The Briefing Room
General Category => National/Breaking News => Topic started by: Suppressed on January 29, 2018, 05:37:59 pm
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3rd Confederate flag rises along North Carolina interstates
Posted 12:51 p.m. yesterday
Updated 2:34 p.m. yesterday
http://www.wral.com/3rd-confederate-flag-rises-along-north-carolina-interstates/17295987/ (http://www.wral.com/3rd-confederate-flag-rises-along-north-carolina-interstates/17295987/)
MORGANTON, N.C. — A third large Confederate flag is now flying along a North Carolina interstate as the Sons of Confederate Veterans say they are flying the rebel banner because in other places in the South, Confederate memorials are being removed.
[...]
The Confederate flags fly on poles on private property but are easily seen from the highway.
[...]
Smith said Confederate groups are trying to get a flag up for every Confederate memorial taken down, like the statue to Southern general and early Ku Klux Klan leader Nathan Bedford Forrest which was removed in Memphis, Tennessee, last month.
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@catfish1957
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Good on 'em.
Let 100 more rise up!
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Good on 'em.
Let 100 more rise up!
Agreed! 888high58888
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Damn right.
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Good on 'em.
Let 100 more rise up!
Or a 1000!
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Or a 1000!
888high58888
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Confederate flags being raised again? Should I be dusting off the AK and heading to the Mason Dixon line to tamp down some southern aggression.......again?
(http://s3.thingpic.com/images/7B/EgmGAB8C717Tk99Uf6EMstYF.jpeg)
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You might find my comments a little off the line, but my opinion of SCV has dropped 3 or 4 notches in the past few years, and am totally disappointed in them.
Rather than take the fight to the offenders, they took the politically correct "soft speak" as a response. The SCV should have taken the lead much earlier in this fight, and blown off any chants of racism. As I understand there were several legal options that could have been taken to save some of these monuments, but the SCV chose not to fight.
90-95% of members I know are absolutely not racist, and have a love of southern culture, and want to honor their ancestors who served to protect their homeland. To anyone who thinks otherwise, provide a sane response, and I will respond.
SCV's efforts in simple terms..... Too Little ...Too Late.
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Confederate flags being raised again? Should I be dusting off the AK and heading to the Mason Dixon line to tamp down some southern aggression.......again?
(http://s3.thingpic.com/images/7B/EgmGAB8C717Tk99Uf6EMstYF.jpeg)
The Yankees invaded the South first. My State of Origin was the first and the first casualties were during the Pratt Street Riots against invading Yankee troops.
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The Yankees invaded the South first. My State of Origin was the first and the first casualties were during the Pratt Street Riots against invading Yankee troops.
Northerners don't sit around sipping mint juleps waiting for something to happen. We make things happen.
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We've had a local giant Confederate battle flag flying over our nearby interstate for years.
Since the hysteria of the last couple of years, the owner on the private land added a bunch of monuments, a ton of 3'x5' confederate flags and a giant halogen spotlight for the giant confederate flag he has flying there.
Not a guy to try messing with by sneaking onto his land to take the flags down.
On good authority - he has a .50 Cal BMG mounted to the bed of his Chevy.
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Northerners don't sit around sipping mint juleps waiting for something to happen. We make things happen.
Yeah, one of those great virtues of tyrants.
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Yeah, one of those great virtues of tyrants.
I'd expect a Rat sympathizer like you to come to the defense of 1861 Baltimore. It was definitely your kind of town as it is today.
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I'd expect a Rat sympathizer like you to come to the defense of 1861 Baltimore. It was definitely your kind of town as it is today.
Invading Yankee armies in a peaceful state. I'm with the rioters (not gibsmedats, but business owners), but my roots in that colony, and later, State and then OCCUPIED State go way back. Baltimore was respectable until the Yankees came in and trashed the place and made it what it is today.
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There is a large one you can see from I-81. A giant middle finger to the easily-offended world
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Oh, just put the stupid thing away.
The war's been over for 150 years now. *****rollingeyes*****
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Invading Yankee armies in a peaceful state. I'm with the rioters (not gibsmedats, but business owners), but my roots in that colony, and later, State and then OCCUPIED State go way back. Baltimore was respectable until the Yankees came in and trashed the place and made it what it is today.
It went to hell when the relocated the Capital back to Baltimore/DC with the passing in 1790 ofthe Residence Act.
Personally the should have left it in Philly. It was a shithole then as it is now.
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I'd expect a Rat sympathizer like you to come to the defense of 1861 Baltimore. It was definitely your kind of town as it is today.
Not my sort of town today...it's under your favored style of big-government tyranny.
And I'm certainly not a Rat sympathizer.
But I do like the Constitution, so I support those who tried to thwart those who ignored it.
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On good authority - he has a .50 Cal BMG mounted to the bed of his Chevy.
Wait... Doesn't everybody?
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Baltimore was respectable until the Yankees came in and trashed the place and made it what it is today.
In what alternate universe was that happening? It was the home of the Know Nothing Party for crying out loud.
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These are the type of people who if you tell them to stop, they do it more. At some point it stops being about the Confederacy anymore and becomes a symbol of rebellious spite (for which the Confederate flag is an admittedly fitting symbol).
It's no coincidence that these types probably voted for Trump in huge numbers.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what real resistance looks like—standing in the face of a people and society that tells you you can't think that way, and doing it anyway.
For better or worse.
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You might find my comments a little off the line, but my opinion of SCV has dropped 3 or 4 notches in the past few years, and am totally disappointed in them.
Rather than take the fight to the offenders, they took the politically correct "soft speak" as a response. The SCV should have taken the lead much earlier in this fight, and blown off any chants of racism. As I understand there were several legal options that could have been taken to save some of these monuments, but the SCV chose not to fight.
90-95% of members I know are absolutely not racist, and have a love of southern culture, and want to honor their ancestors who served to protect their homeland. To anyone who thinks otherwise, provide a sane response, and I will respond.
SCV's efforts in simple terms..... Too Little ...Too Late.
I'm a lifelong Yankee who even lived in Boston for a while and I agree.
The hubbub over the confederate flag was ridiculous. There was even a Confederate memorial on an island in Boston, which memorialized some confederate POWs, that most likely nobody had seen in 50 years. But of course once people found out about it they were outraged and it had to be removed.
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http://www.wbur.org/artery/2017/08/16/boston-confederate-monument (http://www.wbur.org/artery/2017/08/16/boston-confederate-monument)
Take a boat to Georges Island in Boston Harbor, and you'll see something you might not expect: a Confederate monument.
Actually, right now you won't see it. The stone, the only Confederate monument in Massachusetts, has been boarded up since June while the state figures out what to do with it — a question that has new urgency in the wake of last weekend's violence in Charlottesville.
Before the PC hysteria broke about this subject, nobody had noticed or cared about this memorial in the slightest. Once people found out well that just could not stand.
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If we can give little kids on losing teams participation trophies, let them have their participation trophy for losing as well.
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Oh, just put the stupid thing away.
The war's been over for 150 years now. *****rollingeyes*****
People like you are just stoking a new one.
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Oh, just put the stupid thing away.
The war's been over for 150 years now. *****rollingeyes*****
@Jazzhead
And the Bill of Rights is even older...no wonder you hold it in such disregard!
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First they came for the Confederate Flag....
You think it's going to stop there, they are already going after Jefferson, and ultimately they will go after Washington, and suggest that we get a new flag to better represent our "diversity".
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First they came for the Confederate Flag....
You think it's going to stop there, they are already going after Jefferson, and ultimately they will go after Washington, and suggest that we get a new flag to better represent our "diversity".
Yes they did.
(http://www.usflags.com/images/thumbs/0003193.jpeg)
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Oh, just put the stupid thing away.
The war's been over for 150 years now. *****rollingeyes*****
Just because you have no regard for heritage, honor, and homeland, don't spout your ignorant views.
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@Jazzhead
And the Bill of Rights is even older...no wonder you hold it in such disregard!
Suppressed - why do you levy this charge? What part of the Bill of Rights do you say I "hold in disregard"?
I'm not suggesting that the law prohibit these yokels from flying the Confederate flag. Of course they have the right. I'm just suggesting the war's been over for 150 years now, and it's time to give it up. The South has much to be proud of - folks from my part of the country are flocking there - but insisting on poking one's metaphorical finger in the eyes of those who continue to suffer the effects of racial prejudice is just, well, assholery.
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Just because you have no regard for heritage, honor, and homeland, don't spout your ignorant views.
It's hardly ignorant to state that the war's been over for 150 years, sir. Ignorance is continuing to insist on the righteousness of a cause grounded in the defense of slavery. Let it go - so the rest of us can let it go, and continue to heal.
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but insisting on poking one's metaphorical finger in the eyes of those who continue to suffer the effects of racial prejudice is just, well, assholery.
Bullshit.
Having someone ELSE define what YOUR flag means is assholery.
Just what would you do if someone decided your precious rainbow flag was all about tobacco?
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It's hardly ignorant to state that the war's been over for 150 years, sir. Ignorance is continuing to insist on the righteousness of a cause grounded in the defense of slavery. Let it go - so the rest of us can let it go, and continue to heal.
If you don't like it, don't look at it. People have the right to choose to fly a flag if they so desire.
