The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: EdinVA on July 24, 2020, 05:10:33 pm
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Stephen Moore (https://www.foxbusiness.com/person/m/stephen-moore), a member of President Trump’s economic recovery task force and an economist at FreedomWorks, has a bold idea for how to reinvigorate the economy: abolish the federal income tax, and replace it with a national sales tax.
On the face of it, it may seem like a radical notion especially since essentially all Americans nowadays have grown up having a chunk of their income pulled out by the IRS every year. But Moore notes that the income tax is a relatively new invention in the U.S. -- having only been introduced in the early 20th century.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/stephen-moores-big-idea-replace-the-income-tax-with-national-sales-tax (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/stephen-moores-big-idea-replace-the-income-tax-with-national-sales-tax)
This has been floated around before but worth considering..
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pinging @Bigun
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This has been floated around before but worth considering..
A few dozen times that I can recall. There have also been numerous other proposals -- fair tax, flat tax, Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan, Ted Cruz's tax return on a postcard and so on. But the bottom line is neither party wants to tamper with the IRS, let alone abolish it altogether.
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Never. Gonna. Happen.
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Never. Gonna. Happen.
Not for so long as the Swamp critters can avoid it! The current Marxist income tax affords them far too many opportunities for social engineering projects to be easily given up.
Something like the Fairtax (http://fairtax.org) would be rocket fuel for the US Economy but that doesn't matter because they would lose their ability to manipulate folks if the did that.
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Nope.
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A few dozen times that I can recall. There have also been numerous other proposals -- fair tax, flat tax, Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan, Ted Cruz's tax return on a postcard and so on. But the bottom line is neither party wants to tamper with the IRS, let alone abolish it altogether.
The day you "abolish the IRS" is the day you eliminate taxation altogether—which of course will never happen. As long as there are taxes, there will be an IRS to collect them in some form.
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The day you "abolish the IRS" is the day you eliminate taxation altogether—which of course will never happen. As long as there are taxes, there will be an IRS to collect them in some form.
Correct. And, within 50 years of cancelling the income tax, there will be both a national sales tax, and an income tax. Both.
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The day you "abolish the IRS" is the day you eliminate taxation altogether—which of course will never happen. As long as there are taxes, there will be an IRS to collect them in some form.
Absolute Bovine Fecal Matter! You do not know what you are talking about!
Under the Fairtax system taxes would be collected by the states and remitted directly to the US Treasury minus a set amount retained by the states for their trouble.
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Correct. And, within 50 years of cancelling the income tax, there will be both a national sales tax, and an income tax. Both.
You do not need to wait for that as it is in place today. The so called corporate income tax, along with ALL the costs of complying with it are rolled up into the prices of everything produced in this country today and YOU pay them all when you buy any of those goods are services.
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You do not need to wait for that as it is in place today. The so called corporate income tax, along with ALL the costs of complying with it are rolled up into the prices of everything produced in this country today and YOU pay them all when you buy any of those goods are services.
Correct. It's already baked in the cake.
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Correct. It's already baked in the cake.
For so long as we continue to abide the Marxist income tax it is but the Fairax ends all of that.
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Absolute Bovine Fecal Matter! You do not know what you are talking about!
Under the Fairtax system taxes would be collected by the states and remitted directly to the US Treasury minus a set amount retained by the states for their trouble.
And what department of the US Treasury will collect those taxes, again?
You guessed it—the IRS.
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Oh, and one more thing: do you really think it's such a great idea to have 50 little state IRSes decide they're going to play games with federal revenues? Imagine Andrew Cuomo deciding "well, we send too much money to the federal government anyway, so we're not going to send it until they do things our way."
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And what department of the US Treasury will collect those taxes, again?
You guessed it—the IRS.
Nope! The Fairtax bill specifically requires the IRS disbanded and all of their records destroyed.
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Oh, and one more thing: do you really think it's such a great idea to have 50 little state IRSes decide they're going to play games with federal revenues? Imagine Andrew Cuomo deciding "well, we send too much money to the federal government anyway, so we're not going to send it until they do things our way."
45 of the 50 states already have sales tax collection mechanisms in place and accommodating a NRST would require them to add a few lines of code to their software for which they would be well compensated. And Yes, I'm perfectly onboard with giving states more control over the feral government.
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Aside the the governments insatiable desire to manipulate the population, think of all the lawyers and bean counters that would be out of business and the hell they would raise..
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Aside the the governments insatiable desire to manipulate the population, think of all the lawyers and bean counters that would be out of business and the hell they would raise..
:yowsa: Ain't it wonderful!
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There are many benefits of such a plan. One being a more even tax program to every financial class.
The downside is those folks in Washington. After you pass a Flat Tax they will certainly wish to retain the IRS
or reestablish it. That would be a double whammy. I know some have addressed this elsewhere but I don't
trust anyone when it comes to Money or Power.
Al
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There are many benefits of such a plan. One being a more even tax program to every financial class.
The downside is those folks in Washington. After you pass a Flat Tax they will certainly wish to retain the IRS
or reestablish it. That would be a double whammy. I know some have addressed this elsewhere but I don't
trust anyone when it comes to Money or Power.
Al
I have directly addressed it and will do so again for your benefit @Slide Rule
What is being proposed here is not ANY form of income tax but rather National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) that taxes New goods and services one time only at the point of retail sale. There would be no need for the goobermint to know even so much as one's name for it to operate and definitely no need for anything like the IRS. In fact, the legislation specifically does away with the IRS and requires the destruction of its records.
F R E E D O M ! ! !
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In post #6 above, I said the present income tax will never be replaced by a sales tax.
But...
As soon as the transitional democrat-communists come to power, expect the passage of a "value-added tax" on most or all commercial transactions.
They'll start out modestly -- say, 15-20% -- but when the "transition period" ends, and the communists come into full-strength, expect that to be increased. I'll reckon 30% will be their starting point.
Along with that, I foresee a ban once again on the private ownership of gold -- it will either be turned in or they'll come a-searchin' for it, with little or no compensation to the [former] owners.
