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General Category => Trump Legal Investigations => Topic started by: mystery-ak on June 10, 2013, 02:50:28 pm

Title: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mystery-ak on June 10, 2013, 02:50:28 pm
http://www.wlsam.com/common/page.php?pt=Bolton%3A+NSA+leaker+Edward+Snowden+is+guilty+of+treason&id=45663&is_corp=0 (http://www.wlsam.com/common/page.php?pt=Bolton%3A+NSA+leaker+Edward+Snowden+is+guilty+of+treason&id=45663&is_corp=0)

9:03AM Monday
June 10, 2013

Story by 89 WLS Reporter John Dempsey
(CHICAGO) There is a lot of reaction on WLS this morning to the identification of the man who leaked information last week, about the U.S. Government’s secret surveillance program, which allows the National Security Agency to monitor the phone calls and emails of Americans.

Former U.S. Ambassador John Bolton told Bruce Wolf and Dan Proft on WLS that he thinks admitted leaker Edward Snowden, is guilty of treason:

"Number one, this man is a liar.   He took an oath to keep the secrets that were shared with him so he could do his job.  He said said he would not disclose them, and he lied.   Number two, he lied because he thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us.   This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299-million 999-thousand 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants.  I say that is the worst form of treason".


The 29-year old Snowden spoke with the British newspaper “The Guardian”.   The paper says Snowden is a former CIA covert employee and has been an NSA contract employee for four years, working for the consulting giant Booz-Allen. 

Meanwhile Peoria Republican Congressman Aaron Schock is stopping short of saying Snowden should be charged with treason.   Schock told Bruce and Dan he does think the revelation of the surveillance program proves there needs to be changes to the patriot act, which was instituted under former President George W. Bush as part of the fight against terrorism:

"I think it does and I think what was so chilling was the President's nonchalant response to the wiretapping and the phone records compiling and analysis that's being done on every American".

Schock says there needs to be a mechanism in place for people such as Snowden to report to Congress without fear of reprisal, when they have information they feel is an example of the government going too far.   

listen here
http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=1201&c=5751&f=1506931 (http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=1201&c=5751&f=1506931)
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 03:02:12 pm
Of course he's a traitor.  At any time he could have gone to the IG of the Intelligence Committee or even to Mike Rogers himself if he had concerns.

I know, I know.  He wouldn't have gotten all the admiration from the conspiracy nuts, but he would not have violated the oath he took.

Otherwise, all these security analysts become laws unto themselves and they can take it upon themselves to release data whenever and to whomever they want.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: evadR on June 10, 2013, 03:27:54 pm
I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between what this guy did and Manning...aside from not being in the military.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 03:38:11 pm
There's no difference. 
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on June 10, 2013, 04:05:24 pm
Wow...Bolton needs to calm down.   Because if Bolton really believes the crap that's coming out of his mouth ... then he's saying NO ONE knows better than the government and NO ONE has the right--under any circumstance--to be a whistleblower.

IMHO, it's logic like Bolton's that makes me fear for our country.

Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on June 10, 2013, 04:08:28 pm
Of course he's a traitor. 

That you Bolton???  (just kidding)

But, seriously ...  would you prefer it if no one shines a light on the rampant, criminal, anti-Constitutional activities of this regime?

Why not refer to him as whistleblower? 
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: GourmetDan on June 10, 2013, 04:17:16 pm
Wow...Bolton needs to calm down.   Because if Bolton really believes the crap that's coming out of his mouth ... then he's saying NO ONE knows better than the government and NO ONE has the right--under any circumstance--to be a whistleblower.

IMHO, it's logic like Bolton's that makes me fear for our country.

                                        :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: GourmetDan on June 10, 2013, 04:18:05 pm
Why not refer to him as whistleblower?

Just our gov't making sure that future whistleblowers know what their ultimate end will be...


Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on June 10, 2013, 04:20:20 pm
Just our gov't making sure that future whistleblowers know what their ultimate end will be...

How very Stalin and Saddam of them. 
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: GourmetDan on June 10, 2013, 04:29:25 pm
How very Stalin and Saddam of them.

That's just the nature of gov't.  If not strictly controlled, it will take over everything.  The founders understood that and framed the Constitution with that in mind.

