The Briefing Room

General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 07:11:12 am

Title: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 07:11:12 am
For imbeciles and morons who insult those refusing to agree with proposals to require insurance and register all firearms with condescension to insist "registration does not lead to confiscation", the fact is that the anti-gun movement is heading into it's end game where the masks are coming off and they are telling us "Yes, we want a complete disarmament of the civilian population".

We have half or more of a population that no longer considers the Constitution or the BOR valid, and a government now run by Republicans that look like they are going to do what Obama, Hillary and their hordes of Anti-American Marxists have been unable to do.  The treasonous antagonists are now begun a movement beyond just banning some accessories and more background checks.  They are calling for the government to ban and confiscate all civilian arms, and a willing press to give them 24/7 loudspeakers.

I do not know what course others will stake, but for me - this is the hill to resist and die on.  The funny thing is, they are going to have to empower their government to equip agents with guns to go out and kill those gun owners with guns,  who refuse to comply and surrender them should they get their wish.

Quote
It’s time for a gun abolition movement (https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/25/maine-voices-yes-we-want-to-take-away-your-guns-the-case-for-civilian-disarmament/)
We need to stand up to the NRA and push for what is so desperately needed: a complete ban on firearms.

...To end gun deaths, we need to ban all civilian guns.

...Banning guns is especially problematic when the Second Amendment is touted as the right of any individual to own firearms.

Yet while we are a nation that reveres our Constitution, we are also one that changes it when it becomes clear that the Founding Fathers failed to see what modern times require. We changed the Constitution to allow women the right to vote. We reinterpreted it to protect the right to gay marriage.

...Abolishing guns will profoundly alter the American way of life for the better, just like women’s suffrage did. Is gun abolition too extreme? Not if human life comes first.

...Let’s clear the air and call for total civilian disarmament. Period.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Free Vulcan on March 01, 2018, 07:17:20 am
Spawn of Stalin, doing what they always do.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 07:25:35 am
Spawn of Stalin, doing what they always do.

With a growing portion, maybe nearing half of population and much of the Millennial generation who now think Communism is better than Capitalism.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goatprairie on March 01, 2018, 12:01:43 pm
The first step to government tyranny is to disarm the average citizen.
They'll do it under the guise of "saving the children" using the tragedy in  Florida as an excuse to grab all guns.
Even when it's been conclusively shown that the tragedy could have been stopped by authorities doing their job, that doesn't deter the gun grabbers.
 I believe many prospective American Stalins are put off somewhat by the idea that their dreams of a totalitarian state might be squelched by some armed citizen who would stop them before they could implement their prison state.
Huey Long, was killed by a doctor I believe who feared Long would get elected president and rule like a dictator. Supposedly, he ran Louisiana like a little dictator and had aspirations of becoming the Grand Dictator of the U.S.
Hang on to your guns to put the fear of God into any future Huey Longs.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 12:23:46 pm
It is fascinating to consider how similar the pro-gun and pro-abortion extremists are.   Here's INVAR breathlessly shouting "they're coming for our guns!" on the basis of some crank opinion in a Maine newspaper.   Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right, so does the pro-gun crowd convince itself that reasonable regulation of firearms is just cover for the true goal of confiscation.

Why is this?    The answer's pretty clear to me.   As I've explained elsewhere,  the natural, individual right to self-defense (that is, outside the context of providing for the civilian militia) isn't protected by the Second Amendment,  but by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.   The right to abortion is likewise not codified in the Constitution, but derives from the natural right of privacy as enunciated by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.

In other words,  the right to abortion and the individual right to bear arms are both a product of the same "living Constitution" and just as fragile.   How many of us voted for Trump mainly because he promised to appoint conservative justices that, we hope, will overturn the right to abortion?   Well, the individual RKBA is just as susceptible to being lost on the decision of some future SCOTUS majority.   And the votes we - both right and left - cast for President are ground zero in ensuring the makeup of the courts that will secure the precious  rights we fear are most fragile. 

It is a situation that is fundmentally poisonous to our nation.   

The solution is to amend the Constitution to codify the individual RKBA.   Just as I've urged for years that the Constitution be amended to codify the right of privacy.   Whatever you may think of living Constitutions,  they have the perverse effect of polarizing our political culture.   For the left, it's all about saving abortion,  for the right, it's all about saving guns.  And so the red vs. blue divide deepens,  and folks like INVAR call for war.





Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goatprairie on March 01, 2018, 12:40:51 pm
It is fascinating to consider how similar the pro-gun and pro-abortion extremists are.   Here's INVAR breathlessly shouting "they're coming for our guns!" on the basis of some crank opinion in a Maine newspaper.   Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right, so does the pro-gun crowd convince itself that reasonable regulation of firearms is just cover for the true goal of confiscation.

Why is this?    The answer's pretty clear to me.   As I've explained elsewhere,  the natural, individual right to self-defense (that is, outside the context of providing for the civilian militia) isn't protected by the Second Amendment,  but by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.   The right to abortion is likewise not codified in the Constitution, but derives from the natural right of privacy as enunciated by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.

In other words,  the right to abortion and the individual right to bear arms are both a product of the same "living Constitution" and just as fragile.   How many of us voted for Trump mainly because he promised to appoint conservative justices that, we hope, will overturn the right to abortion?   Well, the individual RKBA is just as susceptible to being lost on the decision of some future SCOTUS majority.   And the votes we - both right and left - cast for President are ground zero in ensuring the makeup of the courts that will secure the precious  rights we fear are most fragile. 

It is a situation that is fundmentally poisonous to our nation.   

The solution is to amend the Constitution to codify the individual RKBA.   Just as I've urged for years that the Constitution be amended to codify the right of privacy.   Whatever you may think of living Constitutions,  they have the perverse effect of polarizing our political culture.   For the left, it's all about saving abortion,  for the right, it's all about saving guns.  And so the red vs. blue divide deepens,  and folks like INVAR call for war.
It isn't just those two rights. And the "right" to privacy (nowhere enunciated in the constitution) does not automatically translate into the right to kill your kid.
At any rate, all natural rights are subject to intepretation and being severely altered or eliminated by certain people i..e leftists.
The right to free speech is being increasingly strained by the usual suspects who are concerned about peoples' feeling being hurt by certain speech directed at them.
In short, all natural rights are constantly under assault by leftists and not just the right to be armed. Leftists originated the idea of the "living constitution" in order to eventually take away all natural rights under the guise of "protecting the people."
INVAR is correct...they, leftists,  are coming for our guns.  Because they're eventually coming for all our rights.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 01:09:40 pm
Vermont Senate unanimously approves gun confiscation bill
http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182 (http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182)
 Feb 28, 2018

Gun Confiscation Bill Passes Oregon House
http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house (http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house)
02.15.18

Let's Be Honest, The Latest Gun Control Bill Is Pretty Much A Total Ban On Firearms
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670 (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670)
Feb 27, 2018

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 01:31:16 pm
It isn't just those two rights. And the "right" to privacy (nowhere enunciated in the constitution) does not automatically translate into the right to kill your kid.
At any rate, all natural rights are subject to intepretation and being severely altered or eliminated by certain people i..e leftists.
The right to free speech is being increasingly strained by the usual suspects who are concerned about peoples' feeling being hurt by certain speech directed at them.
In short, all natural rights are constantly under assault by leftists and not just the right to be armed. Leftists originated the idea of the "living constitution" in order to eventually take away all natural rights under the guise of "protecting the people."
INVAR is correct...they, leftists,  are coming for our guns.  Because they're eventually coming for all our rights.

You're being myopic, GP.   Both the right and the left are threats to our natural rights.   Do you think the natural rights of privacy and self-determination are any less important to women than your natural right to protect your home and family is to you?    Do you think women are justified in their concern that the pro-life movement seeks not to regulate their right but abolish it,  just as you are justified in your concern that the anti-gun left seeks not to regulate the conditions of ownership of guns but to confiscate them? 

That's the problem with a living Constitution -  natural rights protected by such a compact depend on the whim of a 5-4 SCOTUS majority.   Just as pro-lifers for years have been "single issue" voters,  hoping that voting for conservatives will lead to the appointment of justices who will deny a woman's right to decide for herself whether to reproduce,  increasingly many on the left have become single issue-obsessed over guns,  hoping that the election of Hillary Clinton (or similar beastie) will provide the SCOTUS majority that will overturn Heller.   

The divide between red and blue all boils down to guns and abortion, and the fragile rights that underpin them.   It is time to codify these rights in the Constitution.   That is, to me, the silver bullet that can bring this country together again in good will.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 01:39:27 pm
Vermont Senate unanimously approves gun confiscation bill
http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182 (http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182)
 Feb 28, 2018

Gun Confiscation Bill Passes Oregon House
http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house (http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house)
02.15.18

Let's Be Honest, The Latest Gun Control Bill Is Pretty Much A Total Ban On Firearms
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670 (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670)
Feb 27, 2018

The House Dem bill that bans "assault" weapons deserves to be opposed by everyone on this board,  but the Vermont and Oregon bills merely provide for gun violence restraining orders.   The latter have considerable merit, provided of course that they include guarantees of due process.   A GVRO isn't targeted at gun owners generally, restricting their liberty to choose the type of guns they want to protect their homes and property,  but rather focused on gun owners who represent a credible threat to themselves or others.  Like Nikolas Cruz.   There was never enough evidence to arrest and incarcerate Mr. Cruz, but if the GVRO option had been available, there appears to have been enough evidence to strip him of his weapons for a time.   That could have saved 17 lives. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 01:44:30 pm
The House Dem bill that bans "assault" weapons deserves to be opposed by everyone on this board,  but the Vermont and Oregon bills merely provide for gun violence restraining orders.   The latter have considerable merit, provided of course that they include guarantees of due process.   A GVRO isn't targeted at gun owners generally, restricting their liberty to choose the type of guns they want to protect their homes and property,  but rather focused on gun owners who represent a credible threat to themselves or others.  Like Nikolas Cruz.   There was never enough evidence to arrest and incarcerate Mr. Cruz, but if the GVRO option had been available, there appears to have been enough evidence to strip him of his weapons for a time.   That could have saved 17 lives.

That is key if this goes forward.  A phone call from someone complaining is not reason to strip a citizens rights.  And a straight forward means of being able to refute the complaint.  Guilty until proven innocent is NOT the way forward in this subject.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 01:47:22 pm
That is key if this goes forward.  A phone call from someone complaining is not reason to strip a citizens rights.  And a straight forward means of being able to refute the complaint.  Guilty until proven innocent is NOT the way forward in this subject.

What in your view are appropriate and practical due process protections that you would find acceptable in a GVRO bill?   Are there any current examples of current or proposed GVRO legislation that you would recommend as models?   

Let's look at Nikolas Cruz.   Police are tipped regarding his statements on social media, and have other knowledge of past violent incidents where police had to come to the door.   The police bring the complaint,  backed up by the foregoing evidence.  Cruz is permitted to defend himself before the judge.   The judge then rules, and strips him of his guns for, say, 90 days subject to a rehearing and reconsideration.   17 lives are saved.   Is the foregoing sufficient due process for you?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 02:02:45 pm
What in your view are appropriate and practical due process protections that you would find acceptable in a GVRO bill?   Are there any current examples of current or proposed GVRO legislation that you would recommend as models?   

Let's look at Nikolas Cruz.   Police are tipped regarding his statements on social media, and have other knowledge of past violent incidents where police had to come to the door.   The police bring the complaint,  backed up by the foregoing evidence.  Cruz is permitted to defend himself before the judge.   The judge then rules, and strips him of his guns for, say, 90 days subject to a rehearing and reconsideration.   17 lives are saved.   Is the foregoing sufficient due process for you?

One thing I struggle greatly with is the concept an individual cannot be trusted with a legal firearm, but will be left free in society otherwise.  To pretend this will prevent him from harming others just seems insane.

It is focusing on something that is not the real problem, while ignoring the real danger to others, the individual.  In my mind, that sets us up for more deaths, by pretending we did something worthwhile and removing focus from the actual problem.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:07:03 pm
One thing I struggle greatly with is the concept an individual cannot be trusted with a legal firearm, but will be left free in society otherwise.  To pretend this will prevent him from harming others just seems insane.

It is focusing on something that is not the real problem, while ignoring the real danger to others, the individual.  In my mind, that sets us up for more deaths, by pretending we did something worthwhile and removing focus from the actual problem.

I hear you, thackney.   We're decades beyond the days when the mentally unstable were warehoused in institutions.   They live among us, for better or worse.  But it seems to me that a violent, paranoid crazy without a gun is less of a potential danger than a violent, paranoid crazy with a gun. Sure, he could just get into his (licensed and registered) car and plow into a crowd,  but I still see the value in denying him the tool of an semi-automatic rifle. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goatprairie on March 01, 2018, 02:10:58 pm
You're being myopic, GP.   Both the right and the left are threats to our natural rights.   Do you think the natural rights of privacy and self-determination are any less important to women than your natural right to protect your home and family is to you?    Do you think women are justified in their concern that the pro-life movement seeks not to regulate their right but abolish it,  just as you are justified in your concern that the anti-gun left seeks not to regulate the conditions of ownership of guns but to confiscate them? 

