior)).
Post 86 is virtually impossible to do legally.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 02, 2017, 10:39:12 pm
per presser 16 guns in hotel room, 18 at Mesquite home, explosives found in his car and in Mesquite, going to breach North Nevada home soon. Also "electronic devices" found- no details.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 02, 2017, 10:40:35 pm
Perp still alive when room breached- he shot an officer in the leg, and then was killed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: aligncare on October 02, 2017, 10:41:45 pm
I avoided videos of the massacre (I never want to look), but this evening I started the car and on the radio were the sounds of screams, machine gun fire, chaos. And I listened. Maybe two or three minutes I was frozen listening to the sound of human terror. It was enough, I turned it off.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 10:45:05 pm
Except I was responding specifically to a post as to why some place evil and insanity in the same category. So - yes, really.
Sorry, I misinterpreted you. Evil can be completely rational, its objectives are just diametrically different from what we accept as 'good', but it can set and pursue those objectives with completely rational diabolical sanity. Neither Al Capone nor Ochoa were insane, but they were diabolical; they were evil by our standards--just not necessarily by theirs. Even the Unabomber had a rational framework for his actions, as wrong as it was. .
On the other hand, guys like Hinkley, out to get a date with Jodie Foster by shooting Ronald Reagan, now that's nuts.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jmyrlefuller on October 02, 2017, 10:45:55 pm
per presser 16 guns in hotel room, 18 at Mesquite home, explosives found in his car and in Mesquite, going to breach North Nevada home soon. Also "electronic devices" found- no details.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/02/21/44F8A3E900000578-4941508-image-m-119_1506974842535.jpg) Image from this article in the Daily Mail:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4941508/First-victims-Las-Vegas-shooting-pictured.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4941508/First-victims-Las-Vegas-shooting-pictured.html)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 10:54:40 pm
Perp still alive when room breached- he shot an officer in the leg, and then was killed.
Per fox it was a security guard that he shot and not a cop.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 11:11:06 pm
Aw Geez! Now ABC is rehashing Obama's responses to prior mass killings. The Obama worship at the networks is sickening. All the idiot ever did after these shootings was make the case for more gun control. No compassion for the dead and injured, no encouragement for a shocked nation. Just politics, politics, politics.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 02, 2017, 11:12:21 pm
Aw Geez! Now ABC is rehashing Obama's responses to prior mass killings. The Obama worship at the networks is sickening. All the idiot ever did after these shootings was make the case for more gun control. No compassion for the dead and injured, no encouragement for a shocked nation. Just politics, politics, politics.
That's an Alinskyite for you. Never let a crisis go to waste.
People aren't people to them, just numbers, pawns, and poster children.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 02, 2017, 11:19:10 pm
On the other hand, guys like Hinkley, out to get a date with Jodie Foster by shooting Ronald Reagan, now that's nuts.
No more nuts, than Hinkley now set free.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 02, 2017, 11:19:34 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/EFWlwOy.jpg)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 02, 2017, 11:19:51 pm
The shooter owned two planes, worked as an apartment manager at one point, worked as an auditor at Lockheed. I heard someone say he made a lot in real estate but I haven't seen that confirmed. It sure makes one wonder.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 11:22:08 pm
Aw Geez! Now ABC is rehashing Obama's responses to prior mass killings. The Obama worship at the networks is sickening. All the idiot ever did after these shootings was make the case for more gun control. No compassion for the dead and injured, no encouragement for a shocked nation. Just politics, politics, politics.
Aw Geez! Now ABC is rehashing Obama's responses to prior mass killings. The Obama worship at the networks is sickening. All the idiot ever did after these shootings was make the case for more gun control. No compassion for the dead and injured, no encouragement for a shocked nation. Just politics, politics, politics.
The push over the past decade for curbing gun ownership, installing universal healthcare, and relaxing drug laws has always struck me as particularly insidious. I'm not a grassy knoller, but a sedated, unarmed populous, with your life literally in the government's hands? That's a terrible combination, inviting control and oppression.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 02, 2017, 11:29:55 pm
The push over the past decade for curbing gun ownership, installing universal healthcare, and relaxing drug laws has always struck me as particularly insidious. I'm not a grassy knoller, but a sedated, unarmed populous, with your life literally in the government's hands? That's a terrible combination, inviting control and oppression.
I wrote an essay in AP English over 40 years ago that postulated a future between Brave New World and 1984, with the worst of both. Well, we're here.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 02, 2017, 11:35:56 pm
Those days he spent in the room prior to last night would have given him ample time to see the ingress and egress patters of the crowds when the daily concerts were over so as to better know which way the people would head once the gunfire began.
That should be known from the video camera everywhere.
Las Vegas likely has more than almost anywhere else.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 03, 2017, 12:07:51 am
Something that is not often discussed in the UT shooting incident was the fact students had rifles in their vehicles and were shooting back. That kept Whitman occupied, under cover, and unable to shoot more people.
I grew up in Austin and was there when the shooting occurred. Charles Whitman lived about 6 blocks away from our house.
I never heard about that one.
The guy was a phenomenal marksman. A kid at the high school I attended was shot in the leg while riding a bicycle on Guadalupe, about 2 blocks away from the UT Tower.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 03, 2017, 12:09:09 am
The push over the past decade for curbing gun ownership, installing universal healthcare, and relaxing drug laws has always struck me as particularly insidious. I'm not a grassy knoller, but a sedated, unarmed populous, with your life literally in the government's hands? That's a terrible combination, inviting control and oppression.
For people who are completely sick of that shit it is a target rich environment.
And since I am so late to the thread and ain't gonna read all of it....
HAIL SATAN!!!!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 03, 2017, 12:09:10 am
I grew up in Austin and was there when the shooting occurred. Charles Whitman lived about 6 blocks away from our house.
I never heard about that one.
The guy was a phenomenal marksman. A kid at the high school I attended was shot in the leg while riding a bicycle on Guadalupe, about 2 blocks away from the UT Tower.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 03, 2017, 12:16:46 am
What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.
Except for the fact gone effing crazy is the law of the land.
Brain dead populace with no moral compass. Unless you count the one installed on your Smart Phone. I saw one of those. It kept saying turn left. Turn left. Turn left.
Your glorious leaders have manipulated and ginned up such division and hatred in this country its total demise is imminent.
HAIL SATAN!!!!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 12:18:46 am
Except for the fact gone effing crazy is the law of the land.
Brain dead populace with no moral compass. Unless you count the one installed on your Smart Phone. I saw one of those. It kept saying turn left. Turn left. Turn left.
Your glorious leaders have manipulated and ginned up such division and hatred in this country its total demise is imminent.
HAIL SATAN!!!!
Dude...seriously...not the time for your stupid sh*t.
You may think you're funny right now...no one else is laughing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: EasyAce on October 03, 2017, 12:19:42 am
Alex Jones on this. Claims it's conspiracy by ISIS, etc. and assorted other actors.
@Rivergirl Someone needs to remind Mr. Jones that ISIS would claim retroactive credit for the St. Valentine's Day Massacre if they could find enough like him to listen and believe.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 12:19:50 am
Fred.....have a drink or take a Xanax – maybe try both.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 12:20:37 am
Alex Jones on this. Claims it's conspiracy by ISIS, etc. and assorted other actors.
If one listens to Alex Jones enough, one has to accept that there is an industry out there creating these false flags and events larger than most Fortune 10 companies, more competent than the Government on its best day could imagine, more secret than KFC's recipe, and more efficient than Amazon's shipping.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 03, 2017, 12:20:40 am
Aw Geez! Now ABC is rehashing Obama's responses to prior mass killings. The Obama worship at the networks is sickening. All the idiot ever did after these shootings was make the case for more gun control. No compassion for the dead and injured, no encouragement for a shocked nation. Just politics, politics, politics.
The most important mass killing during his watch was the Fort Hood massacre, which he most certainly did not handle well. The perp remains alive.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 03, 2017, 12:24:22 am
Bet there was a hail of bullets directed his way from multiple guns.
Too bad he must have died quickly instead of painfully.
I'm glad they caught him in the act while still alive. That greatly eliminates (reality based logic anyway) many possible conspiracy theories. Otherwise just finding a dead body in the room leaves lots of space for other possibilities.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 03, 2017, 12:32:33 am
Sorry I don't look at it from the same position of insanity that you do.
Nothing remotely appropriate about your behavior in this thread.
While his delivery may leave a lot to be desired.... he may have a point. Has anyone noticed how 'south' things have gone since that last eclipse? The timeline... (approximately from recollection)...
Eclipse 8/21/17 Hurricane Harvey 8/26/17 Chiapas Mex Earthquake 8.1 9/7/17 Hurricane Irma 9/11/17 Hurricane Maria 9/20/17 N. Korea nuke test 9/23/17 Oaxaca Mex Earthquake 9/23/17 Las Vegas shooter 10/1/17
Talk about a "bad moon risin".....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 03, 2017, 12:33:16 am
While his delivery may leave a lot to be desired.... he may have a point. Has anyone noticed how 'south' things have gone since that last eclipse? The timeline... (approximately from recollection)...
Eclipse 8/21/17 Hurricane Harvey 8/26/17 Chiapas Mex Earthquake 8.1 9/7/17 Hurricane Irma 9/11/17 Hurricane Maria 9/20/17 N. Korea nuke test 9/23/17 Oaxaca Mex Earthquake 9/23/17 Las Vegas shooter 10/1/17
Talk about a "bad moon risin".....
I'm worried about a major earthquake in California to top it all off... Just getting paranoid I guess...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: XenaLee on October 03, 2017, 12:40:03 am
I'm worried about a major earthquake in California to top it all off... Just getting paranoid I guess...
I'm right there with ya (paranoid), apparently. Those lines that form an irregular "ring" seem to be extremely active lately. It's making me nervous and I don't even live on the west coast.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Polly Ticks on October 03, 2017, 12:40:13 am
I find it hard to look at the photos of the victims, but I always feel compelled to do so. They matter, so I will look at their faces and pray for their loved ones.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 03, 2017, 12:48:03 am
I find it hard to look at the photos of the victims, but I always feel compelled to do so. They matter, so I will look at their faces and pray for their loved ones.
I too feel obligated to look at their faces to remember them. That their lives were more than just a statistic in the news. My brother in law's best friend's wife died last night at this event.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: chae on October 03, 2017, 12:48:50 am
Honestly, I'm expecting Yellowstone to blow any day now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 03, 2017, 12:53:05 am
I was watching a show over the weekend that the outer planets are exhibiting higher luminescence. Which means that the entire solar system is heating up. So global warming is (solar) system-wide.
My point with this shooting is it should come as no surprise. And I care on a level that is deeper than overt dismay. I've studied this. Whatever the shooter's final straw was may never be known. But there are a lot of people in this country, particularly aging white men who are being increasingly disenfranchised.
There has been a concerted effort over the last, at least two decades, to divide, to tribalize, our society. I have tried to tell you here and there that there is a better way. And it starts with each one of you.
The chickens are coming home to roost. I will make a prediction, hopefully wrong, that there will be instances of martial law called for in test cases coming soon.
What EDPC said about a sedated, obliviated, oppressed citizenry is here.
I will tell you a little secret. I get up at 2:30-3:a.m. because I can't stand the PTSD nightmares. You know the SOURCE? I was compliant once. I believed in the system ONCE. Never again.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 03, 2017, 01:02:30 am
Honestly, I'm expecting Yellowstone to blow any day now.
@chae very unlikely Yellow Stone will blow (super eruption) any time soon. Signs of an eminent eruption are just not there. However @DB earthquake is over due and the Mexican quakes make a Cali quake more likely.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 03, 2017, 01:05:32 am
@chae very unlikely Yellow Stone will blow (super eruption) any time soon. Signs of an eminent eruption are just not there. However @DB earthquake is over due and the Mexican quakes make a Cali quake more likely.
Yep...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 03, 2017, 01:07:14 am
I was watching a show over the weekend that the outer planets are exhibiting higher luminescence. Which means that the entire solar system is heating up. So global warming is (solar) system-wide.
My point with this shooting is it should come as no surprise. And I care on a level that is deeper than overt dismay. I've studied this. Whatever the shooter's final straw was may never be known. But there are a lot of people in this country, particularly aging white men who are being increasingly disenfranchised.
There has been a concerted effort over the last, at least two decades, to divide, to tribalize, our society. I have tried to tell you here and there that there is a better way. And it starts with each one of you.
The chickens are coming home to roost. I will make a prediction, hopefully wrong, that there will be instances of martial law called for in test cases coming soon.
What EDPC said about a sedated, obliviated, oppressed citizenry is here.
I will tell you a little secret. I get up at 2:30-3:a.m. because I can't stand the PTSD nightmares. You know the SOURCE? I was compliant once. I believed in the system ONCE. Never again.
Hang in there, Fred! YOU are not alone! Not by a damned sight!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 01:10:35 am
@chae very unlikely Yellow Stone will blow (super eruption) any time soon. Signs of an eminent eruption are just not there. However @DB earthquake is over due and the Mexican quakes make a Cali quake more likely.
Don't forget New Madrid. I'm on the edge of its zone.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 03, 2017, 01:22:37 am
They don't like to point out bookstore manager Allen Crum's role of going up the tower with the police and being first out the door at the top with Officer Martinez. He fired a shot that distracted Whitman and allowed Officers Martinez and McCoy to come up on Whitman from the other side and get him. Martinez gave Crum credit for saving his life, as Whitman was ready to ambush Martinez until hearing the shot from the other direction.
Good article on it: The Armed Civilian Who Helped Stop UT’s Tower Sniper 50 Years Ago https://apps.texastribune.org/guns-on-campus/allen-crum-helped-stop-ut-tower-shooter-charles-whitman/
Quote
Crum turned toward the west, while Martinez headed north on the east side. In his report to police, Crum said he heard footsteps crunching on the chipped limestone on the west side of the deck. He fired a shot straight into the corner wall. But no one rounded the corner.
And even CBS Austin reported it...
Quote
Climbing three short flights of stairs they found the dead, dying and wounded.
"That's when Allen Crum said, "Are we playing for keeps?" recounted Martinez. “And I said, damn right we are."
The civilian then told Martinez, “Well, you’d better deputize me.”
Martinez did and by the time they reached the 30th floor, the men knew the parts they needed to play in this tragedy.
Quote
The pair split up, each going after Whitman from a different direction.
"Of course I was (crouched) down and when I looked around the corner I saw the sniper. He was sitting, aiming his rifle in that direction," said Martinez.
Martinez needed a distraction and he thinks his life was saved by what happened next.
"Allen Crum, a civilian, was over there with a rifle. He didn't know how to operate that rifle, so a round went off and it hit the wall," said Martinez.
It diverted Whitman's attention and gave Martinez a chance to strike.
Don't forget New Madrid. I'm on the edge of its zone.
I heard the next time that one lets loose the Mississippi could shift so much it will flow through Texas. The last earthquake on that fault from what I've read changed the course of the river to what we know it today.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: chae on October 03, 2017, 01:27:38 am
The gun shops where he purchased some of the weapons have been located and interviewed. He passed background checks. Semi-auto and shotguns. Probably not the guns used though.
While his delivery may leave a lot to be desired.... he may have a point. Has anyone noticed how 'south' things have gone since that last eclipse? The timeline... (approximately from recollection)...
Eclipse 8/21/17 Hurricane Harvey 8/26/17 Chiapas Mex Earthquake 8.1 9/7/17 Hurricane Irma 9/11/17 Hurricane Maria 9/20/17 N. Korea nuke test 9/23/17 Oaxaca Mex Earthquake 9/23/17 Las Vegas shooter 10/1/17
Talk about a "bad moon risin".....
The birth pangs are increasing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 03, 2017, 01:35:41 am
I was watching a show over the weekend that the outer planets are exhibiting higher luminescence. Which means that the entire solar system is heating up. So global warming is (solar) system-wide.
My point with this shooting is it should come as no surprise. And I care on a level that is deeper than overt dismay. I've studied this. Whatever the shooter's final straw was may never be known. But there are a lot of people in this country, particularly aging white men who are being increasingly disenfranchised.
There has been a concerted effort over the last, at least two decades, to divide, to tribalize, our society. I have tried to tell you here and there that there is a better way. And it starts with each one of you.
The chickens are coming home to roost. I will make a prediction, hopefully wrong, that there will be instances of martial law called for in test cases coming soon.
What EDPC said about a sedated, obliviated, oppressed citizenry is here.
I will tell you a little secret. I get up at 2:30-3:a.m. because I can't stand the PTSD nightmares. You know the SOURCE? I was compliant once. I believed in the system ONCE. Never again.
I wouldn't be surprised about your prediction about martial law.
BUT, please get help. I'm not being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 01:39:21 am
I just saw a clip from ABC News. The caption on the screen read "Trump's Challenge."
They were showing Obama singing "Amazing Grace." I am not kidding.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: corbe on October 03, 2017, 01:44:15 am
Thanks @bigheadfred for taking the heat, again, She's usually instructing me to seek Psychiatric counseling.
Got Tom Petty You Tube on loop most the day, feeling really melancholy with all the events today.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 01:45:55 am
Trying to figure out where all these calls for more restrictive guns laws and blaming the NRA for mass murder were after the shooting in Antioch, Tennessee a couple weeks ago. Didn't hear a peep out of Hillary...no stupid tweets from ABC News reporters or execs at CBS. No hysterical hand wringing falsehoods about how America experiences "64 mass shootings a day". In fact the media and the usual gun grabbing suspects were mysteriously silent. Wonder why that is? Oh wait...that's right...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 03, 2017, 01:46:59 am
Trying to figure out where all these calls for more restrictive guns laws and blaming the NRA for mass murder were after the shooting in Antioch, Tennessee a couple weeks ago. Didn't hear a peep out of Hillary...no stupid tweets from ABC News reporters or execs at CBS. No hysterical hand wringing falsehoods about how America experiences "64 mass shootings a day". In fact the media and the usual gun grabbing suspects were mysteriously silent. Wonder why that is? Oh wait...that's right...
That's right. I didn't notice that until you mentioned it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:01:31 am
Live update happening now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:02:09 am
23 weapons recovered at Mandalay Bay...18 so far at his house.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:04:43 am
Todd R. Fasulo, Assistant Sheriff is the one at the podium for the LVMPD.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 02:06:59 am
23 weapons recovered at Mandalay Bay...18 so far at his house.
Just asking your opinion, and without taking the nature of this act into consideration so much, but would you take 23 weapons if you were operating alone?
I can see two shooting positions, two to 3 weapons at each, a pistol and a backup, puts me at eight weapons, tops. Then there is the question of different magazines for different weapons...and suddenly this whole thing seems a tad overcomplicated for a one man show.
Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:09:22 am
Just asking your opinion, and without taking the nature of this act into consideration so much, but would you take 23 weapons if you were operating alone?
I can see two shooting positions, two to 3 weapons at each, a pistol and a backup, puts me at eight weapons, tops. Then there is the question of different magazines for different weapons...and suddenly this whole thing seems a tad overcomplicated for a one man show.
Me personally? No. 3-4 at most to account for the rifles getting hot from the continuous firing. Rotate them let them cool. Two at each firing position. Shoot reload, lay that weapon down...move to the second firing position. Wash rinse repeat.
I'd have one sidearm for close quarters if and when the law enforcement people had me cornered.
But there's no way in hell I'd have 23 just for myself.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:15:21 am
Some idiot reporter just asked if Jason Aldean should have told people to duck and asked if by not saying anything before he ran off stage more lives were lost. *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 02:18:58 am
Some idiot reporter just asked if Jason Aldean should have told people to duck and asked if by not saying anything before he ran off stage more lives were lost.
Well – that's a no-win situation. If he had said duck, run, or take cover and then split, people would likely panic and stampede each other. Then, they would blame him for that. It would be drawing comparisons to the 1979 The Who concert in Cincinnati.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 03, 2017, 02:20:59 am
Smokin' Joe wrote: "Absence of a viable exit and escape strategy indicates either poor planning, failure to account for some factor (like smoke alarms pinpointing his location), poor execution, or the absence of desire to escape."
This guy had no intention of walking out of that room alive.
Although with all the obvious planning for his attack, it seems odd that he didn't "leave a manifesto" somewhere, a suicide note, something.
Perhaps he did, and the authorities have it, and are keeping quiet about its contents.
It's probably going to take another two-three days before "the wheat gets sorted from the chaff", before the facts come out and begin to line up.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:21:32 am
Well – that's a no-win situation. If he had said duck, run, or take cover and then split, people would likely panic and stampede each other. Then, they would blame him for that.
IIRC the crowd was already ducking down by the time he realized what was going on and hauled ass of the stage.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 03, 2017, 02:24:04 am
SWAT also conducting a search at a property the shooter owned in Reno as well as the one in Mesquite.
Assistant Sheriff seemed to indicate there was some kind of computer or media device in the hotel room...they are also going over hard drives seized in Mesquite.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 02:25:54 am
Although with all the obvious planning for his attack, it seems odd that he didn't "leave a manifesto" somewhere, a suicide note, something.
Perhaps he did, and the authorities have it, and are keeping quiet about its contents.
It's probably going to take another two-three days before "the wheat gets sorted from the chaff", before the facts come out and begin to line up.
Yes, generally, people who do things like this have either told people they had dark intentions or have documented it in some fashion. I'd be genuinely surprised if he did not have something on an electronic device or in a notebook in his house.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 02:26:38 am
IIRC the crowd was already ducking down by the time he realized what was going on and hauled ass of the stage.
The shooter was through the first magazine (assuming a drum mag) before the band quit playing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 03, 2017, 02:28:49 am
There's been mixed reports on whether he killed himself prior to the police breaching his room or after.
If it was before then no one actually saw him commit the crime and there are many possibilities at play. I sure hope it was after.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 02:40:09 am
For all those in entertainment, politics, and social media calling for US gun control, here's a list of mass shootings in places where gun laws are very strict or total.
That's a good way to end up with a bruise on your shoulder if you fire it that way.
Your ass, too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: montanajoe on October 03, 2017, 03:12:42 am
This guy may have been:
One of the 15% of the folks who view life in the USA today through the prism of the politics of the right and who was in the even smaller minority that desperately wants a spark for CW2. Attacking a country western concert in his mind would surely will be blamed on the left, would spark CW2... he would go out in glory.
One of the 15% of the folks who view life in the USA today through the prism of the politics of the left, one that desperately wants a spark for CW2. Attacking a country western concert in his mind would surely will be blamed on the left, igniting the right and would spark CW2... he would go out in glory.
One of the rest of the country acting in his own percieved self interest. I don't think he was acting from a political motivation. The guy was a nut case maybe, but it seems to me this shooter, a professional gambler, may have had a problem with the Mandalay Bay and the other MGM properties. I suspect the motivation was to do whatever he could to put them out of business....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 03, 2017, 03:45:06 am
That's a good way to end up with a bruise on your shoulder if you fire it that way.
@txradioguy Meet Col Martha McSally, standing in front of one her most important friends, AKA "Warthog." She is the current occupant of Gifford's former Congressional seat. I bet she's a better shot. This gal doesn't pose with weapons of war, she flies them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 03, 2017, 06:32:28 am
Regarding guns and killing people, the shooter had a pilots license and could have easily flown a plane into the same densely packed crowd and killed and maimed far more people. That's the reality of it all.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 07:28:01 am
Regarding guns and killing people, the shooter had a pilots license and could have easily flown a plane into the same densely packed crowd and killed and maimed far more people. That's the reality of it all.
Yeah, but then the Dems would be howling to ban.....guns. Tim McVeigh blew up a building in OK with a rental truck and fertilizer, and the Dems wanted to ban guns...
Same Song, Different Day.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 11:00:21 am
Some idiot reporter just asked if Jason Aldean should have told people to duck and asked if by not saying anything before he ran off stage more lives were lost. *****rollingeyes*****
Me neither. By then, people were already bugging out if they could, crouching or seeking cover, and helping the wounded to cover. Liberals looking for someone else to blame, again.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 11:31:11 am
Me neither. By then, people were already bugging out if they could, crouching or seeking cover, and helping the wounded to cover. Liberals looking for someone else to blame, again.
I doubt if some guy shouting from the stage would have made any difference in that panic situation. He's probably thanking God he wasn't taken out as an easy target.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 11:36:11 am
I doubt if some guy shouting from the stage would have made any difference in that panic situation. He's probably thanking God he wasn't taken out as an easy target.
Imho, the shooter was aiming at an area target, not individuals. This had none of the precision of a sniper attack, but the sledgehammer effect of a machine gun on a crowd. In a spy novel, that might cover for a sniper taking out a specific individual to make it look coincidental, but in real life, I think it just is what it is: one evil sonufabitch crapping on people who were having fun, in the worst way.
As cut and dried as this seems to be, I doubt anyone will run comparative ballistics on recovered bullets to see if they all came from weapons in the room.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 03, 2017, 11:36:39 am
I doubt if some guy shouting from the stage would have made any difference in that panic situation. He's probably thanking God he wasn't taken out as an easy target.
If he's not, he should be.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 11:44:30 am
Imho, the shooter was aiming at an area target, not individuals. This had none of the precision of a sniper attack, but the sledgehammer effect of a machine gun on a crowd. In a spy novel, that might cover for a sniper taking out a specific individual to make it look coincidental, but in real life, I think it just is what it is: one evil sonufabitch crapping on people who were having fun, in the worst way.
As cut and dried as this seems to be, I doubt anyone will run comparative ballistics on recovered bullets to see if they all came from weapons in the room.
Agree that he was just firing into the crowd to achieve maximum carnage. But I think a man standing onstage and illuminated by bright lights would have been an easy target. He was more exposed and vulnerable than anyone else.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 11:46:20 am
Absolutely. I think I would be lying facedown and thanking Him.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Rivergirl on October 03, 2017, 12:05:22 pm
Does that Jones' pals on FNC are about to go there as well. Bring ISIS to the table. Always seeking to defend the muslim ban in the USA. Sad, pathetic losers.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 03, 2017, 12:06:02 pm
I'm thinking now about what the economic impact upon Las Vegas will be. Tourism is THE industry there, and without tourism, the economy will be in the toilet.. Tourists who were in Vegas when this happened (but not necessarily at the show) were saying they were cutting their vacations short and heading home. One couple which had been married in Vegas over the weekend said they were headed to a beach in California for the remainder of their honeymoon. I would imagine that some tourists with plans to visit Vegas might be rethinking their vacations. People might be thinking the city is too dangerous.
On the other hand, if tourists decide to stay away, anyone brave enough to venture to Vegas might be able to take advantage of some deep discounts . Shortly before 9/11, a friend and I had made plans to head to Vegas that October. Although my friend was uneasy about flying, I convinced her to go and we had a wonderful time. We had already reserved a basic room at the Tropicana, but when we checked in, I asked the clerk what it would cost to upgrade. She gave us a much more luxurious room for the same price as the basic room we had reserved. Shows and meals were discounted. I budgeted a certain amount of money for the trip, and even after playing the slots, meals, shows, shopping and what not, I spent maybe half of what I had budgeted.
An incident like this could be a boon to travelers, but I believe it's going to hurt Vegas a lot.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 03, 2017, 12:06:32 pm
Agree that he was just firing into the crowd to achieve maximum carnage. But I think a man standing onstage and illuminated by bright lights would have been an easy target. He was more exposed and vulnerable than anyone else.
I don't think the shooter had a clear view of the stage front where the performers normally are. the shooter was behind, above and to the side of the stage. I also very much doubt that the shooter had much accuracy from that distance with a machine gun. He was simply spraying bullets towards the crowd.
I also think the singer had little idea what was happening like everyone else. Something was wrong and it was time to go. There was nothing he could say to change the situation short of possibly making it worse by telling everyone to run.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 12:10:08 pm
Agree that he was just firing into the crowd to achieve maximum carnage. But I think a man standing onstage and illuminated by bright lights would have been an easy target. He was more exposed and vulnerable than anyone else.
While he is more exposed, he is no easier a target as any other specific individual.
A trained shooter (sniper or decent hunter) should have been able to hit an individual at that range with a scoped rifle, and if your eyes are younger than mine, even iron sights.
It appears he was shooting full auto, and more going for hosing down the crowd than any specific individual, an act which significantly increases the casualty count. All he had to do was direct his fire into the largest concentrations of people to get maximum effect without precision.
So someone standing there might feel more 'naked' but in reality, their odds of being hit are likely a little less, because the shooter was going for center of mass of the crowd.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 03, 2017, 12:17:57 pm
Sad if that idiot Texan on the radio, Alex Jones is exploiting this situation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 03, 2017, 12:24:40 pm
Does that Jones' pals on FNC are about to go there as well. Bring ISIS to the table. Always seeking to defend the muslim ban in the USA. Sad, pathetic losers.
Yes, let's criticize Fox and reporters but let's never criticize the actual culprit of this act, Padgett. That's a winner.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Just_Victor on October 03, 2017, 12:29:28 pm
While he is more exposed, he is no easier a target as any other specific individual.
A trained shooter (sniper or decent hunter) should have been able to hit an individual at that range with a scoped rifle, and if your eyes are younger than mine, even iron sights.
It appears he was shooting full auto, and more going for hosing down the crowd than any specific individual, an act which significantly increases the casualty count. All he had to do was direct his fire into the largest concentrations of people to get maximum effect without precision.
So someone standing there might feel more 'naked' but in reality, their odds of being hit are likely a little less, because the shooter was going for center of mass of the crowd.
Newsmax is saying he used a bump stock. That would explain the explain the full auto sound with a rather slow fire rate. Those devices wreck your accuracy though. https://www.newsmax.com/Headline/US-Las-Vegas-Shooting/2017/10/03/id/817236/ (https://www.newsmax.com/Headline/US-Las-Vegas-Shooting/2017/10/03/id/817236/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 03, 2017, 12:30:22 pm
Watched on CNBC where the reporter asked the gun rights expert, "what do you tell the families of the 59 people killed in Las Vegas", the idiot said "well, my kids are good shots". 9999hair out0000
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 12:35:19 pm
Sad if that idiot Texan, Alex Jones is exploiting this situation.
Tom, anyone with a microphone, website, congressional office, print media, or a YouTube channel is exploiting this incident. Some were before wounded started rolling into ERs.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 12:43:37 pm
Newsmax is saying he used a bump stock. That would explain the explain the full auto sound with a rather slow fire rate. Those devices wreck your accuracy though. https://www.newsmax.com/Headline/US-Las-Vegas-Shooting/2017/10/03/id/817236/ (https://www.newsmax.com/Headline/US-Las-Vegas-Shooting/2017/10/03/id/817236/)
He was going through a magazine every ten seconds, by the you tube audio. Not a 30 round mag, but a 50 or larger. Someone who could split the audio off and count the spikes could maybe get a more precise count and figure actual RPM and magazine size. I heard 10 seconds of sustained fire, a 10+ second delay, then another 10 of sustained fire, and repeat. The gaps were likely reloading. bump stock or auto sear or the correct internals for full auto, the effect is much the same: a lot of rounds downrange in short order--faster and more consistent rate of fire than most could ever fire a semi-auto ordinarily.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 12:57:04 pm
He was going through a magazine every ten seconds, by the you tube audio. Not a 30 round mag, but a 50 or larger. Someone who could split the audio off and count the spikes could maybe get a more precise count and figure actual RPM and magazine size. I heard 10 seconds of sustained fire, a 10+ second delay, then another 10 of sustained fire, and repeat. The gaps were likely reloading. bump stock or auto sear or the correct internals for full auto, the effect is much the same: a lot of rounds downrange in short order--faster and more consistent rate of fire than most could ever fire a semi-auto ordinarily.
Here is a video of someone using a similar slide fire device, combined with a bipod and large capacity drum magazine. You can see that the recoil is manageable enough where the dispersion will be wide at distance, but not unpredictably so. The shooter probably had something similar in setup.
The person in the video initially began with bursts, but then goes wide open towards the end of the video. It does not take long to empty the drum magazine.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ur5c9JDVtY
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Just_Victor on October 03, 2017, 01:05:07 pm
He was going through a magazine every ten seconds, by the you tube audio. Not a 30 round mag, but a 50 or larger. Someone who could split the audio off and count the spikes could maybe get a more precise count and figure actual RPM and magazine size. I heard 10 seconds of sustained fire, a 10+ second delay, then another 10 of sustained fire, and repeat. The gaps were likely reloading. bump stock or auto sear or the correct internals for full auto, the effect is much the same: a lot of rounds downrange in short order--faster and more consistent rate of fire than most could ever fire a semi-auto ordinarily.
Full auto fire rate for the M4 (and most full auto rotating bolt rifles) is ~700-900 RPM. That's 15 rounds per second, and will blow through a 50 round mag in 5 seconds or less. Assuming the rate of fire estimates don't include reload times (I don't know if they do or not).
A bump stock will give you ~300-400 RPM, or 5 or so rounds per second. Early on in this thread someone estimated ~4 rounds per second. Having listened to the audio, I agree. That would empty a 50 round mag in 12 seconds. Consistent with your 10 seconds of sustained fire followed by 10 seconds to reload.
The very regular fire frequency definitely indicates a device, rather than manually squeezing off rounds, just like you said. And regardless, it still provides a substantial amount of lead downrange.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 03, 2017, 01:26:38 pm
But that is a discussion that probably doesn't belong on this thread.
Yes, that was my point too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Rivergirl on October 03, 2017, 01:32:03 pm
Tom, the blame belongs to the shooter and no one else. This is not a Charlie Hebdo situation, nor the truck crashing into the 4th of July crowd in Nice. This is not the Bataclan massare either. Those were terror attacks. At this point in time we do not know the notive for the nightmare. Too many want to change the subject, and I am not one of them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 03:17:52 pm
I don't think the shooter had a clear view of the stage front where the performers normally are. the shooter was behind, above and to the side of the stage. I also very much doubt that the shooter had much accuracy from that distance with a machine gun. He was simply spraying bullets towards the crowd.
I also think the singer had little idea what was happening like everyone else. Something was wrong and it was time to go. There was nothing he could say to change the situation short of possibly making it worse by telling everyone to run.
I'm not aware of his position related to the crowd, so I defer to you.
Yes, the performer would likely be blamed if he had tried to direct the crowd.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 03, 2017, 03:42:58 pm
The news has dried up. I can't find anything on what was found in his Reno home. The gun count kept changing last night- can't authorities count? Have the conflicting stories about him committing suicide versus shooting at SWAT when they breached his room been resolved?
This is an ISIS-like attack without a known ISIS connection-at this time. I find it suspicious the girlfriend was out of the country. Saw internet speculation that Paddock was a bag man/safe house operator for terrorists. The number of properties he owned (27) where he was seldom in residence and his money without provenance, are suspicious.
I also doubt if we will get the truth from our rulers.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 03, 2017, 04:02:40 pm
"This is an ISIS-like attack without a known ISIS connection-at this time. I find it suspicious the girlfriend was out of the country. Saw internet speculation that Paddock was a bag man/safe house operator for terrorists. The number of properties he owned (27) where he was seldom in residence and his money without provenance, are suspicious."
Not suspicious at all that the lady was out of the country. I've heard her described as Asian. Perhaps she has family/friends in the Philipines. And by the way, while Islam has become prominent in the Philipines, the country has traditionally been predominantly Catholic.
As to his properties, there are quite a few people who own multiple homes, but don't live in them. Many people make money by renting out their homes to vacationers. There are quite a few homes around Las Vegas or in beach or ski destinations that are rented out hy the week or more. Friends and I once rented a house in suburban Vegas. The couple which owned the property had lived in it at one time, but the husband's job transferred him out of state. The RE market at the time wasn't good and they couldn't sell, so they decided to rent. Anyway, having multiple residences is not suspicious.
Plus the guy was in real estate and apparently, he made quite a good living from that plus other investments. I'm terrible when it comes to investing, but I know some people who have made nice money from the markets. Again, Paddock's income is not suspicious.
But from what I understand, this man's life is being torn apart by investigators; so hopefully, if there is anything that is not on the "up and up," it will come to light. As of right now, all the points you raise can be adequately explained, and it serves no purpose to let conspiracy theorists and other Internet cranks plant needless suspicions in your brain.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: LadyLiberty on October 03, 2017, 04:08:38 pm
This podcast (Former Navy Corpsman & Cop Became Rescue Worker in Las Vegas) has a first hand account of the massacre. https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-The-Michael-Berry-Show-27764850/ A hero for sure. I wonder if the call accidentally dropped as he claimed or if they cut it off because the guy was getting so emotional.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 03, 2017, 04:32:05 pm
"This is an ISIS-like attack without a known ISIS connection-at this time. I find it suspicious the girlfriend was out of the country. Saw internet speculation that Paddock was a bag man/safe house operator for terrorists. The number of properties he owned (27) where he was seldom in residence and his money without provenance, are suspicious."
Not suspicious at all that the lady was out of the country. I've heard her described as Asian. Perhaps she has family/friends in the Philipines. And by the way, while Islam has become prominent in the Philipines, the country has traditionally been predominantly Catholic.
As to his properties, there are quite a few people who own multiple homes, but don't live in them. Many people make money by renting out their homes to vacationers. There are quite a few homes around Las Vegas or in beach or ski destinations that are rented out hy the week or more. Friends and I once rented a house in suburban Vegas. The couple which owned the property had lived in it at one time, but the husband's job transferred him out of state. The RE market at the time wasn't good and they couldn't sell, so they decided to rent. Anyway, having multiple residences is not suspicious.
Plus the guy was in real estate and apparently, he made quite a good living from that plus other investments. I'm terrible when it comes to investing, but I know some people who have made nice money from the markets. Again, Paddock's income is not suspicious.
But from what I understand, this man's life is being torn apart by investigators; so hopefully, if there is anything that is not on the "up and up," it will come to light. As of right now, all the points you raise can be adequately explained, and it serves no purpose to let conspiracy theorists and other Internet cranks plant needless suspicions in your brain.
There are a great many questions and since there are so many conflicting stories, speculation is rampant. No one is planting anything in my brain. I think for myself.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 05:33:14 pm
Link with pictures of a couple weapons inside the room. There's an additional link below the photos that takes you to a pic of the dead perp. Warning - if you click that additional link, the pic is graphic. It would appear as though he put the revolver on the floor in his mouth. Can't tell the make, but the cylinder is large and may be a hammerless Taurus Judge.
Link with pictures of a couple weapons inside the room. There's an additional link below the photos that takes you to a pic of the dead perp. Warning - if you click that additional link, the pic is graphic. It would appear as though he put the revolver on the floor in his mouth. Can't tell the make, but the cylinder is large and may be a hammerless Taurus Judge.
Went to the link. Could be he put the revolver in his mouth, but could he have been shot in the mouth by SWAT? Is there anyway to tell from the photo?
He may have taken one in the chest from SWAT. I can't tell if the stain on the shirt is from a GSW or not. Since the revolver is bloody, I'm guessing he ate it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 03, 2017, 05:43:34 pm
He may have taken one in the chest from SWAT. I can't tell if the stain on the shirt is from a GSW or not. Since the revolver is bloody, I'm guessing he ate it.
Thanks, and thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 05:45:49 pm
Link with pictures of a couple weapons inside the room. There's an additional link below the photos that takes you to a pic of the dead perp. Warning - if you click that additional link, the pic is graphic. It would appear as though he put the revolver on the floor in his mouth. Can't tell the make, but the cylinder is large and may be a hammerless Taurus Judge.
Pretty brutal. It could possibly explain the conflicting stories, they weren't conflicting. When the police came in and shot him, he killed himself before they finished the job (could explain the blood on the shirt although that could be his headshot splatter too).
One of the guns in that definitely has a bump fire stock so that answers another question. It also appears to have a 60 or 100 round magazine.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 05:47:26 pm
He may have taken one in the chest from SWAT. I can't tell if the stain on the shirt is from a GSW or not. Since the revolver is bloody, I'm guessing he ate it.
@edpc It could also be sweat, a spilled drink, an injury from the breach charge or just about anything else.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 05:47:52 pm
Kinda curious as to how those got released so fast.
At least the corpse photo, I doubt that was an official release. Probably some coronor or security guard took a snapshot with their phone and sent it to a friend and now it is everywhere.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 05:49:42 pm
Just a heads-up... some of the lines the Left is starting to push with this:
"Conservatives say this murderer had a RIGHT to own a gun, but the people he hit don't have a RIGHT to healthcare."
and
"Some of the heroes who protected others and took bullets themselves might have to go bankrupt because of our healthcare system."
Be prepared to counter these.
No problem. As to the first, show me someone who was injured in that incident and was turned away at the hospital. For the second, name another specialized service where you can walk into any provider and demand their expertise for free.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 06:06:37 pm
Just a heads-up... some of the lines the Left is starting to push with this:
"Conservatives say this murderer had a RIGHT to own a gun, but the people he hit don't have a RIGHT to healthcare."
and
"Some of the heroes who protected others and took bullets themselves might have to go bankrupt because of our healthcare system."
Be prepared to counter these.
@Suppressed Where is it in our Constitution that free healthcare is as Right protected by the Constitution? When doctors and nurses start working for free then lets talk.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 03, 2017, 06:07:41 pm
Yes, the performer would likely be blamed if he had tried to direct the crowd.
Even the police did not know where the shots were coming from, and at first it was assumed multiple gunmen. Obviously with an elevated shooter the best advice would be to run like hell for the nearest cover like a car, structure or wall. But not knowing this a shout on the MC to run could be sending people into a shooters line of fire, where the command to hit the deck and stay low may have been the best option. Not knowing anything about the shooters location any commands shouted from the stage could have been the wrong one. I cant see how any logical thinking person can put blame on the band.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 03, 2017, 06:36:24 pm
Just a heads-up... some of the lines the Left is starting to push with this:
"Conservatives say this murderer had a RIGHT to own a gun, but the people he hit don't have a RIGHT to healthcare."
and
"Some of the heroes who protected others and took bullets themselves might have to go bankrupt because of our healthcare system."
Be prepared to counter these.
Oh the drama!!!
When people make claims like that, I ask them for proof. Show me evidence that any of these injured people are going bankrupt or will be going bankrupt as a result of this incident? Do you know for a fact that any of them are uninsured? Do you know of any specific instance where anyone was denied health care after this incident because phe or she had no health insurance?
The word here is "MIGHT." Th liberals are arguing about something that hasn't happened and most likely, probably won't.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 03, 2017, 06:44:29 pm
They said they had concerns when they went to the shooters home about booby traps which was not to be the case from what I've read, so, I'd think they might have had some concerns about going into his hotel room. Sounds like they could have used shock grenades.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 06:47:09 pm
They said they had concerns when they went to the shooters home about booby traps which was not to be the case from what I've read, so, I'd think they might have had some concerns about going into his hotel room. Sounds like they could have used shock grenades.
The problem is didn't they find some explosive material in his car (tannerite)? They may have been cautious in using something like that if the room was wired to go it could take out half the hotel. (not that tannerite could but other explosives could easily). Sometimes, as frustrating as it may seem, slow and careful is far better than barging in with guns blazing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 03, 2017, 06:47:55 pm
The problem is didn't they find some explosive material in his car (tannerite)? They may have been cautious in using something like that if the room was wired to go it could take out half the hotel. (not that tannerite could but other explosives could easily). Sometimes, as frustrating as it may seem, slow and careful is far better than barging in with guns blazing.
@AbaraXas They used a breaching charge to go into the room, didnt they?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 06:50:52 pm
The problem is didn't they find some explosive material in his car (tannerite)? They may have been cautious in using something like that if the room was wired to go it could take out half the hotel. (not that tannerite could but other explosives could easily). Sometimes, as frustrating as it may seem, slow and careful is far better than barging in with guns blazing.
I was out in Vegas a couple years ago and went to one of the shooting ranges. At the end they put 8lbs of tannerite in these old cabs and we shot them. The explosion sent the hood about 200 feet up in the air. Yes its not a HE but it would certainly do a lot of damage and hurt people.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 07:11:18 pm
@Suppressed Where is it in our Constitution that free healthcare is as Right protected by the Constitution? When doctors and nurses start working for free then lets talk.
What he is describing is a perfect Communist government.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 03, 2017, 07:16:32 pm
Yes its not a HE but it would certainly do a lot of damage and hurt people.
Actually, no... With the windows blown out, it would take a buttload of anything to do any damage. For the most part, an explosion goes where it most easily can. It would probably torch the room, but the explosive force would likely mostly go out the windows.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 07:22:26 pm
I was out in Vegas a couple years ago and went to one of the shooting ranges. At the end they put 8lbs of tannerite in these old cabs and we shot them. The explosion sent the hood about 200 feet up in the air. Yes its not a HE but it would certainly do a lot of damage and hurt people.
