The Briefing Room

General Category => Politics/Government => Topic started by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 04:21:19 am

Title: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 04:21:19 am
http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/the-gop-has-finally-found-a-way-to-defeat-the-tea-party-20140501

PINEHURST, N.C.—On a rainy afternoon a month before North Carolina's May 6 Republican primary, state House Speaker and Senate hopeful Thom Tillis was at the Pinehurst Resort and golf course, where the U.S. Open will be held later this year. But the three-minute speech Tillis gave made him sound more like he was at the Masters, being measured for a green jacket.

At a lunch forum sponsored by the Moore (County) Republican Women, to which all of the GOP candidates were invited, Tillis was acting like a winner: He had the support of 22 state senators and 68 members of the General Assembly, he boasted; he'd just wrapped up a "great" fundraising quarter, bringing in $1.3 million over the previous three months. He saw no meaningful differences between himself and his seven opponents, except the one that mattered: "It comes down to experience and a path to beating Kay Hagan. Our goal is to beat Kay Hagan," Tillis said. "They know that we stand ready to beat them, and we're most likely the state that will deliver … a GOP majority!"

Then Tillis mentioned that a major endorsement had just come in. "Probably my proudest moment in public service happened this morning when I was driving up here," he said. "I just received the endorsement of the National Right to Life, and more than anybody else, more than any organization I can think of, I'm proud that they recognize the work that we've done to save the lives of the unborn.

On a couch in the resort's ornate reception area after the speeches, another candidate, Mark Harris, the senior pastor at Charlotte's First Baptist Church and president of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, expressed disbelief. "When he said he had the endorsement of the National Right to Life—somebody needs to check into that," Harris said. "Because we all met with the National Right to Life. I know I met with them in October, and they indicated to me that they probably would not be endorsing in the primary."

But one of Harris's strategists, Mike Rusher, who had been standing beside him scrolling through screens on his smartphone, quickly confirmed that the endorsement was real. Harris turned red and paused for a few seconds before responding. "I guess it's just an indication of the National Republican Senatorial Committee's pressure," he said. As it turned out, it was worse than that. In the press release announcing the endorsement, National Right to Life President Carol Tobias said Tillis was the "only candidate with a proven record of leadership who can defeat pro-abortion Sen. Hagan this fall."

Electability was trumping ideological purity—just as the establishment had planned.
THE STRATEGY

After being caught flat-footed by tea-party insurgents in 2010, allowing candidates like Delaware's Christine O'Donnell and Nevada's Sharron Angle to win the GOP nomination and then self-destruct—and then, for fear of alienating the newly empowered Right, copping a largely laissez-faire attitude in 2012—the Republican establishment, led by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, is taking a different approach this time around.

In March, McConnell told The New York Times he was going to "crush" outside conservative groups that dared to take on Senate incumbents. Tillis isn't an incumbent, but he is nonetheless an early beneficiary of the emerging establishment strategy to engage its own roster of outside groups, such as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, in a coordinated effort to ensure that the most electable GOP candidates get nominated, especially in pivotal Senate contests.

Instead of merely handing out endorsements, these groups are spending big on expensive advertising campaigns on behalf of their favored candidates. They're quietly circulating opposition research raising questions about tea-party challengers' fitness to serve. And they're even airing positive testimonials—an approach once considered the domain of the candidates themselves, not outside groups. (The New York Times reported that more than a quarter of the ads from super PAC American Crossroads so far this cycle have had a positive spin; not a single one did in 2012.)

McConnell former Chief of Staff Billy Piper says that McConnell learned from two veteran Republican senators who managed to beat back conservative opposition with aggressive tactics. In 2010, John McCain won decisively by raising big money, moving to the right on immigration, and casting his opponent—former House member and talk-show host J.D. Hayworth—as out of the mainstream. Two years later, Orrin Hatch attacked outside conservative groups that attempted to paint him as a moderate, winning two-thirds of the GOP primary vote against an opponent backed by the tea-party group FreedomWorks.

    "Nobody likes family squabbles, but at the end of the day the goal is to produce candidates that can win in the fall."

"It's a good lesson, one that McConnell certainly noticed. It fits in with his mode of campaigning: very aggressive, getting involved early, making sure no one is successful at defining you," says Piper, now a lobbyist whose shop maintains close connections with Senate Republicans. "Nobody likes family squabbles, but at the end of the day the goal is to produce candidates that can win in the fall. The Chamber has been a leader to make sure we can accomplish that result. I don't think anyone looks at the last couple of cycles and thinks we did a very good job generally. Something had to change, and they had the courage to step up and do what was right."

Tillis is the prototype of an establishment candidate. The onetime Pricewaterhouse- Coopers partner-turned-ladder-climbing-state-legislative-leader is a Republican donor's dream, and he's got the fundraising results to prove it. He has ties to Wall Street and the business community, political experience, and a strategist's sensibility: He led the successful GOP effort to retake the General Assembly in 2010, giving Republicans unified control of state government for the first time in more than a century. And Tillis is disciplined. He is consistently on message, never straying into dangerous waters. In short, Tillis, with his pragmatic streak and country-club credentials, represents just about everything tea partiers rose up to oppose.

Thus far, he has handled that delicate matter largely by keeping a low profile in the race, whenever possible avoiding forums where his conservative opponents might raise questions about his ideological fidelity. (Unlike Harris, whose evangelical charisma is one of his political strengths, Tillis didn't seem at all disappointed that the candidates' speeches at the Pinehurst forum were limited to three minutes apiece.) The plan is for him simply to run out the primary clock—while teammates like American Crossroads, which had begun singing his praises that week to the tune of $1 million in ads, hold off his rivals.

As he mingled with the retirees in the ballroom, Tillis was buoyed by more than just the National Right to Life endorsement. He had also just learned that he was to receive the enthusiastic backing of the U.S. Chamber; the National Rifle Association would soon follow suit. Careful as Tillis is, he couldn't help but crow a bit, saying that he'd love to become chairman of the NRSC, helping to elect other Republican senators in the future—presuming that he won his own race, of course.

But his confidence to some degree belied the primary danger he still faced: being forced into a runoff with a rival to his right. Two years ago, the Texas establishment stood behind Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst in his primary battle against one Ted Cruz. Dewhurst finished first in the primary, but Cruz took him to a runoff. The rest is history. Thom Tillis (Douglas Graham/CQ Roll Call)

Forty percent is the portion of the vote required to avoid a runoff in North Carolina, and it will be the first real test of success for Tillis, and for the McConnell strategy. The goal of all of these early machinations—and the millions in accompanying spending—is to clear Tillis's path by clearing the field. If Tillis doesn't hit the 40 percent mark, that effort fails. The contest suddenly becomes a one-on-one battle between an establishment favorite and an insurgent conservative, in a low-turnout race in the middle of the summer, no less. And that's when the contest could turn ugly, expensive, and politically costly.

In early April, just as the outside money was starting to get spent, all signs pointed to Tillis being comfortably ahead but still far from assured of avoiding a second round of voting in July. A poll commissioned by American Crossroads and conducted in mid-April found Tillis winning 27 percent of the vote—17 points ahead of Harris, and 11 points ahead of his other top rival, Greg Brannon, a FreedomWorks-backed obstetrician who characterizes himself as a "servant-citizen" steeped in constitutional principles. ("There's nobody in this race that understands the Constitution like I do. The only guy that's even close to me is Ted Cruz," he told National Journal.) Brannon had been unable to attend the Pinehurst event (he was in surgery), but in a town that doubles as a retirement mecca and a tea-party center, he nonetheless drew as many supporters as Tillis.

"You can buy TV, but the most persuasive deliverer of message is my neighbor," says Russ Walker, the national political director for FreedomWorks. To that end, he says, FreedomWorks volunteers have already knocked on 60,000 doors, planted 24,000 lawn signs, and made 100,000 phone calls on Brannon's behalf. "That kind of energy is key. One-on-one sells the candidate."