That's the problem with a living Constitution -  natural rights protected by such a compact depend on the whim of a 5-4 SCOTUS majority.   Just as pro-lifers for years have been "single issue" voters,  hoping that voting for conservatives will lead to the appointment of justices who will deny a woman's right to decide for herself whether to reproduce,  increasingly many on the left have become single issue-obsessed over guns,  hoping that the election of Hillary Clinton (or similar beastie) will provide the SCOTUS majority that will overturn Heller.   

The divide between red and blue all boils down to guns and abortion, and the fragile rights that underpin them.   It is time to codify these rights in the Constitution.   That is, to me, the silver bullet that can bring this country together again in good will.   
You're getting ahead of yourself. There is no "right to privacy" anywhere in the constitution. We all have an idea of what it means, but it's not stipulated in the constitution and therefore can't be used as a legal argument to justify abortion.
If you think having the "right" to kill your kid is something women should have, that's a separate argument.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 02:11:52 pm
I hear you, thackney.   We're decades beyond the days when the mentally unstable were warehoused in institutions.   They live among us, for better or worse.  But it seems to me that a violent, paranoid crazy without a gun is less of a potential danger than a violent, paranoid crazy with a gun. Sure, he could just get into his (licensed and registered) car and plow into a crowd,  but I still see the value in denying him the tool of an semi-automatic rifle.

You haven't denied him that tool, only a legal means of buying it.  You don't solve the problem with this method.  You give people false sense of security that does not exit.  I see that as increasing the danger, not diminishing it.  For that reason I don't support a means of removing guns without other limits to the individual after due process.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 02:15:47 pm
The divide between red and blue all boils down to guns and abortion, and the fragile rights that underpin them.   It is time to codify these rights in the Constitution.  That is, to me, the silver bullet that can bring this country together again in good will.


We already have the right to bear arms in the Constitution.  Thankfully, it's difficult to adopt or repeal amendments.  Now, you want one to guarantee abortion rights?  Good luck.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Restored on March 01, 2018, 02:21:26 pm
You cannot abolish guns anymore than we could abolish illegal drugs. The prisons are full of people who sold drugs illegally. Prohibition does not end the problem. If you can sneak people and drugs across the border, you can sneak AK's.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:25:35 pm
"Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right,"

@Jazzhead  The true goal of the prolife movement is abolishment of infanticide! This statement alone is proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. By the way, you still haven't addressed why Dick's shouldn't be forced to sell semiautomatic weapons. If bakers can be forced to sell cakes or face punishment, Dick's should be forced to sell guns or be punished.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 02:26:21 pm
What in your view are appropriate and practical due process protections that you would find acceptable in a GVRO bill?   Are there any current examples of current or proposed GVRO legislation that you would recommend as models?   

Let's look at Nikolas Cruz.   Police are tipped regarding his statements on social media, and have other knowledge of past violent incidents where police had to come to the door.   The police bring the complaint,  backed up by the foregoing evidence.  Cruz is permitted to defend himself before the judge.   The judge then rules, and strips him of his guns for, say, 90 days subject to a rehearing and reconsideration.   17 lives are saved.   Is the foregoing sufficient due process for you?

BALONEY!!
If he is THAT great a danger there should be evidence enough to either convict or commit him.
This thought police bullcrap has to stop.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:28:02 pm

We already have the right to bear arms in the Constitution.  Thankfully, it's difficult to adopt or repeal amendments.  Now, you want one to guarantee abortion rights?  Good luck.

But, see, that's the thing - the natural right of individual self defense is not addressed in the Second Amendment.  It is protected by the Constitution by reason of the Heller decision - a fragile, 5 -4 decision.   Its protection derives from the same "penumbras and emanations" that protect the natural right of privacy - and which similarly hinge on a fragile 5 -4 decision. 

The Constitution needs to be amended to codify the Heller decision.  Until it is,  the next Dem President can appoint the Justice(s) that will overturn Heller and rule that the 2A is limited to the context of the citizen militia and offers no protection to you and me.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:28:52 pm
You cannot abolish guns anymore than we could abolish illegal drugs. The prisons are full of people who sold drugs illegally. Prohibition does not end the problem. If you can sneak people and drugs across the border, you can sneak AK's.

Exactly. If prohibition works, then the world would have never known the Kennedys.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:31:40 pm
"Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right,"

@Jazzhead  The true goal of the prolife movement is abolishment of infanticide!

Thanks for your honesty.   The pro-life movement wants to deny the natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce.   That's why the left, year after year,  attacks conservatives so vehemently:  they believe - as you have just admitted - that we seek "confiscation" of a right that women have relied on to order their lives for over 40 years now.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:33:36 pm
BALONEY!!
If he is THAT great a danger there should be evidence enough to either convict or commit him.
This thought police bullcrap has to stop.

There likely wasn't.   It takes more to incarcerate an individual than pointing to crazy postings on the internet.  But, with due process, a GVRO law could have stripped him of his weapons of mass murder.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 02:37:16 pm
Thanks for your honesty.   The pro-life movement wants to deny the natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce.   That's why the left, year after year,  attacks conservatives so vehemently:  they believe - as you have just admitted - that we seek "confiscation" of a right that women have relied on to order their lives for over 40 years now.


If you had the ability to go back in time, would you rather have Cruz incarcerated prior to the shooting or aborted prior to birth?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:37:25 pm
Thanks for your honesty.   The pro-life movement wants to deny the natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce.   That's why the left, year after year,  attacks conservatives so vehemently:  they believe - as you have just admitted - that we seek "confiscation" of a right that women have relied on to order their lives for over 40 years now.

1. There was never any denial from the prolife movement that we want an end to infanticide.

2. There is no "natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce." It literally doesn't exist.

3. Why are you against the "confiscation" of a manmade "right" women have had for over 40 years, yet you are perfectly fine the confiscation of a natural right that we have had for over 200 years?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:37:27 pm
"Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right,"

@Jazzhead   By the way, you still haven't addressed why Dick's shouldn't be forced to sell semiautomatic weapons. If bakers can be forced to sell cakes or face punishment, Dick's should be forced to sell guns or be punished.

I haven't addressed it because the analogy is stupid.   The baker advertised he sold wedding cakes,  but refused to sell a wedding cake to his gay customer.  He broke his word because of his bigotry.   Dick's advertises that it sells some guns but not "assault" rifles - and presumably abides by the same policy with respect to both gay and straight customers.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:39:39 pm

If you had the ability to go back in time, would you rather have Cruz incarcerated prior to the shooting or aborted prior to birth?

Here's another one for @Jazzhead : If aborted babies were killed with guns instead of chemicals and scalpels, would he be antiabortion and progun?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:40:52 pm
I haven't addressed it because the analogy is stupid.   The baker advertised he sold wedding cakes,  but refused to sell a wedding cake to his gay customer.  He broke his word because of his bigotry.   Dick's advertises that it sells some guns but not "assault" rifles - and presumably abides by the same policy with respect to both gay and straight customers.

So if a gay customer wanted to buy a semiauto from Dicks and they refused then Dick's would be guilty of something, but if a straight customer wanted to buy a semiauto and were denied Dicks is innocent of any wrongdoing?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:41:53 pm
1. There was never any denial from the prolife movement that we want an end to infanticide.

2. There is no "natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce." It literally doesn't exist.

3. Why are you against the "confiscation" of a manmade "right" women have had for over 40 years, yet you are perfectly fine the confiscation of a natural right that we have had for over 200 years?

 Of course we all have the natural rights to privacy, and to decide what to do with our lives.  And I do not support "confiscation" of guns.   Indeed, my purpose in commenting on this thread is to point out that the Constitution's protection of your natural right to individual self-defense is as fragile as the abortion right, and needs to be codified.   The natural right is not addressed by the 2A - its protection derives from Heller.     
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goodwithagun on March 01, 2018, 02:42:50 pm
Of course we all have the natural rights to privacy, and to decide what to do with our lives.  And I do not support "confiscation" of guns.   Indeed, my purpose in commenting on this thread is to point out that the Constitution's protection of your natural right to individual self-defense is as fragile as the abortion right, and needs to be codified.   The natural right is not addressed by the 2A - its protection derives from Heller.   

Where do we have the natural right to privacy, and what does privacy have to do with infanticide?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:44:07 pm
So if a gay customer wanted to buy a semiauto from Dicks and they refused then Dick's would be guilty of something, but if a straight customer wanted to buy a semiauto and were denied Dicks is innocent of any wrongdoing?

No.   *****rollingeyes*****  Dick's doesn't sell semi -autos to anyone - that's its choice.   The baker could likewise choose to not sell wedding cakes.  But he does - and by advertising such service is obliged to conform to the community's requirement that he not discriminate.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 02:49:40 pm
No.   *****rollingeyes*****  Dick's doesn't sell semi -autos to anyone - that's its choice.   The baker could likewise choose to not sell wedding cakes.  But he does - and by advertising such service is obliged to conform to the community's requirement that he not discriminate.


What about the decision Walmart made to sell rifles and ammo to people 21 and over, when the law says you can purchase certain items at 18?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: SZonian on March 01, 2018, 02:55:56 pm
What in your view are appropriate and practical due process protections that you would find acceptable in a GVRO bill?   Are there any current examples of current or proposed GVRO legislation that you would recommend as models?   

Let's look at Nikolas Cruz.   Police are tipped regarding his statements on social media, and have other knowledge of past violent incidents where police had to come to the door.   The police bring the complaint,  backed up by the foregoing evidence.  Cruz is permitted to defend himself before the judge.   The judge then rules, and strips him of his guns for, say, 90 days subject to a rehearing and reconsideration.   17 lives are saved.   Is the foregoing sufficient due process for you?
Still going on about how the government is capable of doing its damned job?

There are many other problems that need correcting before this...such as the egregious agreement the school had that prevented/encouraged them from notifying the police about troubled kids due to their skin color.

Shit man, the evidence of their failures is there for all to see...and you still propose that government is the solution.  SMDH
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:56:09 pm

What about the decision Walmart made to sell rifles and ammo to people 21 and over, when the law says you can purchase certain items at 18?

The law says you can purchase a rifle at 18; it doesn't forbid a seller from imposing a more stringent age requirement.   Age in this context isn't a protected characteristic like race, gender and (in some places) sexual orientation.   Walmart could lawfully, believe it or not, refuse to sell guns to liberals.  Political ideology likewise isn't a protected characteristic.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 02:57:52 pm
Still going on about how the government is capable of doing its damned job?

There are many other problems that need correcting before this...such as the egregious agreement the school had that prevented/encouraged them from notifying the police about troubled kids due to their skin color.

Shit man, the evidence of their failures is there for all to see...and you still propose that government is the solution.  SMDH

A GVRO is a tool that has substantial merit provided an accused has appropriate due process protections.  It could well have prevented the Parkland murders.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 02:59:34 pm

What about the decision Walmart made to sell rifles and ammo to people 21 and over, when the law says you can purchase certain items at 18?

Interesting if someone will take it up as an age discrimination case.

If they decide in general folks over 70 tend to have reduced mental judgment and ban selling the same products to them, would it be viewed differently?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GrouchoTex on March 01, 2018, 03:11:13 pm

What about the decision Walmart made to sell rifles and ammo to people 21 and over, when the law says you can purchase certain items at 18?

Correct, which would be age discrimination, which @Jazzhead says is wrong.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 03:16:25 pm
Correct, which would be age discrimination, which @Jazzhead says is wrong.

Age discrimination is prescribed with respect to employment ;  I do not believe age is a protected classification with respect to discrimination by a public accommodation.  Even if it is, the protection would extend to older individuals, not younger ones.   Any business can choose to sell its wares only to persons over the age of 21,  I believe. 

If I'm mistaken, I'm sure someone will point that out.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 03:18:01 pm
There likely wasn't.   It takes more to incarcerate an individual than pointing to crazy postings on the internet.  But, with due process, a GVRO law could have stripped him of his weapons of mass murder.

You assume far too much.

First, you take his guns and piss him off.
You better take his money too, or he'll just go get another. What then?
And you'd better hope you got all his guns in the first place.  I know you wouldn't get all of mine.  In fact, you wouldn't even get half of mine. more like a quarter, and that's supposing you find em all here, which isn't likely.

And what is there to stop him from waiting the 90 days, getting his guns back,  and doing it ANYWAY? What stops him from targeting another gun owner and stealing his guns? If he is willing to step off and kill 20 people, he'll get it done, by hook or by crook.

You aren't making a damn thing better. In fact you are likely to make it worse.

and in the meantime, the new laws will metastasize, and be used as a weapon against citizens.
Foolish nanny state bastards .
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 03:18:23 pm
Interesting if someone will take it up as an age discrimination case.

If they decide in general folks over 70 tend to have reduced mental judgment and ban selling the same products to them, would it be viewed differently?

I don't think so,  but I don't claim to be 100% sure.   I believe that age is a protected characteristic with respect to employment, not service by a public accommodation.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 03:21:04 pm
You assume far too much.