@AbaraXas Yep, Tannerite is an explosive. The question is one of how much he had, not if he had it. Relatively small amounts make for a definitive target 'hit' indicator when shooting a rifle (it takes a fairly energetic hit to set it off), large amounts could do some damage. All we know is that he had some, which describes a lot of people.
It comes in two parts, and those have to be mixed together before use. It is not recommended to leave mixed (two components combined) tannerite laying around.
Tannerite is the brand name of a patented[1] exploding target used for firearms practice, sold in kit form and containing the components of a binary explosive.[2] The explosive comprises a combination of ammonium nitrate and/or ammonium perchlorate (oxidizers), and a fuel - primarily aluminum powder - that is supplied as two separate powders that are mixed by the user. The combination is relatively stable when subjected to forces less severe than a high-velocity bullet impact, such as a hammer blow, being dropped, or impact from a low-velocity bullet or shotgun blast.[1] It is also not flammable – an explosion cannot be created by a burning fuse or electricity.[3] Because it is sold as two separate powders, it can be transported and sold in many places without the legal restrictions that would otherwise apply to explosives.[4] The target system as a whole is the patented, trademarked product called Tannerite, although the term is often used to refer to the explosive mixture itself, and other combination explosives are often generically referred to as Tannerite.[4]
Since ammonium nitrate is one of the component chemicals of Tannerite, that might account for the Ammonium Nitrate residues found.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 03, 2017, 07:25:16 pm
Even the police did not know where the shots were coming from, and at first it was assumed multiple gunmen. Obviously with an elevated shooter the best advice would be to run like hell for the nearest cover like a car, structure or wall. But not knowing this a shout on the MC to run could be sending people into a shooters line of fire, where the command to hit the deck and stay low may have been the best option. Not knowing anything about the shooters location any commands shouted from the stage could have been the wrong one. I cant see how any logical thinking person can put blame on the band.
@Suppressed Where is it in our Constitution that free healthcare is as Right protected by the Constitution? When doctors and nurses start working for free then lets talk.
The irony is, most of these SJW types clamoring for this are your burger flippers and baristas of the world. Don't get me wrong – I am not denigrating jobs of the employed. My point is, when we get a government controlled health plan, they are going to decide those $5 combo meals are artery cloggers and the triple mocha lattes are diabetes in a cup. Those people will find themselves SOL for work, with no other skills in the market.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 07:37:51 pm
@AbaraXas Yep, Tannerite is an explosive. The question is one of how much he had, not if he had it. Relatively small amounts make for a definitive target 'hit' indicator when shooting a rifle (it takes a fairly energetic hit to set it off), large amounts could do some damage. All we know is that he had some, which describes a lot of people.
It comes in two parts, and those have to be mixed together before use. It is not recommended to leave mixed (two components combined) tannerite laying around.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 03, 2017, 08:01:53 pm
Briefing about Las Vegas massacre about to start.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 03, 2017, 08:05:01 pm
Las Vegas Shooter Wired $100,000 to Philippines Last Week by TOM WINTER, JONATHAN DIENST, PETE WILLIAMS and ANDREW BLANKSTEIN OCT 3 2017, 3:49 PM ET https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-shooter-wired-100-000-philippines-last-week-n807141
Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock wired $100,000 to an account in his live-in girlfriend’s home country of the Philippines in the week before he unleashed the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history, according to multiple senior law enforcement officials.
But while officials have confirmed that Marilou Danley was in the Philippines on Sunday when Paddock opened fire on a crowd attending a country music festival on the Vegas Strip, it was not known whether the money was for her, her family, or another purpose.
Danley, 62, who had traveled to Hong Kong on Sept. 25, could fill in some of the blanks when she returns to the U.S. on Wednesday, the officials said. Her arrival airport was not known. [...]
Excerpt.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 03, 2017, 08:08:45 pm
What are the chances she will ever return to the US?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 08:13:20 pm
What are the chances she will ever return to the US?
I read she was planning on returning on Wednesday. If she's in the PI we could extradite her most likely. Either that or tell their President she's running drugs and he'd have the police kill her. He does that.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 08:15:01 pm
Per sheriff girlfriend is in Philippines and she is a person of interest. Looking into how the photos of Paddock's dead body were leaked.
Someone on the after action forensic team, most likely. Places like The Enquirer, TMZ, and others pay a premium for stuff like this. Hard for someone to resist the temptation. The shooter had positioned cameras inside and outside the room. Probably wirelessly hooked up to a laptop inside. If there was any video captured on that HDD, you can expect that may leak as well.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 03, 2017, 09:06:36 pm
Someone on the after action forensic team, most likely. Places like The Enquirer, TMZ, and others pay a premium for stuff like this. Hard for someone to resist the temptation. The shooter had positioned cameras inside and outside the room. Probably wirelessly hooked up to a laptop inside. If there was any video captured on that HDD, you can expect that may leak as well.
I think you're right. Looks like they are taking a hard look at the girlfriend.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 09:14:16 pm
Breaking, police are saying the gunman may have been planning an earlier attack, to go after the Life is Beautiful festival instead. He tried to get rooms overlooking that festival before getting the rooms for this one.
Breaking, police are saying the gunman may have been planning an earlier attack, to go after the Life is Beautiful festival instead. He tried to get rooms overlooking that festival before getting the rooms for this one.
Breaking, police are saying the gunman may have been planning an earlier attack, to go after the Life is Beautiful festival instead. He tried to get rooms overlooking that festival before getting the rooms for this one.
I bet the fired legal VP from CBS would've felt sympathy for that crowd.
Idiot.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 09:33:07 pm
How much? That is the question. If they found 200 pounds, that is one thing, if they found a little bit, that could be just a tannerite component. BTW, ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate/Fuel Oil) is a common mining explosive, but only about 40% as strong as an equal weight of TNT. It takes a lot to be destructive at any distance. Tim McVeigh had a truckload of the stuff.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 03, 2017, 09:34:41 pm
Between this and Tom Petty I'm seriously sad. Beyond sad
Not even ice cream can make me happy
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 03, 2017, 09:38:27 pm
ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate/Fuel Oil) is a common mining explosive, but only about 40% as strong as an equal weight of TNT. It takes a lot to be destructive at any distance. Tim McVeigh had a truckload of the stuff.
Also, it was in a truck that was sandbagged to focus and optimize the effect.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 09:39:03 pm
Las Vegas Shooter Wired $100,000 to Philippines Last Week by TOM WINTER, JONATHAN DIENST, PETE WILLIAMS and ANDREW BLANKSTEIN OCT 3 2017, 3:49 PM ET https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/las-vegas-shooter-wired-100-000-philippines-last-week-n807141
Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock wired $100,000 to an account in his live-in girlfriend’s home country of the Philippines in the week before he unleashed the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history, according to multiple senior law enforcement officials.
But while officials have confirmed that Marilou Danley was in the Philippines on Sunday when Paddock opened fire on a crowd attending a country music festival on the Vegas Strip, it was not known whether the money was for her, her family, or another purpose.
Danley, 62, who had traveled to Hong Kong on Sept. 25, could fill in some of the blanks when she returns to the U.S. on Wednesday, the officials said. Her arrival airport was not known. [...]
Excerpt.
One of the early posts I made was from a Facebook profile of her husband Geary Danley (no divorce), who is an ardent liberal. At the time he was a possibility for the shooter, but was soon cleared of being involved (she has been hanging with Paddock). Any which way, I'd bet there is more to this all than face value.
Was her marriage to Geary one of those to get her US Citizenship/permanent residency? Such arrangements are known to occur (I was once offered 10K to marry a nurse from the Philippines to allow her to stay in country. I declined).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 09:41:28 pm
One of the early posts I made was from a Facebook profile of her husband Geary Danley (no divorce), who is an ardent liberal. At the time he was a possibility for the shooter, but was soon cleared of being involved (she has been hanging with Paddock). Any which way, I'd bet there is more to this all than face value.
Was her marriage to Geary one of those to get her US Citizenship/permanent residency? Such arrangements are known to occur (I was once offered 10K to marry a nurse from the Philippines to allow her to stay in country. I declined).
The Geary guy was married to a woman with the same name, but not the same person. It is one of those early hoaxes/mistakes that just won't die.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 09:41:52 pm
New revelation. He videotaped himself during the shooting and the police have the recordings.
Breaking, police are saying the gunman may have been planning an earlier attack, to go after the Life is Beautiful festival instead. He tried to get rooms overlooking that festival before getting the rooms for this one.
IE, the target wasn't who the target was (ie Country fans and the stereotypes that come with it), but the target that fit the opportunity.
Not that crowd specifically, but any crowd? That takes this back into terrorism, independent of domestic political disputes or stereotypical crowd profiles.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 03, 2017, 09:51:35 pm
The Geary guy was married to a woman with the same name, but not the same person. It is one of those early hoaxes/mistakes that just won't die.
Maybe the images have been mixed up, but they even look alike.
And there is this:
Quote
Danley, who was identified as Paddock's girlfriend, was married in 1990 to Geary Danley. There is no record of a divorce between the two, while Paddock divorced his wife 27 years ago.
>snip< Paddock used Danley's ID when he checked himself into the hotel according to a source with knowledge of the investigation, despite the fact that she was not with him during his stay.
Paddock and Danley live in a upscale community that includes an 18-hole golf course, indoor and outdoor swimming pools and a recreation center with gym.
from (and considerably more at) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4944234/Two-23-rifles-inside-Stephen-Paddock-s-room.html#ixzz4uTaHoXEr (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4944234/Two-23-rifles-inside-Stephen-Paddock-s-room.html#ixzz4uTaHoXEr)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 03, 2017, 10:28:22 pm
I think you're right. Looks like they are taking a hard look at the girlfriend.
Maybe she left the country as an alibi. It's not hard to have the video stored to a laptop and have that data copied to the internet. If she knows what she's doing she could log into that laptop from the PI and delete the footprints.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 03, 2017, 10:41:27 pm
Just bumping this again. We need to hear more about the Jonathans of the world and give them as much coverage.
Maybe she left the country as an alibi. It's not hard to have the video stored to a laptop and have that data copied to the internet. If she knows what she's doing she could log into that laptop from the PI and delete the footprints.
I was thinking of the possibility that the video feed was viewed 'Live' from an offsite location. :shrug:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 04, 2017, 12:26:55 am
There is an equivalence ratio/rating for TNT and bomb grade ammonium nitrate/fuel mix. I think it is around 1: 0.7. Don't quote me on that. Meaning that twice the weighted amount of ammonium nitrate per TNT doesn't give you a bigger bomb.
Take all of your weapons. Start with the most rapid fire and perhaps highest power/size. Have no plan to reload once you start shooting but have that as a backup. Fire all loaded weapons and if there is time then start to reload and fire.
I've taken some advice and dug up some Zoloft, Valium, and Keystone Light. The nightmares were way bad last night. So, what? 400 mg Zoloft, 30 mg Valium and a 6 of Keystone tall boys to start?
Yep.
See if it slows the rocket down.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 04, 2017, 12:33:21 am
There is an equivalence ratio/rating for TNT and bomb grade ammonium nitrate/fuel mix. I think it is around 1: 0.7. Don't quote me on that. Meaning that twice the weighted amount of ammonium nitrate per TNT doesn't give you a bigger bomb.
Take all of your weapons. Start with the most rapid fire and perhaps highest power/size. Have no plan to reload once you start shooting but have that as a backup. Fire all loaded weapons and if there is time then start to reload and fire.
I've taken some advice and dug up some Zoloft, Valium, and Keystone Light. The nightmares were way bad last night. So, what? 400 mg Zoloft, 30 mg Valium and a 6 of Keystone tall boys to start?
Yep.
See if it slows the rocket down.
Have you tried Canadian Whiskey? It covers a lot of sin.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: corbe on October 04, 2017, 12:53:17 am
@bigheadfred I prefer this, The beer ain't bad either.
Heard on 4chan that the FBI thinks he streamed himself shooting to somewhere in the Philippines.
@DCPatriot I wonder if this is part of some sort of ransom/blackmail situation. The guy has means, she may have relatives over there in a bind (given Abu Sayyaf activity over there) and this may be the ransom price--an act instead of money. Abu Sayyaf is notorious for kidnappings.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 01:24:53 am
I wonder if this is part of some sort of ransom/blackmail situation. The guy has means, she may have relatives over there in a bind (given Abu Sayyaf activity over there) and this may be the ransom price--an act instead of money.
Sounds like the Black Mirror episode Shut Up And Dance.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 01:48:29 am
I'm guessing the cause of death will be a 'motorboating' accident?
I actually laughed out loud at this one.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 04, 2017, 04:17:20 am
A stopped clock is still correct 2 times a day and it may well prove out that some many were calling hoaxers may be on the right trail, not about everything of course.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 04:27:13 am
A stopped clock is still correct 2 times a day and it may well prove out that some many were calling hoaxers may be on the right trail, not about everything of course.
There is a lot of brainstorming going on.
Facts (so far)
Successful white guy lets loose on concert with full auto and semi-auto firearms on a crowd from a hotel window. Kills 50, wounds or causes injury to over 500.
Girlfriend in PI.
Shooter killed at the end of the spree
Shooter took trouble to smuggle a great deal of ammo and unusual number of firearms (for one guy) into the room.
Shooter used GF's ID to check in.
All the theories will be trying to figure out why an apparently wealthy white guy would shoot up a music festival, or whether any crowd would do...and if that, why?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 04, 2017, 04:41:19 am
I wonder if she chose to come back or was compelled to?
Well I am generally compelled to go home at the end of the day because my stuff is there. I'm thinking the same reasoning went through her head after her vacation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 04, 2017, 05:29:13 am
Well I am generally compelled to go home at the end of the day because my stuff is there. I'm thinking the same reasoning went through her head after her vacation.
Wth a $100k transfer you could extend your vacation a bit longer....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 04, 2017, 05:42:48 am
Wth a $100k transfer you could extend your vacation a bit longer....
Yeah, but if she's been with him any amount of time, as common law wife, there is inheritance to think about... Though the law suits against the estate...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 04, 2017, 06:02:05 am
If there's any evidence she helped him or knew what he was up to she's going to be vacationing at club fed for a long time.
If she is married through common law whatever assets they had are gone.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 10:51:53 am
That she had two social security numbers, multiple addresses and is married to two different men...
Well that might be useful in reporting gambling income. I don't know tax law. One of my kids has 2 SS numbers because the IRS screwed up. There are more people with two issued than you might imagine because the IRS issued duplicate batches on more than one occasion and over time had to issue new ones.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 11:43:15 am
Interesting that he allegedly was prescribed Valium recently. Drugs for anxiety, depression and other mental illnesses can make a person suicidal or psychotic. Who knows what side effect Paddock may have experienced.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 04, 2017, 12:00:56 pm
Well that might be useful in reporting gambling income. I don't know tax law. One of my kids has 2 SS numbers because the IRS screwed up. There are more people with two issued than you might imagine because the IRS issued duplicate batches on more than one occasion and over time had to issue new ones.
Not being a citizen, would she have had any SSNs? A TIN I could see, but SSN?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 12:02:15 pm
Cherchez la femme! There is a lot there that seems pretty sketchy to me.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 12:13:52 pm
Not being a citizen, would she have had any SSNs? A TIN I could see, but SSN?
A SSN can be obtained with lawful, non-citizen status, such as work-authorized.
Application for Social Security Card https://www.ssa.gov/forms/ss-5fs.pdf
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 04, 2017, 12:23:46 pm
Having given this a lot of thought, I'm now heavily leaning in the direction that the shooter was deliberately targeting conservatives. He might still be ISIS convert but more likely an agent for Antifa/BLM. Similar to the person that targeted Republicans on the DC softball field. It appears the progressives are taking their war on conservatives to a new level. If so expect more violence against conservatives.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 12:43:48 pm
The information about his father would be other relevant facts to add, I'm guessing.
On the speculation side...
DailyMail is reporting (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4946882/Girlfriend-Las-Vegas-shooter-meet-FBI-LAX.htm) that Starbucks manager is saying he often berated her:
Quote
'He would glare down at her and say, "You don't need my casino card for this. I'm paying for your drink, just like I'm paying for you,"' Mendoza recalled.
Also from DM:
Quote
In California, her name is registered as Marilou Natividad-Bustos and her age is listed as 55 - but in Nevada, her name is down as Marilou Lou Danley and her age listed as 62.
So, a Sugar Daddy arrangement?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 12:44:43 pm
Having given this a lot of thought, I'm now heavily leaning in the direction that the shooter was deliberately targeting conservatives. He might still be ISIS convert but more likely an agent for Antifa/BLM. Similar to the person that targeted Republicans on the DC softball field. It appears the progressives are taking their war on conservatives to a new level. If so expect more violence against conservatives.
Doesn't fit with the idea that he was trying to book rooms for the other concert.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 04, 2017, 12:47:49 pm
Having given this a lot of thought, I'm now heavily leaning in the direction that the shooter was deliberately targeting conservatives. He might still be ISIS convert but more likely an agent for Antifa/BLM. Similar to the person that targeted Republicans on the DC softball field. It appears the progressives are taking their war on conservatives to a new level. If so expect more violence against conservatives.
Las Vegas gunman may have originally targeted festival headlined by Chance the Rapper: Report http://wgntv.com/2017/10/03/las-vegas-gunman-may-have-originally-targeted-festival-headlined-by-chance-the-rapper-report/
Las Vegas Gunman May Have First Planned to Attack Chance the Rapper and Lorde Concert https://www.thedailybeast.com/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-may-have-first-planned-to-attack-chance-the-rapper-and-lorde-concert Stephen Paddock rented condos overlooking the ‘Life Is Beautiful’ festival last month, a senior law enforcement source tells The Daily Beast.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Just_Victor on October 04, 2017, 12:58:58 pm
Las Vegas gunman may have originally targeted festival headlined by Chance the Rapper: Report http://wgntv.com/2017/10/03/las-vegas-gunman-may-have-originally-targeted-festival-headlined-by-chance-the-rapper-report/
Las Vegas Gunman May Have First Planned to Attack Chance the Rapper and Lorde Concert https://www.thedailybeast.com/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-may-have-first-planned-to-attack-chance-the-rapper-and-lorde-concert Stephen Paddock rented condos overlooking the ‘Life Is Beautiful’ festival last month, a senior law enforcement source tells The Daily Beast.
It's also entirely possible that he rented those other hotel rooms (condo according to the article) because he needed a place to stay. Is there any evidence other than proximity to the events?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 04, 2017, 12:59:53 pm
Las Vegas gunman may have originally targeted festival headlined by Chance the Rapper: Report http://wgntv.com/2017/10/03/las-vegas-gunman-may-have-originally-targeted-festival-headlined-by-chance-the-rapper-report/
Las Vegas Gunman May Have First Planned to Attack Chance the Rapper and Lorde Concert https://www.thedailybeast.com/las-vegas-gunman-stephen-paddock-may-have-first-planned-to-attack-chance-the-rapper-and-lorde-concert Stephen Paddock rented condos overlooking the ‘Life Is Beautiful’ festival last month, a senior law enforcement source tells The Daily Beast.
That at the moment is speculation and the source of the speculation is highly suspect. The Daily Beast is an arm of the lying Washington Post. Establishment leftists will do just about anything to prevent this attack as being seen as a attack by the left on the right.
I might be wrong, we'll see.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 01:01:40 pm
Having given this a lot of thought, I'm now heavily leaning in the direction that the shooter was deliberately targeting conservatives. He might still be ISIS convert but more likely an agent for Antifa/BLM. Similar to the person that targeted Republicans on the DC softball field. It appears the progressives are taking their war on conservatives to a new level. If so expect more violence against conservatives.
Except he originally tried to get a room overlooking some event that was targeted more toward liberals. I'm on my phone now; links are much easier to post on computer. I'll look for it later.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 04, 2017, 01:03:01 pm
It's also entirely possible that he rented those other hotel rooms because he needed a place to stay. Is there any evidence other than proximity to the events?
Las Vegas mass shooter Stephen Paddock may have had another target in mind.
Last weekend, he tried to rent a room overlooking a music festival a few miles away from the scene of his carnage Sunday, a law-enforcement source told The Post.
But Paddock couldn’t get a room that looked out onto the Life is Beautiful Festival, headlined by Chance the Rapper and Lorde and held in Sin City Sept. 22-24, the source said.
Las Vegas mass shooter Stephen Paddock may have had another target in mind.
Last weekend, he tried to rent a room overlooking a music festival a few miles away from the scene of his carnage Sunday, a law-enforcement source told The Post.
But Paddock couldn’t get a room that looked out onto the Life is Beautiful Festival, headlined by Chance the Rapper and Lorde and held in Sin City Sept. 22-24, the source said.
Very speculative at this point. I'm still not seeing any actual evidence that shooting up this other event was planned. Not saying it isn't true, but I'll wait for better evidence.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 01:06:13 pm
That at the moment is speculation and the source of the speculation is highly suspect. The Daily Beast is an arm of the lying Washington Post. Establishment leftists will do just about anything to prevent this attack as being seen as a attack by the left on the right.
Las Vegas mass shooter Stephen Paddock may have had another target in mind.
Last weekend, he tried to rent a room overlooking a music festival a few miles away from the scene of his carnage Sunday, a law-enforcement source told The Post.
But Paddock couldn’t get a room that looked out onto the Life is Beautiful Festival, headlined by Chance the Rapper and Lorde and held in Sin City Sept. 22-24, the source said.
He was a frequent visitor, prior room booking or attempted booking mean nothing. The facts are he targeted and killed country western fans. Country Western fans are God and Country people. They are mostly conservative. That you are seeing in the media is SOP, deflect, obfuscate, change the topic.
The guy killed conservatives and more than a few liberals were happy about that. Those are the facts thus far.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 01:11:12 pm
If there's any evidence she helped him or knew what he was up to she's going to be vacationing at club fed for a long time.
That'd be right.
Quote
If she is married through common law whatever assets they had are gone.
Dunno about there, but at least here, that'd be wrong. Here, living together something like 6 mos or a year, you may as well be married in the courts eyes. Here, she'd have a shot at that inheritance. Although her previous and undissolved marriage would be in the way.
But, it is of little concern, and largely incidental - 600 injured people will destroy his worth.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 01:14:44 pm
On my travels, I generally request specifics about rooms, i.e. first floor in CA, ocean view near water, etc.
As a middle aged white male, I'll probably raise some red flags asking for specifics in accommodations, now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 01:14:59 pm
So your "lots of thought" outweighs that information?
How is Soros involved? I mean, he must be, right?
Your information is meaningless. He was a big gambler and went to Vegas frequently. So what that he tried to book a room here or there. It is what he did that counts not what the Washington Post says he might have been thinking of doing.
I am just going where the FACTS lead. I am not making stuff up, you are.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 04, 2017, 01:19:33 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood . It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.
Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened. Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began, yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour. They must have known he was already dead. The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.
Why did he kill himself so early? Because his dirty work was done. The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point. I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists. The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector, was to commit a terrorist act. The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up. He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives. He may well have been apolitical like his brother says. He was, I think, caught up in an inextricable situation, did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price, and then shot himself.
Well, that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now. We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable. So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 04, 2017, 01:20:09 pm
Your information is meaningless. He was a big gambler and went to Vegas frequently. So what that he tried to book a room here or there. It is what he did that counts not what the Washington Post says he might have been thinking of doing.
I am just going where the FACTS lead. I am not making stuff up, you are.
LOL
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 04, 2017, 01:33:41 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood . It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.
Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened. Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began, yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour. They must have known he was already dead. The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.
Why did he kill himself so early? Because his dirty work was done. The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point. I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists. The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector, was to commit a terrorist act. The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up. He's apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives. He may well have been apolitical like his brother says. He was, I think, caught up in an inextrcable situation, did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price, and then shot himself.
Well, that the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me. So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.
Thank you for sharing. I hope you post more about the local reaction later as you have time.
We know folks that were at the concert earlier in the day but left a couple hours before the shooting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Oceander on October 04, 2017, 01:34:32 pm
Your information is meaningless. He was a big gambler and went to Vegas frequently. So what that he tried to book a room here or there. It is what he did that counts not what the Washington Post says he might have been thinking of doing.
I am just going where the FACTS lead. I am not making stuff up, you are.
@jpsb If he wanted specific rooms that overlooked the venue, and didn't book when they were unavailable, that would give a good indication.
We'll have to see whether the CBS source was right about him actually not booking rooms. It's possible that when he couldn't get those rooms, he booked condos and just gambled.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 01:45:08 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 04, 2017, 02:04:34 pm
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/10/03/curiouser-and-curiouser-vegas-shooters-girlfriend-used-multiple-ids-multiple-ss-numbers-and-married-two-men-simultaneously/#more-139402 Curiouser and Curiouser – Vegas Shooter’s Girlfriend Used Multiple ID’s, Multiple SS Numbers, and Married Two Men Simultaneously…
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 02:19:56 pm
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/10/03/curiouser-and-curiouser-vegas-shooters-girlfriend-used-multiple-ids-multiple-ss-numbers-and-married-two-men-simultaneously/#more-139402 Curiouser and Curiouser – Vegas Shooter’s Girlfriend Used Multiple ID’s, Multiple SS Numbers, and Married Two Men Simultaneously…
I don't know if this is the same issue, but there is some weird stuff around all the 'brides' coming in from Asia for old men phenomenon. We had an old disabled vet here in town get a Filipino bride and while she said she was 22, you could swear she was 16 or 17 at the oldest and acted like it. She was always going out clubbing and being seen with men her age. (aka 18-19) Apparently these old guys get these 'brides' to take care of them and in turn, they get immigration papers. But the problem is the papers they bring from their home countries often are forged and things like age, marital status, etc, are often fake. This one was busted when she was caught stealing from him and sending money back to her home country.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Weird Tolkienish Figure on October 04, 2017, 02:27:39 pm
How many creepy freeptards claim to have these young asian wives?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: BassWrangler on October 04, 2017, 02:29:48 pm
I really dislike how Drudge will pay links to Infowars. I end up reading almost an entire article before I realize that's the site I am on, and that some of all of the article is speculative crap.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 02:32:06 pm
How many creepy freeptards claim to have these young asian wives?
While I'm not denying that many TOSsers are creepy, it's an interesting sociological phenomenon that we've reversed the old societal mores. It used to be that it was considered irresponsible for women to marry young men who hadn't yet developed the means to care for them properly.
It doesn't have anything to do with this case; I just find such cultural changes fascinating.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 04, 2017, 02:33:24 pm
How many creepy freeptards claim to have these young asian wives?
I think these days denizens of ToS are more likely to be into "racial purity" than young Asian wives. I suspect a cross check of Stormfront and ToS member roles would show a high correlation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 04, 2017, 02:36:50 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood . It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.
Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened. Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began, yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour. They must have known he was already dead. The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.
Why did he kill himself so early? Because his dirty work was done. The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point. I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists. The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector, was to commit a terrorist act. The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up. He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives. He may well have been apolitical like his brother says. He was, I think, caught up in an inextricable situation, did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price, and then shot himself.
Well, that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now. We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable. So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.
Oh, @Jazzhead !! I'm SO glad you're OK! Praise God!!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 02:39:45 pm
This one will be a hot mess, indefinitely. Any investigating body from the federal government will be mistrusted. That many people involved will generate literally thousands of different and contradicting eyewitness testimonies. The 24 hour news cycle and rush to be first will generate misinformation and disinformation. Internet trolls will muddy the waters.
It will probably go on for years. People still believe the DC sniper had some connection to jihad.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 02:41:02 pm
I really dislike how Drudge will pay links to Infowars. I end up reading almost an entire article before I realize that's the site I am on, and that some of all of the article is speculative crap.
Especially the latest one which is very dishonest. The sheriff didn't say he was possibly radicalized. He gave a very evasive non-answer to a question about radicalization, the typical answer a police officer. This is expected from Infowars, but I'm very disappointed in Drudge letting this pass as a headline.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 02:43:09 pm
This one will be a hot mess, indefinitely. Any investigating body from the federal government will be mistrusted. That many people involved will generate literally thousands of different and contradicting eyewitness testimonies. The 24 hour news cycle and rush to be first will generate misinformation and disinformation. Internet trolls will muddy the waters.
It will probably go on for years. People still believe the DC sniper had some connection to jihad.
Yep, and the internet/social media just makes it worse. I know highly intelligent, educated professionals who otherwise wouldn't believe nutty CTs still honestly think that Sandy Hook was a hoax done by actors.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 04, 2017, 02:45:22 pm
Especially the latest one which is very dishonest. The sheriff didn't say he was possibly radicalized. He gave a very evasive non-answer to a question about radicalization, the typical answer a police officer. This is expected from Infowars, but I'm very disappointed in Drudge letting this pass as a headline.
It's amusing to me to see how all of a sudden, Infowars sees Islamic terror as a threat, when 15 years ago, they were pushing that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Bush administration.
It's all a dog-and-pony show.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 02:56:23 pm
It's amusing to me to see how all of a sudden, Infowars sees Islamic terror as a threat, when 15 years ago, they were pushing that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Bush administration.
It's all a dog-and-pony show.
Very good point..
Bill Hicks aka Alex Jones is just a character playing to whatever audience works a the time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 04, 2017, 03:05:26 pm
It's amusing to me to see how all of a sudden, Infowars sees Islamic terror as a threat, when 15 years ago, they were pushing that 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Bush administration.
It's all a dog-and-pony show.
Wasn't that long ago either that Alex Jones was talking about how Sandy Hook was one of these nefarious "false flag" operations.
Clearly he will say whatever sells or gets more website clicks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 04, 2017, 03:19:00 pm
This one will be a hot mess, indefinitely. Any investigating body from the federal government will be mistrusted. That many people involved will generate literally thousands of different and contradicting eyewitness testimonies. The 24 hour news cycle and rush to be first will generate misinformation and disinformation. Internet trolls will muddy the waters.
It will probably go on for years. People still believe the DC sniper had some connection to jihad.
Particularly since McCabe is leading the investigation. Can you say coverup? McCabe you may recall lead the Hillary (non) investigation and the investigation that concluded there was no political motivation involved with the DC softball shooting where the shooter asked if the ball players were republicans.
Our government would never lie to us.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 04, 2017, 03:23:53 pm
He was a frequent visitor, prior room booking or attempted booking mean nothing. The facts are he targeted and killed country western fans. Country Western fans are God and Country people. They are mostly conservative. That you are seeing in the media is SOP, deflect, obfuscate, change the topic.
The guy killed conservatives and more than a few liberals were happy about that. Those are the facts thus far.
Chance the Rapper's stuff has a Christian theme. Maybe the murderer was after Christians.
Wasn't that long ago either that Alex Jones was talking about how Sandy Hook was one of these nefarious "false flag" operations.
Clearly he will say whatever sells or gets more website clicks.
@txradioguy Sadly with the weapons he had and the packed crowd we are quite lucky the death toll wasn't higher. I bet a lot of his bullets went high and onto the airport across the street. Also the distance meant the bullets had lost a lot of their energy before hitting people, probably reduced the injuries a little.
No if there were more than one lunatic and they had any training the toll would have been much higher.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 04, 2017, 05:02:46 pm
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/04/07/4505028900000578-4946882-Back_in_the_US_Marilou_62_was_seen_in_a_wheelchair_while_clutchi-a-10_1507100071239.jpg) Back in the US: Marilou, 62, was seen in a wheelchair while clutching a suitcase and shielding her face with a visor. It is unclear why she was in a wheelchair
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 04, 2017, 05:14:52 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4948584/Vegas-gunman-ate-burger-bagel-days-massacre.html Receipt shows Vegas gunman ordered a burger and a bagel to his room at the Mandalay Bay DAYS before the massacre - suggesting he may have had a guest visiting him
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4948584/Vegas-gunman-ate-burger-bagel-days-massacre.html Receipt shows Vegas gunman ordered a burger and a bagel to his room at the Mandalay Bay DAYS before the massacre - suggesting he may have had a guest visiting him
I don't know if it means anything, it could simply just have been removed, but it isn't on the Facebook page referenced.
This really doesn't provide evidence that there were two people there, he just ordered 2 of several items and they thought it was for 2 people because of that. It could be he was eating a lot of his favorite foods before he died. He may have made double orders as to have fewer trips out of his room or for room service to come into his room. Heck, he may have called up a hooker that night for one of his last days on earth. Or it could be fake.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mystery-ak on October 04, 2017, 05:28:37 pm
Quote
This really doesn't provide evidence that there were two people there, he just ordered 2 of several items and they thought it was for 2 people because of that. It could be he was eating a lot of his favorite foods before he died. He may have made double orders as to have fewer trips out of his room or for room service to come into his room. Heck, he may have called up a hooker that night for one of his last days on earth. Or it could be fake.
Yeah...he could have just been hungry..
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 05:28:55 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4948584/Vegas-gunman-ate-burger-bagel-days-massacre.html Receipt shows Vegas gunman ordered a burger and a bagel to his room at the Mandalay Bay DAYS before the massacre - suggesting he may have had a guest visiting him
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4948584/Vegas-gunman-ate-burger-bagel-days-massacre.html Receipt shows Vegas gunman ordered a burger and a bagel to his room at the Mandalay Bay DAYS before the massacre - suggesting he may have had a guest visiting him
@txradioguy Sadly with the weapons he had and the packed crowd we are quite lucky the death toll wasn't higher. I bet a lot of his bullets went high and onto the airport across the street. Also the distance meant the bullets had lost a lot of their energy before hitting people, probably reduced the injuries a little.
No if there were more than one lunatic and they had any training the toll would have been much higher.
Agree totally. This could have been a lot worse has be been a couple hundred yards closer.
I was and still am honestly surprised that with the airport being as close as it was to the venue that there wasn't any damage to any of the airplanes.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 05:42:05 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4948584/Vegas-gunman-ate-burger-bagel-days-massacre.html Receipt shows Vegas gunman ordered a burger and a bagel to his room at the Mandalay Bay DAYS before the massacre - suggesting he may have had a guest visiting him
Agree totally. This could have been a lot worse has be been a couple hundred yards closer.
I was and still am honestly surprised that with the airport being as close as it was to the venue that there wasn't any damage to any of the airplanes.
@txradioguy There would be variation on the rifle and ammo but some generic numbers for the ballistics figuring he was 1100 ft away.
At 100 yds 7.62 velocity 2008ft/s energy 1101 ft lb 5.56 velocity 2759 ft/s energy 929 ft lb
At 350 yds (1100 ft) 7.62 velocity 1314ft/s energy 471 ft lb 5.56 velocity 1755 ft/s energy 376 ft lb
So we (they) were very lucky he was so far away. Probably explains why there were so many injured vs killed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 05:58:26 pm
New interview with the brother. Totally bizarre. Over 30 minutes in front of his house. http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,284247.0.html
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: LadyLiberty on October 04, 2017, 06:00:12 pm
@txradioguy There would be variation on the rifle and ammo but some generic numbers for the ballistics figuring he was 1100 ft away.
At 100 yds 7.62 velocity 2008ft/s energy 1101 ft lb 5.56 velocity 2759 ft/s energy 929 ft lb
At 350 yds (1100 ft) 7.62 velocity 1314ft/s energy 471 ft lb 5.56 velocity 1755 ft/s energy 376 ft lb
So we (they) were very lucky he was so far away. Probably explains why there were so many injured vs killed.
Literally the difference between life and death for a lot of people. I haven't seen any data on it yet...but I'm wondering if the majority of those killed were closer to the stage area...i.e. closer to the shooter where bullet velocity and energy would have been greater.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 04, 2017, 06:11:23 pm
I heard that a hotel security guard was the first to enter the room, ahead of the cops? Isn't that kind of odd?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 06:12:49 pm
I heard that a hotel security guard was the first to enter the room, ahead of the cops? Isn't that kind of odd?
The security guard was responding to the fire alarm and got there before the cops did. He didn't enter the room but was hit in the leg when the guy shot through the door.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 06:21:06 pm
@txradioguy There would be variation on the rifle and ammo but some generic numbers for the ballistics figuring he was 1100 ft away.
At 100 yds 7.62 velocity 2008ft/s energy 1101 ft lb 5.56 velocity 2759 ft/s energy 929 ft lb
At 350 yds (1100 ft) 7.62 velocity 1314ft/s energy 471 ft lb 5.56 velocity 1755 ft/s energy 376 ft lb
So we (they) were very lucky he was so far away. Probably explains why there were so many injured vs killed.
You also have to consider these are calculated at zero angle. The ballistic drop of the bullet would be less from his height/angle and the projectile would retain more energy.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 04, 2017, 06:24:01 pm
... 10:14 p.m. ...Clark County Sheriff Joe Lombardo said later that officers coordinated with security guards at the hotel to gather intelligence and learn that customers had complained about hearing shots from the 29th to the 32nd floors.
“Some officers took it upon themselves to immediately go to the Mandalay Bay,” Lombardo said. “There was a team of six officers that approached security. They went up the elevators after discussing the situation with security and obtaining intelligence. They checked each floor, until they located were where they believed to be the room. Subsequently they approached the room, received gunfire, they backed off and SWAT responded.”...
...10:24 p.m. Up on the 32nd floor, police and security officers are closing in on room 135. An officer calls for a SWAT team after the gunman shot through his door and wounded a hotel security guard who accompanied the officers.
“We have a security officer shot in the leg on 32 floor,” an officer says. “He shot down the hallway and hit a security guard.”
10:29 p.m. As officers gather on the 32nd floor, there is still confusion about whether a second gunman could be on the 29th floor....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 06:27:19 pm
You also have to consider these are calculated at zero angle. The ballistic drop of the bullet would be less from his height/angle and the projectile would retain more energy.
@edpc I've never understood that but it is a good point. The 1100 feet was the linear distance. The angle distance adds another 50 feet to it.
To me the bullet is gonna drop based on the distance regardless of the angle, its just the angle has to be taken into account.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 06:41:58 pm
Newsweek retracted the story that the girlfriend was married to two men and had 2 ssns. They reported false info. http://www.newsweek.com/marilou-danley-gunmans-girlfriend-social-security-number-677033
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 04, 2017, 06:43:02 pm
Newsweek retracted the story that the girlfriend was married to two men and had 2 ssns. They reported false info. http://www.newsweek.com/marilou-danley-gunmans-girlfriend-social-security-number-677033
That's why only 12 people read their mag......
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 06:43:38 pm
@edpc I've never understood that but it is a good point. The 1100 feet was the linear distance. The angle distance adds another 50 feet to it.
To me the bullet is gonna drop based on the distance regardless of the angle, its just the angle has to be taken into account.
The zero point will also change with the angle. If I went to the range and zeroed my sight for 200m, the optics are accounting for the parabolic bullet trajectory at zero angle. With his position and angle, his ballistic path will be different and aiming directly at a 200m target will cause you to miss high.
Newsweek retracted the story that the girlfriend was married to two men and had 2 ssns. They reported false info. http://www.newsweek.com/marilou-danley-gunmans-girlfriend-social-security-number-677033
Not surprising. This kind of story brings out more disinformation than most. We don't really have any news source we can fully trust.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 04, 2017, 06:46:51 pm
Unfortunate though, the million others who are passing along the 'fact' won't know it was retracted and it will continued to be passed along and assumed to be 'fact' even when it isn't. Who knows how it evolves with the old telephone game.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 06:48:04 pm
Were did you get those figures? They seem inordinately low to me.
@Bigun gundata.org and compared to a couple other sites which had similiar data
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 06:56:25 pm
I think most people here are smart enough not to get suckered, but...
Apparently, there are a whole bunch of phony fundraising efforts springing up, particularly GoFundMe pages. A friend was telling me this morning about one of those pages set up for "Alice Brenhauer" allegedly one of those wounded in the attack. There was a real sob story about how Alice's husband was killed in the attack. She has no health insurance. Will need extensive and costly rehab. Blah, blah, blah.
Only...someone decided to do some digging and found out there is no Alice Brenhauer listed as a patient at any of the LV hospitals. And no one with the alleged husband's name is listed among the dead. My friend tells me the GoFundMe page has since been deleted. Don't know if there will be an investigation to find the scammer.
So if you are tempted to donate to any fundraiser related to this attack -- be careful.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Meldrew on October 04, 2017, 06:58:46 pm
@Bigun gundata.org and compared to a couple other sites which had similiar data
Quote
What makes the .308 such a good round? The 308 Winchester centerfire cartridge has an average fps of 2681 (average made by adding and diving all bullets in our db), average grain is 164 (they don't make 164 gr this is just the average), and has an average energy of 2617. These figures give this bullet a 4.4 out of 20 power rank using our algorithm. So it's not a shocker that the .308 would be a good cartridge.
Cut and pasted from your site except I added the bolding.
I think most people here are smart enough not to get suckered, but...
Apparently, there are a whole bunch of phony fundraising efforts springing up, particularly GoFundMe pages. A friend was telling me this morning about one of those pages set up for "Alice Brenhauer" allegedly one of those wounded in the attack. There was a real sob story about how Alice's husband was killed in the attack. She has no health insurance. Will need extensive and costly rehab. Blah, blah, blah.
Only...someone decided to do some digging and found out there is no Alice Brenhauer listed as a patient at any of the LV hospitals. And no one with the alleged husband's name is listed among the dead. My friend tells me the GoFundMe page has since been deleted. Don't know if there will be an investigation to find the scammer.
So if you are tempted to donate to any fundraiser related to this attack -- be careful.
It is a sad state, but I see fake sob story fundraisers almost weekly, many were caught around here after the hurricanes asking for donations only to find them turning around and reselling them. There was one lady near here, still operating too, that was caught raising money for tornado victims a few years ago in Oklahoma who was pocketing the money herself. Before we knew about this, last year we even loaded up two cars full of toys for one of her Christmas fundraisers, only to see a week or so later, her kids selling a lot of the stuff on garage sale pages. Sadly, she has a little circle of friends that are constantly defending her and she is still doing this crap. The police won't do anything because they are 'donations' to unofficial orgs, like a gift, and they say you can't prosecute someone for using a gift a different way than you intended.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 04, 2017, 07:09:22 pm
Until we are told of the motive, we will just be reading our own beliefs into his motives.
That's never going to matter or be good enough for some. If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS. Have some Excedrin nearby. I know it gave me a headache.
That's never going to matter or be good enough for some. If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS. Have some Excedrin nearby. I know it gave me a headache.
So he sold an airplane to a company that buys airplanes and just has to have DOD contracts, and... shock... the company that bought the plane still has it listed as an active registration...
Well that settles it.. Ancient Aliens did it.
Sheesh, talk about pulling a yuge conspiracy out of absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 07:36:19 pm
Until we are told of the motive, we will just be reading our own beliefs into his motives.
Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.
I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd. The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 07:41:59 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood . It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.
Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened. Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began, yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour. They must have known he was already dead. The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.
Why did he kill himself so early? Because his dirty work was done. The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point. I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists. The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector, was to commit a terrorist act. The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up. He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives. He may well have been apolitical like his brother says. He was, I think, caught up in an inextricable situation, did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price, and then shot himself.
Well, that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now. We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable. So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.
Well, for once, we have come to similar conclusions. The camera in the room is the key bit of evidence, and the destination of the live feed (evidence the act had been committed). This is the second terrorist act which made no sense, but had ties to the PI (Terry Nichols' wife, iirc, was from the PI, too.)
The other question is one of if this is proven to be the case, will that be revealed? In the instance of the OK City bombing, the link to the Philippines was pretty much suppressed, especially in the MSM.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 07:42:31 pm
This one will be a hot mess, indefinitely. Any investigating body from the federal government will be mistrusted. That many people involved will generate literally thousands of different and contradicting eyewitness testimonies. The 24 hour news cycle and rush to be first will generate misinformation and disinformation. Internet trolls will muddy the waters.
It will probably go on for years. People still believe the DC sniper had some connection to jihad.
Well, it wasn't some white man in a white van....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 07:49:24 pm
Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.
I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd. The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.
Just the way things are coming together so far, I really don't think this was politically motivated. He originally was trying to get rooms overlooking a different concert event that had an entirely different demographic (tween, teen, millennial, more 'liberal' in stereotype). Heck, Bill Nye was one of the headliners at that per their website.