And along with gold, they may ban ownership of silver, as well (though I sense there will remain a healthy black market on the exchange of "small denomination" silver -- old, junk silver coins -- for goods and services, or for the new "blue buck" currency that will replace our current greenbacks).
Finally, there will be some kind of taxation of private investments. Certainly some kind of "wealth tax" upon the value of 401k's, IRA's, etc.
The communists will need to raise money to cover the collapse in normal tax revenues as businesses fail or are taken over.
They'll also need a way to maintain debt obligations.
HOWEVER -- I expect the "full" communists to simply renounce large portions of the debt, by saying that "it no longer exists".
Perhaps that portion of [former] U.S. securities owed to China will be "exchanged" for portions of land or even the establishment of Chinese bases on the American mainland. Don't put this past them.
If you are unwilling to look into the future to see what's coming, you're unable to fight to STOP it from happening.
"After Trump... the deluge."
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Nope! The Fairtax bill specifically requires the IRS disbanded and all of their records destroyed.
And another department will take its place and be functionally identical to the IRS. Because that's how government works.
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In post #6 above, I said the present income tax will never be replaced by a sales tax.
But...
As soon as the transitional democrat-communists come to power, expect the passage of a "value-added tax" on most or all commercial transactions.
They'll start out modestly -- say, 15-20% -- but when the "transition period" ends, and the communists come into full-strength, expect that to be increased. I'll reckon 30% will be their starting point.
Along with that, I foresee a ban once again on the private ownership of gold -- it will either be turned in or they'll come a-searchin' for it, with little or no compensation to the [former] owners.
And along with gold, they may ban ownership of silver, as well (though I sense there will remain a healthy black market on the exchange of "small denomination" silver -- old, junk silver coins -- for goods and services, or for the new "blue buck" currency that will replace our current greenbacks).
Finally, there will be some kind of taxation of private investments. Certainly some kind of "wealth tax" upon the value of 401k's, IRA's, etc.
The communists will need to raise money to cover the collapse in normal tax revenues as businesses fail or are taken over.
They'll also need a way to maintain debt obligations.
HOWEVER -- I expect the "full" communists to simply renounce large portions of the debt, by saying that "it no longer exists".
Perhaps that portion of [former] U.S. securities owed to China will be "exchanged" for portions of land or even the establishment of Chinese bases on the American mainland. Don't put this past them.
If you are unwilling to look into the future to see what's coming, you're unable to fight to STOP it from happening.
"After Trump... the deluge."
@Fisherman that is already in place today! That they call it a corporate income tax does not change the fact that it FUNCTIONS as a subtraction method VAT and consumers pay ALL of it, as well as all the costs of compliance, every time they purchase anything produced in this country. It is a MAJOR reason that US made products have a difficult time competing in the world's markets.
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And another department will take its place and be functionally identical to the IRS. Because that's how government works.
There would be absolutely nothing for them to do @jmyrlefuller
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The fact that Steven Moore, a long time closet supporter of the Fairtax (http://fairtax.org), has come out publically and said this is significant in and of itself. I do not imagine that the president's conversations with the Vice President ( a strong supporter of the Fairtax when he was a member of congress) have neglected this subject.
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Good policy idea, but it requires the repeal of the 16th Amendment. Otherwise, you know that within two Congressional election cycles of the replacement of the federal income tax with a national sales tax (personally I prefer a VAT, but that's another matter) we'll have both and never be able to get rid of either.
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Good policy idea, but it requires the repeal of the 16th Amendment. Otherwise, you know that within two Congressional election cycles of the replacement of the federal income tax with a national sales tax (personally I prefer a VAT, but that's another matter) we'll have both and never be able to get rid of either.
That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation. Mind telling me why you would prefer a VAT over a NRST @The_Reader_David That mystifies me.
BTW: The 16th amendment does not require an income tax.
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Can anyone here imagine what would happen in this country if you could start or expand a business without having to spend so much a one second of time or one penny of money considering the tax implications of doing so? I can!
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BTW: This is by no means Steven Moore's idea. This kind of taxation was universally endorsed by our founders and Bill Archer (R, Texas) reintroduced it to the congress back in the 1970s
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I have directly addressed it and will do so again for your benefit @Slide Rule
What is being proposed here is not ANY form of income tax but rather National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) that taxes New goods and services one time only at the point of retail sale. There would be no need for the goobermint to know even so much as one's name for it to operate and definitely no need for anything like the IRS. In fact, the legislation specifically does away with the IRS and requires the destruction of its records.
F R E E D O M ! ! !
Since when has a lack of need prevented government from doing anything?
I like the idea, but we have too many greedy bas!ards in Washington.
I really dislike being on the opposite side of any of your concepts.
Al
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That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation. Mind telling me why you would prefer a VAT over a NRST @The_Reader_David That mystifies me.
BTW: The 16th amendment does not require an income tax.
VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses. The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST. The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.
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That (repealing of the 16th) is also a feature of the Fairtax legislation.
You can't repeal a Constitutional amendment with legislation—only with another amendment, which means supermajority of Congress, 38 state legislatures... or an Article V convention, which requires 34 state legislatures.
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VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses. The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST. The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.
If you assemble a bicycle/lawn mower, Mount a tire, paint a car you add value..... I think the wording of the regulation needs to be very very clear...
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If you assemble a bicycle/lawn mower, Mount a tire, paint a car you add value..... I think the wording of the regulation needs to be very very clear...
Only when you sell it—though in those cases, depreciation will far outweigh the value you add. Which brings up an interesting point: if you use the VAT, do you get a rebate for selling a used care after it depreciates? After all, it's like adding a negative value.
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Only when you sell it—though in those cases, depreciation will far outweigh the value you add. Which brings up an interesting point: if you use the VAT, do you get a rebate for selling a used care after it depreciates? After all, it's like adding a negative value.
hmmm.. If we "do away with the IRS" then would there be a way to realize a depreciation?