First, you take his guns and piss him off.
You better take his money too, or he'll just go get another. What then?
And you'd better hope you got all his guns in the first place.  I know you wouldn't get all of mine.  In fact, you wouldn't even get half of mine. more like a quarter, and that's supposing you find em all here, which isn't likely.

And what is there to stop him from waiting the 90 days, getting his guns back,  and doing it ANYWAY? What stops him from targeting another gun owner and stealing his guns? If he is willing to step off and kill 20 people, he'll get it done, by hook or by crook.

You aren't making a damn thing better. In fact you are likely to make it worse.

and in the meantime, the new laws will metastasize, and be used as a weapon against citizens.
Foolish nanny state bastards .

You assume too much too, roamer.  A GVRO could just as likely have prevented these murders.  Knowing he's under scrutiny, Cruz may well have behaved.   We're not all angry anarchists like you. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 03:21:12 pm
I don't think so,  but I don't claim to be 100% sure.   I believe that age is a protected characteristic with respect to employment, not service by a public accommodation.

I agree no criminal act as it is not employment, but I wonder how it would be viewed by the same folks pushing the 21 requirement.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 03:21:26 pm

2. There is no "natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce." It literally doesn't exist.

Well that isn't entirely true.  I hear that aspirin is a remarkable preventative when held tightly between the knees...
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 03:22:22 pm
You assume too much too, roamer.  A GVRO could just as likely have prevented these murders.  Knowing he's under scrutiny, Cruz may well have behaved.   We're not all angry anarchists like you.

Like he did after dozens of visits by authorities?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Free Vulcan on March 01, 2018, 03:24:19 pm
The law says you can purchase a rifle at 18; it doesn't forbid a seller from imposing a more stringent age requirement.   Age in this context isn't a protected characteristic like race, gender and (in some places) sexual orientation.   Walmart could lawfully, believe it or not, refuse to sell guns to liberals.  Political ideology likewise isn't a protected characteristic.

So in other words, you believe in selective protections under the Constitution, which ones are decided by the FedGov, dividing us into first and second class citizens.

Which is a dodge and shuffle. Just because it's not a 'protected class' doesn't give the right for a business to go beyond the law. No 'protected status' clause for obeying the law exists.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: musiclady on March 01, 2018, 03:36:02 pm
1. There was never any denial from the prolife movement that we want an end to infanticide.

2. There is no "natural right of a woman to decide for herself whether to reproduce." It literally doesn't exist.

3. Why are you against the "confiscation" of a manmade "right" women have had for over 40 years, yet you are perfectly fine the confiscation of a natural right that we have had for over 200 years?

@goodwithagun

It is fruitless to try to be rational with @Jazzhead about abortion.   He is brainwashed by the left on this topic, and refuses to defend the rights of the helpless babies slaughtered by this made-up 'right' of leftist eugenicists.  Mind-numbed, all the while claiming he is more enlightened than we are.

And be careful......... after a while, he'll start saying you want women to be "chattel" because you want to stop infanticide.

Just wait.... 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 03:38:15 pm
Like he did after dozens of visits by authorities?

We can't know with certainty.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from it and try to plug the gaps in the system that might have prevented the murders.   A GVRO is a useful tool, same as a gun itself.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 03:42:17 pm
@goodwithagun

  He is brainwashed by the left on this topic, and refuses to defend the rights of the helpless babies

Come on, ML.  I've said time and again that I believe abortion is morally wrong.  But I haven't the right or the authority, and neither does the government, to impose my morality on another.

Persuasion, not coercion, is the answer. 

Why are you so insecure in your beliefs to think that persuasion can't work?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 03:44:22 pm
You assume too much too, roamer.  A GVRO could just as likely have prevented these murders.  Knowing he's under scrutiny, Cruz may well have behaved.   We're not all angry anarchists like you.

LOL! yeah right. A guy willing to break a whole passel of felony laws and kill a ton of people is going to suddenly straighten up and fly right. Not going to happen. Murder in the soul doesn't just up and quit.

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GrouchoTex on March 01, 2018, 03:48:00 pm
Come on, ML.  I've said time and again that I believe abortion is morally wrong.  But I haven't the right or the authority, and neither does the government, to impose my morality on another.

Persuasion, not coercion, is the answer. 

Why are you so insecure in your beliefs to think that persuasion can't work?   

If you are correct, you haven't the right to stop or the authority,to  curtail, legislate, regulate, license, ban, etc., to do anything, about ANY THING.
So why are firearms so heavy on your radar screen?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 03:51:35 pm
We can't know with certainty.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from it and try to plug the gaps in the system that might have prevented the murders.   A GVRO is a useful tool, same as a gun itself.

Riight. Because thought police. No actual crime committed. Not enough evidence to prove intent. But an accusation and a shrink, and they can take all your crap.

Yeah. That won't be abused.
 *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: musiclady on March 01, 2018, 03:52:41 pm
Come on, ML.  I've said time and again that I believe abortion is morally wrong.  But I haven't the right or the authority, and neither does the government, to impose my morality on another.

Persuasion, not coercion, is the answer. 

Why are you so insecure in your beliefs to think that persuasion can't work?   

A person who actually believes that abortion is morally wrong doesn't spend so much time defending an imaginary "right" for a mother to slaughter her baby.

What you regurgitate over and over on this thread is leftist tripe, leftist lies, fed to you by the left.

They have concocted the faux argument that "I am against abortion, but support a woman's right to it" and you have fallen for it.

Come on Jazzhead.  Try being honest with yourself for once.  My beliefs are very secure.  Yours are imaginary and distorted beyond human reason.

You believe it's wrong to kill babies, but argue ad nauseam that killing babies is a "right"????

NO one with a functioning brain cell falls for your garbage arguments.

But nice hijack from INVAR's thread topic.   *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 04:00:35 pm
A GVRO is a tool that has substantial merit provided an accused has appropriate due process protections.  It could well have prevented the Parkland murders.   

Go figure an attorney would defend such crap.

Your precious GVOR does absolutely nothing if the law enforcement officers who hand it out fail to enforce it.

There were something like 49 different complaints about Cruz filed to include with the FBI.  The school knew he was dangerous and forbid him to carry a backpack on campus because last year they found him carrying bullets on campus.

There were multiple times law enforcement could have stepped in and prevented what happened in Florida and they failed.

And yet your magic solution is a police issued GVRO.

 *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 04:02:11 pm
Riight. Because thought police. No actual crime committed. Not enough evidence to prove intent. But an accusation and a shrink, and they can take all your crap.

Yeah. That won't be abused.
 *****rollingeyes*****

@roamer_1 I guess he's never heard of "Swatting"...this would be swatting on steroids.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 04:09:00 pm
If you are correct, you haven't the right to stop or the authority,to  curtail, legislate, regulate, license, ban, etc., to do anything, about ANY THING.
So why are firearms so heavy on your radar screen?

I feel the more or less the same way with respect to the gun right and the abortion right.  Each is subject to reasonable regulation.   For example, I support a ban on partial birth abortions.  And while I don't support a ban on "assault" weapons,  if you acknowledge that a ban on partial birth abortions is constitutional, than it is likewise constitutional to ban certain classes of firearms.  You can regulate the right, so long as you don't effectively deny it. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 04:11:50 pm
I feel the more or less the same way with respect to the gun right and the abortion right.  Each is subject to reasonable regulation.   For example, I support a ban on partial birth abortions.  And while I don't support a ban on "assault" weapons,  if you acknowledge that a ban on partial birth abortions is constitutional, than it is likewise constitutional to ban certain classes of firearms.  You can regulate the right, so long as you don't effectively deny it.

@Jazzhead
Where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights is the Federal Government restricted from regulating or prohibiting abortions?

Whereas the 'shall not infringe' of firearms is clearly stated.

Why do you persist in making these false analogies?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 04:12:24 pm
@roamer_1 I guess he's never heard of "Swatting"...this would be swatting on steroids.

@txradioguy

All I can think of is my rather fractious divorce, and my ex trying every damn trick in the book to destroy me. I mean literally destroy me. I know for a near fact that she would have taken full advantage of this sort of thing.  Hell, she might take advantage of it even yet.  *****rollingeyes*****
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 04:14:51 pm
Come on, ML.  I've said time and again that I believe abortion is morally wrong.  But I haven't the right or the authority, and neither does the government, to impose my morality on another.

Persuasion, not coercion, is the answer. 

Why are you so insecure in your beliefs to think that persuasion can't work? 

Would you apply the same position to the topic of the thread?  I hate to further the distraction from gun control laws of the thread, but are we not both trying to prevent the slaughter of the innocent?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 04:25:34 pm
@txradioguy

All I can think of is my rather fractious divorce, and my ex trying every damn trick in the book to destroy me. I mean literally destroy me. I know for a near fact that she would have taken full advantage of this sort of thing.  Hell, she might take advantage of it even yet.  *****rollingeyes*****

And lawyers egging them on.

Ripe for abuse which is what the gun banners want.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 05:05:11 pm
And lawyers egging them on.

Ripe for abuse which is what the gun banners want.

Yep that's right - and not only wrt guns. This sets a horrid precedent.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 05:21:13 pm
@txradioguy

All I can think of is my rather fractious divorce, and my ex trying every damn trick in the book to destroy me. I mean literally destroy me. I know for a near fact that she would have taken full advantage of this sort of thing.  Hell, she might take advantage of it even yet.  *****rollingeyes*****

BTDT...had my ex falsely accuse me of spousal abuse back in '99.

When it came down to brass tacks I was the one that produced an abuse complaint I'd filed against her and she got proven to be a liar in open court.

But with today's proposals they'd have taken any gun I owned just on her false accusations.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Suppressed on March 01, 2018, 05:26:40 pm
Where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights is the Federal Government restricted from regulating or prohibiting abortions?
@driftdiver

Code: [Select]
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Every conservative should be aware of that amendment.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 05:46:21 pm
Would you apply the same position to the topic of the thread?  I hate to further the distraction from gun control laws of the thread, but are we not both trying to prevent the slaughter of the innocent?

Not sure what you're getting at, thackney.   I think what I've said is consistent - both the gun right and the abortion right is subject to reasonable regulation.   But neither the abortion right nor the gun right can be effectively denied by government.   

The audience here of pro-lifers want abortion banned, period.   To that I say -  don't enlist the government to impose your morality on women faced with a true question of conscience.   If there's anyone here who wants firearms banned,  I'm not aware of it.   But I guess the response would be analogous -  don't enlist the government to impose your view that we don't have the right to defend ourselves with the most appropriate tool available.    If you choose to not own a gun, then solid.  But what's right for you may not be right for your neighbor, and you're not the boss of him.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 05:47:00 pm
BTDT...had my ex falsely accuse me of spousal abuse back in '99.


@txradioguy
Same '12. Never laid a bruise on her or any of the kids. I was all stove up in a wheelchair at the time, and literally couldn't throw a punch that would matter.  Turtles moved faster than I could.

Her say-so was all there was, and still that was enough for a restraining order and 6 friggin months with a court appointed shrink, on my dime. Still, after he drug about 2k outta my butt, the shrink finally said the charge was frivolous, which I take it to mean a damn lie. So no fault no foul, right?  *****rollingeyes*****

Other than 2 thousand bucks, my time for 2 sessions a week (three to begin with) for six months, a contempt charge (because I wouldn't take the drugs the shrink said I needed early on), a weekend in the can, not seeing my kids for all that time, and only with supervision for two months even after I was cleared (protocols), my ex in the catbird seat for custody issues, and CSED enumerating the charge in filings thereafter, even though I was cleared, to justify a whole bunch more BS.

And people wonder why I don't trust the sonsabiches.  9999hair out0000

Quote
But with today's proposals they'd have taken any gun I owned just on her false accusations.

Like I said, I am near certain my ex would have done the same.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Suppressed on March 01, 2018, 05:50:14 pm
But neither the abortion right nor the gun right can be effectively denied by government.   

Tenth amendment said, "Butt out, Feds...you have no power here...!"

The fourteenth amendment has been a blessing and a curse, eh?


Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 05:51:44 pm
Same '12. Never laid a bruise on her or any of the kids. I was all stove up in a wheelchair at the time, and literally couldn't throw a punch that would matter.  Turtles moved faster than I could.

Her say-so was all there was, and still that was enough for a restraining order and 6 friggin months with a court appointed shrink, on my dime. Still, after he drug about 2k outta my butt, the shrink finally said the charge was frivolous, which I take it to mean a damn lie. So no fault no foul, right?  *****rollingeyes*****

Other than 2 thousand bucks, my time for 2 sessions a week (three to begin with) for six months, a contempt charge (because I wouldn't take the drugs the shrink said I needed early on), a weekend in the can, not seeing my kids for all that time, and only with supervision for two months even after I was cleared (protocols), my ex in the catbird seat for custody issues, and CSED enumerating the charge in filings thereafter, even though I was cleared, to justify a whole bunch more BS.

And people wonder why I don't trust the sonsabiches.  9999hair out0000

Like I said, I am near certain my ex would have done the same.