If Tillis finds himself stuck in a runoff, he'll have to split time between campaigning and overseeing the legislative session, which begins shortly after the primary. Wielding power in Raleigh while his opponent, be it Brannon or Harris, cultivates the grassroots, he'll look more than ever like an establishment candidate—and not in a way that's likely to help his cause.

"If we win the nomination in May, we win the race [against Hagan]. If we win it in July, we have to sing and dance at the same time," says Tillis strategist Brad Todd. "It gets complicated if we have a runoff. It means we have to do two things at one time."

But North Carolina is an expensive state for campaign advertising, with a very high financial threshold over which a candidate must climb to get his or her message out. Even as they view Tillis warily, outside conservative groups such as the Club for Growth and the Senate Conservatives Fund have kept their distance from the race, and barnstorming backers of his conservative rivals have been scarce. Brannon regularly mentions his support from Sen. Rand Paul, but the Kentuckian didn't commit to campaigning for him until the very end of the race. (Sen. Mike Lee, another supporter, campaigned for Brannon in March.) Harris touts his endorsement from former presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, but only Huckabee's wife campaigned for him in the primary's critical closing month.

And in Pinehurst that day, whatever the latest polls might have said or the number of boosters who turned out, the news of the National Right to Life endorsement made Tillis's campaign feel like a juggernaut. In the ballroom, Tillis predicted he had an "85 percent chance" of avoiding a runoff. If he's right, his success will be a sign of the resurgence of the McConnell political machine.
THE DEPLOYMENT

For Republicans hoping to win back the Senate majority, the stakes in the North Carolina primary are high. The race, in a diversifying Southern state featuring a cross section of important constituencies, is expected to be a bellwether for control of the upper chamber. But the flood-the-zone approach on Tillis's behalf is also an important test run for more-contentious battles to follow, where the establishment is actively taking on more-conservative competition.

The approach to each race is carefully crafted. In those featuring vulnerable incumbents, groups have hit the challengers hard, both on TV and with embarrassing opposition research. To help Sen. Thad Cochran of Mississippi, the National Republican Senatorial Committee circulated clips of old radio talk shows where his tea-party rival, state Sen. Chris McDaniel, made racially insensitive and sexist comments. To help Sen. Pat Roberts in Kansas, the committee hit his primary opponent, radiologist Milton Wolf, for posting comments about corpses on Facebook. Even the U.S. Chamber, which rarely goes on the attack, has aired ads portraying GOP challengers in Mississippi and Idaho as shady "trial lawyers." And a newly created super PAC with ties to GOP donors Sheldon Adelson and Paul Singer has attacked Rep. Phil Gingrey, who, despite being a House member, is viewed as one of the weakest candidates in the Georgia Senate race.

Establishment groups have also moved to boost their favored primary candidates, in North Carolina and beyond. Last month, the Chamber of Commerce endorsed Rep. Jack Kingston in the Georgia Senate primary, a crowded race that pits the party's establishment wing against the conservative grassroots. Kingston, an 11-term congressman and longtime House appropriator who is viewed skeptically by conservative groups, has nonetheless gained traction in recent primary polls. The Chamber also cut an ad featuring Mitt Romney's endorsement of Rep. Mike Simpson of Idaho, who is facing Club for Growth-backed opponent Bryan Smith.

McConnell himself is heavily favored to win his May 20 primary challenge against Matt Bevin, despite being the top target of several outside conservative groups. Very early in his race, McConnell aired an ad that hit the Senate Conservatives Fund for wasting donors' money and tarred Bevin as a hypocrite for once supporting the notorious Troubled Asset Relief Program, modeling the hard-hitting tactics that many outside groups, including the U.S. Chamber, have since adopted. Outside Money Pours Into GOP Primaries

"Right now, the establishment and their hired guns are firing at a level the challengers are not and cannot due to funding and less experience in politics," RedState Editor Erick Erickson wrote on his website this month, in light of the tea-party challengers' struggles. Erickson, who is backing several conservative primary challengers to sitting senators, added, "K Street is pouring money into these races in a way the grassroots have never fundraised. The establishment intends to cling to their precious."

The most critical test of the establishment's firepower against the Right will come June 3 in Mississippi, where Cochran faces the toughest threat of his 42-year congressional career. Outside conservative groups are united behind McDaniel, who fashions himself as the Jim DeMint of the state Legislature, and they have spent more than $1 million to defeat Cochran. Democrats, sensing a rare opportunity to contest a seat in Mississippi, have recruited former Rep. Travis Childers, a moderate Blue Dog who voted against Obamacare and who won a House seat in a deeply conservative district in 2008 by overcoming weak Republican opposition.

"The political environment favors McDaniel, and sometimes it's hard to overcome the political environment, one that's sick of Washington," says Henry Barbour, who is running the pro-Cochran super PAC Mississippi Conservatives (and who is the nephew of former Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour). "It's understandable that Americans are mad at Washington and want great change, but I can tell you that the quickest way to change Washington is to make sure Republicans take control."
THE FINAL BATTLE

Navigating a primary successfully is, of course, a necessary but not sufficient condition for ensuring that a candidate will win the general. The logic that underpins the establishment's idea of who's electable does not always hold. In 2012, for example, even some of the establishment candidates for the Senate who didn't face serious primaries, such as Montana's Denny Rehberg and North Dakota's Rick Berg, performed poorly in the general election. They were chosen in part because they had served in Congress—a credential that insiders thought made them great picks—and yet they lost.

Democrats say they are confident that if Tillis wins the nomination, the state Legislature's sharp turn rightward will provide them with ample fodder to portray him as combining the GOP's two biggest general-election vulnerabilities: being beholden to the Far Right, and being closely associated with the political establishment. These days, they argue, tea-party voters aren't the only ones who consider professional politicians to be toxic; anti-Washington sentiment is pervasive, and establishment Republicans who manage to leap out of the primary frying pan will find themselves facing the fire in the general election.

(Democrats have the same problems with Washington veterans. In Democratic-held open seats in Iowa and Michigan, Reps. Bruce Braley and Gary Peters have struggled despite their political experience. By contrast, Alison Lundergan Grimes and Michelle Nunn are both making headway in Kentucky and Georgia, running as political outsiders.) "It comes down to experience and a path to beating Kay Hagan. Our goal is to beat Kay Hagan."

As House speaker, Tillis passed bills that enraged the state's liberal base, including new abortion regulations, concealed-carry gun measures, cuts to unemployment benefits, and tighter voter-ID rules. When the Legislature is in session, liberal groups hold weekly demonstrations, known as Moral Mondays, at the state Capitol in Raleigh, protesting the conservative body's actions. If she faces Tillis, Hagan's plan will be to tie him to the actions of the Legislature at every turn, and, in a sense, give voters in the urban centers of Raleigh, Durham, and Charlotte a chance to deliver a referendum on the rural-and-suburban-dominated General Assembly. "The way that Kay Hagan is successful is … [by making] this election about local issues," says Jackson, the Democratic strategist, who isn't affiliated with Hagan's campaign. "Make it about Tillis as much as possible: education, corporate tax cuts, teacher pay."

But in an illustration of how Tillis's ties to Raleigh could also hurt him on the right, Senate Majority PAC, a Democratic super PAC supporting Hagan, went up in April with a TV spot that references two separate extramarital affairs that then-Tillis staffers had with lobbyists; the staffers reportedly received severance payments from Tillis. Hagan's campaign also aired an ad on country-music and Christian radio stations that mentions the scandal and suggests, using an out-of-context quote, that Tillis praised Obamacare. Both ads are aimed at making conservatives think twice about Tillis—and thereby holding his share of the primary vote under 40 percent.