I am all for exploring these concepts and dumping the power of the IRS but we gotta be careful that we have our parachute on before we jump.
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hmmm.. If we "do away with the IRS" then would there be a way to realize a depreciation?
I am all for exploring these concepts and dumping the power of the IRS but we gotta be careful that we have our parachute on before we jump.
It is a mystery to me @EdinVA why folks have so much trouble getting their minds wrapped around the FACT that with a NRST such as the Fairtax ALL of this worrying about how much income one makes and it's sources goes away completely! You would be able to make all the money you want from whatever source you want and NONE of it ever gets taxed until YOU spend it on a new good or service.
Mr. Billionaire, who lives lavishly and has the ability to manage things so as to realize little to no ''Income" with the current system would pay his share under the NRST as well as would Mr. Drugdealer, Ms Streetwaker and her pimp. etc. etc.
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Since when has a lack of need prevented government from doing anything?
I like the idea, but we have too many greedy bas!ards in Washington.
I really dislike being on the opposite side of any of your concepts.
Al
@Slide Rule and those greedy bastards in Washington currently have and shouldn't a VERY large weapon (the IRS) which they use all the time to bludgeon us with! ALL they need to do to destroy anyone of us is make an allegation and even if you eventually win you lose because they have WAY more lawyers and $$$ than you do. They can and do break people and never even say they are sorry when it's all over after you've beaten them in court but find yourself broke and with no hope of recovering a dime of the money you spent fighting them.
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It is a mystery to me @EdinVA why folks have so much trouble getting their minds wrapped around the FACT that with a NRST such as the Fairtax ALL of this worrying about how much income one makes and it's sources goes away completely! You would be able to make all the money you want from whatever source you want and NONE of it ever gets taxed until YOU spend it on a new good or service.
Mr. Billionaire, who lives lavishly and has the ability to manage things so as to realize little to no ''Income" with the current system would pay his share under the NRST as well as would Mr. Drugdealer, Ms Streetwaker and her pimp. etc. etc.
Don't forget the 20 million illegals... :whistle:
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Don't forget the 20 million illegals... :whistle:
Yes indeed! And the beauty part of that is that they would ALL pay at the maximum rate!
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The day you "abolish the IRS" is the day you eliminate taxation altogether—which of course will never happen. As long as there are taxes, there will be an IRS to collect them in some form.
My $.02 on this idea....'
(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically? Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not. Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.
(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature. In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly. That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review..... It'd die in the next administration, or party change.
(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax... 15%, 20%? would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost. I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings...... Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor.
(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention as the old. New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant. Barter will expand exponentially. People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors. Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.
Don't get me wrong. I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change. But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.
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My $.02 on this idea....'
(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically? Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not. Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.
(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature. In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly. That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review..... It'd die in the next administration, or party change.
(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax... 15%, 20%? would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost. I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings...... Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor.
(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention as the old. New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant. Barter will expand exponentially. People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors. Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.
Don't get me wrong. I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change. But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.
Neat Plausible and entirely wrong!
Read this (https://fairtax.org/faq) and this (https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aefe/6970/2d06/a71d/0000/56c4aefe69702d06a71d0000.pdf?1455730430) and then get back to me.
This (https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/b05c/6970/2d60/1f73/0000/56c4b05c69702d601f730000.pdf?1455730780) is a very good paper as well.
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Neat Plausible and entirely wrong!
Read this (https://fairtax.org/faq) and this (https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aefe/6970/2d06/a71d/0000/56c4aefe69702d06a71d0000.pdf?1455730430) and then get back to me.
This (https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/b05c/6970/2d60/1f73/0000/56c4b05c69702d601f730000.pdf?1455730780) is a very good paper as well.
Bigun, I see you as an ally, and we see eye to eye on so many things here.
But I hate to tell you, nothing in those papers proves me wrong what I mentioned above. Like I said.... I'd love a flat sales tax on the populus.... But it will never happen. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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My $.02 on this idea....'
(1) Others also seem oblivious to the fact that there are other nefarious functions within the IRS to torment, control, or leverage the populus or tip the scales of balance politically? Did everyone forget how one particular president used the IRS to give certain entities exemption status or not. Executive and Legislative Branches are not going to cede that power.
(2) Tax will be seen as highly regressive in nature. In this system every shares in the tax burden uniformly. That will never get by the obstructive left, will never get the legislative support, and even if it did, would be subjected to so much court review..... It'd die in the next administration, or party change.
(3) Early on, the added up front sales tax... 15%, 20%? would have adverse purchase impacts of perceived initial higher cost. I know that sounds ludicrous, but when you have most of the population living pay check to paycheck, and no savings...... Fiscal IQ of the average American is poor.
(4) New system will be as rife with fraud and circumvention as the old. New levels of black market systems on large ticket items will be rampant. Barter will expand exponentially. People will buy foreign, outside the watchfall eyes of sales tax collectors. Tax inlays will come up woefully short of expectations.
Don't get me wrong. I would absolutely love a natiional sales tax, becasue I am a miser, obsessive investor, spendthrift, and would come out a huge winner in this kind of change. But the one thing that puts a dagger in this idea at square 1, is that removing complicated enforcement driven taxation is a tool and a weapon that our government will not relinquish.
We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp
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We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp
:yowsa: pointing-up
If we wait for those little darlings in Washington who love their ability to use the taxcode for their social engineering projects we will get just exactly what we deserve!
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VATs are less intrusive at the consumer level and put more of the burden of collection on larger businesses. The mom and pop store or Amazon reseller doesn't add value by selling goods, that's done at the production/importation level so they wouldn't have to do anything by way of tax collection and payment (direct to the government) but would be responsible for collecting a NRST. The producer (usually a larger business) adds value, pays VAT and passes it on as a cost to the wholesaler or retailer who sells the goods. VAT or NRST is a wash for folks selling goods at farmers markets or handicrafts on Etsy they'd have to pony up both to the government and collect them from customers, but for most commerce, the onus for collecting and reporting a VAT will be on enterprises that can afford accounting and legal departments.