Not all charges of domestic abuse are false.  We all know, my gentle friend who brags of an arsenal large enough to start a small war, that you'd never harm a fly.   But what of your neighbor who beats the crap out of his spouse and kids?   Should he be permitted to possess a firearm?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 05:53:56 pm
Tenth amendment said, "Butt out, Feds...you have no power here...!"

The fourteenth amendment has been a blessing and a curse, eh?

They're not that difficult to reconcile.  States can regulate activities and grant or deny valuable rights and benefits, but not in a way that violates the 14th's guarantee of the equal protection of the law.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 05:57:18 pm
Not all charges of domestic abuse are false.  We all know, my gentle friend who brags of an arsenal large enough to start a small war, that you'd never harm a fly.   But what of your neighbor who beats the crap out of his spouse and kids?   Should he be permitted to possess a firearm?

First year law hypothetical situations mean squat in the real world.

Something you seem very detached from when it comes to things like this.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 05:57:38 pm
Not all charges of domestic abuse are false.  We all know, my gentle friend who brags of an arsenal large enough to start a small war, that you'd never harm a fly.   But what of your neighbor who beats the crap out of his spouse and kids?   Should he be permitted to possess a firearm?

@Jazzhead
Perhaps he should be in jail???    Or maybe just maybe his wife should have a gun so she can stop the beatings?

I know thats shocking to a liberal.  Allowing a person to continue harming other people is not a solution.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 05:59:10 pm
@driftdiver

Code: [Select]
Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Every conservative should be aware of that amendment.

@Suppressed

Yeah most conservatives are, its the liberals that ignore that one.

But we were talking actions of the feds.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 05:59:55 pm
@Jazzhead
Perhaps he should be in jail???    Or maybe just maybe his wife should have a gun so she can stop the beatings?

I know thats shocking to a liberal.  Allowing a person to continue harming other people is not a solution.

Bingo, the gun angle here is just a distraction to the actual problem.  He is causing her harm already.  He is the danger, not the tool he selects each incident.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:00:24 pm
Not all charges of domestic abuse are false.  We all know, my gentle friend who brags of an arsenal large enough to start a small war, that you'd never harm a fly.

I never said any such thing. In fact, I have fewer guns than most around here.   

Quote
But what of your neighbor who beats the crap out of his spouse and kids?   Should he be permitted to possess a firearm?

Unless there are felonious charges , OF COURSE. How the hell is he to provide for them without guns?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 06:01:25 pm
And so the red vs. blue divide deepens,  and folks like INVAR call for war.

That is ALL you need to know and understand, being the outright enemy of liberty that you repeatedly demonstrate that you are.

All your insidious arguments and "living Constitution' Bullshit is just battlefield prep for you and your leftist Comrades.   The gun abolition movement is just going to spearhead the Advance columns.  We will not compromise any further with you or them, because the end-game is civilian disarmament, DESPITE whatever stupid cover you want to assign yourself.

Like I warned you before - we're done discussing and reasoning with you people.  When the agents of tyranny you empower come to enforce all these grandiose ideas of yours - you will have bought yourself a war.

Consider yourself warned in advance because evidently you have reasoned away the implicit warning against such efforts in the 2nd Amendment's very existence.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 06:03:15 pm
First year law hypothetical situations mean squat in the real world.

Something you seem very detached from when it comes to things like this.

Hypothetical?  In the real world, some folks really do beat the crap out of their wife and kids.   What's the remedy?   Are you so protective of this goon's gun rights that you'd oppose any attempt to take them away?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Suppressed on March 01, 2018, 06:04:30 pm
@Suppressed

Yeah most conservatives are, its the liberals that ignore that one.

But we were talking actions of the feds.

The Feds have no direct business in abortion, by the tenth amendment.  But under the fourteenth, they can step in and say that the states have no right to restrict.

IANAL.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 06:10:51 pm
Hypothetical?  In the real world, some folks really do beat the crap out of their wife and kids.

And the vast majority of the 320 million people in this country do not do that.

Not that it matters to you.

You want to take that 1% and punish the 99% for the actions of a few bad actors. 



Quote
What's the remedy?



How about enforcing the laws already on the books.  That's a subject counselor that you always purposely dance away from when asked about it.


The answer is most definitely NOT trampling all over the Constitution.

Quote
Are you so protective of this goon's gun rights that you'd oppose any attempt to take them away?   

I'm protective of EVERYONE's rights under the Constitution.  I'm also a big fan of due process.

Tell me have you ever litigated in a courtroom?  Or are you one of those that's only argued cases in a class room or board room?

You don't sound like...from all of your theoretical BS and classroom hypotheticals...that you've had much time as a defense or a prosecuting attorney.

Just sayin...

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:13:12 pm
Hypothetical?  In the real world, some folks really do beat the crap out of their wife and kids.   What's the remedy?   Are you so protective of this goon's gun rights that you'd oppose any attempt to take them away?   

If he ain't in the pokey, and she ain't shot him dead, and she is still with him, what business is it of yours?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 06:14:49 pm
Hypothetical?  In the real world, some folks really do beat the crap out of their wife and kids.   What's the remedy?   Are you so protective of this goon's gun rights that you'd oppose any attempt to take them away?   

We know that with Tyranny advocates like you, confiscation starts with listing classes of behaviors and peoples who should have their property confiscated for the safety of the community.  And then, in short order once you have achieved the precedent - you start expanding your list arbitrarily - and then things like the FBI's 2009 Domestic Terrorism Assessment paper are used as justification to start confiscation from the groups and peoples THE GOVERNMENT has of itself stated are a threat to public safety by their existence while lobbyists like you and SPLC petition bureaucrats to add more names and peoples to the list.

We are protective of our inalienable right to arms to the point that we reject outright, any suggestion or remedy people like you come up with from this point forward.  We are done discussing remedies.  If the existing miasma of laws and regulations were not enough for Authorities to stop the nutjob in Florida, no further regulations or schemes of yours are going to make any difference either.

Just understand, we are not going to comply with any further efforts being made to give yourselves the illusion of safety and security.

You will need guns to put to our heads to force compliance with your ideas and plans - and at that point as I have warned you - you will have bought yourself a war.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:15:56 pm
   What's the remedy? 

And btw, who says there IS a remedy? Often times there ain't. Shit happens.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 06:16:05 pm
And the vast majority of the 320 million people in this country do not do that.

Not that it matters to you.

You want to take that 1% and punish the 99% for the actions of a few bad actors. 

That's the appeal of a GVRO.  It punishes the bad actors by taking away the tools that can amplify their violence.   It doesn't punish the good guys.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:22:18 pm
That's the appeal of a GVRO.  It punishes the bad actors by taking away the tools that can amplify their violence.

Except, no, it really doesn't.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Idiot on March 01, 2018, 06:24:00 pm
And btw, who says there IS a remedy? Often times there ain't. Shit happens.
:amen:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 06:30:20 pm
And btw, who says there IS a remedy? Often times there ain't. Shit happens.

No, there actually IS a remedy.

Preventing nut jobs with guns or tyrants with guns doing harm, are a liberty-minded people armed with guns and the resolve and skill to use them to put down the nut jobs and tyrants when they act as they are wont to do.

Problems solved.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 06:33:17 pm
That's the appeal of a GVRO.  It punishes the bad actors by taking away the tools that can amplify their violence.   It doesn't punish the good guys.   

Do you know how many people issued a GVRO walk right through them every year and kill the people they are designed to protect?

Again...maybe if you got out of the classroom and into the real world you'd understand just how ineffective what you're proposing is in reality.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 06:33:53 pm
Quote
The National Violence Against Women survey (NVAW, p. 52) found that approximately one-half of the protection orders women took out against males were known to have been violated and nearly one-third of the orders men had against women were basically ignored.

Several other studies also suggest that, despite their widespread use, protection orders have little, if any, protective effect. Cathy Young quotes: "A 1984 study by Janice Grau, Jeffrey Fagan, and Sandra Wexler has concluded that the orders have a protective effect for women who were not severely victimized in the first place. If so, peddling them to women in real danger is like giving cancer patients aspirin."

Incredibly, the Equal Justice Foundation has never encountered a case where a protection order provided any documented level of protection, or even anecdotes about how a protection order made a woman safe. And we hear from many women on this issue (see In Women's Own Words).

http://www.dvmen.org/dv-14.htm (http://www.dvmen.org/dv-14.htm)




Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Frank Cannon on March 01, 2018, 06:36:05 pm
I think it is funny that you guys wasted 4 pages discussing what some unemployed Marxist said in a Maine low circulation circular as though it was something real and serious.

Got a lot of time on your hands I guess. Bully for you.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:37:18 pm
But what of your neighbor who beats the crap out of his spouse and kids?   Should he be permitted to possess a firearm?

I will ask again, @Jazzhead , How is he to provide for them without guns? How does he keep predators off his chickens and livestock?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 06:38:39 pm
Quote
Our position is that we don’t need more laws and we don’t need GVROs to tackle these issues. As even Governor Brown said in a 2015 veto message, “California’s criminal code has grown to more than 5,000 separate provisions, covering almost every conceivable form of human misbehavior.”

No one knows that better than we law-abiding gun owners and advocates do.

Murder, manslaughter, and assault are crimes that are illegal everywhere. If a state doesn’t have adequate or appropriate mental health codes, then they should address that problem. But GVROs are an ineffective way to deal with mental health, because they don’t. And they don’t address the fundamental problems inherent to violent criminals, either. The bottom line is,that there were plenty of legal ways to deal with criminals and mentally unstable people before GVROs. So, not only are GVROs ineffective, they were totally unnecessary.


<snip>

This GVRO issue is really a never-ending battle. Once the framework is in place, they will never stop adding to it. Just two years after they passed AB 1014, Assemblymember Phil Ting (D – San Francisco) authored and passed AB 2607, which would have vastly expanded the number and kind of people who could petition for a GVRO to take away someone’s guns, ammunition, and Second Amendment rights.

<snip>


https://www.redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2018/02/24/exclusive-interview-gun-policy-expert-brandon-combs/ (https://www.redstate.com/jenvanlaar/2018/02/24/exclusive-interview-gun-policy-expert-brandon-combs/)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 06:40:16 pm
I will ask again, @Jazzhead , How is he to provide for them without guns?

Er, get a job? 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 06:44:46 pm
I think it is funny that you guys wasted 4 pages discussing what some unemployed Marxist said in a Maine low circulation circular as though it was something real and serious.

Ignoring stupid tyrant-wannabe Marxists with visions of grandeur publishing their ideas as vehicles for government-policy will result in being conquered and subjugated by the same wannabe tyrant Marxists.

Discussing it and venting about it in 4 pages on a forum is a whole lot more preferable than what will be wasted in the near future by refusing to point out what these shit-bleep are wanting to do.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 06:46:24 pm
Er, get a job?

@roamer_1 he doesn't get what you're asking.

 :silly:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Frank Cannon on March 01, 2018, 06:47:54 pm
Ignoring stupid tyrant-wannabe Marxists with visions of grandeur publishing their ideas as vehicles for government-policy will result in being conquered and subjugated by the same wannabe tyrant Marxists.

Discussing it and venting about it in 4 pages on a forum is a whole lot more preferable than what will be wasted in the near future by refusing to point out what these shit-bleep are wanting to do.

This Commie boilerplate anti gun bullshit has been submitted in op eds for generations. It still as laughable today as it was when I was reading it in the late 70's in my local papers.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Frank Cannon on March 01, 2018, 06:49:06 pm
Er, get a job?

Congratulations. Once again you win the "Stupidest Poster" award. That's almost a year straight for you.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 01, 2018, 06:49:58 pm
This Commie boilerplate anti gun bullshit has been submitted in op eds for generations. It still as laughable today as it was when I was reading it in the late 70's in my local papers.

The problem goes far beyond the Op Ed pages.

Vermont Senate unanimously approves gun confiscation bill
http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182 (http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/news/vermont-senate-unanimously-approves-gun-confiscation-bill/998951182)
 Feb 28, 2018

Gun Confiscation Bill Passes Oregon House
http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house (http://www.oregonfirearms.org/gun-confiscation-bill-passes-oregon-house)
02.15.18

Let's Be Honest, The Latest Gun Control Bill Is Pretty Much A Total Ban On Firearms
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670 (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2018/02/27/house-introduces-gun-ban-legislation-n2454670)
Feb 27, 2018
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:52:33 pm
Er, get a job?

You really don't have any idea. The level of ignorance is stunning.

So screw the farm, screw the livestock, screw the hunting. screw his home, screw the garden, and his main source of subsistence. Because that is what you do by taking his guns.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 06:54:32 pm
@roamer_1 he doesn't get what you're asking.

 :silly:

@txradioguy
Not a single dang clue. That's why city folks 2000 miles away have no business dictating anything.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 06:55:16 pm
This Commie boilerplate anti gun bullshit has been submitted in op eds for generations. It still as laughable today as it was when I was reading it in the late 70's in my local papers.