These days (given gov'ts constant repetition of the theme), people think of gov't as 'sugar daddy' giving them everything they want.

This is why our gov't is constantly at war against the Constitution and has been for 200+ years.




Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 04:37:50 pm
Quote
"Number one, this man is a liar.   He took an oath to keep the secrets that were shared with him so he could do his job.  He said said he would not disclose them, and he lied.   Number two, he lied because he thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us.   This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299-million 999-thousand 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants.  I say that is the worst form of treason".

This is one of the worst forms of non-logic:  because he was a liar - post hoc - regarding the oaths he took, he must therefore be lying about everything now.  Prior bad acts are not generally allowed into criminal trials because they are generally unreliable indicators for whether the accused committed the crime charged; the same holds for his sort of specious argument.

Is this man a traitor?  Of course.  Then again, each and every one of the Founders was also a traitor and under then-prevailing English law should have been strung up by the neck until dead; particularly those who had served in the British military and had taken oaths to uphold the Crown - oaths which they then - post hoc - violated, making them, as per Mr. Bolton, liars as well as treasonous scoundrels.

Remember Franklin's ominous saying at the signing of the Declaration of Independence:  "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Sometimes you just have to say thank God for treason.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 04:55:30 pm
That you Bolton???  (just kidding)

But, seriously ...  would you prefer it if no one shines a light on the rampant, criminal, anti-Constitutional activities of this regime?

Why not refer to him as whistleblower?

Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.

He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:01:03 pm
Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.

He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison.

That all depends, and the only sure frame of reference for making overarching judgments is that of the comparatively objective future historian.  That he is guilty of treason and therefore subject to imprisonment under current law is a given - no one can seriously doubt that - but that fact is neither necessary nor sufficient to making a final judgment on his actions.  To use the language of just deserts is to make a judgment that cannot be made at this point in time.

To reiterate:  the Founders were also traitors and, under then-existing law, were liable to be strung up by the neck until dead.  Would you also say that they "deserved" to be strung up?  Would that have been the morally preferable result?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 05:03:10 pm
This is one of the worst forms of non-logic:  because he was a liar - post hoc - regarding the oaths he took, he must therefore be lying about everything now.  Prior bad acts are not generally allowed into criminal trials because they are generally unreliable indicators for whether the accused committed the crime charged; the same holds for his sort of specious argument.

Is this man a traitor?  Of course.  Then again, each and every one of the Founders was also a traitor and under then-prevailing English law should have been strung up by the neck until dead; particularly those who had served in the British military and had taken oaths to uphold the Crown - oaths which they then - post hoc - violated, making them, as per Mr. Bolton, liars as well as treasonous scoundrels.

Remember Franklin's ominous saying at the signing of the Declaration of Independence:  "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

Sometimes you just have to say thank God for treason.

By all means.  Let every NSA analyst release whatever data he/she chooses to release.  You fine with that?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 05:04:44 pm
That all depends, and the only sure frame of reference for making overarching judgments is that of the comparatively objective future historian.  That he is guilty of treason and therefore subject to imprisonment under current law is a given - no one can seriously doubt that - but that fact is neither necessary nor sufficient to making a final judgment on his actions.  To use the language of just deserts is to make a judgment that cannot be made at this point in time.

To reiterate:  the Founders were also traitors and, under then-existing law, were liable to be strung up by the neck until dead.  Would you also say that they "deserved" to be strung up?  Would that have been the morally preferable result?

Comparing this pasty-faced jerk to the Founding Fathers is a moral equivalency you cannot make with a straight face.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:05:22 pm
By all means.  Let every NSA analyst release whatever data he/she chooses to release.  You fine with that?

Now you're simply trying to dodge the argument altogether.  Riddle me this:  if I call someone a liar because - as I allege - his actions today have suddenly converted things he said years ago into lies, does that have any bearing on whether something that person says today is also a lie?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mountaineer on June 10, 2013, 05:06:15 pm
He compromised security when he reported that our government is spying on its own citizens - including every last one of us - for no reason that had anything to do with combating terrorism. Got it.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:08:36 pm
He compromised security when he reported that our government is spying on its own citizens - including every last one of us - for no reason that had anything to do with combating terrorism. Got it.