Less intrusive and completely hidden form the taxpayer @The_Reader_David . How the heck are we ever going to get a handle on government spending if taxpayers don't know what all this government is costing them?
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We cannot afford to go along to get along, it is time to shake the tree...
we may not accomplish all we want but if we don't try, we will surely drown in the swamp
Again, I'm game. I love the idea. What I wouldn't give to save a week of my life having to prepare tax returns.
But, and using CW analogies, doing this will be the equivalent of George Pickett's 4th of July charge.
Our enemy has the high ground. Wouldn't be prudent to yield our bayonets (political capital) toward socialist takeover rather than tax reform? i.e choose another battlefield.
Once you add all left of center to 95% of government fighting this? It will never get traction.
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Our government uses so much money, the price on goods to bring in all that money would make items so expensive, one could not buy them.
An side: If China stops sending us goods, the US will fall as most of our medicines come from there and most of the goods we buy come from there.
Right now, we have a man cutting our yard and he works at Nebraska Furniture. They had laid him off due to closing the place and now he is back working there except he said they have little furniture to sell because it comes from China and they aren't sending furniture to them. He said they would get it from China, but he did not know when shipments will start again.
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Less intrusive and completely hidden form the taxpayer @The_Reader_David . How the heck are we ever going to get a handle on government spending if taxpayers don't know what all this government is costing them?
This matter and issue was lost 4 POTUS' ago, when deficit spending went into logrithmic escalation. I hate to keep sounding defeatist, but when we screamed this 20 years ago the sheeple chose not to react.
Now fast forward. Just wait till the socialist dims tell the 44% of Americans who do not pay fed income tax that they now have to pony up to the trough in what they will view as an extra XX% surcharge...... You don't think rioting won't escalate?
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Our government uses so much money, the price on goods to bring in all that money would make items so expensive, one could not buy them.
An side: If China stops sending us goods, the US will fall as most of our medicines come from there and most of the goods we buy come from there.
Right now, we have a man cutting our yard and he works at Nebraska Furniture. They had laid him off due to closing the place and now he is back working there except he said they have little furniture to sell because it comes from China and they aren't sending furniture to them. He said they would get it from China, but he did not know when shipments will start again.
BS! You are paying far more today that is HIDDEN in prices due to the Corporate income tax and its compliance costs!
And BTW: If the Fairtax ever does become law all those manufacturers who have left for other places will not be able to get back to the USA fast enough to suit them because they will be completely free of all the tax overhead that currently kills them in the market place.
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This matter and issue was lost 4 POTUS' ago, when deficit spending went into logrithmic escalation. I hate to keep sounding defeatist, but when we screamed this 20 years ago the sheeple chose not to react.
Now fast forward. Just wait till the socialist dims tell the 44% of Americans who do not pay fed income tax that they now have to pony up to the trough in what they will view as an extra XX% surcharge...... You don't think rioting won't escalate?
People (currently about 45% of the voting public) who perceive that they pay no taxes do not care what the costs are!
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Who bears the burden of a national retail sales tax?
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/who-bears-burden-national-retail-sales-tax (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/who-bears-burden-national-retail-sales-tax)
A national retail sales tax would create a wedge between the prices consumers pay and the amount sellers receive. Theory and evidence suggest that the tax would be passed along to consumers via higher prices.
Because lower-income households spend a greater share of their income than higher-income households do, the burden of a retail sales tax is regressive when measured as a share of current income: the tax burden as a share of income is highest for low-income households and falls sharply as household income rises. The burden of a sales tax is more proportional to income when measured as a share of income over a lifetime. Even by a lifetime income measure, however, the burden of a sales tax as a share of income is lower for high-income households than for other households: a sales tax (like any consumption tax) does not tax the returns (such as dividends and capital gains) from new capital investment and income from capital makes up a larger portion of the total income of high-income households.
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That is just plain not true with the Fairtax which is the ONLY tax plan out there that truly and completely untaxes the poor so that they can get started on building a career.
Educate yourself! https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aa29/6970/2d1d/5600/0000/56c4aa2969702d1d56000000.pdf?1455729193
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People (currently about 45% of the voting public) who perceive that they pay no taxes do not care what the costs are!
Wait a minute. So let me run this sceanrio by you.... (and based on your arbitrary 23% flat VAT, and a 1 Jan 2024 implementation)
Joe Poor who pays no federal income tax, and is oblivous to news or even keeps up with anything involving politics goes to the Grocery Store and finds that his EBT card which has about $100 credit won't pay for his routine bill, and has to take items out his cart to net out the newly updated $123 bill
Susy Millenial has her eyes set on the 2024 Toyota Corolla, but has just found out that the drive out price of that cute little car just went up $10K. Sadly she has to instead sink more money into her junker.
Greedy Catfish has been wanting a new Truck, but with the mindset of not having to give the government one penny more than he has to, decides to pass on the transaction.
You really think people are indofferent in that way? Because there has been plenty of angst about taxes in our history from Boston in 1773, to FDR's 94% upper tax bracket in the '40's.
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Wait a minute. So let me run this sceanrio by you.... (and based on your arbitrary 23% flat VAT, and a 1 Jan 2024 implementation)
What I'm proposing is NOT a VAT in any shape , form or fashion! it is a point of retail sale only SALES TAX on NEW goods and services only.
Joe Poor who pays no federal income tax, and is oblivous to news or even keeps up with anything involving politics goes to the Grocery Store and finds that his EBT card which has about $100 credit won't pay for his routine bill, and has to take items out his cart to net out the newly updated $123 bill
Nope! Joe poor and everyone else who is a United States Citizen, would get a check every month from the government for the taxes on his spending up to the poverty level as determined by HHS. In addition, when all of the current tax overhead is wrung out of prices they will not be any more than they currently are. Especially true of things with long supply chains. And further, the most regressive taxes Joe Poor pays (SSI and medicare payrole taxes) (he pays on the very first dollar earned) are GONE!