I know you like to laugh Frank, and frankly Frank - we all like to laugh.   However, I think we made the mistake of just laughing at the Commie-puke hippie bastards and their ideas for society when they ranted about it all back then.  We laughed in ridicule while refusing to take them seriously as the True Believers they were.

Now look at society as a result of simply laughing at them.

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 07:04:57 pm
@roamer_1 he doesn't get what you're asking.

 :silly:

It was an attempt at humor.   *****rollingeyes*****

(Yes, roamer, I understand that you have to protect your chickens)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 07:11:31 pm
(Yes, roamer, I understand that you have to protect your chickens)

So a family already under stress and having problems, how does it help anything to take food out of their mouths?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 07:13:40 pm
So a family already under stress and having problems, how does it help anything to take food out of their mouths?

They can get government assistance /s
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 07:15:43 pm
They can get government assistance /s

Wheeee!  *****rollingeyes***** **nononono*
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 07:16:34 pm
It is fascinating to consider how similar the pro-gun and pro-abortion extremists are.   Here's INVAR breathlessly shouting "they're coming for our guns!" on the basis of some crank opinion in a Maine newspaper.   Just as the pro-abortionists are convinced the true goal of the pro-life movement isn't regulation but abolishment of the abortion right, so does the pro-gun crowd convince itself that reasonable regulation of firearms is just cover for the true goal of confiscation.

Why is this?    The answer's pretty clear to me.   As I've explained elsewhere,  the natural, individual right to self-defense (that is, outside the context of providing for the civilian militia) isn't protected by the Second Amendment,  but by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.   The right to abortion is likewise not codified in the Constitution, but derives from the natural right of privacy as enunciated by a 5 - 4 Supreme Court decision.

In other words,  the right to abortion and the individual right to bear arms are both a product of the same "living Constitution" and just as fragile.   How many of us voted for Trump mainly because he promised to appoint conservative justices that, we hope, will overturn the right to abortion?   Well, the individual RKBA is just as susceptible to being lost on the decision of some future SCOTUS majority.   And the votes we - both right and left - cast for President are ground zero in ensuring the makeup of the courts that will secure the precious  rights we fear are most fragile. 

It is a situation that is fundmentally poisonous to our nation.   

The solution is to amend the Constitution to codify the individual RKBA.   Just as I've urged for years that the Constitution be amended to codify the right of privacy.   Whatever you may think of living Constitutions,  they have the perverse effect of polarizing our political culture.   For the left, it's all about saving abortion,  for the right, it's all about saving guns.  And so the red vs. blue divide deepens,  and folks like INVAR call for war.

That's bullshit.  The right to life, and therefore the protection of that life, is guaranteed by the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God".  Start codifying things and it allows the codification of someone's idea of what the acceptable limits of life and the protection of it should be.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 07:29:27 pm
That's bullshit.  The right to life, and therefore the protection of that life, is guaranteed by the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God".  Start codifying things and it allows the codification of someone's idea of what the acceptable limits of life and the protection of it should be.

Notice that he spouts the same Communist Claptrap about a "living Constitution" that they do, while he continues to insist he is some kind of Conservative, when he is anything but a Commie-Lib Pinko based on everything he has written on this board.

He continues to assert enumerated Rights are simply government-granted privileges that can be *reasonably regulated* at the whim of he and his Leftist legal hordes - while he continues to insist that "Rights" borne out of the ether of 'penumbras and emanations' are inviolable and supreme.

Jazzy doesn't support life or liberty, he supports death and slavery to despotic wickedness that has its own morality based on whatever courts have to rule.  He argues the legality and necessity of despotism while spewing a neo-statist morality that compels you to surrender your liberty for the sake of 'equality, safety and fairness' in the "community".
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 07:50:15 pm
Notice that he spouts the same Communist Claptrap about a "living Constitution" that they do, while he continues to insist he is some kind of Conservative, when he is anything but a Commie-Lib Pinko based on everything he has written on this board.

He continues to assert enumerated Rights are simply government-granted privileges that can be *reasonably regulated* at the whim of he and his Leftist legal hordes - while he continues to insist that "Rights" borne out of the ether of 'penumbras and emanations' are inviolable and supreme.

Jazzy doesn't support life or liberty, he supports death and slavery to despotic wickedness that has its own morality based on whatever courts have to rule.  He argues the legality and necessity of despotism while spewing a neo-statist morality that compels you to surrender your liberty for the sake of 'equality, safety and fairness' in the "community".

I know exactly what he is.  I don't respond to him for him, I respond to him for anyone that might be reading and believing his nonsense is a conservative position.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 07:57:23 pm
Notice that he spouts the same Communist Claptrap about a "living Constitution" that they do, ".

Be grateful for a "living Constitution" (and Justice Scalia).   It's what protects your individual RKBA.   No, not the Second Amendment, which under the view of strict Constitutional interpretation you favor, has nothing to do with the natural right of individual self defense.   

Scalia went out on a Constitutional limb to protect your RKBA, INVAR.  Be grateful to him - and mindful that your right hangs in the balance of a 5 -4 Court majority.   That's why I favor amending the Constitution to specifically codify the gun right as an individual right unrelated to any civilian militia.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 07:59:53 pm
I know exactly what he is.  I don't respond to him for him, I respond to him for anyone that might be reading and believing his nonsense is a conservative position.

Yes.  Hopefully few to none are that easily fooled.

That said, this is also why we love having Jazzy here as our resident Commie-Lib punching bag: It helps us sharpen the iron against what he and his Leftist comrades advocate.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 08:00:58 pm
I know exactly what he is.  I don't respond to him for him, I respond to him for anyone that might be reading and believing his nonsense is a conservative position.

Your position on this particular issue is less conservative than mine is, certainly in the sense that Justice Thomas would define the term.   Thomas would look alone to the plain text of the 2A, including the predicate clause.  You can't wish away that damn predicate clause.   That's why it is important to amend the Constitution to ensure the RKBA is an individual right. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 08:06:39 pm
Be grateful for a "living Constitution" (and Justice Scalia).   It's what protects your individual RKBA.   

Scalia went out on a Constitutional limb to protect your RKBA, INVAR.  Be grateful to him - and mindful that your right hangs in the balance of a 5 -4 Court majority.   

Only a Statist imbecile whose god is government actually is stupid enough to believe that my rights to KBA is dependent upon what some Judge in black robes has to say or write.

My right to arms does not rest on the balance of a 5-4 court.  My right to arms rests in my arms - and my willingness to use them in defense against anyone or any entity intent on infringing upon my liberty.  SCOTUS could rule tomorrow that all civilian guns must be banned and confiscated and it will no more be respected or followed than if a serial killer busted down my door in the middle of the night and ordered the same.  Hiding behind black robes under the false color of law does not disguise tyranny.  It will be resisted as vociferously as the intruder is.

No one protects my rights but me.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: skeeter on March 01, 2018, 08:27:54 pm
Only a Statist imbecile whose god is government actually is stupid enough to believe that my rights to KBA is dependent upon what some Judge in black robes has to say or write.

My right to arms does not rest on the balance of a 5-4 court.  My right to arms rests in my arms - and my willingness to use them in defense against anyone or any entity intent on infringing upon my liberty.  SCOTUS could rule tomorrow that all civilian guns must be banned and confiscated and it will no more be respected or followed than if a serial killer busted down my door in the middle of the night and ordered the same.  Hiding behind black robes under the false color of law does not disguise tyranny.  It will be resisted as vociferously as the intruder is.

No one protects my rights but me.

Most on this board understood perfectly well that our essential rights, as specifically spelled out in the Constitution, descend from our creator, and that the 2A exists for the express purpose of guaranteeing that no man, or court, take them away.

Anyone who doesn't understand this and base all of their policy positions from this axiom going forward is no conservative and shouldn't be bothered with. Unless you're bored and looking for something to do.

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 08:41:08 pm
Most on this board understood perfectly well that our essential rights, as specifically spelled out in the Constitution, descend from our creator, and that the 2A exists for the express purpose of guaranteeing that no man, or court, take them away.


So Justice Scalia isn't a conservative?   My views are similar to his, and I fully support the Heller decision.

Look, shove your head in the sand if you want.  But the 2A does not protect your individual right to bear arms in self defense.  The Heller decision does.   And that decision is as fragile as Roe v. Wade, because it based on similar principles of Constitutional interpretation.   It is fragile because the political left hates Heller and wants to elect a President who'll change the composition of the Court to overturn that decision. 

Look, insult me all you want - you're only displaying your own myopia.   The reality is that the individual RKBA hangs by a thread, and the number one priority of anyone who cares about the right should be to work for an amendment to the Constitution to codify the right's protection. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 08:43:06 pm
Your position on this particular issue is less conservative than mine is, certainly in the sense that Justice Thomas would define the term.   Thomas would look alone to the plain text of the 2A, including the predicate clause.  You can't wish away that damn predicate clause.   That's why it is important to amend the Constitution to ensure the RKBA is an individual right.

Do you think we give a flying bleep what some black robed judge, no matter what his name is, has to say about us being able to defend ourselves and our families?  Your position on some government appointee telling me what my freedoms are is in no way conservative; I don't know who you think you're trying to fool with your bullshit, but rest assured it will not be me.  My freedoms are spelled out in ink and those words do no and never have changed.

Let's just say I believe your theory that 2A is intended only to cover a gov't militia.  All that means is that individual ownership of firearms is not addressed in the Constitution and therefore making laws that prohibit ownership is not an enumerated power of FedGov.  It would be left to the individual States to establish gun laws.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 08:45:27 pm
Only a Statist imbecile whose god is government actually is stupid enough to believe that my rights to KBA is dependent upon what some Judge in black robes has to say or write.

My right to arms does not rest on the balance of a 5-4 court.  My right to arms rests in my arms - and my willingness to use them in defense against anyone or any entity intent on infringing upon my liberty.  SCOTUS could rule tomorrow that all civilian guns must be banned and confiscated and it will no more be respected or followed than if a serial killer busted down my door in the middle of the night and ordered the same.  Hiding behind black robes under the false color of law does not disguise tyranny.  It will be resisted as vociferously as the intruder is.

No one protects my rights but me.

We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a tyranny.   If you choose to ignore the laws enacted by the peoples' elective representatives, then you have chosen to be a lawbreaker and to expose yourself to the community's police power.   If the firefight you lust for then ensues,  I trust you're right about your faith walk and will join your Maker.     
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 08:47:49 pm
We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a tyranny.   If you choose to ignore the laws enacted by the peoples' elective representatives, then you have chosen to be a lawbreaker and to expose yourself to the community's police power.   

That is really rich coming from you.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 08:48:13 pm

Let's just say I believe your theory that 2A is intended only to cover a gov't militia.  All that means is that individual ownership of firearms is not addressed in the Constitution and therefore making laws that prohibit ownership is not an enumerated power of FedGov.  It would be left to the individual States to establish gun laws.

Most gun laws are in fact established at the state level.

And would you obey those laws or offer armed resistance?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 08:50:48 pm
That is really rich coming from you.

@txradioguy
Its amazing how selective some people are about the law.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 01, 2018, 08:51:28 pm
Most on this board understood perfectly well that our essential rights, as specifically spelled out in the Constitution, descend from our creator, and that the 2A exists for the express purpose of guaranteeing that no man, or court, take them away.

Anyone who doesn't understand this and base all of their policy positions from this axiom going forward is no conservative and shouldn't be bothered with. Unless you're bored and looking for something to do.

For Jazzy it's worse than that:  Our rights are not spelled out on parchment, it's whatever the courts say they are.  That will change daily.  I think of him as a "Judicial Supremacist."  The Constitution is irrelevant.  The Bible is irrelevant.  Statutes are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what the highest Judge to rule on something has to say about it, and that only matters until it doesn't.

As for bothering with people, Jazz doesn't bother with me.  I'm no fun, I have his number.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 08:57:50 pm
@txradioguy
Its amazing how selective some people are about the law.

Yup.  He shifts his position based on whether the law passed by the people agrees with or is in direct contention with his particular Liberal position on any issue.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 09:02:42 pm
As for bothering with people, Jazz doesn't bother with me.  I'm no fun, I have his number.


Is it 867-5309?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 01, 2018, 09:10:05 pm

Is it 867-5309?

Yeah.  To his boyfriends he goes by the name, "Jenny."
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 09:10:58 pm
Yup.  He shifts his position based on whether the law passed by the people agrees with or is in direct contention with his particular Liberal position on any issue.

Example, please? 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 09:13:10 pm
The Constitution is irrelevant. 

The Constitution is very relevant.  But the 2A, facially, doesn't protect the individual right.  How do you explain away the predicate clause, Mr. Strict Constructionist?   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 09:13:20 pm
Example, please?

@Jazzhead @txradioguy
Cake, gay marriage, abortion, gun control, immigration, taxation, probably several more but those are the first ones that come to mind.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 09:15:32 pm
The Constitution is very relevant.  But the 2A, facially, doesn't protect the individual right.  How do you explain away the predicate clause, Mr. Strict Constructionist?   

@Jazzhead   @Cyber Liberty
The intent of the 2A is clearly supported by the writings of the people that wrote it.   They stated their intent and belief that an armed populace was necessary for a free populace.