I also don't think even if it were the country event that one could read too much into that. Country has become very pop culture and crosses all political boundaries now. This isn't your flag flying, Hank Jr. type of country. This is more Justin Beiber in a cowboy hat.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 07:55:25 pm
I had the luck of working on call with critical care medical equipment in the Baltimore/Washington corridor at that time. Company vehicle - white Ford Windstar. Good times.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 07:56:48 pm
Literally the difference between life and death for a lot of people. I haven't seen any data on it yet...but I'm wondering if the majority of those killed were closer to the stage area...i.e. closer to the shooter where bullet velocity and energy would have been greater.
I'm thinking some of the wounded were hit by ricochets off the pavement.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 08:06:25 pm
I'm not sniping at you but the numbers you posted just looked inordinately low for both cartridges and, as it happens, the were.
@Bigun I did a search and used the info it presented. Quickly compared to other sites which were close.
As you probably know there are a number of variables. My only point of posting that was both rounds lose significant energy at 350 yds vs 100yds and I thought that was a factor.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 04, 2017, 08:11:29 pm
I'm killing time in the Vegas airport right now, really eager to get home. I almost got caught up in it - we were walking to Mandalay Bay but we turned back at 9:30 at Tropicana because I was tired and had too much to drink. I never ever drink Champaign- thank the stars I did!
Spent many hours in a line yesterday at UMC to donate blood . It was inspiring to see the Vegas community pull together , in so many ways.
Might as well add my two cents - here's what I think happened. Keep in mind two salient points - the shooting stopped ten minutes after it began, yet the cops didn't breach the door for an hour. They must have known he was already dead. The security guard who was shot likely heard him off himself, saw the cameras so the cops acted slowly fearing a booby trap.
Why did he kill himself so early? Because his dirty work was done. The $100k money transfer to the Philippines is the second salient point. I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists. The ransom, after they found out the girlfriend was with a rich gun collector, was to commit a terrorist act. The money transfer was the signal Paddock had set a situation up. He'd apparently been looking for a suitable situation for several months - I doubt he was trying to target country music fans/conservatives. He may well have been apolitical like his brother says. He was, I think, caught up in an inextricable situation, did what he needed to do to pay the terrible price, and then shot himself.
Well, that's the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me right now. We all seek an explanation for the inexplcable. So much pain and suffering. Pray for Vegas.
@Jazzhead I love my family but I am not gonna murder a bunch of people as a ransom. IMO that changes nothing even if it were true.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 08:31:36 pm
I think a member of his girlfriend's family was kidnapped by terrorists.
I think that is hugely unlikely.
The guy gives up his life and murders a bunch of innocents for a family member of his girlfriend? If he's selfish, he doesn't do it (because he's dead). If he thinks of others, he doesn't do it (because he'd kill innocents). It would be a very weird circumstance, especially with the Starbucks manager report that he often berated her and implied she was for hire.
And if this was for terrorists, as others are guessing, then it works for them only if the terrorists get credit. Did any Philippines terrorist group make a credible claim for credit?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 08:36:12 pm
Literally the difference between life and death for a lot of people. I haven't seen any data on it yet...but I'm wondering if the majority of those killed were closer to the stage area...i.e. closer to the shooter where bullet velocity and energy would have been greater.
iPhone saved someone from what was (I'm guessing) a ricochet...
(https://i.redd.it/3dy3vmh8dupz.jpg)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 04, 2017, 08:37:42 pm
@Bigun I did a search and used the info it presented. Quickly compared to other sites which were close.
As you probably know there are a number of variables. My only point of posting that was both rounds lose significant energy at 350 yds vs 100yds and I thought that was a factor.
:beer:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 04, 2017, 08:42:45 pm
Yes, as will anyone trying to figure out a motive, at least unless and until there are witnesses to specific statements or attitudes or a 'manifesto' found.
I think the question has become one of whether he specifically targeted (not shot at, but targeted) this crowd, versus targeting any crowd. The former might be a political statement against a specific group, the latter, a 'statement' against us all, which would be more in the nature of the jihadi folks.
Have you seen any recent reports still talking about Full Auto? More recent seems to only discuss the Bump Stock. I am wondering now if none of them were really Full Auto.
...Twelve of the rifles Mr. Paddock had in his luxury suite on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino were outfitted with a “bump stock,” a device that enables a gun to fire hundreds of rounds per minute, like a machine gun, which may explain how he was able to rain such devastation on the crowd below, law enforcement officials said. Such devices are generally legal, and the possibility that he may have used them set off a fresh round of calls by Democratic lawmakers in Washington to pass more gun regulations after the tragedy....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 08:49:22 pm
Have you seen any recent reports still talking about Full Auto? More recent seems to only discuss the Bump Stock. I am wondering now if none of them were really Full Auto.
...Twelve of the rifles Mr. Paddock had in his luxury suite on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino were outfitted with a “bump stock,” a device that enables a gun to fire hundreds of rounds per minute, like a machine gun, which may explain how he was able to rain such devastation on the crowd below, law enforcement officials said. Such devices are generally legal, and the possibility that he may have used them set off a fresh round of calls by Democratic lawmakers in Washington to pass more gun regulations after the tragedy....
I would suspect, just from the time and cost involved in getting a real Class 3 gun, and if he applied for a legal transfer that would have been revealed already, that he only had bump stocks. On the images, one clearly had the Slide Fire brand (has a unique trigger area). They are cheap, no special checks needed, and install in minutes.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 08:53:27 pm
The trigonometry of terror: Why the Las Vegas shooting was so deadly OCT. 4, 2017, 3:00 A.M. http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-the-trigonometry-of-terror-why-the-las-1507085772-htmlstory.html
“He had a huge area of three, four or five football fields with people standing shoulder to shoulder,” Alphin said. “He was not aiming at any individual person. He was just throwing bullets in a huge ‘beaten zone.’”
Beaten zone is an infantry term dating to World War I. Shaped like the area a searchlight casts across a flat surface, it represents the area where bullets can strike, and moves substantially with tiny changes in the tilt of the gun.
If the shooter shifted by about 1 degree, or the width of two fingers held at arm’s length, Alphin said, the beaten zone would fall outside the crowd.
[...]
Excerpt.
Lots of stuff by LTC Arthur B. Alphin, USA (Ret.) (http://arthuralphin.com/about-me/), saying the shooter must have had training. With all due respect, I think he's wrong.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 09:09:29 pm
I would suspect, just from the time and cost involved in getting a real Class 3 gun, and if he applied for a legal transfer that would have been revealed already, that he only had bump stocks. On the images, one clearly had the Slide Fire brand (has a unique trigger area). They are cheap, no special checks needed, and install in minutes.
@thackney To answer you both, what we 'know' will be the narrative the Liberal Media want to present. As Class III arms are already ridiculously expensive (because, in part, of the restrictions placed on those made after 1986--thanks GHWB), the Libmedia wants to go after the po' boy alternative that requires neither the compliance costs nor the core expense of purchasing the arm. An AK-47 on the world market is a small fraction of the cost of a transferable weapon in the US, and will likely be newer and in better shape. the same price difference will be seen for a vintage transferable M-16 for the average schmuck vs a current production M4 for LEOs. So for Mr./Mrs. Joe 6-pack, the cost of the bump fire stock makes it an item that can be had, the Class III rifle cost-prohibitive.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 09:09:33 pm
The trigonometry of terror: Why the Las Vegas shooting was so deadly
Lots of stuff by LTC Arthur B. Alphin, USA (Ret.) (http://arthuralphin.com/about-me/), saying the shooter must have had training. With all due respect, I think he's wrong.
Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor. About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd. Perhaps the sphinx and obelisk in front was too much of an obstruction?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 09:10:16 pm
It is a sad state, but I see fake sob story fundraisers almost weekly, many were caught around here after the hurricanes asking for donations only to find them turning around and reselling them. There was one lady near here, still operating too, that was caught raising money for tornado victims a few years ago in Oklahoma who was pocketing the money herself. Before we knew about this, last year we even loaded up two cars full of toys for one of her Christmas fundraisers, only to see a week or so later, her kids selling a lot of the stuff on garage sale pages. Sadly, she has a little circle of friends that are constantly defending her and she is still doing this crap. The police won't do anything because they are 'donations' to unofficial orgs, like a gift, and they say you can't prosecute someone for using a gift a different way than you intended.
What about fraudulent inducement? I don't know. Has anyone talked to the local district attorney?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 04, 2017, 09:10:28 pm
What about fraudulent inducement? I don't know. Has anyone talked to the local district attorney?
I know one in Oklahoma is looking into it re the tornado incident and it has been in the news a few times, but they are very backlogged and haven't gotten to it yet.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 09:12:50 pm
Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor. About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd.
Shape is wrong. The higher you get, the fewer rooms, and doubtless, the more expensive. Also, lower floors would be able to see up better, and he might be easier to track. From the standpoint of wanting elevation and field of fire, the Mandalay Bay was likely the best choice.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 09:13:53 pm
That's never going to matter or be good enough for some. If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS. Have some Excedrin nearby. I know it gave me a headache.
@thackney To answer you both, what we 'know' will be the narrative the Liberal So for Mr./Mrs. Joe 6-pack, the cost of the bump fire stock makes it an item that can be had, the Class III rifle cost-prohibitive.
That's about the size of it right there. True automatic weapons are simply priced out of reach. I have a friend with a fully-auto AR15 that he bought in 1986 on the advice of a friend ("Shit the money if you have to, but get this weapon, you'll never have another chance!"), and today it's worth easily $20K (It's not even in pristine condition). I've fired it, and I'm sure it's not that different from a bump-stock. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I see no purpose in having one for myself, but I can only make that decision for myself and not anybody else.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 04, 2017, 09:20:49 pm
Both are operated by MGM Resorts. Not sure if that means anything in the casino world since I don't gamble.
No clue either. I stay in casino hotels a lot when going to conferences or just traveling because they are the best value and 5 star quality, but I never gamble other than a few bucks walking through.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 04, 2017, 09:26:04 pm
Makes you wonder if he tried to book a room at The Luxor. About the same distance, but almost a 90° angle to the crowd. Perhaps the sphinx and obelisk in front was too much of an obstruction?
Luxor is only 30 floors high, and there was seating grandstand on that side that might have blocked LOS to some of the "floor seating".
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: GrouchoTex on October 04, 2017, 09:32:11 pm
Some were familiar and members since around the 2K timeframe.
Well, I was a member from 2002 until last year and I don't remember them. If I trace their posting history, many of them were quiet for years until last year.
I still think JR reanimated some old posters to make his site look more populous than it is.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 09:41:25 pm
That's about the size of it right there. True automatic weapons are simply priced out of reach. I have a friend with a fully-auto AR15 that he bought in 1986 on the advice of a friend ("Shit the money if you have to, but get this weapon, you'll never have another chance!"), and today it's worth easily $20K (It's not even in pristine condition). I've fired it, and I'm sure it's not that different from a bump-stock. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I see no purpose in having one for myself, but I can only make that decision for myself and not anybody else.
By contrast, the price of the rifles on the FM Herstahl contract worked out to under $700 a copy for brand new M4s.
Quote
On 21 April 2012, the U.S. Army announced to begin purchasing over 120,000 M4A1 carbines to start reequipping front line units from the original M4 to the new M4A1 version. The first 24,000 were to be made by Remington Arms Company. Remington was to produce the M4A1s from mid-2013 to mid-2014.[21] After completion of that contract, it was to be between Colt and Remington to produce over 100,000 more M4A1s for the U.S. Army. Because of efforts from Colt to sue the Army to force them not to use Remington to produce M4s, the Army reworked the original solicitation for new M4A1s to avoid legal issues from Colt.[22] On 16 November 2012, Colt's protest of Remington receiving the M4A1 production contract was dismissed.[23] Instead of the contract being re-awarded to Remington, the Army awarded the contract for 120,000 M4A1 carbines worth $77 million to FN Herstal on 22 February 2013.[24][25] The order is expected to be completed by 2018.[26]
That's never going to matter or be good enough for some. If you want a sample of how twisted and paranoid people can get, check this thread at TOS. Have some Excedrin nearby. I know it gave me a headache.
Those people are mentally whacked and legitimately in need of help.
Post #72----"An element of the deep state gone 'rouge' ". Lol
I've been browsing threads and they are absolutely insane, almost becoming worse than 4Chan. If you can think of the most waked out conspiracy theory, someone has brought it up about this.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: GtHawk on October 04, 2017, 10:04:46 pm
So he sold an airplane to a company that buys airplanes and just has to have DOD contracts, and... shock... the company that bought the plane still has it listed as an active registration...
Well that settles it.. Ancient Aliens did it.
Sheesh, talk about pulling a yuge conspiracy out of absolutely nothing.
Wait for the next big revelation that ties him to a government conspiracy.....................he got his auto insurance through GEICO, whose (http://i40.tinypic.com/ab2mx2.jpg) looks suspiciously like an alien, coincidence? You decide!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 10:06:47 pm
Wait for the next big revelation that ties him to a government conspiracy.....................he got his auto insurance through GEICO, whose (http://i40.tinypic.com/ab2mx2.jpg) looks suspiciously like an alien, coincidence? You decide!
Those reptiles stick together....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 04, 2017, 10:07:14 pm
Wait for the next big revelation that ties him to a government conspiracy.....................he got his auto insurance through GEICO, whose (http://i40.tinypic.com/ab2mx2.jpg) looks suspiciously like an alien, coincidence? You decide!
On that FR thread, they were already putting out there he was a burned CIA agent or other stories like that.
It really reinforces my belief many are just trolls trying to see what crap they can spread.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 04, 2017, 10:50:15 pm
On that FR thread, they were already putting out there he was a burned CIA agent or other stories like that.
It really reinforces my belief many are just trolls trying to see what crap they can spread.
Certainly somebody must have metioned that this all happened on the same day OJ was released and that the faceless body shown in photos had black gloves, just like OJ wore.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 04, 2017, 10:56:11 pm
Certainly somebody must have metioned that this all happened on the same day OJ was released and that the faceless body shown in photos had blaxk gloves, just like OJ wore.
Heyyyyy.....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 11:09:26 pm
On that FR thread, they were already putting out there he was a burned CIA agent or other stories like that.
It really reinforces my belief many are just trolls trying to see what crap they can spread.
Money/multiple houses widely distributed/Philippine connection/multiple aircraft/foreign ties/High roller gambling All that's missing is the ties to drug trafficking (oh, and ties to agency black ops).
While some strange stuff has been thrown out, his lifestyle might well be the sort which could conceal large amounts of money being moved around off the radar. It is easy to suspect some sort of impropriety, especially in a group who are as suspicious of most wealthy people as the Socialists, and who would attribute that wealth to some sort of nefarious activity.
Whatever happened here, we may never know the absolute truth or the motivation of the shooter.
We are left with trying to interpret whatever events and facts we can sift from the internet dross and piece together.
Established: Profession: real estate Age: mid 60s Activities: High Roller Gambler Race: White Marital Status: Divorced, presumably straight, with girlfriend. Politics (still uncertain, and may/may not be relevant) Religion: (uncertain) Criminal record: None known Apparent gripes: (uncertain)
Which leaves us with no clear motive to shoot up a crowd of any size, much less to engage in the sort pf preparation/planning to do so. He had the means. He had the opportunity.
Motive is the big question mark.
This leaves us trying to assemble a picture of the guy's mental state and other factors which may have influenced him to commit this crime.
Was this related to business/gambling dealings? (Did he lose a 'bet'?) Was this a personal grudge? Did this arise from his relationship with the GF? Directly? Indirectly? Did this arise as a result of a physical problem (tumor, or drug abuse, for instance). Does it have a religious factor? (Jihad? Did he sell his soul for success, and ol' Scratch came to collect?) Did he have some sort of psychological breakdown and manage to conceal that during his preparations for the crime? Was this done under duress? (which leaves a few possible causes open to speculation).
We have to try to piece the mental state, his motive, from evidence, from the accounts of others ( less defining, because no one person ever completely knows another), and from any clues he may have left.
If this involves any sort of networked behaviour (radicalization, for instance) then that information may well not be forthcoming as part of an ongoing investigation.
That leaves sleuthing (which means there will be false leads and dead ends) and also leaves us at the mercy of official information releases and the spew of the press, which ranges wildly in accuracy and content and degree of speculation.
There will be brainstorming, under the circumstances, and some of it will be obvious nonsense, but still essential to eliminate in the process of finding any answers. Until we have enough info to eliminate any of those theories, we can't, and for all we know (and don't) there may be a convoluted conspiracy involved.
Until then, it's all theory.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 04, 2017, 11:24:40 pm
For some reason, @Smokin Joe , your post made me think of (https://hoaxteadresearch.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/col.gif)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 04, 2017, 11:31:34 pm
I enjoyed those shows and still catch one from time to time.
There is apparently either a lot more or a lot less to this than folks seem to think. I don't think we know the half of it.
Something is brother said today in that interview really started to make me think. Everyone is trying to pin all these different motives on him to avoid the scariest thought of them all.
He was a normal guy all his life, just like your neighbor, brother, coworker, etc, and something just snapped. Maybe a mental illness, maybe a tumor. It wasn't outside factors, it wasn't a criminal conspiracy, it was something that could be a lot closer to home for many people.
That thought is a lot scarier than terrorism, being a spy or working for a cartel. That something like a tumor or something in our brain's chemicals go haywire that could turn anyone into another Paddock.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 04, 2017, 11:37:58 pm
Something is brother said today in that interview really started to make me think. Everyone is trying to pin all these different motives on him to avoid the scariest thought of them all.
He was a normal guy all his life, just like your neighbor, brother, coworker, etc, and something just snapped. Maybe a mental illness, maybe a tumor. It wasn't outside factors, it wasn't a criminal conspiracy, it was something that could be a lot closer to home for many people.
That thought is a lot scarier than terrorism, being a spy or working for a cartel. That something like a tumor or something in our brain's chemicals go haywire that could turn anyone into another Paddock.
Charles Whitman had a pecan sized brain tumor. The findings were mixed, but neuroscience was at a different level then.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 04, 2017, 11:47:34 pm
I've been browsing threads and they are absolutely insane, almost becoming worse than 4Chan. If you can think of the most waked out conspiracy theory, someone has brought it up about this.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 12:05:53 am
They should consider some sort of ban on mentioning 4chan, or something, it was real aggravating to see that cited as if a legitimate source. Infowars is more or less, banned.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Silver Pines on October 05, 2017, 12:06:07 am
Where's Butterdezillion? I can't believe she's missing out on that.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 12:08:50 am
I saw earlier in the thread it mentioned that one did not recognize any names and other than BGill; I didn't recognize the names either. That place, yes, can get trolls for different causes. Anyway, I don't think we should be talking so much about them in this thread.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 05, 2017, 12:09:52 am
I know for sure many are just because you can see them post on both and bring the nutty stuff from 4Chan over. Some even used screen names that were unique to 4Chan language long before it was cool (and they are still there). There also were posts in the past, especially during all the birther stuff, about trolling FR and seeing how much they could get away with. In the past, they had many trolls from Something Awful come over as well. SA had an entire forum dedicated to trolling FR with tens of thousands of posts, called Jeepers Freepers (you can still find the public version of that forum if you search for it, they had several non-public iterations started a few years ago). Landover Baptist was also a big trolling front during the Crevo debate years and at least one obvious one from there is still a big respected member on religion threads.
I would bet at least a quarter to half of active posters are some sort of troll.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 12:11:30 am
Bringing up "over at 4chan" and this stuff, just destroys credibility, where you might have some legitimate talk. There are legitimate posters but these others are just trashing the place in the wake of this national tragedy imo.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 12:13:14 am
:threadjack:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 05, 2017, 12:17:57 am
Mandalay Bay shooter Stephen Paddock may have been a high-roller, but he lost a slip-and-fall lawsuit against a Nevada casino in 2014 — and still owed $270 in court fees when he killed at least 59 people Sunday, including himself.
Security video from the Cosmopolitan Hotel shows Paddock slipping and falling on Oct. 30, 2011, as he walked from a hotel shop towards a high-stakes area in the casino. Paddock said he had slipped in a puddle of liquid and sued the hotel in 2012, initially asking for $100,000, according to the attorney for the hotel, Marty Kravitz.
"They always ask for a lot more than they can get, but he got nothing," said Kravitz.
(more at the link) Paddock claimed 32K in medical bills, but lost.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 05, 2017, 12:23:00 am
That thought is a lot scarier than terrorism, being a spy or working for a cartel. That something like a tumor or something in our brain's chemicals go haywire that could turn anyone into another Paddock.
Exactly. Recall Brenda Spencer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego))?
The silicon chip inside her head Gets switched to overload And nobody's gonna go to school today She's going to make them stay at home And daddy doesn't understand it He always said she was as good as gold And he can see no reason 'Cause there are no reasons What reason do you need to be sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2I84-A9duY
And another possibility that many seem unwilling to consider is that there is no reason. No tumor, no conspiracy. A gang banger shoots up innocents and nobody bats an eye because his body count is so low. But this guy had the means to make an impact. Besides, white people aren't supposed to do that (even though the stereotype is to watch out for whites because of their mass-shooting tendencies).
Remember, there's something primal in making things happen.
(http://i.imgur.com/VNfLFfJ.gif)
Civilization might have taken that out of us so it seems inconceivable to act that way, but consider the upbringing of this guy...with a father who "sold garbage disposals during the week, volunteered for the local search-and-rescue team and counseled wayward youths in his spare time" (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/us/benjamin-paddock-stephen-paddock.html)...yet was a bank robber, con man, etc., and diagnosed as psychopathic. And his mother concealed the truth from him.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 12:23:10 am
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/casino-security-video-shows-vegas-shooter-2011-n807016 (https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/las-vegas-shooting/casino-security-video-shows-vegas-shooter-2011-n807016) (more at the link) Paddock claimed 32K in medical bills, but lost.
Bringing up "over at 4chan" and this stuff, just destroys credibility, where you might have some legitimate talk. There are legitimate posters but these others are just trashing the place in the wake of this national tragedy imo.
It's less about the places and more about garbage reports and disinformation, which is completely relevant to the subject. Threads will meander a bit, anyway, with the lack of new information and high interest in the topic.
Unclench.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 05, 2017, 12:28:20 am
Bringing up "over at 4chan" and this stuff, just destroys credibility, where you might have some legitimate talk. There are legitimate posters but these others are just trashing the place in the wake of this national tragedy imo.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 05, 2017, 12:31:35 am
I heard some of a press conference on this idiot on the radio. Everything we have been sold about this azzhole from his family is total and 100% bullshit. His brothers are either liars or just very stupid. The cop also made reference to this guy being a sicko and an all around piece of shit. I also doubt this guy had two nickles to rub together.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 12:35:43 am
Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) claims the attacker who opened fire on Las Vegas concert goers was only stopped “because he didn’t have a silencer on his weapon.”
I guess he believes he's still on the trail, echoing Hillary. A suppressor only makes it quieter, not silent. Besides, he wasn't using subsonic ammo, so the report would still be quite loud and the muzzle flash still visible. Also, the volume of fire filled his room with smoke and set off the detectors. What a clown.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 05, 2017, 01:00:33 am
This is the subject I was trying to broach the other day but just yelled and screamed instead. This article is from a couple of years ago.
How much more freedom are people going to be willing to give up if it means greater security? And how will that increased security actually stop something like this? It won't, if it is governmental in nature.
I have some other thoughts on this but I am exhausted.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: 240B on October 05, 2017, 01:07:40 am
How much more freedom are people going to be willing to give up if it means greater security? And how will that increased security actually stop something like this? It won't, if it is governmental in nature.
I have some other thoughts on this but I am exhausted.
The big lie about these incidents is the high rate of ownership, easy access to weapons, 'lax' gun laws, and magazine capacity/rate of fire makes these incidents more likely - perhaps inevitable.
Wrong. Places that have more restrictive gun laws still experience these incidents. See Utoya, Norway, Charlie Hebdo, and Beslan as examples.
Interestingly enough, one of the places with the highest rates of gun possession per capita (including fully automatic weapons) has one of the lowest rates of gun crime - Switzerland.
The report I just saw said that he had a dozen weapons, and thousands of rounds.
That's a lot of money. 20 to 30 thousand $$$ to pull this off.
And someone taught him how to hinder law enforcement.
He WILL turn out to be a Nancy Pelosi loving Leftist wacko. I have no doubt of that. But the money and the training, where did that come from?
If the suspect was really a multi-millionaire (having made money through gambling and real estate as reported), $20K to $30K would likely be in the noise, even less if he was planning on dying. This guy seems pretty smart to me. He may have done some simple internet research: how to hinder law enforcement in a sniper situation, how to set up video cameras, how best to break hotel windows, which guns are the best weapons from a sniper perch? If I had to guess, I'd say this guy is mentally ill, but I certainly wouldn't say definitely "he WILL turn out" to be anything. What I will say, is let's let the investigation play out to see what "he WILL turn out" to be.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: 240B on October 05, 2017, 01:43:14 am
Another DEAD Leftist wacko. Let them all die. If you want to kill yourself, then do it.
The tragedy can never be undone no matter what. But knowing that this Mu-Frkr is dead, that is at least some comfort. Die you bleep, die and die, the fact that he killed himself is icing on the cake.
In the afterlife, you cannot go out in a worse way than this piece of shit put on himself.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 05, 2017, 01:55:49 am
Las Vegas Strip mass murderer Stephen Paddock used his Mandalay Bay hotel room to fire bullets at jet fuel tanks Sunday night, a knowledgeable source told the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
The bullets left two holes in one of two circular white tanks. One of the bullets penetrated the tank, but did not cause a fire or explosion near the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, another knowledgeable source said late Wednesday.
The tanks are roughly 1,100 feet from the concert site, where Paddock killed 58 people and wounded almost 500.
Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) claims the attacker who opened fire on Las Vegas concert goers was only stopped “because he didn’t have a silencer on his weapon.”
I guess he believes he's still on the trail, echoing Hillary. A suppressor only makes it quieter, not silent. Besides, he wasn't using subsonic ammo, so the report would still be quite loud and the muzzle flash still visible. Also, the volume of fire filled his room with smoke and set off the detectors. What a clown.
Kaine is a pantload. The broken windows and smoke alarm going off pinpointed the shooter. Sure, noise helped, too, but shooting the Hotel security guard who came to the door to investigate the smoke alarm pinpointed the guy.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 05, 2017, 04:46:16 am
Las Vegas Strip mass murderer Stephen Paddock used his Mandalay Bay hotel room to fire bullets at jet fuel tanks Sunday night, a knowledgeable source told the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
The bullets left two holes in one of two circular white tanks. One of the bullets penetrated the tank, but did not cause a fire or explosion near the Route 91 Harvest country music festival, another knowledgeable source said late Wednesday.
Err..... bullets do not set tanks on fire like in the Rambo movies.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 05:19:36 am
Err..... bullets do not set tanks on fire like in the Rambo movies.
Two hits on something the sizr of a bulk tank at 1100 ft?
Out of hundreds, if not a few thousand rounds?
Someone is a sh*tty shot, if that was the target.
Most likely flyers from shooting at the crowd (muzzle climb), and likely examination of the ground/buildings between the concert venue and the fuel tanks will turn up a few more bullet strikes.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 05, 2017, 05:26:27 am
If the suspect was really a multi-millionaire (having made money through gambling and real estate as reported), $20K to $30K would likely be in the noise, even less if he was planning on dying. This guy seems pretty smart to me. He may have done some simple internet research: how to hinder law enforcement in a sniper situation, how to set up video cameras, how best to break hotel windows, which guns are the best weapons from a sniper perch? If I had to guess, I'd say this guy is mentally ill, but I certainly wouldn't say definitely "he WILL turn out" to be anything. What I will say, is let's let the investigation play out to see what "he WILL turn out" to be.
Doesn't seem that smart to me. If he was planning on dying and his goal was to kill the maximum number of people with the tools he had he knows how to fly and had access to aircraft. Had he flown a plane into that crowed he would have killed and maimed far more.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 05:36:25 am
Doesn't seem that smart to me. If he was planning on dying and his goal was to kill the maximum number of people with the tools he had he knows how to fly and had access to aircraft. Had he flown a plane into that crowed he would have killed and maimed far more.
Even playing with simulators you might find that hitting a spot on the ground is more difficult than it seems, especially when the approach has those buildings in the way (and other clutter). He may have been an adequate pilot but no crop duster.
A plane crash could have plenty of alternate explanations, but shooting up a crowd has shock value, is an undeniable terrorist act (unless some other attribution is given to the behaviour), and if the first few rounds miss, there is ample opportunity to shift fire and correct that.
With a plane he would have only one shot.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 05, 2017, 11:51:08 am
Kaine is a pantload. The broken windows and smoke alarm going off pinpointed the shooter. Sure, noise helped, too, but shooting the Hotel security guard who came to the door to investigate the smoke alarm pinpointed the guy.
It probably helped more to let those under fire realize they were under fire quicker.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 12:14:19 pm
Quote
Sheriff: Hard to Believe Las Vegas Gunman Planned Attack Alone
...
Possible accomplices?
Meanwhile, Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Sheriff Joe Lombardo said it is crucial to talk to anyone who knew gunman Stephen Paddock in the hunt for possible accomplices.
Considering the number of weapons Paddock collected and explosives he had stockpiled in his car, Lombardo told reporters he finds it hard to believe Paddock could have carried out the massacre on his own.
...
Lombardo said there were signs in Paddock’s hotel room that he planned to escape after his shooting rampage.
Read more at: https://www.voanews.com/a/sheriff-hard-to-believe-las-vegas-gunman-planned-attack-alone/4057301.html
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 12:14:58 pm
It probably helped more to let those under fire realize they were under fire quicker.
Hard to say, because many people - based on eyewitness reports and commentary on video of the shooting - initially believed it was fireworks. When you watch cell phone video of the concert, the noise you're hearing is the snapping of incoming rounds breaking the sound barrier. The actual gunfire is much more muffled anyway due to distance, concert noise, and potential wind direction. Without subsonic ammo, all a suppressor does with military ammo is change it from deafening to loud. Quieter at distance, to be sure, but people around the hotel plaza would still hear it easily.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 05, 2017, 12:18:13 pm
Sen. Tim Kaine (D-VA) claims the attacker who opened fire on Las Vegas concert goers was only stopped “because he didn’t have a silencer on his weapon.”
I guess he believes he's still on the trail, echoing Hillary. A suppressor only makes it quieter, not silent. Besides, he wasn't using subsonic ammo, so the report would still be quite loud and the muzzle flash still visible. Also, the volume of fire filled his room with smoke and set off the detectors. What a clown.
Because reducing the sound level from a Jet Engine to a mere Jack Hammer would be to difficult to detect?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Restored on October 05, 2017, 12:34:44 pm
Kaine is a pantload. The broken windows and smoke alarm going off pinpointed the shooter. Sure, noise helped, too, but shooting the Hotel security guard who came to the door to investigate the smoke alarm pinpointed the guy.
Apparently, he also is responsible for the end of the shooting. The shooter thought the cops were there and offed himself
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 12:42:54 pm
So, on the news this morning was the statement that law enforcement thinks he may have had help.
No, it's the sheriff's personal speculation he had help, at this point. He also says signs point to Paddock planning to escape, but doesn't elaborate. The guy's in danger of crossing into Chief Moose territory. Just give us solid facts, as they become available.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 01:12:08 pm
They are already guarding a lot of information from the public. So, there should be a total blackout? No thanks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 05, 2017, 01:13:57 pm
No, it's the sheriff's personal speculation he had help, at this point. He also says signs point to Paddock planning to escape, but doesn't elaborate. The guy's in danger of crossing into Chief Moose territory. Just give us solid facts, as they become available.
Quote
STEPHEN Paddock could have spent more than 20 years plotting his devastating attack on innocent people in Las Vegas, police have revealed.
By Vincent Wood
PUBLISHED: 00:58, Thu, Oct 5, 2017 | UPDATED: 07:37, Thu, Oct 5, 2017
Lombardo: Stephen Paddock spent decades acquiring weapons
Officials also believe Paddock may not have acted alone.
Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said: “At face value he had to have some help at some point and we want to ensure that that’s the answer
“Maybe he was a superhuman who figured this out all on his own but it would be hard for me to believe that.”
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 01:14:47 pm
Obviously, the Sheriff could have said something like this in case, someone out in the public saw anything, this guy with some other person, meeting in some clandestine place. No, I don't think the Sheriff was just infowars speculating on the case.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 01:15:45 pm
No, it's the sheriff's personal speculation he had help, at this point. He also says signs point to Paddock planning to escape, but doesn't elaborate. The guy's in danger of crossing into Chief Moose territory. Just give us solid facts, as they become available.
Hinting there may be more to this might bring out evidence that people would otherwise ignore if they thought this was an open and shut case. If people think it is solved, they might have seen something that is significant but blow it off because the case is solved in their mind and it could not have meant anything. However, if they don't think it is closed, some little thing they noticed might come to light that will give new leads into accomplices or motive.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 01:21:26 pm
I don't put great merit in what might happen on the Michael Savage show; but a survivor was on the Savage show, thought he heard multiple-shooters:
Right - so the quotes above confirm what I said before. He is not certain if the shooter had any help and personally believes he must have. His feelings aren't relevant to the investigation – only the evidence is.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 05, 2017, 01:32:36 pm
That at the moment is speculation and the source of the speculation is highly suspect. The Daily Beast is an arm of the lying Washington Post. Establishment leftists will do just about anything to prevent this attack as being seen as a attack by the left on the right.
"Paddock rented a room overlooking the Life is Beautiful festival in downtown Las Vegas a week earlier, Lombardo said."
He did in fact rent a room overlooking the Life is Beautiful festival so he had the opportunity to shoot it up had he wanted to. He didn't, he shot up the country music people instead. I'd say that adds more evidence to my contention that the shooting was politically motivated. He used the life festival as a practice run.
Right - so the quotes above confirm what I said before. He is not certain if the shooter had any help and personally believes he must have. His feelings aren't relevant to the investigation – only the evidence is.
@edpc And when Law Enforcement is concerned about terrorism, they say, if you see something, report it.
So, I think this goes beyond the idea that Lombardo is just expressing his personal feelings in the matter.
And if one keeps up with the story, the double receipts at the hotel for room service, sure, one could argue he ordered both of those for himself but now, whom is expressing their feelings? In general, double receipts at least represents the possibility of more than one person.
And he built up an arsenal of weapons in his hotel room, sure, it could be for one person but why deny, the possibility exists of more than one person?
This is a horrendous crime. Nothing wrong with asking the public for help, if they saw anything.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 01:39:44 pm
"Paddock rented a room overlooking the Life is Beautiful festival in downtown Las Vegas a week earlier, Lombardo said."
He did in fact rent a room overlooking the Life is Beautiful festival so he had the opportunity to shoot it up had he wanted to. He didn't, he shot up the country music people instead. I'd say that adds more evidence to my contention that the shooting was politically motivated. He used the life festival as a practice run.
Some have wondered if that was a dry run to plan the next attack. It would probably be easy to determine his intentions at the first event. Video of hotel activity at the time should still exist and you would see if he was bringing a large number of items to the room, as he did at Mandalay Bay.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 01:46:10 pm
Good points, he only had 30 weapons stockpiled in his room, he'd need a hundred in there to responsibly entertain the idea someone else could have been involved. 888sunglass
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 01:51:06 pm
Quote
Las Vegas shooter had 50 pounds of Tannerite in car: Why that's concerning
...
During the most-recent update, Sheriff Lombardo said police found 10 one pound containers of tannerite, two 20 pound containers of tannerite, and 1,600 rounds of ammunition along with an unknown quantity of ammonium nitrate inside Paddock's vehicle.
If any of this sounds familiar, that's because both chemical substances are widely used.
According to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), millions of tons of ammonium nitrate is used in the United States each year. While stable at an "ambient temperature and pressure," according to the EPA, it can be used as an accelerant for combustion.
Good points, he only had 30 weapons stockpiled in his room, he'd need a hundred in there to responsibly entertain the idea someone else could have been involved. 888sunglass
Normal human being, not Hollywood stars, only fire one weapon at a time. Particularly semi auto rifles. 30 weapons could arm 30 normal human beings.
Also the 30 is after the event who knows how many were there before the event. Let's not rule out the idea that there was another shooter until we are certain there was not another shooter.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 01:56:44 pm
@edpc And when Law Enforcement is concerned about terrorism, they say, if you see something, report it.
So, I think this goes beyond the idea that Lombardo is just expressing his personal feelings in the matter.
And if one keeps up with the story, the double receipts at the hotel for room service, sure, one could argue he ordered both of those for himself but now, whom is expressing their feelings? In general, double receipts at least represents the possibility of more than one person.
And he built up an arsenal of weapons in his hotel room, sure, it could be for one person but why deny, the possibility exists of more than one person?
This is a horrendous crime. Nothing wrong with asking the public for help, if they saw anything.
Yeah, sorry, but we can speculate all we want here. However, the leading investigator has a certain responsibility on what type of information is released and when. His musings are a fail.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 02:00:19 pm
Yeah, sorry, but we can speculate all we want here. However, the leading investigator has a certain responsibility on what type of information is released and when. His musings are a fail.
I don't buy your analysis that this Sheriff is irresponsibly stating his case. They are telling the public what they want, a lot of other info, they are probably guarding for themselves.
The chances of another party being involved is probably unlikely or remote per the info I've seen but is still possible.
Better to get this out now, before the case gets cold, say, saying this 10 days from now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 05, 2017, 02:06:40 pm
@TomSea That statement from them doesn't make sense.
Tannerite is completely legal. It is a powder that is typically used for exploding targets. Its not a high explosive and is much less dangerous than an equivalent amount of gunpowder.
10lbs of it would make a lot of noise and destroy a car. Probably hurt anyone close by but it wouldn't significantly damage a building. I was at a range in Vegas where we shot a old cab that had 8lbs of it. It made a big boom and threw the hood about 200 ft up in the air. The cars roof was bulged out but the car was otherwise intact.
The fertilizer is much more concerning. This can be significant more dangerous if its in sufficient quantity.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 02:11:46 pm
@TomSea That statement from them doesn't make sense.
Tannerite is completely legal. It is a powder that is typically used for exploding targets. Its not a high explosive and is much less dangerous than an equivalent amount of gunpowder.
10lbs of it would make a lot of noise and destroy a car. Probably hurt anyone close by but it wouldn't significantly damage a building. I was at a range in Vegas where we shot a old cab that had 8lbs of it. It made a big boom and threw the hood about 200 ft up in the air. The cars roof was bulged out but the car was otherwise intact.
The fertilizer is much more concerning. This can be significant more dangerous if its in sufficient quantity.
The article does not say Tannerite is illegal:
Tannerite is often used to form homemade exploding targets and according to the EPA, it is currently approved for sale in the United States. However, one case study found it can also cause severe injury to people.
According to the 2016 journal article, tannerite can "be used to form devices capable of inflicting major blast injury." In the patient studied, the person suffered a rupture of the tympanic membrane (inner ear), injury to the eye wall, and severe burns.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 02:11:54 pm
I don't buy your analysis that this Sheriff is irresponsibly stating his case. They are telling the public what they want, a lot of other info, they are probably guarding for themselves.
The chances of another party being involved is probably unlikely or remote per the info I've seen but is still possible.
Better to get this out now, before the case gets cold, say, saying this 10 days from now.
Right, because backtracking on something you should not have said in the first place really helps bolster your credibility in an important investigation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 02:12:30 pm
Normal human being, not Hollywood stars, only fire one weapon at a time. Particularly semi auto rifles. 30 weapons could arm 30 normal human beings.
Also the 30 is after the event who knows how many were there before the event. Let's not rule out the idea that there was another shooter until we are certain there was not another shooter.
Totally agree.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 02:14:13 pm
There should be plenty of cameras, close circuit TV; but on the other hand, I worked at the Holiday Inn Denver North on the mousetrap; hulking large hotel; but being of 1960s or '70s vintage, I'm not sure if they'd have all of these cameras in the present day.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 05, 2017, 02:14:24 pm
@TomSea That statement from them doesn't make sense.
Tannerite is completely legal. It is a powder that is typically used for exploding targets. Its not a high explosive and is much less dangerous than an equivalent amount of gunpowder.
10lbs of it would make a lot of noise and destroy a car. Probably hurt anyone close by but it wouldn't significantly damage a building. I was at a range in Vegas where we shot a old cab that had 8lbs of it. It made a big boom and threw the hood about 200 ft up in the air. The cars roof was bulged out but the car was otherwise intact.
The fertilizer is much more concerning. This can be significant more dangerous if its in sufficient quantity.
@TomSea That statement from them doesn't make sense.
Tannerite is completely legal. It is a powder that is typically used for exploding targets. Its not a high explosive and is much less dangerous than an equivalent amount of gunpowder.
10lbs of it would make a lot of noise and destroy a car. Probably hurt anyone close by but it wouldn't significantly damage a building. I was at a range in Vegas where we shot a old cab that had 8lbs of it. It made a big boom and threw the hood about 200 ft up in the air. The cars roof was bulged out but the car was otherwise intact.
The fertilizer is much more concerning. This can be significant more dangerous if its in sufficient quantity.
50 lbs of tannerite vs chevy lumina (at 1 minute in):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9FQeZrVQU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9FQeZrVQU) So, yes, 50 lbs is a significant amount. What's more, Tannerite is fast enough it could be used to detonate ANFO. Maybe he didn't have time to set that up.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 02:40:24 pm
Excerpts:
Quote
Vegas Killer Stephen Paddock Bought 33 Guns in One Year - $600 Rifle He Purchased on Way to Vegas Is Missing by Jim Hoft October 5, 2017
Officials with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms told CBS News on Wednesday that Las Vegas killer Stephen Paddock purchased 33 guns in the last year since October 2016. That averages out to around three guns per month.
...
Mass killer Stephen Paddock bought a high-powered hunting rifle just hours before he arrived in Las Vegas on his mission of death, DailyMail.com can reveal.
But bizarrely the rifle wasn’t one of the 23 weapon haul found by police in his sniper’s nest hotel suite.
If they have record of him buying that one rifle just hours before checking into the hotel; and they can't find it? Hey, you just have to wonder about it.
No wild speculation but... (http://marcstevens.net/NSPmedia/Images/Graphics/JoeFriday_JustTheFacts2.jpg)
I'm sure Sheriff Lombardo is working with the FBI, yes, that FBI that has dropped the ball on these domestic matters; but nonetheless, I'm sure there are some responsible persons in law enforcement.
Just the facts.
Addendum: Per the missing rifle: I'm sure they have searched his home... so, it doesn't say anything about that. It seems there is a possibility he could have dropped it off there, tool shed, storage facility, etc. if he bought it in his hometown of Mesquite Nevada.
Still, pretty suspicious, as if he didn't have enough weapons.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 05, 2017, 02:45:19 pm
If there were really multiple shooters...the number of dead would have doubled from what it was because you would have has continuous fire from two different positions raining down on that crowd. IMHO the shooting could have been more accurate too and not "spray and pray" like what actually happened.
Sorry folks...not buying into the tinfoil on this one.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 02:49:15 pm
If there were really multiple shooters...the number of dead would have doubled from what it was because you would have has continuous fire from two different positions raining down on that crowd.
Sorry folks...not buying into the tinfoil on this one.
Maybe accomplices were a no-show, instead and he decided to go it solo. That still seems like a lot of firearms for just one guy to have up there. Also, I saw a graphic which showed the rooms with broken windows were adjacent, but not connected. If correct, he would have had to go into the hall to go from one room to the other. FOr one guy, that doesn't make much sense, unless he broke the window in the other room to throw the police off, and then went into the one he was going to be shooting from. Otherwise, he'd be vulnerable to attack from the hallway when he changed positions.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 05, 2017, 02:54:58 pm
Maybe accomplices were a no-show, instead and he decided to go it solo. That still seems like a lot of firearms for just one guy to have up there. Also, I saw a graphic which showed the rooms with broken windows were adjacent, but not connected. If correct, he would have had to go into the hall to go from one room to the other. FOr one guy, that doesn't make much sense, unless he broke the window in the other room to throw the police off, and then went into the one he was going to be shooting from. Otherwise, he'd be vulnerable to attack from the hallway when he changed positions.
Maybe accomplices were a no-show, instead and he decided to go it solo. That still seems like a lot of firearms for just one guy to have up there. Also, I saw a graphic which showed the rooms with broken windows were adjacent, but not connected. If correct, he would have had to go into the hall to go from one room to the other. FOr one guy, that doesn't make much sense, unless he broke the window in the other room to throw the police off, and then went into the one he was going to be shooting from. Otherwise, he'd be vulnerable to attack from the hallway when he changed positions.