Susy Millenial has her eyes set on the 2024 Toyota Corolla, but has just found out that the drive out price of that cute little car just went up $10K. Sadly she has to instead sink more money into her junker.
How much money does Susy have to earn under the present system in order to have the cash available to make that purchase? Under the FAirtax she who have to earn whatever the shelf price is including the tax and since that Toyota is a very long supply chain Item that price, including tax is going to be much less than it is today.
Greedy Catfish has been wanting a new Truck, but with the mindset of not having to give the government one penny more than he has to, decides to pass on the transaction.
Greedy Catfish will have a hell of a lot more money in his pocket because he now gets his ENTIRE paycheck and the price of that truck will be less then it was under the old system.
You really think people are indofferent in that way? Because there has been plenty of angst about taxes in our history from Boston in 1773, to FDR's 94% upper tax bracket in the '40's.
What I can tell you is that excises (taxes) on article of consumption is the ONLY tax system the founder universally endorsed.
"It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit, which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed - that is, an extension of the revenue.
When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four." If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.
Federalist #21 (https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed21.asp)
There was no anti-federalist response.
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The Trouble with the FairTax
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax)
In fact, it’s the bottom third of the economy who benefit the most from the Fair Tax, and the people at the top third who benefit the least. Everybody benefits some. That tax study is one that has been discredited by the people who spent over $20 million, very thoughtful economic study developing the FairTax. It’s not just some political idea.
The tax is designed to protect low-income people from higher taxes via a large new cash transfer program called a “prebate.†Every household would get a cash transfer equal to the amount of tax that a family at the poverty level would owe. (Ironically, this would be the largest welfare program in history.)
The problem is that very high-income households spend only a fraction of their income, while low- and middle-income people spend all or most of what they make. A sales tax, by design, exempts a large share of income at the top. If it includes a prebate to protect people at the bottom and doesn’t add to the deficit, then it must raise taxes on people in the middle.
The Panel also found that the prebate would be extremely expensive, hard for taxpayers to manage, and complex for the IRS to administer. In addition, the panel was concerned a federal retail sales tax rate of 30 percent or more would result in widespread evasion and create real problems for states that rely heavily on their own sales taxes.
FairTax advocates counter that their proposal would also replace regressive payroll and excise taxes (as well as highly progressive estate taxes), but the bottom line is that tax burdens on middle-income households would surely rise while high-income families would get a big tax cut.
Some people might call that an UnfairTax.
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****slapping
Never. Gonna. Happen.
@Fishrrman
Nope.
Mostly because there would be no way for the "Trust Fund Parasites" to avoid paying taxes if it were.
It would also put a huge amount of tax attorney's out of work.
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The Trouble with the FairTax
The tax is designed to protect low-income people from higher taxes via a large new cash transfer program called a “prebate.†Every household would get a cash transfer equal to the amount of tax that a family at the poverty level would owe. (Ironically, this would be the largest welfare program in history.)
https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax)
Now, I wonder.....What agency will compute all that and mail out the "prebates?" :pondering:
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45 of the 50 states already have sales tax collection mechanisms in place and accommodating a NRST would require them to add a few lines of code to their software for which they would be well compensated. And Yes, I'm perfectly onboard with giving states more control over the feral government.
@Bigun
Ahhhh,glad to see someone else spelling it correctly!
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****slapping
@Fishrrman
Nope.
Mostly because there would be no way for the "Trust Fund Parasites" to avoid paying taxes if it were.
It would also put a huge amount of tax attorney's out of work.
Not to mention taking away all the opportunities for social engineering projects the current Marxist income tax system provides the little darlings in Washington who lord over us.
The ONLY way this happens is a ground up demand that can no longer be suppressed and those of us who advocate for it have known that from day one.
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https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax (https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/trouble-fairtax)
Now, I wonder.....What agency will compute all that and mail out the "prebates?" :pondering:
HHS computes the poverty rate. The social security Administration does the actual transfers. ALL in the bill if anyone would bother to read it.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22HR25%22%5D%7D&s=2&r=1 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/25?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22HR25%22%5D%7D&s=2&r=1)
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HHS computes the poverty rate. The social security Administration does the actual transfers. ALL in the bill if anyone would bother to ready it.
I'm against the whole idea of "prebates." They offer an excellent hook for turning taxing authority right back into social engineering, which is what we are trying to get rid of. Why build mischief-making into the structure of the tax?
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I'm against the whole idea of "prebates." They offer an excellent hook for turning taxing authority right back into social engineering, which is what we are trying to get rid of. Why build mischief-making into the structure of the tax?
So am I, but the fact is that the little darlings in Washington start yelling REGRESSIVE (its really not but they don't get economics any better then joe six-pack) at the top of their lungs without it.
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What I'm proposing is NOT a VAT in any shape , form or fashion! it is a point of retail sale only SALES TAX on NEW goods and services only.
VAT or non-VAT.... still does not impact the vaiidity of my argument.
Nope! Joe poor and everyone else who is a United States Citizen, would get a check every month from the government for the taxes on his spending up to the poverty level as determined by HHS. In addition, when all of the current tax overhead is wrung out of prices they will not be any more than they currently are. Especially true of things with long supply chains. And further, the most regressive taxes Joe Poor pays (SSI and medicare payrole taxes) (he pays on the very first dollar earned) are GONE!
WTF??? Everyone gets a check up front? Up to poverty level? So you are basically exempting everything spent up to $30K annually give or take? And @ 23% afterwards? And this is supposed to be tax revenue nuetral? Skeptical is the least of my comments on that one.
How much money does Susy have to earn under the present system in order to have the cash available to make that purchase? Under the FAirtax she who have to earn whatever the shelf price is including the tax and since that Toyota is a very long supply chain Item that price, including tax is going to be much less than it is today.