The Constitution doesn't give us the right, it protects it from Government interference.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 09:15:44 pm
We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a tyranny.   If you choose to ignore the laws enacted by the peoples' elective representatives, then you have chosen to be a lawbreaker and to expose yourself to the community's police power.   

Oh that is quite the other way around. Your 'community's police power' will be exposed to me... And 100m other fellers.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 09:15:52 pm
The only thing that matters is what the highest Judge to rule on something has to say about it, and that only matters until it doesn't.

That's the problem with a living Constitution.  That's why the Constitution needs to be amended to specifically protect the individual right, so it isn't taken away when the Dems next take the Presidency and can appoint their folks to the SCOTUS.

Quote
  As for bothering with people, Jazz doesn't bother with me.  I'm no fun, I have his number.

 :silly: :silly:   Like hell you do. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 09:17:09 pm
Oh that is quite the other way around. Your 'community's police power' will be exposed to me... And 100m other fellers.

Fighting words.  When the time comes, you'll fold like a bleep.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 09:19:11 pm
We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a tyranny.   

Yeah, you go think that.  Especially given the depth of tyranny that you advocate government and the courts be empowered to administer.


If you choose to ignore the laws enacted by the peoples' elective representatives, then you have chosen to be a lawbreaker and to expose yourself to the community's police power.

Since your precious government has already rendered itself lawless and corrupt - I don't give a flying fig if it considers those of us who refuse to comply with their edicts and tyrannies a 'lawbreaker'.  They have rendered themselves illegitimate with their numerous corrupt and tyrannical behaviors and I for one will ignore any infringements or attempted impositions of tyranny handed down under the color of law.

As I told you - you are going to need to arm-up your state agents with guns to go out and kill those of us who are going to refuse to comply with whatever infringements and abolishments on our rights that you think are good, right and lawful.  And you will have that war we are warning you and your kind that you are pushing for.


If the firefight you lust for then ensues,  I trust you're right about your faith walk and will join your Maker.   

Live free or die.  Something tyrants like you cannot comprehend.

Fighting words.  When the time comes, you'll fold like a bleep.   

You go think that.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 09:22:40 pm
Most gun laws are in fact established at the state level.

And would you obey those laws or offer armed resistance?

Well, since I have a basic underatanding of the Founders intent of 2A, I know that it actually was intended to protect my individual RKBA from nannies and others intent on making me a subject, so any state laws that try to curb that right are unconstitutional.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 09:24:29 pm
Fighting words.  When the time comes, you'll fold like a bleep.

Bring it and see.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 01, 2018, 09:25:27 pm
Well, since I have a basic underatanding of the Founders intent of 2A, I know that it actually was intended to protect my individual RKBA from nannies and others intent on making me a subject, so any state laws that try to curb that right are unconstitutional.

@RoosGirl
isn't it ironic how willing gun banners are to use govt force upon the people for public safety reasons.

If they had to go out door to door and collect the guns I wonder if they would be as willing to push their confiscation nonsense.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 09:27:34 pm
Fighting words.  When the time comes, you'll fold like a bleep.

No we won't.  We're not like you.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 09:39:14 pm
Fighting words.  When the time comes, you'll fold like a bleep.

I'm brave enough to find out whether your're brave enough to personally test that hypothesis.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 09:40:39 pm
Cool....a matinee.

 :2popcorn:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 01, 2018, 09:41:59 pm
The Constitution is very relevant.  But the 2A, facially, doesn't protect the individual right.  How do you explain away the predicate clause, Mr. Strict Constructionist?   

I did that on another thread, I'm not doing it again, and I'm not going to look it up for you.  It's not my fault you chose to ignore it, Mr. Judicial Supremacist.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 09:43:29 pm
Well, since I have a basic underatanding of the Founders intent of 2A, I know that it actually was intended to protect my individual RKBA from nannies and others intent on making me a subject, so any state laws that try to curb that right are unconstitutional.

Right... So obeying the law... You will till you won't.
I get that alright.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: SZonian on March 01, 2018, 09:50:00 pm
@RoosGirl
isn't it ironic how willing gun banners are to use govt force upon the people for public safety reasons.

If they had to go out door to door and collect the guns I wonder if they would be as willing to push their confiscation nonsense.
See how well it worked in NY when they passed the "SAFE Act"?  Yeah, it didn't because the cops know better.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-safe-act-weapons-registry-numbers-released-article-1.2267730 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-safe-act-weapons-registry-numbers-released-article-1.2267730)

https://hudsonvalleyone.com/2016/07/07/massive-noncompliance-with-safe-act/ (https://hudsonvalleyone.com/2016/07/07/massive-noncompliance-with-safe-act/)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: skeeter on March 01, 2018, 09:50:14 pm
For Jazzy it's worse than that:  Our rights are not spelled out on parchment, it's whatever the courts say they are.  That will change daily.  I think of him as a "Judicial Supremacist."  The Constitution is irrelevant.  The Bible is irrelevant.  Statutes are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what the highest Judge to rule on something has to say about it, and that only matters until it doesn't.

As for bothering with people, Jazz doesn't bother with me.  I'm no fun, I have his number.

Jazz tells us the parchment doesn't really say what it clearly does say, and that we need attorneys and judges to interpret it for us. Not really surprising given his vocation.

No sense in debating someone who will not see the truth when its right there in front of him, in black & white.



Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 09:56:49 pm
Right... So obeying the law... You will till you won't.
I get that alright.

The "Law" in the Supreme Law of the Land does not apply to individual citizens - but to government and prohibits their ability to infringe on an inalienable and God-given Right.

Our Tyranny-Advocate continually states that none of our Rights are absolute - they are merely privileges that government has authority to *reasonably regulate* as they see fit.

It is the government and tyranny-advocates like our resident here who are in violation of the Law.

What garbage he advocates for and the beast at Mordor on the Potomac "passes" is simply tyranny under the color of law, and has no authority any of us have to obey.  All the Beast has is guns their agents will be asked to put to our heads to force compliance to the abolition of a right into a rescinded government privilege.

We are duty bound to defy and resist if we are governed by liberty instead of the tyranny he thinks he can get us to agree to support.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 10:01:30 pm
Jazz tells us the parchment doesn't really say what it clearly does say, and that we need attorneys and judges to interpret it for us. Not really surprising given his vocation.


I get that he’s saying without clarification, it’s subject to the whims of changing court majorities.  However, the only thing keeping it from being scrapped wholesale is the absolutists that won’t move on the issue.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 10:03:51 pm

I get that he’s saying without clarification, it’s subject to the whims of changing court majorities.  However, the only thing keeping it from being scrapped wholesale is the absolutists that won’t move on the issue.

Correction: we 'SELFISH absolutists' and 'gun fetishists'.

Let us make sure we get his DU DNC Liberal Labels applied correctly to ourselves.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: skeeter on March 01, 2018, 10:11:29 pm

I get that he’s saying without clarification, it’s subject to the whims of changing court majorities.  However, the only thing keeping it from being scrapped wholesale is the absolutists that won’t move on the issue.

Right. We have to believe that we the people can still have a role in such 'clarification'.

In essence he's telling us to stand aside and let the 'experts' handle it.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GrouchoTex on March 01, 2018, 10:14:12 pm
No we won't.  We're not like you.

Like my avatar...
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 10:34:24 pm
No sense in debating someone who will not see the truth when its right there in front of him, in black & white.

The predicate clause is right there, in black & white.  You can't wish it away,  any strict constructionist interpretation of the 2A's meaning has to account for the predicate clause which establishes that the CONTEXT of the right is the need to provide for the citizens' militia - not the natural right of individual self defense. 

Read it yourself.  You don't need a lawyer - the thing says what it says. 

edpc has it right:

 
Quote
  I get that he’s saying without clarification, it’s subject to the whims of changing court majorities.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  The right is fragile because it is propped up by the Heller opinion, and the left despises Heller and wants to see it overturned as soon as possible. 

edpc raises by implication another issue - are the gun rights absolutists helping or hurting?   He says they are keeping the left from successfully abrogating the natural right - but are they?  Or are they merely energizing the other side by their intransigence?     If Hillary had been elected, the Heller opinion may have already been scrapped by now.   What's needed is a Constitutional amendment, while there's still time, and still majorities in most state legislatures to ratify such an amendment.   

Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 10:35:02 pm
The "Law" in the Supreme Law of the Land does not apply to individual citizens - but to government and prohibits their ability to infringe on an inalienable and God-given Right.

Our Tyranny-Advocate continually states that none of our Rights are absolute - they are merely privileges that government has authority to *reasonably regulate* as they see fit.

I am right there with you. I am pickin up what you're laying down...
but the question was whether one would obey STATE gun laws. A nother other thing.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 01, 2018, 10:39:25 pm
Cool....a matinee.

 :2popcorn:
(http://gifgifs.com//animations/creatures-cartoons/cartoons-simpsons/Itchy_and_Scratchy_2.gif) (http://gifgifs.com/) (http://gifgifs.com/)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 01, 2018, 10:43:41 pm
Like my avatar...

Exactly. The words on the Gonzales Flag come to mind all the time these days.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 10:48:54 pm
edpc raises by implication another issue - are the gun rights absolutists helping or hurting?   He says they are keeping the left from successfully abrogating the natural right - but are they?  Or are they merely energizing the other side by their intransigence?


I’ll say without hesitation I believe they are helping.  The fact they’re so stubborn about leaves no doubt in my mind there would be dozens of Wacos if the government attempted serious measures.  These wouldn’t be weird cult groups, either.  Sure, some would be kooky militia types seeing NWO people and blue helmets everywhere, but a good deal would be normal people drawing the line.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 10:49:35 pm
I am right there with you. I am pickin up what you're laying down...
but the question was whether one would obey STATE gun laws. A nother other thing.

If the 14th is to be liberally applied as our resident Leftist continually lectures us that it does in matters of homosexual sex made acceptable and holy,  then the entirety of the Constitution and the BOR applies to the individual states the same as it does the Federal Beast.

That our rights may not be touched or infringed by government as they are construed to be bestowed upon us by God and nature's God, and therefore the courts and government of men are prohibited from infringing on them.

When they do, they are become lawless and no longer have any legitimacy we must obey or respect. To do so is just surrendering our rights 'legally' to become nothing but a state-granted privilege, regardless of whether the Feds or the States do it.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 10:58:41 pm

I’ll say without hesitation I believe they are helping.  The fact they’re so stubborn about leaves no doubt in my mind there would be dozens of Wacos if the government attempted serious measures.  These wouldn’t be weird cult groups, either.  Sure, some would be kooky militia types seeing NWO people and blue helmets everywhere, but a good deal would be normal people drawing the line.

We'll soon see.  Clearly, in the recent past Dem moves to restrict gun rights have led to a backlash at the voting booth,  but 2018 is a strange, strange year.  Not only have we seen in the past year two of the absolute worst "assault rifle" massacres,  but the Trump Presidency has the libs at their wit's end.  Recent trends suggest that the Dems will be motivated as never before to resist the President who, putting aside his egotism and tweets,  is governing in a radically conservative direction,  with tax cuts,  creative regulatory reform, and absolute disdain for liberal religious tenets such as global warming. 

The President is achieving conservative results that even Reagan couldn't.   The target on his back is large,  and conservatives (who continue to bitch and squabble with one another) had better unite and quick or a reactionary tidal wave may create the conditions for a lot of destruction.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 11:02:29 pm
When they do, they are become lawless and no longer have any legitimacy we must obey or respect. To do so is just surrendering our rights 'legally' to become nothing but a state-granted privilege, regardless of whether the Feds or the States do it.

Right. I'll keep the law till I don't. We're on the same page.
Though by my nature, some laws are kept more than others...   :smokin:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: LauraTXNM on March 01, 2018, 11:03:01 pm
Do you know how many people issued a GVRO walk right through them every year and kill the people they are designed to protect?

Again...maybe if you got out of the classroom and into the real world you'd understand just how ineffective what you're proposing is in reality.

I believe there have been around 10 in CA during the last year.  How do we know they weren't effective?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 01, 2018, 11:05:56 pm
I believe there have been around 10 in CA during the last year.  How do we know they weren't effective?

Well I can tell you how effective restraining orders are. Probably likewise.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 01, 2018, 11:07:14 pm
I believe there have been around 10 in CA during the last year.  How do we know they weren't effective?

The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.  Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 11:15:17 pm
The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.  Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences.

Well, it's 'lawful orders' from government to do property confiscations and commit genocide too.  In fact South Africa just made it legal to seize all property and land belonging to whites, with the warning that they 'are not advocating the slaughter of white people.... just yet'.

If most are willing to follow orders and get onto boxcars for camps, it is because most people are willing to sell themselves into slavery and subjugation for the empty promise of bread, safety and security.  The few who refuse are actually the only ones capable of having or maintaining liberty for any length of time.