So let it go.
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Suppressed - why do you levy this charge? What part of the Bill of Rights do you say I "hold in disregard"?
I'm not suggesting that the law prohibit these yokels from flying the Confederate flag. Of course they have the right. I'm just suggesting the war's been over for 150 years now, and it's time to give it up. The South has much to be proud of - folks from my part of the country are flocking there - but insisting on poking one's metaphorical finger in the eyes of those who continue to suffer the effects of racial prejudice is just, well, assholery.
If ignorance ever goes to $100 a barrel, I want drilling rights to your head.
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If ignorance ever goes to $100 a barrel, I want drilling rights to your head.
FYI - willful ignorance will require fracking.
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It's hardly ignorant to state that the war's been over for 150 years, sir. Ignorance is continuing to insist on the righteousness of a cause grounded in the defense of slavery. Let it go - so the rest of us can let it go, and continue to heal.
Are you so obtuse that you think WBTS heritage is limited to the slavery issue? I guess the concepts of honor, valor, homeland defense, and pride in ancestry are concepts beyond your comprehension. Where's the damn ignore button, ...... you are worthy.
9999hair out0000
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It's hardly ignorant to state that the war's been over for 150 years, sir. Ignorance is continuing to insist on the righteousness of a cause grounded in the defense of slavery. Let it go - so the rest of us can let it go, and continue to heal.
Wrap yourself up in this bubba..... I hope its big enough....
(https://wallpapercave.com/wp/sXFJ9qE.jpg)
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If ignorance ever goes to $100 a barrel, I want drilling rights to your head.
LOL. Top Notch!
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If ignorance ever goes to $100 a barrel, I want drilling rights to your head.
"folks from my part of the country are flocking there"
God help us, if they are anything like him.
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Confederate flags being raised again? Should I be dusting off the AK and heading to the Mason Dixon line to tamp down some southern aggression.......again?
(http://s3.thingpic.com/images/7B/EgmGAB8C717Tk99Uf6EMstYF.jpeg)
@Frank Cannon
Yeah,come on down and see how well that works out for you.
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Oh, just put the stupid thing away.
The war's been over for 150 years now. *****rollingeyes*****
@Jazzhead
Have you tried explaining that to the yankees? Of course you haven't.
Are you one of the ignorant shitheads that thinks it had anything to do with slavery?
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In what alternate universe was that happening? It was the home of the Know Nothing Party for crying out loud.
@Frank Cannon
It's not now?
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@Jazzhead
Have you tried explaining that to the yankees? Of course you haven't.
Are you one of the ignorant shitheads that thinks it had anything to do with slavery?
It had EVERYTHING to do with slavery. But never mind - you have the right to fly that flag, so go ahead and do it. As for me, I have the right to wipe my ass with it.
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It had EVERYTHING to do with slavery. But never mind - you have the right to fly that flag, so go ahead and do it. As for me, I have the right to wipe my ass with it.
As do we.
I wipe my ass with this flag:
(https://cdn.dribbble.com/users/351579/screenshots/2505428/rainbow_1x.png)
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All hail the Bill of Rights! Let's all hate to our heart's content! :patriot:
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All hail the Bill of Rights! Let's all hate to our heart's content! :patriot:
Yeah, it's called liberty.
Something you think should be "reasonably regulated" by the courts and government using punitive measures.
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It had EVERYTHING to do with slavery.
Thank you for self-identifying as an ignorant fool. Even Abraham Lincoln said it had nothing to do with slavery,but WTF did HE know about it,right?
As for me, I have the right to wipe my ass with it.
In your case,that would be your head.
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All hail the Bill of Rights! Let's all hate to our heart's content! :patriot:
@Jazzhead
WAAAAH! WAAAAH! (maybe I can cry and deflect attention away from my ignorance!) WAAAAH!
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Yeah, it's called liberty.
Something you think should be "reasonably regulated" by the courts and government using punitive measures.
@INVAR
:amen:
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Be honest, SP. Of course the Civil War was about slavery. Yes, I know that Southern partisans dress it all up purty as being about States' rights, and Northern partisans claim it was about preserving the Union.
But the fact is that if slavery didn't exist, the South wouldn't have left the Union and the war would not have been fought. Slavery is the but-for cause of the conflict.
And it's also true that African Americans continue to suffer from racial animus and prejudice (and, yeah, we Northerners are just as guilty of that as Southerners.) So when that stupid snot rag of a flag continues to fly over public buildings, I fully understand why so many are offended.
I can't tell you to take it down. I don't have the right. But I do have the right to express my opinion about those who keep wanting to pick at scabs centuries later. And they're everywhere, on both the left and the right.
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Be honest, SP. Of course the Civil War was about slavery.
Yes,and the Sun rises in the west,up is down,and Bubbette! Clinton is a swimsuit model.
Are you REALLY such an enormous fool that you believe without question what was taught to you about history in public schools?
ABRAHAM LINCOLN wrote in his dairy that the war had nothing to do with slavery. WTF are you going to believe,Lincoln,or some dipshit history teacher?
Bubba,if anyone is showing their prejudices here,it is you,and your conditioned prejudices against the south.
But the fact is that if slavery didn't exist, the South wouldn't have left the Union and the war would not have been fought. Slavery is the but-for cause of the conflict.
Blah,blah,bullshit squared,blah.
The root cause of the Civil War was economics. The south was starting to export cotton and other goods without cutting the NY banking families in on the deal. They got to dip their beaks into every deal entering or leaving on boats because they controlled the ports and they owned the largest banks. They saw themselves as the Masters of the Universe,and didn't like those "unsophisticated rural farmers getting all upppity".
To give Lincoln credit,what he cared about was keeping the nation from dividing. If that meant appeasing the slave owners,he was willing to do that. If it meant pleasing the NY (and truth to be told,European) banking families,he was willing to do that,too.
Then things got out of hand when the south,which was their RIGHT as member of a VOLUNTARY union seceded from the Union,he had no options left other than to use force.
And it's also true that African Americans continue to suffer from racial animus and prejudice (and, yeah, we Northerners are just as guilty of that as Southerners.) So when that stupid snot rag of a flag continues to fly over public buildings, I fully understand why so many are offended.
I can't tell you to take it down. I don't have the right. But I do have the right to express my opinion about those who keep wanting to pick at scabs centuries later. And they're everywhere, on both the left and the right.
Ain't YOU "special"!!!!
I know you are speaking out of indoctrinated ignorance and kneejerk reactions because of it,so I will give you a little tech tip. You can get away with saying you will tear down Confederate flags on the internet,but it's really not a very smart thing to try to do in real life.
BTW,what are your thoughts on the FACT that it was a black man that enslaved the very first black slave in the English-speaking new world,or that there were black Confederate soldiers and even a couple of black Confederate graveyards that sill existed maybe 10 years ago. They may still exist,but I suspect they have fallen to false history by now. They were just sooo Non-PC.
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Confederate flags being raised again? Should I be dusting off the AK and heading to the Mason Dixon line to tamp down some southern aggression.......again?
You can't. Gun laws in Maryland prevent you from bringing your AK.
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Yes,and the Sun rises in the west,up is down,and Bubbette! Clinton is a swimsuit model.
Are you REALLY such an enormous fool that you believe without question what was taught to you about history in public schools?
ABRAHAM LINCOLN wrote in his dairy that the war had nothing to do with slavery. WTF are you going to believe,Lincoln,or some dipshit history teacher?
Bubba,if anyone is showing their prejudices here,it is you,and your conditioned prejudices against the south.
Blah,blah,bullshit squared,blah.
The root cause of the Civil War was economics. The south was starting to export cotton and other goods without cutting the NY banking families in on the deal. They got to dip their beaks into every deal entering or leaving on boats because they controlled the ports and they owned the largest banks. They saw themselves as the Masters of the Universe,and didn't like those "unsophisticated rural farmers getting all upppity".
To give Lincoln credit,what he cared about was keeping the nation from dividing. If that meant appeasing the slave owners,he was willing to do that. If it meant pleasing the NY (and truth to be told,European) banking families,he was willing to do that,too.
Then things got out of hand when the south,which was their RIGHT as member of a VOLUNTARY union seceded from the Union,he had no options left other than to use force.
Ain't YOU "special"!!!!
I know you are speaking out of indoctrinated ignorance and kneejerk reactions because of it,so I will give you a little tech tip. You can get away with saying you will tear down Confederate flags on the internet,but it's really not a very smart thing to try to do in real life.
BTW,what are your thoughts on the FACT that it was a black man that enslaved the very first black slave in the English-speaking new world,or that there were black Confederate soldiers and even a couple of black Confederate graveyards that sill existed maybe 10 years ago. They may still exist,but I suspect they have fallen to false history by now. They were just sooo Non-PC.
Well said!
The person who posted the flag was "stupid" and uses it to "wipe his ass" is full of hatred. He denigrates the proud heritage of brave men who died for their cause, to not become economic slaves to the North.
Slavery, an evil, has existed for many centuries, in many countries, and is continued today.
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@Frank Cannon
Yeah,come on down and see how well that works out for you.
Worked out awesome the last time. You remember that dont'cha? That time y'all lost your ass.
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You can't. Gun laws in Maryland prevent you from bringing your AK.