Whether or not the results of Tillis's race and the slew of those that follow lead to a Republican majority in the Senate, they will determine the new balance of power within the GOP. If the scorched-earth primary strategy succeeds, the establishment will be emboldened, as House Speaker John Boehner has been, to take on the tea party more aggressively than ever. If it fails—or even half-succeeds—then the tea party remains unvanquished and returns to fight another day.

In Pinehurst, Tillis didn't appear to be holding his breath, but he might have been the only one in Republican politics who wasn't, and the weeks that followed brought no reason for either side to exhale. By April 29, a Civitas Institute Poll found Tillis with 38 percent of the primary vote, a hair shy of what he needed to avoid a runoff. Brannon trailed him with 17 percent, and Harris followed with 14. That same day, Tillis officially received his prized endorsement, and the promise of "significant" ad buys, from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce—coupled with the backing of North Carolina's unpopular governor, Pat McCrory. The McConnell strategy's first big test was nigh.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 05:18:15 am
Quote
Electability was trumping ideological purity—just as the establishment had planned.


What good does unelectable ideological purity do for anyone?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 05:23:55 am


What good does unelectable ideological purity do for anyone?

Going to respond to myself.

If ideological purity trumps electability, then the ideologically pure should be thrilled to lose campaigns and remain pure.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 05:54:06 am
Going to respond to myself.

If ideological purity trumps electability, then the ideologically pure should be thrilled to lose campaigns and remain pure.

http://emp.byui.edu/DavisR/202/Libertarians.htm
Russell Kirk wrote "Chirping Sectaries" about the extremely ideological Libertarians in 1981, but it reads much like the "real conservatives" of today.

Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: massadvj on May 03, 2014, 01:33:01 pm
It looks to me like the Tea Party challengers are being good sparring partners, forcing the establishment to rethink strategy and adapt to the new environment.  That's a good thing.  In case anyone hadn't noticed, the party has some serious image issues to deal with.  Primary challenges force our people to get in shape for the general election.  That's the way it works.  No one should step aside and give a candidate a free ride for the sake of "party unity."  If someone's vulnerable, then he needs to fix it, or suffer the consequences of his vulnerability.  That is as true for the conservatives as it is for the moderates.


Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 02:03:44 pm
It looks to me like the Tea Party challengers are being good sparring partners, forcing the establishment to rethink strategy and adapt to the new environment.  That's a good thing.  In case anyone hadn't noticed, the party has some serious image issues to deal with.  Primary challenges force our people to get in shape for the general election.  That's the way it works.  No one should step aside and give a candidate a free ride for the sake of "party unity."  If someone's vulnerable, then he needs to fix it, or suffer the consequences of his vulnerability.  That is as true for the conservatives as it is for the moderates.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

By the same token, once candidates win the Survivor contest that is the primary system, everyone who claims to be a registered Republican needs to work toward the one goal of helping that candidate win the general election.

I get crazy when I start reading all the complaints from one faction of the party or another about the GOP never choosing a "true" conservative to run.

The person who wins the primary is the winner of the votes. If conservatives want a "true" conservative in the general election, they must put up a candidate who can (at least) win the primary.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: MACVSOG68 on May 03, 2014, 02:14:37 pm
It looks to me like the Tea Party challengers are being good sparring partners, forcing the establishment to rethink strategy and adapt to the new environment.  That's a good thing.  In case anyone hadn't noticed, the party has some serious image issues to deal with.  Primary challenges force our people to get in shape for the general election.  That's the way it works.  No one should step aside and give a candidate a free ride for the sake of "party unity."  If someone's vulnerable, then he needs to fix it, or suffer the consequences of his vulnerability.  That is as true for the conservatives as it is for the moderates.

Don't disagree in general.  Primary challenges can have both positive and negative impacts.  Yes they can force a moderate to move closer to his wing.  OTOH, it can devolve into a Keystone Cops free-for-all as it did in the 2012 presidential primary debates.  It also serves to save a lot of effort on the part of the opponents.  But it's better than the alternative.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 03:05:27 pm
It looks to me like the Tea Party challengers are being good sparring partners, forcing the establishment to rethink strategy and adapt to the new environment.  That's a good thing.  In case anyone hadn't noticed, the party has some serious image issues to deal with.  Primary challenges force our people to get in shape for the general election.  That's the way it works.  No one should step aside and give a candidate a free ride for the sake of "party unity."  If someone's vulnerable, then he needs to fix it, or suffer the consequences of his vulnerability.  That is as true for the conservatives as it is for the moderates.

Leader McConnell was less vulnerable before millions of dollars were spent by "conservative" groups against him.  How many times have I read "conservatives" write McConnell, McCain, and Graham should step aside? 
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: 240B on May 03, 2014, 03:14:21 pm
Leader McConnell was less vulnerable before millions of dollars were spent by "conservative" groups against him.  How many times have I read "conservatives" write McConnell, McCain, and Graham should step aside?

I would actively vote for the Democrat, before I would vote for any one of those guys you listed. And yes, I am part of the 'conservative' groups fighting them.
 
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.
 
When McConnell said, 'We will crush the Tea Party', I took that to mean that he was saying, 'To hell with real Republicans! To hell with the American people! *I* am the RULER here!'
 
Well, if that is how he feels, we will just see about that, won't we.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: MACVSOG68 on May 03, 2014, 03:26:55 pm
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.


Integrity and politics are like oil and water, no matter how ideologically pure one's particular segment of the political environment he walks on.  Both McCain and Romney had their faults for sure, but any suggestion they would have traveled down the same path as Obama is absurd.  And to double down on that absurdity, does anyone think McConnell and Reid would handle the Senate in the same way? 
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: 240B on May 03, 2014, 03:31:24 pm
I both supported and voted for Romney. And I would vote for him again today. I tried to support McCain but he is such a freakin weirdo, I couldn't. And everytime I went to one of his rallies, all he wanted to talk about was what a great guy Obama is. McCain was a joke.
 
I do not lump Romney in with the that crowd. It is a national tragedy that Romney was not elected. IMO
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: alicewonders on May 03, 2014, 03:52:49 pm
I both supported and voted for Romney. And I would vote for him again today. I tried to support McCain but he is such a freakin weirdo, I couldn't. And everytime I went to one of his rallies, all he wanted to talk about was what a great guy Obama is. McCain was a joke.
 
I do not lump Romney in with the that crowd. It is a national tragedy that Romney was not elected. IMO

Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: 240B on May 03, 2014, 03:54:29 pm
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.


Integrity and politics are like oil and water, no matter how ideologically pure one's particular segment of the political environment he walks on.  Both McCain and Romney had their faults for sure, but any suggestion they would have traveled down the same path as Obama is absurd.  And to double down on that absurdity, does anyone think McConnell and Reid would handle the Senate in the same way?

Yes. The Republicans once owned the House the Senate and the President, and they did absolutely nothing. Everything stayed just exactly the same. Same IRS, same U.N. same EPA and NEA, same everything. In fact in some ways, it got worse. It was like nothing happened. Everything stayed exactly the same as it has been for decades, with Dems or Pubs running the circus.
 
If you think establishment Republicans are going to do anything or change anything, well then I would have to disagree. They are all DNC/RNC status quo club.
 
Democrats want to rush to off the cliff at 100 miles an hour. Establishment Republicans agree about going the same direction and going off the same cliff, no problem there. The only difference is that they want to do it at 50 miles an hour.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 03, 2014, 03:58:12 pm

Yes. The Republicans once owned the House the Senate and the President, and they did absolutely nothing. Everything stayed just exactly the same. Same IRS, same U.N. same EPA and NEA, same everything. In fact in some ways, it got worse. It was like nothing happened. Everything stayed exactly the same as it has been for decades, with Dems or Pubs running the circus.
 