And yes, we are willing to be rebels from your lawless government when it decides it can "legally" infringe, ban and confiscate our arms while rendering a right into a privilege they grant upon their discretion.   They will have the war you are pushing for.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 01, 2018, 11:16:08 pm
The President is achieving conservative results that even Reagan couldn't.   The target on his back is large,  and conservatives (who continue to bitch and squabble with one another) had better unite and quick or a reactionary tidal wave may create the conditions for a lot of destruction.


Well, the problem is, he’s playing with two hot issues - immigration and gun rights - that are important to conservatives.  People can talk about what will get 60 votes all they want, but some things are unacceptable.

You can’t expect me to be happy with a wall when the 30-something DACA ‘kids’ Jose and Consuelo are allowed to stay on the north side of it.  Don’t tell me their half dozen or more children will be conservatives, either. 

I’m also not satisfied with the extensive list of guns some are waiting to ban for the most ridiculous reasons and being told I can still have the ones they deem appropriate.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 01, 2018, 11:21:22 pm
The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.  Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences.
And of course the problem isn't with those that would obey, it's those that wouldn't. Someone intent on doing harm or killing someone will find a way, no gun no sweat they'll use a knife, run them down with their car , beat them to death with a baseball bat. Infringing on honest law abiding citizens won't stop crazy, never has. And there were laws and procedures in place that would have stopped Cruz and a number of other mass shooter if law enforcement had just followed them..................period!
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Fishrrman on March 01, 2018, 11:43:57 pm
Invar wrote:
"I do not know what course others will stake, but for me - this is the hill to resist and die on.  The funny thing is, they are going to have to empower their government to equip agents with guns to go out and kill those gun owners with guns,  who refuse to comply and surrender them should they get their wish."

Go here and read the subtitle:
https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/133469/The_Turner_Diaries.pdf (https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/133469/The_Turner_Diaries.pdf)

Afterwards, you might consider reading the entire book...
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 01, 2018, 11:50:28 pm
Invar wrote:
"I do not know what course others will stake, but for me - this is the hill to resist and die on.  The funny thing is, they are going to have to empower their government to equip agents with guns to go out and kill those gun owners with guns,  who refuse to comply and surrender them should they get their wish."

Go here and read the subtitle:
https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/133469/The_Turner_Diaries.pdf (https://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/133469/The_Turner_Diaries.pdf)

Afterwards, you might consider reading the entire book...

Thanks. 

Actually I enjoyed 'Unintended Consequences' a lot more.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 01, 2018, 11:50:45 pm
The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.  Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences.

Holy crow, like whatever law they broke to get a lawful restraining order slapped on them?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 02, 2018, 12:01:49 am
Right. We have to believe that we the people can still have a role in such 'clarification'.

In essence he's telling us to stand aside and let the 'experts' handle it.

And of course he believes he's one of the "experts" who is smarter than us and therefore should tell us what to do.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 02, 2018, 12:02:53 am
Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws


Thanks for ruining Outlaw Night for me and the Mrs.  Back into storage goes the stetson and duster.  Stay away from the medical threads, so I can still use my old labcoat for Mad Scientist night.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: txradioguy on March 02, 2018, 12:06:13 am
Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences.

Probably doesn't happen near as often as you "get wood" at the thought of abrogating basic civil liberties and Constitutional rights of millions of law abiding Americans because you think you know better than they do how to run their every day lives and live them the way they see fit.

You lend a lot of credence to the last 15 pages or so of Animal Farm.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 12:39:42 am

Thanks for ruining Outlaw Night for me and the Mrs.  Back into storage goes the stetson and duster.  Stay away from the medical threads, so I can still use my old labcoat for Mad Scientist night.
@edpc
Let me get you some lab coat eyewash to clear that outlaw image for ya! (http://i68.tinypic.com/2u3ywzk.jpg)

Okay, you can get back on topic now before I get slammed for hi-jacking the thread.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 12:58:30 am
Probably doesn't happen near as often as you "get wood" at the thought of abrogating basic civil liberties and Constitutional rights of millions of law abiding Americans because you think you know better than they do how to run their every day lives and live them the way they see fit.

You lend a lot of credence to the last 15 pages or so of Animal Farm.

Heck, he IS animal farm.  The amount of lecturing he launches here about equality, but how some animals are more equal than others is endless.   How 'Rights' are guaranteed and cannot be denied, unless they are denied because one does not receive government permission.  He is a walking epitome of Ingsoc.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 02, 2018, 01:07:12 am
@edpc
Let me get you some lab coat eyewash to clear that outlaw image for ya! (http://i68.tinypic.com/2u3ywzk.jpg)

Okay, you can get back on topic now before I get slammed for hi-jacking the thread.

Topic?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 01:21:43 am
Topic?
Well it has been kind of a (http://gifgifs.com//animations/hobbies-entertainment/circus/Big_top.gif) (http://gifgifs.com/) at times. (http://[/URL)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 01:33:12 am

Thanks for ruining Outlaw Night for me and the Mrs.  Back into storage goes the stetson and duster.  Stay away from the medical threads, so I can still use my old labcoat for Mad Scientist night.

Cripes, you talking about that makes me want to scratch my brain out more than Jazz saying some of us get wood for being willing to stand up for ourselves.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 02, 2018, 01:36:39 am
Cripes, you talking about that makes me want to scratch my brain out more than Jazz saying some of us get wood for being willing to stand up for ourselves.


Well, that was a letdown.  I was hoping to at least qualify for your ‘Ew!’ gif.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 01:39:52 am

Well, that was a letdown.  I was hoping to at least qualify for your ‘Ew!’ gif.

"Ew!" doesn't cover it.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 02, 2018, 01:45:06 am
"Ew!" doesn't cover it.



‘Ew’ wouldn’t cover it.  That’s what the lab coat is for.   :laugh:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 01:45:53 am


‘Ew’ wouldn’t cover it.  That’s what the lab coat is for.   :laugh:

LOL
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 01:53:26 am
‘Ew’ wouldn’t cover it.  That’s what the lab coat is for.   

Gives an entirely new dimension to the topic of gun abolition now doesn't it?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 01:55:55 am
Gives an entirely new dimension to the topic of gun abolition now doesn't it?

I'm beginning to think "riding shotgun" doesn't mean what I thought it meant.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 02:02:57 am
I'm beginning to think "riding shotgun" doesn't mean what I thought it meant.

We'll double-barreled shot.... er.... never mind.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: edpc on March 02, 2018, 02:14:14 am
I’d like to claim the title of ‘Henry rifle,’ but I’d be lying.  Back to the regularly scheduled program, before security gets me.....


! No longer available (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kf3bw8KEZ44#)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Fishrrman on March 02, 2018, 02:54:28 am
Invar wrote:
"Actually I enjoyed 'Unintended Consequences' a lot more"

Actually, so did I.
But "Turner" is still an important volume on the reading list.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 02:58:42 am
I'm beginning to think "riding shotgun" doesn't mean what I thought it meant.
You mean it has nothing to do with this?
(http://i68.tinypic.com/23wwpyx.jpg)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 03:50:08 am
You mean it has nothing to do with this?
(http://i68.tinypic.com/23wwpyx.jpg)

I honestly have no idea what that is.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Sanguine on March 02, 2018, 04:39:32 am
I honestly have no idea what that is.

Me either.  But, @GtHawk does have some interesting taste in art.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 05:16:36 am
Me either.  But, @GtHawk does have some interesting taste in art.

Riding Shotgun is something I remember my son having around,  You should've seen what I read as a kid.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/1zcle6u.jpg)  (http://i66.tinypic.com/29pchmu.jpg)  (http://i67.tinypic.com/vq14qt.jpg)  (http://i66.tinypic.com/2a7hf75.jpg)

Superheroes were just too boring and the artwork in these, much more interesting.

@Sanguine
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Sanguine on March 02, 2018, 05:18:43 am
I hear ya, @GtHawk.  I'm still a Frazetta fan. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 05:23:21 am
I hear ya, @GtHawk.  I'm still a Frazetta fan.
He does nice work, I always admired the illustrators for Sci Fi and Fantasy, bringing the Authors words to life.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: LauraTXNM on March 02, 2018, 06:05:25 am
@Jazzhead   @Cyber Liberty
The intent of the 2A is clearly supported by the writings of the people that wrote it.   They stated their intent and belief that an armed populace was necessary for a free populace.

The Constitution doesn't give us the right, it protects it from Government interference.

Once again, I'm way behind.  But if we're strict Constitutionalists, we are to look ONLY to the Constitution as our base?
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: LauraTXNM on March 02, 2018, 06:13:09 am
The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.  Folks on this thread get wood at the idea of being outlaws,  but most of us are willing to obey a lawful court order because of the potential consequences.

I can look up the report if anyone's interested.  It went county by county and included the numbers of cases where people got their weapons back at a later hearing, etc.

To clarify -- this is the mental health restraining orders I'm talking about -- families requesting a mentally ill family member be restricted from arms while under treatment, etc.  I'm not talking about traditional domestic violence restraining orders.

Sorry if it wasn't clear.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: thackney on March 02, 2018, 12:40:43 pm
The question isn't how many restraining orders were disobeyed, but how many were obeyed.

@Jazzhead

According to the The American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, some studies show ~20% obeyed, and ~80 broken; others have better results.  Remember, this is a lawful order to someone who already decided to break the law.  The person is the problem in these cases, not the pipe, club, knife, gun, etc...

Do Protection Orders Protect?
http://jaapl.org/content/38/3/376 (http://jaapl.org/content/38/3/376)
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: goatprairie on March 02, 2018, 01:26:02 pm
Riding Shotgun is something I remember my son having around,  You should've seen what I read as a kid.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/1zcle6u.jpg)  (http://i66.tinypic.com/29pchmu.jpg)  (http://i67.tinypic.com/vq14qt.jpg)  (http://i66.tinypic.com/2a7hf75.jpg)

Superheroes were just too boring and the artwork in these, much more interesting.

@Sanguine
I had several uncles who were about ten years older than me.  They had some Tales From The Crypt comics from the early fifties they gave me and older brother.
I was about ten or twelve at the time.  Scared the fecal matter out of me.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 02, 2018, 01:34:09 pm
@Jazzhead

According to the The American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law, some studies show ~20% obeyed, and ~80 broken; others have better results.  Remember, this is a lawful order to someone who already decided to break the law.  The person is the problem in these cases, not the pipe, club, knife, gun, etc...

Do Protection Orders Protect?
http://jaapl.org/content/38/3/376 (http://jaapl.org/content/38/3/376)

Keep in mind that there are two types of protection orders -  the study you cite appears to focus on personal protection orders, where, for example, an abusive spouse is ordered to stay away from the family home.    It doesn't surprise me that a lot of those types of orders get disobeyed - as some have suggested perhaps the abused spouse should get a gun and serve as her own deputy. 

A gun violence restraining order affects the property of the abuser,  removing the guns that he can use to facilitate mayhem.   Sure, he can cause mayhem by other means,  but a gun is likely the most efficient and deadly.    So long as due process is followed,  I see no real downside to a GVRO.   It is certainly efficacious in accomplishing its intended purpose - separating a dangerous nut from his guns.   
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 01:58:10 pm
A gun violence restraining order affects the property of the abuser,  removing the guns that he can use to facilitate mayhem.   Sure, he can cause mayhem by other means,  but a gun is likely the most efficient and deadly.    So long as due process is followed,  I see no real downside to a GVRO.   It is certainly efficacious in accomplishing its intended purpose - separating a dangerous nut from his guns.

We don't trust the government or people like you to follow due process when engaged in punishing thought crime.

It doesn't matter what stupid, moronic, imbecilic and Orwellian ideas you attempt to suggest is the best way to achieve defacto gun confiscation and disarmament.

The most efficacious way of dealing with a nut job with a gun, is another with a gun to put them down when they attempt mayhem.  Works every time it is tried.  Most of the time just the threat of return fire is enough to be a preventative to gun violence. 

We say NO, to all your stupid arguments.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 02, 2018, 02:02:10 pm
So the solution to lawlessness is more lawlessness?   That may be the way it's done in a Tennessee holler, but I suspect that most Americans prefer - and respect - the rule of law.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: driftdiver on March 02, 2018, 02:05:33 pm
So the solution to lawlessness is more lawlessness?   That may be the way it's done in a Tennessee holler, but I suspect that most Americans prefer - and respect - the rule of law.

@Jazzhead
Laws don't make peace and they don't make for safety.  Likewise a bunch of armed police on every corner don't make peace.

Morality, integrity, and honesty among good people make the peace.

Your wet dream of a 'safe' world held at the point of a cops gun is the epitome of a totalitarian state.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 02:07:19 pm
So the solution to lawlessness is more lawlessness?   That may be the way it's done in a Tennessee holler, but I suspect that most Americans prefer - and respect - the rule of law.

The solution to nut jobs, criminals and tyrants is the exercise of our 2nd Amendment Right to keep and bear arms.

What you advocate here is NOT the rule of law, but the rule of tyranny.

And we are not having it.

It is precisely why we have guns in the first place: to prevent police-state morons like you from imposing your utopia with more 'laws'.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 02:10:28 pm
Your wet dream of a 'safe' world held at the point of a cops gun is the epitome of a totalitarian state.