LOL. Damn Southerners have figured out a way to outfox the North.
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LOL. Damn Southerners have figured out a way to outfox the North.
I wonder how many people these days actually know where the Mason-Dixon line is?
I think more than a few would be shocked to actually know where the "South" begins.
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I wonder how many people these days actually know where the Mason-Dixon line is?
I think more than a few would be shocked to actually know where the "South" begins.
They probably think it is one of those Tractor Rap Bullshit new Country Groups like Florida-Georgia Line or Jason Aldean.
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Well said!
The person who posted the flag was "stupid" and uses it to "wipe his ass" is full of hatred. He denigrates the proud heritage of brave men who died for their cause, to not become economic slaves to the North.
Slavery, an evil, has existed for many centuries, in many countries, and is continued today.
I don't denigrate the brave soldiers who died for the Southern cause. I denigrate those who can't accept that the war was over a century and a half ago and insist on poking today's Southerners in the eye with giant Rebel battle flags that send the message that racial animus is alive and well. Yes, they have the right to do that, as well as to claim they're just exhibiting their white pride. Just as I have the right to criticize such provocations.
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I denigrate those who can't accept that the war was over a century and a half ago and insist on poking today's Southerners in the eye with giant Rebel battle flags that send the message that racial animus is alive and well.
Typical Yankee bullshit from someone who likely has never stepped foot in the South.
There is NO true Southerner alive that publicly thinks the display of the Confederate flag is a 'poke in the eye'.
Southerners look on that flag with respect and heritage.
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Typical Yankee bullshit from someone who likely has never stepped foot in the South.
There is NO true Southerner alive that publicly thinks the display of the Confederate flag is a 'poke in the eye'.
Southerners look on that flag with respect and heritage.
As a southerner born and bred, I disagree. That flag is, and has been, displayed by some to be a ‘poke in the eye.†Not all the time, nor by everyone, certainly, but often enough by enough.
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Typical Yankee bullshit from someone who likely has never stepped foot in the South.
There is NO true Southerner alive that publicly thinks the display of the Confederate flag is a 'poke in the eye'.
Southerners look on that flag with respect and heritage.
Most people outside the DNC and the ACLU normally don't give it a second thought either.
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Typical Yankee bullshit from someone who likely has never stepped foot in the South.
There is NO true Southerner alive that publicly thinks the display of the Confederate flag is a 'poke in the eye'.
Southerners look on that flag with respect and heritage.
Why the need for an extra symbol, beyond the flag of the United States of America?
There is no flag of the "Rocky Mountain States" or the "Midwest."
What precisely is this "heritage," anyway. What is the common feature?
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Why the need for an extra symbol, beyond the flag of the United States of America?
There is no flag of the "Rocky Mountain States" or the "Midwest."
What precisely is this "heritage," anyway. What is the common feature?
Well you have your second State Flag flying everywhere in the Cali. You know the one.
(https://fthmb.tqn.com/SQ-TnR_xkpStfm4pbl0jEh4-OGQ=/4242x2828/filters:fill(auto,1)/mexican-flag-653205502-58df19903df78c51624b37d6.jpg)
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What precisely is this "heritage," anyway. What is the common feature?
Baws who fought gallantly an' mahnujed tuh save da rejuhmunt.....
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Most people outside the DNC and the ACLU normally don't give it a second thought either.
Won't say it's common, but in my daily travels around the Maryland countryside...
Less than an hour's drive, I know where there are least a half dozen homes that proudly display the Confederate Flag on their front porch....and the huge Lone Star might be on the siding, too!
I'll remember to take pics for y'all.
They're in small towns or outskirts of same...with landmark covered wooden bridges, etc..
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So, we've had the Spanish, Mexican, Lone Star, Confederate and the U.S. Flag, flying over where I live, at one point or another.
(Did I forget the French?)
You either ban everyone except the state and U.S. Flag, or ban none of them.
So the Original Spanish and Mexican settlers to Texas were all sweetness and light, abused no one, had no slaves, etc...
I ain't buying it.
Ban all except the current one(s) or let them all fly.
"Those that forget history are...."
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Won't say it's common, but in my daily travels around the Maryland countryside...
Less than an hour's drive, I know where there are least a half dozen homes that proudly display the Confederate Flag on their front porch....and the huge Lone Star might be on the siding, too!
I'll remember to take pics for y'all.
They're in small towns or outskirts of same...with landmark covered wooden bridges, etc..
There's a lot of good folks in Maryland...but like New York and California the huge cities dominate the political scene and drown out the average person who lives there suffering under the results of Liberalism.
Can't wait to see the pics.
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So the Original Spanish and Mexican settlers to Texas were all sweetness and light, abused no one, had no slaves, etc...
"Those that forget history are...."
"Remember Goliad!"
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"Remember Goliad!"
:beer:
Absolutely.
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Why is flying the flag of a Confederacy defeated 153 years ago a political issue for the South today? What is the reasoning?
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Why is flying the flag of a Confederacy defeated 153 years ago a political issue for the South today? What is the reasoning?
It's not an issue per se for the Southern states...it's an issue for the Liberal race pimps the ACLU and other leftist organizations who are right now trying to erase history from the books because they think a 150 year old flag or the marble statue of some long dead Confederate General somehow is causing the racial strife we have today.
It's a distraction from actually dealing with the issues causing the problems. Low hanging fruit if you will.
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Baws who fought gallantly an' mahnujed tuh save da rejuhmunt.....
LOL. Priceless.
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Worked out awesome the last time. You remember that dont'cha? That time y'all lost your ass.
If it’s such a big deal they should have won the damn war.
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Right in Virginia wonders:
"Why is flying the flag of a Confederacy defeated 153 years ago a political issue for the South today? What is the reasoning?"
Independence.
Rebellion.
Opposition.
Freedom.
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Who wants to have to continually explain to their kids why there are only 5 flags flying at Six Flags?
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Why the need for an extra symbol, beyond the flag of the United States of America?
There is no flag of the "Rocky Mountain States" or the "Midwest."
What precisely is this "heritage," anyway. What is the common feature?
The Rebel Flag works just fine out here too - If you were as country as you claim, you wouldn't need to ask that question. There ain't a redneck boy anywhere that doesn't know what that flag is for.
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I don't denigrate the brave soldiers who died for the Southern cause. I denigrate those who can't accept that the war was over a century and a half ago and insist on poking today's Southerners in the eye with giant Rebel battle flags that send the message that racial animus is alive and well. Yes, they have the right to do that, as well as to claim they're just exhibiting their white pride. Just as I have the right to criticize such provocations.
The Confederate flag is not a poke in the eye to a Southerner whose ancestors fought to leave the Union. You shouldn't have to force a State to remain in the Union, if the State wants to leave, that should be their right. I believe our Founders would agree. Also, it seems that a country is able to leave the European Union.
The flag is not exhibiting "white pride" nor does it represent "racial animus." Your characterization is false, insulting, and ignorant.
What other heritages should be erased from the earth in your opinion?
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So, we've had the Spanish, Mexican, Lone Star, Confederate and the U.S. Flag, flying over where I live, at one point or another.
(Did I forget the French?)
You either ban everyone except the state and U.S. Flag, or ban none of them.
So the Original Spanish and Mexican settlers to Texas were all sweetness and light, abused no one, had no slaves, etc...
I ain't buying it.
Ban all except the current one(s) or let them all fly.
"Those that forget history are...."
That's almost right @GrouchoTex
There's a place for other symbols.
The Lone Star would be one of them - If Texas ever did rise up in rebellion, that flag would fly as a standard that every Texan's eye could see. It isn't foreign to Texas. It isn't a new thing. It's part and parcel with Texas, and as American as it gets. And it's a quirky thing - I can't think of another state flag at all that is held in such regard by it's citizens.
That's alright.
But raise that Rebel Flag over the state house, and it wouldn't just be Texans that would see it. The whole dang South would see that, and every redneck boy on the planet would look up.
Yeah that Rebel Flag is Dixie. It's her heritage and it probably means more there then anywhere. But all that, and all it stands for is imbued into Country life too -I'd bet there ain't a good ol boy one that ain't had that flag on many a patch and bumper-sticker... That doesn't remember that flag fondly as an integrated symbol of his youthful rebellion. It ain't foreign to Country. It ain't a new thing. It is part and parcel with country life, and as American as it gets.
And more recently in my recollection, The Gadsen Flag. That's one that even quite a few Yankees might see. They'd get it.
There's a place for legitimate and righteous rebellion. Rebellion needs a standard, and that standard is usually a flag. And there ain't a single thing more American than righteous rebellion. TheLeft tries to form new rebellion and change the face of America. That's why they fight so hard to tear down these native and powerful symbols, regardless of the excuse.
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What precisely is this "heritage," anyway. What is the common feature?
Exactly the response I'd expect from a ____ like you.
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Not withstanding, I sure notice that the majority of CBF bashers are DJT supporters.
Anyone shocked?
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I hate it every time we re-fight the Civil War here. Incidentally, I just learned my great-great-grandfather fought at Gettysburg for J.E.B. Stuart. Within a few weeks, he deserted. On returning home, he told the family he chose the wrong side. :shrug:
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Worked out awesome the last time. You remember that dont'cha? That time y'all lost your ass.