Assume Suzy is of moderate income (my intent). Your comment concerning supply chain savings is really puzzling. You really think that will drop the cost of that vehicle by that $10K surcharge. Nope... We might be talking $100's at most.
Greedy Catfish will have a hell of a lot more money in his pocket because he now gets his ENTIRE paycheck and the price of that truck will be less then it was under the old system.
No Greedy Catfish, and others will save that money, and withhold it from the economy. How does your system address budget shortfalls, capital gains, estate taxes, etc. Seems the system you are is more aligned to payroll and general income, where is the accounting for shortfalls in those areas? Don't get me wrong, I would be the first to raise the banner of lower taxes, but I also am keen to when someone starts the smoke and mirrors light show, and the snake oil cocktails start flowing
What I can tell you is that excises (taxes) on article of consumption is the ONLY tax system the founder universally endorsed.
Blame 150 or so years of fed imposed bureacracy that have usurped peoples money and power. It's been a slow and steady creep of rot. It's going to take more than this to reverse that. Like I previously said..... The headwinds are of hurricane force, and the force leading the charge is too small and too weak. If there is change, tax revolt would be just one part of that revoution. But again, I am not holding my breath. The sheeple are too meek.
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OK! I'm all for more savings!
And you are completely wrong about how much prices would drop. Especially on long supply chain items because all that tax an compliance cost overhead I have previously mentioned cascades all the way up and own that supply chain.
The guy who digs up the iron ore includes ALL of his costs in his prices to the smelter and on and on and on!
I am under no illusions as to the headwinds @catfish1957 I am trying to save a little of what remains of the republic for my posterity.
Edit to add: The revenew neutral rate would be about 17% without the prebate feature.
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https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/ (https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/)
Stephen Moore Was One Of The “Principal Architects†Of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s “Massive Tax Cuts,†Which Did Not Create The Economic Boom He Predicted. “But those who will evaluate the revised Trump tax cut proposal should keep something in mind: Moore and Laffer were principal architects of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s massive tax cuts, and their predictions that those tax cuts would spur an ‘immediate’ Kansas economic boom have proved strikingly inaccurate.†[Michael Mazerov, “Kansas’ Tax Cut Experience Refutes Economic Growth Predictions of Trump Tax Advisors,†Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 08/12/16]
Although Brownback Promised That The Tax Cuts Would Be A “‘Shot Of Adrenaline’†To The Economy When They Were Passed By The Legislature In 2012, Kansas’ Revenues Fell, Its Economy Grew At A Slower Rate Than The Rest Of The Nation, And The State Cut Investment In Education And Infrastructure. “In 2012, the Republican governor pushed reforms through the state Legislature that dramatically cut income taxes across the board. Brownback boasted the plan would deliver a ‘shot of adrenaline’ to the Kansas economy. Revenues shrank, and the economy grew more slowly than in neighboring states and the country as a whole. Kansas’ bond rating plummeted, and the state cut funding to education and infrastructure.†[Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,†NPR, 10/25/17]
Just Four Years After Governor Brownback’s Tax Experiment Was Enacted, Kansas’ Republican Legislature “Voted To Roll Back The Tax Cuts,†And The State Was Still Struggling To Close A $900 Million Deficit As Of Late 2017. In 2016, “the Republican-controlled state Legislature voted to roll back the tax cuts, but Kansas is still dealing with the aftermath of this bold experiment. State lawmakers are now seeking to close a $900 million budget gap over the next two years.†[Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,†NPR, 10/25/17]
Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,†While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.â€
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Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,†While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.â€
Kind of exactly where I was going with the whole discussion. Things like shortalls in estate taxes, and captial gains as examples, just don't seem to be taken account in the equation.
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https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/ (https://alliedprogress.org/news/a-tax-day-reminder-stephen-moores-tax-ideas-are-so-bad-they-wrecked-kansas-economy/)
Stephen Moore Was One Of The “Principal Architects†Of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s “Massive Tax Cuts,†Which Did Not Create The Economic Boom He Predicted. “But those who will evaluate the revised Trump tax cut proposal should keep something in mind: Moore and Laffer were principal architects of Kansas Governor Sam Brownback’s massive tax cuts, and their predictions that those tax cuts would spur an ‘immediate’ Kansas economic boom have proved strikingly inaccurate.†[Michael Mazerov, “Kansas’ Tax Cut Experience Refutes Economic Growth Predictions of Trump Tax Advisors,†Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, 08/12/16]
Although Brownback Promised That The Tax Cuts Would Be A “‘Shot Of Adrenaline’†To The Economy When They Were Passed By The Legislature In 2012, Kansas’ Revenues Fell, Its Economy Grew At A Slower Rate Than The Rest Of The Nation, And The State Cut Investment In Education And Infrastructure. “In 2012, the Republican governor pushed reforms through the state Legislature that dramatically cut income taxes across the board. Brownback boasted the plan would deliver a ‘shot of adrenaline’ to the Kansas economy. Revenues shrank, and the economy grew more slowly than in neighboring states and the country as a whole. Kansas’ bond rating plummeted, and the state cut funding to education and infrastructure.†[Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,†NPR, 10/25/17]
Just Four Years After Governor Brownback’s Tax Experiment Was Enacted, Kansas’ Republican Legislature “Voted To Roll Back The Tax Cuts,†And The State Was Still Struggling To Close A $900 Million Deficit As Of Late 2017. In 2016, “the Republican-controlled state Legislature voted to roll back the tax cuts, but Kansas is still dealing with the aftermath of this bold experiment. State lawmakers are now seeking to close a $900 million budget gap over the next two years.†[Jeremy Hobson, Dean Russell, and Samantha Raphelson, “As Trump Proposes Tax Cuts, Kansas Deals With Aftermath Of Experiment,†NPR, 10/25/17]
Despite The Havoc It Wreaked On Kansas’ Economy, Stephen Moore Maintained Just Last Year That The Kansas Plan Was “Mostly Very Positive,†While Admitting That “The Revenues Didn’t Come In As Anticipated.â€
What Went Wrong In Kansas? Maybe Nothing
I think it's too early to tell if the Kansas experiment was a failure. It may be that the tax cuts have not been given enough time, because tax changes rarely have immediate consequences at the state level. I have often pointed out that tax increases almost never harm the economy in the short run. Neither businesses nor people move immediately after a tax increase. Corporations don't sell their plants and equipment and move their workforce on short notice. And people don't sell their houses, quit their country clubs, or take their kids out of school because the income tax rate goes up. I believe that increasing tax burdens harms economic development in the long run -- it doesn't happen overnight.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanalysts/2014/07/16/what-went-wrong-in-kansas-maybe-nothing/#44627efa5ddc (https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanalysts/2014/07/16/what-went-wrong-in-kansas-maybe-nothing/#44627efa5ddc)
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Kind of exactly where I was going with the whole discussion. Things like shortalls in estate taxes, and captial gains as examples, just don't seem to be taken account in the equation.