The graphic contradicts what I've seem from video shot in the room by a previous guest who stayed in the room last year that shows one sweeping room with windows in the same rom at both angles.
He was ready for a stand off with the weapons. Hence the reason he had so many. The cameras he had set up were so the cops couldn't sneak up on him IMO. That's how he knew to shoot through the door at the security guard checking out the noise and the fire alarm. Had he not offed himself and continued shooting a lot of those rifles he had would have been aimed at whomever was trying to breach the door and gain access to the room. With that many weapons he could have kept up a pretty continuous stream of fire at a fixed point and killed a lot of cops in the process.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 05, 2017, 02:57:03 pm
Better to get this out now, before the case gets cold, say, saying this 10 days from now.
If you really want to catch a second person, you often don't get it out there, so they lower their guard. Don't always trust police public statements for what they are truly thinking.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 05, 2017, 03:00:08 pm
It is very foolish to rule anything out at the start of an investigation. Do you know for a fact there was no another shooter? A very common infantry tactic is to create a field of fire. You don't just fire from one location if you have the means to fire from multiple locations. This is basic stuff that whoever planned this attack was smart enough to know.
Ruling out two or more shooters at the start of an investigation is stupid. And so is your tinfoil comment.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 05, 2017, 03:00:41 pm
If you really want to catch a second person, you often don't get it out there, so they lower their guard. Don't always trust police public statements for what they are truly thinking.
And in that same vein, I thought they admitted that there is information they are not releasing as of now. So, yes, this is orchestrated in my opinion, on what they are telling the general public. Not just haphazard remarks at a press conference.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 05, 2017, 03:08:22 pm
Maybe accomplices were a no-show, instead and he decided to go it solo. That still seems like a lot of firearms for just one guy to have up there. Also, I saw a graphic which showed the rooms with broken windows were adjacent, but not connected. If correct, he would have had to go into the hall to go from one room to the other. FOr one guy, that doesn't make much sense, unless he broke the window in the other room to throw the police off, and then went into the one he was going to be shooting from. Otherwise, he'd be vulnerable to attack from the hallway when he changed positions.
@Smokin Joe The article I read indicated the rooms had a door between them. I think he broke the second window for one of two reasons; 1) to get a different angle or in an attempt to clear out the room of the smoke.
I don't see any muzzle flashes on the video but its hard to tell. He was probably sitting back in the rooms and the flash was contained.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 05, 2017, 03:09:08 pm
LVMPD audio: ‘There are at least two shooters with fully-automatic weapons’ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2017/10/05/lvmpd-audio-there-are-at-least-two-shooters-with-fully-automatic-weapons/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 05, 2017, 03:13:12 pm
LVMPD audio: ‘There are at least two shooters with fully-automatic weapons’ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2017/10/05/lvmpd-audio-there-are-at-least-two-shooters-with-fully-automatic-weapons/)
Many potential explanations for that... echoing, seeing two broken windows, seeing shots from two separate windows at two different times, etc. The key would be to ask that transmitter what was meant by the statement.
Remember, many gun enthusiasts on various sites were sure it was an AK from the reports (i.e., sound). I think we can all agree that many conclusions were wrong.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 05, 2017, 03:13:54 pm
It is very foolish to rule anything out at the start of an investigation. Do you know for a fact there was no another shooter? A very common infantry tactic is to create a field of fire. You don't just fire from one location if you have the means to fire from multiple locations. This is basic stuff that whoever planned this attack was smart enough to know.
Ruling out two or more shooters at the start of an investigation is stupid. And so is your tinfoil comment.
We don't know for a fact that there was a second shooter. I'm not going to delve into conspiracy theory what if's on stuff like that. I'm sticking with the facts. I'll leave the conspiracy theory second shooter false flag stuff for Alex Jones and company.
I understand fields of fire very well. Which is why I stand by what I said that there would be double the number of KIA and WIA had there been two shooters creating interlocking fields of fire form those two shooting points. The spacing between platforms with two shooters would have been much more deadly than what ended up happening. Two shooters...had they planned it right would have divided up those weapons and brought continuous volumes of fire down on that crowd or at the very least one firing while the other reloaded and just alternated in that fashion.
As it is the amount of KIA was and the gaps in times when there was not firing going on indicate to me that he was moving between the two broken windows...firing from one platform...emptying the weapon then moving back to the other firing position.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 05, 2017, 03:14:36 pm
LVMPD audio: ‘There are at least two shooters with fully-automatic weapons’ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2017/10/05/lvmpd-audio-there-are-at-least-two-shooters-with-fully-automatic-weapons/)
Fog of war and initial confusion because of the situation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 05, 2017, 03:16:32 pm
LVMPD audio: ‘There are at least two shooters with fully-automatic weapons’ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2017/10/05/lvmpd-audio-there-are-at-least-two-shooters-with-fully-automatic-weapons/)
That only proves that ther was confusion as to exactly were the fire was coming from.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 05, 2017, 03:17:59 pm
LVMPD audio: ‘There are at least two shooters with fully-automatic weapons’ (http://www.dcclothesline.com/2017/10/05/lvmpd-audio-there-are-at-least-two-shooters-with-fully-automatic-weapons/)
That article talks of a second shooter on the 29th floor. Did they use magic bullets that pass through glass without breaking it?
Two shooters...had they planned it right would have divided up those weapons and brought continuous volumes of fire down on that crowd or at the very least one firing while the other reloaded and just alternated in that fashion.
As it is the amount of KIA was and the gaps in times when there was not firing going on indicate to me that he was moving between the two broken windows...firing from one platform...emptying the weapon then moving back to the other firing position.
But that's only the simplest explanation that fits the data best. There are other possibilities.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 03:22:55 pm
And in that same vein, I thought they admitted that there is information they are not releasing as of now. So, yes, this is orchestrated in my opinion, on what they are telling the general public. Not just haphazard remarks at a press conference.
OK, again........
“Maybe he was a superhuman who figured this out all on his own but it would be hard for me to believe that.”
Incredibly irresponsible and stupid for Sheriff Lombardo to say. If the investigation concludes he did act alone, then will Paddock be superhuman or will the sheriff just be a discredited fool? Officials already reported police had killed the shooter, before they had to correct that to a fatal self-inflicted gunshot wound. There's no grand orchestration by behind the scenes masterminds – just disarray and missteps that occur in the initial stages of large events like this.
The D.C. sniper just had to be a middle aged white guy in a van, because people saw it and it fits the profile. It had to be follow up jihad attacks, so soon after 9/11.
Wrong on both accounts.
The Unabomber had to be a young, poorly educated, current or former airline employee. They screwed that one up for over a decade.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 03:39:43 pm
Now, it would seem he cased the Lollapalooza event in Chicago back in August.
STEPHEN PADDOCK BOOKED HOTEL OVERLOOKING LOLLAPALOOZA 2 MONTHS BEFORE MASSACRE
Paddock booked one room for August 1, 2017, 2 days before the August 3 kickoff. Paddock then booked a second room for an August 3 arrival. Both rooms had an August 6 checkout ... that's when Lollapalooza ended.
The hotel directly overlooked the main stage as well as several adjoining stages. It also overlooks the main entrance and exit where thousands of people file through. And the hotel had a bird's-eye view of the crowd. We're told Paddock specifically requested both rooms be a "view room" which only face Grant Park, where the concert was being held. And here's the scariest part ... it's difficult if not impossible to flee because of Lake Michigan. Sources tell TMZ Paddock had never booked a room at the hotel before, nor had his girlfriend.
Many potential explanations for that... echoing, seeing two broken windows, seeing shots from two separate windows at two different times, etc. The key would be to ask that transmitter what was meant by the statement.
Remember, many gun enthusiasts on various sites were sure it was an AK from the reports (i.e., sound). I think we can all agree that many conclusions were wrong.
I am not saying that there were two shooters. Only that multiple shooters should not be ruled out at the very beginning of an investigation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 05, 2017, 03:49:52 pm
I am not saying that there were two shooters. Only that multiple shooters should not be ruled out at the very beginning of an investigation.
I'm with you on that. The sophistication of the set up would have made it very easy for a second or more shooter to have been in those rooms for the first few minutes and then walked out the door and disappeared down the hallway. Not saying that happened but it is certainly possible.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 05, 2017, 03:50:36 pm
There is certainly a lot more to this story than we are being told. I am sadden to see how easily some folk just take as gospel whatever gov tells them. Sheep. If you ask questions or have doubts you're told to go put on your tinfoil.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 05, 2017, 04:02:07 pm
I'm with you on that. The sophistication of the set up would have made it very easy for a second or more shooter to have been in those rooms for the first few minutes and then walked out the door and disappeared down the hallway. Not saying that happened but it is certainly possible.
That would be easily discernible, as the hallways, or at least floor by floor access points are usually monitored.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 05, 2017, 05:30:32 pm
That would be easily discernible, as the hallways, or at least floor by floor access points are usually monitored.
I'd lay odds that someone was in the room with him before the attack. Probably a prostitute and the cops have video of her entering and leaving the room.
There are a lot of cameras in vegas.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 05, 2017, 05:32:27 pm
I'd lay odds that someone was in the room with him before the attack. Probably a prostitute and the cops have video of her entering and leaving the room.
There are a lot of cameras in vegas.
If you were working the case and had someone on video would you talk about it?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 05, 2017, 05:43:43 pm
If you were working the case and had someone on video would you talk about it?
@Bigun I'd talk to the police. I sure wouldn't be going public. Not only a bad career move but likely to make any prosecution of people who helped him more difficult.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 05, 2017, 05:47:03 pm
@Bigun I'd talk to the police. I sure wouldn't be going public. Not only a bad career move but likely to make any prosecution of people who helped him more difficult.
Likely to make any such possible suspects go even further to ground.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 05, 2017, 05:58:36 pm
@roamer_1 And yet they had him located within about 10 minutes after it started. They did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
Yes they did and if the shooting was sfill going on, the shooter would have been dead on the 11th minute. There was a lot of unfair criticism at TOS becaue the breach did not happen for over an hour. But we know now that there was grave concern that there was booby traps or an ambush set up becàuse of the cameras, and earlier shots that came through the door striking the security guard. The police handled the clearing of the flood and textbook breach beautifully.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 05, 2017, 06:04:59 pm
@roamer_1 And yet they had him located within about 10 minutes after it started. They did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
Yeah, that's right. There was a whole lot of trouble coming down, and it is too easy to blame the LEOs for not getting there sooner... That is very unfortunate... I think they did a fine job... And the same to the first responders... Something this big is damn hard to slog through, and folks used to getting immediate satisfaction are unlikely to see the scope of things.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 05, 2017, 06:07:20 pm
Yes they did and if the shooting was sfill going on, the shooter would have been dead on the 11th minute. There was a lot of unfair criticism at TOS becaue the breach did not happen for over an hour. But we know now that there was grave concern that there was booby traps or an ambush set up becàuse of the cameras, and earlier shots that came through the door striking the security guard. The police handled the clearing of the flood and textbook breach beautifully.
I haven't been to TOS for 6 months and even then it was a mistaken click. I was wondering about the long delay myself but figured it would be explained. I dont think we knew he stopped shooting after about 10 mins until yesterday. He may have been working on his escape at that point. Not many places to go unless he went out a window.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: NavyCanDo on October 05, 2017, 06:21:07 pm
I don't know if I should find all the conspiracy nuts ammusing and entertaining, or be disturbed by how many people gravitate to believe this garbage. Here was one posted by a FB friend. A youtube showing flashes on the 12th floor, claiming the gunfire was actually happening from there and the 32nd floor was all fake. Of course the thread recieved dozens of replies from gullibul people, and the explaination for no broken window, it that it was removed and replaced in the dark of night. Last night on the news, a reporter with the hotel behind him, guess what could be seen on or about the 12th floor. A flashing strobe light, probably from a wall mounted security or fire protection device. Simple explaination. Unless of course the strobe was put up there by the government as a cover story for the gunfire flashes :silly:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Hoodat on October 05, 2017, 06:24:32 pm
@roamer_1 And yet they had him located within about 10 minutes after it started. They did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
Indeed. I'd echo the President's word - it was "miraculous". There's a lot that Las Vegas can be proud of, in the response of its police, first responders and thousands of citizens. A community came of age this weekend - that's the silver lining to this tragedy.
P.S. thanks to all who expressed relief that I'd made it back safely.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 05, 2017, 09:08:00 pm
I haven't been to TOS for 6 months and even then it was a mistaken click. I was wondering about the long delay myself but figured it would be explained. I dont think we knew he stopped shooting after about 10 mins until yesterday. He may have been working on his escape at that point. Not many places to go unless he went out a window.
Regarding the long delay time, they had to make sure the best they could that there were no bombs or other booby traps in the hall, etc. The had no idea what they were facing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 05, 2017, 09:09:22 pm
We don't know for a fact that there was a second shooter. I'm not going to delve into conspiracy theory what if's on stuff like that. I'm sticking with the facts. I'll leave the conspiracy theory second shooter false flag stuff for Alex Jones and company.
I understand fields of fire very well. Which is why I stand by what I said that there would be double the number of KIA and WIA had there been two shooters creating interlocking fields of fire form those two shooting points. The spacing between platforms with two shooters would have been much more deadly than what ended up happening. Two shooters...had they planned it right would have divided up those weapons and brought continuous volumes of fire down on that crowd or at the very least one firing while the other reloaded and just alternated in that fashion.
As it is the amount of KIA was and the gaps in times when there was not firing going on indicate to me that he was moving between the two broken windows...firing from one platform...emptying the weapon then moving back to the other firing position.
That makes sense, and I'm not promoting some conspiracy theory.
It doesn't pay me a nickel one way or the other, I just want to get at what happened there.
The graphic I had seen omitted the intervening doorway. If it is inaccurate, it is inaccurate. Thank you for clearing that up. If there is a doorway directly from room to room, that makes it a lot easier/safer to move back and forth, and allows doorways to the hall to be barricaded. The question is: were both doorways barricaded? Was either doorway barricaded? An escape plan might have included going out the other door when the LEOs went in.
I had figured the delays (as long as it took to empty a mag--about 10 seconds) were fumbling with drum magazines, which can be a pain in the rear to change compared to a conventional double-stack 30 round mag. Someone who is excited, shaky because they are doing something From the number of reports in a group on the early videos, I had ruled out a conventional 30 or 40 round magazine because these were taking 10 seconds from start to finish in continuous fire. The slightly longer delay (17 seconds) would be roughly the time to move from one window to the other and pick up a different (prepositioned) weapon.
That continuous fire told me the guy likely wasn't a trained soldier, who would more likely have fired in bursts for better control and to reduce the barrel heating. (Sustained fire like that, as I have been told, is not good for the weapon and can lead to rounds cooking off from the heat. It is only done when there is no alternative.) That may also have just been out of complete disregard for the 'health' of the firearms, and knowing he only had a limited time to get off as many shots as he could, and that he had plenty of other weapons to use.
Someone posted a quick rundown of energy loss over the 350 yards to the crowd. Basically, a 5.56 bullet will have lost half its muzzle energy by the time it arrives, from roughly 1200 ft/lbs to roughly 600 ft. lbs (70 grain bullet, which is heavier than the 55 or 62 grain ones in common use). A 7.62 bullet will lose about 40% of its initial energy. While still plenty lethal, the amount of penetration, hydraulic shock, and tissue necrosis in a wound (as well as organ damage from the temporary wound cavity) will be less than had the shooter been at close range. This, too may have been a factor in reducing the number of KIA vs WIA, and many of the accounts show those killed as having multiple wounds or having been hit in the head. For the person in the crowd, it was a complete crap shoot whether they got hit or not.
Despite the telescopic sight which might have initially put him on target or allowed him to see the effects of his fire, I do not think he was targeting specific individuals once he got the range.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 09:52:14 pm
That is worth remarking upon. canyons, and also high buildings, throw sound around. Not only the echo. Also the originating sound.
I watched my buddy knock down an elk, and I could have sworn he fired from off to my right/forward... and out he come, from my direct left.
What anyone heard on the ground can't be readily trusted.
True enough. I was walking down a streamside trail in West Virginia when it suddenly sounded like the guy walking behind me was speaking from in front of me. It worked both ways. We stopped and looked around, and across the little creek was a small anticline in the limestone with the middle hollowed out forming a natural parabolic reflector that made the sound seem to be coming from an entirely different point.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 05, 2017, 11:31:15 pm
True enough. I was walking down a streamside trail in West Virginia when it suddenly sounded like the guy walking behind me was speaking from in front of me. It worked both ways. We stopped and looked around, and across the little creek was a small anticline in the limestone with the middle hollowed out forming a natural parabolic reflector that made the sound seem to be coming from an entirely different point.
Add a little panic, and a bunch of high powered show lights, and shazzam blinky shit, and...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 05, 2017, 11:32:04 pm
That makes sense, and I'm not promoting some conspiracy theory.
It doesn't pay me a nickel one way or the other, I just want to get at what happened there.
The graphic I had seen omitted the intervening doorway. If it is inaccurate, it is inaccurate. Thank you for clearing that up. If there is a doorway directly from room to room, that makes it a lot easier/safer to move back and forth, and allows doorways to the hall to be barricaded. The question is: were both doorways barricaded? Was either doorway barricaded? An escape plan might have included going out the other door when the LEOs went in.
Seems there is an adjoining door to the corner wrap-around room. That room also has its own access to the hallway, where he had set up security cameras to warn him of anyone approaching his suite at the end of the hall.
"That room" also serves as the suite's bedroom, according to the foot print.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 11:43:57 pm
Add a little panic, and a bunch of high powered show lights, and shazzam blinky shit, and...
And a band playing. I thought I heard a comment on one of the videos asking where it was coming from. Confusion works against the targeted and in favor of the terrorist. OTOH, that may have kept the crowd from all stampeding in one direction, and that may have saved lives in the long run.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 05, 2017, 11:44:55 pm
Seems there is an adjoining door to the corner wrap-around room. That room also has its own access to the hallway, where he had set up security cameras to warn him of anyone approaching his suite at the end of the hall.
"That room" also serves as the suite's bedroom, according to the foot print.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 05, 2017, 11:45:09 pm
Some video from a different viewpoint from inside Mandalay Bay. Different angle and higher elevation, but similar to the perspective the shooter would have had. Fortunately, the phone camera cannot zoom in to provide clear detail, or it'd be more graphic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B4EKXzZqcKM
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 05, 2017, 11:47:28 pm
And a band playing. I thought I heard a comment on one of the videos asking where it was coming from. Confusion works against the targeted and in favor of the terrorist. OTOH, that may have kept the crowd from all stampeding in one direction, and that may have saved lives in the long run.
That's right. But there was no where to go... I am not much for crowds, a lot for that reason... this didn't change my mind.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 06, 2017, 01:40:39 am
Someone has stitched together the leaked photos of the room, but I'm just posting the link because it includes the graphic headshot. Click at your own discretion...
https://i.imgur.com/b1roJKZ.jpg
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 06, 2017, 04:56:22 am
Someone has stitched together the leaked photos of the room, but I'm just posting the link because it includes the graphic headshot. Click at your own discretion...
https://i.imgur.com/b1roJKZ.jpg
I've seen worse. Frankly I enjoy the headshot of that scumbag. He even got off easy.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 06, 2017, 11:20:28 am
1000? ^-^
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 06, 2017, 11:22:54 am
@roamer_1 And yet they had him located within about 10 minutes after it started. They did an excellent job considering the circumstances.
He was located by the hotel staff. A private security guard when to his room because a smoke detector had gone off. The guard was shot and the shooting stopped. An hour later Swat went in.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Hoodat on October 06, 2017, 02:43:26 pm
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 06, 2017, 05:08:15 pm
The story remains a mystery and I fear the case is going cold as far as motive. Huffington Posts jumps the shark here, ironically, those first two paragraphs are accurate descriptions, we are at a complete dead end per motive, etc.:
Quote
Stephen Paddock’s Motive May Have Been To Confound Us—And, Ironically, To Undermine The NRA Paddock could not have undermined NRA rhetoric better if he tried to, and he may have tried to. 10/03/2017 07:26 am ET Updated 16 hours ago
Four days after a wealthy retired accountant fitting no one’s profile of a terrorist (or deranged lunatic, disgruntled former employee, jilted lover, or mere angry loner) went on the bloodiest shooting rampage in U.S. history, we are no closer to knowing why. Four days is a long time not to know in this age of fast information. But as we desperately hunt for a motive, like a ticking bomb about to obliterate our collective sense of reason, it seems that defying understanding may have been Stephen Paddock’s studied purpose.
We know that far from snapping, Paddock planned his massacre with premeditated precision, at least days if not longer in advance. He cached an arms depot’s worth of guns and ammunition, including at least one fully automatic assault rifle, in a high corner hotel room perfectly positioned to rain hellfire down on thousands of densely corralled victims below. He used a mallet to break two windows with two different vantages over his target, and he set up surveillance cameras to record himself and/or alert him to advancing police. When police finally came for him, he wasted almost no time in killing himself, as if he were just turning the page on a script he had already written.
Continued at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-paddocks-point-may-have-been-how-easy-it-is_us_59d366cbe4b092b22a8e394f
Washington Post:
Quote
The former stepdaughters of Marilou Danley, the Las Vegas shooter's girlfriend, said their family has received dozens of death threats since the mass shooting. The former stepdaughters of Marilou Danley, the Las Vegas shooter's girlfriend, said their family has received dozens of death threats since the mass shooting. (Reuters)
Continued at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/10/03/new-details-emerge-about-las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-and-girlfriend-marilou-danley/?utm_term=.0e74bdcf12c2
Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains.
Maybe the crazy is how uncrazy this guy appears, yes, he apparently berated his wife at Starbuck's but I'm not sure if that even sounds that bad per what the workers say the guy said.
Pilot, no brushes with the law, accountant, letter carrier, IRS agent.
No online footprints, nothing. Books he read? We aren't finding anything out.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 06, 2017, 05:19:40 pm
@TomSea I would wager the authorities have more information then they've released.
I would also wager he has left footprints online, but he was smart enough to hide them. It all depends on if the FBI is good enough to find them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 06, 2017, 05:23:46 pm
The story remains a mystery and I fear the case is going cold as far as motive. Huffington Posts jumps the shark here, ironically, those first two paragraphs are accurate descriptions, we are at a complete dead end per motive, etc.:
Washington Post:
Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains.
Maybe the crazy is how uncrazy this guy appears, yes, he apparently berated his wife at Starbuck's but I'm not sure if that even sounds that bad per what the workers say the guy said.
Pilot, no brushes with the law, accountant, letter carrier, IRS agent.
No online footprints, nothing. Books he read? We aren't finding anything out.
It seems on all sides, motivation is a big Rorschach Test. What people are seeing in the motivation is more a reflection of themselves than what's actually on the paper. What's going to be interesting is when the real motivation comes out, will people believe it or will they have so convinced themselves of the breadcrumbs that led to their own belief, they will reject it?
(https://wallpapercave.com/wp/OZdImG7.png)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 06, 2017, 05:40:48 pm
He was under some medication and according to the wife, laid in bed and screamed and moan. So, those are those two things.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 06, 2017, 05:48:44 pm
He was under some medication and according to the wife, laid in bed and screamed and moan. So, those are those two things.
@TomSea He obviously had an untreated mental illness. A mental illness that if diagnosed would have made him ineligible for a pilots license and probably to buy a firearm.
There is no way the MSM will talk about this.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 06, 2017, 05:53:42 pm
It seems on all sides, motivation is a big Rorschach Test. What people are seeing in the motivation is more a reflection of themselves than what's actually on the paper. What's going to be interesting is when the real motivation comes out, will people believe it or will they have so convinced themselves of the breadcrumbs that led to their own belief, they will reject it?
(https://wallpapercave.com/wp/OZdImG7.png)
Well said.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 06, 2017, 05:54:05 pm
Perhaps he knew his time wasn't long and wanted to see if he could commit the "perfect horror" - one that would perfectly confound the world with its lack of "motive" and put him in the history books for all time. I keep coming back to the mystery of why he offed himself so quickly after the cops found his room - seemingly as methodical a decision as those he had made leading up to his killing spree.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 06, 2017, 05:54:56 pm
Perhaps he knew his time wasn't long and wanted to see if he could commit the "perfect horror" - one that would perfectly confound the world with its lack of "motive" and put him in the history books for all time. I keep coming back to the mystery of why he offed himself so quickly after the cops found his room - seemingly as methodical a decision as those he had made leading up to his killing spree.
@Jazzhead I think the comment he made to a friend while drunk in the casino gives a clue. Apparently this was said a while back. He told the guy he wished he could just kill his mother for inflicting life on him.
I think he was a very troubled person who should have been diagnosed and treated but wasn't because his high intelligence level allowed him to hide it when necessary. For some reason he had convinced himself that committing this attack was his purpose and probably expected some kind of almost sexual gratification from it. He stopped shooting after about 10 mins after the guards approached the room.
At that point he may have realized it wasn't the answer he was looking for and he was too much of a coward to answer for it.
A pastor taught me a saying, that people have a God shaped hole in their heart and they try filling it with things like drugs, booze, sex and gambling. He thought committing a mass murder would give him peace in some twisted way. Maybe as a payback against his mother and father.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 06, 2017, 06:07:12 pm
@TomSea He obviously had an untreated mental illness. A mental illness that if diagnosed would have made him ineligible for a pilots license and probably to buy a firearm.
There is no way the MSM will talk about this.
Much easier to just blame the firearms. Doing so fits the Democrat narrative and the media only tells us what fits that narrative. That Paddock may have been mentally ill, and mental illness is inadequately treated is not part of the left's agenda.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 06, 2017, 06:31:13 pm
Perhaps he knew his time wasn't long and wanted to see if he could commit the "perfect horror" - one that would perfectly confound the world with its lack of "motive" and put him in the history books for all time. I keep coming back to the mystery of why he offed himself so quickly after the cops found his room - seemingly as methodical a decision as those he had made leading up to his killing spree.
Yes, this is me speculating the way I said we shouldn't go too far in doing, but just a thought...
Assuming he was mentally ill, plus a super loner like his brother said, I wonder if he wanted to find a way to go down in the history books. Not just as you said, a perfect horror for motivation, but he wanted some sort of fame or attention he didn't get in real life. He may have imagined movies being made about what he did and his name always on people's mind like John Wayne Gacy or Jack the Ripper. He wanted to make himself famous in the most infamous way.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 06, 2017, 06:45:21 pm
I would only add that, only this loving, omniscient God knows what was in his heart and whether or not he asked forgiveness and accepted His Love and Grace before he died.
And that there would be no human study of "neuroscience" without an omniscient God. Putting man's knowledge above God's is a dangerous thing to do.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 06, 2017, 07:22:18 pm
I think the comment he made to a friend while drunk in the casino gives a clue. Apparently this was said a while back. He told the guy he wished he could just kill his mother for inflicting life on him.
Oh, good Lord. I hope no one ever intends to define me by the asinine things I have said in a drunken stupor.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 06, 2017, 07:52:39 pm
I have no trouble worshiping a God who allows people to choose, and who has since he created them. If you are given a choice to get on a boat and leave an island on fire, but decide not to board, whose fault is that? The boat's? The Island's? Or yours?
The reason I said it is left to a higher Judge is just the concept that there may have been some factor such as a brain tumor rather than some intellectual, spiritual, or other decision on his part. Obviously we don't know what motivated this guy, we don't know him even superficially, much less what was going on inside his brain. Don't we give those who are non compos mentis a reprieve from their guilt because they are not in their right mind? I would think that our Creator would make allowances for such malfunctions.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 06, 2017, 07:56:03 pm
Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that. There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it. It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.
But this is an age-old theological debate. My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system. Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real). Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence? I don't know.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 06, 2017, 07:56:57 pm
Much easier to just blame the firearms. Doing so fits the Democrat narrative and the media only tells us what fits that narrative. That Paddock may have been mentally ill, and mental illness is inadequately treated is not part of the left's agenda.
If untreated mental illness was a priority, many university campuses would become Asylums overnight, and much of the Democrat party would be lining up for meds...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 06, 2017, 08:01:11 pm
Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that. There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it. It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.
But this is an age-old theological debate. My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system. Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real). Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence? I don't know.
I can't prove what I saw when I had pneumonia was real, I only know I was told to go back, it was not yet my time. Some might say that it was a hallucination brought on by hypoxia, yadda yadda yadda....but no. There is a 'there' there.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 06, 2017, 08:05:39 pm
But this is an age-old theological debate. My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system. Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real). Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence? I don't know.
Your observations are taken from behind enemy lines... from within the curse. We sold our right, and the current holder exercises our lease on this world. The good news is that the price to buy the lease out was paid 2k years ago, and the Owner of the place is fixin to evict.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 06, 2017, 08:13:41 pm
Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that. There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it. It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.
But this is an age-old theological debate. My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system. Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real). Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence? I don't know.
This is not really the place for this discussion, but I will just add that, it was because of the free choice of a created being to rebel against God that the "system" as you call it, was set up. There would be no need for punishment if we were all obedient, but because we all choose not to obey, there is a "system" of punishment (with which you disagree).
That is the reason that the sacrifice of God's Son was necessary (as @Mom MD stated), and through Christ's sacrifice we ALL have the opportunity to accept the 'way out' of the system........ God's Grace.
I would caution again your putting finite human reasoning above an Almighty, Omniscient God. Neuroscience and Psychology, and even criminal justice, are just attempts to understand what God has designed.......... whether we accept that or not.
Well, remember, if He's omnipotent and The Creator, He chose that. There is no need for torment or penalty except that He created it. It wouldn't even take a wave of His hand to dispel, if He wanted to.
But this is an age-old theological debate. My point is that it's debatable, and I find it very difficult to appreciate an entity who would set up such a system. Perhaps it's meant as a deterrent, but if that were the case, we know from psychology and criminal justice that there are aspects by which deterrence could be improved (e.g., prove that the afterlife actually is real, and that hell is real). Would a perfect God set up imperfect deterrence? I don't know.
I hope you find the answers you are seeking some day and the Peace that comes with knowing
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 06, 2017, 08:15:25 pm
I have no trouble worshiping a God who allows people to choose, and who has since he created them. If you are given a choice to get on a boat and leave an island on fire, but decide not to board, whose fault is that? The boat's? The Island's? Or yours?
The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real. Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."
The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.
Quote
The reason I said it is left to a higher Judge is just the concept that there may have been some factor such as a brain tumor rather than some intellectual, spiritual, or other decision on his part. Obviously we don't know what motivated this guy, we don't know him even superficially, much less what was going on inside his brain. Don't we give those who are non compos mentis a reprieve from their guilt because they are not in their right mind? I would think that our Creator would make allowances for such malfunctions.
I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me. There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however.
But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances? And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Hoodat on October 06, 2017, 08:24:01 pm
The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.
It's called 'Free Will'.
I got news for you. God is not a micro-manager.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 06, 2017, 08:28:19 pm
The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real. Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."
The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.
I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me. There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however.
But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances? And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.
Just one (very important) point................... it's not a "guess."
We've been given all the information we need in great detail. No guesswork is required.
You're still imposing your own seriously limited reasoning on an Infinite plan.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 06, 2017, 08:37:04 pm
The boat would have to be invisible, and you are told that it's around the corner and you have to just jump into the water and hope it's real. Pascal aside, I think we'd agree that we're talking about sincere belief for salvation, not just "I'm hoping it's out there."
The analogy continued would presume there's someone standing there with a firehose, and he decides to just let you burn and die because you guessed wrongly.
I'm glad to know that's what you believe, and it doesn't surprise me. There are people out there who take a "stricter" view, however.
But given work by Libet, and Wegner and Wheatley, showing we don't truly have free will, should we not all have such allowances? And knowing we are flawed with imperfect intellect and imperfect faith, perhaps some chance of rehabilitation rather than eternal torment for a wrong guess, would be a more admirable system.
When someone gives you an exit out of a burning building it is not the best course of action to complain you don’t like that particular door. I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore. May you be blessed in your search
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 06, 2017, 08:38:43 pm
I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore. May you be blessed in your search
Agreed, and thank you.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 06, 2017, 08:43:23 pm
When someone gives you an exit out of a burning building it is not the best course of action to complain you don’t like that particular door. I’m sorry religion forums become so contentious it would be nice to have a place to discuss such things I am available by PM any time you want to continue a discussion but I will respect the rules of this place and not say anymore. May you be blessed in your search
And, to add to that excellent statement, I am so glad to see you persist in your search.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 06, 2017, 08:58:49 pm
I hope you find the answers you are seeking some day and the Peace that comes with knowing
We are either robots executing a program or we have free will.
Robots executing a program removes all value of our lives. There's no meaning to love, hate, achievement, discovery, sacrifice for others, etc. without free will.
So that's what it comes down to. Either we have free will and suffer the consequences both good and bad or we have nothing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 06, 2017, 09:01:32 pm
Quote
They've been left scratching their heads over two mysteries involving a mobile found charger and a hotel key card.
The charger doesn't match any of the phones belonging to the 64-year-old gunman, who checked into the hotel three days before Sunday night's rampage.
And hotel garage records show that one of his key cards was used to enter his suite after his car had left the garage for a period of time, sources have told NBC News.
Continued at: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hotel-key-card-phone-charger-11301191
The part about parking, seems like it won't be easy to explain away. Sure, he could have gone through the lobby and parked the car outside or something.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 06, 2017, 09:05:18 pm
The part about parking, seems like it won't be easy to explain away. Sure, he could have gone through the lobby and parked the car outside or something.
That's interesting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 06, 2017, 09:07:16 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 06, 2017, 09:07:41 pm
I would caution again your putting finite human reasoning above an Almighty, Omniscient God. Neuroscience and Psychology, and even criminal justice, are just attempts to understand what God has designed.......... whether we accept that or not.
We are either robots executing a program or we have free will.
Robots executing a program removes all value of our lives. There's no meaning to love, hate, achievement, discovery, sacrifice for others, etc. without free will.
So that's what it comes down to. Either we have free will and suffer the consequences both good and bad or we have nothing.
Or puppets with God being the puppeteer. :beer:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 06, 2017, 11:01:37 pm
Hell was created for Satan and his lackeys, not for us. The Bible explicitly says that He doesn't want any of us to go there. But we can't enter into the presence of a completely holy God bearing even a trace of sin. The sacrifice to expiate that sin was given 2000 years ago. We can accept it, or not. We bear the responsibility for the consequences of that choice.
And that's all I'm saying. :laugh:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: musiclady on October 07, 2017, 12:47:28 am
Hell was created for Satan and his lackeys, not for us. The Bible explicitly says that He doesn't want any of us to go there. But we can't enter into the presence of a completely holy God bearing even a trace of sin. The sacrifice to expiate that sin was given 2000 years ago. We can accept it, or not. We bear the responsibility for the consequences of that choice.
And that's all I'm saying. :laugh:
You said it well, Catherine!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 07, 2017, 12:55:46 am
TomSea wrote: "Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."
Wait a minute. The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself. Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.
Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 01:09:30 am
TomSea wrote: "Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."
Wait a minute. The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself. Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.
Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.
TomSea wrote: "Right now, we are at a dead end and that may be how it remains."
Wait a minute. The guy set up a camera inside the room to record himself. Chances are, he probably made at least a few words of comment before he began firing, perhaps something more.
Let's have a look at the video, before giving up on the motive.
Other things:
From : https://constitution.com/something-missing-las-vegas-shooters-room-authorities-spooked/ (https://constitution.com/something-missing-las-vegas-shooters-room-authorities-spooked/)
Quote
“Mass killer Stephen Paddock bought a high-powered hunting rifle just hours before he arrived in Las Vegas on his mission of death, DailyMail.com can reveal.
“But bizarrely the rifle wasn’t one of the 23 weapon haul found by police in his sniper’s nest hotel suite.
“Paddock paid $600 for a Ruger American .308 bolt-action rifle with an 18-inch barrel and four round capacity from Guns & Guitars in his hometown of Mesquite.
“He then calmly drove 80 miles to check in at the Mandalay Bay hotel on the Vegas Strip from where he rained bullets down on the Route 91 Harvest music festival killing 59 people and injuring a further 537.
“A gunsmith at the store revealed Paddock was ‘calm and normal’ when he bought the weapon at around 3pm on September 28.”
and from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4949534/Stephen-Paddock-bought-mystery-rifle-going-Vegas.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4949534/Stephen-Paddock-bought-mystery-rifle-going-Vegas.html)....(just to end some speculation)
Quote
'The guy was just a regular gun enthusiast, there was nothing special about him,' Skipper said.
'He's not religious, he never talked about religion, he never talked about politics.'
The worker said Paddock's girlfriend, Marilou Danley, who police named a person of interest in the case, also came in to the shop once.
'The only time we saw Marilou, Stephen was in the store looking around, talking to Chris and I guess she was in the car and she opens the door and says, "Are you done?"
'And he says, "Yeah, I'll just be a second," that was the only time we saw her. He was totally pleasant to her, just said "I'll be a second, no problem."'
Which belies the 'abusive boyfriend' meme.
Skipper works at Guns and Guitars. From that same article:
Quote
He says Paddock bought just one of the guns that was found in his hotel suite from Guns & Guitars – a Sig Sauer 716.
The Swiss/German made rifle fires large-caliber 7.62mm rounds, and is a highly accurate weapon from the AR10 range of guns. These weapons usually sell for around $3,500.
Also, (same article)
Quote
'I know he liked country music so then I'm thinking he must have been after someone he knows, that was my first thought.
So that throws the music critic aspect out (unless he really didn't like the bands playing).
No one can control the ultimate use of an item once they sell it. That rifle might save a calf from coyotes, just punch paper, or be used to save a life by stopping a bad guy. Just like that big kitchen knife might carve turkey or ham at thanksgiving or be used to slash people on the subway. Unfortunately, people are attacking the merchants in this, too, as if they were prescient enough to somehow prevent that item from being used in a way we would all agree was just wrong.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 07, 2017, 01:51:15 am
driftdiver wrote: "Apparently the cameras inside weren't recording. They were live streaming."
In that case, find out "where the stream went". If it got onto the internet, it probably got recorded -somewhere-. Where?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 01:51:59 am
Apparently the cameras inside weren't recording. They were live streaming.
I guess the question that may be really interesting is one of where that streaming video went. That might answer a boatload of questions, and there remains the one of if it was recorded anywhere.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 07, 2017, 02:05:12 am
The second broken out window may have given him view to a different target. Approaching police, etc. He apparently shot the jet fuel tanks a fair ways behind the venue so he had more targets in mind beyond just the music festival crowd alone.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 02:10:24 am
The second broken out window may have given him view to a different target. Approaching police, etc. He apparently shot the jet fuel tanks a fair ways behind the venue so he had more targets in mind beyond just the music festival crowd alone.
My guess is the fuel tanks weren't a target. It was simply barrel climb that resulted in those. He simply couldn't control the weapon.
That's certainly possible. I suppose it is also possible those bullets came from somewhere else... They may not have noticed the holes until they started looking...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 02:18:13 am
If he meant to, I think it'd be tracers. a regular round wouldn't set em off. Heck, a tracer might not.
I think you would have to have enough of a combustible mix to set off a tank of any kind of fuel. Same way your car engine works. Air and fuel mixture. So maybe a tracer could set off a partially filled tank, but not a full one.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 07, 2017, 02:41:27 am
My guess is the fuel tanks weren't a target. It was simply barrel climb that resulted in those. He simply couldn't control the weapon.
That was my thought. I am sure he was spraying bullets everywhere if he was using bump stocks (very difficult to aim). The airport is just across the road from the concert venue and I'm sure took many stray rounds. Plus, I doubt a .223 would have the remaining energy to puncture a fuel tank from that distance (albeit who knows if he was aware of this).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 02:42:55 am
Paddock was trying to get tracers... I guess he did obtain them. https://www.yahoo.com/news/las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-165009332.html http://wishtv.com/2017/10/06/las-vegas-shooter-bought-1000-tracer-bullets/
"Paddock bought the .308-caliber and .223-caliber tracer ammunition from a private buyer he met at a Phoenix gun show last month, a law enforcement official not authorized to comment on the investigation said on condition of anonymity.
Tracer rounds illuminate their path so a gunman can home in on targets at night. But they can also give away the shooter’s position."
I dont think he used them.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 02:43:15 am
I had some steel 'plinking' targets made for a .22. Probably 1/2 inch thick. I decided to fire a few with an AK (7.62x39), went right through like it was cardboard.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 02:50:51 am
I had some steel 'plinking' targets made for a .22. Probably 1/2 inch thick. I decided to fire a few with an AK (7.62x39), went right through like it was cardboard.
I like 300WinMag for 'reach out and touch someone'... up from a 7mm mag, which got out there, but ran out of poo. but I could drive tacks with that rifle. still trying to get the 300Win settled in. but still on a Rem700 frame.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 07, 2017, 02:51:22 am
Paddock was trying to get tracers... I guess he did obtain them. https://www.yahoo.com/news/las-vegas-shooter-stephen-paddock-165009332.html http://wishtv.com/2017/10/06/las-vegas-shooter-bought-1000-tracer-bullets/
"Paddock bought the .308-caliber and .223-caliber tracer ammunition from a private buyer he met at a Phoenix gun show last month, a law enforcement official not authorized to comment on the investigation said on condition of anonymity.
Tracer rounds illuminate their path so a gunman can home in on targets at night. But they can also give away the shooter’s position."
In that spirit, it’s handy to live by Poynter’s rules for breaking news. Be wary of anonymous sources, language like “seeking confirmation,” and wild speculation. If you see an image that looks implausible, or downright impossible, run it through reverse image search (which is to say, just click and drag it over to Google, which will show you where else the photo has appeared).
To that, add one more: Slow down. Listen to what law enforcement has confirmed, not what Twitter has speculated. Trust circumspection ahead of volume. The internet’s great promise is to provide you with as much information as you could ever possibly want. Its great danger is that most of it is junk
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 03:17:36 am
My guess is the fuel tanks weren't a target. It was simply barrel climb that resulted in those. He simply couldn't control the weapon.
My guess as well. had they been the targets, he would not have expended so much ammo on the crowd, and would have left more holes in the tanks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 07, 2017, 03:34:28 am
I wonder if the tanks are lighted up at night. If they aren't it may have been difficult to even see them to try to target.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 07, 2017, 04:54:28 am
This report says that they've determined he was the only attacker. They don't know if others were aware of his plans or not. That they have a lot of video evidence from the hotel on who went in and out. This report also changes the previous stories (the fire alarm to door ajar) on how the security guard got shot in the leg and what led the guard to the room in the first place. It also address his car and the card key access to his room timing in earlier reports.
But you know someone will claim this LA Times report is false. Alex Jones knows for sure the entire shooting was a false flag operation with multiple shooters, and old Alex is always right.
:thud:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 07, 2017, 11:47:40 am
But you know someone will claim this LA Times report is false. Alex Jones knows for sure the entire shooting was a false flag operation with multiple shooters, and old Alex is always right.
:thud:
Yep.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 07, 2017, 01:06:21 pm
This report says that they've determined he was the only attacker. They don't know if others were aware of his plans or not. That they have a lot of video evidence from the hotel on who went in and out. This report also changes the previous stories (the fire alarm to door ajar) on how the security guard got shot in the leg and what led the guard to the room in the first place. It also address his car and the card key access to his room timing in earlier reports.
This report says that they've determined he was the only attacker. They don't know if others were aware of his plans or not. That they have a lot of video evidence from the hotel on who went in and out. This report also changes the previous stories (the fire alarm to door ajar) on how the security guard got shot in the leg and what led the guard to the room in the first place. It also address his car and the card key access to his room timing in earlier reports.
Do gun-rights advocates think one should be able to buy 33 weapons of this caliber in one year?
"Should be able to"? Yes, if you want to and can afford to do so.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Rivergirl on October 07, 2017, 03:22:44 pm
Just as an aside. We shop in a fairly large three sided two story mall. One day we witnessed an auto crash into another auto. We heard the sounds of the crash coming from the opposite side of the crash. Sound travels and reverberates across quite a distance. If we hadn't been at the site of the crash we would have sworn the crash was on the opposite side of the mall.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 03:43:25 pm
Do gun-rights advocates think one should be able to buy 33 weapons of this caliber in one year?
Absolutely!