@Frank Cannon
Last time it was an industrialized and heavily populated country going up against a rural country. The south even had to buy guns to arm their soldiers.
This are different now. Bring it!
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I wonder how many people these days actually know where the Mason-Dixon line is?
I think more than a few would be shocked to actually know where the "South" begins.
@txradioguy
Well,you can write off Virginia now,so I guess it starts in NC these days. I know it was north of Virginia,but truthfully,Md was never really a southern state anyhow.
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That's almost right @GrouchoTex
There's a place for other symbols.
The Lone Star would be one of them - If Texas ever did rise up in rebellion, that flag would fly as a standard that every Texan's eye could see. It isn't foreign to Texas. It isn't a new thing. It's part and parcel with Texas, and as American as it gets. And it's a quirky thing - I can't think of another state flag at all that is held in such regard by it's citizens.
That's alright.
But raise that Rebel Flag over the state house, and it wouldn't just be Texans that would see it. The whole dang South would see that, and every redneck boy on the planet would look up.
Yeah that Rebel Flag is Dixie. It's her heritage and it probably means more there then anywhere. But all that, and all it stands for is imbued into Country life too -I'd bet there ain't a good ol boy one that ain't had that flag on many a patch and bumper-sticker... That doesn't remember that flag fondly as an integrated symbol of his youthful rebellion. It ain't foreign to Country. It ain't a new thing. It is part and parcel with country life, and as American as it gets.
And more recently in my recollection, The Gadsen Flag. That's one that even quite a few Yankees might see. They'd get it.
There's a place for legitimate and righteous rebellion. Rebellion needs a standard, and that standard is usually a flag. And there ain't a single thing more American than righteous rebellion. TheLeft tries to form new rebellion and change the face of America. That's why they fight so hard to tear down these native and powerful symbols, regardless of the excuse.
@roamer_1
I offer a challenge to anyone who things and says the Confederate flag should be banned. Find me 10 Dim US Senators and 50 Dim US congresscritters who are willing to go on national tv and call for banning the flags of Mexico and Africa.
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I hate it every time we re-fight the Civil War here. Incidentally, I just learned my great-great-grandfather fought at Gettysburg for J.E.B. Stuart. Within a few weeks, he deserted. On returning home, he told the family he chose the wrong side. :shrug:
@mountaineer
I guess one excuse is as good as another when you need to explain why you deserted instead of fought.
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@roamer_1
I offer a challenge to anyone who things and says the Confederate flag should be banned. Find me 10 Dim US Senators and 50 Dim US congresscritters who are willing to go on national tv and call for banning the flags of Mexico and Africa.
@sneakypete
I don't give two sh*ts whether they ban it or not - It's no nevermind to me...
How's it go?
"A Southren man don't need em round anyhow."
I like that.
And screw Neil Young.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJixs2FoZ_Y#)
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You shouldn't have to force a State to remain in the Union, if the State wants to leave, that should be their right.
@austingirl
A concept with beautiful precedent...
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another . . ."
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@austingirl
A concept with beautiful precedent...
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another . . ."
Yes, except those who consider themselves our intellectual and legal superiors have lectured us and emphatically stated that the Declaration is not legal or binding with the force of law, and therefore it's contents are merely historical in context, but sedition or treason if applied in modern context. They will tell you that the quoted section from the Declaration you cited - was settled in 1865 - and as such has been found to be null and void.
It's the document most pay lip service to that they insist is the only legal foundation for the country (with reasonable regulations and infringements at the whim of government and it's advocates of course), and that the Declaration does not apply, except in its historical context alone.
They will tell you that it has no beautiful precedent for current application.
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@Frank Cannon
Last time it was an industrialized and heavily populated country going up against a rural country. The south even had to buy guns to arm their soldiers.
This are different now. Bring it!
Really? I was down south this summer and it still looked like a Roy Moore revival meeting in a lot of place.
It really is a moot point anyway. Losers always bitch about wanting a rematch after getting their ass handed to them.
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As a southerner born and bred, I disagree. That flag is, and has been, displayed by some to be a ‘poke in the eye.†Not all the time, nor by everyone, certainly, but often enough by enough.
@Oceander
Also as a Southerner, born and bred. I agree, I never really cared for the flag as much as others did, but I did respect it as a show of God given right to rebel. It wasn't a racist thing for the most part, but sorta a rebel against the machine thing (big government). But I have as you have seen it used as a racial thing to a small percentage of folks. But for the most part it was just a symbol of kids saying they love their country southern way of life. A celebration of rural life and in some way a thumb in the eye of Pop culture. Sorta the way I view the Gadsden flag now days (my fave).
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Really? I was down south this summer and it still looked like a Roy Moore revival meeting in a lot of place.
Love Roy, also love my 60,000 rounds of various ammo. Love having a gun range not a 1/8th of a mile away from home (over the ridge here in town) and because I own land next to it they (police) let me shoot anytime (daytime) I want (I guess so I don't complain about it). Housing is cheap, guns are plentiful. Hording is common and gun groups are very helpful. Only problem is sheriffs have a lot of pull and like their slush funds via CC permits. But for most part, gun laws are not too strict.
I got pulled over today as I was driving my kid around. I was demonstrating how the clutch works to one of my boys. I guess to police officer I was driving erratic in my truck. Anyhoo I was showing son how a clutch behaves and rolling back and forth on a hill, letting him observe my feet work and guess policeman saw me. He slowed down as he drove by my yard and I got out out of my truck and we had a good ole conversation. I had my gun in plain sight, but he wasn't worried at all. We were soon talking about family and teaching his kids to drive a shift drive. I love the south, and I love freedom.
Do I want to see a war again between North and South? No...Heck no... but it is brewing and freedom is more than worth fighting for.
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@Oceander
Also as a Southerner, born and bred. I agree, I never really cared for the flag as much as others did, but I did respect it as a show of God given right to rebel.
The CBF isn't my personal favorite, but the two below (which I prefer) doesn't bother the PC left wing pukes. Sadly some racists KKK cretins hijacked the flag, and turned it into something it wasn't intended. It is simply a red white and blue St. Andrews Cross flag with stars to indicate the states of the Confederacy. Same as Scotland's flag, except blue and white with no stars.
Bonnie Blue Flag
(http://anythingrebel.com/images/products/R7066.jpg)
Stars and Bars
(https://flagsoveramerica.com/sc_images/products/860_large_image.jpg)
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-3WAhbulFs#)
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You shouldn't have to force a State to remain in the Union, if the State wants to leave, that should be their right.
@austingirl
Maybe,maybe not. I am not familiar with the conditions or agreements on how other states became states in a union,but for the first 13,they joined in a VOLUNTARY UNION that was based on certain agreements that if not met would allow them to legally break the contract and become independent once again. Remember,these people fled the virtual police states ran by royalty and the Catholic Church in Europe,and were leery about giving up their independence. Essentially,they agreed to form a union for defense and business purposes. They did not join to be slaves to NY bankers.
It is no stretch of the truth to say that due to Mr Lincoln's War,the original 13 colonies are being held as slaves by an out of control feral government to this very day.
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I got pulled over today as I was driving my kid around. I was demonstrating how the clutch works to one of my boys. I guess to police officer I was driving erratic in my truck. Anyhoo I was showing son how a clutch behaves and rolling back and forth on a hill, letting him observe my feet work and guess policeman saw me. He slowed down as he drove by my yard and I got out out of my truck and we had a good ole conversation. I had my gun in plain sight, but he wasn't worried at all. We were soon talking about family and teaching his kids to drive a shift drive. I love the south, and I love freedom.
@Sighlass
I was at a friends commercial garage one day shortly after the HP switched from S&W 59's to Beretta 92's,and a Sgt from the Highway Patrol came in to get something on his cruiser checked. I noticed the Beretta and asked him about it,and he took it out of the holster and handed it to be to check it out.
There were a couple of yankee tourists in there whose car had broken down and they were waiting for it to be fixed,and I thought they were going to stroke out. I should mention I had a long beard,long hair,and was wearing a flannel shirt with jeans and a baseball cap. I fit pretty much every movie/bad tv show stereotype they held for "crazy redneck",and they just couldn't believe a Highway Patrolman would hand his gun to someone like me unless I was pointing a gun at him.
When I went to get my CCW permit when they first became legal,I did it because the sheriff called me on the phone after the law passed,and pretty much ordered me to be standing in front of his desk the first day so he could personally process my paperwork. Part of that was due to him being against CCW permits at first,and when I found out about it I went into his office and asked him "WTF is your problem?" When he told me "I don't want people running around carrying concealed weapons because it is a danger to me and my officers". My reply to him was "HorseHillary! You have known me for at least 30 years and you HAD to have known I have been carrying a gun this whole time,and it never seemed to bother you. Hell,I have one in my pocket now! Want to see it? You have a rural county with only a couple of deputies on patrol at night that patrol by themselves,who the hell do you think it going to be around to come to their aid at night if they get into trouble,a deputy that isn't within 20 miles and is off work,or a local driving by that has a gun?" I then reminded him of one time when I stepped up behind a deputy that was having problems with some drunks,and backed him up.