But they are: https://fairtax.org/research-library/the-economy
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But they are: https://fairtax.org/research-library/the-economy
There is nothing in that linked articled which addresses shortfalls in either of those tax inlays.
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Failed tax-cut experiment in Kansas should guide national leaders
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment (https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment)
The reason for the failure of the Brownback experiment, and the likely failure of the Trump tax cuts, is that they didn’t account for the ways that economic inequality today obstructs, distorts and subverts the pathways to economic growth that is strong, stable and broadly shared.
They ignore extensive evidence of what — in fact — drives economic growth and stability and can deliver improvements in living standards.
Instead, they reflect supply-side economics, as trumpeted by Arthur Laffer, who was a paid consultant for the Brownback plan and a volunteer cheerleader for the Trump tax cuts. Laffer’s theory of growth has been a foundation for economic policies since the 1980s.
There is an alternative explanation for how the economy grows. A strong economy comes from a society where good ideas and talented people are not obstructed from economic opportunity.
It’s when investors don’t have distorted incentives but rather see that a strong middle class is ready and able to purchase the goods and services their firms produce.
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Failed tax-cut experiment in Kansas should guide national leaders
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment (https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/418768-kansas-voters-render-final-verdict-on-failed-tax-cut-experiment)
Since I pretty much budget down to the dollar, I (if capital gains taxes are outlawed or excluded) have calculated that Mr. Brownback's changes would save me $73,298 the first year in taxes alone. Sign me up. !!!! :cool:
And I am just one person. No one is gonna let this pipe dream fly!!!!!
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There is nothing in that linked articled which addresses shortfalls in either of those tax inlays.
There is plenty in those article that addresses all the taxes that are repealed which includes those you mentioned.
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A strong economy comes from a society where good ideas and talented people are not obstructed from economic opportunity.
Yep! And the Marxist income tax obstructs people from economic opportunity at every turn whereas the Fairtax would allow anyone to open or expand a business without first spending one second of time or one penny of money investigating the tax implications of that move.
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There is plenty in those article that addresses all the taxes that are repealed which includes those you mentioned.
Okay I dug, and found it. Everything is deep sixed. Seems in almost all cases everyone wins, and pays less taxes. I sure do, to the tone of $73K. So just where do you find the skittle pooping unicorns that generate enough keeps Fedzilla fed and solvent? Seems like smoke and mirrors at this point.
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Okay I dug, and found it. Everything is deep sixed. Seems in almost all cases everyone wins, and pays less taxes. I sure do, to the tone of $73K. So just where do you find the skittle pooping unicorns that generate enough keeps Fedzilla fed and solvent? Seems like smoke and mirrors at this point.
From the folks who currently pay no "income" taxes mainly despite what may seem to you. The fact is that the Fairtax bill is very likely the single most researched bill (about $30 Million all privately paid for) ever put before Congress.
The fairtax base is hugely larger than that of the current mess!
https://fairtax-structure-psyclone.netdna-ssl.com/client_assets/fairtaxorg/media/attachments/56c4/aec2/6970/2d1c/f608/0000/56c4aec269702d1cf6080000.pdf?1455730370
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No matter what we do, it is still going to be "take from the rich and give to the poor".
We need to somehow dismantle the feds reach and move state functions back to the states, like Federal Highways and Education..
Turn the EPA into an insurance company and strip it of the authority to steal property.
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From the folks who currently pay no "income" taxes mainly despite what may seem to you.
I'd like that. But do you think ANY poliitican would go on record and say that? , or even much less legislate it. Like it or not, MSM would finish off the GOP if they sponsored somethoing like what you just memtioned. Talk about bad optics.
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No matter what we do, it is still going to be "take from the rich and give to the poor".
We need to somehow dismantle the feds reach and move state functions back to the states, like Federal Highways and Education..
Turn the EPA into an insurance company and strip it of the authority to steal property.
I dealt with the EPA for 35 years. They are the closest thing to an American Gestapo that there is.
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I'm just wondering a little what it will be like in 50 years when we have both a sales tax and an income tax. Sure, we could repeal the 16th, which would reset things to where they were before that black day: The government had already instituted an Income Tax following the Civil War. It was found unconstitutional by the SCOTUS, and that's why they passed the 16th in the first place.
Now...take a look at the black-robed tyrants on the SCOTUS today, then tell me they would find the same way as the SCOTUS did in the 19th Century. John Roberts will find a way to structure the National Government's argument to make it magically legal, as he did with O'Bastardcare. You have to know that decision was a source of great pride for the court's newest Souter.
That is my base problem with this proposal: We will end up with both taxes, and at higher rates than before. And the destruction of the US economy will proceed even faster.
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Seems like smoke and mirrors at this point.
@catfish1957
Dear fish, it is smoke and mirrors because the government sets the amount of tax on items purchased. They will raise that rate and raise that rate and raise that rate and no one can/would stop them. The more they raise the rate, the more money they get. The poor won't be able to purchase items due to the tax rate and higher tax rate and higher tax rate.