You can only use one at a time. Even if you line them up, you can still only use one at a time. A couple of bottles of water and a stack of full magazines will get you by if you really want to pull a dead end stunt like that. It's quicker to reload than put one down and get another one lined up.
If you are going to commit heinous crimes, you will find a way. Keep in mind, 80 million gun owners didn't shoot anyone in Las Vegas--or elsewhere while this guy was committing his crime.
Apparently, the last rifle he bought (a bolt-action .308) wasn't even in the room, even though he bought it hours before the incident.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 04:42:07 pm
Do gun-rights advocates think one should be able to buy 33 weapons of this caliber in one year?
Why not? Last I checked, the Second Amendment to the Constitution didn't say "Shall not be infringed, as long as you only buy 32 weapons of the same caliber."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 04:42:59 pm
You can only use one at a time. Even if you line them up, you can still only use one at a time. A couple of bottles of water and a stack of full magazines will get you by if you really want to pull a dead end stunt like that. It's quicker to reload than put one down and get another one lined up.
If you are going to commit heinous crimes, you will find a way. Keep in mind, 80 million gun owners didn't shoot anyone in Las Vegas--or elsewhere while this guy was committing his crime.
Apparently, the last rifle he bought (a bolt-action .308) wasn't even in the room, even though he bought it hours before the incident.
Seeing how some border states have laws to combat gun running, I'll go with this instead of having the ability to buy 1000 at a time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 04:43:37 pm
Why not? Last I checked, the Second Amendment to the Constitution didn't say "Shall not be infringed, as long as you only buy 32 weapons of the same caliber."
The last I looked at it, it said the right to bear arms, not hoard arms, not gun run.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 07, 2017, 04:45:28 pm
One person's "hoard" is another person's "collection". And, you're conflating gun running with gun purchasing. Not sure why you would do that.
Because that's exactly why Texas has laws requiring gun sellers to report any suspicious sales. I guess, there is no reason to conflate the two, it's just the same kind of sale, the sale of guns.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 04:49:09 pm
Because that's exactly why Texas has laws requiring gun sellers to report any suspicious sales. I guess, there is no reason to conflate the two, it's just the same kind of sale, the sale of guns.
Sorry, Tom, but that doesn't make sense. The Constitution says you can't own multiple guns as evidenced by a Texas law requiring the reporting of suspicious transactions? Huh?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 04:55:11 pm
Thirty three guns is flat nothing. There's a guy I know who's gun safe is his entire basement. I know at least ten off the top of my head that have gun rooms.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 07, 2017, 04:56:47 pm
So you want a National Gun Registry? Is that how you would keep track of every purchase? Every private sale must go through a Federal Registry? Is that how you would accomplish such a limit?
And no criminals would ever buy guns outside such a registry? Or steal them and sell them??
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 04:59:59 pm
The 2nd amendment talks of the right to bear arms; I don't see it addressing issues like hoarding guns.
Texas and California apparently require sellers to report some sales; to combat gun-running to Mexico.
Hoarding? How about collecting? Or is that a "hoard"? If I got a chance to pick up SKS rifles for 99 bucks each again I'd jump on it (even the Chinese ones), if I could buy Russian AKs or East German ones for $250 each, I'd run up the credit card. Somewhere down the line they'd be trading stock, or I could sell them on consignment and double my money or better, and leave lots of meat on the bone for the shopowner.
I read news stories all the time where some guy had "an arsenal". I won't say how many firearms I own, but it isn't uncommon for a home out here to have: at least one .22 rifle. At least one bolt action rifle in 6.5mm or larger caliber. A .22 handgun. At least one larger caliber handgun, be it .380, 9mm, .38 caliber, .357 magnum, .40 cal, .45 cal, or .44 magnum (or larger). At least one shotgun. If you have 'his and hers' firearms, which is not uncommon, you already have 10 firearms.
Frankly, those are the basics in this neck of the woods, and far from what so many urban news outlets consider to be an "arsenal", even though they define a half dozen firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo as such as if someone was going to go out one weekend and overthrow the government with them.
Out here, it isn't uncommon for a gun owner of any means to have two, three, or four dozen firearms, and serious collectors might have a couple hundred or more. Those guns aren't running around committing mayhem.
As the law stands, if you buy two handguns from the same dealer and take delivery of them on the same day, you are required to be flagged by the dealer and reported to the BATFE. Lovely. So the pair of pistols I bought with sequential serial numbers were picked up on different sides of a weekend, just to save my dealer paperwork. Silly rule.
The bottom line is that people who are law abiding aren't the problem, but they are the only ones these laws make life difficult for. Remember, too, it was the BATFE who told the dealer who sold some of the Fast and Furious firearms to let the transaction go through, even though the (known) straw buyer was buying rifles and pistols that would be untraceable and out of reach in no time, a dozen at a time. Those arms ended up in Mexico or in Cartel hands, and the Government knew d@mned well they were going there.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 07, 2017, 05:01:21 pm
So you want a National Gun Registry? Is that how you would keep track of every purchase? Every private sale must go through a Federal Registry? Is that how you would accomplish such a limit?
And no criminals would ever buy guns outside such a registry? Or steal them and sell them??
Thanks for not reading my responses, I will answer you in your logic.
So, you want to arm terrorists? So you want to arm drug cartels?
The question of a registry has already been answered, it's no. So, I will help your reading comprehension there.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:02:20 pm
Thirty three guns is flat nothing. There's a guy I know who's gun safe is his entire basement. I know at least ten off the top of my head that have gun rooms.
3 high powered weapons a month for a year. Sorry, no sale on this argument.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:03:26 pm
Hoarding? How about collecting? Or is that a "hoard"? If I got a chance to pick up SKS rifles for 99 bucks each again I'd jump on it (even the Chinese ones), if I could buy Russian AKs or East German ones for $250 each, I'd run up the credit card. Somewhere down the line they'd be trading stock, or I could sell them on consignment and double my money or better, and leave lots of meat on the bone for the shopowner.
I read news stories all the time where some guy had "an arsenal". I won't say how many firearms I own, but it isn't uncommon for a home out here to have: at least one .22 rifle. At least one bolt action rifle in 6.5mm or larger caliber. A .22 handgun. At least one larger caliber handgun, be it .380, 9mm, .38 caliber, .357 magnum, .40 cal, .45 cal, or .44 magnum (or larger). At least one shotgun. If you have 'his and hers' firearms, which is not uncommon, you already have 10 firearms.
Frankly, those are the basics in this neck of the woods, and far from what so many urban news outlets consider to be an "arsenal", even though they define a half dozen firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo as such as if someone was going to go out one weekend and overthrow the government with them.
Out here, it isn't uncommon for a gun owner of any means to have two, three, or four dozen firearms, and serious collectors might have a couple hundred or more. Those guns aren't running around committing mayhem.
As the law stands, if you buy two handguns from the same dealer and take delivery of them on the same day, you are required to be flagged by the dealer and reported to the BATFE. Lovely. So the pair of pistols I bought with sequential serial numbers were picked up on different sides of a weekend, just to save my dealer paperwork. Silly rule.
The bottom line is that people who are law abiding aren't the problem, but they are the only ones these laws make life difficult for. Remember, too, it was the BATFE who told the dealer who sold some of the Fast and Furious firearms to let the transaction go through, even though the (known) straw buyer was buying rifles and pistols that would be untraceable and out of reach in no time, a dozen at a time. Those arms ended up in Mexico or in Cartel hands, and the Government knew d@mned well they were going there.
They watch all those gun shops on the border, that's why they have some laws on suspicious transactions. Not sure what this is about and we are hardly talking about $250 Soviet era surplus but high powered weaponry, preferred weapons; probably like what this fellow Paddock was often buying.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 05:08:06 pm
Why? If someone wants to do something bad all it takes Sino e. Heck they could just go out and get a knife or a car or anything. What difference does it make.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 05:10:18 pm
Why? If someone wants to do something bad all it takes Sino e. Heck they could just go out and get a knife or a car or anything. What difference does it make.
Paddock did not go those routes but if one wants to make an equivalent between trying to knife as many people in a crowd of 22,000 vs. a sniper's nest, fine.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 05:11:11 pm
I read news stories all the time where some guy had "an arsenal". I won't say how many firearms I own, but it isn't uncommon for a home out here to have: at least one .22 rifle. At least one bolt action rifle in 6.5mm or larger caliber. A .22 handgun. At least one larger caliber handgun, be it .380, 9mm, .38 caliber, .357 magnum, .40 cal, .45 cal, or .44 magnum (or larger). At least one shotgun. If you have 'his and hers' firearms, which is not uncommon, you already have 10 firearms.
Frankly, those are the basics in this neck of the woods, and far from what so many urban news outlets consider to be an "arsenal", even though they define a half dozen firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo as such as if someone was going to go out one weekend and overthrow the government with them.
QFT. But you forgot the brush gun/ saddle gun. I would reckon nearly everyone hereabouts has a Winchester 94 30/30 or the like, along with others.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:11:38 pm
You'll have to show me that last part, Tom. It must be next to the clause about "Muskets."
And right next to shoulder-fired missiles. Those are arms too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:13:33 pm
Quote
I read news stories all the time where some guy had "an arsenal". I won't say how many firearms I own, but it isn't uncommon for a home out here to have: at least one .22 rifle. At least one bolt action rifle in 6.5mm or larger caliber. A .22 handgun. At least one larger caliber handgun, be it .380, 9mm, .38 caliber, .357 magnum, .40 cal, .45 cal, or .44 magnum (or larger). At least one shotgun. If you have 'his and hers' firearms, which is not uncommon, you already have 10 firearms.
Frankly, those are the basics in this neck of the woods, and far from what so many urban news outlets consider to be an "arsenal", even though they define a half dozen firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo as such as if someone was going to go out one weekend and overthrow the government with them.
I thought they were saying he had as many as 30 firearms in his hotel room, fine, that was his hobby. Don't call that an arsenal. :silly:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 05:15:56 pm
Paddock did not go those routes but if one wants to make an equivalent between trying to knife as many people in a crowd of 22,000 vs. a sniper's nest, fine.
These are your words. How do you keep track of individual's purchases over a year without some type of registry? And how is it useful if it does not include private sales as well as those from a dealer?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 05:17:49 pm
If someone wants to do bad stuff like this guy did they will go d a way. All your focus on controlling people won't matter.
It would also guarantee Trump loses the second and have about 50m people pushing for impeachment. Tell your minders to try some new talking points.
I don't think that's fair, @driftdiver. I don't think Tom has minders, I think he actually believes this stuff. Gun control can be an emotionally appealing argument after these horrible events, if one doesn't understand the Constitution and all that that entails.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 05:19:57 pm
These are your words. How do you keep track of individual's purchases over a year without some type of registry? And how is it useful if it does not include private sales as well as those from a dealer?
Not to mention registries are always used for confiscation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 05:21:42 pm
3 high powered weapons a month for a year. Sorry, no sale on this argument.
If I had the money, that sounds like something I would do... Not that I would do so through a dealer though. I don't like paper. And it's a phone call or two to buy a case of guns right off the street.
Your papered route means nothing. Nothing at all. The trade in guns off the books can't even be reckoned. It makes me laugh that you think you can control how many guns I buy per day/week/month by controlling the retail counter.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 05:22:13 pm
I don't think that's fair, @driftdiver. I don't think Tom has minders, I think he actually believes this stuff. Gun control can be an emotionally appealing argument after these horrible events, if one doesn't understand the Constitution and all that that entails.
Gun controll is about people controll. They are ok with the govt having guns. Just not law abiding citizens. They will also remove the right of self defense.
Oh and it's completely fair.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:22:33 pm
Quote
Mexico cartels go bargain gun shopping in Houston Chris Baltimore6 Min Read
HOUSTON (Reuters) - Mexican drug gangs looking for weapons powerful enough to stop a vehicle, penetrate a bullet-resistant vest or confront an army detachment need look no further than the Houston area’s 1,500 gun shops, where merchandise is priced to move.
Continued at: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-guns-texas/mexico-cartels-go-bargain-gun-shopping-in-houston-idUSTRE54S04A20090529
The laws are there, fine with me if they stop someone from buying 100 $1,550 rifles at a time. It should be seen, this likewise, is the logic of some arguing no laws should exist.
Quote
Guns bought in Houston through ‘straw purchases’ have been traced to dozens of murders in Mexico. One or two are purchased at a time, making them harder to track because of the sheer number of seemingly legitimate buyers who only buy a few guns from any given store.
Just in the state of Nevada and not counting any other states, I think the 33 guns bought should have been seen as suspicious. They aren't that highly of a populated state.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 07, 2017, 05:35:08 pm
The laws are there, fine with me if they stop someone from buying 100 $1,550 rifles at a time. It should be seen, this likewise, is the logic of some arguing no laws should exist. Just in the state of Nevada and not counting any other states, I think the 33 guns bought should have been seen as suspicious. They aren't that highly of a populated state.
You should be having this conversation about Mexican gang purchases with Obama and Holder.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 07, 2017, 05:39:43 pm
The laws are there, fine with me if they stop someone from buying 100 $1,550 rifles at a time. It should be seen, this likewise, is the logic of some arguing no laws should exist. Just in the state of Nevada and not counting any other states, I think the 33 guns bought should have been seen as suspicious. They aren't that highly of a populated state.
Tell me the law you believe would have prevented Paddock from killing a lot of people. Unless you can explain that, there isn't a reason for another gun law.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 05:48:25 pm
Anyway, if people are talking about "gun rooms" now, I know 10 people with one, we are starting to talk about more what sounds like what are collections not mere "bearing arms."
Anyway, it would have been fine if this fellow had been popped and buying 3 high powered rifles a month in a state like Nevada should have been a tip off.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 05:48:32 pm
Tell me the law you believe would have prevented Paddock from killing a lot of people. Unless you can explain that, there isn't a reason for another gun law.
:2popcorn:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 05:49:48 pm
Anyway, if people are talking about "gun rooms" now, I know 10 people with one, we are starting to talk about more what sounds like what are collections not mere "bearing arms."
Anyway, it would have been fine if this fellow had been popped and buying 3 high powered rifles a month in a state like Nevada should have been a tip off.
What part of "shall not infringe" confuses you.
The U.S. has 16,000 laws from the city to the federal level on the regulation of firearms.
What would have one more law prevented?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 05:56:14 pm
They watch all those gun shops on the border, that's why they have some laws on suspicious transactions. Not sure what this is about and we are hardly talking about $250 Soviet era surplus but high powered weaponry, preferred weapons; probably like what this fellow Paddock was often buying.
Oh, those were only $250 when the market was flooded with them (these things happen in waves). That $99 SKS is triple that or better now, and the AK is a $500 gun, easy if it's in good shape--especially the Soviet or East German ones. Which is my point. Popular arms will go up in value, so as an investment it pays to get in while they are cheap. Even if you are just trading for that one you missed out on when, in time the trading value of the firearm will go up as the market price does.
As far as East bloc weapons go, don't be a snob. A Dragunov will still hit nicely with a round that is cheap, readily available and the equivalent of the .30-06. At one time they were a fair bit cheaper ($700) than they are now ($3-5K). The AK-74 shoots a round ballistically similar to the .5.56, and maybe even a smidgin better. Either is in the same weight class as the average AR, be that AR-15 or AR-10 (once $500 or less, now up to three times that, if you can find one). The action may have a little slop in it, but that's actually a feature that allows the owner/user to get away with some slack maintenance when things are busy and still have a functioning rifle. At one time these were all quite a bit cheaper than they are now.
Now, whatever you invest in, I think the goal is to buy low, sell high.
Imagine if someone put a limit on how many shares of stock you could buy (aren't those used to launder money?) Or bars of gold or silver or Hummel figurines or tulip bulbs or beanie babies or whatever turns your crank. If you are a collector, too, suddenly that one every thirty days limit gets pretty nasty, and the opportunity to buy two and keep one that the other one pays for later goes out the window.
How about ammo? Even the (once) $5.00 a brick (500 rounds) of .22 Ammo was selling for $75 to $100 for a while. Would you limit ammo purchases, too?
How about magazines? When the big Assault Weapons Ban was on I gave a couple of pre-ban 25 round magazines for a popular .22 rifle to each of my boss' older sons for Christmas. I hadn't paid much for them (about $20 each) but the current market value for a pre-ban 25 round magazine for that popular .22 rifle had gone through the roof (worth about $100 each when I gave them to them). LOL! They thought I was awesome and even my boss was impressed. I had bought a dozen of them when they were much cheaper.
As in all markets, timing is everything. If you are hobbled by regulation, there is not much of a free market, is there?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 06:02:08 pm
The laws are there, fine with me if they stop someone from buying 100 $1,550 rifles at a time. It should be seen, this likewise, is the logic of some arguing no laws should exist. Just in the state of Nevada and not counting any other states, I think the 33 guns bought should have been seen as suspicious. They aren't that highly of a populated state.
Funny thing, but the reason there isn't that much population in Nevada is that the Federal Government owns over 90% of the State.
If you want states with low populations look at places like North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana, which still have low crime and very unobtrusive gun laws, with the exception of the ones the Feds impose. They sell gun safes in every hardware, and farm and ranch store--oh, and the gun dealers sell them, too. The only thing that stops people from buying enough guns to fill one or two every year is the expense.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 06:05:41 pm
Funny thing, but the reason there isn't that much population in Nevada is that the Federal Government owns over 90% of the State.
If you want states with low populations look at places like North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana, which still have low crime and very unobtrusive gun laws, with the exception of the ones the Feds impose. They sell gun safes in every hardware, and farm and ranch store--oh, and the gun dealers sell them, too. The only thing that stops people from buying enough guns to fill one or two every year is the expense.
I've got six guns in a house with three people in it. Why? Because I can and because owning and shooting guns has become a hobby with my wife and I.
The only thing limiting us from having more right now is cost and not enough time to shoot the ones we have.
At the end of the day that's a couple of only of a handful factors that should limit a person's ownership of guns.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 06:23:40 pm
Anyway, if people are talking about "gun rooms" now, I know 10 people with one, we are starting to talk about more what sounds like what are collections not mere "bearing arms."
Anyway, it would have been fine if this fellow had been popped and buying 3 high powered rifles a month in a state like Nevada should have been a tip off.
How many pens should be people allowed to buy?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 06:23:54 pm
Nevada is on the list of more dangerous states by gun laws.
I just think the purchases of AK-47s and the like should be a tip off, especially if one is buying a lot of them.
Chicago always gets criticized, isn't it interesting though, as a state, Illinois rate is actually pretty low for gun violence, I believe this graph is from cerca 2014.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 06:24:58 pm
Funny thing, but the reason there isn't that much population in Nevada is that the Federal Government owns over 90% of the State.
If you want states with low populations look at places like North Dakota, Wyoming, and Montana, which still have low crime and very unobtrusive gun laws, with the exception of the ones the Feds impose. They sell gun safes in every hardware, and farm and ranch store--oh, and the gun dealers sell them, too. The only thing that stops people from buying enough guns to fill one or two every year is the expense.
Funny how having a gun safe is now bad.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 06:26:50 pm
Nevada is on the list of more dangerous states by gun laws.
I just think the purchases of AK-47s and the like should be a tip off, especially if one is buying a lot of them.
Chicago always gets criticized, isn't it interesting though, as a state, Illinois rate is actually pretty low for gun violence, I believe this graph is from cerca 2014.
If Trump wants to be impeached he should go with your gun law ideas. A few million gun owners would be all over it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 06:27:00 pm
Great now we have so called "conservatives" using graphics from Rolling Stone as a "credible" source.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 06:30:38 pm
:pondering:
How can some one be pro life and anti-2nd Amendment at the same time?
:shrug:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 06:39:17 pm
Anyway, if people are talking about "gun rooms" now, I know 10 people with one, we are starting to talk about more what sounds like what are collections not mere "bearing arms."
You are obviously not a hunter. If one hunts, there is a wide array of guns necessary for the task. Deer are usually found in the bottoms, in brushy country - A terrain dependent weapon might be anything from a shotgun to a carbine, to a 308 or 30.06 . All are required in possession.
But none of those are necessarily good for mtn goat or sheep, which are usually a long shot, or likewise antelope. Those guns are more game specific. A 300win would not be a good choice for antelope, but good for a sheep or a long shot on an elk. Antelope are usually a long shot, but you'll want a little caliber, because the critter is smallish, and a big bullet will wreck the meat if you happen upon a short shot.
Elk, moose, and bear, you'll want a whole lot of knock down power - but again, that depends upon terrain. A big bore carbine for brush or deep woods, or a big bore with a scope for open area.
Right there is an array of 5-10 'high powered' rifles, depending upon your financial ability, and I really haven't addressed shotguns and differences in ducks, geese and upland bird hunting. Nor have I addressed hand guns and protection either. Shoot, my pickup has at least a carbine and two pistols that live there...
Add to that memorabilia guns - that one your daddy bought you that killed your first deer, which you'll never part with... that old .22 you went plinking gophers with when you were but a lad... Your dad's collection which you inherited when he died and will pass down to your boys...
It's dang easy to get a bunch of guns hanging round. Most guys I know would have more if they could afford to.
Quote
Anyway, it would have been fine if this fellow had been popped and buying 3 high powered rifles a month in a state like Nevada should have been a tip off.
It would not be uncommon, back in my day, for me to walk away from a gun show with three to five purchases, probably a mix of handguns and rifles. For me to buy three 'high powered' rifles in a day is not even worth mention.
As @Smokin Joe made mention, guns hold value remarkably, and work very well as trade stock. Would those guns I bought hit my private collection? Maybe, but probably not. Most of them went away as trade.
I still have a matched pair of nickel 9's in shoulder holsters that I traded into... That are just to pretty to part with... I tell myself they are for when I get dressed up... They'd be classy with a suit...
But I don't own a suit, and little pop guns like those ain't good for much else.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 06:40:55 pm
Great now we have so called "conservatives" using graphics from Rolling Stone as a "credible" source.
I don't think that infographic proves the point he's trying to make. It shows Maryland, Chitcago and LA as the safest places in the land. Don't even get me started at how the statistics that is supposed to represent conflate suicides, accidents and homicides.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 06:45:33 pm
I don't think that infographic proves the point he's trying to make. It shows Maryland, Chitcago and LA as the safest places in the land. Don't even get me started at how the statistics that is supposed to represent conflate suicides, accidents and homicides.
If you take DC...Chicago...NOLA and Detroit out of the mix...the U.S. goes from 3rd in the world in murders to 4th from the bottom.
Not sure where Rolling Stong got their data from...but it's severely flawed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 07, 2017, 09:28:20 pm
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 07, 2017, 09:33:47 pm
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
Great. When those people form a new country, they can write their Constitution that way, telling their citizens how much they are allowed to own. Will they require limits on horsepower and speed for privately owned vehicles as well?
Who needs a private airplane? They might fly it into a building or a crowd.
Again, do you believe your proposed new laws would prevent Paddock from killing a bunch of people?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 07, 2017, 09:33:55 pm
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
Which is why legislation shouldn't be based upon anecdotes and caprice.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 10:56:02 pm
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
So how many is too many? 5? 6? 1?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 11:10:52 pm
Tell me the law you believe would have prevented Paddock from killing a lot of people. Unless you can explain that, there isn't a reason for another gun law.
The question isn't what kind of law could have stopped Paddock. I doubt any law could have stopped Paddock; his MO was unique and everyone knows that every dog has one free bite. The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 11:29:45 pm
I know of 30 households or so including my own, where people own 3-5 AK-47s, not one of them say, an individual should be free to buy as many as they want for their "collection".
I know a couple thousand people who only have a couple of cars. No one says you shouldn't be able to own a warehouse full.
What are you pushing for here, a limit on the number of firearms a person can own? How fast they can buy them? Who is the arbiter of that? A limit on the caliber? Magazine capacity?
You see, from the accounts of some of your friends' activities, they happily do things I would not participate in at gunpoint.
This has nothing to do with what your friends want to do.
It has to do with my Rights, which at last reading "...Shall not be Infringed.".
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 11:31:30 pm
Guns, ..... should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 07, 2017, 11:38:29 pm
If God forbid it, someone managed to beat some people to death with a baseball bat are we going to even consider limits on how many baseball bats a person can own?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 11:38:40 pm
The question isn't what kind of law could have stopped Paddock. I doubt any law could have stopped Paddock; his MO was unique and everyone knows that every dog has one free bite. The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
So much wrong with that, I can't even start. Well, I'll try: We require things of people driving cars because driving isn't a "right," it's a privilege. It's a pity too, I thought you were starting to understand the Second Amendment.
Oh well....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 07, 2017, 11:38:59 pm
The question isn't what kind of law could have stopped Paddock. I doubt any law could have stopped Paddock; his MO was unique and everyone knows that every dog has one free bite. The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
So you want to turn a fundamental right into a heavily regulated privilege, and one for the wealthy at that.
Do you honestly think the fiscal encumbrances on a basic right would have stopped anyone with Paddock's financial means?
What you would do is open the way for the development of one of the most profound cottage industry booms in US history. In places like Pakistan, people with rudimentary tools can clone virtually any firearm made. What do you think Americans might be able to accomplish with CNC machines and 3-D printers? Cut off one head, and two will grow back and not all of the ones making those clones will care about how legal their use will be.
Or will you regulate scrap metal and sandpaper and files, too?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 07, 2017, 11:39:18 pm
Short of total confiscation of weapons legally owned by private citizens by the Federal government...nothing
Yup. But I'd like to stop/deter the copycats. Banning bump stocks sounds like a small step in that direction. Let's not forget that bump stocks were declared legal by Obama's ATF.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 11:41:52 pm
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
@jpsb he's obviously never filled out the paperwork for a new gun. The serial number, caliber make and model are all entered into the paperwork by the dealer...which is then entered into the computer for the Feds to say yay or nay before you're allowed to walk out of the store with your new gun
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 11:43:23 pm
If God forbid it, someone managed to beat some people to death with a baseball bat are we going to even consider limits on how many baseball bats a person can own?
Good question, that. A Brother-in-Law I never got to meet was beaten to death with a baseball bat by some illegal aliens not far from where I live. We can't even to seem to get a grip on stopping illegals, so I expect the anti-baseball bat freaks along most any minute.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 11:44:44 pm
Yup. But I'd like to stop/deter the copycats. Banning bump stocks sounds like a small step in that direction. Let's not forget that bump stocks were declared legal by Obama's ATF.
Again there is no way to stop or deter copycats unless you ban all gun sales in the country and confiscate the ones people already own.
There is not one single proposal in the last decade at the state or federal level that would have stopped any of the mass shootings that have happened in recent memory.
So to satisfy your desire to play real life Minority Report...the only way to satisfy what you seek is total confiscation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 11:49:00 pm
Good question, that. A Brother-in-Law I never got to meet was beaten to death with a baseball bat by some illegal aliens not far from where I live. We can't even to seem to get a grip on stopping illegals, so I expect the anti-baseball bat freaks along most any minute.
Since Englands gun ban knife attacks have taken their place as the murder weapon of choice. It's gotten to the point that England is now beginning to place age restrictions on who can and can't purchase knives. You can't even buy one online and have it shipped to your house.
My point in all fo that is that once you start down the road of regulation it will never stop. The Federal Gov't will just move to block the next thing they deem dangerous...and the next thing...and the next thing...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 07, 2017, 11:49:44 pm
@jpsb he's obviously never filled out the paperwork for a new gun. The serial number, caliber make and model are all entered into the paperwork by the dealer...which is then entered into the computer for the Feds to say yay or nay before you're allowed to walk out of the store with your new gun
There is no law that would have stopped the Vegas shooter. The goal of gun laws is not to prevent gun violence but rather to disarm the American people so they can not resist a tyrannical government. It's a bait and switch like just about everything gov does.
Much more important is finding out why the shooter did what he did. What was his motivation and who motivated him. Then we might be able to stop the next shooter before he/she shoots.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 07, 2017, 11:51:13 pm
There is no law that would have stopped the Vegas shooter. The goal of gun laws is not to prevent gun violence but rather to disarm the American people so they can not resist a tyrannical government. It's a bait and switch like just about everything gov does.
Much more important is finding out why the shooter did what did did. What was his motivation and who motivated him. Then we might be able to stop the next shooter before he/she shoots.
:amen:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 11:51:33 pm
The question isn't what kind of law could have stopped Paddock. I doubt any law could have stopped Paddock; his MO was unique and everyone knows that every dog has one free bite. The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
I advocate registration and insurance for anyone who advocates for gun control. History has proven it's dangerous and has contributed to millions of deaths.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 07, 2017, 11:52:11 pm
The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
@Jazzhead you have hit on a point that is of some interest to me. The copycats. You are all smart enough, and well informed to know this is a precedent. The great thing about exceptionalism. Someone out there is going to try and out do you.
The only surprise to me is that something like this hasn't happened earlier. Sure, you have the walk in the door blasting away freaks. This seems a bit different.
As far as gun ownership goes, the number of guns you have is of no consequece. Your ownership of them does. Your Ownership.
I have an intense interest in what they would call a reasonable act. What Paddock did is beyond "reason"? I don't think so.
As for implements of destruction it is as both as simple and complex as Cain and Abel. People will do whatever comes to hand if there is "reason".
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 07, 2017, 11:53:39 pm
So you want to turn a fundamental right into a heavily regulated privilege, and one for the wealthy at that.
Do you honestly think the fiscal encumbrances on a basic right would have stopped anyone with Paddock's financial means?
Bingo. Some people think if we tax the living shit out of people to exercise their God-given rights, it will stop them from doing so.
This "copycat prevention" is the biggest piece of bovine excrement I've seen come down the pike since Hillary Clinton declared the carnage would have been worse of the killer had a suppressor. Excuse me, "Silencer."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 07, 2017, 11:54:16 pm
There is no law that would have stopped the Vegas shooter. The goal of gun laws is not to prevent gun violence but rather to disarm the American people so they can not resist a tyrannical government. It's a bait and switch like just about everything gov does.
Much more important is finding out why the shooter did what did did. What was his motivation and who motivated him. Then we might be able to stop the next shooter before he/she shoots.
@jpsb Look at what's happened in England and Australia. Self defense of any type has been outlawed.
Use a pen to defend yourself from a rapist, go to jail. Raise a bat in defense, go to jail.
I for one will not give up my firearms. Period. I will not register either.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 07, 2017, 11:55:35 pm
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
accomplishing *nothing*.
What would stop the copycats is LEO snipers pre-positioned at such venues. The only thing that stops a sniper is a sniper.
Quote
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
Idiocy.
So if I cannot afford insurance, I have no right to self-defense? What if life happens and the guns I used to be able to insure, I can no longer afford? Confiscation and forced sale of my father's gun that was handed to me on his death bed?
What of all my hillbilly friends who have *no* money and depend upon their guns for subsistence? Would you take food from their mouths?
The entire West hunts for food. *ALL* of us. We all shoot varmints that attack our livestock. We live far away from LEOs that will at some point come and put somebody in a body bag. Many can't hardly afford to eat and you want to saddle them with a confiscatory insurance?
BULLSHIT. As is the idea of national registry, which will only be used later for confiscation.
WHAT PART OF 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED' DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? 9999hair out0000 *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 07, 2017, 11:59:11 pm
Yup. But I'd like to stop/deter the copycats. Banning bump stocks sounds like a small step in that direction. Let's not forget that bump stocks were declared legal by Obama's ATF.
ROTFLAMO! You can bumpstock a gun with a pencil and a rubberband! *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 08, 2017, 12:02:03 am
. As far as gun ownership goes, the number of guns you have is of no consequece. Your ownership of them does. Your Ownership.
Correct. That's why don't support restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases, or the size of a gun collection. I want every gun owner to carry insurance in the same way a driver must. If you can afford to insure a colossal gun collection, then have at it. If not, stick to one or two.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 12:02:24 am
I advocate registration and insurance for anyone who advocates for gun control. History has proven it's dangerous and has contributed to millions of deaths.
I advocate for the stoppage of any visual representation of people killing other people. And that goes right down to hanging Christ on the cross. The article that was ignored I posted a couple of six pages back. You want to change the world? STOP being "entertained" by visuals of the horror inflicted by people on each other.
You think it doesn't Matter? It does. They have proven the power of prayer--even long distance prayer. So why would it be so hard to believe that the same process doesn't work in the opposite.
If "you" got some enjoyment out of seeing this guy's suicide headshot you have a sick mindset that feeds the beast. Stop it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2017, 12:03:11 am
Correct. That's why don't support restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases, or the size of a gun collection. I want every gun owner to carry insurance in the same way a driver must. If you can afford to insure a colossal gun collection, then have at it. If not, stick to one or two.
Crap in one hand demand in the other...see which fills up first.
What you "want" is just another Liberal end run around the black letter law laid out in the Second Amendment...can't say I'm shocked coming from you.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 08, 2017, 12:05:43 am
What would stop the copycats is LEO snipers pre-positioned at such venues. The only thing that stops a sniper is a sniper.
Idiocy.
So if I cannot afford insurance, I have no right to self-defense? What if life happens and the guns I used to be able to insure, I can no longer afford? Confiscation and forced sale of my father's gun that was handed to me on his death bed?
What of all my hillbilly friends who have *no* money and depend upon their guns for subsistence? Would you take food from their mouths?
The entire West hunts for food. *ALL* of us. We all shoot varmints that attack our livestock. We live far away from LEOs that will at some point come and put somebody in a body bag. Many can't hardly afford to eat and you want to saddle them with a confiscatory insurance?
BULLSHIT. As is the idea of national registry, which will only be used later for confiscation.
WHAT PART OF 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED' DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? 9999hair out0000 *****rollingeyes*****
If you can insure your pick-up truck, you can insure your gun.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 12:06:10 am
Thee most important point. Never give up your guns. NEVER.
I don't own any guns. I have a dull knife and a sharp knife.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 12:06:49 am
Yup. But I'd like to stop/deter the copycats. Banning bump stocks sounds like a small step in that direction. Let's not forget that bump stocks were declared legal by Obama's ATF.
Because Obama was looking for a way to arm his minions, too. Don't think all that ACORN money went for phones, or that all those firearms were bought by Conservatives. Don't ignore Operation "Gangwalker". And don't ignore the obvious pep rallies for violence among the Liberals, either. BLM ("BIE": Black Identity Extremists, as the DOJ is referring to them) and AntiFa, and even OWS, not to mention a host of "street" gangs which are actually reaching the status of transnational criminal organizations, and we haven't even brought up radical Islamists that are being imported without vetting.
All of these amount to groups with set hierarchies, command and control, communications, organization, and in the case of some of the gangs, people who have no compunction about breaking laws and killing people, up close and personal.
Taking the means to reply in kind from people who are law abiding only tilts the playing field toward criminal elements, not away from crime.
The genie is out of the bottle. People know it can be done with a rubber band or bootlace, and they will try, discover, practice, make other devices to make that fire not only rapid, but more accurate.
But you want to lock up the corral after the horses have escaped.
I think I'll go to the range and see how many mags it takes to be able to pop off a three round burst, without so much as a rubber band. Once you understand the principle behind it, you should be able to duplicate it even without the stock or any extra hardware at all.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 12:06:57 am
If you can insure your pick-up truck, you can insure your gun.
My guns are insured...as part of my renters insurance as valuable items.
What you're advocating isn't "insuring" or "insurance" it's totalitarian gun registration like you'd find in every third world dictatorship and most of Socialist Europe.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 12:10:03 am
Correct. That's why don't support restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases, or the size of a gun collection. I want every gun owner to carry insurance in the same way a driver must. If you can afford to insure a colossal gun collection, then have at it. If not, stick to one or two.
Why? I submit the gun collector has already met the test of affordability by merely purchasing the weapon. Those things are expensive already. Why do you want additional burdens placed?
I submit the reason you really want the extra burdens placed is for the purpose of registering them, in the name of "insurance" because you know you can get away with that. You want to know who has them and where they are, so if you and your friends in the government decide to start rounding them up, you know where to look for them.
You have dropped your mask, I look forward to your attempts to put it back on.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 08, 2017, 12:14:17 am
If you can insure your pick-up truck, you can insure your gun.
Why not just cut to the chase and demand each person carry insurance for what they might do to someone or something? You can then charge them based on how many guns, knives, baseball bats, vehicles, airplanes, etc. they own... And like Bernie Sanders we'll have government decide what we need or don't need. Anything we don't need we be deemed illegal for the greater good...
You essentially already have that with healthcare.
Just another petty tyrant.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 08, 2017, 12:19:46 am
Why? How is this anything but an attempt to make gun ownership more difficult and economically constrained.
Any port in a storm. He wants guns gone, by any means necessary. He screwed up, he let us see what he wants. Now, it's a matter of how he can muster the talking points to bear. He can't get around the Second Amendment, so now he's looking for a way to prevent people from having it by the back door.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 12:20:13 am
Forcing people to insure their health care has worked out great. Forcing people to insure their guns is going to work out even better.
Car insurance is a tax. Health insurance is a tax. You try to tax my guns, of which I don't own, is taxing me too far.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 12:25:16 am
What is the correct word here?
Ensure?
Insure?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 08, 2017, 12:26:53 am
Correct. That's why don't support restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases, or the size of a gun collection. I want every gun owner to carry insurance in the same way a driver must. If you can afford to insure a colossal gun collection, then have at it. If not, stick to one or two.
WOW! I see that you're also over here spreading the lib talk around! They beat you up pretty good over on RO?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 08, 2017, 12:30:02 am
But I'm not advocating restrictions. Own as many guns as you can afford to insure.
You can parse words...couch it under the guise of insurance...but what you're advocating is restriction.
There are already private groups that provide insurance that protects private citizens if they are involved in a self defense shooting.
There are provisions already in place in renters and homeowners insurance policies to reimburse a gun owner if their firearms are stolen during the course of a home invasion/robbery.
You're advocating a confiscatory policy that would prohibit average Americans from owning guns and making it to where only the rich could afford to own more than one.
Which I will point out again wouldn't have stopped the Las Vegas shooting since the shooter was a multi-millionaire that could have afforded every single gun he bought AND the insurance you propose and not blinked an eye at the cost.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 12:42:10 am
Which I will point out again wouldn't have stopped the Las Vegas shooting since the shooter was a multi-millionaire that could have afforded every single gun he bought AND the insurance you propose and not blinked an eye at the cost.
It won't stop other rich assassins from plying their trade either, which renders the "copycat" meme laughable, though its a joke in very poor taste.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 12:46:32 am
But I'm not advocating restrictions. Own as many guns as you can afford to insure.
So how many inner city types that do most of the killings are going to buy insurance for their guns? Do you think they went into a gun store and purchased them there to begin with? How naive are you?
We could save far more lives just forcing everyone drive under 30 mph. And driving a car isn't a constitutional right so government has much more freedom here. Make cars so they won't go over 30 mph. If you modify your car to exceed that speed prosecute them. After all, why do you really need to go any faster? For the greater good and all... And then the wealthy who can afford it can buy insurance to go faster...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 08, 2017, 12:47:11 am
I think we should make jazz and his friends take out a very pricey auto nsurance policy to cover losses in case they deliberately drive on the sidewalk and take out a bunch of pedestrians. They can own as many cars as they can afford to insure in this manner
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: goodwithagun on October 08, 2017, 12:47:32 am
"Poll taxes" (which are understood in the rest of the world not called the United States as a "tax on existing") are perfectly legal here, which is how Judge Roberts was able to declare Obamacare A-OK. It's in the Constitution.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 12:49:28 am
It won't stop other rich assassins from plying their trade either, which renders the "copycat" meme laughable, though its a joke in very poor taste.
It won't stop anyone who ignores the law regardless of wealth... Killing people is the highest crime and when they're willing to do that, all the rest is just noise.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 12:51:10 am
I think we should make jazz and his friends take out a very pricey auto nsurance policy to cover losses in case they deliberately drive on the sidewalk and take out a bunch of pedestrians. They can own as many cars as they can afford to insure in this manner
Either that or make insurance policies more expensive for a Honda Civic or Toyota Prius than say a Dodge Durango.
You're far more likely to suffer serious and even life threatening injuries in a smaller car...thus costing the insurance company more $$$ and putting the driver at greater risk than one driving the Durango.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 08, 2017, 12:53:39 am
Either that or make insurance policies more expensive for a Honda Civic or Toyota Prius than say a Dodge Durango.
You're far more likely to suffer serious and even life threatening injuries in a smaller car...thus costing the insurance company more $$$ and putting the driver at greater risk than one driving the Durango.
Gotcha. But the point was there are all kinds of objects that can be used to intentionally kill people that can be subjected to this kind of tax. Even some objects that liberals use daily
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 08, 2017, 12:54:07 am
It won't stop anyone who ignores the law regardless of wealth... Killing people is the highest crime and when they're willing to do that, all the rest is just noise.
I'll be among those who ignore the law when they come after my guns. Giving up my guns is a line I simply will not cross.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 12:59:39 am
Gotcha. But the point was there are all kinds of objects that can be used to intentionally kill people that can be subjected to this kind of tax. Even some objects that liberals use daily
You're right. And after we start down a rabbit hole like that...you and I both know the Libs won't stop...ever.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 01:00:15 am
Forcing people to insure their health care has worked out great. Forcing people to insure their guns is going to work out even better.
Car insurance is a tax. Health insurance is a tax. You try to tax my guns, of which I don't own, is taxing me too far.
We already had a revolution over a stamp tax and tea tax, plus a rebellion over a whiskey tax. Yes, it was more over taxation without representation, but IMO, this would be worse.
Think the corruption and violence after Volstead got bad? See what happens if something similar was ever enacted with all firearms.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 01:17:36 am
If you can insure your pick-up truck, you can insure your gun.
Shall not be infringed. That justifies no fiscal test for owning a firearm (or other arm).
As I said earlier, Paddock was a man of means, owning multiple homes and aircraft. He was a recognized "high roller" on the gambling circuit.
A few tens of thousands in insurance fees would not have stopped him, either.
Few enough people can afford to purchase as many arms as he did, and he bought some of the pricier ones out there. That doesn't begin to add in the add-ons like bump stocks, bipods, extra magazines, good optics, etc. Money was not an impediment for him.
But for the average guy, having to insure every gun is like for someone who owns five cars having to insure every one of them. You only use one at a time. I have six vehicles on the pavement, but I only drive one at a time. If that vehicle sits unused for a month, I still have to pay for the insurance even though the probability of it being involved in an accident and causing injury to someone is zero. Yet you would impose a similar model on someone who owns firearms? Even NIB arms purchased for an investment? Grandpa's old scattergun, and the wallhanger percussion rifle from the 1800s passed down through the family? Will parts count as firearms, like with "machine guns"? That way the slug barrel or the set of chokes for that shotgun can be counted as several firearms instead of just one?
Not only no, but Hell no. I see a lot of iron bottomed lakes out there as those guns are rapidly lost in boating accidents, and jokes like those told about the Latvians while the Soviets dominated there (Why do Latvians pour oil on their flowerbeds? To keep the rifles from rusting...)
This is a big country. How are you even going to find them all? That won't happen, but people who sold a firearm private sale to someone who has died or moved would end up having to carry insurance on something they don't have or face prison for not producing something they no longer own? Will the ex-wife-to-be assert the ex-husband-to-be has unregistered and uninsured firearms as the new opening gambit of a nasty divorce instead of just alleging abuse? Because there would have to be a registry in order to track insurance compliance.
I take issue with the methodology used with liability insurance for vehicles, anyway. I think the Driver should be insured for liability rather than the vehicle (unless you want full coverage for collision and comprehensive, which banks want to secure the value of a collateral asset, and some folks want for expensive vehicles which might suffer damage without a clear way to recover costs of replacement or repair).
But, at some point, your solution has a result: I see dead people.
Nope. Let's not go there. Let's not make criminals out of people who are not a problem. Let's not create a situation which will lead to very hard feelings, and very likely, bloodshed,where there would have been none.
Leave this infringement the hell off of my RKBA. It will cost more lives than it saves.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 08, 2017, 01:20:21 am
Shall not be infringed. That justifies no fiscal test for owning a firearm (or other arm).
As I said earlier, Paddock was a man of means, owning multiple homes and aircraft. He was a recognized "high roller" on the gambling circuit.
A few tens of thousands in insurance fees would not have stopped him, either.
Few enough people can afford to purchase as many arms as he did, and he bought some of the pricier ones out there. That doesn't begin to add in the add-ons like bump stocks, bipods, extra magazines, good optics, etc. Money was not an impediment for him.