If you think establishment Republicans are going to do anything or change anything, well then I would have to disagree. They are all DNC/RNC status quo club.
 
Democrats want to rush to off the cliff at 100 miles an hour. Establishment Republicans agree about going the same direction and going off the same cliff, no problem there. The only difference is that they want to do it at 50 miles an hour.

You may be too generous in your estimate of speed, I'm thinking more like 75-80 miles per hour for the GOPe.  lol
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 03, 2014, 03:59:53 pm
Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

That is my opinion as well, and I will never be convinced otherwise.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: 240B on May 03, 2014, 04:06:06 pm
Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

Of course what you say is true. But the fraud will be much, much, worse in the next election. There is so much corruption and secret deals, outright theft, crime, and other skeletons in government under Obama, that 'the establishment' on both sides has to get someone elected who will keep all the bodies buryed. That is why they must elect Hillary. She is just as wicked and corrupt as all of them, and they can trust her to keep her mouth shut.
 
This next election is 'life or death' for the corrupt criminals running the government today. Can you imagine how many 'revelations' and tell-all books would be written after Obama leaves, unless "they" can get an agent in the White House to keep a lid on it?
 
They are going to simply ignore any laws or rules and pump as many fake votes as they can into the election. This next election will see a tsunami of voter fraud, the likes of which has never been seen before in America.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Bigun on May 03, 2014, 04:18:38 pm
Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

Spot on Alice! 

Well said!
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: MACVSOG68 on May 03, 2014, 04:45:47 pm

Yes. The Republicans once owned the House the Senate and the President, and they did absolutely nothing. Everything stayed just exactly the same. Same IRS, same U.N. same EPA and NEA, same everything. In fact in some ways, it got worse. It was like nothing happened. Everything stayed exactly the same as it has been for decades, with Dems or Pubs running the circus.
 
If you think establishment Republicans are going to do anything or change anything, well then I would have to disagree. They are all DNC/RNC status quo club.
 
Democrats want to rush to off the cliff at 100 miles an hour. Establishment Republicans agree about going the same direction and going off the same cliff, no problem there. The only difference is that they want to do it at 50 miles an hour.

Part of the traditional conservative ideology is to resist change and reduce the unintended consequences.  No Republican, regardless of where in the party you classify them, voted for Obamacare.  The unintended consequences were obvious from the beginning.  But conservative philosophy doesn't prevent change.  We may well at some point simplify the tax code, but no serious politician is simply calling for abolishing the IRS.  We should put more pressure on the UN, especially some of its commissions, but no serious politician is going to pull us out of the organization.  We should cut back on the vast regulatory schemes hatched by Democrats, but no serious politician is going to abolish the EPA, because clean air and clean water seem to be a priority with Americans today.

As I asked earlier, does anyone think that either McCain or Romney would have governed as has Obama, and in 2012 the conservative forums were full of "No difference between Romney and Obama". And does anyone seriously think that McConnell would be no different from Reid?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 08:05:41 pm

I would actively vote for the Democrat, before I would vote for any one of those guys you listed. And yes, I am part of the 'conservative' groups fighting them.
 
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.
 
When McConnell said, 'We will crush the Tea Party', I took that to mean that he was saying, 'To hell with real Republicans! To hell with the American people! *I* am the RULER here!'
 
Well, if that is how he feels, we will just see about that, won't we.

Real conservatives vote rat.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 08:06:54 pm
There was voter fraud, but to believe that was THE reason why Romney lost the election is very naive.

Romney had a lot to do with Romney losing the election.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/334783.php
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 08:13:24 pm

I would actively vote for the Democrat, before I would vote for any one of those guys you listed. And yes, I am part of the 'conservative' groups fighting them.
 
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.
 
When McConnell said, 'We will crush the Tea Party', I took that to mean that he was saying, 'To hell with real Republicans! To hell with the American people! *I* am the RULER here!'
 
Well, if that is how he feels, we will just see about that, won't we.

So, when you voted Democrat five years ago, did you imagine that Romney would have this country where it is right now?

And are you proud of helping give the Democrats the supermajority they needed to shove Obamacare down our throats?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 08:15:53 pm

I would actively vote for the Democrat, before I would vote for any one of those guys you listed. And yes, I am part of the 'conservative' groups fighting them.
 
If you vote Democrat, or vote for any of these guys, you wind up with the same thing. At least in voting Democrat, I will have my integrity.
 
When McConnell said, 'We will crush the Tea Party', I took that to mean that he was saying, 'To hell with real Republicans! To hell with the American people! *I* am the RULER here!'
 
Well, if that is how he feels, we will just see about that, won't we.

This is starting to have the feel of  Jeff Foxworthy routine.

You're not a real Republican if ________.

You're not a real conservative if ________.

Jeff's way funnier however.

I love your logic.

It's like thinking "if I walk through door "A" I may get f#^%*d up the a%$, and if I  walk through door "B" I WILL get  f#^%*d up the a%$, but I'll get popcorn... I'LL TAKE DOOR B!!!!"
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 08:16:29 pm

Yes. The Republicans once owned the House the Senate and the President, and they did absolutely nothing. Everything stayed just exactly the same. Same IRS, same U.N. same EPA and NEA, same everything. In fact in some ways, it got worse. It was like nothing happened. Everything stayed exactly the same as it has been for decades, with Dems or Pubs running the circus.

Have you noticed how Obama kept Gitmo open, resigned the Patriot Act, and extended and made permanent the Bush Tax Cuts?  Do you know why?  It's a rhetorical question. 
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 03, 2014, 08:33:54 pm
Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

That is my opinion as well, and I will never be convinced otherwise.

W O R D

I will never understand how the number of Potential Voters DECREASED by approximately 10 million in 2012.

Anybody, anybody???  Bueller...
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 08:57:17 pm
Agree.  Romney was not my first pick, and he is more moderate than I prefer - but in the end I enthusiastically supported him because I knew he would be a good president.  In my opinion, the reason he isn't president today is because of massive voter fraud. 

One only has to look at the cover-up of Benghazi to see one example of fraud - anything - and baby I mean ANYTHING was done to get that SOB bony-assed imposter-in-chief re-elected.  The saddest thing is that so few on our side are willing to call them out on it!

That is my opinion as well, and I will never be convinced otherwise.

W O R D

I will never understand how the number of Potential Voters DECREASED by approximately 10 million in 2012.

Anybody, anybody???  Bueller...

That's the first time that I've heard that.

Can you give me some links and background?

I tried Googling a decrease in potential voters in 2012 and got nothing.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 09:12:00 pm
That's the first time that I've heard that.

Can you give me some links and background?

I tried Googling a decrease in potential voters in 2012 and got nothing.

according to http://bipartisanpolicy.org/library/report/2012-voter-turnout

Quote
Despite an increase of over eight million citizens in the eligible population, turnout declined from 131 million voters in 2008 to an estimated 126 million voters in 2012 when all ballots are tallied. Some 93 million eligible citizens did not vote.

They are saying there were 8 million more eligible voters in 2012 over 2008
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: EC on May 03, 2014, 09:21:10 pm
They are saying there were 8 million more eligible voters in 2012 over 2008

And 6 million people less turned out. Can understand it - 2008 was history. 2012 was "same old story."
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 09:30:57 pm
according to http://bipartisanpolicy.org/library/report/2012-voter-turnout

They are saying there were 8 million more eligible voters in 2012 over 2008

"Voter turnout" and a decrease in "potential voters" as stated in evadR2's post are not anywhere near the same topic.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 03, 2014, 09:36:27 pm
I posted this sometime back on GBR. Let me find it.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 09:39:32 pm
according to http://bipartisanpolicy.org/library/report/2012-voter-turnout

They are saying there were 8 million more eligible voters in 2012 over 2008

Eight million more eligible voters means 8 million more potential voters. 