The poor didn't buy much anyway, so forget them. Finally, the medium group will be affected, they then only buy what they actually must have, and they are the cash cow for the government. The rich will buy what they want from some other country that doesn't have this system. The government goes down the rabbit hole and the income tax must come back if the country is to exist.
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@catfish1957
Dear fish, it is smoke and mirrors because the government sets the amount of tax on items purchased. They will raise that rate and raise that rate and raise that rate and no one can/would stop them. The more they raise the rate, the more money they get. The poor won't be able to purchase items due to the tax rate and higher tax rate and higher tax rate.
And, with a bit of chicanery the Income Tax will come back when the raising doesn't raise enough cash. All they need are 5 leftist Justices on SCOTUS, and they have that right now, with Robert's abdication of principals and now-reliable liberal vote.
Let us not forget: If Congress gets the stones to repeal the 16th, it will be done with an eye to ensuring a loophole to permit it. In a few decades, we will have both an Income and a Sales Tax, at higher levels than ever before.
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@catfish1957
Dear fish, it is smoke and mirrors because the government sets the amount of tax on items purchased. They will raise that rate and raise that rate and raise that rate and no one can/would stop them. The more they raise the rate, the more money they get. The poor won't be able to purchase items due to the tax rate and higher tax rate and higher tax rate.
The poor didn't buy much anyway, so forget them. Finally, the medium group will be affected, they then only buy what they actually must have, and they are the cash cow for the government. The rich will buy what they want from some other country that doesn't have this system. The government goes down the rabbit hole and the income tax must come back if the country is to exist.
Wielding the sledge hammer already...
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Wielding the sledge hammer already...
Already reminding you that anything we want, no matter how small, is a "sledge hammer" to the Democrat Socialist media.
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Already reminding you that anything we want, no matter how small, is a "sledge hammer" to the Democrat Socialist media.
Understand, but that is she is not the media, we are shooting ourselves in the foot...
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Already reminding you that anything we want, no matter how small, is a "sledge hammer" to the Democrat Socialist media.
@EdinVA
@Cyber Liberty
"The poor didn't buy much anyway, so forget them."
I meant that is what the government would think.
Their money would come from the middle class, not the poor, so they would ignore the poor. I go to a Catholic Church and we feed the poor every day.
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There sure are some dreamers in this forum.
Abolish the IRS?
This is a joke, right?
Wait until the communists assume full power here.
Then you'll see how abusive taxation can REALLY become.
Value-added tax?
Yes, of course!
ALONG WITH the harsher income taxes as well.
Some of the previous posts... well... they're downright whimsical or laugh-out-loud funny...!
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There sure are some dreamers in this forum.
Abolish the IRS?
This is a joke, right?
Wait until the communists assume full power here.
Then you'll see how abusive taxation can REALLY become.
Value-added tax?
Yes, of course!
ALONG WITH the harsher income taxes as well.
Some of the previous posts... well... they're downright whimsical or laugh-out-loud funny...!
All already in place @Fishrrman
I've been at this for a long time and have no purpose other than to remind folks that we will never again be a truly FREE people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist Income tax and its handmaiden the IRS!
You are welcome to laugh all you please!
One thing I have learned is that this guy was right!
“It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.â€
Voltaire
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And, with a bit of chicanery the Income Tax will come back when the raising doesn't raise enough cash. In a few decades, we will have both an Income and a Sales Tax, at higher levels than ever before.
Yes, that would be my next paragraph if I had kept writing. We cannot stop government from taking our money, and they if they do Sales Tax only, they will start regular Income Tax again and keep both.
I have been to England many times as my son has lived there over 25 years. They have VAT on all purchases, which means "Value Added Tax". When I bought something there, upon going to the airport when leaving, there was a desk where I gave them the bills and they gave the VAT money back to me as I didn't live there so did not pay that tax.
Story: It pays to be honest.
One time, I bought too much in England, over the dollar amount the US allows you to spend and bring back to this country. I would have to pay a US customs fee.
When I got to the US Airport, I had my bills together, went to the customs desk, and said to the man, "I bought too much. Here are my bills."
He looked at the bills and the items and said, "No tax on books, new or old. We do not charge for bringing in antiques. You owe nothing."
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@catfish1957
Dear fish, it is smoke and mirrors because the government sets the amount of tax on items purchased. They will raise that rate and raise that rate and raise that rate and no one can/would stop them. The more they raise the rate, the more money they get. The poor won't be able to purchase items due to the tax rate and higher tax rate and higher tax rate.
The poor didn't buy much anyway, so forget them. Finally, the medium group will be affected, they then only buy what they actually must have, and they are the cash cow for the government. The rich will buy what they want from some other country that doesn't have this system. The government goes down the rabbit hole and the income tax must come back if the country is to exist.
Oh yeah, I kind of alluded to it more or less a few posts ago. But don't forget the main thing. Our tax code is complicated and convulted for a reason. All in a manner for the IRS to used it for power via confusion and obfuscation. Do you think the IRS, and congress are going to relinquish that power in favor of a simpler system that the consumer can control his own destiny in how he wants to fund his government? Heck no.
In theory, I like the suggestion, as it would benefit me significantly. But thinking this could ever get past a power point presentation is pure folly.
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Oh yeah, I kind of alluded to it more or less a few posts ago. But don't forget the main thing. Our tax code is complicated and convulted for a reason. All in a manner for the IRS to used it for power via confusion and obfuscation. Do you think the IRS, and congress are going to relinquish that power in favor of a simpler system that the consumer can control his own destiny in how he wants to fund his government? Heck no.
In theory, I like the suggestion, as it would benefit me significantly. But thinking this could ever get past a power point presentation is pure folly.
Nobody, least of all me, ever said it was going to be easy! NOTHING worthwhile ever is.
But know this. I believe in this so much that I would gladly lay down my life to see it enacted.
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"Give me control of a nations' money, and I care not who runs the government."
Meyer Rothschild (1743-1812
After having tried from the inception of the Republic, they finally got it done in 1913 and the rest is history.