He told me right then I had just changed his mind. This was important because the Governor had already said he would not sign the CCW bill unless the majority of the Sheriffs approved.
So,when the day before it first became legal to issue permits,he called me and told me to be in his office at 9 the next morning and he would personally process and send my application forward.
He also asked me if I wanted a permit to get a machine gun,as long as he was issuing permits. I told him the truth,I have zero interest in machine guns and am not about to pay what it costs to buy one and get the federal permit,but I do appreciate the offer. When it comes to shoulder arms,I'm more interested in ones that will put 3 bullets into holes that touch at 100 yards. You don't have to carry so much ammo with them.
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The CBF isn't my personal favorite, but the two below (which I prefer) doesn't bother the PC left wing pukes. Sadly some racists KKK cretins hijacked the flag, and turned it into something it wasn't intended. It is simply a red white and blue St. Andrews Cross flag with stars to indicate the states of the Confederacy. Same as Scotland's flag, except blue and white with no stars.
Bonnie Blue Flag
(http://anythingrebel.com/images/products/R7066.jpg)
Stars and Bars
(https://flagsoveramerica.com/sc_images/products/860_large_image.jpg)
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-3WAhbulFs#)
@catfish1957
Truth to tell,I don't care about it now. What I DO care about is some asshat trying to tell me I can't fly it if I want.
ESPECIALLY not a pack of asshats that don't have a single complaint about all the African and Mexican flags we see flying by Dim voters.
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Who wants to have to continually explain to their kids why there are only 5 flags flying at Six Flags?
Most won't even recognize the flag of the Confederate States of America. It isn't the battle flag everyone recognizes.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%28March_1861_%E2%80%93_May_1861%29.svg)
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Bonnie Blue Flag
(http://anythingrebel.com/images/products/R7066.jpg)
@catfish1957
Isn't that flag upside down? Star standing on its head?
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@txradioguy
Well,you can write off Virginia now,so I guess it starts in NC these days. I know it was north of Virginia,but truthfully,Md was never really a southern state anyhow.
The Mason-Dixon Line runs between MD and PA. Yes, Virginia, Maryland was a Southern State until it was invaded by the Yankees, that sentiment strongest in the Eastern Shore and SOuthern Maryland, not as much in the western part of the State.
That's what the Pratt Street Riots were about (first KIA of the war): armies from Northern states invading Maryland. (Every State had its own army in those days.)
Maryland did not get the chance to vote on secession because the Virginia Legislature took its sweet time about seceding, and MD would have been in an untenable position had Virginia failed to do so. When the State was invaded, Habeas Corpus was suspended and the MD Legislature rounded up. No vote came until after the legislature had been changed out, and the Union was already in military possession of the state. By then a host of able bodied Marylanders had left to fight in the Southern Army with Lee and Stuart, and such as could had joined the Confederate Navy as well.
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The CBF isn't my personal favorite, but the two below (which I prefer) doesn't bother the PC left wing pukes. Sadly some racists KKK cretins hijacked the flag, and turned it into something it wasn't intended. Stars and Bars
They "don't bother the PC left wing pukes" because they stand for the heritage you are honoring, not the identity-politics symbolism that, for better or worse, the CBF has become.
That's the problem with identity politics. It promotes us-against-them, and the tribalism and rivalries that result. In World War 2, thousands of patriotic Germans died to defend their nation, but their ancestors don't honor their sacrifice by waving the Nazi flag. That flag was indeed the flag those soldiers marched and died under, but it cannot serve as a symbol of heritage. It has become something else - and so, for better or worse, has the stars and bars. It has, just as you say, been hijacked by bad people, and there's no going back.
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Most won't even recognize the flag of the Confederate States of America. It isn't the battle flag everyone recognizes.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%28March_1861_%E2%80%93_May_1861%29.svg)
And that Stars and Bars was only one of three flags of the Confederate States of America. It changed mid-1863, IIRC.
I love that I can have War Between the States art on my work computer with that flag on it, as nobody will flip out like they would with ANV flag.
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It has become something else - and so, for better or worse, has the stars and bars.
99 Americans out of 100 wouldn't even recognize the stars and bars. When people see it, they often think it's a American Revolutionary War flag.
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@austingirl
A concept with beautiful precedent...
"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another . . ."
@Suppressed
Yes, it's all about freedom from repressive out-of-bounds government.
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99 Americans out of 100 wouldn't even recognize the stars and bars. When people see it, they often think it's a American Revolutionary War flag.
Huh? The stars and bars (the CBF) is universally recognized. That's the problem - it has become inexorably linked with identity politics of the toxic sort.
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They "don't bother the PC left wing pukes" because they stand for the heritage you are honoring,
@Jazzhead
In what solar system does this happen,Gracie Allen? There is NOBODY more anti-American than the left-wingers. NOBODY.
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@Suppressed
Yes, it's all about freedom from repressive out-of-bounds government.
Yes, it is. That's why I want the government to be strictly separate from organized religion and have nothing to do with religious crusades.
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Huh? The stars and bars (the CBF) is universally recognized. That's the problem - it has become inexorably linked with identity politics of the toxic sort.
@Jazzhead
Only be left-wing whackjobs and cretins.
You need new friends.
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@Jazzhead
In what solar system does this happen,Gracie Allen? There is NOBODY more anti-American than the left-wingers. NOBODY.
It's like Suppressed says. He displays a confederate banner other than the CBF on his computer and no one bothers him about it. The CBF has been hijacked by bad people with bad agendas. So while you may display it to honor "heritage", others see it as a symbol of abiding racism. That's why I say put the stupid thing away - unless your intent is to embrace the identity politics it has come to represent.
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Huh? The stars and bars (the CBF) is universally recognized. That's the problem - it has become inexorably linked with identity politics of the toxic sort.
The Stars and Bars is not the confederate battle flag. The Stars and Bars is the first official national flag of the Confederacy.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Flag_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America_%281861-1863%29.svg)
http://www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html (http://www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html)
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When I say the "stars and bar" or the CBF I mean the thing that's on top of the General Lee that got chased by Roscoe P. Coltrane. If I'm mistaken that the CBF is referred to as the "stars and bars", then I appreciate your clarification. But I've heard it called that my entire life.
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@Jazzhead
Only be left-wing whackjobs and cretins.
You need new friends.
Nope - nowadays, it's linked with identity politics. Blame both the KKK and the left for that. It is flown by many as a provocation in the culture wars, not as an expression of heritage. Don't be naïve. And don't be naïve or disingenuous about the origins of the Civil War. If slavery hadn't existed, the South would not have seceded and that war would not have been fought.
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When I say the "stars and bar" or the CBF I mean the thing that's on top of the General Lee that got chased by Roscoe P. Coltrane. If I'm mistaken that the CBF is referred to as the "stars and bars", then I appreciate your clarification. But I've heard it called that my entire life.
I understand the ignorant may call it that. But the name has a long history associated with a specific flag, and it is not the CBF.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stars-and-Bars (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stars-and-Bars)
The Confederate Battle Flag is often refered to as the Southern Cross.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/flag-of-the-Confederate-States-of-America (https://www.britannica.com/topic/flag-of-the-Confederate-States-of-America)
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The stars and bars (the CBF) . . .
They are two separate flags.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#First_flag:_the_"Stars_and_Bars"_(1861%E2%80%931863)
And, actually, there were multiple CBFs.
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It's like Suppressed says. He displays a confederate banner other than the CBF on his computer and no one bothers him about it. The CBF has been hijacked by bad people with bad agendas. So while you may display it to honor "heritage", others see it as a symbol of abiding racism. That's why I say put the stupid thing away - unless your intent is to embrace the identity politics it has come to represent.
And I say, don't simply acquiesce to hijackings -- that is like paying off blackmail or negotiating with terrorists. Where does it end, if you let the hijackers win?
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That's why I say put the stupid thing away - unless your intent is to embrace the identity politics it has come to represent.
Well you come on down here and make us put the 'stupid thing' away pal.
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Well you come on down here and make us put the 'stupid thing' away pal.
I know, I know, everything's about you and your big bad gun. Just how small is your penis? *****rollingeyes*****
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I understand the ignorant may call it that. But the name has a long history associated with a specific flag, and it is not the CBF.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stars-and-Bars (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Stars-and-Bars)
The Confederate Battle Flag is often refered to as the Southern Cross.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/flag-of-the-Confederate-States-of-America (https://www.britannica.com/topic/flag-of-the-Confederate-States-of-America)
I appreciate the links and the history, thackney. It's always good to learn something I didn't know before.
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I know, I know, everything's about you and your big bad gun. Just how small is your penis?
I didn't say shit about a gun.
But it's very telling that you have my penis on your mind.
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And I say, don't simply acquiesce to hijackings -- that is like paying off blackmail or negotiating with terrorists. Where does it end, if you let the hijackers win?
I understand, Suppressed. What was benign a generation ago has been co-opted by the tribes who define their identity in terms of demonizing others. The KKK and the hard left are both scumbags.
That's why I liked your idea of expressing pride in your heritage without resort to symbols that polarize. We can't easily change the world for the better. But we can easily avoid doing things that make it worse.
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I appreciate the links and the history, thackney. It's always good to learn something I didn't know before.
I made the same mistake myself, prior to my southern residence.
Cheers!