He did compromise security - let's be honest about it - the only question is whether that compromise was, on balance, a good thing to do.  Only time will tell, although my personal view is that, on balance, the damage was justified because the spying was, and is, not.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mountaineer on June 10, 2013, 05:11:03 pm
There are situations in which we should not want anyone to reveal certain secrets. The question is whether this is one of them.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:14:15 pm
There are situations in which we should not want anyone to reveal certain secrets. The question is whether this is one of them.

Agreed.  And there are other situations in which we would want someone to reveal certain secrets.  The question is also whether this is one of them.

There is also another unasked question floating around:  does it really matter?  Does anyone seriously believe that America's enemies were blythely unaware that the US government might be trying to obtain their communications, from whatever sources there are, and by whatever means possible?  Other than some dunces and wannabes who have just cancelled their Verizon services, does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were blatantly and obviously communicating with each other over Verizon's assets?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: sinkspur on June 10, 2013, 05:22:36 pm
Now you're simply trying to dodge the argument altogether.  Riddle me this:  if I call someone a liar because - as I allege - his actions today have suddenly converted things he said years ago into lies, does that have any bearing on whether something that person says today is also a lie?

Let every man be a law unto himself.  Oaths mean nothing if I believe I am honoring a higher cause.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Right_in_Virginia on June 10, 2013, 05:22:47 pm
Oh.  So, in your America, nothing is classified.  If anything is classified, it's OK for anybody with access to the information to release it any time they choose.  He's not a whistleblower.  He's compromised security.  He deserves years and years in a federal prison. 

No one is saying nothing is classified, least of all me.  But I think the collection of data from every American ... via phone, internet, social networks without permission or reason begs for a whistleblower. 

Thank heavens you weren't around during the American Revolution.  I'm sure your didactic, rigid judgment of "years and years in prison for compromised security" would have made King George III blush with pride.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:24:32 pm
Let every man be a law unto himself.  Oaths mean nothing if I believe I am honoring a higher cause.

You're still dodging the question.  Stop being a hypocrite and answer the question, which I will state even more simply:  if I do something today that is inconsistent with an oath I took ten years ago, does that mean that my oath, when originally taken, was a lie?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mountaineer on June 10, 2013, 05:26:32 pm
Other than some dunces and wannabes who have just cancelled their Verizon services, does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were blatantly and obviously communicating with each other over Verizon's assets?
Apparently, it's not just Verizon. It's all telephone services.   :thud:
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:35:44 pm
Apparently, it's not just Verizon. It's all telephone services.   :thud:

The point still stands:  does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were communicating in the open via telephone or internet?  And as far as identifying patterns via the so-called "metadata" of endpoint detection - i.e., the start and end points of a particular communication - that can be fairly well concealed by those who really care by using the TOR network. 

the website for the TOR project is here:  https://www.torproject.org/  I would recommend that people go read up about it a bit and then decide whether gathering everyone's phone records and emails, even if only to connect endpoints together, would really help identify hardcore terrorists.  Keep in mind, as someone from the TOR project once told me:  US forces, including undercover agents, use the TOR network to communicate sensitive intelligence back to home base, which suggests that the TOR network is a fairly robust system that generally cannot be penetrated to identify the end points of any particular communication.

Real terrorists, the ones whom the government should be trying to identify, use something like the TOR network if they communicate online; they do not use gmail.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mountaineer on June 10, 2013, 05:39:27 pm
Quote
does anyone really think that hardcore terrorists were communicating in the open via telephone or internet? 
The Boston bombers - terrorists - got their bomb-making instructions via the internet, didn't they? I'm not sure what a hardcore terrorist is. Seems to me that anyone who harbors thoughts of committing an act - any act - of terrorisms is hardcore enough. Even  schmucks like the Tsarnaev brothers can cause plenty of mayhem.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: GourmetDan on June 10, 2013, 05:40:52 pm
Apparently, it's not just Verizon. It's all telephone services.

How do you think the FBI was able to listen to telephone conversations that Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his wife had *before* the bombing occurred?

Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Oceander on June 10, 2013, 05:44:25 pm
The Boston bombers - terrorists - got their bomb-making instructions via the internet, didn't they? I'm not sure what a hardcore terrorist is. Seems to me that anyone who harbors thoughts of committing an act - any act - of terrorisms is hardcore enough. Even  schmucks like the Tsarnaev brothers can cause plenty of mayhem.