But for the average guy, having to insure every gun is like for someone who owns five cars having to insure every one of them. You only use one at a time. I have six vehicles on the pavement, but I only drive one at a time. If that vehicle sits unused for a month, I still have to pay for the insurance even though the probability of it being involved in an accident and causing injury to someone is zero. Yet you would impose a similar model on someone who owns firearms? Even NIB arms purchased for an investment? Grandpa's old scattergun, and the wallhanger percussion rifle from the 1800s passed down through the family? Will parts count as firearms, like with "machine guns"? That way the slug barrel or the set of chokes for that shotgun can be counted as several firearms instead of just one?
Not only no, but Hell no. I see a lot of iron bottomed lakes out there as those guns are rapidly lost in boating accidents, and jokes like those told about the Latvians while the Soviets dominated there (Why do Latvians pour oil on their flowerbeds? To keep the rifles from rusting...)
This is a big country. How are you even going to find them all? That won't happen, but people who sold a firearm private sale to someone who has died or moved would end up having to carry insurance on something they don't have or face prison for not producing something they no longer own? Will the ex-wife-to-be assert the ex-husband-to-be has unregistered and uninsured firearms as the new opening gambit of a nasty divorce instead of just alleging abuse? Because there would have to be a registry in order to track insurance compliance.
I take issue with the methodology used with liability insurance for vehicles, anyway. I think the Driver should be insured for liability rather than the vehicle (unless you want full coverage for collision and comprehensive, which banks want to secure the value of a collateral asset, and some folks want for expensive vehicles which might suffer damage without a clear way to recover costs of replacement or repair).
But, at some point, your solution has a result: I see dead people.
Nope. Let's not go there. Let's not make criminals out of people who are not a problem. Let's not create a situation which will lead to very hard feelings, and very likely, bloodshed,where there would have been none.
Leave this infringement the hell off of my RKBA. It will cost more lives than it saves.
QFT. Good post.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 08, 2017, 01:30:34 am
At this point, our resident liberal troll is simply trying to shut down another thread, of which I am certain he holds the record for the number count thrown into the bin-of-stopped-threads.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2017, 01:37:25 am
If they come for my guns they can have my ammo first. One at a time..... hope they are good at catching!
Nah... They just won't find mine. Canoe accident. Live to fight another day... In the mean time, I'll have an underground machine shop tooling up. Because when that time comes, what will come after will be a short time later.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 01:38:29 am
Nah... They just won't find mine. Canoe accident. Live to fight another day... In the mean time, I'll have an underground machine shop tooling up. Because when that time comes, what will come after will be a short time later.
I like the way you think. Me, too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2017, 01:40:20 am
It's time to resume buying. 3 a month is probably more than I can do but gonna try.
I’m not a young buck but I think the time is coming soon where we will have to make a stand and be counted. Most likely in defense of our churches. But it is a lot harder to stand in defense without arms. Those who would take our freedoms know this. That is why the gun grab usually precedes all others.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 08, 2017, 01:56:41 am
It's time to resume buying. 3 a month is probably more than I can do but gonna try.
A P90 and an FN Five Seven, so you can get your hands on and use SS190 FMJ, when the real trouble starts.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Elderberry on October 08, 2017, 02:07:51 am
When ammunition was hard to find, my son and I began amassing reloading supplies. Then reloading supplies dried up. Now the drought is about over. I should get more.
Always make sure you have plenty of ammo on hand.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2017, 03:14:49 am
I voted for my 2nd amendment rights at the ballot box, for some of those predicting the next American Revolution. Boy, talk about people being dramatic, unreal; but those rights didn't mean enough for their vote.
If it weren't so sad, it'd be laughable, the government will have the might to crush any insurrection but go out fighting like Steven Paddock.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 03:30:58 am
I voted for my 2nd amendment rights at the ballot box, for some of those predicting the next American Revolution. Boy, talk about people being dramatic, unreal; but those rights didn't mean enough for their vote.
If it weren't so sad, it'd be laughable, the government will have the might to crush any insurrection but go out fighting like Steven Paddock.
The RKBA hasn't been up for a vote since ratification--and then, only the Amendment which is supposed to keep the government from infringing the Right.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 08, 2017, 03:37:37 am
If every person in that crowd of 29,000 was carrying, they STILL wouldn't have been able to stop Braddock, or protect themselves.
The goal should be to stop people like him. IMO, it's impossible in a nation of 330M.
No carrying in that situation would have been of no benefit There will always be those situations where there is nothing you can do. But all in all I like my chances better when I am armed than when I am not.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 03:46:44 am
I voted for my 2nd amendment rights at the ballot box, for some of those predicting the next American Revolution. Boy, talk about people being dramatic, unreal; but those rights didn't mean enough for their vote.
If it weren't so sad, it'd be laughable, the government will have the might to crush any insurrection but go out fighting like Steven Paddock.
Trump was pushing for an "assault" weapons ban in 2000. Fact.
An "assault" weapon is a term created by the left and basically means scary looking gun...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 08, 2017, 03:49:29 am
No carrying in that situation would have been of no benefit There will always be those situations where there is nothing you can do. But all in all I like my chances better when I am armed than when I am not.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 08, 2017, 04:19:40 am
Police finally revealed what was written on the note in the room. http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/07/the-las-vegas-killer-died-with-a-note-by-his-side-heres-what-it-read/?utm_content=buffer8ba9c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 04:20:07 am
Trump was pushing for an "assault" weapons ban in 2000. Fact.
An "assault" weapon is a term created by the left and basically means scary looking gun...
2000? So what? Almost 20 years ago.
Armed American Radio endorsed him. NRA endorsed Trump.
Apparently, he has evolved on the issue, he got elected, these others may well not have been elected. It's probably in the GOP platform as well.
Fact, I voted for my 2nd amendment rights with the GOP candidate, as I always do.
And let's not forget those who did NOT vote for the pro-2nd amendment candidate who act like they are taking a noble stance, because it's just rubbish. They abandoned the 2nd amendment.
https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf It might even be in the GOP platform.
Voting for Trump meant voting pro-life, voting 2nd amendment rights.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2017, 04:24:18 am
GOP platform, here it is:
Quote
The Second Amendment: Our Right to Keep and Bear Arms We uphold the right of individuals to keep and bear arms, a natural inalienable right that predates the Constitution and is secured by the Second Amendment. Lawful gun ownership enables Americans to exercise their God-given right of self- defense for the safety of their homes, their loved ones, and their communities. We salute the Republican Congress for defending the right to keep and bear arms by preventing the President from installing a new liberal majority on the Supreme Court. The confirmation to the Court of additional anti-gun justices would eviscerate the Second Amendment’s fundamental protections. Already, local officials in the nation’s capital and elsewhere are defying the Court’s decisions upholding an individual right to bear arms as affirmed by the Supreme Court in Heller and McDonald . We support firearm reciprocity legislation to recognize the right of law-abiding Americans to carry firearms to protect themselves and their families in all 50 states. We support constitutional carry statutes and salute the states that have passed them. We oppose ill-conceived laws that would restrict magazine capacity or ban the sale of the most popular and common modern rifle. We also oppose any effort to deprive • REPUBLICAN PLATFORM 2016 • 13 individuals of their right to keep and bear arms without due process of law. We condemn frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers and the current Administration’s illegal harassment of firearm dealers. We oppose federal licensing or registration of law-abiding gun owners, registration of ammunition, and restoration of the ill-fated Clinton gun ban. We call for a thorough investigation — by a new Republican administration — of the deadly “Fast and Furious” operation perpetrated by Department of Justice officials who approved and allowed illegal sales of guns to known violent criminals
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 04:24:28 am
Police finally revealed what was written on the note in the room. http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/07/the-las-vegas-killer-died-with-a-note-by-his-side-heres-what-it-read/?utm_content=buffer8ba9c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
A few pages back, some here had guessed it would be ballistic calculations.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 08, 2017, 04:26:30 am
Armed American Radio endorsed him. NRA endorsed Trump.
Apparently, he has evolved on the issue, he got elected, these others may well not have been elected. It's probably in the GOP platform as well.
Fact, I voted for my 2nd amendment rights with the GOP candidate, as I always do.
And let's not forget those who did NOT vote for the pro-2nd amendment candidate who act like they are taking a noble stance, because it's just rubbish. They abandoned the 2nd amendment.
https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf It might even be in the GOP platform.
Voting for Trump meant voting pro-life, voting 2nd amendment rights.
Glad you trust in Trump's alleged "evolution" because I sure don't.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 05:09:16 am
Glad you trust in Trump's alleged "evolution" because I sure don't.
I guess voting for Trump meant voting for many things, real or imagined. We will see how he does on the RKBA. I'm not seeing 'evolution', I'm seeing entropy in action.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 08, 2017, 05:33:24 am
There is no proof "assault weapons" is a left-wing invented term. http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/assault-weapons/
Saying something like "I want to ban assault weapons" if Trump did say this, no source was given, is not the same thing as banning all guns and abandoning the 2nd amendment.
So, this was all smoke, now we can all return to supporting Ted Cruz, who has not affected anything per a leadership position and is all words.
BTW, I vote for the GOP candidate, Trump was the one running.
If he defeats ISIS, if he implements pro-life causes, good. It must not be important to other people, but it is to me.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2017, 05:49:46 am
I guess voting for Trump meant voting for many things, real or imagined. We will see how he does on the RKBA. I'm not seeing 'evolution', I'm seeing entropy in action.
I'm proud as much as possible that he has stood up for the unborn; those are conservative values. Sorry you can't relate to it.
And he has stood up for 2nd amendment rights.
And morality, per rolling back the homosexual agenda, stood up for freedom of religion.
We can always talk about the great do-nothing senator, all words Ted Cruz; that's the ticket.
Trump now has accomplished much more per conservative principles than Cruz. Yes, Trump voters should take a victory lap.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 06:15:27 am
There is no proof "assault weapons" is a left-wing invented term. http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/assault-weapons/
Saying something like "I want to ban assault weapons" if Trump did say this, no source was given, is not the same thing as banning all guns and abandoning the 2nd amendment.
So, this was all smoke, now we can all return to supporting Ted Cruz, who has not affected anything per a leadership position and is all words.
BTW, I vote for the GOP candidate, Trump was the one running.
If he defeats ISIS, if he implements pro-life causes, good. It must not be important to other people, but it is to me.
There's a cure for ignorance.
"In “The America We Deserve,” his book published in 2000, when he was exploring a bid for president under the Reform Party, Trump accused Republicans of being pawns of the gun lobby. “The Republicans walk the NRA line and refuse even limited restrictions,” he wrote. In the same book, he also promoted an assault weapons ban and “a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun.”"
There is no proof "assault weapons" is a left-wing invented term. http://www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/assault-weapons/
Your own link says it is an invented term... It was invented for what purpose Tom? Get a clue.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2017, 06:22:21 am
All of this is a distraction; and I'd tell the moderators, I didn't mean to go off topic.
It seems off topic to imagine some draconian measures taken against gun owners, no laws have been proposed. If they have, this discussion should be in that thread.
But all the same, Trump was the 2nd amendment candidate, when people start talking about fighting their government with firearms, they did not do the minimum for the 2nd amendment to now be saying these kinds of dramatic things.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 08, 2017, 06:37:19 am
I'm proud as much as possible that he has stood up for the unborn; those are conservative values. Sorry you can't relate to it.
And he has stood up for 2nd amendment rights.
And morality, per rolling back the homosexual agenda, stood up for freedom of religion.
We can always talk about the great do-nothing senator, all words Ted Cruz; that's the ticket.
Trump now has accomplished much more per conservative principles than Cruz. Yes, Trump voters should take a victory lap.
Yes, by all means run in circles, Tom. Trump has no monopoly on Conservative anything, but if you want to worship him, it's a free country. You are even free to hate on Senator Cruz.
Who, incidentally, did NOT donate to Schumer or Hillary. :shrug:
Orange smoke is not a 'virtue signal' in my book.
I voted for a man who represented a political Party which uses the Constitution and Bill of Rights as its platform. It doesn't get any more Conservative than that.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 08:41:48 am
I'm proud as much as possible that he has stood up for the unborn; those are conservative values. Sorry you can't relate to it.
Tom, the simple truth is Trump has donated more money to planned parenthood promoting abortion than any Republican candidate for President ever. His money is directly responsible for God knows how many dead babies. It could easily be in the thousands. Actual dead babies. That's real doing in the real world with real results.
And you have the nerve to claim others who don't support your champion are the baby killers... Go look in the mirror to see who supported an actual baby killer with a track record of doing so.
Trump talks about his "New York values" here in his own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsOlXidHXRE
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 08, 2017, 09:10:03 am
Ok. My two cents
Last month I had to get my drivers license renewed. It was ten years since the last time the photo was taken. Anyway, they changed the questions they make you fill out prior to the license
One of them really got my goat. Actually two. One was do you owe child support in this or any other state? The second one was have you ever taken a psychiatric drug? Or seen a psychiatrist?
Big Brother is alive and well. Draw your own conclusions about the second question. I sure as heck did.
There was also an organ donor question on it as well.
Needless to say, I'm mad as heck and I'm not taking this lying down. I wrote to my congresswoman, my Senators and the lame duck governor. Snail mail letters. I told them they all lost my vote come re-election time for this. As for the governor... well, I just said it's wrong. Too Orwellian. (Congresswoman and senators don't know I didn't vote for them to begin with, :)
Now, @Cyber Liberty can I have a chocolate donut? I'm sad from all the writing
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 08, 2017, 09:25:49 am
Last month I had to get my drivers license renewed. It was ten years since the last time the photo was taken. Anyway, they changed the questions they make you fill out prior to the license
One of them really got my goat. Actually two. One was do you owe child support in this or any other state? The second one was have you ever taken a psychiatric drug? Or seen a psychiatrist?
Big Brother is alive and well. Draw your own conclusions about the second question. I sure as heck did.
There was also an organ donor question on it as well.
Needless to say, I'm mad as heck and I'm not taking this lying down. I wrote to my congresswoman, my Senators and the lame duck governor. Snail mail letters. I told them they all lost my vote come re-election time for this. As for the governor... well, I just said it's wrong. Too Orwellian. (Congresswoman and senators don't know I didn't vote for them to begin with, :)
Now, @Cyber Liberty can I have a chocolate donut? I'm sad from all the writing
We are all just wards of the state it seems. People trade their freedom one little bit at a time, over and over, for security that doesn't really come and then wonder where their freedom went... After all these guns laws over the last 30 years are we really any safer? Freedom isn't an infinite well of more. When it goes, it very rarely comes back.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 08, 2017, 10:30:10 am
We are all just wards of the state it seems. People trade their freedom one little bit at a time, over and over, for security that doesn't really come and then wonder where their freedom went... After all these guns laws over the last 30 years are we really any safer? Freedom isn't an infinite well of more. When it goes, it very rarely comes back.
Well said @DB. I cherish my freedom. And chocolate. I'm scared of Big Brother and Brave New World. Some days I really want to go Galt.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 10:39:40 am
Last month I had to get my drivers license renewed. It was ten years since the last time the photo was taken. Anyway, they changed the questions they make you fill out prior to the license
One of them really got my goat. Actually two. One was do you owe child support in this or any other state? The second one was have you ever taken a psychiatric drug? Or seen a psychiatrist?
One of the many reasons I am reluctant to accept a doctor's Rx, no matter how much I may need it. One doc several years ago prescribed an anti-depressant because I wasn't getting any sleep, due to back pain - not because I was depressed. Now I wonder whether that will pop up in a gun purchase background check. **nononono*
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 12:36:34 pm
One of the many reasons I am reluctant to accept a doctor's Rx, no matter how much I may need it. One doc several years ago prescribed an anti-depressant because I wasn't getting any sleep, due to back pain - not because I was depressed. Now I wonder whether that will pop up in a gun purchase background check. **nononono*
Not yet but if we don't stand up it will.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 01:24:09 pm
Yes, by all means run in circles, Tom. Trump has no monopoly on Conservative anything, but if you want to worship him, it's a free country. You are even free to hate on Senator Cruz.
Who, incidentally, did NOT donate to Schumer or Hillary. :shrug:
Orange smoke is not a 'virtue signal' in my book.
I voted for a man who represented a political Party which uses the Constitution and Bill of Rights as its platform. It doesn't get any more Conservative than that.
QFT
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 01:28:18 pm
All 2A supporters and gun enthusiasts will be called the new white nationalist fascists.
Yeah you can already see the left's attempt to connect the two. It hasn't gained much traction...but it will unless something big and something definitive is done to put a stop to it. It's gonna take come courage from some politicians on our side of the aisle that I don't think many of them have to squash that emerging narrative.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 08, 2017, 01:45:51 pm
All 2A supporters and gun enthusiasts will be called the new white nationalist fascists.
I'm long past the point of giving a damn what anyone calls me!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 08, 2017, 01:48:26 pm
Cracks me up about the ol' boys who are talking about their revolution against the government which basically, this macho taking-up-arms talk is about when they would not sully themselves with voting straight for 2nd amendment rights and indeed, other issues that are off-topic here. There is no talk of gun confiscation and really, to have this "Macho Man" talk, is pretty nauseating to me and might not be respectful to the original tragedy.
Criticize me or the president for some remark, taking up arms against the government over some paranoia, no problem. :silly:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 01:53:10 pm
Cracks me up about the ol' boys who are talking about their revolution against the government which basically, this macho taking-up-arms talk is about when they would not sully themselves with voting straight for 2nd amendment rights and indeed, other issues that are off-topic here. There is no talk of gun confiscation and really, to have this "Macho Man" talk, is pretty nauseating to me and might not be respectful to the original tragedy.
Criticize me or the president for some remark, taking up arms against the government over some paranoia, no problem. :silly:
Go back to sleep and don't post again til your sober.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: goatprairie on October 08, 2017, 01:54:02 pm
All the noise made by the usual liberal suspects is just virtue signaling. There's nothing stopping some mad man from collecting a few pistols, shotguns, etc. walking into some senior center or other place congregated by innocent, unassuming people and start blasting away. The body count could be just as high as the LV slaughter with minimal planning ahead of time by the killer. That's just the unfortunate fact of life in the U.S. these days. There are a lot of crazy people capable of inflicting mass casualties by a number of methods other than guns. And nobody will be able to stop a crazy, committed person from getting a gun if they want one. The only protection is to try and identify these people before they strike (a very difficult proposition), be aware of your situation, and for individuals to be possibly armed themselves.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 02:03:08 pm
All the noise made by the usual liberal suspects is just virtue signaling. There's nothing stopping some mad man from collecting a few pistols, shotguns, etc. walking into some senior center or other place congregated by innocent, unassuming people and start blasting away. The body count could be just as high as the LV slaughter with minimal planning ahead of time by the killer. That's just the unfortunate fact of life in the U.S. these days. There are a lot of crazy people capable of inflicting mass casualties by a number of methods other than guns. And nobody will be able to stop a crazy, committed person from getting a gun if they want one. The only protection is to try and identify these people before they strike (a very difficult proposition), be aware of your situation, and for individuals to be possibly armed themselves.
I put some of the blame at the politicians feet and the media as well. Their bombast and rhetoric they toss out there with no thought of the consequences in no small way give the green light or at least inspire some of the craziness we see from unstable people like the shooter in LV.
Places like DU...Kos and the other Liberal mouthpieces on the internet share some of the blame as well.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 08, 2017, 02:06:56 pm
All the noise made by the usual liberal suspects is just virtue signaling. There's nothing stopping some mad man from collecting a few pistols, shotguns, etc. walking into some senior center or other place congregated by innocent, unassuming people and start blasting away. The body count could be just as high as the LV slaughter with minimal planning ahead of time by the killer. That's just the unfortunate fact of life in the U.S. these days. There are a lot of crazy people capable of inflicting mass casualties by a number of methods other than guns. And nobody will be able to stop a crazy, committed person from getting a gun if they want one. The only protection is to try and identify these people before they strike (a very difficult proposition), be aware of your situation, and for individuals to be possibly armed themselves.
I agree. The only way to stop these incidents is to have enough law abiding people armed that there is a good chance the shooter will run across someone ready and able to stop them
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 02:09:42 pm
Cracks me up about the ol' boys who are talking about their revolution against the government which basically, this macho taking-up-arms talk is about when they would not sully themselves with voting straight for 2nd amendment rights and indeed, other issues that are off-topic here. There is no talk of gun confiscation and really, to have this "Macho Man" talk, is pretty nauseating to me and might not be respectful to the original tragedy.
Criticize me or the president for some remark, taking up arms against the government over some paranoia, no problem.
What's not funny is someone....
who can't do a simple search for 'the Second Amendment is obsolete,' find articles going back years from places that aren't crackpot, tin foil sites, and realize that's how previous social changes (good or bad) began.
who hasn't paid attention to duplicitous public figures who have supported various positions in the past and 'evolved' at inopprtune times.
who, despite the obvious forewarnings, later laments the ill changes in culture and liberty, while maintaining an obnoxious and erroneous sense of intellectual superiority.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 02:14:40 pm
who can't do a simple search for 'the Second Amendment is obsolete,' find articles going back years from places that aren't crackpot, tin foil sites, and realize that's how previous social changes (good or bad) began.
who hasn't paid attention to duplicitous public figures who have supported various positions in the past and 'evolved' at inopprtune times.
who, despite the obvious forewarnings, later laments the ill changes in culture and liberty, while maintaining an obnoxious and erroneous sense of intellectual superiority.
:2popcorn:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 08, 2017, 02:27:51 pm
So you would preferred Hillary? I don't think Hillary has evolved much on gun rights.
Quote
Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump Follow More President Obama spoke for me and every American in his remarks in #Newtown Connecticut.
Quote
"I generally oppose gun control," he wrote then, "but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today's internet technology we should be able to tell within 72 hours if a potential gun owner has a record."
We have no evidence that Trump has either.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 08, 2017, 02:37:43 pm
The question isn't what kind of law could have stopped Paddock. I doubt any law could have stopped Paddock;
We agree
Quote
his MO was unique
Shooting at innocent people he had no involvement with from an elevated position. Not at all.
1966, An ex-Marine goes on a killing spree at the University of Texas http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/an-ex-marine-goes-on-a-killing-spree-at-the-university-of-texas
Quote
and everyone knows that every dog has one free bite. The law isn't looking for folks without criminal records, who do not bear elements of suspicion. The police only find who they're looking for.
Yes, it almost always takes someone else who know this is likely to happen and turn them in.
Quote
No, the question is what sorts of laws and protections can stop the copycats. We now have the ghastly model of a methodical killer sniping at strangers from the high floors of a building. That's an open invitation to copycats. We will be seeing hotels requiring folks to go through metal detectors, hotels requiring guests to keep guns in gun safes and not in guest rooms, and hotels and other public spaces banning the carrying of firearms.
And it is foolish to believe this would stop another mass murderer.
Quote
As for the implement of destruction, why shouldn't it be subject to regulation? I don't advocate restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases or the size of a gun collection, but I sure as hell advocate registration and insurance. The same basic regime we require of those we permit to drive cars on public streets. Guns, like cars, are useful but dangerous implements and should be registered with the authorities and made subject to a requirement that their owners insure them with respect to the potential mayhem they can cause.
Because passing more laws doesn't stop someone with means and ability from breaking laws. It is repeated foolishness to do this over and over while ignoring the actual problem, mental health.
Focusing on the tools used, while ignoring the real reason this happens is just guaranteeing it will happen again. We have changed our society to allow individuals of these problems to thrive.
Thoughts on Vegas, and Why Men Keep Doing This https://byrslf.co/thoughts-on-the-vegas-shooting-14af397cee2c
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 08, 2017, 02:38:02 pm
We all know how the left will take calling someone like you or me a name to applying it as a legally enforceable label in short order and then next thing you know we're being turned down at the gun store during our NICS check because we've been identified in accordance with the 2017 Pelosi/McCain Gun Ownership Insurance Law as white supremacists because of previous statements in favor of the 2nd Amendment and smaller government.
It may sound funny now...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 02:43:28 pm
So you would preferred Hillary? I don't think Hillary has evolved much on gun rights.
She lied so much and so often about the issue during the 2008 primary, Obama openly mocked her by calling her 'Annie Oakley.' The point is, she, Trump, and many others routinely make campaign promises that contradict previous statements and true feelings.
I used to reside in Ohio. It's a very gun friendly state and Kasich hasn't done much to change it during his time in office. However, given his past support of the '94 ban, I wouldn't trust him not to 'evolve' once again.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 08, 2017, 02:46:07 pm
Correct. That's why don't support restrictions on the frequency of gun purchases, or the size of a gun collection. I want every gun owner to carry insurance in the same way a driver must. If you can afford to insure a colossal gun collection, then have at it. If not, stick to one or two.
How would this in any way impact what Paddock did? It only raises the cost, keeping more poor from being able to protect themselves.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 08, 2017, 02:47:12 pm
Come back when you have some newer, fresher talking points to make. The ones you and other Trump supporters are using are quite stale.
An oldie but goodie, sorry you don't like it but it is a FACT either Trump or Hillary was going to be the next President of the USA. Ignore reality at your own peril. Just be glad there were enough sane conservatives to elect Trump. You can thank me later. And since you did not help elect Trump and don't support Trump no one outside of the tiny NT community gives a damn about what you think of Trump.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 02:48:30 pm
Trump wasn't my first or 15th choice in the primaries.
Once the general election came it was him or Hillary. So please educate us on what the other choices were.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 02:56:31 pm
On MTP, Hugh Hewitt suggested large (didn't specificy a number) firearm purchases could be 'red flagged' as multiple opioid prescriptions are. *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 03:01:11 pm
On MTP, Hugh Hewitt suggested large (didn't specificy a number) firearm purchases could be 'red flagged' as multiple opioid prescriptions are. *****rollingeyes*****
smh
This is how the left wins. When Conservatives give them an inch...they take a mile.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 03:06:23 pm
No carrying in that situation would have been of no benefit There will always be those situations where there is nothing you can do. But all in all I like my chances better when I am armed than when I am not.
Armed people in a room down the hall likely would have reduced the number people shot, if they were willing to confront the situation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 08, 2017, 04:42:22 pm
No carrying in that situation would have been of no benefit There will always be those situations where there is nothing you can do. But all in all I like my chances better when I am armed than when I am not.
The problem is that too many people knee-jerk to the idea that it's some panacea, not willing to admit to themselves that there are times when firearms are only a bad thing in the situation.
It makes the pro-gun side look like they won't admit reality.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 04:45:29 pm
Yeah you can already see the left's attempt to connect the two. It hasn't gained much traction...but it will unless something big and something definitive is done to put a stop to it. It's gonna take come courage from some politicians on our side of the aisle that I don't think many of them have to squash that emerging narrative.
IMHO, that's the ONLY reason they aren't divulging any ISIS connection, because it would set back 2nd Amendment repeal efforts for at least a generation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 05:09:26 pm
Did this guy really worry about the potential long term financial implications as he set about to commit mass murder?
How would insurance stop this type of action?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: goatprairie on October 08, 2017, 05:20:49 pm
I wonder what measures are being taken now to forestall the kind of attack that happened. Are there outdoor festivals now being held surrounded by big buildings which could conceal a sniper? I haven't read anything about what the people who hold those outdoor events are doing viz. high rise buildings facing the concerts. Have hotels stepped up security as far as luggage carried in by guests? Those are a few things hotels could do, but again, like 9/11, the killers might just change tactics and do something different. Before these things happen, few people wonder if something like that could happen. I doubt any of the people at the concert thought of the possibility of a sniper in a highrise shooting down on them. I've been to music festivals in big cities with skyscrapers not quite as close as the Mandalay but close enough. Never thought of the possibility of a sniper. I was always worried more about walking back to my car in the parking lot late at night after watching the music. Only real one thing you can be sure of....some nut will try it again somewhere.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 05:21:18 pm
IMHO, that's the ONLY reason they aren't divulging any ISIS connection, because it would set back 2nd Amendment repeal efforts for at least a generation.
Yup you're right.
You would think that the terrorist attacks over the last couple of years would have silenced the attempts to repeal the 2A. Especially the one in San Bernardino.
But the left tends to just ignore them like they never happened.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 08, 2017, 05:24:13 pm
Did this guy really worry about the potential long term financial implications as he set about to commit mass murder?
How would insurance stop this type of action?
That's sort of what I was thinking too. How many accidental fatalities or homicides are caused by legal car owners vs. accidental fatalities or homicides caused by legal gun owners?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 08, 2017, 05:24:30 pm
Exactly, because there was no right to horse ownership in the Bill of Rights.
Yeah, really. Can you imagine Jefferson, Madison, Washington agreeing that the government has a right to prohibit horse ownership based on ability to insure it or operate it safely?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ABX on October 08, 2017, 05:37:35 pm
Exactly, because there was no right to horse ownership in the Bill of Rights.
There are listed no 'rights to ownership' to most items in the bill of rights. It was just assumed by the founders that one would, of course, have a right to own their transportation like they would a fork to eat their food or a chamberpot.
The Bill of Rights didn't grant rights, it protected very specific rights from government interference. I doubt the founders would have ever thought of a day when other items like basic transport, would be up for government regulation, otherwise we would have a Bill of Rights protecting those things as large as Jefferson's library.
What the Bill of Rights protected were specific rights they saw being stripped by powers for the specific reason of suppressing the individual and liberty. The British, and other repressive regimes, didn't come into homes regulating chamberpots or what fork you used, but they did strip people of the right to defend themselves and mandated beliefs. They quartered their soldiers in people's homes and imprisoned people without any due process.
The importance of the very specific items called out in the Bill of Rights all have a common theme- the citizen is sovereign.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 05:38:03 pm
Yeah, really. Can you imagine Jefferson, Madison, Washington agreeing that the government has a right to prohibit horse ownership based on ability to insure it or operate it safely?
Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses
The DUI checkpoints could apply to man or beast.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 08, 2017, 05:43:07 pm
There are listed no 'rights to ownership' to most items in the bill of rights. It was just assumed by the founders that one would, of course, have a right to own their transportation like they would a fork to eat their food or a chamberpot.
The Bill of Rights didn't grant rights, it protected very specific rights from government interference. I doubt the founders would have ever thought of a day when other items like basic transport, would be up for government regulation, otherwise we would have a Bill of Rights protecting those things as large as Jefferson's library.
What the Bill of Rights protected were specific rights they saw being stripped by powers for the specific reason of suppressing the individual and liberty. The British, and other repressive regimes, didn't come into homes regulating chamberpots or what fork you used, but they did strip people of the right to defend themselves and mandated beliefs. They quartered their soldiers in people's homes and imprisoned people without any due process.
The importance of the very specific items called out in the Bill of Rights all have a common theme- the citizen is sovereign.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 05:43:18 pm
The British, and other repressive regimes, didn't come into homes regulating chamberpots or what fork you used....
Not quite true. They regulated the type of paper used, which was the basis of the Stamp Act. Modern oppressive regimes, like North Korea, Iran, and China restrict things like types of TVs, radios, cell phones, and internet access you can have.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 05:51:00 pm
So now this conservative forum has descended into why some gun control may be legal and why further restrictions of firearms may be needed.
No. Just no. None of these ideas would have stopped this terrible tragedy. Evil people do evil stuff. The only thing that might have prevented this is stopping him before he did it. Not making it more difficult to use his weapon of choice. Certainly not making it harder for law abiding people and not giving govt more power.
No more compromise. No more gun control. No more.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 08, 2017, 05:52:36 pm
So now this conservative forum has descended into why some gun control may be legal and why further restrictions of firearms may be needed.
No. Just no. None of these ideas would have stopped this terrible tragedy. Evil people do evil stuff. The only thing that might have prevented this is stopping him before he did it. Not making it more difficult to use his weapon of choice. Certainly not making it harder for law abiding people and not giving govt more power.
So now this conservative forum has descended into why some gun control may be legal and why further restrictions of firearms may be needed.
No. Just no. None of these ideas would have stopped this terrible tragedy. Evil people do evil stuff. The only thing that might have prevented this is stopping him before he did it. Not making it more difficult to use his weapon of choice. Certainly not making it harder for law abiding people and not giving govt more power.
No more compromise. No more gun control. No more.
QFT
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 08, 2017, 06:00:06 pm
So now this conservative forum has descended into why some gun control may be legal and why further restrictions of firearms may be needed.
No. Just no. None of these ideas would have stopped this terrible tragedy. Evil people do evil stuff. The only thing that might have prevented this is stopping him before he did it. Not making it more difficult to use his weapon of choice. Certainly not making it harder for law abiding people and not giving govt more power.
No more compromise. No more gun control. No more.
No, "this conservative forum" has not descended into anti-conservatism. A few posters have. They obviously don't understand what they need to understand.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 08, 2017, 06:09:38 pm
The problem is that too many people knee-jerk to the idea that it's some panacea, not willing to admit to themselves that there are times when firearms are only a bad thing in the situation.
It makes the pro-gun side look like they won't admit reality.
Hang on a minute. I said having a firearm at the concert would not have protected one from the sniper. I never said having one there was a bad thing. Had there been follow on ground attacks it would have been a very good thing. I am always safer armed and ready to provide for my family’s defense. I cannot think of one situation I would not want to be armed in. Period.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 08, 2017, 06:15:53 pm
Trump wasn't my first or 15th choice in the primaries.
Once the general election came it was him or Hillary. So please educate us on what the other choices were.
There were other choices. Third party candidates, write-in candidates (where permitted) and just staying home. Maybe they weren't the best choices, but they were still choices.
You, like so many others, are stuck on the 2 party system. You feel you have to elect the Republican because the Democrat would be worse. Maybe that was true at one time, but it's not now. We cannot rely on Republicans (including Trump) to keep the promises they made to the voters. What makes you think they would continue to uphold the Second Amendment?
It's amusing to me that whenever I or anyone else says anything even remotely negative about Trump, we get the old Hillary argument. The election is over and Trump is president now. Time to stop bringing up Hillary and start focusing on what Trump is doing and is going to do. He is willing to collude with the Democrats on Obamacare. What makes you think he won't sell you down the river on every other issue, including gun control?
Trust in Trump is the issue now, not Hillary.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 06:20:27 pm
Hang on a minute. I said having a firearm at the concert would not have protected one from the sniper. I never said having one there was a bad thing. Had there been follow on ground attacks it would have been a very good thing. I am always safer armed and ready to provide for my family’s defense. I cannot think of one situation I would not want to be armed in. Period.
Amen
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 08, 2017, 06:22:45 pm
There were other choices. Third party candidates, write-in candidates (where permitted) and just staying home. Maybe they weren't the best choices, but they were still choices.
You, like so many others, are stuck on the 2 party system. You feel you have to elect the Republican because the Democrat would be worse. Maybe that was true at one time, but it's not now. We cannot rely on Republicans (including Trump) to keep the promises they made to the voters. What makes you think they would continue to uphold the Second Amendment?
It's amusing to me that whenever I or anyone else says anything even remotely negative about Trump, we get the old Hillary argument. The election is over and Trump is president now. Time to stop bringing up Hillary and start focusing on what Trump is doing and is going to do. He is willing to collude with the Democrats on Obamacare. What makes you think he won't sell you down the river on every other issue, including gun control?
Trust in Trump is the issue now, not Hillary.
Earth to @Applewood None of those other candidates had a chance of winning.
Trumps far more open to conservative ideas than anyone else who had a chance of winning. Yes he has supported gun control. At least with him he listens to more than just his big donars.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2017, 06:29:02 pm
There are a lot of crazy people capable of inflicting mass casualties by a number of methods other than guns. And nobody will be able to stop a crazy, committed person from getting a gun if they want one. The only protection is to try and identify these people before they strike (a very difficult proposition), be aware of your situation, and for individuals to be possibly armed themselves.
Not a difficult proposition - an impossible one. The only protection is to be in a position to react to aggression. In this case, it is a fault of the venue and the LEOs that this guy was allowed to continue - Because they were not in a position to react.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 08, 2017, 06:41:25 pm
So you would preferred Hillary? I don't think Hillary has evolved much on gun rights.
No, she hasn't.
But when one faces an known and formidable enemy, the troops get their gear together and are ready to stand and fight. That, especially with a Congress dominated by those who will lose their jobs if they vote away any of our RKBA, would act as a substantial bulwark against that loss.
However, the real enemy of our Rights is the one who claims to be on our side, who 'evolves' in position, who capitulates to the demands by the Liberals to "be reasonable" and compromises, and who will use the power of their office to put pressure on others to do the same.
We unite well against a common and recognized enemy, we do not do so well against a turncoat 'friend'.
I am confident that Hillary would have called for all sorts of things, and gotten none of them. I am not so confident that will be the case here.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 08:16:24 pm
On MTP, Hugh Hewitt suggested large (didn't specificy a number) firearm purchases could be 'red flagged' as multiple opioid prescriptions are. *****rollingeyes*****
Buy two handguns on the same day, and it trips a flag with the BATF. Buy one each day of the week, and it may not, especially if you go to different dealers. Paddock bought from multiple dealers. The last gun purchased the day of the shooting was a bolt action rifle, which though bought hours before the shooting, did not show up at the crime scene (location unknown).
Now, it was the BATF that told (yes, told) dealers to okay the sales of guns involved in the "Fast and Furious" operation, a dozen at a time. Those guns promptly went out of the country to drug cartels, as anticipated, with no way to track them other than to blame American gun dealers after the guns were recovered from crime scenes.
They knew about it, it didn't prevent anything, it facilitated it.
We have two gun shows a year in this area, in state. That means unless I want to travel (250 mile round trip) to 'adjacent' gun shows, I have two buying opportunities aside form local dealers. I might not see anything I want, I might see three or four firearms I want, and if I can afford them, I'd buy them. None of that implies criminal activity. You aren't limited to one loaf of bread or one dozen eggs at the grocery store, either.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 08:19:11 pm
I wonder what measures are being taken now to forestall the kind of attack that happened. Are there outdoor festivals now being held surrounded by big buildings which could conceal a sniper? I haven't read anything about what the people who hold those outdoor events are doing viz. high rise buildings facing the concerts. Have hotels stepped up security as far as luggage carried in by guests? Those are a few things hotels could do, but again, like 9/11, the killers might just change tactics and do something different. Before these things happen, few people wonder if something like that could happen. I doubt any of the people at the concert thought of the possibility of a sniper in a highrise shooting down on them. I've been to music festivals in big cities with skyscrapers not quite as close as the Mandalay but close enough. Never thought of the possibility of a sniper. I was always worried more about walking back to my car in the parking lot late at night after watching the music. Only real one thing you can be sure of....some nut will try it again somewhere.
The solution is obvious! Ban high rise buildings. :thud:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 08, 2017, 08:25:00 pm
It doesn't matter if the beast is sober. I know of guys who were arrested for (and convicted of) DUI, one on a horse, one on a mule, who unsuccessfully contended that not only was the animal sober, but it knew the way home and would not step into traffic.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 08, 2017, 08:36:47 pm
Buy two handguns on the same day, and it trips a flag with the BATF. Buy one each day of the week, and it may not, especially if you go to different dealers. Paddock bought from multiple dealers. The last gun purchased the day of the shooting was a bolt action rifle, which though bought hours before the shooting, did not show up at the crime scene (location unknown).
Now, it was the BATF that told (yes, told) dealers to okay the sales of guns involved in the "Fast and Furious" operation, a dozen at a time. Those guns promptly went out of the country to drug cartels, as anticipated, with no way to track them other than to blame American gun dealers after the guns were recovered from crime scenes.
They knew about it, it didn't prevent anything, it facilitated it.
We have two gun shows a year in this area, in state. That means unless I want to travel (250 mile round trip) to 'adjacent' gun shows, I have two buying opportunities aside form local dealers. I might not see anything I want, I might see three or four firearms I want, and if I can afford them, I'd buy them. None of that implies criminal activity. You aren't limited to one loaf of bread or one dozen eggs at the grocery store, either.
And if you go to a legal gun auction where there are multiple guns you desire and they are within your financial means good old used to be conservative Hugh thinks it's OK if you can't make the purchases because for some reason they might be scary? I bet we could save a lot more pain and suffering by limiting how many statements pundits, politicians, journalists and SJWs are allowed to make in a day,week, month, etc. (http://i39.tinypic.com/2w6rkuw.jpg)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 12:54:07 am
Earth to @Applewood None of those other candidates had a chance of winning.
Trumps far more open to conservative ideas than anyone else who had a chance of winning. Yes he has supported gun control. At least with him he listens to more than just his big donars.
As I said, the choices might not have been good, but they were still choices -- more than just Trump and Hillary.
Perhaps Trump is "open to" some conservative ideals, on certain days of the week or until Ivanka whispers in his ear. I have seen that on such issues as Obamacare, Trump has indicated a willingness to sign any old piece of crap legislation just so he can tell his supporters he kept his promises.
It should bother Trump supporters that he is willing to collude with the Democrats. Anything he might work out with Democrats will not embody conservative ideals. If he decides to collude with the Democrats on gun control, you can kiss the Second Amendment goodbye. And if Trump supporters in their worship of their god, go along with that collusion, then they are not conservative either.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 01:09:31 am
And if you go to a legal gun auction where there are multiple guns you desire and they are within your financial means good old used to be conservative Hugh thinks it's OK if you can't make the purchases because for some reason they might be scary? I bet we could save a lot more pain and suffering by limiting how many statements pundits, politicians, journalists and SJWs are allowed to make in a day,week, month, etc. (http://i39.tinypic.com/2w6rkuw.jpg)
:hands:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 09, 2017, 11:36:27 am
Vegas shooting wouldn’t have happened at my casino: Steve Wynn By Marisa Schultz October 8, 2017 | 10:24pm
Las Vegas casino mogul Steve Wynn suggested Sunday that Stephen Paddock would have set off alarm bells at his properties had he tried launching his mass murder from one of them.
Wynn, namesake of the glitzy Wynn Las Vegas on the strip, said his housekeeping staff is trained to do a visual inspection any time they enter a room, adding that a “Do Not Disturb” sign on a door for longer than 12 hours is investigated. ... More at NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/10/08/vegas-shooting-wouldnt-have-happened-at-my-casino-steve-wynn/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 09, 2017, 12:04:21 pm
My Godson "Likes" the Occupy Democrats page on Face book. Recently one of their ilk reposted that bit from "The West Wing" about the 2nd Amendment. The following is my response to those morons: The writers of "The West Wing" are missing several keys points" According the the U.S. Code Chapter 13 Section 311 Subsection a. The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States. The 10 Amendment to the Constitution states: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The enumerated powers listed in Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution are as follows: ● Congress has the power to impose and collect taxes which are to provide for the debts of the United States, as well as for the common defense and welfare of the country. All such taxes are to be implemented equally through the nation. ● The power to borrow money on behalf of the United States. ● The regulation of commerce, both on the international and interstate levels. This is also to include Indian Tribes as well. ● Congress has the power to establish currency and coin money. ● The power to establish post offices. ● To provide for and maintain a navy. ● Organize, train, and arm a militia. ● Exclusive powers to legislative matters of the country. No where does it say anything about gun control, as a matter of fact according to the enumerated powers as a member of the militia they need to supply you with a weapon and train you in it's proper use. So YES gun Control is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 09, 2017, 12:08:41 pm
Vegas shooting wouldn’t have happened at my casino: Steve Wynn By Marisa Schultz October 8, 2017 | 10:24pm
Las Vegas casino mogul Steve Wynn suggested Sunday that Stephen Paddock would have set off alarm bells at his properties had he tried launching his mass murder from one of them.
Wynn, namesake of the glitzy Wynn Las Vegas on the strip, said his housekeeping staff is trained to do a visual inspection any time they enter a room, adding that a “Do Not Disturb” sign on a door for longer than 12 hours is investigated. ... More at NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/10/08/vegas-shooting-wouldnt-have-happened-at-my-casino-steve-wynn/)
Good to know. I'll never stay at Snoopy Steve's.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 01:13:27 pm
Vegas shooting wouldn’t have happened at my casino: Steve Wynn By Marisa Schultz October 8, 2017 | 10:24pm
Las Vegas casino mogul Steve Wynn suggested Sunday that Stephen Paddock would have set off alarm bells at his properties had he tried launching his mass murder from one of them.
Wynn, namesake of the glitzy Wynn Las Vegas on the strip, said his housekeeping staff is trained to do a visual inspection any time they enter a room, adding that a “Do Not Disturb” sign on a door for longer than 12 hours is investigated. ... More at NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/10/08/vegas-shooting-wouldnt-have-happened-at-my-casino-steve-wynn/)
I understand that the Wynn resorts will be screening or searching your luggage now...like the TSA in airports. Anything to make travel even less of a pleasure than it is now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 09, 2017, 01:22:29 pm
There are listed no 'rights to ownership' to most items in the bill of rights. It was just assumed by the founders that one would, of course, have a right to own their transportation like they would a fork to eat their food or a chamberpot.