That's not a decrease in potential voters. That's an increase in potential voters.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 03, 2014, 09:42:43 pm
I found post #108 and it doesn't have the link...I'll find it

Polls do not account for fraud.

The shrinkage of the voter age population from 2008 to 2012 is a mystery to me.

2008..Voting Age Pop=229,945,000..Turnout=131,407,000.
2012..Voting age pop=211,731,000..Turnout=121,745,000.

Why after decades of consistent increased voting age population did it decrease from 229,945,000 in 2008 to 211,731,000 in 2012????

Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 03, 2014, 09:49:04 pm
Here tiz..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 03, 2014, 09:49:07 pm
I found post #108 and it doesn't have the link...I'll find it

Polls do not account for fraud.

The shrinkage of the voter age population from 2008 to 2012 is a mystery to me.

2008..Voting Age Pop=229,945,000..Turnout=131,407,000.
2012..Voting age pop=211,731,000..Turnout=121,745,000.

Why after decades of consistent increased voting age population did it decrease from 229,945,000 in 2008 to 211,731,000 in 2012????

The accelerating rate of deaths in baby boomers coupled with a five decade long drop in births is catching up to us.

Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Bigun on May 03, 2014, 10:05:14 pm
That's the first time that I've heard that.

Can you give me some links and background?

I tried Googling a decrease in potential voters in 2012 and got nothing.

I posted information here about all that some time back. Let me see if I can find it.

I do remember what I thought the cause was and will say it again here. Southern Baptists who would not vote for Obama and couldn't bring themselves to vote for Romney because of his religion.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 03, 2014, 10:11:34 pm
I posted information here about all that some time back. Let me see if I can find it.

I do remember what I thought the cause was and will say it again here. Southern Baptists who would not vote for Obama and couldn't bring themselves to vote for Romney because of his religion.

I don't know if the term "Voting Age Population" makes a difference but it's the first time it has happened, according to the link I posted.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 03, 2014, 10:20:20 pm
And 6 million people less turned out. Can understand it - 2008 was history. 2012 was "same old story."

McCain and Romney got about the same number of votes. 60.6 million for Romney and McCain got 59.9 million votes.  Obama lost 6 million but they didn't vote GOP.  They just didn't vote.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Bigun on May 03, 2014, 10:22:28 pm
That's the first time that I've heard that.

Can you give me some links and background?

I tried Googling a decrease in potential voters in 2012 and got nothing.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,88131.msg350455.html#msg350455

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,88504.msg354092.html#msg354092

Follow the thread from there.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: EC on May 03, 2014, 10:26:17 pm
McCain and Romney got about the same number of votes. 60.6 million for Romney and McCain got 59.9 million votes.  Obama lost 6 million but they didn't vote GOP.  They just didn't vote.

Good point. Now - how to turn those disaffected Obama voters into votes for our side?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 04:13:25 am
I found post #108 and it doesn't have the link...I'll find it

Polls do not account for fraud.

The shrinkage of the voter age population from 2008 to 2012 is a mystery to me.

2008..Voting Age Pop=229,945,000..Turnout=131,407,000.
2012..Voting age pop=211,731,000..Turnout=121,745,000.

Why after decades of consistent increased voting age population did it decrease from 229,945,000 in 2008 to 211,731,000 in 2012????

In 1990, there were 4,179,000 live births in the US. Those babies turned 18 in 2008.

In 1994 there were 3,979,000 live births in the US. Those babies turned 18 in 2012.

Quote
U.S. deaths surpassed 2.5 million for the first time last year, reflecting the nation's growing and aging population.

The increase of about 45,000 more deaths than in 2010 was not surprising. The annual number of deaths has been generally rising for decades as the population has swelled.

"If you have an older population, of course you have more deaths," said Qian Cai, a University of Virginia demographer who studies population trends. "That doesn't mean the population is less healthy or less vital."

Before last year, the largest number of deaths was 2.47 million in 2008. The number of deaths can jump up or down from year to year, depending on whether there was a bad flu season or other factors.

Our population continues to increase as a result of immigration, but newly-arrived immigrants are not eligible voters.

In 2008, the death rate for baby boomers was one every 49.5 seconds. Today that death rate stands at one every 26.2 seconds. It will continue to speed up until the boomer population dwindles down to nearly nothing.

There are a whole lot of factors impacting our declining population that would address the changes in those eligible voter numbers way more efficiently and intelligently than massive voter fraud.

(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/130905181827-united-states-birthrate-620xa.png)
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Carling on May 04, 2014, 04:54:52 am
Real conservatives vote rat.

The most pure vote a real conservative can cast is for a pro-abortion/pro-Marxist Democrat, if the GOP candidate isn't a real conservative.   :silly:
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 05:55:14 am
I found post #108 and it doesn't have the link...I'll find it

Polls do not account for fraud.

The shrinkage of the voter age population from 2008 to 2012 is a mystery to me.

2008..Voting Age Pop=229,945,000..Turnout=131,407,000.
2012..Voting age pop=211,731,000..Turnout=121,745,000.

Why after decades of consistent increased voting age population did it decrease from 229,945,000 in 2008 to 211,731,000 in 2012????

Your figures are incorrect:

Voting age population 2008 = 230,872,030 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html
Voting age population 2012 = 240,926,957 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

It took me a while to find out, and I had almost decided that all my other research must have been it, when I realized that I had not considered the possibility of your numbers being wrong.

It looks like they were.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 04, 2014, 06:00:09 am
Your figures are incorrect:

Voting age population 2008 = 230,872,030 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html
Voting age population 2012 = 240,926,957 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

It took me a while to find out, and I had almost decided that all my other research must have been it, when I realized that I had not considered the possibility of your numbers being wrong.

It looks like they were.
Thanks for the investigative work. 
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 04, 2014, 06:10:09 am
The most pure vote a real conservative can cast is for a pro-abortion/pro-Marxist Democrat, if the GOP candidate isn't a real conservative.   :silly:
One of two candidates will win in 2016.  One is more evil, and one is less evil.  Pick your candidate.  It is a tough decision for real conservatives.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 11:46:04 am
Your figures are incorrect:

Voting age population 2008 = 230,872,030 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html
Voting age population 2012 = 240,926,957 http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

It took me a while to find out, and I had almost decided that all my other research must have been it, when I realized that I had not considered the possibility of your numbers being wrong.

It looks like they were.

Did you look at the link? You're saying the info from that link is wrong? Wonder why the big difference?
If the wiki link has wrong information, I'd like to know.


Election   Voting Age Population (VAP)
(thousands)[1]   Turnout
(thousands)[1]    % Turnout of VAP[2][1]
1789         
1792         
1796         
1800         
1804         
1808         
1812         
1816         
1820         
1824         
1828         57.6%
1832         55.4%
1836         57.8%
1840         80.2%
1844         78.9%
1848         72.7%
1852         69.6%
1856         78.9%
1860         81.2%
1864         73.8%
1868         78.1%
1872         71.3%
1876         81.8%
1880         79.4%
1884         77.5%
1888         79.3%
1892         74.7%
1896         79.3%
1900         73.2%
1904         65.2%
1908         65.4%
1912         58.8%
1916         61.6%
1920         49.2%
1924         48.9%
1928         56.9%
1932   75,768   39,817   52.6%
1936   80,174   45,647   56.9%
1940   84,728   49,815   58.8%
1944   85,654   48,026   56.1%
1948   95,573   48,834   51.1%
1952   99,929   61,552   61.6%
1956   104,515   62,027   59.3%
1960   109,672   68,836   62.8%
1964   114,090   70,098   61.4%
1968   120,285   73,027   60.7%
1972   140,777   77,625   55.1%
1976   152,308   81,603   53.6%
1980   163,945   86,497   52.8%
1984   173,995   92,655   53.3%
1988   181,956   91,587   50.3%
1992   189,493   104,600   55.2%
1996   196,789   96,390   49.0%
2000   209,787   105,594   50.3%
2004   219,553   122,349   55.7%
2008   229,945   131,407   57.1%
2012   211,731   121,745   57.5%
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 11:57:09 am
I guess we can just sum it up as bad information from Wikipedia but I have always considered them a fairly reasonable source.  And, since we're dealing with RATs and fraud in the 2012 election, I thought it very curious that the number of people of voting age had actually decreased from 2008.  Maybe that's why, it didn't happen.