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. And don't be naïve or disingenuous about the origins of the Civil War. If slavery hadn't existed, the South would not have seceded and that war would not have been fought.
@Jazzhead
It's not MY fault you are an ignorant fool. That was your decision to make,and you made it.
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I understand, Suppressed. What was benign a generation ago has been co-opted by the tribes who define their identity in terms of demonizing others. The KKK and the hard left are both scumbags.
That's why I liked your idea of expressing pride in your heritage without resort to symbols that polarize. We can't easily change the world for the better. But we can easily avoid doing things that make it worse.
@Jazzhead, I'm glad you liked that idea...but perhaps I'm going against my own principles out of expediency of needing a paycheck. I believe that it's wrong to give up on that symbol, letting those who've distorted it to be able to co-opt it forever.
When it comes to something like "homophobia," do you just say, "oh, well...co-opted by the homophobics...let's not fight for rights of homosexuals..."? No, I think you say, "education is the key; convincing people they are wrong is important. You do know the importance of fighting for principles, even when there's strong opposition and your opinion might be divisive.
If the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is (wrongly) divisive, then let's fight against the KKK and leftists, not just give in to them.
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@Jazzhead, I'm glad you liked that idea...but perhaps I'm going against my own principles out of expediency of needing a paycheck. I believe that it's wrong to give up on that symbol, letting those who've distorted it to be able to co-opt it forever.
When it comes to something like "homophobia," do you just say, "oh, well...co-opted by the homophobics...let's not fight for rights of homosexuals..."? No, I think you say, "education is the key; convincing people they are wrong is important. You do know the importance of fighting for principles, even when there's strong opposition and your opinion might be divisive.
If the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is (wrongly) divisive, then let's fight against the KKK and leftists, not just give in to them.
I can't argue with any of that, Suppressed. As well as the reality you acknowledge that some hills are appropriate to die on, others, not so much.
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I didn't say shit about a gun.
But it's very telling that you have my penis on your mind.
:silly:
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It's not MY fault you are an ignorant fool. That was your decision to make,and you made it.
Oh, stop with the name calling and try a little persuasion, SP.
So it's your view that the Civil War would have occurred had slavery not existed? Go ahead and make that argument - I'm interested in hearing it. I acknowledge the tension between the industrialized North and the agrarian South - but that tension existed in large part because the South's labor supply was conscripted in a way the rest of the world found morally abhorrent. Do you predict a civil war occurring in today's American midwest because the great agribusinesses are pushing out family farmers?
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:silly:
Yeah, I'll admit it was a good one.
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(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41friKLscUL._SX355_.jpg)
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Oh, stop with the name calling and try a little persuasion, SP.
So it's your view that the Civil War would have occurred had slavery not existed?
DUHHH!
Go ahead and make that argument
I don't have to. No less an authority than a guy named Abraham Lincoln made that case before the war began.
- I'm interested in hearing it.
No,you're not,or I wouldn't have had to mention it 3 or 4 times. You would have looked it up after the first mention if you were really interested.
I acknowledge the tension between the industrialized North and the agrarian South - but that tension existed in large part because the South's labor supply was conscripted in a way the rest of the world found morally abhorrent.
Send you to school,teach you to read and reason,and you still can't learn a damn thing. Just how much longer do you think slavery could have existed as an economical machine after the Cotton Gin came out. Do you REALLY think that wealthy cotton farmers in the south never asked themselves "Is there a better way to do this work that will maximize my profits while eliminating the colossal headache of having to master slaves while taking care of their food,water,housing,and medical care?"
PART of the "outrage" from the north was related to northern industrialists looking for cheap labor due to the poor white immigrants from Europe coming in getting tired of living conditions worse than European peasants while working 12 hour days 6 days a week for poverty wages and who had started forming unions and demanding better pay,better living conditions,and shorter hours. Who better to replace them than ignorant slaves that had no clue about the value of a dollar that you could pay poverty wages while cheating and robbing them blind.
Also,need I remind you of the race riots in NYC due to whites being drafted to fight for blacks while blacks weren't required to fight? Every hear about new male immigrants on Ellis Island being told they wouldn't be allowed to enter the US unless they agreed to enlist in the Union Army,and who spent their first few days in America getting issued weapons,uniforms,and being taught to drill?
Or the fact that none other than General,later President,U.S. Grant owned slaves that he didn't free until after the war because NOBODY IN THE NORTH THAT OWNED SLAVES WERE ORDERED TO FREE THEM?
Or that "Mr.Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation "that freed the slaves,praise de lawd!" ONLY applied to slaves living in the Confederacy,where he had no dominion?
Do you predict a civil war occurring in today's American midwest because the great agribusinesses are pushing out family farmers?
No,the reality is there is no such critter as family farms anymore,other than small "hobby farms". They are now all incorporated,and the biggest ones are owned/controlled by people who have never worked on a farm a single day in their lives,as well as stockholders. Agribusiness is a serious player in the stock market,and even small farming corporations where all the stock is owned by the board members (usually small ones that used to be called "family farms" ) are corproations because of the tax breaks and other special perks.
For example,one local farmer around here that owns and operates what used to be called a family farm was running for a county commissioner office a couple of years ago,campaigning on
a "I'm a working man on a farm platform and can identify with your problems" platform. He had to drop out when it was revealed he was pulling in around 3 million a year from the government for acreage he had in the land bank and the timber bank. In short,he was being paid 3 million bucks a year by the taxpayers to NOT farm.
Yeah,you hear a lot of farmers complaining about welfare parasites,but just watch their eyes spin around in their heads when you tell them they are welfare kings being paid millions to not work by the feral government,so they were even worse.
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I acknowledge the tension between the industrialized North and the agrarian South - but that tension existed in large part because the South's labor supply was conscripted in a way the rest of the world found morally abhorrent.
@Jazzhead
There are others here who know the economics of the time better than I, but I think there were definitely additional economic issues that might very well have pushed toward a secession...and as we know, the tyrant Lincoln couldn't allow freedom of association or dissociation, so he might have ordered states to invade one another anyway. But would many respond if not for abolition being an issue? Probably not.
We might have seen a peaceful separation.
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@Jazzhead
But would many respond if not for abolition being an issue? Probably not.
.
@Suppressed
See my replies above to Jazzman about the draft riots in NYC and how the feral government illegally forced immigrants to the US to enlist in the Union Army as a condition to be allowed to set foot in America.
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Just how much longer do you think slavery could have existed as an economical machine after the Cotton Gin came out. Do you REALLY think that wealthy cotton farmers in the south never asked themselves "Is there a better way to do this work that will maximize my profits while eliminating the colossal headache of having to master slaves while taking care of their food,water,housing,and medical care?"
Huh?
The cotton gin was invented in the 18th century, and it's what made slavery BOOM! Slaves were needed to cultivate the vast amounts of cotton that the cotton gin could process.
Methinks you've got things a bit backwards, while you're insulting others over ignorance.
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See my replies above to Jazzman about the draft riots in NYC and how the feral government illegally forced immigrants to the US to enlist in the Union Army as a condition to be allowed to set foot in America.
@sneakypete
The most recent branch of my family tree to come to America arrived in the 1850s. One of several brothers from England who were in the Army only a few years after arriving. Obviously not a condition of arrival, but it sure provided opportunity to some new immigrants.
Still, I think that without slavery as an issue, Lincoln wouldn't have raised nearly as many troops. I'm pretty sure that some of my relatives who enlisted were going because of abolition -- they were very active in a abolitionist church. Others, I don't know.
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I appreciate the links and the history, thackney. It's always good to learn something I didn't know before.
And yet, with your florid ignorance, you opine about places and things you know nothing about. :pondering:
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I didn't say shit about a gun.
But it's very telling that you have my penis on your mind.
@INVAR
888high58888
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Huh?
The cotton gin was invented in the 18th century, and it's what made slavery BOOM! Slaves were needed to cultivate the vast amounts of cotton that the cotton gin could process.
Methinks you've got things a bit backwards, while you're insulting others over ignorance.
@Suppresed
Methinks
And that is where you started going wrong.
The Cotton Gin greatly reduced the number of workers/slaves needed to pick and process cotton. The first one was build around 1800,but the exact date is not nailed down.
Guess what was first built in 1812? The first tractor. Yeah,it was a steam-powered dangerous monstrosity,but a blind man could see where slavery was going. The first one was produced in 1812,and by 1839 a mobile tractor was on the market. VERY crude and under-powered by today's standards,but how many horses pulling plows would it take to plow as many furrows in one day as the steam-powered tractor? And you have to know that on the first day it hit the fields pulling a plow,people started trying to figure out how to make it plant crops,too.This was 22 years BEFORE the Civil War began.
Slavery was on the way out,and anybody that bothered to look could see it. Machines might cost more to buy than slaves,but they don't get sick and they don't need overseers,and you don't have to provide them with food,clothing,shelter,and medical care. Putting moral issues aside,it just didn't make financial sense to keep buying and working slaves once mechanical planters and pickers hit the fields. How many slaves do you think it would take to do the same amount of work in a 12 hour day in 1837 as a steam-powered tractor pulling a plow,followed by one pulling a planter?