The Bill of Rights didn't grant rights, it protected very specific rights from government interference. I doubt the founders would have ever thought of a day when other items like basic transport, would be up for government regulation, otherwise we would have a Bill of Rights protecting those things as large as Jefferson's library.
What the Bill of Rights protected were specific rights they saw being stripped by powers for the specific reason of suppressing the individual and liberty. The British, and other repressive regimes, didn't come into homes regulating chamberpots or what fork you used, but they did strip people of the right to defend themselves and mandated beliefs. They quartered their soldiers in people's homes and imprisoned people without any due process.
The importance of the very specific items called out in the Bill of Rights all have a common theme- the citizen is sovereign.
Vegas shooting wouldn’t have happened at my casino: Steve Wynn By Marisa Schultz October 8, 2017 | 10:24pm
Las Vegas casino mogul Steve Wynn suggested Sunday that Stephen Paddock would have set off alarm bells at his properties had he tried launching his mass murder from one of them.
Wynn, namesake of the glitzy Wynn Las Vegas on the strip, said his housekeeping staff is trained to do a visual inspection any time they enter a room, adding that a “Do Not Disturb” sign on a door for longer than 12 hours is investigated. ... More at NY Post (http://nypost.com/2017/10/08/vegas-shooting-wouldnt-have-happened-at-my-casino-steve-wynn/)
If he wants to keep the Whales spending large sums in his properties his snooping won't last long. Especially now that he's made it public that his housekeepers check out the luggage in the rooms while they are down in the Casino making Wynn even richer than he is now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 01:39:44 pm
If he wants to keep the Whales spending large sums in his properties his snooping won't last long. Especially now that he's made it public that his housekeepers check out the luggage in the rooms while they are down in the Casino making Wynn even richer than he is now.
I didn't see the part about going through luggage in the article....
As for doing a "visual inspection" I expect them to do that. How else can they tell if you need towels, sheets or shampoo?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 01:49:48 pm
If he wants to keep the Whales spending large sums in his properties his snooping won't last long. Especially now that he's made it public that his housekeepers check out the luggage in the rooms while they are down in the Casino making Wynn even richer than he is now.
Its about keeping people going to Vegas and spending money. Just the like the TSA they want the appearance of security but don't care about actual security.
People go to Vegas to party and do things they can't do at home. Searching bags puts people in fear of someone finding their furry handcuffs and drugs. It won't be in place for long.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2017, 02:02:33 pm
@txradioguy So they will go thru someones bag, find a hand gun and call the police. Thats gonna start a kerfuffle
@driftdriver and then that opens a Pandora's Box into what else the maids have found in their snooping...and what they might not have reported (cash, drugs, laptops).
And suddenly you're the owner of a Hotel/Casino that looks more like a ghost town.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 02:17:56 pm
I don't need housekeeping doing a visual "inspection" of my luggage when I'm in the hotel. Especially as a gun owner.
But even before then it's not the job of the housekeeper to keep an eye on me. Their job is to make my bed and replace the towels.
And in the case of most Hotels, keep the soap and shampoo stocked. That's it. I definitely draw a line at rummaging through luggage. TSA does that, and they've become the biggest thieves in the entire travel/hotel experience. The article from the above link about Wynn is silent on luggage.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2017, 02:19:02 pm
And in the case of most Hotels, keep the soap and shampoo stocked. That's it. I definitely draw a line at rummaging through luggage. TSA does that, and they've become the biggest thieves in the entire travel/hotel experience. The article from the above link about Wynn is silent on luggage.
And, who leaves a gun in your luggage in your room when you're not in there?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 02:23:54 pm
And in the case of most Hotels, keep the soap and shampoo stocked. That's it. I definitely draw a line at rummaging through luggage. TSA does that, and they've become the biggest thieves in the entire travel/hotel experience. The article from the above link about Wynn is silent on luggage.
More and more I just want to stop traveling. Since my business involves travel thats gonna be hard but its coming.
In my experience most housekeeping employees in these hotels are either immigrants or very low skilled people. Perhaps you have something different in a bed & breakfast but not in these hotels.
So the person that uses the same towel to clean the toilet, the sink, and the glasses is not going to be going thru your bag. They were probably doing that before but without their employers permission.
I wonder what the legal standard for this is. Its still your property, so is the room technically for the period of the rental.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2017, 02:24:35 pm
And, who leaves a gun in your luggage in your room when you're not in there?
@Sanguine I have. Although I'd greatly prefer not too, mostly because I dont want it stolen. Sometimes when you are traveling its difficult to negotiate all the restrictions.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 09, 2017, 02:26:16 pm
I'm guessing it's in the very tiny print on the paperwork you sign when you check in or book your room online.
@txradioguy No, I've looked but it may be going forward. Its probably in law somewhere. Doesn't matter, unless you are in certain cities it is not illegal to have a firearm in a hotel room. I frequently carry when traveling (if I'm not flying) and if they ban firearms that's a big deal.
Do they also ban knives? How about pillows? People die from suffocation all the time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 09, 2017, 02:40:21 pm
@Sanguine I have. Although I'd greatly prefer not too, mostly because I dont want it stolen. Sometimes when you are traveling its difficult to negotiate all the restrictions.
I have left mine in the safe with my laptop, or locked in the trunk of my car, but never in my unattended luggage.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 02:44:45 pm
And in the case of most Hotels, keep the soap and shampoo stocked. That's it. I definitely draw a line at rummaging through luggage. TSA does that, and they've become the biggest thieves in the entire travel/hotel experience. The article from the above link about Wynn is silent on luggage.
No, this article does not mention a search of luggage, but I did see it elsewhere. I'll look it up when I get home.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 02:51:41 pm
I have left mine in the safe with my laptop, or locked in the trunk of my car, but never in my unattended luggage.
Not all hotels have a safe and if you are taking your car certain places then you cannot legally take your firearm. Military bases, Washington DC, some hospital properties.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 03:52:41 pm
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 09, 2017, 04:02:03 pm
Still waiting for a motive. So many holes in the narrative. I think he might have been laundering money. There is no indication of how a mailman and IRS auditor could afford to become a real estate investor in the 80s with the high interest rates we had then. He owned two planes as well.
His brother Eric is a piece of work, another brother is wanted by police and the last one never mentioned. Two ex-wives with zipped lips.
In his deposition in the slip and fall lawsuit that he lost, he said he gambled one million dollars nightly. Everything was comped and casinos only comp big losers. The games in Las Vegas are rigged to favor the house.
There was mention of many "electronics" and computers found. Were they all wiped clean and nothing can be restored by federal experts? Seems unlikely that the perp could accomplish that on his own.
The cruises and trips all over the world raise questions.
The narrative makes no sense and the longer it takes to get answers, the more suspect the narrative we will be given will be.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 04:04:19 pm
FBI searches Las Vegas gunman's house again
"The search of Paddock's three-bedroom house in a retirement community in Mesquite, Nev. was for 're-documenting and rechecking,' said local police chief Troy Tanner, who accompanied FBI agents as they served the search warrant."
Still waiting for a motive. So many holes in the narrative. I think he might have been laundering money. There is no indication of how a mailman and IRS auditor could afford to become a real estate investor in the 80s with the high interest rates we had then. He owned two planes as well.
His brother Eric is a piece of work, another brother is wanted by police and the last one never mentioned. Two ex-wives with zipped lips.
In his deposition in the slip and fall lawsuit that he lost, he said he gambled one million dollars nightly. Everything was comped and casinos only comp big losers. The games in Las Vegas are rigged to favor the house.
There was mention of many "electronics" and computers found. Were they all wiped clean and nothing can be restored by federal experts? Seems unlikely that the perp could accomplish that on his own.
The cruises and trips all over the world raise questions.
The narrative makes no sense and the longer it takes to get answers, the more suspect the narrative we will be given will be.
@austingirl He might have made the money during the housing boom. When they were loaning money without regard to ability to pay. As a finance person he might have been able to see what was coming.
Personally, I think he had ties to someone like the violent muslim extremists in the Philipines. Certainly he was a lunatic but I think that led him to seek out other lunatics. The complete lack of a trail means he went to great pains to hide it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 04:10:44 pm
Still waiting for a motive. So many holes in the narrative. I think he might have been laundering money. There is no indication of how a mailman and IRS auditor could afford to become a real estate investor in the 80s with the high interest rates we had then. He owned two planes as well.
His brother Eric is a piece of work, another brother is wanted by police and the last one never mentioned. Two ex-wives with zipped lips.
In his deposition in the slip and fall lawsuit that he lost, he said he gambled one million dollars nightly. Everything was comped and casinos only comp big losers. The games in Las Vegas are rigged to favor the house.
There was mention of many "electronics" and computers found. Were they all wiped clean and nothing can be restored by federal experts? Seems unlikely that the perp could accomplish that on his own.
The cruises and trips all over the world raise questions.
The narrative makes no sense and the longer it takes to get answers, the more suspect the narrative we will be given will be.
We may never know the motive, especially if law enforcement can't find something Paddock prepared to say what the motive was.
As for the rest -- unlike TV where crimes are solved in an hour, this investigation could take weeks or months and it is possible we may never know -- not necessarily because something is being hidden from us rubes, but because Paddock was that good at hiding things. I'm inclined to wait to see what develops in the weeks or months ahead, if anything.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 09, 2017, 04:29:13 pm
"The search of Paddock's three-bedroom house in a retirement community in Mesquite, Nev. was for 're-documenting and rechecking,' said local police chief Troy Tanner, who accompanied FBI agents as they served the search warrant."
It's not the same thing as letting Housekeeping rummage through my baggage, but it's close enough. Vegas is out for me (I think their games are crappy anyway. Better ones in Laughlin).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 09, 2017, 05:02:25 pm
"The search of Paddock's three-bedroom house in a retirement community in Mesquite, Nev. was for 're-documenting and rechecking,' said local police chief Troy Tanner, who accompanied FBI agents as they served the search warrant."
If they didn't take the interior of the house down to the studs the first time, they are incompetent. After over 1,000 tips- nada. I think this is the first time that nothing is known after a week.
It appears this "gambler/real estate investor" was a ghost. This whole thing stinks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 09, 2017, 05:19:42 pm
If they didn't take the interior of the house down to the studs the first time, they are incompetent. After over 1,000 tips- nada. I think this is the first time that nothing is known after a week.
It appears this "gambler/real estate investor" was a ghost. This whole thing stinks.
Not necessarily. Certain things like autopsy results, subpoena and review of medical and financial records takes time. What more have we learned about James Fields and his motives, since Charlottesville? Not much. Other than being denied bail and assigned a private attorney, there hasn't been a full disclosure of charges or a court date.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 05:23:54 pm
It's not the same thing as letting Housekeeping rummage through my baggage, but it's close enough. Vegas is out for me (I think their games are crappy anyway. Better ones in Laughlin).
Seems that nowadays, there is a casino around every corner. I have one not far from me. Don't need to go through the hassle of traveling to Vegas.
I used to love to travel, but as I get older, I just don't want to go through all this stuff. First I get groped and searched by TSA. Now it looks like I and/or my luggage will be searched at the hotel. Before long, I won't be able to go anywhere without having my person and my belongings violated. And I expect others will start feeling the same. This will not bode well for tourism, particularly in Vegas.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 09, 2017, 05:40:55 pm
Seems that nowadays, there is a casino around every corner. I have one not far from me. Don't need to go through the hassle of traveling to Vegas.
I'm sure they'll experience a short term drop off, but expect an ad campaign blitz early in the New Year. Some will go for the reputation of the place and want the full Sodom-On-Mojave experience, not just casinos.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 05:44:15 pm
Seems that nowadays, there is a casino around every corner. I have one not far from me. Don't need to go through the hassle of traveling to Vegas.
I used to love to travel, but as I get older, I just don't want to go through all this stuff. First I get groped and searched by TSA. Now it looks like I and/or my luggage will be searched at the hotel. Before long, I won't be able to go anywhere without having my person and my belongings violated. And I expect others will start feeling the same. This will not bode well for tourism, particularly in Vegas.
@Applewood Look on the bright side, soon you'll be able to get a special permit identifying you as a safe traveler to allow you to bypass the security.
Same as they did for air travel
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 05:45:29 pm
I'm sure they'll experience a short term drop off, but expect an ad campaign blitz early in the New Year. Some will go for the reputation of the place and want the full Sodom-On-Mojave experience, not just casinos.
@edpc Forget calling the front desk for a toothbrush or razor. You'll be able to call down to get your favorite sex toy that you didn't want to take through security.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: IsailedawayfromFR on October 09, 2017, 06:04:09 pm
I understand that the Wynn resorts will be screening or searching your luggage now...like the TSA in airports. Anything to make travel even less of a pleasure than it is now.
Do they pat your groin, too, or is that extra? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but: Vegas!)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 06:37:23 pm
Not all hotels have a safe and if you are taking your car certain places then you cannot legally take your firearm. Military bases, Washington DC, some hospital properties.
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 09, 2017, 06:44:15 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
You could get around charges on a machete, because they are classified as agricultural tools. However, some hard-ass LEO would probably give you a hard time about it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 06:46:31 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
@Smokin Joe I've driven through Illinois with firearms in the car but won't do it again. I'll go around next time. I have to go to Virginia next week and am driving instead of flying. Will take a gun only because I'm not going to go to Maryland or DC itself.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: ConstitutionRose on October 09, 2017, 06:46:56 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
That's why I travel with the big white dog. He looks all soft and fuzzy, but his business is protection and he takes that seriously. The hammer is a good idea though. Thanks.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 06:48:46 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
@Smokin Joe Oh and in some states the fact you have a CCW shows up when they run your license. Which may trigger a search in those states.
For some reason telling a cop that you have a CCW raises the perceived threat they face from you. I don't understand why.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 06:51:13 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
That's about the size of it. I don't carry at all to the Hotel we go to sometimes because it's on the res, and those guys can't wait to bust white balls. When I do carry to places I can, they always have a room safe, and the piece goes in there along with all my extra cash.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 09, 2017, 06:54:14 pm
That's about the size of it. I don't carry at all to the Hotel we go to sometimes because it's on the res, and those guys can't wait to bust white balls. When I do carry to places I can, they always have a room safe, and the piece goes in there along with all my extra cash.
@Cyber Liberty I sometimes have to travel to Miami. I'm armed as much as possible there.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 06:59:14 pm
@Smokin Joe I've driven through Illinois with firearms in the car but won't do it again. I'll go around next time. I have to go to Virginia next week and am driving instead of flying. Will take a gun only because I'm not going to go to Maryland or DC itself.
The kinfolk are in MD, and to go through MI, I have to cut through MN. Otherwise, it'd be head south for a long ways and head north on the other side. I just didn't feel like adding another 500+ miles to a 2000 mile trip (one way). I could leave the handgun at a trusted cousin's in VA, but that sort of defeats the purpose. The screwy part is that by traveling across some state line I'd become an instant felon (even though I have been background checked, fingerprinted, etc., but the illegals who travel here do so at will.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 07:18:35 pm
@Smokin Joe Oh and in some states the fact you have a CCW shows up when they run your license. Which may trigger a search in those states.
For some reason telling a cop that you have a CCW raises the perceived threat they face from you. I don't understand why.
You are required to tell them here if you have a weapon on board and if you have a CCW. Here, it doesn't seem to upset them. Elsewhere, they've been watching too much teevee or something. Not all police are firearms enthusiasts. Some only shoot to qualify and don't do so for fun.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 07:21:20 pm
LOL! Now there's a good choice... Somebody gets thumped with a 3lb anvil hammer, all they want to do is go home...
Never underestimate the threat imposed by imminent blunt force trauma. A guy I knew who was a big Viking looking dude carried an Estwing camp axe handy in the cab. I just think the hammer is better in close quarters.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 09, 2017, 07:34:09 pm
Never underestimate the threat imposed by imminent blunt force trauma. A guy I knew who was a big Viking looking dude carried an Estwing camp axe handy in the cab. I just think the hammer is better in close quarters.
Maybe a battery sawzall or something... :D
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 09, 2017, 07:37:15 pm
Never underestimate the threat imposed by imminent blunt force trauma. A guy I knew who was a big Viking looking dude carried an Estwing camp axe handy in the cab. I just think the hammer is better in close quarters.
@Smokin Joe Hammers are less likely to get hung up.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 07:38:59 pm
With a Class 2 ND CCW, there is no reciprocity in Minnesota and Illinois, and I'd be traveling through one or the other on most long trips. Because the destination state is the People's Republik of Maryland, I traveled with a 3 lb hammer next to me instead of my .45. It sucked, but frankly, I was more leery of the LEOs gigging me on a firearms charge in a routine stop or in the event I was involved in an accident than of any locals. In a scuffle, that hammer is a formidable blunt force weapon, though not as good as a firearm. The tactical machete was out, because some places get flaky over large knives, too.
In California, I don't know about now, it used to be a lesser violation to have a loaded gun in the car than a souvenir baseball bat. The gun would get you a misdemeanor while the toy bat was a felony, so a three pound hammer, tire iron, etc. would probably get you a felony rap too. My boss and I found this out when we accidently set off the shop alarm at 3AM just down the street from the Orange, CA. PD. The responding officer was training a rookie female and was really playing it up, I thought my buddy was gonna get locked up when the cop saw the bat in his car and got attitude, my boss gave it right back. I told the cop I would take a misdemeanor and be safe any day, he agreed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 09, 2017, 07:58:08 pm
In California, I don't know about now, it used to be a lesser violation to have a loaded gun in the car than a souvenir baseball bat. The gun would get you a misdemeanor while the toy bat was a felony, so a three pound hammer, tire iron, etc. would probably get you a felony rap too. My boss and I found this out when we accidently set off the shop alarm at 3AM just down the street from the Orange, CA. PD. The responding officer was training a rookie female and was really playing it up, I thought my buddy was gonna get locked up when the cop saw the bat in his car and got attitude, my boss gave it right back. I told the cop I would take a misdemeanor and be safe any day, he agreed.
A guy I knew in Texas found out the locals there take ax handles pretty seriously.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 09, 2017, 08:45:55 pm
I have one of those. DeWalt 20vMax. Beautiful tool. But all the nasty bits that could come of that...and with the blood borne pathogen thing, I think the hammer is safer. (But, D@mn! That would be intimidating...)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 09:29:59 pm
A guy I knew in Texas found out the locals there take ax handles pretty seriously.
Pick handles have more heft...jus' sayin'. They used to be considered a fine Southern educational device and have been used on occasion to heighten 'social awareness'... :nometalk:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 09, 2017, 09:31:35 pm
In California, I don't know about now, it used to be a lesser violation to have a loaded gun in the car than a souvenir baseball bat. The gun would get you a misdemeanor while the toy bat was a felony, so a three pound hammer, tire iron, etc. would probably get you a felony rap too. My boss and I found this out when we accidently set off the shop alarm at 3AM just down the street from the Orange, CA. PD. The responding officer was training a rookie female and was really playing it up, I thought my buddy was gonna get locked up when the cop saw the bat in his car and got attitude, my boss gave it right back. I told the cop I would take a misdemeanor and be safe any day, he agreed.
I always have an assortment of tools in the cab. I can always say the hammer is just one of the pile.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 09, 2017, 10:28:19 pm
Strange new information at today's presser. The sheriff stated that Jesus Campos, the hotel security called a hero for stopping the shooter from continuing his massacre. was actually shot at 9:59 PM just before the massacre even started at 10:05.
Mysteriouser and mysteriouser....
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 09, 2017, 10:42:28 pm
So why was the security guard at or near Paddock's room prior to the shooting?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 09, 2017, 10:49:20 pm
driftdiver wrote: "Look on the bright side, soon you'll be able to get a special permit identifying you as a safe traveler to allow you to bypass the security. Same as they did for air travel"
Assuming this was to happen... Paddock would probably have qualified for such a permit, having no previous record.
So... how does that put us ahead?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 09, 2017, 10:59:38 pm
So why was the security guard at or near Paddock's room prior to the shooting?
The story is that there was an open door alarm going off- not Paddock's door, but highly coincidental. So Paddock laid down 200 shots at him and he got one in the leg? Some people are speculating that security guard may have been involved. Who knows at this point. Also reported there was a maintenance guy in the area -new info. Their entire timeline is now suspect.
Also Paddock now confirmed to have checked in on the 25th, three days earlier than previously stated. That makes the room service receipt for TWO on the 27th with Paddock's name and room number on it not a fake.
The sheriff looks frustrated and several remarks seem to imply the FBI is keeping him in the dark. The FBI handlers were discreetly standing off screen this time instead of looming just behind him.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 09, 2017, 11:02:47 pm
So why was the security guard at or near Paddock's room prior to the shooting?
According to the link, it was an open door alert in another room. Seems like the cameras set up detected him and caused him to shoot at the guard. Now, the question remains as to why the police took so long to respond, if they had the floor and room isolated.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 09, 2017, 11:06:33 pm
According to the link, it was an open door alert in another room. Seems like the cameras set up detected him and caused him to shoot at the guard. Now, the question remains as to why the police took so long to respond, if they had the floor and room isolated.
Lots of questions and no answers. Next press conference not until Friday.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 09, 2017, 11:14:24 pm
If he wants to keep the Whales spending large sums in his properties his snooping won't last long. Especially now that he's made it public that his housekeepers check out the luggage in the rooms while they are down in the Casino making Wynn even richer than he is now.
I heard the interview, and he said NOTHING about "check the luggage."
Each time he mentioned "do not disturb," and "red flags,"" he further stated to be checking on the visitors' wellbeing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 09, 2017, 11:25:15 pm
Lots of questions and no answers. Next press conference not until Friday.
According to this story, they were getting conflicting information about another potential shooter on the 29th floor. Also, the camera wires made them suspect the hallway and door to the room was booby-trapped.
Yep. Shite is changing already. It was previously described as a two bedroom place.
So you tell me, where did the other damn bedroom come from? It must be a conspiracy or they were hiding facts from the very start.
BTW Mesquite is much closer to Saint George Utah, than to Lost Wages. Maybe it was the Mormons !!
Mesquite is ALSO closer to Area 41, too !! Gotta take that into consideration.
Time to call in the Dallas 1963 investigative team. How many shooters ??
St. George? Well, that 'splains it. http://articles.latimes.com/1993-05-30/news/mn-41579_1_time-bomb (http://articles.latimes.com/1993-05-30/news/mn-41579_1_time-bomb)
Blame the bomb! (everyone else does, for everything from Godzilla to Giant Ants).
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 10, 2017, 01:11:10 am
Lots of questions and no answers. Next press conference not until Friday.
I'm beginning to think the federal and local investigators aren't working together. If I remember right, after 9/11, there was going to be a stronger effort at cooperation. I don't know if that ever happened or maybe that excluded working with local authorities.
All I know is, if the FBI and the Sheriff aren't cooperating with each other, that does not bode well for a complete, thorough and accurate investigation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 10, 2017, 01:19:52 am
I'm beginning to think the federal and local investigators aren't working together. If I remember right, after 9/11, there was going to be a stronger effort at cooperation. I don't know if that ever happened or maybe that excluded working with local authorities.
All I know is, if the FBI and the Sheriff aren't cooperating with each other, that does not bode well for a complete, thorough and accurate investigation.
If the FBI, the Sheriff and the locals are cooperating together, we have an unusually large deception going on.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Mom MD on October 10, 2017, 01:31:19 am
If the FBI, the Sheriff and the locals are cooperating together, we have an unusually large deception going on.
Funny because the sheriff seems to be a no nonsense straight shooter kind of guy. Although I could see him concealing information to aid the investigation he doesn’t seem the type to outright lie. I guess appearances can be deceiving but it looks more like chaos and lack of coordination than an orchestrated deception. I guess we will never truly know
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 10, 2017, 02:21:44 am
You are required to tell them here if you have a weapon on board and if you have a CCW. Here, it doesn't seem to upset them. Elsewhere, they've been watching too much teevee or something. Not all police are firearms enthusiasts. Some only shoot to qualify and don't do so for fun.
@Smokin Joe In NYS I was required to tell them. Got pulled over once. Had the window rolled down, License, registration, Insurance card and CCW id in my left hand and both hands on the wheel. When he walked up I very calmly told him I was carrying a loaded firearm and then said: What would you like me to do? I followed his instructions to the letter and both of us went home that day safely. No muss no fuss and it was all good, didn't even get a ticket.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: txradioguy on October 10, 2017, 02:23:58 am
@Smokin Joe In NYS I was required to tell them. Got pulled over once. Had the window rolled down, License, registration, Insurance card and CCW id in my left hand and both hands on the wheel. When he walked up I very calmly told him I was carrying a loaded firearm and then said: What would you like me to do? I followed his instructions to the letter and both of us went home that day safely. No muss no fuss and it was all good, didn't even get a ticket.
Here in Kentucky...if you're a CCDW permit holder the police already know you're a permit holder when they run your tags if they pull you over.
We're required to to exactly what you did with your police encounter in NYS.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 10, 2017, 03:58:20 am
@Smokin Joe In NYS I was required to tell them. Got pulled over once. Had the window rolled down, License, registration, Insurance card and CCW id in my left hand and both hands on the wheel. When he walked up I very calmly told him I was carrying a loaded firearm and then said: What would you like me to do? I followed his instructions to the letter and both of us went home that day safely. No muss no fuss and it was all good, didn't even get a ticket.
That is the correct way to handle it. No muss, no fuss. I got pulled over for a license plate light that was out. I was asked if there were any weapons in the vehicle (I wasn't carrying at the time). I replied "No, Officer, but I have a Carry Permit, anyway". He said, "I know." so apparently it flagged when he ran the plate.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 10, 2017, 11:12:22 am
That is the correct way to handle it. No muss, no fuss. I got pulled over for a license plate light that was out. I was asked if there were any weapons in the vehicle (I wasn't carrying at the time). I replied "No, Officer, but I have a Carry Permit, anyway". He said, "I know." so apparently it flagged when he ran the plate.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 10, 2017, 12:15:23 pm
Contrary to FBI Hooey, Steven Paddock Fits the Profile of a Convert By Pamela Geller - on October 9, 2017
The idea floated by “intel” agencies that Steven Paddock didn’t fit the profile of a Muslim convert is absurd on its face, and further proof that the keystone clowns and their “profilers” at the FBI haven’t a clue. How can they profile what they refuse to acknowledge, learn about or recognize?
The fact is the FBI has nothing. Over a week after the monstrous slaughter, they have nothing and yet they have dismissed ISIS claims out of hand, despite the fact ISIS does not take credit for attacks that are not theirs. Not only did they take credit, they did something they never did before – they doubled and tripled down. The Islamic State (IS) featured an infographic on the Las Vegas attack in the 100th issue of its al-Naba weekly newspaper, and indicated that the shooter, “Abu Abdul Barr al-Amriki,” had converted to Islam six months ago.
Jihad is the only motive that makes any sense. And the fact that the FBI has nothing else points to that. ...Read the rest at Pamela Geller's website (https://pamelageller.com/2017/10/paddock-fits-convert-profile.html/)
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 10, 2017, 12:41:41 pm
According to the link, it was an open door alert in another room. Seems like the cameras set up detected him and caused him to shoot at the guard. Now, the question remains as to why the police took so long to respond, if they had the floor and room isolated.
For me the question is what was he planning on doing? Clearly the guard spooked him. Was the plan all along to shoot up the concert? Or did he have something else in mind?
I'm thinking he had something else in mind, got spooked and decided to rain bullets down on the concert crowd.
Is the reason for all those weapons in his room, because he was planning on arming more then just himself. Were the explosives in his car part of the plan?
This new twist in the plot line changes EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Jazzhead on October 10, 2017, 12:42:29 pm
driftdiver wrote: "Look on the bright side, soon you'll be able to get a special permit identifying you as a safe traveler to allow you to bypass the security. Same as they did for air travel"
Assuming this was to happen... Paddock would probably have qualified for such a permit, having no previous record.
So... how does that put us ahead?
No law could have stopped Paddock. The issue is what sorts of laws may stop copycats.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 10, 2017, 01:02:53 pm
driftdiver wrote: "Look on the bright side, soon you'll be able to get a special permit identifying you as a safe traveler to allow you to bypass the security. Same as they did for air travel"
Assuming this was to happen... Paddock would probably have qualified for such a permit, having no previous record.
I'm beginning to think the federal and local investigators aren't working together. If I remember right, after 9/11, there was going to be a stronger effort at cooperation. I don't know if that ever happened or maybe that excluded working with local authorities.
All I know is, if the FBI and the Sheriff aren't cooperating with each other, that does not bode well for a complete, thorough and accurate investigation.
@Applewood Its been what 7 days. They have almost 600 victims and a crime scene the size of a small city in addition to multiple sites in different states and even one country. Give them a break
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 10, 2017, 01:12:31 pm
@Applewood Its been what 7 days. They have almost 600 victims and a crime scene the size of a small city in addition to multiple sites in different states and even one country. Give them a break
Bullshit. They keep changing the story and adding major details. How about the shot guard? How about now they think he moved into the room on the 25th, not the 28th. They think he did it solo, then had help, then he was solo again.
This is an effing casino with millions of cameras and security and they can't even get the time line down.
This whole damn investigation is a fraud. Someone is tanking it for a reason.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 10, 2017, 01:13:43 pm
@Smokin Joe In NYS I was required to tell them. Got pulled over once. Had the window rolled down, License, registration, Insurance card and CCW id in my left hand and both hands on the wheel. When he walked up I very calmly told him I was carrying a loaded firearm and then said: What would you like me to do? I followed his instructions to the letter and both of us went home that day safely. No muss no fuss and it was all good, didn't even get a ticket.
Amazing how we accept being treated like we are more dangerous than the average citizen, when CCW holders are proven to be law abiding people. Someone who doesn't have a CCW isn't required to tell the officer they have a weapon in the car. Yet in my experience of interacting with police, limited thankfully, the minute they find out you have a CCW they become much more tense /scared.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 10, 2017, 01:14:41 pm
Bullshit. They keep changing the story and adding major details. How about the shot guard? How about now they think he moved into the room on the 25th, not the 28th. They think he did it solo, then had help, then he was solo again.
This is an effing casino with millions of cameras and security and they can't even get the time line down.
This whole damn investigation is a fraud. Someone is tanking it for a reason.
@Frank Cannon Walmart is having a special on tinfoil.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 10, 2017, 01:17:51 pm
Amazing how we accept being treated like we are more dangerous than the average citizen, when CCW holders are proven to be law abiding people. Someone who doesn't have a CCW isn't required to tell the officer they have a weapon in the car. Yet in my experience of interacting with police, limited thankfully, the minute they find out you have a CCW they become much more tense /scared.
Yup that hand immediately goes to their gun and they take a step back.
But we're the ones that took the time to do things the legal way.
Funny how that works.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: jpsb on October 10, 2017, 01:21:30 pm
This whole damn investigation is a fraud. Someone is tanking it for a reason.
Well the FBI lead McCabe is the same guy that "investigated" Hillary emails. That should tell you all you need to know about this "investigation". Has anyone seen Jeff Sessions?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 10, 2017, 01:29:57 pm
Everything I stated there isn't 4Chan rumor. It was directly from the sheriffs dept press briefings.
If you don't want conspiracy theories to take root, you had better get the right information out the first time and do it in an efficient manor.
@Frank Cannon Then instead of waiting a few hours for information you'll be waiting 6 months until they think they have it right. Which would you prefer?
Its a massive crime and I'm sure there is massive confusion and chaos. What you see as a conspiracy I see as an inability to deal with this massive crime as quickly as the nation wants.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 10, 2017, 01:47:42 pm
Bullshit. They keep changing the story and adding major details. How about the shot guard? How about now they think he moved into the room on the 25th, not the 28th. They think he did it solo, then had help, then he was solo again.
This is an effing casino with millions of cameras and security and they can't even get the time line down.
This whole damn investigation is a fraud. Someone is tanking it for a reason.
Because it puts attempts to repeal the 2nd Amendment back for at least a generation....that's why. :shrug:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 10, 2017, 02:06:00 pm
@Frank Cannon Its a massive crime and I'm sure there is massive confusion and chaos. What you see as a conspiracy I see as an inability to deal with this massive crime as quickly as the nation wants.
Then they are incompetent and should be disregarded in all cases. 7 days in at the most videoed city in the world and all we get are lies?
They knew right away the guard was shot. They sat on that. They have no idea if he had an accomplice. They decided to start talking that he did then didn't.
It doesn't effing matter how impatient the public is for information. The cops muddying the water with lies is their own GD fault. They're lazy frauds and everything the FBI does suspect.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 10, 2017, 03:43:43 pm
@Applewood Its been what 7 days. They have almost 600 victims and a crime scene the size of a small city in addition to multiple sites in different states and even one country. Give them a break
I have been saying all along that this investigation isn't like a TV crime show where everything is wrapped up in an hour. I've been trying to discard the rumors and conspiracy theories and paying attention only to the pressers. I thought I could rely on people who should be in the know -- law enforcement.
Now I'm not so sure.
The sheriff or his assistant are the ones talking to the press, but I'm wondering who is really in charge here. The FBI isn't saying anything. Looks to me like they are feeding misinformation to the sheriff, then sitting back and letting him take the heat when something is screwed up.
Maybe law enforcement should stop talking to the press until they get all the facts. Rumors and conspiracy theories will flourish snyway, but at least by keeping their mouths shut, they can't be blamed for disseminating phony facts.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 10, 2017, 04:18:33 pm
Everything I stated there isn't 4Chan rumor. It was directly from the sheriffs dept press briefings.
If you don't want conspiracy theories to take root, you had better get the right information out the first time and do it in an efficient manor.
Exactly. The new timeline changes everything. So does the new check in date. Facts like these should be easily verifiable in eight days. I certainly don't trust the FBI, especially with McCabe in charge.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 10, 2017, 04:23:53 pm
Exactly. The new timeline changes everything. So does the new check in date. Facts like these should be easily verifiable in eight days. I certainly don't trust the FBI, especially with McCabe in charge.
The FBI has let the Boston Bombers go wild even though they had them on the radar. The FBI bungled the Hitlary investigation even though they had her dead to rights. The FBI is investigating the hell out of Trump for a year and have nothing to show for it.
They are the modern version of the Keystone Cops except people die when they perform their comedy.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 10, 2017, 04:46:56 pm
The FBI has let the Boston Bombers go wild even though they had them on the radar. The FBI bungled the Hitlary investigation even though they had her dead to rights. The FBI is investigating the hell out of Trump for a year and have nothing to show for it.
They are the modern version of the Keystone Cops except people die when they perform their comedy.
This crime is the worst mass shooting in the history of the country perpetrated by a white man and yet there is no drumbeat about domestic terrorism, white supremacy and the usual memes of the left. Why? Our rulers are hoping the people will got distracted by something else and just stop asking questions.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 10, 2017, 04:49:01 pm
The FBI has let the Boston Bombers go wild even though they had them on the radar. The FBI bungled the Hitlary investigation even though they had her dead to rights. The FBI is investigating the hell out of Trump for a year and have nothing to show for it.
They are the modern version of the Keystone Cops except people die when they perform their comedy.
@Frank Cannon They also had someone tailing the shooters that ended up attacking the Pamela Geller event. The one that was stopped by local PD who happened to be directing traffic. The FBI agent did nothing to stop the attack or engage the attackers once they started shooting.
The FBI is corrupt, not incompetent. They shoot unarmed people (men, women, and children) and refuse to properly investigate actions which by definition cause severe damage to national security.
I just don't think its an FBI issue here. More than likely this guy was severally mentally ill who probably had connections with some sort of terrorist organization. The 100k wire and more importantly the lack of digital footprints are a red flag. The FBI may be covering up this connection.
The change in timeline and other facts are the result of the chaos and overflow of information beyond the capability of LVPD to handle. IMO
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 10, 2017, 05:11:12 pm
It was really creepy watching the FBI handler at the press conference yesterday. He was watching the sheriff like a hawk, probably ready to step in if sheriff deviated from script. He also was eyeing the press to see how they were swallowing the new BS.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 10, 2017, 06:09:06 pm
The change in timeline and other facts are the result of the chaos and overflow of information beyond the capability of LVPD to handle. IMO
That's probably true and if it is the case they need to keep their mouth shut till details are clear. They are the ones who control the information here. Not the MSM.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 10, 2017, 11:41:35 pm
So those weren't stray shots and he had every intention of starting a huge fire.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 11, 2017, 12:28:21 am
There's something about the "new timeline" that just ain't right.
We're told that Paddock fired in the neighborhood of 200 rounds through the door at the security guard BEFORE he started firing at the crowd. Seems to me that after 200 rounds (probably .223 from an AR) there wouldn't be much of a door left. Pretty much blown away.
The security guard was shot in the leg, but was still conscious. I assume as soon as he was shot, he must have informed the front desk of his location and circumstances. And there were already cops in the hotel, if I recall correctly (on another call).
And given these facts, no police could get to where the guard was in relatively short order? Leaving Paddock with about 12 minutes of "open firing" on the crowd?
And then the police finally arrived -- after he stopped shooting and had [presumably] killed himself -- and didn't attempt to enter the room (probably a room without a door that could easily be "seen into")?
C'mon, folks. This ain't right. What the heck was going on here?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 11, 2017, 12:36:12 am
There's something about the "new timeline" that just ain't right.
We're told that Paddock fired in the neighborhood of 200 rounds through the door at the security guard BEFORE he started firing at the crowd. Seems to me that after 200 rounds (probably .223 from an AR) there wouldn't be much of a door left. Pretty much blown away.
The security guard was shot in the leg, but was still conscious. I assume as soon as he was shot, he must have informed the front desk of his location and circumstances. And there were already cops in the hotel, if I recall correctly (on another call).
And given these facts, no police could get to where the guard was in relatively short order? Leaving Paddock with about 12 minutes of "open firing" on the crowd?
And then the police finally arrived -- after he stopped shooting and had [presumably] killed himself -- and didn't attempt to enter the room (probably a room without a door that could easily be "seen into")?
C'mon, folks. This ain't right. What the heck was going on here?
Well in the cops defense, how exactly do you go about approaching a room like that? You don't know if there are explosives rigged, how many are in the room, what weapons you are facing, etc... High powered rifles will penetrate many "bullet proof" vests at close range. You have to go look at surveillance video to try to find out how many are up there and then get special equipment to deal with a very unknown and dangerous situation. Did it take too long, perhaps, but it was a very difficult problem to deal with.
And to add to that, you don't know if there are other attackers in nearby rooms waiting in ambush jihad style...
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 11, 2017, 12:40:20 am
Well in the cops defense, how exactly do you go about approaching a room like that? You don't know if there are explosives rigged, how many are in the room, what weapons you are facing, etc... High powered rifles will penetrate many "bullet proof" vests at close range. You have to go look at surveillance video to try to find out how many are up there and then get special equipment to deal with a very unknown and dangerous situation. Did it take too long, perhaps, but it was a very difficult problem to deal with.
And to add to that, you don't know if there are other attackers in nearby rooms waiting in ambush jihad style...
Robots. But I doubt they were on hand at that point in time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 12:41:13 am
And then the police finally arrived -- after he stopped shooting and had [presumably] killed himself -- and didn't attempt to enter the room (probably a room without a door that could easily be "seen into")?
C'mon, folks. This ain't right. What the heck was going on here?
One of the reasons given for the delay in entering the room was the cameras and wiring on the food cart in the hallway. The weren't certain the hall, door, and room weren't wired with explosives.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 11, 2017, 12:42:29 am
CNN says this latest story about the fuel tanks came from two law enforcement sources. Which ones? The Sheriff's office? The FBI? And these sources were "briefed on the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly."
Not sure I trust the veracity of this latest story.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 11, 2017, 12:44:15 am
There's something about the "new timeline" that just ain't right.
We're told that Paddock fired in the neighborhood of 200 rounds through the door at the security guard BEFORE he started firing at the crowd. Seems to me that after 200 rounds (probably .223 from an AR) there wouldn't be much of a door left. Pretty much blown away.
The security guard was shot in the leg, but was still conscious. I assume as soon as he was shot, he must have informed the front desk of his location and circumstances. And there were already cops in the hotel, if I recall correctly (on another call).
And given these facts, no police could get to where the guard was in relatively short order? Leaving Paddock with about 12 minutes of "open firing" on the crowd?
And then the police finally arrived -- after he stopped shooting and had [presumably] killed himself -- and didn't attempt to enter the room (probably a room without a door that could easily be "seen into")?
C'mon, folks. This ain't right. What the heck was going on here?
It was a set up by the FBI. Paddock wasn't the shooter. He was the patsy. The "live" stream was prevoiusly recorded and then streamed to hide the getaway of the actual shooter(s).
The FBI wants misinformation out there to rile up the conspiracy theories to elicit people to reveal facts. Like bait. See what I mean? They say one thing and then see who contradicts that information.
Or.
They really are totally incompetent fools.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 11, 2017, 12:48:01 am
It was a set up by the FBI. Paddock wasn't the shooter. He was the patsy. The "live" stream was prevoiusly recorded and then streamed to hide the getaway of the actual shooter(s).
The FBI wants misinformation out there to rile up the conspiracy theories to elicit people to reveal facts. Like bait. See what I mean? They say one thing and then see who contradicts that information.
Or.
They really are totally incompetent fools.
Occam's Razor.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 12:49:04 am
CNN says this latest story about the fuel tanks came from two law enforcement sources. Which ones? The Sheriff's office? The FBI? And these sources were "briefed on the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly."
Not sure I trust the veracity of this latest story.
One of the problems with high profile news stories is the fact outlets rush to get information out and people involved in the investigation may not have the full picture or may have their own agenda.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 11, 2017, 12:51:50 am
One of the problems with high profile news stories is the fact outlets rush to get information out and people involved in the investigation may not have the full picture or may have their own agenda.
I can understand the need for anonymous sources, but lately, I wonder if these anonymous sources are in someone's head.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 11, 2017, 01:06:35 am
Chance the shot security guard was originally an accomplice?
There are plenty of conspiracy theories out there that use that scenario. Another reveal yesterday was that there was a maintenance man on the 32nd floor during the massacre.
Today's CNN story about the incendiary rounds states there were such rounds found in the room as well and bullet-proof clothing and a "breathing apparatus."
It is hard to believe anything the authorities decide to tell us after so much incorrect information.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 11, 2017, 01:11:04 am
Long Live Robert Lavoy Finicum. Murdered by the FBI--January 26, 2016.
Screw the FBI.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 11, 2017, 01:13:12 am
There's something about the "new timeline" that just ain't right.
We're told that Paddock fired in the neighborhood of 200 rounds through the door at the security guard BEFORE he started firing at the crowd. Seems to me that after 200 rounds (probably .223 from an AR) there wouldn't be much of a door left. Pretty much blown away.
The security guard was shot in the leg, but was still conscious. I assume as soon as he was shot, he must have informed the front desk of his location and circumstances. And there were already cops in the hotel, if I recall correctly (on another call).
And given these facts, no police could get to where the guard was in relatively short order? Leaving Paddock with about 12 minutes of "open firing" on the crowd?
And then the police finally arrived -- after he stopped shooting and had [presumably] killed himself -- and didn't attempt to enter the room (probably a room without a door that could easily be "seen into")?
C'mon, folks. This ain't right. What the heck was going on here?
The whole thing is hinky. I have no faith in the FBI. The sheriff actually called the change in timeline "minute." It is immense and changes everything.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Suppressed on October 11, 2017, 01:41:00 am
Occam's Razor says that this investigation is going like a typical police investigation -- where not everything is released to the public, and, in fact, false information is released to the public.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:44:09 am
Contrary to FBI Hooey, Steven Paddock Fits the Profile of a Convert By Pamela Geller - on October 9, 2017
The idea floated by “intel” agencies that Steven Paddock didn’t fit the profile of a Muslim convert is absurd on its face, and further proof that the keystone clowns and their “profilers” at the FBI haven’t a clue. How can they profile what they refuse to acknowledge, learn about or recognize?