Bad Wiki???
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 12:04:53 pm
I guess we can just sum it up as bad information from Wikipedia but I have always considered them a fairly reasonable source.  And, since we're dealing with RATs and fraud in the 2012 election, I thought it very curious that the number of people of voting age had actually decreased from 2008.  Maybe that's why, it didn't happen.

Bad Wiki???

And then we had this...

"McCain and Romney got about the same number of votes. 60.6 million for Romney and McCain got 59.9 million votes.  Obama lost 6 million but they didn't vote GOP.  They just didn't vote."

Let's assume these numbers are correct, and Romney got his ass spanked. And we're to believe it's because our people didn't bother to vote.
I don't buy it. People were itching to vote Obama out. Only one answer makes sense to me and it's what dims do best, FRAUD.
That one I'll buy.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 12:16:27 pm
Actually, I thought Obama lost 8 million but with all these different numbers floating around, who knows.

My hypothesis: Republicans did vote and "something" happened to the voting process.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 02:30:03 pm
Actually, I thought Obama lost 8 million but with all these different numbers floating around, who knows.

My hypothesis: Republicans did vote and "something" happened to the voting process.

You can choose to continue believing that there was fraud of that magnitude, but I don't believe it happened.

The other unlikely thing that you can choose to believe is that what voter fraud there is, is the only carried out by one Party. I'm not so naive to buy into the white hat/black hat notion of politics.

In fact, one of the most recent stories about voting irregularities happened in the very red State of Alabama.

http://blog.al.com/wire/2014/04/some_alabama_counties_have_mor.html (http://blog.al.com/wire/2014/04/some_alabama_counties_have_mor.html)

I suggest that you take time to read this:

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/334783.php (http://ace.mu.nu/archives/334783.php)

The Obama machine in 2008 had the "historic election" advantage, an innovative and very aggressive ground game and McCain as an opponent in their favor. In 2012 they had the same ground game and GOP voter apathy in their favor.

No voter fraud investigation has turned up any sign or evidence of massive voter fraud to the degree that would translate into millions of votes.

IF there has been voter fraud of the magnitude that you're suggesting, and the GOP isn't up in arms about it, it's because A) they're too stupid to figure it out, or B) complicit in the fraud. In either case then we, and the nation, are thoroughly, thoroughly screwed.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 02:40:57 pm
Actually, I thought Obama lost 8 million but with all these different numbers floating around, who knows.

My hypothesis: Republicans did vote and "something" happened to the voting process.

Here's one more, very important thing to consider.

As the baby boomer death rate picks up the GOP loses likely GOP voters, as older voters tend to vote Republican. Young voters entering the ranks of eligible voters by turning 18, tend to vote Democrat.

THAT'S why the GOP keeps moving toward a less traditionally conservative platform. If they don't swell their ranks with younger voters, chances for national election victories diminish with every baby boomer death.

Years ago libertarianism was a joke. Today is running rampant throughout the country.

THAT is the consequence of the younger voters entering the political arena, and old farts like me being fed up with both traditional parties.

That is where the GOP needs to turn their attention to.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: DCPatriot on May 04, 2014, 02:55:11 pm
Luis....Luis....Luis.

Sitting here in amazement that somebody with the wit and intellect you possess, can appear so naive.  Thought only women did that to us.  LOL!

In the digital world it's not inconceivable that machines can be rigged to the point that at regular patterns, votes can be assigned to another candidate.

There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE.

Any Christian Democrat or Republican can plainly see that Romney is the kind of man any boy would want to grow up to be....and any old man wished he had been.   Especially when held up to Barack Hussein Obama.

Might not have a degree in political science, but I have a Master's in common sense.   :patriot:
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 03:00:03 pm
good points, worth considering.
I will look at those links.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 03:12:31 pm
Luis....Luis....Luis.

Sitting here in amazement that somebody with the wit and intellect you possess, can appear so naive.  Thought only women did that to us.  LOL!

In the digital world it's not inconceivable that machines can be rigged to the point that at regular patterns, votes can be assigned to another candidate.

There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE.

Any Christian Democrat or Republican can plainly see that Romney is the kind of man any boy would want to grow up to be....and any old man wished he had been.   Especially when held up to Barack Hussein Obama.

Might not have a degree in political science, but I have a Master's in common sense.   :patriot:

Yet, they appeared to have done just that.

You assume that every voter has the same determination, degree of political awareness and acumen that we have.

The sad reality is that we are the minority, and the majority is more aware of what goes on in the multiple Kardashian households than in DC.

Five million people stayed home because, to paraphrase B.B. King... the thrill was gone.

Electing a black president for the first time was cool, the second tie was boring already.

Never underestimate the degree of American voter apathy out there.

Think about this.

Congress has an approval rating of @13%.

Most incumbents in Congress will be re-elected.

Hmmmm...
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 03:36:43 pm
Luis....Luis....Luis.

Sitting here in amazement that somebody with the wit and intellect you possess, can appear so naive.  Thought only women did that to us.  LOL!

In the digital world it's not inconceivable that machines can be rigged to the point that at regular patterns, votes can be assigned to another candidate.

There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE.

Any Christian Democrat or Republican can plainly see that Romney is the kind of man any boy would want to grow up to be....and any old man wished he had been.   Especially when held up to Barack Hussein Obama.

Might not have a degree in political science, but I have a Master's in common sense.   :patriot:

BTW..

The naivete would then be the idea that voting at all would make a difference.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 03:40:28 pm
"There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE."

WORD!!

And, although I don't have a whole lot of respect for the average republican voter, I'm not ready to relegate them to the status of LIVs.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 03:51:16 pm
Probably doesn't happen often but, It Does Happen:

Elections Won By One Vote

The races won by a single vote, in addition to the new 1910 Congressional election in New York, according to Mulligan and Hunter, were:

a 1982 state House election in Maine in which the victor won 1,387 votes to the loser’s 1,386 votes
a 1982 state Senate race in Massachusetts in which the victor won 5,352 votes to the loser’s 5,351; a subsequent recount late found wider margin
a 1980 state House race in Utah in which the victor won 1,931 votes to the loser’s 1,930 votes
a 1978 state Senate race in North Dakota in which the victor won 2,459 votes to the loser’s 2,458 votes; a subsequent recount found the margin to be six votes
a 1970 state House race in Rhode Island in which the victor won 1,760 votes to the loser’s 1,759
a 1970 state House race in Missouri in which the victor won 4,819 votes to the loser’s 4,818 votes
and a 1968 state House race in Wisconsin in which the victor won 6,522 votes to the loser’s 6,521 votes; a subsequent recount found the margin to be two votes, not one.
A 1978 race for Rhode Island state Senate was tied at 4,110 votes, and decided by a second runoff election. So was a 1980 race for New Mexico state House, at 2,327 votes for each candidate.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 03:55:36 pm
"There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE."

WORD!!

And, although I don't have a whole lot of respect for the average republican voter, I'm not ready to relegate them to the status of LIVs.

I don't see a dime's worth of difference between millions staying home in 2012, and millions voting for Perot 20 years earlier.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 04:00:18 pm
...anyway, even a Maryland voter like myself who feels totally disenfranchised, has never failed to vote. Probably naive to think it means anything but I'd rather go down fighting.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 04:01:49 pm
...anyway, even a Maryland voter like myself who feels totally disenfranchised, has never failed to vote. Probably naive to think it means anything but I'd rather go down fighting.