Ever heard of a little company named John Deere? Formed in 1837 to make steel plow blades for farming,by 1853 the company was manufacturing a variety of farm equipment products in addition to plows, including wagons, corn planters, and cultivators. By 1912 they were making 4wd gasoline powered tractors,but they were by far not the first. As noted above,tractors started being manufactured and sold in 1837. Remind me again when The War of Northern Aggression began. While you are looking this up,look up what types of mechanical farm machinery was in production at that time.
Granted,small farmers couldn't afford tractors,Cotton Gins,planters,etc,etc,etc,but they couldn't afford slaves,either. I don't know how accurate this figure is,but I have read that a healthy young black male slave could sell for $3,000 in 1860 money. That was a HELL of a lot of money in 1860. In fact,there were already a lot of freed slaves in the south in 1860. Not that it benefited them much. For the most part they had no education or work experience that wasn't related to farm work,and being freed slaves they pretty much had to either head north or live close to where they had been slaves so they could be hired as seasonal workers when the crops needed to be planted or picked. Like with the poor whites at the time,it was pretty much a hand to mouth existence.
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@Jazzhead
There are others here who know the economics of the time better than I, but I think there were definitely additional economic issues that might very well have pushed toward a secession...and as we know, the tyrant Lincoln couldn't allow freedom of association or dissociation, so he might have ordered states to invade one another anyway. But would many respond if not for abolition being an issue? Probably not.
We might have seen a peaceful separation.
Since you quoted him (JH), I will respond with what another fellow who was around at the time had to say about what that war was about.
The war between the North and the South is a tariff war. The war is further, not for any principle, does not touch the question of slavery, and in fact turns on the Northern lust for sovereignty.
Karl Marx, 1861
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Slavery was on the way out,and anybody that bothered to look could see it. Machines might cost more to buy than slaves,but they don't get sick and they don't need overseers,and you don't have to provide them with food,clothing,shelter,and medical care. Putting moral issues aside,it just didn't make financial sense to keep buying and working slaves once mechanical planters and pickers hit the fields.
The Cornerstone Speech by Alexander Stephens would suggest otherwise.
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The Cotton Gin greatly reduced the number of workers/slaves needed to grow and process cotton.
:nometalk:
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And yet, with your florid ignorance, you opine about places and things you know nothing about. :pondering:
Gee, graciousness just isn't your thing.
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@sneakypete
Still, I think that without slavery as an issue, Lincoln wouldn't have raised nearly as many troops.
@Suppressed
He wouldn't have needed ANY more troops if he hadn't started the war.
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The Cornerstone Speech by Alexander Stephens would suggest otherwise.
@edpc
Anybody can claim anything,but that doesn't mean they were right. John Brown claimed moral outrage over slavery was cause for him to lead a slave rebellion that resulted in the massacres
of mostly white women and children. The husbands and fathers were out working when they hit the farm houses.
Are you going to claim the murder of innocents was justification because some insane preacher said it was?
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:nometalk:
@Suppressed
There is no known cure for a closed mind. You learned all this stuff while being indoctrinated in public skools,and nothing will ever change your mind.
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I know, I know, everything's about you and your big bad gun. Just how small is your penis? *****rollingeyes*****
888high58888
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@Suppressed
There is no known cure for a closed mind. You learned all this stuff while being indoctrinated in public skools,and nothing will ever change your mind.
**nononono*
Just going on history and the data and reality.
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/cotton-gin-patent (https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/cotton-gin-patent)
The Effects of the Cotton Gin
After the invention of the cotton gin, the yield of raw cotton doubled each decade after 1800. Demand was fueled by other inventions of the Industrial Revolution, such as the machines to spin and weave it and the steamboat to transport it. By midcentury America was growing three-quarters of the world's supply of cotton, most of it shipped to England or New England where it was manufactured into cloth. During this time tobacco fell in value, rice exports at best stayed steady, and sugar began to thrive, but only in Louisiana. At midcentury the South provided three-fifths of America's exports -- most of it in cotton.
However, like many inventors, Whitney (who died in 1825) could not have foreseen the ways in which his invention would change society for the worse. The most significant of these was the growth of slavery. While it was true that the cotton gin reduced the labor of removing seeds, it did not reduce the need for slaves to grow and pick the cotton. In fact, the opposite occurred. Cotton growing became so profitable for the planters that it greatly increased their demand for both land and slave labor. In 1790 there were six slave states; in 1860 there were 15. From 1790 until Congress banned the importation of slaves from Africa in 1808, Southerners imported 80,000 Africans. By 1860 approximately one in three Southerners was a slave.
Because of the cotton gin, slaves now labored on ever-larger plantations where work was more regimented and relentless. As large plantations spread into the Southwest, the price of slaves and land inhibited the growth of cities and industries. In the 1850s seven-eighths of all immigrants settled in the North, where they found 72% of the nation's manufacturing capacity. The growth of the "peculiar institution" was affecting many aspects of Southern life.
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@edpc
Anybody can claim anything,but that doesn't mean they were right. John Brown claimed moral outrage over slavery was cause for him to lead a slave rebellion that resulted in the massacres
of mostly white women and children. The husbands and fathers were out working when they hit the farm houses.
Are you going to claim the murder of innocents was justification because some insane preacher said it was?
Stephens wasn't just some dude. He was the VP of the confederacy, openly stating the natural state of blacks was to be inferior of whites. He was a literal white supremacist, declaring that philosophy to being an essential part of the confederate foundation. If the Civil War had a different outcome, they wouldn't have said, "Oh, well....nevermind. Y'all are free and can vote, too."
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Gee, graciousness just isn't your thing.
Like you got room to talk there buster.
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@Suppressed
He wouldn't have needed ANY more troops if he hadn't started the war.
The question was whether we'd have had a war if there hadn't been slavery. Are you arguing that the South wouldn't have seceded? Or that that Lincoln wouldn't have started the war when the South seceded without slavery?
I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery, but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.
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(http://i.imgur.com/SXK5Cc0.jpg)
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I guess one excuse is as good as another when you need to explain why you deserted instead of fought.
He did fight. Several battles. Then he stopped.
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I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery, but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.
Ahem..... Lincoln INVADED the South long before he made slavery a cassus belli to continue the war to force the South back into the Union.
When was the firing on Fort Sumpter and the First Battle of Manassas?
When was the Emancipation Proclamation given?
Slavery was just the excuse Lincoln used to continue to wage the war when he was losing support for it in the North.
Taxing the slaves and plantation owners at the behest of the industrial Northern states were the actions that led to the South Seceding.
The war itself was fought by Lincoln to return by force - the Southern states into a compact the federal government violated in the first place.
America has been an imperial power instead of a true republic ever since.
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Ahem..... Lincoln INVADED the South long before he made slavery a cassus belli to continue the war to force the South back into the Union.
When was the firing on Fort Sumpter and the First Battle of Manassas?
When was the Emancipation Proclamation given?
Slavery was just the excuse Lincoln used to continue to wage the war when he was losing support for it in the North.
Taxing the slaves and plantation owners at the behest of the industrial Northern states were the actions that led to the South Seceding.
The war itself was fought by Lincoln to return by force - the Southern states into a compact the federal government violated in the first place.
America has been an imperial power instead of a true republic ever since.
And THAT ladies and gentlemen is the unvarnished TRUTH of the matter!
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Ahem..... Lincoln INVADED the South long before he made slavery a cassus belli to continue the war to force the South back into the Union.
When was the firing on Fort Sumpter and the First Battle of Manassas?
When was the Emancipation Proclamation given?
Slavery was just the excuse Lincoln used to continue to wage the war when he was losing support for it in the North.
Taxing the slaves and plantation owners at the behest of the industrial Northern states were the actions that led to the South Seceding.
The war itself was fought by Lincoln to return by force - the Southern states into a compact the federal government violated in the first place.
America has been an imperial power instead of a true republic ever since.
But much of his support came from abolitionists even prior to the E.P.
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(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nbMUabXEsLQ/WSsL6J9PWcI/AAAAAAAAGAA/JUaW9HQGVU8nP2EffSHM2vnVNtQQyE0mwCLcB/s640/south%2B%25234.jpg)
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(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nbMUabXEsLQ/WSsL6J9PWcI/AAAAAAAAGAA/JUaW9HQGVU8nP2EffSHM2vnVNtQQyE0mwCLcB/s640/south%2B%25234.jpg)
Awww....bless your little heart...you tried to make a funny...
How cute. Keep practicing, son, and you might succeed someday!
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@catfish1957
Isn't that flag upside down? Star standing on its head?
Holy mackerel, you are right. The resident southern heritage defender gets docked 3 points. :whistle:
Need to proof my posting better.
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**nononono*
Just going on history and the data and reality.
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/cotton-gin-patent (https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/cotton-gin-patent)
@Suppressed
You use a government database to prove the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery? These are the same people that taught you that Lincoln freed the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation!
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Stephens wasn't just some dude. He was the VP of the confederacy, openly stating the natural state of blacks was to be inferior of whites. He was a literal white supremacist, declaring that philosophy to being an essential part of the confederate foundation. If the Civil War had a different outcome, they wouldn't have said, "Oh, well....nevermind. Y'all are free and can vote, too."
@edpc
So,are you trying to claim he would have insisted everybody keep slaves as pets after it became economically impossible to keep them as slaves?