Fair enough.  But, as GourmetDan points out - having that information didn't do us a lick of good, did it?
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: GourmetDan on June 10, 2013, 05:46:51 pm
Fair enough.  But, as GourmetDan points out - having that information didn't do us a lick of good, did it?

The point I was making was that the phone calls were recorded before the event when there was no reason to record them.

This means that all phone calls are recorded as they are made.


Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: mountaineer on June 10, 2013, 05:48:04 pm
Try to make sense of this:
Quote
Intelligence chief Clapper: I gave ‘least untruthful’ answer on U.S. spying


Director of National Intelligence James Clapper is really struggling to explain why he told Congress in March (see video above) that the National Security Agency does not intentionally collect any kind of data on millions of Americans. His latest take: It's an unfair question, he said, like "When are you going to stop beating your wife?" And it seems to depend on the meaning of "collect."

"I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, or least untruthful, manner by saying 'no,'" Clapper told NBC News on Sunday.

A newly revealed NSA program, however, in which the agency secretly vacuumed up the telephone records of millions of Verizon customers seems to fit the definition of both "data" and "millions of Americans."

Last week, Clapper said his "no" meant that NSA analysts don't read Americans' emails. Some have noted that could explain his earlier answer because "collect" has a precise meaning in intelligence-gathering circles, and it's along those lines.

On Sunday, Clapper elaborated: "This has to do with of course somewhat of a semantic, perhaps some would say too cute by half. But it is—there are honest differences on the semantics of what—when someone says 'collection' to me, that has a specific meaning, which may have a different meaning to him."

Below is the exchange in the March hearing of the relevant Senate Intelligence Committee. Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore.—who has long warned about excessive government surveillance of Americans, though in veiled terms because the information is classified—had just one question for Clapper.
Quote
Wyden: "And this is for you, Director Clapper, again on the surveillance front. And I hope we can do this in just a yes or no answer, because I know Sen. Feinstein wants to move on.

"Last summer the NSA director was at a conference and he was asked a question about the NSA surveillance of Americans. He replied, and I quote here, '... the story that we have millions or hundreds of millions of dossiers on people is completely false.'

"The reason I'm asking the question is, having served on the committee now for a dozen years, I don't really know what a dossier is in this context. So what I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?"

Clapper: "No, sir."

Wyden: "It does not."

Clapper: "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently perhaps collect, but not wittingly."

Wyden: "All right. Thank you. I'll have additional questions to give you in writing on that point, but I thank you for the answer."

On Sunday, NBC News' Andrea Mitchell pressed him on the NSA collection and on the exchange with Wyden.

Clapper suggested that the senator's question was unfair.

"As I said, I have great respect for Sen. Wyden. I thought, though in retrospect, I was asked [a] 'When are you going to stop beating your wife' kind of question, which is ... not answerable necessarily by a simple yes or no," Clapper said.

"So I responded in what I thought was the most truthful, or least untruthful, manner by saying 'no,'" Clapper said, indicating that he did not consider it "collection" unless government officials actually reviewed the content of the communications. The NSA program, regarding phone records, scoops up "metadata"—phone numbers called, duration of calls, location and the like.
Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/intel-chief-clapper-gave-least-untruthful-answer-u-164742798.html#)
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: evadR on June 10, 2013, 08:28:40 pm
" Oaths mean nothing if I believe I am honoring a higher cause."

I believe that's straight out of The Punisher...Thomas Jane Version.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: evadR on June 10, 2013, 08:30:19 pm
Fair enough.  But, as GourmetDan points out - having that information didn't do us a lick of good, did it?
Only because those charged with protecting us chose to ignore it.
That's a whole different issue.
Title: Re: Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason
Post by: Rapunzel on June 10, 2013, 09:23:08 pm
Pretty clear cut to me.  The government is spying on all of us without cause.  Rand Paul is right, it they suspect we did something then get a warrant, no warrant no spying. Period.  Another thing he said is they collect so much data they cannot see the forest for the trees, thus the real criminals - like Tsaraneav slips though the cracks...  they were warned about them and that would have been appropriate for a warrant and more - yet they didn't even know they left the country.

Bottom line, government is out of control and we are all their all too willing dupes.