And that's the only way to go.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 04:04:46 pm
...anyway, even a Maryland voter like myself who feels totally disenfranchised, has never failed to vote. Probably naive to think it means anything but I'd rather go down fighting.

Maryland!

I was up there last month.

EAT BERTHA'S MUSSELS!
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 04:06:47 pm
I don't see a dime's worth of difference between millions staying home in 2012, and millions voting for Perot 20 years earlier.
Perot was the quintessential example of democrat triangulation. The basic strategy has reared it's ugly head ever since.
Dims pull every trick in the book to split the republican vote, and it works, and they know it works.
But, I see we're in a pointless cycle of difference of opinion so, I'll back out.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: MACVSOG68 on May 04, 2014, 04:19:55 pm
Perot was the quintessential example of democrat triangulation. The basic strategy has reared it's ugly head ever since.
Dims pull every trick in the book to split the republican vote, and it works, and they know it works.
But, I see we're in a pointless cycle of difference of opinion so, I'll back out.

I think the Republicans are more than capable of conducting a circular firing squad.  Democrats can occasionally assist with crossover voting in primaries, but Perot "stole" votes away from both parties relatively equally, so I'm not sure that Clinton gained much, though the debate still goes on after more than 20 years.  In 2012 the Dems didn't have to do anything until Romney was last man standing, and even then, his primary opponents did most of the work for them.  Both parties seem to have the same ideas for 2016.  **nononono*
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 04, 2014, 04:45:24 pm
Luis....Luis....Luis.

Sitting here in amazement that somebody with the wit and intellect you possess, can appear so naive.  Thought only women did that to us.  LOL!

In the digital world it's not inconceivable that machines can be rigged to the point that at regular patterns, votes can be assigned to another candidate.

There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE.

Any Christian Democrat or Republican can plainly see that Romney is the kind of man any boy would want to grow up to be....and any old man wished he had been.   Especially when held up to Barack Hussein Obama.

Might not have a degree in political science, but I have a Master's in common sense.   :patriot:

Exactly, DC, exactly.  I think that even a HS diploma in common sense is enough.

There is no reasonable way to explain that all of the people thoroughly disgusted in 2010 (enough to the point of providing the largest Republican takeover in many decades, especially if you look at the governorships, and state & local elections), all decided it was much better in 2012.  No.  In fact, there were even more people even more thoroughly disgusted in 2012 than 2010 (as logic and reality would dictate).  They didn't stay home because they didn't want to vote for a Mormon.  They would have voted for a Martian if they had to.  I also know what I saw, both with my own eyes and from reports of family members and associates all across the country -- Romney-Ryan were SRO, people were lined up for blocks in parking lots all over just to hear the PA or get a glimpse of the rally on a jumbotron.  All over the country (including many swing states), people were lining up HOURS before the rallies.  Contrast that to the widely reported (at least in the alternative media) fact that they had to pay people with food and vouchers and bus them into to the incumbent's rallies.  Yup, I am supposed to believe that they all just decided to stay home.  lol
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Exactly, DC, exactly.  I think that even a HS diploma in common sense is enough.

There is no reasonable way to explain that all of the people thoroughly disgusted in 2010 (enough to the point of providing the largest Republican takeover in many decades, especially if you look at the governorships, and state & local elections), all decided it was much better in 2012.  No.  In fact, there were even more people even more thoroughly disgusted in 2012 than 2010 (as logic and reality would dictate).  They didn't stay home because they didn't want to vote for a Mormon.  They would have voted for a Martian if they had to.  I also know what I saw, both with my own eyes and from reports of family members and associates all across the country -- Romney-Ryan were SRO, people were lined up for blocks in parking lots all over just to hear the PA or get a glimpse of the rally on a jumbotron.  All over the country (including many swing states), people were lining up HOURS before the rallies.  Contrast that to the widely reported (at least in the alternative media) fact that they had to pay people with food and vouchers and bus them into to the incumbent's rallies.  Yup, I am supposed to believe that they all just decided to stay home.  lol

There is a vast sea of difference between "no reasonable way" and "no way that I will ever accept".

The later has been proclaimed by more than a few times on this thread.

We should at least try and remain generally honest about where we stand.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 04, 2014, 04:52:41 pm
"There's no effing way 5 MILLION people stayed home in spite, having lived through sh*t for 4 years already.  NONE."

WORD!!

And, although I don't have a whole lot of respect for the average republican voter, I'm not ready to relegate them to the status of LIVs.

WORD is right!!  In 2012 there were far more utterly DISGUSTED voters than 2010, it took a bit longer for some.

Don't ask me to believe, not for a moment, that the 2010 voters changed their minds.....  since it has all been going DOWNHILL bigtime since 2008, there will be more and more voters thoroughly disgusted in 2014 as well (ever take a gander at the comments at any of the mainstream media sites??).  That is a big reason as to why we are led to expect a big GOP gain in 2014.  So if it doesn't happen, are we supposed to believe once again that the GOP voters just decided to stay home??  Really??

And yes, the implications of no longer having open and legitimate elections in this country for all intents and purposes is a huge bitter pill to swallow.  And that is precisely why so many will continue to scurry around trying to "explain" it for themselves and any that will listen....  We all know that it is much more soothing to find an excuse for something than to face the reality of what it is; and the bigger the pain, the more the excuses will flow.  Sadly, it is just a big part of human nature.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 04, 2014, 04:54:01 pm
There is a vast sea of difference between "no reasonable way" and "no way that I will accept".

The later has been proclaimed by more than a few times on this thread.

For me Luis, it is both.  To use the vernacular, "No F'ing way!!"  lol
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 04:58:44 pm
For me Luis, it is both.  To use the vernacular, "No F'ing way!!"  lol

If they can get away with voter fraud of the magnitude that you're all suggesting with complete impunity, then we may as well all shut down sites like these and stop arguing about whether this candidate or that candidate is better than the candidate from the opposing party. May as well stop voting too.

They won.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: katzenjammer on May 04, 2014, 05:14:41 pm
If they can get away with voter fraud of the magnitude that you're all suggesting with complete impunity, then we may as well all shut down sites like these and stop arguing about whether this candidate or that candidate is better than the candidate from the opposing party. May as well stop voting too.

They won.

Yes, pretty much.  For me personally, I find reading and posting on occasion to be entertaining.  I like to follow Sports (as a wonderful distraction!!), and enjoy a lot of other things in life, but there is still some attraction for me to congregate a bit online with people that are, at least generally, of a like mind and interact a bit.

I would suppose that a careful (or even casual) reader of my comments could very readily figure out that I am not of the mind that getting the "GOP" in charge of anything is going to amount to making a hill of beans of a difference.  I just mentioned to my dearest soul this morning, the words of an old Pastor friend of mine, during one of our last phone conversations, "The rear wheels of the bus have already lost contact with the pavement....  the bus is for all intents and purposes already over the cliff...  it is just a matter of how long it will take until it hits the bottom of the ravine and comes to rest...."

So, we try to stay aware, keep our eyes and ears open, try to help others understand more things as occasions permit, try to be prepared to the best of our abilities to weather the impending storms, and above all, try to keep "our eyes on the prize."  We often speak about the fact that we need to keep in the forefront of our minds how the events and circumstances of this natural realm are all fleeting and a mere speck of time when contrasted to the whole of eternity.  We are blessed to know that we have our names written indelibly in the Lamb's Book of Life, and pray each day that we can be of help, in whatever way possible, to help others around us accept the gift of eternal Salvation as well.  Beyond that, there isn't a whole heck of a lot that we can do for the most part, except to try to enjoy our lives to the best of our abilities, and play whatever small role that we may be blessed to have for others in the same regard.