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@Suppressed
You use a government database to prove the War of Northern Aggression was about slavery? These are the same people that taught you that Lincoln freed the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation!
The numbers are real. Show me they aren't.
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@edpc So,are you trying to claim he would have insisted everybody keep slaves as pets after it became economically impossible to keep them as slaves?
In perpetual servitude of some kind - yes.
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The question was whether we'd have had a war if there hadn't been slavery.
The answer is "Yes". The war was all about the northern banks and industrialists desire to steal land and resources from the south. "Reconstruction" was the biggest criminal act of the 19th Century. The north came in as an army of occupation and installed yankee politicians in positions of power from the local courthouse to the state governments. The new sheriffs and judges declared all loans due immediately to avoid foreclosure by taking the notices on the courthouse doors,knowing full well that soldiers who hadn't been paid in months and who had been away from home for years had no money,and most of them weren't even home yet. As a result the carpetbaggers were seizing valuable property for just a few dollars because no one else was allowed to bid.
The same with existing businesses. Local businessmen woke up one day and discovered they had new partners whose only contribution was to have their hands out and a promise to keep the sheriff from shutting them down.
IIRC,this was when the Rockefeller family bought up Colonial Williamsburg for back taxes.
The feral government was behind this 100 percent because they wanted to dominate without question.
Are you arguing that the South wouldn't have seceded?
Based on what? That's a pretty open-ended question.
Or that that Lincoln wouldn't have started the war when the South seceded without slavery?
When did the south secede without slavery? You are not making any sense.
I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery,
Probably. The northern bankers were intent on financially raping the south and taking over control of the nations wealth,and the feral government was determined to make everyone their slaves.
but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.
Naw,they had the norther banks,the newspapers,and the force of the feral government behind them. They would have came up with something if they had to create the issue themselves. Lincoln never wanted the war,but he seemed to be one of the few that didn't.
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But much of his support came from abolitionists even prior to the E.P.
@Suppressed
If you define support as a propaganda source you can utilize to sell a lie,I guess they were a big help. If no such source existed and slavery didn't even exist,the north would have found some other excuse to start the war.
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The numbers are real. Show me they aren't.
@Suppressed
ROFLMAO! Ever heard the expression "People figure and numbers lie"?
Just look at how much trouble we have today in a world full of computers to even get our politicians to agree on budget numbers.
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In perpetual servitude of some kind - yes.
@edpc
Ok,if that is what you think,that is what you think. That situation never developed,so we will never know if it would have happened or not.
Personally,I don't see it. It would have bankrupted too many people,but who really knows the details of how something that never happened would have been done?
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@Suppresed
And that is where you started going wrong.
The Cotton Gin greatly reduced the number of workers/slaves needed to pick and process cotton. The first one was build around 1800,but the exact date is not nailed down.
Guess what was first built in 1812? The first tractor. Yeah,it was a steam-powered dangerous monstrosity,but a blind man could see where slavery was going. The first one was produced in 1812,and by 1839 a mobile tractor was on the market. VERY crude and under-powered by today's standards,but how many horses pulling plows would it take to plow as many furrows in one day as the steam-powered tractor? And you have to know that on the first day it hit the fields pulling a plow,people started trying to figure out how to make it plant crops,too.This was 22 years BEFORE the Civil War began.
Slavery was on the way out,and anybody that bothered to look could see it. Machines might cost more to buy than slaves,but they don't get sick and they don't need overseers,and you don't have to provide them with food,clothing,shelter,and medical care. Putting moral issues aside,it just didn't make financial sense to keep buying and working slaves once mechanical planters and pickers hit the fields. How many slaves do you think it would take to do the same amount of work in a 12 hour day in 1837 as a steam-powered tractor pulling a plow,followed by one pulling a planter?
Ever heard of a little company named John Deere? Formed in 1837 to make steel plow blades for farming,by 1853 the company was manufacturing a variety of farm equipment products in addition to plows, including wagons, corn planters, and cultivators. By 1912 they were making 4wd gasoline powered tractors,but they were by far not the first. As noted above,tractors started being manufactured and sold in 1837. Remind me again when The War of Northern Aggression began. While you are looking this up,look up what types of mechanical farm machinery was in production at that time.
Granted,small farmers couldn't afford tractors,Cotton Gins,planters,etc,etc,etc,but they couldn't afford slaves,either. I don't know how accurate this figure is,but I have read that a healthy young black male slave could sell for $3,000 in 1860 money. That was a HELL of a lot of money in 1860. In fact,there were already a lot of freed slaves in the south in 1860. Not that it benefited them much. For the most part they had no education or work experience that wasn't related to farm work,and being freed slaves they pretty much had to either head north or live close to where they had been slaves so they could be hired as seasonal workers when the crops needed to be planted or picked. Like with the poor whites at the time,it was pretty much a hand to mouth existence.
@sneakypete
Yep. Especially the parts in bold. Manumission (freeing slaves) was on the upswing in Maryland just prior to the invasion, partly because the types of crops had changed. While tobacco continued to be grown there until the "Tobacco Lawsuit/Settlement"--and still is by Amish who didn't sell out and promise to not grow tobacco again for a lump sum, the areas near Washington DC and Baltimore were shifting their emphasis to produce to sell in the cities (for even better money, and requiring a smaller labor force). The result, as you point out, is that people did the math, and set free the labor they formerly had to provide housing, food, clothing, and medical care for. Hire them back at wages, it was cheaper and there was no obligation to care for them if they could not work.
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The question was whether we'd have had a war if there hadn't been slavery. Are you arguing that the South wouldn't have seceded? Or that that Lincoln wouldn't have started the war when the South seceded without slavery?
I'm suggesting that the South might still have seceded without slavery, but there would have been a more difficult time for Lincoln to invade if there hadn't been slavery.
It gave the Union an eventual "moral" excuse to invade the South, and eventually carpetbag the means of production by taxing the burned out properties away from their owners*, provided the owners even survived the war.
Slavery was a convenient smokescreen for their economic motives, and it remains that smokescreen to this day. Had slavery been the seminal issue, why did Lincoln wait until 1863 to try to free the slaves in the South with a proclamation over an area over which he did not have authority? If this was such an issue, it should have been first and foremost, right from the git-go, and that attempt should have been the first shot of the war.
(*Back taxes were also used as an excuse to steal over ten million acres from my wife's people, too. Great system to steal land with. Not so great if it is your land being stolen.)
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And THAT ladies and gentlemen is the unvarnished TRUTH of the matter!
@INVAR @Bigun Yep. Maryland was invaded first by units from the armies of PA and MA, at Lincoln's behest, which ignited the Pratt Street Riots in Baltimore and resulted in the first casualties of the war.
(As an aside, "Militia" meant "army" in those days, and every State had one. The MD Governor was in cahoots with Lincoln and refused to call out the MD Militia, instead having told them to place their gear in the armories, where it was seized.)
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@edpc
Ok,if that is what you think,that is what you think. That situation never developed,so we will never know if it would have happened or not.
Personally,I don't see it. It would have bankrupted too many people,but who really knows the details of how something that never happened would have been done?
Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.
oh, wait....
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Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.
oh, wait....
Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide. Interesting.....
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Yeah, we would have ended up with a system where people provided food, housing, clothing, and medical care to people who did not work. Gee, that would be a mess.
oh, wait....
@Smokin Joe
Exactly- the new plantation -the federal government.
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Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide. Interesting.....
European immigrants were the death knell for slavery. I recall reading where slaves were not put in the holds of ships while stacking cargo because they represented too great an investment. Someone working for wages could be replaced far cheaper if the hogshead of tobacco rolled on them.
The idea of paying wages and letting people fend for their own provender from those wages was coming, and though it may have taken a few decades, slavery was on its way out.
The same concepts led to such ideas as the Company Store and Company Housing. All the labor, none of the initial investment, and little expense (the money came back to the Company), but that tended to be a more northern thing.
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@Smokin Joe
Exactly- the new plantation -the federal government.
It has become that. Spoils of war and all that.
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@sneakypete
Yep. Especially the parts in bold. Manumission (freeing slaves) was on the upswing in Maryland just prior to the invasion, partly because the types of crops had changed. While tobacco continued to be grown there until the "Tobacco Lawsuit/Settlement"--and still is by Amish who didn't sell out and promise to not grow tobacco again for a lump sum, the areas near Washington DC and Baltimore were shifting their emphasis to produce to sell in the cities (for even better money, and requiring a smaller labor force). The result, as you point out, is that people did the math, and set free the labor they formerly had to provide housing, food, clothing, and medical care for. Hire them back at wages, it was cheaper and there was no obligation to care for them if they could not work.
Exactly. It wasn't the cotton gin of the 18th century that did it.
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Exactly. It wasn't the cotton gin of the 18th century that did it.
Well, that was just one state. Cotton wasn't king in MD, tobacco was. There has never been a machine devised to harvest tobacco, it's all stoop labor. Been there, done that, and made good money doing it (7 bucks an hour in 1974). But ultimately, with the influx of cheap white folks working for wages, ownership was going the way of the dodo.
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:th_10444:
Which leaves them dependent on a master to provide. Interesting.....
@edpc
And the circle is closed.