That is what he wants when you digest nearly everything he posts to this board.  His sick, perverted version of Animal Farm being imposed with a voluminous deluge of newspeak towards a dystopian version of Ingsoc.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: HoustonSam on March 02, 2018, 02:13:31 pm
The law says you can purchase a rifle at 18; it doesn't forbid a seller from imposing a more stringent age requirement.   Age in this context isn't a protected characteristic like race, gender and (in some places) sexual orientation.   Walmart could lawfully, believe it or not, refuse to sell guns to liberals.  Political ideology likewise isn't a protected characteristic.

The question you are being asked is not what the law says, it is what does @Jazzhead say.

You argue consistently that a baker "gave his word" when he advertised that he sold wedding cakes, and should be required to keep his word, without regard for his values.  Did WalMart "give its word" when it advertised selling rifles?  By what logic do you, Jazzhead, not the law, distinguish the case of compelling the baker to sell with no restrictions because he "gave his word" by advertising and operating a public accommodation, but allowing WalMart to maintain restrictions on what it sells, even though it "gave its word" by advertising and operating a public accommodation?

Now you can fairly respond "because it's the law", but then you'll be forced logically to defend bad laws and you will lose any defensible ground for ever arguing to change any existing law.

You are being asked what you think *should be*.  You evade when you respond with what *is*.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 02:23:06 pm
The question you are being asked is not what the law says, it is what does @Jazzhead say.

You argue consistently that a baker "gave his word" when he advertised that he sold wedding cakes, and should be required to keep his word, without regard for his values.  Did WalMart "give its word" when it advertised selling rifles?  By what logic do you, Jazzhead, not the law, distinguish the case of compelling the baker to sell with no restrictions because he "gave his word" by advertising and operating a public accommodation, but allowing WalMart to maintain restrictions on what it sells, even though it "gave its word" by advertising and operating a public accommodation?

Now you can fairly respond "because it's the law", but then you'll be forced logically to defend bad laws and you will lose any defensible ground for ever arguing to change any existing law.

You are being asked what you think *should be*.  You evade when you respond with what *is*.

Our resident Tyranny-Advocate will tell you the the difference between the state forcing someone to bake a cake for homosexuals against their will, and a retailer selling a gun they advertise - is 'equal protection under the law' bullshit.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: HoustonSam on March 02, 2018, 02:26:17 pm
Come on, ML.  I've said time and again that I believe abortion is morally wrong.  But I haven't the right or the authority, and neither does the government, to impose my morality on another.

Persuasion, not coercion, is the answer. 

Why are you so insecure in your beliefs to think that persuasion can't work?   

And yet @Jazzhead you argue precisely that your morality should be imposed on the baker, by force of law.  Now in fairness you have also argued that the civil penalty should have been one dollar, not a ruinous fine, but the fact of government coercion remains, whether imposed by a velvet glove or a mailed fist, since the former threatens the latter.

Are you so insecure in your beliefs to think persuasion can't work to influence the baker to operate as you believe he should?  (You see, shaming and intellectually dishonest positions don't behoove me any more than they do you.)

What is the basis for distinguishing cases where your beliefs can be imposed on another by coercion, and where they cannot?  To put a finer point on it, is the right to buy a wedding cake from a particular baker actually more deserving of government protection than the right to life in utero?  And remember, I'm asking you a subjunctive question, not an indicative one; citing the actual law is not a valid answer.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: jpsb on March 02, 2018, 02:35:14 pm
I did that on another thread, I'm not doing it again, and I'm not going to look it up for you.  It's not my fault you chose to ignore it, Mr. Judicial Supremacist.

@Cyber Liberty @RoosGirl

As usual @Jazzhead does not know what he is talking about from Wiki

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), is a landmark case in which the Supreme
Court of the United States held, in a 5–4 decision, that the Second Amendment protects an
individual's right to possess a firearm
unconnected with service in a militia for traditionally lawful
purposes, such as self-defense
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 02, 2018, 02:39:05 pm
So the solution to lawlessness is more lawlessness?   That may be the way it's done in a Tennessee holler, but I suspect that most Americans prefer - and respect - the rule of law.

"Tennessee holler?"  So we have @Jazzhead version "Snob" today?

Talking about a "holler" is a lot like calling people of a certain race a "N***."  A person of that race can do that, but I can't because I'm white.  Unless you live in the holler I would suggest you just erase the term from your vocabulary.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: HoustonSam on March 02, 2018, 02:45:10 pm
The Constitution is very relevant.  But the 2A, facially, doesn't protect the individual right.  How do you explain away the predicate clause, Mr. Strict Constructionist?   

Because the subject clause doesn't say "the right of the militia", it says "the right of the people."

The Constitution *should be* relevant, but as long as the legal profession succeeds in arguing that the Constitution *doesn't mean* what it *does say* (for example about the RKBA), and it *does mean* what it *doesn't say* (for example about "choice"), then appeals to court interpretation will be regarded as sophistry.  This is the exact reason that many in the land, including frequent posters on this board, routinely invoke the specter of gun seizures and allude to armed resistance.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: jpsb on March 02, 2018, 02:45:11 pm
So the solution to lawlessness is more lawlessness?   That may be the way it's done in a Tennessee holler, but I suspect that most Americans prefer - and respect - the rule of law.

A moral people, something you know nothing about (again) have a moral duty to disobey an immoral
law.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Sanguine on March 02, 2018, 02:50:11 pm
And, remember, the right to keep and bear arms is an enumerated right which means that it is a right that exists as a condition of one's being a person and citizen of this country, and was so important that the FF's thought it necessary to enumerate it in the Bill of Rights.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: RoosGirl on March 02, 2018, 03:20:12 pm
Keep in mind that there are two types of protection orders -  the study you cite appears to focus on personal protection orders, where, for example, an abusive spouse is ordered to stay away from the family home.    It doesn't surprise me that a lot of those types of orders get disobeyed - as some have suggested perhaps the abused spouse should get a gun and serve as her own deputy. 

A gun violence restraining order affects the property of the abuser,  removing the guns that he can use to facilitate mayhem.   Sure, he can cause mayhem by other means,  but a gun is likely the most efficient and deadly.    So long as due process is followed,  I see no real downside to a GVRO.   It is certainly efficacious in accomplishing its intended purpose - separating a dangerous nut from his guns.

"Serve as her own deputy."  People like you are the reason I more than dabble in the art of profanity.  More liberal bullshit about Big Daddy Government protecting people.  These little messages often slip by unchallenged.  Please, everyone note the implied idea that it's the deputies of our communities that should be protecting us.  Now think about those four heroes who hid behind their cars down in Broward a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 02, 2018, 03:32:09 pm
"Serve as her own deputy."  People like you are the reason I more than dabble in the art of profanity. 

People like him are the reason we need to keep and bear arms.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 02, 2018, 03:48:00 pm
"Serve as her own deputy."  People like you are the reason I more than dabble in the art of profanity.  More liberal bullshit about Big Daddy Government protecting people.  These little messages often slip by unchallenged.  Please, everyone note the implied idea that it's the deputies of our communities that should be protecting us.  Now think about those four heroes who hid behind their cars down in Broward a few weeks ago.

Hey, they got to go home to their families safe that night, and that's the important thing.... 9999hair out0000
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 02, 2018, 03:49:20 pm
People like him are the reason we need to keep and bear arms.

'Firmrtive.  Not only does he have no clue of that, but he'll call you a selfish fetishist for saying it.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: roamer_1 on March 02, 2018, 04:21:00 pm
Keep in mind that there are two types of protection orders -  the study you cite appears to focus on personal protection orders, where, for example, an abusive spouse is ordered to stay away from the family home.    It doesn't surprise me that a lot of those types of orders get disobeyed - as some have suggested perhaps the abused spouse should get a gun and serve as her own deputy. 

The sheer stupidity of drawing a distinction -  There is no distinction. Someone who is pissed off to the point of lawlessness is not going to pay attention to the law at all -
Especially so with someone who has mass murder in their heart.

Quote
A gun violence restraining order affects the property of the abuser,  removing the guns that he can use to facilitate mayhem.   Sure, he can cause mayhem by other means,  but a gun is likely the most efficient and deadly.    So long as due process is followed,  I see no real downside to a GVRO.   It is certainly efficacious in accomplishing its intended purpose - separating a dangerous nut from his guns.

No, a gun is not likely the most efficient or deadly. It is equally as easy to access dynamite or kinnepac, or make a pipe/sparkler/fertilizer bomb... Rat poison can be acquired at any hardware store... A simple match and 10 gallons of diesel ...  Even the pickup truck in the front yard can be just as devastating as a gun, and probably more so.

Your fixation on guns as the root of all evil is simplistic and inane, as is your absurd assumption that the lawless will be curbed in ANY fashion by a piece of paper and the banging of a gavel. And that's all assuming you actually GOT his guns with your silly order in the first place.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Fishrrman on March 02, 2018, 11:38:33 pm
Why do folks here still bother with Jazzhead?
Waste of time.
I've had him on the ignore list for quite a while now.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Sanguine on March 02, 2018, 11:40:44 pm
Why do folks here still bother with Jazzhead?
Waste of time.
I've had him on the ignore list for quite a while now.

I think some people like pain and aggravation.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: GtHawk on March 02, 2018, 11:54:53 pm
I think some people like pain and aggravation.
I think it more like that scab you is just gonna bleed if you if pick it, but you just go ahead and pick it anyway.

Now for my Friday gift to all.................I will post no images of scabs!
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Cyber Liberty on March 03, 2018, 12:15:20 am
I think it more like that scab you is just gonna bleed if you if pick it, but you just go ahead and pick it anyway.

Now for my Friday gift to all.................I will post no images of scabs!

...and there was much rejoicing.  Yaay.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: WingNot on March 03, 2018, 12:41:49 am
I think some people like pain and aggravation.

Nah there is more to Jazz than meets the eye...
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Sanguine on March 03, 2018, 12:53:21 am
Nah there is more to Jazz than meets the eye...

Uh huh.  Spill. 
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: SZonian on March 03, 2018, 12:53:43 am
Why do folks here still bother with Jazzhead?
Waste of time.
I've had him on the ignore list for quite a while now.
Every group needs that "one".  Otherwise it becomes an echo chamber and besides, where's the fun in that?  I like it vs. TOS where folks posting opinions such as his get tossed at a moments notice.  Let's you know what the other side is thinking.

I have 2 on my ignore list, but they made it personal, so there's that.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: WingNot on March 03, 2018, 12:57:03 am
Uh huh.  Spill.

 :silly:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: INVAR on March 03, 2018, 02:14:01 am
Why do folks here still bother with Jazzhead?
Waste of time.
I've had him on the ignore list for quite a while now.

Jazzy provides us an invaluable service to Conservatives here at TBR.

He hands us splendid argumentation that the Left is using to sell the benefits of Socialism/Marxism and tyranny by redefining those traits as being Conservative and Constitutional.

He spews the newest talking points and angles of attacking the foundations that one finds being means-tested at DU and MSNBC.  He introduces us to lawyer-speak or newspeak the Statists use to try and convince the people that Ingsoc is vital to fairness and our survival.

So we get an advance preview of the bullshit they will sell to the less-than-thinking Republicans and populace out there and get them to embrace what is anathema to Conservatism while being told it is Conservative.

As a Leftist, his pretend role as a Conservative is for the purpose of beguiling a people to buy into his own made up definition of what the term 'Conservative' means.  He is consistent with that behavior, because he does the same exact thing when it comes to redefining Christianity.   As he rejects the plain words out of the Bible and ignores them for his own interpretation that makes evil and sin a righteous exercise, - so too he rejects the plain words of the Constitution and either ignores them or finds other meanings and laws hidden away in the "penumbras and emanations" that his priesthood of judges and attorneys have put into their talmud which makes tyranny and Statism Constitutional.   It's the method of getting a people beholden to scripture or the Constitution to throw them out and embrace ideas anathema to their existence.  To embrace his 'living' versions of what they mean. 

His presence here at TBR is a gift to us.  For he is the gojo mat for us to practice cutting liberalism and Statism to shreds; a bokken to help our execution of technique and the seupaling baeg to hone our combat skills.
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: Jazzhead on March 03, 2018, 03:58:50 am
 :tongue2:
Title: Re: End Game: "It’s Time For Gun Abolition. We Need To Ban All Civilian Guns."
Post by: ConstitutionRose on March 03, 2018, 02:29:29 pm
We can't know with certainty.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from it and try to plug the gaps in the system that might have prevented the murders.   A GVRO is a useful tool, same as a gun itself.

A protection order is a useful tool, but it did not prevent the x-husband from finding and murdering my girlfriend and their children.  NOT a one-off instance either.

Take note of the fact that all of these killers researched other methods of mass killing as well.  No access to a gun, build a bomb, set a fire, release poison gas, etc.  Heck, in China a man killed more than 30 with a sword.  Someone who is that ill will find a way. 

The gun confiscation laws will be corrupted just as has every other "protection" in the history of man.  If you want a current example, take a look at the misuse of the FISA wwarrants.