(That's why you won't find me very often amongst the group of the constant arguers or debaters.  I say my piece, state my opinion, maybe provide a link to something I find useful now and then;  every one is free to accept it or not, I really don't mind too much either way.   :shrug:)
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: EC on May 04, 2014, 05:24:03 pm
If they can get away with voter fraud of the magnitude that you're all suggesting with complete impunity, then we may as well all shut down sites like these and stop arguing about whether this candidate or that candidate is better than the candidate from the opposing party. May as well stop voting too.

They won.

I keep saying. There is a simple and effective way of preventing (or at least reducing) voter fraud. We do it as a matter of course here. You have your polling card and you are allocated a local polling station. That is the only place you may vote, and you confirm your name and address to the poll workers BEFORE you vote, either by showing the card or your driving license. Your name is then crossed off the list. If you requested a postal vote - your name is already crossed off. You simply can not vote in person. If you failed to send in the postal vote - tough. Organize yourself better next time.
Since the list is in address order, it becomes pretty damned obvious when you have 10 adults registered to vote in a two bedroom house. Throw in the fact that your property tax (we call it Council Tax) is partly based on the number of occupants and much of the incentive to rig the vote is gone. We don't have the problem of "missing" military votes - any active duty member of the military is quite simply not permitted to vote. It's one of the things we give up to serve.

If Afghans and Iraqis can run legit elections - why the hell can't the USA?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Formerly Once-Ler on May 04, 2014, 05:24:59 pm
WORD is right!!  In 2012 there were far more utterly DISGUSTED voters than 2010, it took a bit longer for some.

Don't ask me to believe, not for a moment, that the 2010 voters changed their minds.....  since it has all been going DOWNHILL bigtime since 2008, there will be more and more voters thoroughly disgusted in 2014 as well (ever take a gander at the comments at any of the mainstream media sites??).  That is a big reason as to why we are led to expect a big GOP gain in 2014.  So if it doesn't happen, are we supposed to believe once again that the GOP voters just decided to stay home??  Really??

2010 GOP voters voted in 2012.  They were just dwarfed by LIVs in 2012.  About 90 million votes were cast in 2010.  131 million in 2012.

As far as common sense goes folks, which candidate would shave moderate votes from the rats?  Maverick McCain or Rich Romney?  2012 Romney barely added votes to the GOP totals over McCain in 2008 even though the voting age population increased.  The GOP will do well in 2014 because it is a midterm election.  2016 will be about personalities not parties.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 05:34:11 pm
I keep saying. There is a simple and effective way of preventing (or at least reducing) voter fraud. We do it as a matter of course here. You have your polling card and you are allocated a local polling station. That is the only place you may vote, and you confirm your name and address to the poll workers BEFORE you vote, either by showing the card or your driving license. Your name is then crossed off the list. If you requested a postal vote - your name is already crossed off. You simply can not vote in person. If you failed to send in the postal vote - tough. Organize yourself better next time.
Since the list is in address order, it becomes pretty damned obvious when you have 10 adults registered to vote in a two bedroom house. Throw in the fact that your property tax (we call it Council Tax) is partly based on the number of occupants and much of the incentive to rig the vote is gone. We don't have the problem of "missing" military votes - any active duty member of the military is quite simply not permitted to vote. It's one of the things we give up to serve.

If Afghans and Iraqis can run legit elections - why the hell can't the USA?

Not if you listen to DC.

The fraud is conducted after the actual votes are cast.

They won.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: EC on May 04, 2014, 05:41:31 pm
Not if you listen to DC.

The fraud is conducted after the actual votes are cast.

They won.

Forgot to mention - we also only do pen and paper votes, And absolutely anyone can watch the counting - which is done in the same voting station your vote is cast in. I've been a poll station volunteer for a couple of elections. It's knackering - 6 AM to roughly midnight (ours is a small ward). The polls close at 22:00, then the counting starts.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Bigun on May 04, 2014, 05:51:15 pm
In 2012 the democrat incumbent with a horrible record received roughly 8 million less votes than he did in 2008.

Our guy got roughly 3 million less votes than the terrible 2008 candidate for our side did  in 2008

We still loose by nearly 2 million votes.

WHY did that happen especially in view of what had happened in the 2010 midterms?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 06:17:24 pm
In 2012 the democrat incumbent with a horrible record received roughly 8 million less votes than he did in 2008.

Our guy got roughly 3 million less votes than the terrible 2008 candidate for our side did  in 2008

We still loose by nearly 2 million votes.

WHY did that happen especially in view of what had happened in the 2010 midterms?

For the very same reason that Peyton Manning and the Broncos got their asses handed to them by the Seattle Seahawks. 
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: jmyrlefuller on May 04, 2014, 06:18:09 pm
For the very same reason that Peyton Manning and the Broncos got their asses handed to them by the Seattle Seahawks.
The fact that he can't lead a football team in cold weather seems to be a non sequitur here.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 06:29:50 pm
The fact that he can't lead a football team in cold weather seems to be a non sequitur here.

I don't think that was Manning's first game in cold weather.

It's a perfect example.

It's an example that the only thing that matters is how you perform on the day when the score is settled and the winner decided. Every record that Manning broke prior to the SB didn't matter.

Romney's project ORCA was an unmitigated disaster, and Obama's ground game was the better game.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: evadR on May 04, 2014, 06:30:38 pm
"For me personally, I find reading and posting on occasion to be entertaining."

Yes. How would I know that I'm miserable if I didn't come here?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 06:36:07 pm
The fact that he can't lead a football team in cold weather seems to be a non sequitur here.

BTW.

Was the temperature consistently warmer on Seattle's side of the snap?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Bigun on May 04, 2014, 10:22:15 pm
For the very same reason that Peyton Manning and the Broncos got their asses handed to them by the Seattle Seahawks.

Brilliant!

Damn! Why didn't I think of that?
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: Luis Gonzalez on May 04, 2014, 10:29:26 pm
Brilliant!

Damn! Why didn't I think of that?

Not "getting" the allegorical meaning behind my response doesn't make it lack sense.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: truth_seeker on May 04, 2014, 10:46:37 pm
Perot was the quintessential example of democrat triangulation. The basic strategy has reared it's ugly head ever since.
Dims pull every trick in the book to split the republican vote, and it works, and they know it works.
But, I see we're in a pointless cycle of difference of opinion so, I'll back out.
It wasn't new. In 1948 Strom Thurmond got 1.2 million votes (2.5%), in 1968 George Wallace got 9.9 million votes (13.5%), in 1980 John Anderson got 5.7 million votes (6%) to cite a few times in the past.

Of late based on internet rhetoric, the Republicans would appear the most likely to self-sabotage, which is the risk of 3rd party challenges.
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: R4 TrumPence on May 04, 2014, 11:33:50 pm
There is a republican here in SC that didn't want to run against Hailey in a primary, so he is running as an Independent Republican in the state election for Governor.  I am so mad I could spit nails!!! **nononono*
Title: Re: The GOP Has Finally Found a Way to Defeat the Tea Party
Post by: truth_seeker on May 05, 2014, 06:19:08 pm
There is a republican here in SC that didn't want to run against Hailey in a primary, so he is running as an Independent Republican in the state election for Governor.  I am so mad I could spit nails!!! **nononono*
These types, including Nader along with those above, are publicity seekers. And disruptors.

John Anderson in 1980 must have been out to prevent a Reagan win. I think with him it was philospohical. He represented the more moderate center, and felt Reagan was too far right. (I think Perot was similar, btw)

Had he obtained more votes and stopped Reagan, the result would have been a democrat win, closer to his own political positions.

Buchanan on the other hand, represented the more extreme conservative political positions. Had he blocked Bush's win, the result would have been farther left, not farther right positions.

So we are in agreement about spitting nails. But not all 3rd party efforts are the same, or have the same results.