The fact is the FBI has nothing. Over a week after the monstrous slaughter, they have nothing and yet they have dismissed ISIS claims out of hand, despite the fact ISIS does not take credit for attacks that are not theirs. Not only did they take credit, they did something they never did before – they doubled and tripled down. The Islamic State (IS) featured an infographic on the Las Vegas attack in the 100th issue of its al-Naba weekly newspaper, and indicated that the shooter, “Abu Abdul Barr al-Amriki,” had converted to Islam six months ago.
Jihad is the only motive that makes any sense. And the fact that the FBI has nothing else points to that. ...Read the rest at Pamela Geller's website (https://pamelageller.com/2017/10/paddock-fits-convert-profile.html/)
The FBI has been asserting that no terrorist act occurred since they hijacked the investigation of Flight 800 from the NTSB. It has as much significance as them saying "We are here.", especially since the Islamist (MB) infused Obama Administration held them hostage for the last 8 years.
They announced before all the data was in, which tells me they are full of crap and spouting the standard party line to 'prevent panic and reprisal' that they have been dumping on the public for decades now.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:49:46 am
For me the question is what was he planning on doing? Clearly the guard spooked him. Was the plan all along to shoot up the concert? Or did he have something else in mind?
I'm thinking he had something else in mind, got spooked and decided to rain bullets down on the concert crowd.
Is the reason for all those weapons in his room, because he was planning on arming more then just himself. Were the explosives in his car part of the plan?
This new twist in the plot line changes EVERYTHING.
Yes, it does, and it raises far more questions than the official version can answer. I'm no tinfoil hat guy, but when the evidence makes no sense for the narrative, the narrative is wrong or something has been missed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 11, 2017, 01:50:13 am
The FBI has been asserting that no terrorist act occurred since they hijacked the investigation of Flight 800 from the NTSB. It has as much significance as them saying "We are here.", especially since the Islamist (MB) infused Obama Administration held them hostage for the last 8 years.
They announced before all the data was in, which tells me they are full of crap and spouting the standard party line to 'prevent panic and reprisal' that they have been dumping on the public for decades now.
Preach it brother! :amen: and :amen:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:51:05 am
No law could have stopped Paddock. The issue is what sorts of laws may stop copycats.
See the first part of your statement. No law could have stopped Paddock. What makes you think that any law would have a different effect (none) on copycats?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:53:59 am
Bullshit. They keep changing the story and adding major details. How about the shot guard? How about now they think he moved into the room on the 25th, not the 28th. They think he did it solo, then had help, then he was solo again.
This is an effing casino with millions of cameras and security and they can't even get the time line down.
This whole damn investigation is a fraud. Someone is tanking it for a reason.
Bottom line: If they get enough different stories out there, people won't have any hard data, and cannot refute emotional arguments with reason. Thus, reasonable heads will not be able to prevail because all the facts will be reduced to so much chaff in jetwash.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:57:32 am
Then they are incompetent and should be disregarded in all cases. 7 days in at the most videoed city in the world and all we get are lies?
They knew right away the guard was shot. They sat on that. They have no idea if he had an accomplice. They decided to start talking that he did then didn't.
It doesn't effing matter how impatient the public is for information. The cops muddying the water with lies is their own GD fault. They're lazy frauds and everything the FBI does suspect.
It never ceases to amaze me that investigative bodies are so afraid to use the proper response to many questions early on: "We don't know...yet."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 02:03:22 am
This crime is the worst mass shooting in the history of the country perpetrated by a white man and yet there is no drumbeat about domestic terrorism, white supremacy and the usual memes of the left. Why? Our rulers are hoping the people will got distracted by something else and just stop asking questions.
Those are common Leftist points, and you bring up that they are conspicuously absent from the discussion. That may well indicate that they have some idea (or more) telling them who is and who is not involved. That they are trying to keep politically inconvenient sentiments from surfacing and being expressed. That they are doing the usual "not terrorism" dance even without facts. All point in the same general direction. They do not (ever!) want to be put in the position of apologizing to anyone on the Right. Which means look left, because they don't want the blame to fall over there and will do anything to protect Leftists or Islamists from direct blame. Anything inconvenient to the Left's victimhood will likely be suppressed or show up in very fine print somewhere in the back of style section.
There remains the possibility that this is the sole act of a nutcase, but the sheer number of firearms present makes me think other things were afoot.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 02:16:52 am
This crime is the worst mass shooting in the history of the country perpetrated by a white man and yet there is no drumbeat about domestic terrorism, white supremacy and the usual memes of the left. Why? Our rulers are hoping the people will got distracted by something else and just stop asking questions.
Domestic terrorism would generally lead to sympathy for the victims. Look how that played for the gay community in the wake of the Pulse nightclub shooting. You can't have those sentiments generated for the people who like their guns, bibles, values, and independence.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Bigun on October 11, 2017, 02:20:06 am
This crime is the worst mass shooting in the history of the country perpetrated by a white man and yet there is no drumbeat about domestic terrorism, white supremacy and the usual memes of the left. Why? Our rulers are hoping the people will got distracted by something else and just stop asking questions.
Sorry but no! That happened in South Dakota many years ago!
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 11, 2017, 02:46:06 am
Now it appears that the shooter's home was broken into over the weekend- through the front door, no less. No suspects, not known if anything is missing, they say. I guess that is why they went back to "recheck."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 11, 2017, 02:48:50 am
It never ceases to amaze me that investigative bodies are so afraid to use the proper response to many questions early on: "We don't know...yet."
That would be proper. I am not yet willing to put on my tinfoil hat and cinch down the chinstrap... Remember folks, we're talking about 10 minutes... This could all be 'fog of war'.
IF they had beat cops in the building, how long does it take to get up 30 floors and get mapped and situated in a building that size? how long to go back out to the squad car for heavier armament and protection? Response time, even onsite in a place that size is going to take up a lot of valuable time. And all it takes is the security guard's radio being damaged in the first shootout to make the whole response thing less plausible, even yet... And that's IF they already had folks onsite.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 11, 2017, 02:51:23 am
Now it appears that the shooter's home was broken into over the weekend- through the front door, no less. No suspects, not known if anything is missing, they say. I guess that is why they went back to "recheck."
One would hope that absolutely everything in that home was photographed, logged and hauled off and stored as evidence. You don't know what might be important until it is completely done - if ever.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 11, 2017, 03:01:39 am
Now it appears that the shooter's home was broken into over the weekend- through the front door, no less. No suspects, not known if anything is missing, they say. I guess that is why they went back to "recheck."
Wow.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 11, 2017, 03:32:37 am
Well in the cops defense, how exactly do you go about approaching a room like that? You don't know if there are explosives rigged, how many are in the room, what weapons you are facing, etc... High powered rifles will penetrate many "bullet proof" vests at close range. You have to go look at surveillance video to try to find out how many are up there and then get special equipment to deal with a very unknown and dangerous situation. Did it take too long, perhaps, but it was a very difficult problem to deal with.
And to add to that, you don't know if there are other attackers in nearby rooms waiting in ambush jihad style...
@DB link Quite a few departmetns have those remote control robots now. I don't know if LVPD does, but given the fact that it is a fairly large city...........
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 11, 2017, 03:41:07 am
@DB link Quite a few departmetns have those remote control robots now. I don't know if LVPD does, but given the fact that it is a fairly large city...........
Robots are helpful. But what are you going to do if the door is closed? And to have stopped him you'll have to arm the robot. Is that legal?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 11, 2017, 03:58:55 am
Something interesting that's up on FoxNews.com (the link at the bottom has a number of different stories):
'MGM Resorts International, owner of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino, has questioned the new timeline. "We cannot be certain about the most recent timeline that has been communicated publically (sic), and we believe what is currently being expressed may not be accurate," Debra DeShong, a spokeswoman for MGM, said in a statement.'
Something interesting that's up on FoxNews.com (the link at the bottom has a number of different stories):
'MGM Resorts International, owner of the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino, has questioned the new timeline. "We cannot be certain about the most recent timeline that has been communicated publically (sic), and we believe what is currently being expressed may not be accurate," Debra DeShong, a spokeswoman for MGM, said in a statement.'
That statement is disputed here:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/11/mgm-resorts-disputes-las-vegas-police-timeline-shooting.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/11/mgm-resorts-disputes-las-vegas-police-timeline-shooting.html) and better reported, here: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/10/las-vegas-shooting-timeline-change-raises-questions-about-hotel-security-police-response.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/10/las-vegas-shooting-timeline-change-raises-questions-about-hotel-security-police-response.html)
The MGM statement came from a public relations firm, and my bet is that they are trying to reduce their liability profile in all this. If the shooter had fired 200 rounds at the security guard and wounded him, the management should have been aware there was a problem, and had police notified and responding before the shooter started firing on the concert. That would have reduced the response time, even though it is unlikely it owuld have completely prevented the incident. But because time equals rounds downrange, some lawyer somewhere is going to try to make hay out of that if they can (It's what they do!), and the more MGM can call that delay into question, the less likely they will face any sort of lawsuit.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 11, 2017, 10:42:10 am
What a mess.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 10:58:51 am
As long as the investigation appears to be a mess, and the motives of the shooter are unclear, the left can blame the device used, instead of the ideology of the shooter, incompetence on the part of any security staff or other folks, or any group which may have influenced an allegedly wealthy man to become a mass murderer (presuming he acted alone and perpetrated the crime).
There may be many layers to this that end up reading like a spy novel, but if that was disclosed in any credible way, the whole idea of banning something else would go out the window, because people would no longer attribute the crime to an inert device, but the demented workings on one or more humans, and possibly some cultural belief or other factor.
It serves the Left to keep the confusion going, and the more muddle seems to be there, the more they can convey the idea that law enforcement isn't enough, they have to ban something. As in Sandy Hook, when the emotional response calmed somewhat and the shooting became the product of a demented kid, the wind went out of the sails of the anti-RKBA folks, and they don't want to wait until the facts are known to push emotionally based legislation out of fear that when people find out this hoopla is over a piece of plastic that can't fire a bullet, the whole movement will lose momentum and stall.
I might add, I'm damned disappointed in the NRA over their response in this, too.
If we go there, if we decide the crime is somehow the device's fault and ban the device, what device will be next? What happened to punishing criminals, not things?--and especially not the law abiding gun owner?
"Guns don't kill people, people do. " was once a slogan, and if the NRA is willing to trade off any part of a firearm over this, they lose my support (Golden Eagle Member since the SATF ended, and was a charter member of that).
As for MGM and the hotel/staff, they are in CYA mode, and keeping things muddled may mean paying a lot fewer lawyers a lot less in the long run. Even a successful defense costs money.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: verga on October 11, 2017, 11:43:10 am
Robots are helpful. But what are you going to do if the door is closed? And to have stopped him you'll have to arm the robot. Is that legal?
@DB link Up thread it said that approximately 200 rounds were put through the door. 200 rounds are going to leave some pretty big holes you can put a camera through. second there are a lot of non-lethal choices, tear gas, flash bang grenade, Taser, to name three off the top of my head. Any of these would either disable or disorient someone enough to make a breach more feasible or safer.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 11, 2017, 12:03:23 pm
@DB link Quite a few departmetns have those remote control robots now. I don't know if LVPD does, but given the fact that it is a fairly large city...........
@DB link Up thread it said that approximately 200 rounds were put through the door. 200 rounds are going to leave some pretty big holes you can put a camera through. second there are a lot of non-lethal choices, tear gas, flash bang grenade, Taser, to name three off the top of my head. Any of these would either disable or disorient someone enough to make a breach more feasible or safer.
200 rounds are also going to leave big enough holes that approaching the door without being seen is unlikely.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 12:38:01 pm
200 rounds are also going to leave big enough holes that approaching the door without being seen is unlikely.
One of those little robots with a camera could get a peek, though.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 11, 2017, 01:25:53 pm
Today's "developments" cooperative girlfriend is now on the no fly list. Her attorney is saying her role in the shooter's life changed over time from an intimate companion to "caretaker." That's odd. He was apparently didn't need any caretaking to buy those guns, ammo, body armor etc. This narrative is absurd on its face.
Sheriff states shooter's brain was "normal."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 11, 2017, 01:27:04 pm
Curiouser and curiouser.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 11, 2017, 01:33:25 pm
Today's "developments" cooperative girlfriend is now on the no fly list. Her attorney is saying her role in the shooter's life changed over time from an intimate companion to "caretaker." That's odd. He was apparently didn't need any caretaking to buy those guns, ammo, body armor etc. This narrative is absurd on its face.
Sheriff states shooter's brain was "normal."
I suppose "normal" as in no organic, physiological cause of mental illness, such as a brain tumor or a concussion? But he could still have had mental illness without any physical cause.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 11, 2017, 01:37:14 pm
200 rounds are also going to leave big enough holes that approaching the door without being seen is unlikely.
Assuming the report of 200 rounds is correct. I saw a fox report with a couple members of the swat team. The swat team guy, he was one of those that breached the room, said you could see in through the holes. He said he saw rifles and a body.
The pictures we have of that door show the top half of the left door (it was a double door) missing. The suspect may have stood behind it and sprayed a bunch of rounds down the hallway. 200 rounds would have required reloading even using the 100rd drums the guy had in the room.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 11, 2017, 01:38:50 pm
One of those little robots with a camera could get a peek, though.
Those robots aren't fast and deploying one to the 32 floor would have taken time. The hotels are HUGE and even carrying it would have taken 10-15 minutes.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 11, 2017, 01:46:43 pm
Today's "developments" cooperative girlfriend is now on the no fly list. Her attorney is saying her role in the shooter's life changed over time from an intimate companion to "caretaker." That's odd. He was apparently didn't need any caretaking to buy those guns, ammo, body armor etc. This narrative is absurd on its face.
Sheriff states shooter's brain was "normal."
I have a feeling there will be a lot of people distancing themselves, if for no other reason than CYA.
No tumor, means no pathology to support a personality change, maybe something in toxicology....
Otherwise, there is a different problem involved, and some other motive that might be possibly understood if the FeeBies don't muck up the investigation.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 11, 2017, 02:28:42 pm
Her attorney is saying her role in the shooter's life changed over time from an intimate companion to "caretaker." That's odd. He was apparently didn't need any caretaking to buy those guns, ammo, body armor etc. This narrative is absurd on its face.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 02:36:16 pm
The stories and info keep changing, but the latest could mean he was in the process of setting up, when the guard came along to investigate the door alarm. After seeing him on the cameras, Paddock fired through the door. The long pause before opening up on the crowd may have been Paddock breaking windows out and setting up in haste.
All a big guess on my part, since new information comes out frequently and contradicts the previous release.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 11, 2017, 02:37:39 pm
Sheriff gave an interview to the Las Vegas paper today saying that contrary to earlier reports, the GF had no concern over shooter's mental health. Also GF and brother Eric have not been cleared of wrongdoing.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 11, 2017, 04:41:15 pm
Fly a drone with a camera right through the window.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 11, 2017, 05:12:51 pm
Could have worked. IIRC, there were drapes blowing out the window, but a skilled pilot should have been able to tease one through.
That country singer probably had some up filming his event. Fly one through and even if it doesn't take pictures it may distract the shooter and he stops shooting people.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: roamer_1 on October 11, 2017, 05:57:51 pm
That country singer probably had some up filming his event. Fly one through and even if it doesn't take pictures it may distract the shooter and he stops shooting people.
No one on the ground knew where it was coming from. If they had, and someone was quick to think, redirecting all the spotlights at him would have wrecked his vision.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 11, 2017, 06:17:28 pm
That country singer probably had some up filming his event. Fly one through and even if it doesn't take pictures it may distract the shooter and he stops shooting people.
@bigheadfred Not many people would have the ability to respond like this while under fire. Keeping in mind it was dark and you couldn't see the broken windows.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: truth_seeker on October 11, 2017, 06:48:54 pm
That country singer probably had some up filming his event. Fly one through and even if it doesn't take pictures it may distract the shooter and he stops shooting people.
Not with the venue being separated from McCarran Airport by a fence. FAA wouldn't allow it.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Fishrrman on October 11, 2017, 07:22:46 pm
verga wrote: "@DB link Up thread it said that approximately 200 rounds were put through the door. 200 rounds are going to leave some pretty big holes you can put a camera through."
As I wrote yesterday, HOW MUCH OF THE DOOR WOULD BE LEFT, after 200 rounds of .223 were fired at it in psuedo-automatic mode?
What hotel would not respond in very short order that someone was (for all practical purposes) firing an automatic weapon on one of their floors?
Particularly if the police were ALREADY ON THE PREMISES (as they were).
The police department timeline is wrong. If it is not, then something IS VERY WRONG in the way the hotel responded to this (supposedly) initial incident before the main firing at the crowd began.
Both the security guard AND a maintenance man were on the 32nd floor.
Where are these two individuals now? Have they for some reason retained legal counsel? Are they no longer willing to talk? If so, WHY?
Why not produce both of them before a select audience of reporters, and give them a chance to tell their story directly to the public?
That should clear up a lot of the confusion right away.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 11, 2017, 07:35:16 pm
verga wrote: "@DB link Up thread it said that approximately 200 rounds were put through the door. 200 rounds are going to leave some pretty big holes you can put a camera through."
As I wrote yesterday, HOW MUCH OF THE DOOR WOULD BE LEFT, after 200 rounds of .223 were fired at it in psuedo-automatic mode?
What hotel would not respond in very short order that someone was (for all practical purposes) firing an automatic weapon on one of their floors?
Particularly if the police were ALREADY ON THE PREMISES (as they were).
The police department timeline is wrong. If it is not, then something IS VERY WRONG in the way the hotel responded to this (supposedly) initial incident before the main firing at the crowd began.
Both the security guard AND a maintenance man were on the 32nd floor.
Where are these two individuals now? Have they for some reason retained legal counsel? Are they no longer willing to talk? If so, WHY?
Why not produce both of them before a select audience of reporters, and give them a chance to tell their story directly to the public?
That should clear up a lot of the confusion right away.
@Fishrrman Why aren't they talking? Because a lawyer told them not too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 11, 2017, 07:57:21 pm
@Fishrrman Why aren't they talking? Because a lawyer told them not too.
Probably both the union and the casino lawyer agree on this. Union rep wants damages for employee and casino rep knows once that door opens (no pun intended), it exposes MGM to massive liability from the other victims.
Also, there is this story of armed security at Campos' residence.
The security guard now has armed security guards. I guess his employer is a paying to keep him under wraps.
That could be for a host of reasons:
1:To keep him safe from the media's 24/7 paparazzi pestering.
2: In the event others are involved, to keep him safe from any reprisal/threat (assuming unknown conspirators working with the gunman exist) or in case of that possibility.
3: To keep the reporters away so he doesn't say something that can be twisted around and made into something it is not.
4: To keep ambulance chasers and personal injury lawyers away from him so they aren't badgering him into making statements which might reflect badly on the hotel.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 12, 2017, 02:38:03 pm
ISIS jihadi site claims Amaq, the official ISIS news agency, has video of Paddock, Vegas By Pamela Geller (https://pamelageller.com/2017/10/paddock-vegas-isis.html/) - on October 11, 2017
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: driftdiver on October 12, 2017, 02:41:42 pm
ISIS jihadi site claims Amaq, the official ISIS news agency, has video of Paddock, Vegas By Pamela Geller (https://pamelageller.com/2017/10/paddock-vegas-isis.html/) - on October 11, 2017
We know: 1. He had cameras in the room. 2. The cops have said some of the cameras were positioned to capture him shooting 3. The cops have said the cameras didn't record the video 4. He transferred 100k to someone in the Philipines
My guess is he live streamed the video to some radical muslim group.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 12, 2017, 02:44:41 pm
ISIS jihadi site claims Amaq, the official ISIS news agency, has video of Paddock, Vegas By Pamela Geller (https://pamelageller.com/2017/10/paddock-vegas-isis.html/) - on October 11, 2017
Oh, wow.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 12, 2017, 02:47:12 pm
So let's see this alleged video.
Sorry guys, but I don't buy the jihadi theory.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 12, 2017, 02:53:43 pm
1:To keep him safe from the media's 24/7 paparazzi pestering.
2: In the event others are involved, to keep him safe from any reprisal/threat (assuming unknown conspirators working with the gunman exist) or in case of that possibility.
3: To keep the reporters away so he doesn't say something that can be twisted around and made into something it is not.
4: To keep ambulance chasers and personal injury lawyers away from him so they aren't badgering him into making statements which might reflect badly on the hotel.
The security guard is going to be on "Hannity" tonight. Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 12, 2017, 03:02:59 pm
You'd think they'd have it out right away, like they did with the pilot they burned alive.
Besides, Pam Geller..... *****rollingeyes*****
So, what do we know about Geller? I know very little. Don't know if she's credible or not.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2017, 03:58:48 pm
I'd say Geller has been guilty of rushing to judgements; that's definitely true but often, I still find her insight to be on the mark and entertaining. Again, just being honest is a plus even if it means messing up from time to time. She has. She will jump to conclusions. I see her as making comments and not reporting the news. Robert Spencer of jihadwatch does that sometimes too. I think he jumped on to this being ISIS as well.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 12, 2017, 04:00:13 pm
Quote
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/11/bellhop-reportedly-helped-las-vegas-gunman-with-bags-as-resort-cops-differ-over-timeline.html Vegas shooter had access to service elevators
So, at this point, it probably doesn't mean anything except it might have been easier to get his stuff up to the room without suspicion.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: thackney on October 12, 2017, 04:05:08 pm
Adding to the confusion: there are no surveillance cameras in the floor’s hallway, but only on elevator banks, and the timestamps on the hotel’s communications systems in some cases may have been off, Clark County Assistant Sheriff Tom Roberts told the Los Angeles Times Tuesday
and:
But Lombardo said Monday officers weren’t even aware of Campos’ situation until they arrived on the 32nd floor 18 minutes after he was shot, raising doubts resort security relayed the message to police.
Even more damning: Roberts, in his interview, said the hotel dispatched its own armed security team that arrived “right around the same time” as Las Vegas officers....
"We are talking six minutes here. This is amazing and shocking that they didn't respond faster," Richard A. Patterson, who has filed legal papers to prevent the distribution of Paddock’s assets on behalf of victim John Phippen's family, told the Los Angeles Times.
He added: "I think everybody's question is, what if they had gotten there? There are high-speed elevators to the 32nd floor. A couple of minutes makes all the difference. At the very least, they could have distracted the killer. Maybe they could have prevented it."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 12, 2017, 05:40:44 pm
I am eagerly waiting for tomorrow's promised press conference to see what they'll feed us.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 12, 2017, 10:49:46 pm
Casino condenses timeline of start of mass shooting in Las Vegas
The corporate owner of the high-rise Las Vegas Strip casino from which a gunman unleashed one of the deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history is squeezing a disputed police timeline of the start of the massacre down to seconds.
MGM Resorts International said in a statement Thursday that shots were fired into a music festival crowd “at the same time as, or within 40 seconds after” a security guard first reported by hotel dispatch radio that shots were fired.
The casino company says Las Vegas police accounts saying the casino security guard was wounded at 9:59 p.m. Oct. 1, and that gunfire out the hotel windows began 6 minutes later, are inaccurate.
Casino condenses timeline of start of mass shooting in Las Vegas
The corporate owner of the high-rise Las Vegas Strip casino from which a gunman unleashed one of the deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history is squeezing a disputed police timeline of the start of the massacre down to seconds.
MGM Resorts International said in a statement Thursday that shots were fired into a music festival crowd “at the same time as, or within 40 seconds after” a security guard first reported by hotel dispatch radio that shots were fired.
The casino company says Las Vegas police accounts saying the casino security guard was wounded at 9:59 p.m. Oct. 1, and that gunfire out the hotel windows began 6 minutes later, are inaccurate.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 15, 2017, 05:35:14 pm
Quote
CNN's legal team going after impostor CNN site after fake story runs of security guard being Paddock's co-conspirator
When it comes to “fake news,” even CNN has its limits.
And apparently, pretending you’re CNN while running a made-up story about a Las Vegas security guard being arrested for complicity in Stephen Paddock’s brutal rampage is a bridge too far.
On Thursday, an article by a website called “CNN International” made the rounds by claiming that security guard Jesus Campos, who was wounded prior to the mass shooting, was actually a Paddock co-conspirator.
Yup, I hate to admit it but they fooled me :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mountaineer on October 16, 2017, 12:20:25 pm
Just saw this on Twitter: a guy went to the Mandalay Bay to get answers to his own questions about the shooting. He's now been banned from the premises. He shares his findings in a series of comments.
Quote
Nick @Nick_Falco 16h16 hours ago Replying to @Nick_Falco
8. I had clear view of Paddocks room, concert & fuel tanks
Shooter didnt need 2nd window to shoot people & fuel tanks
Why break 2 windows? ________________________ Nick @Nick_Falco 16h16 hours ago Replying to @Nick_Falco
6. There are visible surveillance cameras in all service elevators.
There was no reason for Paddock to use these to get around security.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 16, 2017, 12:41:41 pm
The question about the windows is easily answered. The inboard room angle had a slightly obstructed sight line due to lighting and large screens around the stage area. He was probably anticipating crowd movement once shooting began. Since the airport fence was on the far side of the field, it limited directions of egress.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 16, 2017, 05:41:34 pm
I wonder if we'll get another presser-ever.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 16, 2017, 05:57:58 pm
The way they've been going, I wonder if we'd find one of any use? Really, if they're just going to keep muddying the waters, there's no purpose being served.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 16, 2017, 05:59:19 pm
The way they've been going, I wonder if we'd find one of any use? Really, if they're just going to keep muddying the waters, there's no purpose being served.
Unless muddying the waters is the purpose, possibly to keep the liability profile low.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Cyber Liberty on October 16, 2017, 07:07:48 pm
The way they've been going, I wonder if we'd find one of any use? Really, if they're just going to keep muddying the waters, there's no purpose being served.
There's a huge purpose being served.
It's part of the investigation... information is always withheld, and false information is disseminated.
If there's a suspect at large, you can get them to let down their guard.
People will construct stories around what they think you know. Then you catch them when their story doesn't match reality.
You can confirm real witnesses when they give information that was withheld from the public.
Etc.
These are very basic police investigative techniques.
I suspect they're trying to confirm there was no other suspect(s) involved.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DB on October 17, 2017, 01:56:42 am
I was thinking how odd the crime scene photos were so quickly leaked, and no leaks since. The WH could use the services of the leak stopper.
It seems like the White House leaks have quieted down since Bannon was shown the door. Is that a coincidence?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 17, 2017, 02:21:49 am
Preibus, too. Hard to say who was leakier.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2017, 02:28:44 am
Quote
Las Vegas guard Jesus Campos vanished after visiting urgent-care clinic, union leader says Fox News
The Mandalay Bay security guard who disappeared last week moments before he was scheduled to break his silence in television interviews has not been seen since he went to a walk-in health clinic, his union president said.
David Hickey of the Security, Police, and Fire Professionals of America (SPFPA) told reporters Friday that he got a text the night before saying Jesus Campos was taken to a UMC Quick Care facility, though he did not specify where or whom the text came from.
Continued at: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/16/las-vegas-guard-jesus-campos-vanished-after-visiting-urgent-care-clinic-union-leader-says.html
I would think he's hiding out; for his own safety or to not address this issue.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: TomSea on October 17, 2017, 02:29:58 am
He's probably hiding out somewhere, sort of like George Zimmerman did, I believe. Just getting away from it all, possibly in a place where he is well-protected. That's what I think.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 17, 2017, 02:46:56 am
He's probably hiding out somewhere, sort of like George Zimmerman did, I believe. Just getting away from it all, possibly in a place where he is well-protected. That's what I think.
Maybe he's visiting Alex Jones. (Just kidding).
Seriously, I hope he's ok.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 17, 2017, 03:29:47 pm
The guard, Jesus Campos, is either kept under wraps by the casino or the feds. Funny that they let the maintenance man give a televised interview. I have not lost interest in this case even though the media has.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: INVAR on October 17, 2017, 03:36:20 pm
The guard, Jesus Campos, is either kept under wraps by the casino or the feds. Funny that they let the maintenance man give a televised interview. I have not lost interest in this case even though the media has.
My guess is that the guy is an illegal alien and he was told to shut up and go away by the Mob because the Casinos do not need media attention brought to bear on whom they have as staff.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 17, 2017, 06:35:25 pm
At the least this event sets the tone that your average white retiree with a lot of guns and no reason to do so CAN and WILL go on a rampage at any time.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 17, 2017, 06:43:49 pm
At the least this event sets the tone that your average white retiree with a lot of guns and no reason to do so CAN and WILL go on a rampage at any time.
True - as long as no reason is known.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 17, 2017, 06:49:39 pm
It is too late for a motive to come flying sideways out of the weeds.
I disagree. Sometimes it takes a while to ferret that sort of thing out. Of course, no matter what comes out there will be many agreements and denunciations when it does.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 17, 2017, 07:42:10 pm
It is too late for a motive to come flying sideways out of the weeds.
Coincidentally, having tuned into Netflix' new series MINDHUNTER, not 14 minutes in, a conversation is overheard by the lead male agent about strangers killing strangers with nothing but a big hole for any source of motive.
Conspiracy sites like ATS (Above Top Secret) have threads suggesting it may have been an alphabet agency's black op.
And not showing that missing guard for possible immigration violations is a poor excuse. Just state all said related questions will be ignored and the media responsible, removed.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: mrclose on October 17, 2017, 09:49:40 pm
Immigrant Cop and Mandalay Security Officer Connected?
An Immigrant cop and the Mandalay security guard? Same SS #?
I disagree. Sometimes it takes a while to ferret that sort of thing out. Of course, no matter what comes out there will be many agreements and denunciations when it does.
Well, I think it fits a certain agenda to let the motive go unsolved for a while.
Anyone got any investment tips on security device(s) companies?
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 18, 2017, 01:07:18 am
In return for reporting this detail, the LV Sherrif BLOCKED Laura Loomer on twitter.
Last time she was in the LVMPD press conference, it was HER QUESTION which established the shooter had in fact checked in THREE DAYS EARLIER:
For that she was barred from the next press conference —prevented from physically entering the room.
Interesting.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Frank Cannon on October 18, 2017, 03:23:58 am
Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Geez. There is another shooter? This hotel better get their shit together.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 18, 2017, 09:21:10 am
Security Guard Who Was Shot In Las Vegas Shooting Reappears On Ellen After Reports He Had Vanished
The Las Vegas security guard who was wounded while trying to stop shooter Stephen Paddock at the Mandalay Bay Hotel has broken his silence on The Ellen DeGeneres Show — after many had expressed concern over his whereabouts.
Ellen DeGeneres tweeted Tuesday a photo of Jesus Campos saying he had sat down with her for a pre-taped episode that will air Wednesday.
Coincidentally, having tuned into Netflix' new series MINDHUNTER, not 14 minutes in, a conversation is overheard by the lead male agent about strangers killing strangers with nothing but a big hole for any source of motive.
Conspiracy sites like ATS (Above Top Secret) have threads suggesting it may have been an alphabet agency's black op.
And not showing that missing guard for possible immigration violations is a poor excuse. Just state all said related questions will be ignored and the media responsible, removed.
Wow. I was just told by my best friend to watch that series on Netflix. Do you recommend? @DCPatriot ? I saw the preview. Looked interesting - I'm a sucker for books by Ann Rule.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Gefn on October 18, 2017, 11:58:40 am
Wow. I was just told by my best friend to watch that series on Netflix. Do you recommend? @DCPatriot ? I saw the preview. Looked interesting - I'm a sucker for books by Ann Rule.
Am in the middle of Episode 2.... and IMO, so far, it's a disappointment.
I thought the first episode was terrible, but I've learned to give a series a few episodes. I'm at the halfway point, now. IMO, it does get better. Once the main three characters begin to develop the techniques, it becomes more interesting. The actor playing Edmund Kemper does a fantastic job with the mannerisms and speech patterns of the real man. Much of the dialogue is taken from the actual interviews Kemper has given.
I'd have to say, unless you're a fan of true crime and shows like Forensic Files, the content and subject matter probably won't interest you.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Sanguine on October 18, 2017, 02:22:01 pm
Yes, because she has a vested interest. See my post above. Her MGM relationship makes this interview 'get' highly suspicious.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TMIepNv28C0
In the video above, she visits people playing her machines at MGM Grand.
From the excerpts I read, his story is incomprehensible and vague. He said "as I was going down I heard rapid fire." Going where? Going down the hall, the stairs, to the floor after he was shot? I'm sure the hostess will not be asking for clarification since she is an MGM shill. I'll have to watch the whole thing later. Why would he take the stairs to check out a door alarm on the 32nd floor instead of the elevator? Nothing about this story is straightforward.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 18, 2017, 02:49:41 pm
Why would he take the stairs to check out a door alarm on the 32nd floor instead of the elevator? Nothing about this story is straightforward.
I can give him the benefit of the doubt on that. If the reported door was for the stairwell and he was already making rounds on upper floors, it would make sense to take that route. Problem is, there have been so many changes to stories and timelines, who can say what's reliable? His decision to hide out until now, then make an appearance on a show with a host that's far from objective, doesn't help at all.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 18, 2017, 04:40:04 pm
As long as the narrative is as being a lone gunman with no motive stands that seed is planted and you all become less credible amongst yourselves. Remember the Twilight zone episode "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street"? Don't become the monsters on Maple Street.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 18, 2017, 05:00:57 pm
As long as the narrative is as being a lone gunman with no motive stands that seed is planted and you all become less credible amongst yourselves. Remember the Twilight zone episode "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street"? Don't become the monsters on Maple Street.
It is perfectly normal for people to try to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. There is little doubt that information has not been released, that it keeps being modified (corrected?) or that there are very influential people who want to avoid a liability exposure in this who might try to influence the available information, or even go beyond that to try to influence the reporting of events, timing, etc., in order to cover their collective asses. Lawsuits have been and will be filed.
Whatever it was, no matter how incomprehensible, the gunman had some motive. That may remain known only to himself if he acted completely alone, or may be buried in an avalanche of ass covering and political correctness. It may have been purely delusional, or it may have been something more concrete. We don't have enough facts to know yet.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 18, 2017, 06:28:33 pm
It is perfectly normal for people to try to make sense of something that doesn't make sense. There is little doubt that information has not been released, that it keeps being modified (corrected?) or that there are very influential people who want to avoid a liability exposure in this who might try to influence the available information, or even go beyond that to try to influence the reporting of events, timing, etc., in order to cover their collective asses. Lawsuits have been and will be filed.
Whatever it was, no matter how incomprehensible, the gunman had some motive. That may remain known only to himself if he acted completely alone, or may be buried in an avalanche of ass covering and political correctness. It may have been purely delusional, or it may have been something more concrete. We don't have enough facts to know yet.
That article hits precisely where the apparent lack of motive will predictably hit. Not being able to rationalize even the most irrational motive, in a vacuum, people will turn on the device used rather than the motivating sickness of the one who used it. Predictably, this will be a push to feel safe in an uncertain world, which is part and parcel of the whole illicit rationale used to push gun control.
Actually discerning and providing a motive, be that Islamism or other terrorist motivation, organic or illness-induced mental problems, psychological problems, medication side effects, being p.o.-ed at country music fans, sleep deprivation, clinical depression, whatever the thing that led to this, it would give people a way to understand, to feel they could somehow avoid or protect against being caught up in another incident, or reason to believe such could be prevented.
Without that reassurance that this was an act which, no matter how difficult, can be understood in the sense that there was some cause, the vitriol, the onus will fall on the tools he used rather than the cause, the individual. Even the NRA is falling into the trap of blaming the device and not the user when it calls for the reevaluation of slide (bump) fire stocks.
It is the emotional trap that people fall into when logic fails, and logic isn't being given much to chew on.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 18, 2017, 08:23:42 pm
Good find. Maybe it is so bloody obvious that they don't think people will connect those dots
All of this was easily found doing a simple search of 'Ellen DeGeneres MGM.'
Looks like they did a trial run in the MGM Grand Detroit in 2014 according to this press release.
DETROIT, November 19, 2014 – MGM Grand Detroit announced today it has installed four The Ellen DeGeneres Show Video Slots on its casino floor. MGM Grand Detroit is the first casino in the market to install the game for guest play.
Ellen Video Slots is made up of two different games: Ellen’s Dance Party Video Slots and The Ellen DeGeneres Show Featuring 12 Days of Giveaways Video Slot. Each features images, clips and music from the popular daytime TV talk show and offer special bonuses based some of the Emmy® Award-winning program’s most well known segments. All four games are penny denomination.
They must have performed well, because by Feb 2015 (date of video posted below), she announced on her show they were available at MGM casinos nationwide.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WfqI-HO6Qzk
I don't know how these contracts work and what her cut for license fees and gameplay income would be, but she obviously has had an interest in promoting the MGM casinos. There's also the statement released by MGM about the interview.
“Jesus Campos wants to tell his story at a time and place of his choosing,” MGM Resorts International, which owns and operates Mandalay Bay, said in an email to the Las Vegas Review-Journal early Tuesday. “He’s asked that everyone respect his request for privacy. We could not be more proud of Jesus.”
Somehow, I seriously doubt it suddenly occurred to him, 'Hey, I'd really like to tell my story on Ellen.'
This whole thing screams damage control and collusion. Someone needs to start asking Ellen and MGM serious questions about being a corporate shill - providing cover, protecting interests, and the bottom line in the wake of a national tragedy.
Disgraceful.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 18, 2017, 11:26:20 pm
This article starts out with the unassailable psychological truth that we need to know the motive, then descends into an argument that guns are to blame. The usual liberal crock.
"Finally, Spiegel warns, when people reflexively accept a “mental illness” explanation for mass shootings, they are playing into the hands of the gun rights advocates who would foil any effort to stem the tide of weapons in America.
“We all want to feel in control of things we can’t control,” said Spiegel, who directs Stanford’s Center on Stress and Health. “We want to play this narrative in our heads that we can avoid these people. But what’s really chilling is that no matter where you go or what you do, there’s a coldblooded guy with a gun who could take you out.”
Under the circumstances, he said, “we ought to be anxious.”
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 18, 2017, 11:29:25 pm
This whole thing screams damage control and collusion. Someone needs to start asking Ellen and MGM serious questions about being a corporate shill - providing cover, protecting interests, and the bottom line in the wake of a national tragedy.
Disgraceful.
Most people will not realize why Ellen was the one to get the interview- it wasn't just for the prizes. She also had a handy-dandy floor plan and pointer to clarify Jesus' tale and was kind enough to restate his story for him. Yes, disgraceful.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: bigheadfred on October 19, 2017, 01:21:35 am
The lack of a motive and the division, distrust, and fear it causes is exactly my point. The best wedge. I am looking at the long run. The End Game.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 19, 2017, 01:44:32 am
The lack of a motive and the division, distrust, and fear it causes is exactly my point. The best wedge. I am looking at the long run. The End Game.
The end game is more gun control. Anything, but they want to ban SOMEthing.
Unfortunately, in its rush to throw a bone to the antis, the NRA has screwed up and blamed a THING instead of leaving the blame with the criminal, a point they had campaigned on for years. OOPS. (And being a lifelong NRA member, a stupid move that needs clarification, and if they blame the device, one that pisses me off.)
Once an inert piece of plastic becomes inherently evil in the minds of people, how much more so will they present the device that actually fires bullets? Stupid, stupid, stupid. If that wasn't the impression the NRA intended to give, it would be really nice to see a strong clarifying statement to that effect.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: edpc on October 20, 2017, 12:54:19 am
EXCLUSIVE: Mandalay Bay owner insisted security guard Jesus Campos appear ONLY on Ellen and not be grilled by TV hardhitters fearing his answers to timeline questions could result in massive lawsuits from victims of the massacre
Mandalay Bay shooting hero Jesus Campos was pressured into giving his only interview to Ellen DeGeneres because the giant company that owns the Las Vegas casino feared he would spill the beans about the shooting timeline if he was grilled by real journalists, DailyMail.com has learned exclusively.
MGM is worried that families of the 58 people murdered as well as many of the 546 injured in the Mandalay Bay massacre will launch lawsuits potentially worth billions of dollars against the company, sources tell DailyMail.com.
EXCLUSIVE: Mandalay Bay owner insisted security guard Jesus Campos appear ONLY on Ellen and not be grilled by TV hardhitters fearing his answers to timeline questions could result in massive lawsuits from victims of the massacre
Mandalay Bay shooting hero Jesus Campos was pressured into giving his only interview to Ellen DeGeneres because the giant company that owns the Las Vegas casino feared he would spill the beans about the shooting timeline if he was grilled by real journalists, DailyMail.com has learned exclusively.
MGM is worried that families of the 58 people murdered as well as many of the 546 injured in the Mandalay Bay massacre will launch lawsuits potentially worth billions of dollars against the company, sources tell DailyMail.com.
Brit papers doing the job American ones won't. Now, they need to expose the cozy MGM relationship with Ellen.
Well, we had that figured out. It is nice to see that much confirmed. Unfortunately the liability CYA will likely interfere with the investigation. "Housekeeping, you have a cleanup on 32..."
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 20, 2017, 03:04:49 pm
Well, we had that figured out. It is nice to see that much confirmed. Unfortunately the liability CYA will likely interfere with the investigation. "Housekeeping, you have a cleanup on 32..."
There is a lawsuit against MGM and restraining order so that they do not destroy evidence.
Rumors abound about him (security guard) being an Illegal.
Imagine the lawsuits!
Why? Even if illegal, the man appears to have acted and behaved as someone who is honorable and with values and morals. I don't see how his immigration status would have any bearing on that POS gunning down hundreds of people.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 21, 2017, 06:32:42 am
I sincerely hope the CSI unit there (or whatever they call it) thoroughly documented the scenes, catalogued the physical evidence, and the M.E. was completely thorough with the toxicology screens.
I'd bet there is either a lot more to all this than we are being told.
From the MGM Resorts website https://www.mgmresorts.com/en.html (https://www.mgmresorts.com/en.html):
Quote
MGM Resorts International
The MGM Resorts Foundation has set up a special fund to help support victims of the Las Vegas shooting, their families and the organizations that support our first responders. Click here to donate
Why? Even if illegal, the man appears to have acted and behaved as someone who is honorable and with values and morals. I don't see how his immigration status would have any bearing on that POS gunning down hundreds of people.
Agreed. Let this stand on the merits of his actions, not immigration status. But find out what those actions were, and the time frame, too.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Applewood on October 21, 2017, 12:53:20 pm
Not sure I trust the MGM charity for the survivors and first responders. I think if a survivor is in need, I would rather give to that person directly. Some already have GoFundMe page, but I don't trust them either. A few of those sites have been busted for fraud.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: DCPatriot on October 21, 2017, 01:27:18 pm
Not sure I trust the MGM charity for the survivors and first responders. I think if a survivor is in need, I would rather give to that person directly. Some already have GoFundMe page, but I don't trust them either. A few of those sites have been busted for fraud.
These days, nothing short of driving there yourself, and AFTER getting identification, present them your contribution.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: austingirl on October 21, 2017, 04:19:30 pm
No media curiosity about the "worst mass shooting" in US history. Nothing released to the public in eight days. Why did LVMPD say the day after the shooting "we may never know the motive?" He had numerous phones, laptops, and cameras in the room, computers found in both homes and there is no digital footprint? I am astounded the story is over.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: INVAR on October 21, 2017, 04:23:24 pm
I am also certain we will never know the truth of it.
What I do know is that this stinks to high heaven, and smacks of something incredibly nefarious.
The Propaganda arm of the Dems, aka the Press, already got what they want from this story: Acquiescence of the NRA to ram through yet another restriction on guns, and the stopping of the Hearing Protection Act. They have nothing to gain, only to lose, if the details ever leak out.
Title: Re: Las Vegas: Active shooter reported near Mandalay Bay
Post by: Smokin Joe on October 21, 2017, 06:02:25 pm
The Propaganda arm of the Dems, aka the Press, already got what they want from this story: Acquiescence of the NRA to ram through yet another restriction on guns, and the stopping of the Hearing Protection Act. They have nothing to gain, only to lose, if the details ever leak out.
I am reminded of another incident. When the Assault Weapons Ban was facing repeal, the Waco (Mt. Carmel) massacre hearings were slated for Congress, a fellow whose pal had a GF from the Philippines blew up a rental truck. All progress on repeal stopped right there. The hearing was just another arm waving session, but no one was so much as reduced in grade over killing 87 men, women, and children by burning their building to the ground after driving over their vehicles with tracks, poking holes in the building, and filling the place with cs and carburetor cleaner (Methylene Chloride).
It's like deja vu all over again. No, that isn't tinfoil, it's a helmet, Model M1.